Possible Kearns/Westbrook Swap

Reds interim GM Brad Kullman certainly seems more open-minded than his predecessor, Dan O'Brien.  But one of O'Brien's final non-moves may have been one of his few wise ones.  Sheldon Ocker's Beacon Journal article today reports that O'Brien turned down an Austin Kearns for Jake Westbrook all-Ohio trade prior to his firing.

Such a one for one trade would lean heavily towards the Indians, in my opinion.  Here's my reasoning.

The 25 year-old Kearns has yet to reach his potential, while Westbrook has topped out at age 28.  Let's look at 2005.  In just 387 at-bats, Kearns was worth 3.6 wins.  Westbrook was worth 3.8, but that was in a full season.  Kullman has said that Kearns stands to get 550 ABs in 2006.  If Kearns could maintain his .240/.333/.452 line and his defense over that many at-bats, he'd be a 5.1 win right fielder.  That kind of production could make him the 8th best RF in the game, and I'm assuming no improvement.

However, it stands to reason that Kearns will indeed improve given the full-time job in '06.  My projection has him hitting .257 with 22 HR and 83 RBI in 486 at-bats this season.  PECOTA sees an even bigger jump, to .275/.367/.510 in 459 plate appearances (21 HR).  Bill James weighs in with .270/.363/.497 in 392 ABs, and ZiPS went with .258/.349/.480 in 431 ABs.  PECOTA lists Pat Burrell and Dale Murphy among his comps.  This is a player on the rise, and he makes $1.85MM.

Westbrook's ability lies somewhere between his 3.38 ERA in 2004 and his 4.49 ERA last year.  He's a solid 210 inning guy, and an extreme groundball pitcher.  Projections:

RotoAuthority: 3.98 ERA in 213 IP
PECOTA: 3.97 ERA in 199 IP
James: 3.91 ERA in 211 IP
ZiPS:  4.02 ERA in 195 IP

Wow.  That's as close to a consensus as four projection systems can get.  But here's the rub.  In 2005, the Indians had the 3rd best defense in baseball.  The Reds had the 3rd worst.  Kullman might think he needs groundball pitchers to succeed in a park that inflates HRs by 16%, but that won't work with a crappy defense.  Westbrook does keep the ball in the park, but that's only half the battle.  The Reds need a guy who also misses bats.  Westbrook's $4.25MM salary for 2006 and $5.6MM option for '07 are quite reasonable, however.

Some fine alternatives for the Reds would've been Josh Beckett and Esteban Loaiza.  While neither would've come cheaply, both are built to succeed in Great American Ballpark.  Out of possible remaining trade candidates, I think Matt Clement and Brad Penny could prosper as Reds.  If the Dodgers were to send Jayson Werth elsewhere, it could open up some room for Kearns.  The Red Sox would do well to groom a replacement for Trot Nixon.

Should the Indians add Kearns and Marte for Westbrook and Crisp this offseason, they'll have improved their team while also making it younger and cheaper, a rare feat.  What's more, a Millwood-esque signing of Jeff Weaver could keep the starting rotation five-deep with 200 inning guys, a model perfected by the White Sox.         

Comments

[Blue]

Kearns for Westbrook would be a terrible one for one trade for the Reds. Kearns put up a an OPS of .851 after being recalled from his AAA wake-up call. Westbrook MIGHT be an improvement over some of last year's pitchers, but Kearns is getting his first chance to play every day, and will be worth a lot more than Westbrook by midseason.

[Matt]

I'm a White Sox fan while I don't get emotional with what the Twins, Indians, and everyone in the divison does, I still pay attention to it. I guess my question regarding the Indians is are they trying to put the best team out there for 06 to compete with the Sox or are they looking ahead to 07 and beyond? I disagree with Blue a little bit on this trade. I think long term it definitely favors Cleveland but just in terms of this year, I'm not sure where Kearns fits in with the Indians and how much he contributes. I assume Jason Michaels is going to take Crisp's spot so that works out fine, but does Kearns play right and Blake ride the bench? Same deal with the Red Sox, Phillies, Indians trade. Long term I love what it does for Cleveland, but for this year it seems that losing Rhodes and gaining Marte and Shoppach who may or may not play this year. If they trade Westbrook at least to me the Indians pitching staff as a whole is incredibly weaker than it was last year. They lost Millwood, Lee is coming off of surgery, and then to trade Westbrook seems to really take away depth. Sorry I'm just not sold on Byrd or Johnson to step in and take the spots of Millwood and Westbrook. The other thing is it seems like the Indian bullpen is weaker too. I'm not a huge fan of Guillermo Mota, or Wickman. Other than Betancourt and Cabrera, I'm not sure what else the Tribe have in their bullpen. I might be overstepping my boundaries here cause I'm a White Sox fan, not an Indians fan, but it just seems strange to me that a team I thought was the 2nd best in the American League last year to the White Sox (and wasnt that far behind them) looks to be looking more towards 07 and beyond and not this year at least with a couple of their offseason moves, this one included if it goes down.

[Bdid]

Hey Monger, Any news on Zito? I've been hearing that he could be dealt in the next couple of weeks. Of course that is all from bloggers on the net, but just checking!

[Cubs4ever]

i heard zito wants to go to the cubs says they have the best chance for him to get a ring. hendry is talking about possible trades with them right now, I guess the A's like Rich Hill alot

[JMan]

Where did you hear that Zito wants to go to the CUbs?

Anyone have an idea of how the Reds view Adam Dunn? Do they want to keep him long-term or do they see him as potential trade bait for some pitching?

[steven]

the thing about kearns is he still is a gamble. in the majors he .240 and .230 the last two years respectively. i know all his other numbers obp and ops etc are highly desirable but players like bellhorn and patterson have shown you cannot survive on these stats if you cannot at least bat for a respectable average. if he does improve his average somewhat he will be a nice player for someone but you have to think its entirely possible he never quite gets over that hump.

[xxx]

"i heard zito wants to go to the cubs says they have the best chance for him to get a ring."

So when does that new Cubs site start again? Not soon enough for me if it means the end of baseless Cubs homer talk...

[Darin]

steven:

you might want to actually check Patterson's OBP and compare it to Kearns, there seems to be a difference....a pretty big difference. It was almost like Patterson refused to get on base.

As far as a Cubs fan saying that Zito wants to go to Chicago to get a ring....that's absurb. Even if they did get Zito, they'd still have alot of questions. And if all it took was Rich Hill, and a prospect or two, Zito would have already been gone. Let's atleast try to have some sort of objective thinking on this site.

[JMan]

Well according to Rotoworld via Red.mlb.com the Kearns rumors were again said to be false by Brad Kullman.
I wonder if there have been trade discussions regarding other players.

[Ryan]

Blue: Kearns may, in the long run, be more valuable than Westbrook, but right now it would be fool-hardy of the Reds to pass up that trade, if it indeed was offered by the Indians. The Reds have a potent line-up--that's not an issue. They need durable starting pitchers who KEEP THE BALL DOWN. And that's exactly what Westbrook brings to the table. I don't think anyone considers him an ace, but he'd be a blessing in the Great American Ballpark.

Matt: The Indians are probably hoping to win this season, as all teams do, but I do agree that they may be conceding this season and trying to set themselves up for a run in '06. I think Byrd is a decent pitcher who can keep hitters off-balance (I think he'd give the White Sox hitters headaches with his unorthodox style and pitch selection), but Johnson is nothing special. They've realistically done the best they can do this off-season, and I think that, while they'll be competitive next year, I think they're a third place team (unless the Twins or Sox have some injury problems). I still like their bullpen, though. Wickman ain't the prettiest closer, but he gets the job done. Mota's arm problems would make me worry a little bit, but they have good depth despite losing Howry and giving up Rhodes and Riske.

[Ryan]

Didn't hear that about Zito, and I doubt he said it. Zito, despite reportedly being a little "out there" knows that he's best suited to stay in the AL West (well, not Arlington, but the other 3 parks are suited for him) or for Shea. Extreme flyball-pitchers' parks==very good for an extreme flyball pitcher like Barry Zito.

[Blue]

I think Kearns would supplant Blake in right, and the Indians would expect one of their young outfielders to be ready in 2007. If so, they could let Michaels walk.

I think the Reds would like to sign Dunn long term, but who knows if that is a possibility, given all the turmoil that has taken place. If they can't get him signed, I think they would consider moving him for pitching between midseason 2006 and midseason 2007.

BTW, I heard a rumor that the Cubs are going to be involved in a four way trade with the Yankees, Phillies, and Red Sox. The Cubs would recieve A-Rod, Bobby Abreu, and Jason Varitek. They would send Rich Hill to New York, an autographed photo of Ron Santo to the Phillies, and one of Dusty Baker's used toothpicks to Boston.

Just a rumor, though.

[Blue]

Its not like the Reds are going to challenge for the Central division if they pick up Westbrook. They might as well call up Justin Germano. And Kearns will be more valuable than Westbrook THIS YEAR, not just the long run. We'll see in a few months.

[junbun]

lol blue... are we really that bad?

[Ryan]

Blue: LOL on the rumor, although I heard we were getting Randy Johnson in that deal, too...I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Westbrook/Kearns, because I simply think that Westbrook, while not a world-shaker, is a good starter, which is the main thing the Reds need right now. Their offense will be just fine without Kearns (hell, it did fine with him in AAA and platooning last year); their pitching staff, without a couple of sinkerball pitchers, is in trouble.

As for Germano, if they were willing to concede defeat, it'd be a great idea to call up some good young pitching prospects, but I highly doubt the new Reds ownership wants to start its tenure as the new ownership by basically telling the fans they aren't going to compete for the division title this year. Most Reds fans probably know they're a 4th-5th place team as constructed this season, but it'd still be a rocky start to a new era.

[Blue]

I agree with most of that. My real problem is that trading Kearns right now would probably be selling low. Though Dunn is a superior player, the Reds would probably be better off trading him, as he is probably close to peak value.

[Cubsrule]

According to ESPN 1000's Bruce Levine the Chicago Cubs, Tampa Bay Devil Rays, and Oakland A's are very close to a 3 way deal that would send left hander Barry Zito and Julio Lugo to the Cubs. Rich Hill and a minor leaguer from Tampa to the A's. And Eric Patterson, and a prospect from the A's to the Devil Rays.

[Danny]

Sounds like a BS deal to me -- Beane would rather take the two draft picks.

[Cubsrule]

He would be getting Eric Patterson a top prospect and a top prospect from Tampas farm so how does that sound bs

[junbun]

rofl

is that a serious deal?

we get zito and lugo for hill and eric patterson? sign me up!!! haha...

[KH]

That new blog can't come soon enough...

[Jman]

I'm not saying I doubt Cubsrule but has anyone else heard this rumor via ESPN1000? I haven't seen it posted on any other boards. I hope it's true.

[23]

I'm a Cubs fan and a little embarrassed that threads unrelated to any Cubs player turn into 90% Cubs talk. Perhaps a new thread to talk about the pipe dream of two prospects plus other prospects for two stud major leaguers is in order.

[Darin]

I said it before, if all it took was Rich Hill an a prospect or two to get Zito, 25 other teams would have already made a deal.

So in the spirit of all Cubs fans I will turn "Ultra Homer" (I may end up committing suicide over this) for this next joke:

I heard on the FoxSports SW local report the Astros are in talks right now with the A's where they would give up Zeke Astacio (a higher rated prospect than Rich hill) and Josh Anderson and get Barry Zito in return. The worst part of it for the Cubs is that after Clemens returns to the Stros in May, Zito would be the Astros #4 pitcher, right in front of Brandon Backe, who was last seen throwing 7 shut out innings against the White Sox in the WORLD SERIES. Yep the same World Series that the Cubs did not participate in.

[Darin]

I also forgot to add that the Rays (getting an early start on removing the Devil from the name) wanted to get involved and make it a three team trade with Julio Lugo as their piece in the puzzle but the Astros said they didn't want "that wife beater" back. They'd rather stick with the worst offensive short stop in the game than take a "wife beater" back into the clubhouse.

[23]

Wow, isn't it sad that with all that pitching (now adding Zito, of course) that the Stros still can't score enough runs to win it all? Or beat the Cubs in their season series, for that matter.

Having said that, Darin, you're right. No shot at Zito for Rich Hill.

[Bdid]

So what you people are saying is that there is no new info on Zito...just a bunch of garbage?

[Darin]

Bdid

If something comes from a Cubs fan's mouth about trade activity with the Cub's yes it's probably garbage.

[23]

Bdid,
If ESPN 1000 had actually reported that a deal was "very close," we would have heard that same information reported from at least one or two other reputable sources. That just hasn't happened. So I can't believe it's legit.

[23]

"Inside Bay Area" columnist Dave Del Grande quote: "I'd trade Duchscherer right now in a quantity-for-quality deal — package him with Jason Kendall and go after Ivan Rodriguez."

Everyone in Oakland seems to be talking about keeping Zito at the head of the rotation and using surplus pitching (like Duchscherer) to fill other needs. The talk is generally that it would take a mind-blowing deal to get Zito, not a few prospects.

[2cndbager]

That was quicker than I expected. Only three posted comments until someone had to bring up the Flubs. And no one wants to go to the cubs, that's where players go to end their carreers.

[Cubsrule]

I heard it today im not lying

[_sturt_]

Darin, are you sure you heard what you thought you heard???

Zito for Astacio and Anderson?

You sure that there wasn't a third player in that? I just can't see Beane leaving it at those two.

[_sturt_]

cubsrule, there is only one TBay minor leaguer who could get that trade done, and that would be Delmon Young, the crown prince of minor league baseball at the moment.

I never say never, but I do say, "I'll wait to see."

[CubsDynastyStartsNow]

Zito to the Mets for Heilman, Maine and Milledge. I guess it's game over for us in the Cubbie Blew!

[Ryan]

2ndbager: Okay, I'm finally gonna bite on this one. The "flubs?" That's the witty insult that you can come up with? Sorry, I've seen a few other Cubs bashers attempt to degrade the team, and I just have to say that that is the lamest attempt at mocking someone that I've ever seen. I mean, if you want to make fun of the Cubs, at least come up with a better insult than "flub." Lame...

Darin: That's not exactly a fair statement to make. Their are very many intelligent Cubs fans. Just because there are a few too many on this board who are homerish to the point that it bothers us realistic Cubs fans doesn't mean that all Cubs fans are stupid or misinformed. There's an awful lot of Astro's homers out there, too, dreaming of turning Wandy Rodriguez and Adam Everett into Miguel Tejada...

Getting back to the topic of this thread...

Blue: Dunn is at a high value, but I don't think he's necessarily "peaked." He's going to be a 40+ HR threat every year he's healthy. I do agree that you can get a lot more for him than for Kearns at this point, though. If you don't want to trade Kearns because his value is low right now (which is true), I can understand that. The only problem is that if he gets injured again this year, or has a falling out with management, his value could drop.

[Matt]

I havent heard anything about a Zito or Lugo to the Cubs and maybe it's just me but it would seem to me Oakland would want a little more in return than Rich Hill for Zito. I think whoever posted that Zito and Lugo to the Cubs was very close is just a wishful thinking Cub fan. Last we heard on the Cubs was that they were basically done dealing. Hendry stated it and while he could be bluffing. All 3 papers said the same as well as Rumor so I just dont believe anything when it comes to these rumors. Oh yeah to the guy who said Barry Zito wants to go to the Cubs because he has the best chance to win a ring there. Either one of two things has to be true then. Barry Zito is incredibly stupid if he thinks that way or you're full of you know what. If Zito is so worried about winning a ring this year then his best chance would be to stay with Oakland for this year, pitch great, win a world series and cash out big time next offseason as an FA. All the teams in the Zito derby, not the Mets, Cubs or any of them have a decent chance to win a world series when compared to the A's. Also even if the Cubs do get Zito, you have to realize they wouldnt even be the favorites in their own division. While the Cubs would clearly on paper be better than Houston and Milwaukee, I'll still give the Cards the edge even if Zito is in Cub pinstripes. Plus you know Dusty will find some way to screw everything up even if by some miracle the Cubs do jump out to a lead. But again in my opinion this Zito and Lugo are close to going to the Cubs I think is a bunch a crap but who knows for sure

[Matt]

Yeah I agree the new blog cant come soon enough. I dont mind alot of Cub fans, but the ones that have them in the WS no matter what or come up with these ridiculous rumors. TO whoever said Zito would be traded to the Cubs for Eric Patterson and a prospect. If you're gonna flat out lie at least make it believeable and have Hill going to Oakland with maybe Pie or Guzman or someone like that. One post you state you hear how much Oak loves Hill, another you say a trade is close where they dont get him but Tampa does? Come on man I originally had posted something on the Indians which this blog was about to start. I left the house for 9 hrs and left my computer on this page. I just read all the blogs and forgot originally this was an Indians blog, not a Cubs one. Never coulda guessed it.

[steven]

darin

i know patterson doesnt get on base which always made me wonder even more when the cubs continually tried to shove him atop their lineup. i realize from the way i posted you could think i meant that though. what i was more pointing towards were the two most recent example of players with lots of other tools who couldnt stay in the majors because when it came down to it their average was just that bad. obviously bellhorn is a much better analogy cause his numbers in the categories i mentioned sync up with the positives associateed with kearns. i threw in patterson in their as well based on some of the other skills he has but didnt really explain that i was talking about diff stats so i understand your question. also patterson would fit the mold of what i was talking about in a player that teams think highly of that never really gets it done in the majors. plus you might as well throw in the cubs references around since they are all here anyway.

[Darin]

_sturt_:
it was a joke, as far as I know the Astros aren't interested in Zito (Purpura and Co. are much more secretive about moves than most teams). I agree it would take more than just 2 prospects to get it done, unless your the Cubs, then it will just take Nefi Perez.

Ryan:
I can make Cubs jokes all night and all day. However, you seem intelligent and well articulated. So my question is....Why are you a Cubs fan? Also I believe Lidge or Lane usually was part of the Tejada trade....sometimes both. If you read the Astros boards, most people weren't expecting Tejada to get to Crawford St. anyway.

Steven:
What Cub's references can I throw in? If they are already there, no need for me to bag on the happless Cubs.

[Ryan]

Matt: While I don't have the Cubs in the WS, I like good banter, so I'll debate with you for the sake of intelligent debate:) The Cubs probably aren't going to make it, but did many people other than rabid Sox fans expect them to win the WS last year? Anything can happen (Cubs' chances are better if every other team gets struck with dysentery, of course...).

Darin: If you can, hopefully your jokes are better than "flubs." That's just lame. I like to think I'm intelligent and articulate, but plenty of us Cubs fans are. The over-zealousness of some of our fanbase shouldn't make people think we are all like that, because most of the Cubs fans I know are very intelligent baseball people.

[Ryan]

Matt: While I don't have the Cubs in the WS, I like good banter, so I'll debate with you for the sake of intelligent debate:) The Cubs probably aren't going to make it, but did many people other than rabid Sox fans expect them to win the WS last year? Anything can happen (Cubs' chances are better if every other team gets struck with dysentery, of course...).

Darin: If you can, hopefully your jokes are better than "flubs." That's just lame. I like to think I'm intelligent and articulate, but plenty of us Cubs fans are. The over-zealousness of some of our fanbase shouldn't make people think we are all like that, because most of the Cubs fans I know are very intelligent baseball people.

[Ryan]

Damn double post...

Darin: My point is that there were also some really unreasonable suggestions out there for Tejada, too. There's fans like that in every fandom, is all I'm saying.

[steven]

ryan

the white soxs also had a staff built on 200 inning pitchers. as far as i can tell the cubs have a staff built on 2 week pitchers.

[Ryan]

steven: And every pitcher on the Sox staff performed at a higher level than analysts, insiders, and the majority of baseball fans expected. 3 pitchers on their staff had career years, and Garcia, while not having the best year of his career, was reminiscent of the old Freddy Garcia. Hernandez was, well, Hernandez, but he did have a good win-loss record for the first half of the season.

Having a staff of 200-inning 4.5 ERA pitchers is a double-edged sword. Having great years (which, I definitely don't expect to see again from Garland, and I expect a worse year from Beurhle, but not as big of a drop-off as Garland) is what made them win--not solely the fact that they are 200-inning pitchers.

[23]

"2 week pitchers"

Steven,
Zambrano has the best ERA in the majors for a pitcher who's thrown as many innings as he has over the past 3 seasons. Prior's been unlucky with freak injuries. It's not unreasonable to think that they can both be 200+ innings starters this season, and as the Diamondback's proved a few years ago, if you have two studs, anything can happen. I'm not buying the Cubs getting injured all the time argument until I see how the first month goes. I like their chances.

[23]

"One post you state you hear how much Oak loves Hill, another you say a trade is close where they dont get him but Tampa does?"

Matt: In fairness, Cubsrule did say that his rumor had Hill going to the A's with another prospect from the Rays. Rays would get E. Pat and an A's prospect.

I feel silly keeping this discussion going. Can't see it happening this way at all, anyway. I'm out.

[Darin]

Ryan:
I have jokes, not great ones, but I do have some. The only problem with making jokes about the Cubs and/or their fans, even if harmless and in jest is not taken well on this site, which basically is a Cubs site. I'm not knocking the site in whole, I like hearing other fan's points of view, but if the views aren't about the Cubs then they are usually drowned out.

[Ryan]

Darin: Most of the comments I see made towards Cubs fans, IMO, aren't meant to be taken in jest. There are a lot of posts that are very rude. Also take into consideration all of the name-stealing and personal insults. I think it's more because of the comments of a few trolls that some good-natured ribbing is taken too seriously.

As for jokes, I have some good ones, but none that belong on this site:)

[Matt]

23 and cubsrule,
23 thanks for correcting me, cubsrule, my bad, I apologize for getting your rumor wrong. I guess it doesnt pay to try and read and type at 1 Am when you are sorta drunk but anyway, like 23 said, I really cant see that trade going down the way it has been proposed anyways but at least wanted to apologize to the one guy who I ripped (incorrectly) about his trade rumor

[steven]

23

i am well aware if any staff got as lucky as white soxs did with career years then they could have a chance at teh title and would rule out chicago having a chance that way. i have nothign against zambrano and think he is a great pitcher however im not buying the prior argument. its the same thing they were saying last year. how did that work out again?

[IShouldNotPostRidiculousIdeasAgain]

Hey
I just heard from an extremely reliable source that a deal is imminent. The Cubs will get Albert Pujols from the Cardinals in exchange for promising pitche r Roberto Novoa. Of course, the Cards will pay for all of Pujols' salary and provide the Cubs with their own souvenir stand in New Busch Stadium. Novoa is projected by Cubs fans to post a 0.50 ERA and a 0.60 WHIP in 162 relief apperances (180 IP). He is also slated to get approximately 250Ks. Pujols, on the other hand, is in the decline as seen by his sucky past two seasons. This is a great deal for the Cubs, despite the fact they lose such a tremendous talent. This is the year the CUBS finally win it all. Props to Walt Jocketty, for getting rid of that clubhouse menace and chronic underachiever Pujols, and not only that, but also getting the league's premier talent. They just started talking about a Chris Carpenter and Jason Isringhausen deal for a case of dignity and some rational thought.

[junbun]

hey look over there.. its a dead horse!

[23]

"im not buying the prior argument. its the same thing they were saying last year. how did that work out again?"

Steven: How did that work out? Um... line drive off the elbow--hairline fracture. Like I said, a freak injury. Prior is the real deal, and barring any other weird collisions, ricochets, or voodoo hexes, I believe you'll see another year like his full rookie season. Nothing's guaranteed. We'll just wait and see.

[SuperNovoa]

I don't know who your source is, Mr. IShouldNotPostRidiculousIdeasAgain, but I'm not buying it. I'm pretty sure the Cards are not trading Pujols within the division, no matter how far he's fallen. I also don't expect to see the Cubs move Novoa unless they get a proven ace in return. I'm hearing he's the center piece in a deal that will finally net the Cubs Zito. Apparently Beane loves the kid and can't wait to get rid of Zito. Baryy will make a fine bullpen arm, unless he manages to break into our amazing rotation, which I doubt.

[Darin]

SuperNovoa:
He was joking......

Ryan:
I can't do anything about people stealing names or what not. However, I don't think I've been over the top when taking my jabs at the Cubbies and their legions of fans. I have taken their jabbings as well, and I don't take it personally or get upset.

[SuperNovoa]

Darin:
I was joking...

[Darin]

SuperNovoa:
yeah, I read it again, I get it........

[Randy]

Don't you guys know that all baseball players want to play for the cubs? Just ask any cub fan.

And the reason is because of their winning tradition.

By the way, ofcourse the cubs can get Zito and Lugo for 4 of their minor leaguers.

Because the cubs minor leaguers are always better than every other teams' - until they make it to the majors.

I'll never forget my most knowledgeable cub fan friend telling my 4 years ago that the cubs had 3 minor leaguers that were going to be SUPERSTARS - not stars but superstars, all 3 of them!

They were, in order of certainty: Bobby Hill, Corey Patterson and Hee Sop Choi.

It's just so....cubs.

[Ryan]

Darin: I'm not accusing you of stealing names, because you seem like an intelligent person who is just frustrated with some of the over-zealous Cubs fans (which, as a huge Cubs fan, I'm tired of as well). I'm just saying that I understand why some people around here take things so seriously.

Randy: No, neither Hill, nor Patterson, nor Choi have worked out, but at least we were able to get some good players back for them (Ramirez, Lofton, and Lee). On the other hand, I'd say that Zambrano and Prior have worked out pretty well, and, to a much lesser degree, Kerry Wood hasn't exactly been a cancer to the team, either. It'll be interesting to see how Cedeno pans out; I think he's gotten his act at the plate together, which means he could be the first Cubs position prospect in a long time to actually amount to something at the MLB level.

[Randy]

Ryan, the point is that the flubs dreamers aren't getting Zito and Lugo for their minor league crap.

Secondly, you're right. We can get a better name for the flubbies. I prefer a name that suits their history and that their fans would embrace like....The Ultimate Losers !

Ultimate Losers would look good across the front of their uniforms. As a Chicagoan, I've always been offended and insulted by their teams and felt that the entire organization is a disgrace to the great city of Chicago.

[Ryan]

Randy: Wow...I'm sorry to say that your response is typical of most Sox fans that I meet in person. They are so obsessed with the Cubs that they aren't really able to fully grasp the joys of their team winning the World Series. As a psychology major I understand how inferiority complexes work, and it's sad that some of my Chicago brethren suffer from an inferiority complex. Hope you get that worked out, though:)

[23]

Ryan, I'd like to buy you a beer.

[Randy]

Ryan, it's unfortunate that you don't have the intellect to follow your psychology class.

If you did, then you would know that in order for an inferiority complex to exist, there must be a reason to feel inferior.

Since, the White Sox have been superior to the flubs in every way, it is truly a case of quality vs. crap.

You choose to be a fan of crap, Ryan, and that is your right. But, you are wasting your time trying to convince any knowledeable baseabll fans that the flubs are any more than a joke.

I hope that you select a new major soon and for your sake a new favorite team.

[Flandy]

Chill out, Randy. Why do you hate the Cubs so much? Sure, your team just won the World Series... and nobody watched. Nobody cares about the WhiteSox, so you take it out on the more popular Chicago franchise. I get it, you're like the forgotten son. I don't know why those fans fill the stadium and support that team so much, but they do. They are among the most popular teams in baseball, and they haven't even won anything recently. Your Sox are the reigning MLB champs and they're still an afterthought. I guess that's enough to make you flip your lid.

[Ryan]

23: Make it a 'rita or a jack and coke, and I'm all for it.

Randy: Hmm...well, since I'm graduating at the end of this semester, and since I have a 4.0 GPA, I'm betting that I know a little more about psychology than you do. Just like I'm willing to bet I know more about baseball than you, since I still play it and I received a scholarship to play it. Obviously some people think I know enough about how to play the game, so your opinion, no offense, doesn't matter to me.

As for why you should feel inferior, you shouldn't! Your team won the freakin' World Series! You should be happy and not give a crap about the Cubs! But you obviously do care about the Cubs, since you complain about them and their fans constantly. The Cubs have been very popular for a long time. The Sox have not been able to generate the same degree of media attention, revenue, or fanfare as the Cubs. So, therefore, I feel that your inferiority complex, which most of my friends who are Sox fans have to some degree, is as a result of the Cubs being popular and the Sox, even upon winning a WS, not being popular. Either way, if you want to be taken as an intelligent baseball fan, there's two things you need to do first:

1)Don't disregard someone's acumen based on their personal preference. I'd have the same understanding of baseball and the same ability to pitch and play the game if I was a Sox fan, or a Royals fan, or an Astros fan as I do now. My personal preference has no bearing on my knowledge or ability.

2)Stop going out of your way to hate. You are probably an intelligent person, but you come across like a pre-pubescent boy with a lot of angst because he couldn't find a date to the prom. If you personally don't like the Cubs, fine, but I'm just letting you know that you kill your ability to make an intelligent argument by assuming that anything Cubs is bad or dumb and anything Sox is great or flawless.

Hope I've helped teach you today. If not, I still hope you have a nice day:)

[Darin]

Well no one's going to win this argument, as long as it only involves White Sox and Cubs fans. So as an outsider, and unbiased opinion, I kinda agree with Ryan, the Cubs are extremely popular, all over the country (well maybe not the East Coast - that belongs to the BoSox and Yankees), but they do have their own legions of fans, even though they continually fail to produce on a somewhat regular basis. They are rich with tradition and a holy grail for a stadium, and one of the 1st teams with their games nationally televised (on WGN).

That being said, The White Sox are making strides as far as national attention and could surpass the Cubs, and make them just an afterthought if the White Sox can rattle off 2 or 3 really great seasons (World Series or deep playoff appearances). The Cubs must get their act together and start competing on a regular basis, or I can see the balance swinging in the Sox's favor.

As far as trades or signings that need to be made, it's really simple. The Cubs should fire Hendry and hire/steal Williams.

[Randy]

Every flubs fan I've ever known uses one of these reasons for why he/she is a flubs fan:

1. My family/grandpa/Aunt Mary/whatever were flubs fans.

2. Well,they serve beer there and it's sunny.

3. Isn't everyone ?

Smart bunch of people. It's like saying"I go to this restaurant all the time and the food isn't too good and neither is the service and they overcharge but hey, I've always gone there and I can't change now." Dumb sheep.

[Ryan]

Randy: After posting this, I'm not going to make anymore posts justifying my reasoning for cheering for who I like, or questioning why you have such deep-rooted hatred against something that you can more easily ignore than complain about. Us arguing/debating is simply wasting board space. But, here goes:

I honestly don't care why every Cubs fan you know cheers for them. I don't care why any Sox fan cheers for the Sox, I don't care why any Angels fan cheers for the Angels. People have the right to cheer for any team they like. Supporting your team after you have become a fan does not make one a "dumb sheep." You could just as easily say that all of the Sox fans who never went to or watched a game until they dominated this year are bandwagon fans, or fair-weather fans. But I'm not going to do that, because I don't care at all who YOU root for. That's your business, and I'm smart enough and mature enough to accept that not everyone is going to agree with me. Doesn't make me any smarter than them, and doesn't make them any smarter than me.

The sad fact of the matter, however, is that you, in addition to a lot of Sox fans who have posted on this site, seem to harbor some deep-seated hatred, or jealousy, or resentment towards the Cubs and their fans. Simply put, that's very sad and borderline pathetic. You should be happy about the success of your team, not worried about going on verbal tirades about why you think the Cubs and all Cubs fans and anyone who ever wears a blue cap is a "sheep," or "stupid," or a "moron." That type of mentality has never once led to anything positive in the history of the world, and sadly, it never will.

I hope you learn to ignore the things that bother you, whatever the reason is, when they clearly do nothing to cause you physical, emotional, or financial harm. I hope you learn how to let go of these negative emotions and relax a little. Good luck.

[23]

Ryan: Okay, you've earned the upgrade to a margarita.

I happen to be one of those Cubs fans who was raised a Cubs fan but, more importantly, was raised a baseball fan. Straying from the team I loved as a child because of their win-loss record would be a disgraceful exhibition of disloyalty. Loyalty--along with character, team work, trust, and dedication--is one of the things that young men learn on a baseball diamond. Randy, sadly, has not learned any of these things because he has probably never played baseball. At least not the way my grandfather (a Cubs fan) taught me to play it.

[Randy]

No hard feelings guys.

I honestly wouldn't want the flubs and their fans to go away - then there would be no one left to make fun of.

[23]

Fair enough, Randy. Back at you and the Sux fans. Good luck with the zero-homer hitting left fielder, the old .207-hitting DH, the third baseman with the bad back, and the animal-sacrificing voodoo manager. Looks like another good season ahead for you.