Astros/White Sox Jon Garland Confusion

UPDATES AT BOTTOM.

Now this is a shocker.  The Houston Chronicle reports that the Astros are set to announce a trade for Jon Garland. The righty turned 27 in September.  He makes $10MM in '07 and $12MM in '08.

Jose De Jesus Ortiz mentions that the buzz is that Willy Taveras and Taylor Buchholz may be involved.

Can you believe it?  In two days Kenny Williams has sent away 40% of his rotation.  While I find the Garcia bounty reasonable, it doesn't seem to be the best possible return.  Same here, if it's really Buchholz/Taveras.

There will be all sorts of competition in spring as the Sox try to get younger in the rotation with Gavin Floyd, Brandon McCarthy, Taylor Buchholz, and Charlie Haeger.

UPDATES:  Ken Rosenthal reports that Jason Hirsh is in the deal too.  Ahhhh, MUCH better.  Kenny Williams says no deal is close, however.

Ken Davidoff of Newsday reports that the teams are leaving Orlando without a deal in place yet.

Jayson Stark notes that a Taveras/Buchholz package wouldn't cut it.

Jon Heyman at SI.com says the deal has fallen through because Buchholz failed his physical. 

Buchholz himself says he did not fail a physical, though.  He didn't even take one.  Jose de Jesus Ortiz of the Houston Chronicle says the talks have stalled or even died nonetheless.

Scott Miller of CBS Sportsline reports that the deal appears "more dead than alive."  Kenny Williams is disturbed by the way the media has handled this.  Williams tells MLB.com, "we've got nothing going on."

Comments

[sudansensation]

What is kenny williams doing?! Both og these trades have been awful for the white sox. If he wanted to get rid of garland, it should have been in a package deal of tejada, or michael young

[Why am I a Cubfan?]

Has KW lost his mind? I just don't get it. Although as I type this ESPN 1000 in Chicago is saying this deal will not happen. Let's see.

If Garland is on the block why don't the Cubs go after him. I'm sure they could do better then what Houston offered!

[beauhoopman]

this deal cannot be correct. if it is, kenny williams will never be able to show his face in chicago again. no way. no way.

[beauhoopman]

ESPN 1000 says no deal. i repeat, no deal.

[Darin]

I'd like to see who's actually involved and if the Sox pay part of Garland's salary before I call this a bad trade for the White Sox or great trade for the Astros...but right now it does look like the Sox didn't get much in return.

Am I the only one that thinks the White Sox are possibly dumping salaries?

[palehose35]

This better be no deal...

[NYs Maine Man]

Wow, if this is in fact true, and this deal went down, Kenny Williams was fleeced twice within 24 hours. I don't get how he would ONLY ask for Humber, Milledge, and Pelfrey from the Mets, but then ended up dealing these guys for mediocre middle relief pitchers, and a light hitting fast CF. Weeeeird.

[thegamev1]

If this is true, I guess this means Pettitte to the Yankees?

[Darin]

foxsports.com is saying that Jason Hirsh is included, which now makes me say, bad deal for the Astros.

[beauhoopman]

no deal: rosenthal reports it was hirsch, tavares, and bucholz but no deal went through. kenny williams back in chicago now.

[tdogg]

"Somebody got some splaing to do"

[ArodSucksAtLife]

"The deal was close, according to Tal Smith, the Astros’ president of baseball operations. It will be announced shortly at Walt Disney's Swan and Dolphin Resort this morning."

Someone pants that guy.

[A2000]

Wow. KW whats goin on.
1.Oswalt
2.Rocket (if he comes back)
3.Pettite (probably)
4.Garland
5.Hirsh
Best Rotation in the NL? Best Rotation in the ML?
I hope the 'Stros can it for them this year.

[A2000]

Wow. KW whats goin on.
1.Oswalt
2.Rocket (if he comes back)
3.Pettite (probably)
4.Garland
5.Hirsh
Best Rotation in the NL? Best Rotation in the ML?
I hope the 'Stros can it for them this year.

[FormerTribuneEmployee]

Right on White Sox, destroy your team! And at the same time give my Cubs fits by trading pitching into our division! Someone slap Kenny around would ya!

[Darin]

A2000:

If this trade goes down:

The Astros wouldn't have the money to get Pettitte, and no Pettitte means the likelyhood of getting Clemens back is deminished. And Hirsh is part of the package. So the rotation would look a little like this:

1.Oswalt
2.Garland
3.Woody Williams
4.Matt Albers(?)
5.Wandy Rodriguez/Chris Sampson/Fernando Nieve

that doesn't look that great. They need to add a pitcher and still keep Hirsh....

[Laputian]

I will seriously flip a bitch if the 'stros trade away Hirsh. Besides Nieve, hes my personal favorite of the young pitchers.

[palehose35]

"Right on White Sox, destroy your team! And at the same time give my Cubs fits by trading pitching into our division! Someone slap Kenny around would ya!"

I heard KW was going to send Garland back to the Cubs, but they kept asking for some guy named Matt Karchner.

[Marvel]

As an Astros fan, this is pretty horrible from our side. We don't have another OF who could possibly cover as much ground as Taveras plus Hirsh and Buchholz have good potential. I'd rather keep those guys than acquire Garland for two years. Hopefully the rumor that this fell through is correct.

[Brian]

Call me a homer, but I believe Jose de Jesus Ortiz on this deal over Ken Rosenthal. Ortiz says its Buchholz and Taveras fopr Garland. Ortiz covers the Astros solely. Rosenthal is saying its Buchholz, Taveras and Hirsch for Garland. Rosenthal covers all of sports. It seems to me that a guy who covers one team would know more details about his team then a national writer. That trade just doesnt make sense to me. You are giving up our top pitching prospect, along with another pitcher and Taveras for 1 guy??? That makes zero sense. Also, Tal Smith says an annoucement about the deal is close. I just pray to God that we dont give up Hirsch in the deal.

[palehose35]

I really doubt Garland would go without the Sox getting Hirsch in return. Remember, Garland almost left for a deal that included John Danks a few weeks ago, and Danks is a better prospect (although not as far along) than Hirsch.

[KE632117]

It would be a huge mistake for the Astros to get rid of Hirsh, and it would probably, in time, end up being a mistake to get rid of Buchholz also. What is the point of hiring a new pitching coach then getting rid of the two best young arms? I really hope that Hirsh is not involved in this deal, the Astros would be completely out of their minds to trade him.

[joel]

right now astros payroll is 74mm, without raises. Astros could conceivably do garland (10mm) and petitte (13mm). If stros get garland and petitte the deal is good by me. if not i prefered seeing the prospects grow.

[KE632117]

CWS fans and Astros fans both hate the deal, lol I really hope this falls through

[hood]

Does anyone know if the Soriano for Ramirez trade is official I can't find a confirmation anywhere.

[hood]

Does anyone know if the Soriano for Ramirez trade is official I can't find a confirmation anywhere.

[Brian]

I agree with Joel and KE632117. Both of you make great points. KE, if the Stros do in fact give up both Hirsch and Buchholz, our top 2 pitching prosepcts, then what is the point in bringing in a new pitching coach to "help the young guys"??

[hood]

Does anyone know if the Soriano for Ramirez trade is official I can't find a confirmation anywhere.

[palehose35]

just got to rotoworld.
they're made the announcement for each player and changed their teams.

it's official.

i feel bad for M's fans on that one...that would make me furious.

[Brian]

http://www.sportsradio610.com/Article.asp?id=92098

SportsRadio610 says its just Taveras and Buchholz for Garland and that the deal is done but they are waiting on either Kenny Williams of the White Sox or Tim Purpura of the Astros to make an announcement.

[joel]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/4385040.html

Read the paragraph 'Garner hopeful'

Any news on Josh Bard who has interested the Astros?

[Darin]

610 could tell me the Astros play in Minute Maid park and the Texans suck, and I still wouldn't believe a word of it. They are always wrong, so with them chiming in, I say Hirsh was part of it, and it fell through.

[joel]

the 610 report is just a copy from the chron, nothing to reinforce.

[Darin]

What in the world would the Mets want with Wandy Rodriguez? The Astros should just put Wandy on a plane for La Guardia, with a sixpack of Shinerbock in hand, and a thank you note.

[coolpapabell]

If this deal goes through, the white sox will have a very very fast outfield. Ozzie can get back to playing Ozzie ball. Pods will have less pressure to score runs with the help of Willy T. That is enough to give opposing catcher the Willies (pun intended). The pale housers will also be in position to resign Dye, by having shed Garland's salary. I still not sure if this is a good idea or not but it cfertainly has its benefits for the Palehousers, and the Stros can boast a 1-2 punch of Roy O and Garland, and watch out if Clemens comes back. Garland should be much strong in the NL, not that he wasn't already strong in the AL. A perfect storm would be Roy O, Garland, Petite (hey you never know), Clemens, and Me(I am a Mets fan but it seems like they can throw any old person in the fifth slot, so why not me?)

[coolpapabell]

Just so we are clear, I would only make myself available if they have a fifth slot for me in that "perfect storm rotation". I refuse to shoulder the hopes of what few Stros fans there are without a lot of help.

[cubfever7]

I don't see how Hirsh could possibly be included in this deal. If so, Williams has just achieved a windfall both player wise and financially. I'll have to see it to believe it.

[coolpapabell]

But without Hirsh Williams gets accused of letting his pot addiction affect his work.

[nrmax88]

What ever happened to the Astros have money in reserve for Roger and ANdy, thats all the astro fans were talking about a couple weeks ago. I dont possibly see why this would stop them from resigning pettitte... at all

[KE632117]

Coolpapabell, Roy O, and Garland, would be a great 1-2 punch, but after that the Astros would have an incredibly weak rotation. The overrall assumption is that acquiring Garland means not enough money for Pettitte.

If Pettitte does not sign with the Astros, I highly, highly doubt that Clemens will pitch for Houston. Leaving our #3 starter as Woody Williams, and our #4 and #5 slots being filled by young pitchers with very little major league experience. A combination of Albers, Nieve (who was initially being groomed to be a closer), Sampson, or Wandy Rodriguez (depending on what happens with those trade rumors) would have to fill the 4 and 5 spots. This is why Astros fans are desperately hoping this trade does not go through. The Astros will not have a pitching rotation if it does.

In my opinion the best option for the Stros' would be to go after Pettitte hard and hopefully end up with a rotation of Roy O, Pettitte, Williams, Hirsh, and possibly Buchholz, or another young arm that can be decided in Spring Training. Then hopefully when June rolls around it will be Roy O, Pettitte, Clemens, Williams, and Hirsh. But a trade for Garland would seem to ruin the chances of that.

[joel]

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2953

Looks like the deal wasn't as close as it seems. I think it isn't going to happen. There wasn't enough balance as evidence by the discussion here.

[coolpapabell]

So what happens if the Stros don't get Pettite back? Does Roger still not come back? Then you would have Roy O, Williams, Hirsh, Bucholzs and Wandy. Do the Stros have a back up plan if Andy doesn't come back? I don't see why Drayton can't pony up $14M for 1yr. What is the feeling down in Astros country?

[KE632117]

Nrmax, The Astros/Drayton will always have the money available to sign the Rocket because of the excitement he brings to the city and the fans. He would be signing midseason, so his salary would not be included in the budget.

Pettitte, on the other hand, has to fit into the budget. I don't know what Astros fans said there is money in reserves for Pettitte, because that definitely isn't true. If you read some of the news articles from the last couple weeks at the Astros MLB website, or the in the Houston Chronicle, it is pretty clear Pettitte's initial indecision put the Astros in a tough spot. I honestly do not see the Astros paying the salary of Garland and bidding against the Yankees for Pettitte. It would be great if they did though.

[Marvel]

Jon Heyman just reported the deal fell through due to Buchholz failing his physical. He also reported the trade included Hirsh. I'll have to send a thank you card to Buchholz.

[jaxwithanx]

Very simple trade really. Taveras and Buchholz, Astros win. Throw in Hirsh....tips the scale in the Sox's favor. But Hirsh isn't even close to the Astros most talented pitcher, he is the most consistent right now. So in truth I'd rather see Hirsh go than Buccholz. Hirsh doesn't have the stuff to be more than a number 3 or 4 pitcher.

[jaxwithanx]

PS - i know that Buccholz isn't very consistent....but his stuff is great, and has shown that he can put it together in the ML. He just needs to be consistent. In other words, the need of a pitching coach just like the one the Astros brought in.

[Brian]

Marvel, there is no way thats true. I'm not saying you're lying but whoever Jon Heyman is, is B.S.'ing us. Physicals dont happen that quickly. Freddy Garcia hasnt even taken his physical with Philly yet. Normally, you make the trade and sign off on it, but if a player fails his physical, the deal is null and void. Kind of like the way Lee Suggs to the Jets this past offseason. The deal was done, but Suggs failed his physical with New York. Its the same way with MLB.

[KE632117]

I think the overrall feeling is that he will come back to Houston if Drayton is willing to pay him what he deserves. If Pettitte does not play for Houston next season, the Astros may attempt to trade for Jennings, or acquire a mediocre free agent still available. A couple of weeks ago, I heard they had been in contact with Suppan's agent. I think if the Astros are aggressive in getting Pettitte, he will be back in an Astros uniform in 07'.

[jaxwithanx]

Yeah that Jon Heyman thing is BS. You don't take physicals before the trade goes through. So who made the mistake....Heyman?....or did you just lie.

[Marvel]

Brian,
Just reporting what I read on si.com. Of course, they are the same people who reported Pettitte was close to a deal with NY, only to hide the phrase "is said to be intrigued with the idea of returning to pinstripes" in the article. Which basically means, "My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this kid who's going with a girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious."

[jaxwithanx]

post a link from SI?

[Marvel]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/12/07/thursday.scoop/1.html

[Brian]

ea, I'm not saying you're lying, but I dont believe the report. Deals get signed off on by both teams, then once the plaerys go to their new teams within a week, they take physicals. They dont do it the same day. Basically, what Heyman is putting out is that the Astros called Taveras and Buchholz and said "drop everything, fly to Chicago and take a physical." It doesnt make any sense. But, can you post the link from si.com so I can read it?

[jaxwithanx]

Wow. thats crazy. don't quite understand that...but thanks for the link.

[jaxwithanx]

I wasn't saying he was lying either....that either he was or Heyman was. Obviously he wasn't....sorry if it seemed blunt but its a comment board on the internet. This Heyman thing makes no sense...that means Buccholz already flew to the Sox' doctors where they were ready and waiting to give him a physical....just doesn't add up.

[KE632117]

Jax, If you don't think that Hirsh has the potential to be above a 3 or 4 starter, you do not know what you are talking about. I think Buchholz has great stuff, but you are kidding yourself if you think that he is a better pitcher than Jason Hirsh. They both have to adjust to playing in the Major Leagues, but Hirsh has the potential to be a top of the rotation pitcher in only a few years.

Hirsh was named Pacific Coast League Pitcher of the Year in 06', he started the MLB All-Star Futures Game, and he was named a Triple A All-Star. He had an ERA of 2.10 in his 23 starts for Round Rock last year. He had a 12 game winning streak in which he had an ERA of 1.28, and he went 46.2 consecutive innings without giving up an earned run.

[jaxwithanx]

Don't tell me I don't know what i'm talking about man. I live in Houston you don't think i know his stats? Great stats for the minor leagues, but dominance in the minor leagues consistently does not translate into dominance into the major. With hitters and pitchers alike. He doesn't have the type of stuff to do the things he has done in minor leagues consistently in the majors. Although he definitely could be a very solid number 3 or 4.

[jaxwithanx]

In other words....what makes a dominant major league pitcher...a 1 or 2 guy....is above average pitches....not just average pitches with above average command. Which in the minor leagues....gets you very far. Here is something easier for you to understand....since you seem very easily swayed by minor league accolades....if he started the All Star game....won triple A pitcher of the year....and generally was considered to have the talent to be an ace someday....why isn't there a buzz on him from teams looking for pitching. And why are we looking for a number 2?

[Marvel]

More on the fall through of the deal. I'll post it this time.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4385643.html

[John]

I don't see Taveras, Buchholz, AND Hirsh going to Chicago for Garland. I could see a scenario where questions came up about the health of Buchholz and Chicago tried to get Hirsh INSTEAD of Buchholz. That may be what killed the deal (or possibly just delayed it until they could agree or answer questions about Buchholz health). But surely they would not be giving up Hirsh AND Buchholz. Also, I am surprised Tal Smith would let out a deal might soon happen unless there was a reason for it. Maybe to prod Pettit into making a decision about where he wants to play next year. There may be a reserve fund for Clemens, but not Pettit. If Pettit really wants to stay in Houston (which I believe he does) and is just using the Yankees to up the price, this may push him to commit one way or the other. Maybe this news prompted Pettit to quit trying to bluff and get serious about signing. That might be what put the deal for Garland on hold.

[KE632117]

I never said that Hirsh is a solid No.2 for the 07' season, I said that he has to adjust to playing in the majors and he has the potential to be a solid top of the rotation pitcher. Earlier, I talked about how the Astros hired a new pitching coach to work with the young arms. And I think that Hirsh will develop into a quality pitcher.

I use his minor league stats and accomplishments because they show his potential. I do not think that dominance in triple A means automatic dominance in the majors, but I think that it shows that he was at the top of his game in the minors and has the ability to be very successful in the majors. I think Buchholz has the same potential. I would prefer to keep both of them, because in time they will straighten everything out and I think they will both be quality starting pitchers.

Hirsh is not a top of the rotation pitcher right now, nor did I ever say that he was. Teams looking for pitching are looking for established pitchers, so the buzz is not on a Houston prospect that needs a few more years to adjust. The reason we are looking for a No.2 pitcher is because we don't have one. If you look at my previous posts about our rotation, I never said Hirsh should be our No.2 starter in 07', or that he was ready to be a No.2 starter. I only said that he has the potential to be better than a 3 or 4 starter.

[KE632117]

From Rotoworld:

"Buchholz says he hasn't had a physical since last spring training. "My shoulder's been great," Buchholz said. "The only thing that gave me problems was my middle finger. It was bothering me for about two months, from right around the All-Star break. But I was fine at the end of the season. I haven't had a physical.'"

[hood]

I am hearing that if and when that Garland/Taveras & Buchholz deal gets done the Astros have a deal and EXTENSION lined up for A. Jones. Just heard it on the sports radio station outta DC.Thy had somebody from a Houston newspaper.

[lynchmob450]

There is no way the WSox will get ripped on two consecutive days...NO WAY!!

[hood]

The names Lidge,burke & Pence were being mentioned. I can't see the Astros payin all that money though Jones will command at least 18 mill. With Lee,Garland,Berkeman,Jones, possibly Pettite & Clemens noway they can afford it.

[nrmax88]

how do u know what they can afford

[nrmax88]

i mean i am sure they can afford it if they want to, more of a question of will they. Where did u hear that though?

[KE632117]

McLane could afford it if he really wanted to, but I don't see that happening. A trade like that sounds out of character for the Astros. From what I have heard, they have been unwilling to let go of both Lidge and Burke.

[hood]

It was on the sports radio outside DC heard it earlier. The guy said I didn't hear his name but heard he was a writer for a Houston newspaper he also said the Astros prefer to make a deal for Wells but management believes its a for gone conclusion he will be goin to the Rangers in the offseason. Also I heard that A. Jones wants to stay in Atlanta real bad and hope the team gets sold fast so the payroll can be expanded that is why he will veto a trade. If he does go anywhere its said he will not go anywhere it snows in the offseason. He hates the cold. My cousin works in a gym some of the Brave players work out in. He is cool with alot and hears alot.

[allabouthephils]

McLane can afford his own private island off the coast of Greece if he wants to, it doesn't mean he will... Can you really see the Stros doling out 18+ to the Rocket. 12 to 15 for Petitte, 10 for Garland and then trying to resign Jones to the tune of 18+ a year after giving Schuerholtz a kings ransom... John Schuerholtz won't just give Andruw Jones away and pack it in next season before it has started. That comes to 60MM more... There isn't a team in baseball that's going to add 60MM in one off season ( other than the Cubs).

[nrmax88]

Yeah but at least that 60 million would make the astros a better team, unlike some other teams in the same division as the astros spending money like water and not adressing any needs

[beauhoopman]

So are you telling me the Cubs didnt address their 4 gaping holes in the rotation just by signing Ted Lilly?

[bsox21]

If the White Sox get both Hirsch and Bucholz out of this, KW had himself a nice offseason.

I even like the Pods signing.

$2.9 million is like dirt in the MLB for a player like Pods.