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D-Rays Willing To Trade Upton, Young?

According to Mike Berardino of the Sporting News, the Rays have been willing to discuss trades for both Delmon Young and B.J. Upton this winter.  (Berardino also writes for the South Florida Sun-Sentinel).  Apparently Upton's attitude and shaky defense scare rival teams more than Young's attitude alone.

It's tough to envision Young going anywhere.  Despite the bat-throwing, the 21 year-old has star written all over him.  He's got some interesting comparables, according to Baseball Prospectus.  The most similar player is the very solid former Astros and Reds CF Cesar Cedeno.  His list also includes Rocco Baldelli, Orlando Cepeda, Elijah Dukes, Ruben Sierra, Milton Bradley, Sammy Sosa, Hank Aaron, and Jeff Francoeur.  I didn't know PECOTA used attitude as a variable (Dukes, Bradley).

PECOTA is less enthused with Upton, likening him to Carlos Febles.  However, his list is quite impressive overall, with Alan Trammell, Willie Randolph, Pete Rose, Derek Jeter, and Tim Raines.  At 22, Upton still has plenty of time to find a position and blossom into a star.

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McGowan for Upton.

In fact, the Jays need a shorstop...why aren't they jumping all over this.

Glad you tossed it up there :)


We all know that the marlins offered supposedly Nolasco for him. Which wasnt enough to get Upton. But they wont part with one of their main 4 starting pitchers for him (willis, olsen, johnson, sanchez).

So they need to go somewhere inbetween like Nolasco + a top prospect like Thompason or even West perhaps.

As for the other part of the article the information that the marlins turned down Rios makes sense both financially and the fact that a lefty young power pitcher is more valuable then a possible 5 tool talent in arbitration.

It should be interesting to see what happens.


Guitar Hero why would the blue jays want Upton? They have 4 OF already.

He's a shortstop isn't he?

His defense at SS was so horrible that they moved him to 3B and then was so horrible there he was on pace for a record in errors. He is a very very poor defensive infielder.

maybe the Jays know the secret to unlocking his inner coachability?

Seriously, I seem to remember waaaaay back reading that he was drafted for his amazing defensive ability and that people wondered if he would ever hit.

at least if you define defensive ability in terms of raw arm strength and range

Yeah well I don't know much about him, maybe the Jays could tough it out and his athletic ability could get him back to a good infielder...plus, he's probably not Russ Adams bad, so as long as he isn't...the Jays are used to horrible production all around from SS.

Actually he was drafted for his speed and bat ability. He is a top 10-15 prospect still if he qualified as a prospect. But, I havent seen anywhere the blue jays going after him. But, never know I guess stranger things have happend but him and his brother look like OF prospects mostly.

Baseball Prospectus seems to think a move to 2B would (for whatever reason) drastically improve his defense.

I'm sure we could find some use for him, or if it were part of another set of shuffling moves that somehow adds to the picture.

Jacques Jones for Upton.

Not sure if I agree with them Baseball America has only a move for the Outfield as a good idea.

But Upton they wanted Scott Olsen from the Marlins for him. I doubt they will let him go cheaply all of a sudden.

I would take Jones for Upton any day of the week. But there's no way Piniella would let that trade go through. He knows how bad Upton is. Upton was drafted because of his speed, his bat potential, and his amazing arm strength and athleticism. So far he has shown that he has good speed, a great arm, and great athleticism, but there's a couple of things you have to do to succeed in baseball: field the ball and hit it. He's terrible at fielding it, and mediocre so far at hitting it. He has the potential, but he needs to reach it very soon before it's too late.

Like wihargo, I thought Upton had a defensive upside so I was surprised to read about his problems in the infield. That is certainly NOT what the Jays need. The Jays offense is nice, it's defense and pitching that the team needs, so I don't see Upton becoming a Jay.

What I find more interesting about this news is the omission of Dukes on the bait list. I guess his recent behavior has lowered his trade value, so the Rays may be better off to keep him in the stable and try to train his inner trouble maker to hit the road. If I were JP, I'd take this as a sign to carefully consider acquiring Dukes.

The Rays won't trade Dukes to the Jays unless we get a substantial offer. His latest incident is nothing compared to some of the other stuff he's been arrested for. His value did go down, but not that much. He's still worth a high pitching prospect or 2.

McGowan is just like BJ Upton for the Jays. He's kinda fizzling, and low trade value. I still hope he becomes a good pitcher for us one day though. It would be like out of thin air.

What kind of rating systems says a player is comparable to either Hank Aaron or Jeff Francour. That is like asking someone what a drink tastes like and they say either beer or milk.

If the Rays continue to wait out the perfect offer for their players, they'll never move them. They have surpluses in the IF and OF, but still no real pitching to speak of outside of Kazmir.

Upton for Heilman and a prospect like Devaney. Two pitchers for a guy nobody knows where to play....

Mets could use him at Second. Not like Jose Valentin (despite a terrific year last year) is much better.

Side note: Wasnt Upton rated higher than David Wright?

Something cool that i found out a few days ago was that wright and upton made up the left side of the infield a few years for a team in the cap cod league. Ryan Zimmerman was the utility guy on that team as well. I say Kenny Williams offers up a package of the his least impressive young arms that he got in trades this winter and goes and snags upton and try him out in center.

and ill also sneak in here and offer a trade possibiltiy, upton for davies, upton could lead off and play second or left, but dont know we have the depth to trade kyle davies, nor do i think the drays would trade upton for him straight up

Davies, Paranto and Lerew for Upton and Fossum

These offers are comical.

Keep em coming... feels like a SNL skit.

Last I checked, Upton was still light years better than the likes of Davies, Nolasco, and McGowan. None of whom would even crack the top 50 if they were still eligible as prospects.

Upton did rate ahead of Wright - he was the #3 overall prospect in 2005, and probably would have been #1 overall last year had he qualified. People always thought he'd find his bearings on defense, as he certainly has the tools, but he has a major problem with overthinking plays; he does well on instinctive plays, but as soon as there's a second of lag time for him to make a throw, he'll throw it into the stands or boot it before it's in his glove. In any case, Upton makes the most sense at CF these days. I doubt he'd do any better at 2B than at short, although outside of the errors he does make some fantastic plays (i.e. the throw from his back to nail the runner at first, and the catch he made on a foul ball in the stands about halfway between 3B and LF).

Either way, McGowan isn't even close to equal value for Upton. Olsen is right around fair value, but I can understand if the Marlins just don't want to trade him because they think he'll become something special. I doubt the Rays would trade Upton for Davies straight up. They'd probably throw someone into the deal to get Chuck James though. My impression from what I've read is that the DRO doesn't like Davies at all, but loves James.

Zimm, Upton and Wright played together on the Tidewater AAU team, not in the Cape Cod League. They're all from the Virginia Beach area.

ok my bad thanks for clearing that up brickhaus, and ill say i think the best all around player who is gonna come from that area is justin upton

I don't think Upton at this point is worth Olsen. Olsen has already performed well in the MLB, and will only improve. As for Upton, who knows? Maybe he'll be special, maybe passible, maybe bad. I don't think the Fish should be giving up any of the big 4 for a question mark.

Sorry but BJ Upton is not worth near to Scott Olsen's value.

Scott Olsen was a top 25 prospect just like upton was 2 years ago. But the difference was where Upton degressed and lost value (he cant be a SS in the major leagues which hurts his value). He has attitude problems and on top of that had a down year with the bat.

On the other hand with willis, and Hamels, Scott Olsen is the best power lefties in the NL that are under 25. Scott olsen is a power pitcher from the left handed side that has done very well as a rookie and projects to big things. He will be a 200k per year pitcher and either a number 1 or number 2 on most staffs.

The fish are rumored to have offered Nolasco and wont give up any more. My suggestion above was Nolasco and a top 50 pitching prospect. Not just nothing like Heilman or McGown by themselves.

Even that I doubt the Fish would do honestly.

It is nice he played baseball with some elite talents of the past. I once played in one of the old timers game where they let some kids play too down here. I got to play with past MLB players does that mean I have great value in trade? No.

Bickhaus, I agree he could be a good player and get good value. But, I dont think you can make the jump from His potential (and headaches) to an Elite young pitcher that had a case for the Rookie of the Year.

Baseballfan79. I'm assuming that you meant Olsen is amongst the best, not the best, because that title belongs to Cole Hamels.

The trade the D-Rays need to make is BJ Upton for Chris Volstad and Aaron Thompson

Upton is stuggling becuz of the bullshit that the DRays are making him deal with.

Leave him in Triple A and eave him at shortstop and he'd be fine down the road.

He's a stud prospect.

Upton will be a star within 2 years. He will out perform Jose Reyes by 2008.

He has just as much speed, more power and an absolute rifle for an arm.

He will be an incredible player when his team just fucking lets him play.

baseballfan doesnt know shit about upton.

ignore him and draft upton in all of ur keeper leagues.

if uv already drafted, trade for him.

I got Upton for Yovani Gallardo this part offseason.

I am happy as hell.

the DRays are not trading delmon young.

no way any GM wants to be the guy that traded away delmon young, unless you're getting felix hernandez.

bullsball, are you a DRay fan or a cub fan? You would trade Upton for Jacque Jones? And im pretty sure your a rays fan. If you are, then wow.

What team are you a fan of nrmax88?

What difference does that make. All im saying is if I rooted for the Rays, and they traded upton for J. Jones, I would completely flip out. It wasnt me trying to hate on the Rays or anything

baseballfan doesnt know shit about upton.

ignore him and draft upton in all of ur keeper leagues.

if uv already drafted, trade for him.

I got Upton for Yovani Gallardo this part offseason.

I am happy as hell.

Posted by: bsox21 | January 22, 2007 at 03:14 PM


I know Plenty of Upton and I think very highly of him and I think he can be come a stud CF, but there is alot of questions about him to and he is not worth the trade value of a young elite lefty SP like an Olsen or Hamels or those along that caliber was my statement.

There are few in the game that are worth such a high price as those type of players. On a side note dont jump to conclusions and read what I write next time. You do this in every thread to folks just becoming insulting.


To the phillies Fan, Hamels is nice, just as olsen is both are in the same caliber and catagory right now. They both have the potential to become elite arms in the majors and perhaps even cy young contender someday as 1-2 type pitchers.

But right now willis is the best lefty in the nl still.

Just a few inaccuracies in BF79's post:

1) There's no such thing as a $200k player; minimum salary is around $375k these days.

2) Olsen wasn't a legitimate rookie of the year candidate last year. He received 1 third-place vote, which was less than 8 other guys and tied with 3 others.

3) Much of Olsen's value lies in his projection as well. He had a 107 ERA+ last year (in a pitchers park), which is a little above average. That's not star level yet. I think he'll be much better than that in the future, as do you, but he's not there quite yet.

4) Olsen was never a top 25 prospect. The highest he ever was was #34 in 2006. In 2004, when Upton was the #3 prospect, Olsen was the #67 prospect. http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26983.html

5) Left-handed NL starters 25 and under is a pretty small category. I'm guessing there were no more than 10 LHPs who started 10+ games in the NL last year at 25 or under. At best, he was the 4th best pitcher in that small category, after Willis, Hamels and Chuck James. The only other ones I can think of off the top of my head were all in Pittsburgh's rotation (Duke, Maholm, Perez), although I'm sure there are a few I'm missing.

I don't disagree with your points generally, although I do think you're underrating Upton (name me the last player who held his own in the majors as a 19 year old and didn't become a star?), but it's much harder to take you seriously when you get so many things factually incorrect.

The Devil Rays are very stubborn when it comes to trades. After what the Marlins did last year, they have no excuse for their lack of pitching. You have a surplus of position players, trade them. Although given their past transactions, I doubt either will get traded.

The Jacques Jones for Upton makes no sense for either team. Why would the Cubs trade a disgruntled outfielder for another disgruntled outfielder? And the Rays can't afford Jones' contract.

nrmax88 it was just a simple question i just waned to know what team you rooted for.

1) There's no such thing as a $200k player; minimum salary is around $375k these days.


A Strike out is a K. He projects a 200k per year player. I am not speaking of salary, btw the base salary I believe next year 380,000 not 375,000.

2) Olsen wasn't a legitimate rookie of the year candidate last year. He received 1 third-place vote, which was less than 8 other guys and tied with 3 others.

That is more then BJ Upton had received in his rookie time past qualification. Plus last years class was something special with the elite talents and the rookie of the year had a year seldom seen for a rookie.

3) Much of Olsen's value lies in his projection as well. He had a 107 ERA+ last year (in a pitchers park), which is a little above average. That's not star level yet. I think he'll be much better than that in the future, as do you, but he's not there quite yet.

With one of the worst defensives in baseball behind him and a low run support total that is a good ERA + there. Then you factor in his potential for growth and the fact that was a Rookie year yes that is very impressive.

4) Olsen was never a top 25 prospect. The highest he ever was was #34 in 2006. In 2004, when Upton was the #3 prospect, Olsen was the #67 prospect. http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26983.html

In one of the mid-year ones he was within the top 25, in either case he has proven himself where Upton has not.

I am not under-rating the potential of Upton at all, I think he could become a fabulous player. But, Olsen is far too high of a price to pay by the marlins and from statements by the Marlins one they wont pay. Even the article above references they wont move him off. The D-rays have asked about olsen last year for Gathright and the team said no. They asked again this year for him for Baldelli and were repeatedly turned down again. The marlins wont break up their top 4 arms. One of the reasons I don’t think they will fit as a trade partner for the Drays, their valuing of talent is, just as it has always been challenged. They want another Kazmir type trade. Beinfest is not a GM to make that type of trade with them.

My only projectable deal I could see the marlins and drays doing (which I stated I doubt would happen) would be Nolasco + a top pitching prospect like a Thompson or Hernandez or West perhaps even.

My main point with olsen is that the marlins would never make that trade the upside vs risk in that trade is highly not in their favor. Specially for the price, and the attitude problems, question marks, etc etc etc. Olsen in 2 years will be the best arm in their rotation ahead of willis even in my opinion. They can fill their need for a CF with a stop gap and go through either the draft or the minors in the future (like carol or one or two others down in A ball that project out well that they drafted last year). They have options they are just a little bit away. But then the marlins are built for a run in 2008-2009 not this year anyways there is no rush for them. Specially with the CF class available next year for them in FA.

I took the Jacque Jones trade proposal as a joke (maybe it wasn't), because Cubs fans seem to hijack every thread with a Jacque Jones trade proposal.

The D-Rays always ask too much in trades, but they definitely need to suck it up, realize that they have a surplus of young position studs and NO pitching, and do something already.

... But not Young! Seriously, that would be way too Bavasi-esque.

But, I do feel that Upton in the right situation could have a break out year within the next 2 years of the majors. I think if he gets moved to the OF and finds himself in a hittters park with some playing time he could be a great canidate for a nice future. I think he could put up a 280/350/450 line with 30-40 SB along with it as well. He could become a good Lead off hitter with some pop in the bat as well. But, he needsto get into the right situation and with the problems with his current parent club and himself it will be interesting to see what will happen there. I highly follow the Drays as I watch them on tv whenever the marlins are not playing (hence not at the games).

nickjs21

just becuase you have a surplus does not mean they need to sell cheap and getting jones just makes them older, more expensive and again takes up an outfield positon. I really dont see anyway they would do a trade with the cubs without perhaps a marshall + Veal and something package, or something along those lines. But, even then I am not so sure.

I think in spring training a upton trade will happen if one does, but even then I am tempted to say nothingwill happen unless the drays lower their price.

That said Beradino is hardly ever right about anything when it comes to his opinion.

"I took the Jacque Jones trade proposal as a joke (maybe it wasn't), because Cubs fans seem to hijack every thread with a Jacque Jones trade proposal."

It was a joke until someone said they would really do that trade, haha.

"The D-Rays always ask too much in trades, but they definitely need to suck it up, realize that they have a surplus of young position studs and NO pitching"

Scott Kazmir
James Shields
Jeff Niemann
Mitch Talbot
Andy Sonnanstine
Jake McGee
Wade Davis
Jeremy Hellickson
Matt Walker
Jon Barratt
Jason Hammel
J.P. Howell
Edwin Jackson
Juan Salas

But the Devil Rays have NO pitching?

Please do me a favor and stfu when you don't know what you're talking about.

The Rays have 4-5 pitchers in the top 100 prospect lists this year and one of the best young pitchers in the game as the staff ace.

To say they have no pitching is preposterous and proves the only thing you know is the BS that the mainstream media feeds you.

The only thing lacking from the Devil Rays is a #2 starter to pitch behind Kazmir.

Unless the Rays are getting that pitcher in return, they have absolutely no logical reason to trade one of their top prospects or players such as Baldelli, Crawford, Upton, Dukes, or Young. They really have no reason whatsoever to trade Crawford or Young, who have the most future value to the club.

you left off Mason btw :)(whom I think will develope well still). But, the drays do have some nice prospects down below that could develope very well. I wish Niemann would keep healthy, if so with a great Spring Training he could be in the big leagues.

Honestly, you'd rely on all those pitchers for the 2007 season? If you don't think the Rays need pitching, what is keeping them from winning then? They have potential stars at almost every position. Scott Kazmir is the only pitcher that can even compete with the rest of the AL East right now.

The infield and outfield are getting crowded with MLB ready stars. Their pitching staff is a joke. They need to trade from their strength and beef up the pitching because they *don't* have any major league ready pitchers who can compete (besides the oft-injured Kazmir).

youalreadyknow.... my man, you need to stfu, cuz the only one of those guys who will puit in a meaningful contribution next year is KAz, thats if his glass arm doesnt give him trouble. Kazmir is one of the top young pitchers in the game? HAHAAHAHAH. Funny. Hes good, but giving his injury problems, and the fact that there are plenty of young pitchers with more talent then him, that does not = a top pitcher in the game. Sorry.

you left off Brian Stokes and Tim Corcoran too, but I digress. I would not be too crushed if I saw Upton leave us but I do feel confident that we will be getting enough in return for him. Freidman is pretty set with Zobrist at SS and Iwamura at 3B so that leaves the only option for BJ to take with the Rays as a competitor with Cantu for 2B. Granted I think Cantu should be moved to 1B to platoon with Norton and Wiggington shipped out, I doubt that that is going to happen. But Cantu competing with Upton for 2B is going to drive down someone's trade value and might slightly improve the team.


How about this? Oliver Perez and Anderson Hernandez for BJ Upton and Jae Seo? Maybe talk to the Padres about an Upton package for Adrian Gonzalez? Just some ideas (I don't even deem Jacque Jones for Upton an idea, that's a nightmare to me) for what Upton could do on the trade market. Keep in mind, the Rays do not have to trade Upton.. maybe a deal will be pushed if Josh Hamilton returns to the Rays..

nrmax, still bitter about that trade aren't you? Kaz will strike out over 180, again, and be among the league leaders in wins. He'll be an All-Star this year.

Kazmir is good, but I honestly dont see him throwing a 200 inning season anytime soon, meaning he is not a top pitcher. I will take the marlins whole staff over Kazmir, and a ton of other guys can be easily compared to or are better than Kaz. Peavy, Young, Billingsley, Kuo, Webb, Zito, Cain, Lowry, Francis, Oswalt, Big Z, Carp, Sheets, Chris caps, Zach Duke, Maholm, Hamels, James, hell even John Patterson, but he cant ever stay healthy either. And thats only the NL. Dont get me wrong, I love KAzmir, but until he stays healthy all yeah and throws 200 innings u cant call him a top pitcher

Wow this title scared the crap out of me until I realized it was the D-Rays they were talking about and not the D-Backs.

"nickjs21

just becuase you have a surplus does not mean they need to sell cheap and getting jones just makes them older, more expensive and again takes up an outfield positon."
I think you may have misinterpreted me here, I was not at all suggesting they should trade for Jones. Despite youalreadyknow's claims, the Devil Rays need pitching and that is what I was suggesting. The problem is, they try to bend everyone over the barrel with trade offers.

And yes, the Devil Rays need pitching. What bigger hole do they have in the organization that's keeping them from contending? And let's say for a moment they don't need pitching. What are they going to do with an OF of Crawford, Young, Dukes, Baldelli, and, if they move him, Upton? Platoon? They need to pull a deal for some good major league ready pitchers. Even if you think they don't need it (I disagree). Too many outfielders is a logjam. Too much pitching is a wet dream.

Whoa. Whoa. You have to be kidding me. Kazmir is a great young pitcher.

10.24 K/9 last year with a 3.24 ERA in the land of great offenses which is the AL EAST.

Yes he was injured last year, but he could have come back last september had they been playing meaningful games, but the Drays decided to shut him down.

I don't think that any team has more uncertainty going into spring training than the Rays do. So much could go wrong, so much could go right. I suppose that would be a good enough reason not to make any trades, just wait and see what develops in-house. Instead of dealing away the next Bobby Abreu...

About Kazmir: I kind of wonder if at least part of the reason why the Rays brought in Jim Hickey is for the good work he supposedly did with Roy Oswalt, another 'undersized' pitcher. If they can get him to be a little more thrifty with how he gets guys out, he'll get your 200 innings nrmax.

Ok This article seems like BS.. but has Anyone else heard this story about Johnny Damon trying to "swing" with A-Rod and His wife?

http://www.thebrushback.com/damonswing_full.htm

Bonatom... you might want to read the fine print. Unless the wool thats been pulled over your eyes is keeping the bugs out.

"Copyright 2006, The Brushback - Do not reprint without permission. This article is satire and is not intended as actual news. "

You're not seriously thinking this is a real story, are you?

HAHA.. No I did not believe it was real... BUT I did not see the "This article is satire and is not intended as actual news. "... Still it was worth the read... If I wrote the article.. I would have thrown in some Homosexual A-Rod reference... but otherwise..pretty funny

I don't think Upton is any great shakes at this point either.

I think Upton still has alot of potential and could become a star in the Majors. Send him to the Phillies for some 2nd rated pitching prospects....an infield that has Howard,Utely,Rollins and Upton at third, we be unstoppable....and Cole Hamels is the best lefty in the game

I heard Johan is pitching right handed this year

He'd still be better than the entire Royal's staff.

phils, I hope you were kidding about the "best lefty" comment. I mean, you do realize Johan Santana is a lefty right? Kazmir too. Zito three. Hamels may turn into a top 5 lefty in time, but right now, he's maybe top 20. He hasn't even pitched a full season, and he didn't look good quite a few times in the 3/4 season he did pitch.

"nrmax, still bitter about that trade aren't you? Kaz will strike out over 180, again, and be among the league leaders in wins. He'll be an All-Star this year"

Actually this is the best trade the Mets have made since Ive been alive. I'm not complaining. Basically, we traded Kazmir for Zambrano, Pedro, Beltran, Wagner. Ill make that deal every day

wihargo, maybe your right, I dont really know. All im saying is that until Kazmir is healthy for a couple years in a row and posts 200 innings, he can not be called a top pitcher in the game. If he can do this consistently, yeah, then he will be. His stuff is awesome, and I can see why people would say I am just bitter about that trade. The fact of the matter is though, if Kazmir isnt traded, he would be in the Mets rotation now, sure, but we would also have no Willie Randolph and no Minaya, and would still have guys like Jason Phillips at first, Kaz mats playing 2nd, Al Leiter would probably be here still, and all I am saying was if trading Kazmir was the price to finally make ownership realize a change was necesarry, then it was well worth it. I would rather have a good team without Kazmir then a mediocre team with him.

I think Cole Hamels is a complete stud, I am one of his biggest fans, but calling him the best left handed pitcher in baseball is a joke. I mean, like bdid said, he hasnt even pitched a complete season, and his numbers from this year arent even that good. I mean considering the circumstances, they are very good rookie numbers, and he showed signs of brilliance toward the end of the season, but the best lefty in the game?Thats pretty much the same thing as saying Scott Olsen is the best lefty in the game, sounds pretty stupid. I mean sure, he is a young stud with endless potential, but the best in the game?

u guys talk about throwing 200+ as a starter is easy.

If Kazmir or Hamels changed their styles to try to become REAL starters, then they may not be as effective.

I don't see Kazmir ever getting there.

He's max effort on his delivery and is heavily dependent on his slider which puts a lot of torque on his undersized body.

Kazmir = Billy Wagner

Hamels I don't know about. Good stuff tho.


THe DRays clearly need to deal an OF. Baldelli is clearly the guy to move.

Lowest upside, most expensive player in a crowded OF.

It's a no-brainer except well....u figure out what the problem is.

Upton would get PLENTY Of action as a trade chip.

MOst players his age are in double A.

Upton is showing flashes at the major league level.

He's at least going to become a Jeter-like player, with upside for more power.

NRMAX - How did the trade of Kazmir have anything to do with whether or not the Mets employed Pedro, Omar, Billy, Carlos, Carlos, etc.?

I sure you hope you meant that as a joke. If not, please don't make anymore more comments to others about their retarded posts. You're the league leader in that department.

nrmax88, if you read what was said, I didn't call Hamels the best lefty in the game, nor did anyone else from what I am gathering.

I referred to him as the best young lefty in the NL. To me, young is based on experience and not on age.

I would consider young with less than two years experience, and I would firmly call Hamels the best of that group.

By the way, Hamels' numbers smoke Willis'. At least one of these pitchers pitches in an extreme hitters park, and at least one of these pitcher pitches in an extreme pitchers park.

Who would you rather have?

Pitcher A - 3.87 ERA. 1.42 WHIP. 6.45 k/9 1.93 k/bb .274 avg against .350 obp against .396 slg against .742 ops against

Pitcher B - 4.08 ERA. 1.25 WHIP. 9.86 k/9. 3.02 k/bb. .237 baa .304 obpa .426 slga .727 opsa

Pitcher C - 4.04 ERA. 1.30 WHIP. 8.27 k/9. 2.21 k/bb. .239 baa .321 obpa .410 slga .728 opsa.

"I think Upton still has alot of potential and could become a star in the Majors. Send him to the Phillies for some 2nd rated pitching prospects....an infield that has Howard,Utely,Rollins and Upton at third, we be unstoppable....and Cole Hamels is the best lefty in the game"

USC, read the last line from this. Yes, in fact, someone did say best lefty in the game. Don't jump on someone until you know the facts. And you can love your Hamels all you want. Fact is, Willis pitched an entire season. Fatigue comes to play, and he didn't get to start in the Minors to make his adjustments. After this year, if Hamels puts up better numbers in a full MLB season, then I'm willing to say he is better than Willis. Willis was winning World Series titles at Hamels' age, and finishing second in CY Young voting at the same age as Hamels is. Wait, I don't really know how old Hamels is, but if he's 23 or Older, he's already older than Willis was when he finished 2nd in Cy voting.

at this stage in both of their careers, Willis is by far the better pitcher. dont get me wrong i like Hamels he has electric stuff, but like most of u have said i cant say hes better than Willis until he outperforms him for a full year and even then i might have my doubts.

really when u think about it were on the brink of a lefty revelution. There are so many good young lefties in the majors. u have guys like Erik Bedard, Kaz, Hamels, Willis, Olsen, O.Perez, Zach Duke, Paul Maholm, etc. these are promising days my friends

"I heard Johan is pitching right handed this year" Awesome.... I wonder when that day will come.. a pitcher who can pitcher righty and lefty.. have some sort of weird glove designed that you could stick both hands in.. and you woulnd't know which arm he was throwing with until we went into his motion... that would great

Being a Braves fan, you should be ashamed of yourself for not mentioning Chuck James.

"Being a Braves fan, you should be ashamed of yourself for not mentioning Chuck James."

Indeed. I am a Mets fan and even I like Chuck James.

There's that Liriano guy too. He's pretty good and probably deserves being mentioned as well. (especially given that he'd be the most talented pitcher on the list.)

This is just a suggestion. What would you guys think if the Devilrays traded Rocco Baldellie and B.j. Upton or Delmon Young for Dontrelle Willies or Brad Penny.

Bonatom.

Greg Harris was ambidextrous and pitche both right and left handed.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/H/Harris_Greg.stm


The curveballing, ambidextrous Harris -- not to be confused with another Greg Harris who pitched at approximately the same time -- bounced around the NL before landing with the 1984 NL champion Padres. Roughed up by the Cubs in the playoff opener, he allowed a NLCS-record six earned runs in one inning. He came into his own after his 1985 sale to Texas, leading AL relievers with 111 strikeouts and posting a 2.47 ERA. He went 10-8 (2.83) with a staff-high 20 saves in 1986, but in 1987 he both started and relieved, went 5-10 without a save, and was released. He had missed some games that season after injuring his elbow flicking sunflower seeds to a friend in the stands.

Harris caught on with the Phillies, but was waived in August 1989 after a year-and-a-half of solid relief work. He signed with the Red Sox, beginning a five-year Beantown tenure that would include some of his most productive years in the majors. Helped by Sox starter Mike Boddicker, Harris adapted his curve to a variety of pitching motions. The experiment paid off -- his first two seasons, spent in the rotation, produced 24 wins. Harris' ERA dropped from 3.85 to 2.51 after he returned to the bullpen in 1992, and he made a league-leading 80 appearances in 1993.

Harris' heavy workload soon took its toll. He moved to the Yankees after starting the 1994 season with an 8.38 ERA, and pitched just three games for his new team before the strike hit.

Harris' unusual ability to pitch with both hands led to some tension between him and the Red Sox, who forbade the ambidextrous hurler from throwing lefty. GM Lou Gorman insisted it would "make a mockery" of the game, leading Harris to grumble, "Boston is so conservative. People are afraid to try anything." In a muted show of defiance, Harris usually chose to wear an ambidextrous glove on the mound.

But just before his retirement, while pitching for the Expos in 1995, the veteran hurler finally became the only twentieth-century pitcher to throw from both sides of the mound. After Harris (pitching righty) retired Reggie Sanders to start off the ninth inning of a game against the Cincinnati Reds on September 28, 1995, he turned around to face the left-handed Hal Morris.

Harris issued a free pass, thus becoming the first ambidextrous major-league pitcher since Elton "Ice Box" Chamberlain of the American Association in 1888. Nerve-wracked, he stayed a southpaw and induced a ground-out from Eddie Taubensee, closing out the inning by retiring Bret Boone as a righty. The last pitcher to use both hands in a pro game had been Bert Campaneris, who did so in 1962 while playing for Daytona Beach in the Florida State League. (JCA/JGR)

"What would you guys think if the Devilrays traded Rocco Baldellie and B.j. Upton or Delmon Young for Dontrelle Willies or Brad Penny."

The Rays couldn't trade BOTH Baldelli and Upton; someone would need to play CF for them, and Crawford can't (like Coco Crisp, he's great in left, but a butcher in center). The Marlins wouldn't be interested in trading Willis for that package; there was a rumor that the Dodgers and Rays discussed a Baldelli for Penny deal, but it didn't go anywhere.

"NRMAX - How did the trade of Kazmir have anything to do with whether or not the Mets employed Pedro, Omar, Billy, Carlos, Carlos, etc.?"


Because Duquette never ever goes after Pedro Martinez, let alone recruiting him in his own living room in the DR. If pedro doesnt sign with the mets, then Beltran never answers the mets phone calls and is most likely a yankee. I actually dont know why i am arguing with you. If you knew anything about baseball, you would know that the KAzmir trade, as awful as it was on the surface, was a win for the Mets in the long run.

"and Cole Hamels is the best lefty in the game"

USC, that looks to me like he was calling Hamels the best lefty in the game. He didnt sugar coat it either its all right there my man. Want to keep arguing now?

Bleacher_Buddha

Good Stuff!!! i want to buy the movie rights to that guys life story

"really when u think about it were on the brink of a lefty revelution. There are so many good young lefties in the majors. u have guys like Erik Bedard, Kaz, Hamels, Willis, Olsen, O.Perez, Zach Duke, Paul Maholm, etc. these are promising days my friends"

I'd throw C.C. Sabathia's hat into the ring as well; I think people forget he'll only be 26 next year. Of course, that's granddaddy territory compared to some of these southpaws.

Rocco and Delmon Young for Dtrain? That would be very interesting. If it included Navarro and something else with willis back towards the drays I could see it happening. Marlins would want a catcher back. But I dont see the drays moving young at all or fish moving willis. (even though I expect 5,000 threads for trading him from mets fans durring the year).

dont forget lester into that lefty group too once he is healthy. Poor kid.

What kind of rocks are being smoked here?

Rocco Baldelli and Delmon Young wouldn't be traded in the same deal or even the same offseason unless the Rays were getting Albert Pujols or Johan Santana in return.

Those are video game trades, not real baseball trades.

As for Chuck James being mentioned alongside Kazmir and Hamels, that's a load of BS if you ask me. Kazmir and Hamels have stuff that is lightyears ahead of Chuck James and his 90-91 mph fastball. After James's changeup, his arsenal goes into the toilet. Thus why he has the fastest headturn in baseball to watch balls fly into the cheap seats about twice a game.

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