Mets Still Discussing Joe Blanton

John Delcos of the Journal News mentions in his blog that the Mets are still talking to Oakland about Joe Blanton.  Would it require Lastings Milledge? Ray Ratto seemed to think so back at the end of December.

Blanton would probably fare well in the NL, though not significantly better than John Maine.  The Mets are still lacking a front-rotation type pitcher.

Comments

[bsox21]

The Mets arent lacking a "front end" starter.

Let me introduce you to Shea Stadium baseball.

1) You get a great defensive CF and SS.

2) You build a monster offense that is able to score like an average offense in Shea Stadium, which is all it takes.

3) You build a rotation of a few veteran control pitchers with average stuff. You let Shea Stadium neutralize all but the elite hitters on the other team.

Snag high upside arms from neutral parks, who will look amazing in the confines of Shea Stadium.

30 HR hitters come to Shea Stadium to die. With a park like ours, you don't need Johan.

You need good defense, a solid bullpen, and a MONSTER offense becuz its IMPOSSIBLE to score in Shea.

We're fine.

With Oliver Perez's break out on the way and a solid year from Glavine and El Duque, we'll be there come October.

[bsox21]

By the way, ignore the Blanton for Milledge talk.

Deals like that don't go down on Omar's watch.

This would be a Steve Phillips type move.

[bdid]

Amen...

Blanton will never be a Met. Never, ever, ever. In fact, no current A will be a Met unless it is 4 years from now and they are FA's. Mark it down! Beane and Omar can't make deals, and should not be allowed to speak any longer.

[dj_kurioo]

"By the way, ignore the Blanton for Milledge talk.

Deals like that don't go down on Omar's watch.

This would be a Steve Phillips type move"

CO-FUCKING SIGNED....

[bravesbeast]

whew bsox u get around dont ya, not only r u a bandwagoner, but u go from sucking off dukes in tampa but u decided to stay in flordia and give perez some skinflute service as well, how about u still with ur redsox and actually make some sense then ull have a right to post an actual decent comment

[Ripwa]

bsox doesn't stand for Boston Red Sox. Where have you been bsox has been talking about Perez for awhile now.

[Spencer]

Bosox:
"With Oliver Perez's break out on the way and a solid year from Glavine and El Duque, we'll be there come October."

Wow, you think Perez broke out with one decent game. I agree he can succeed but that’s very unlikely. Btw I really think your whole argument is flawed. If there is one tendency that can indicate winning and possibly a championship, it’s pitching. The bottom line is the Mets don’t have pitching and with the rotation that is currently active, they don’t have a shot at winning any title soon. Yea you can argue they will achieve something in the NL, but that’s only because the NL, in total, is a joke compared to the AL.

Oh and you’re statement…”30 HR hitters come to Shea Stadium to die. With a park like ours, you don't need Johan.”

Come on! Every team needs a Johan…That statement can only be said by an ignorant Met fan.

[Spencer]

.....or yankee hater

[coolpapabell]

Well, now what happened to all of the complaints that bosox1 was being overly rude and provocing.........Well, I bosox should explode in 5,4,3,2,........

Yes, I really have nothing much to contribute aside from my deep admonition to Omar not to pull the trigger on any deal involving Joe Blanton, and Lastings Milledge.

I would love Haren, but I am not entirely sold on him yet. His bb/K is amazing,but nothing else jumps out at me.

I am pretty anxious to see what we can get out of Maine, Ollie Ollie Oxen Free and Vargas. Maybe with Sosa in the pen Aaron gets freed from bullpen service. In all, there is much reason for optimisum if you root for the orange, blue and white. I am really looking forwad to finally having a turnpike rivalry with the fightin's, that is if they don't under achieve like they usually do....oh, and last and not least, we look forward to blasting the Braves back to the Dale Murphy- Steve Bedrosian age. Braves= Suckas!

[coolpapabell]

oh and yes I know that it would be highly unlikely that Haren comes to New York without a Kings Ransom, and rightly so.

[RotoAuthority]

Not sure what you're arguing...that playoff teams are better off without ace pitchers?

[allabouthephils]

Us Phillies fans are looking forward to seeing you Mets fans in the standings next season... I think this is the season for one of those classic dogfights within the division.... Where the division is decided by the head to head matchups... Bean ball wars and spikes gettin sharpened... lol

But, I will say that if the Mets are depending on a breakout year from Oliver Perez to succeed, I am smiling from ear to ear... I will say this.... The Mets rotation is as weak as I have seen it in years... No Martinez till May ( and even then, what are we to expect from him)... Glavine ( 40+), El duque who is solid, perez, and ??? ..... This team is one Glavine elbow problem away from serious disaster.... You get to the playoffs with good pitching.... You win in the playoffs with dynamite pitching and bullpen work along with very timely hitting.....

[allabouthephils]

Us Phillies fans are looking forward to seeing you Mets fans in the standings next season... I think this is the season for one of those classic dogfights within the division.... Where the division is decided by the head to head matchups... Bean ball wars and spikes gettin sharpened... lol

But, I will say that if the Mets are depending on a breakout year from Oliver Perez to succeed, I am smiling from ear to ear... I will say this.... The Mets rotation is as weak as I have seen it in years... No Martinez till May ( and even then, what are we to expect from him)... Glavine ( 40+), El duque who is solid, perez, and ??? ..... This team is one Glavine elbow problem away from serious disaster.... You get to the playoffs with good pitching.... You win in the playoffs with dynamite pitching and bullpen work along with very timely hitting.....

[allabouthephils]

He is arguing that his flawless Mets are above the need for great starting pitching.... Why they are the Mets... We haven't the need for quality starting pitching, we have Oliver Perez who will guide us to the promised land..... He is the next coming of Koufax... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha......

[samael88]

bsox21 is the same guy that sed in another post that carlos beltran was the best player in the league.

dont take him seriously please.

[bravesbeast]

All i have to say is that if the thing that gets you to the playoffs is good starting pitching and a dynamite bullpen, then the braves have to be right up there in NL East Contention. The braves do have many quesiton marks, but not as many as the mets, the phils and braves and marlins are on equal footing, even though i think that we have a better bullpen than either of them. If we are so equal in pitching in my mind, the the offense will have to settle the score, and i think the braves offense is second best in the divison. We have the same offense that scored the second most runs in the nl last year, sans marcus giles, whom i think we will find an adequate replacement for. Yall may not agree, im suspecting many of yall will not, but he braves are in just as good a spot as neone else is at the moment

[rhenderson58]

As a Braves' fan, I must say that one vision warms the cockles of my heart: Jorge Sosa in a Mets uniform.

[nrmax88]

Well same for me, cuz he is only a year removed from a 13-3 season with a sub 3 era, and there is no risk here.

[allabouthephils]

I can make an arguement that the Braves have the 4th best offense in the NL East this year behind the Mets, Phillies and Marlins..... They are definately 3rd behind the Mets and Phils.... It's not even a discussion... The starting 5 for the Braves is not as good as the Phils or Marlins... Period... They're are no question marks in the Phillies rotation or in the Marlins rotation... You do have the best bullpen, but a strong bullpen won't carry you to the postseason.... A strong rotation will but not a strong bullpen.....

Smoltz- awesome as usual
Hudson- questionable atbest
Hampton-I dont know
James- we'll see how he turns out on a full season
Is Kyle Davies your 5th starter ???

Phils look like this

Hamels- Awesome
Myers- above average
Garcia-servicable
Eaton-questionable
Moyer-steady but nothing spectacular

and the marlins have the best staff in the division so there you have it.... This all means that the Braves aren't going to be 500 let alone a playoff team...lol

[Droptop]

Phillies scored 865 runs
Braves scored 849 runs
Mets scored 834 runs
in '06

The Braves are being slept on, there pitching underacheived last year.

As for all these Met/A's trade rumors, none of them will happen as rumored if at all. Beane and Omar tend to get the better end of the deal in a trade, I don't see either one being entirely happy with a possible trade because neither will just give in to get one player.

And I'm not taking anyone seriously that says "...that SED..."

[nrmax88]

allabout the phils, you question the mets rotation, but then fail to call the phils out on any of their question marks. Hamels is a stud, but a year ago, he was in the position that pelfrey or humber was in. He is now your 2 or 3 starter. Like glavine, Moyer is old, older actually, in a much less forgiving ballpark. Freddy Garcia can be solid, but he is a flyball pitcher in a bandbox. Myers is consisten (when hes not beating his wife ;) ). Eaton is simply not very good. While the Phillies rotation can be very good, there are no sure bets. Not to kick a dead horse, but how can you call Huddie a qeustionmark at most, when he has had a whole good career, one year removed, and hamels is awesome (which i agree he is), but still only has a couple months of ML experience. He could have a sophomore slump. I also beg to differ when you say a good bullpen cannot carry you to the postseason. Itcan, with a good offense (see 06 Mets). The marlins were awesome last year, but im not sure if we can just assume they all play that far over their heads again. I see a guy like Anibal Sanchez having a very rough time of it next year. For such a young team, it might be rough to have a new manager come in and start all over again with his own ideas. The marlins may be succesful, but I see a big step backwards for them in 07. Expectations are much higher now, last year they had nothing to lose, they were expected to be awful. I dont think the Braves have the best bullpen. Last year they were awful, Wickman aint a spring chicken anymore, and Soriano was a good pickup, but the rest is still a bunch of young guys who are still relatively unproven. We will just have to wait and see

[ejruiz777]

Fans in this thread have taken homerism beyond the depths of insanity... unbeliaveable. To set the record straight, I'm a Braves fan and I could see any team in the NL East (except for the Nats) winning the division. Rank the remaining four teams as you like, but every single projection that has the Nats in the basement is not even remotely ridiculous. Personally, I think my Braves have as good a shot as any other team out there, but if I had to pick a horse before the race started, I'd go with the Marlins. In case my earlier statements result to ambiguos for the rest of you, I also think the Mets and Phils have solid teams that could win the division.

That said, every ridiculous argument on this board boils down to a series of misunderstandings and.or quotes being taken out of context and this is no exception. My advice: take more time to read the posts and other comments before you fly off the handle, people. Seriously, it's getting old and it's always been pretty pathetic.

[Guitar Hero]

You could make an argument that Beltran is the best player in the league.

[bravesbeast]

all about the phils, ill take the braves staff over the phils staff because of the veterans that we have, and i would love to hear your argument as to how you think the braves have the 4th best offense in the nl east. However, no need to argue because we will go back and forth all day. Ill put my faith in the fact that the braves staff will improve, we will not blow 30 saves again, and we also still have bobby cox and John Schuerholz. Ill take those three facts and say the braves are being a bit overlooked as to how good they could be.

[bravesbeast]

all about the phils, ill take the braves staff over the phils staff because of the veterans that we have, and i would love to hear your argument as to how you think the braves have the 4th best offense in the nl east. However, no need to argue because we will go back and forth all day. Ill put my faith in the fact that the braves staff will improve, we will not blow 30 saves again, and we also still have bobby cox and John Schuerholz. Ill take those three facts and say the braves are being a bit overlooked as to how good they could be.

[allabouthephils]

"You could make an argument that Beltran is the best player in the league."

Yeah, just not a very good one...

Nrmax,

Alright.. I agree with the Cole Hamels stuff and the question marks surrounding Eaton... But, your pitching staff was pretty dynamite for last season... It broke down towards the end of the year when you didn't have a 3rd starter to pitch in the playoffs... The pen was awesome, but it didnt get you into the playoffs....

Ejruiz77,

thats what we do on here.... it may be pathetic, but it's what we do... We argue about peoples posts... We cut and paste peoples posts and dissect them worse than an 8th grade frog in biology...... It's how we kill time and talk baseball... If you don't like it sorry... It's not gonna change....

[allabouthephils]

bravesbeast,

I like your enthusiasm about the Braves... Rafael Soriano is an absolute stud in the back of that pen and should sure up your bullpen immensely... Chalk another one up for Shuerholz.... I take the Phils rotation though... We have 2 potential all world aces in Myers and Hamels that are only going to get better this season... If I had to place Freddie Garcia in a spot on your staff, I would put him second behind Smoltz and that says alot to me... Moyer is old but quite dependable... Eaton is the big ? we have on this staff... I think that you guys are still hurting from the departure of Leo Mazzone... I just see Mazzone leaving and then the streak of division championships stops... I dont think that was a coincidence.... We will have to see how the season plays out though.. It will certainly be a great race... I am looking forward to it...

[PeteRose]

"This all means that the Braves aren't going to be 500 let alone a playoff team...lol"

You're a Phillies phan and you doubt the scrapping ability of the Braves. They take one year off and you've already got them in the gutter....shame on you.

[bravesbeast]

Like i say we I disagree with you, but you are right we will see what happens. And i will commend you on ur support for the phils. We are two die hard fans who are thinking about how good our teams can be if they play attheir potential. I agree it will be a fun season. That is why i think outside of the Al central, the nl east is the most competitive divison.

[bsox21]

1) Beltran is the best player in the league.

Most of the people on this board come here to regurgitate the media, and the media doesnt give Beltran any props. Not sure why they don't like him.

People like to point to career OPS and Pujols' higher OPS by 150 points or so.

What u idiots dont understnad is that just becuz Pujols popped earlier than Beltran, DOES NOT MEAN HE IS BETTER TODAY.

Beltran plays in one of the 3 toughest hitters parks in baseball. HIs first season in Shea, he played thru an injured quad that sapped his power and speed.

In Shea stadium, he is a near 1000 OPS player with 30+ SB speed.

In a neutral park like St Louis, he is a 1000+ OPS player. HIs road OPS was 1090 last year. He hit 26 HRs on the road.

TWENTY SIX HRs ON THE ROAD!

317 avg.

Shea Stadium is IMPOSSIBLE to hit in.

Happens all the time. Look back at Mets histroy.

Above avg hitters come to Shea, and flop on their faces. Only the absolute elite can come and post strong numbers.

Beltran didnt post strong numbers. He posted MVP numbers.

Also keep in mind he missed about a MONTH of the season due to a couple injuries.

Yes, he had a 15 day DL stint and missed a couple weeks at the end of the year, and hit FORTY ONE FUCING HRS in SHEA STADIUM.

Oh yea, and there's that whole GOLD GLOVE DEFENSE IN CENTERFIELD THING that CRUSHES PUJOLS and his bullshit gold glove at 1B.

THe WORST CF in baseball is better than the BEST 1B in the league defensively.

It's no comparison u jack offs.

By the way, next time u have a chance, take a peak at the Mets offensive stats with Beltran, and without.

THe media likes to give props to Reyes. Fuck Reyes.

The only reason that hacker sees a pitch is becuz of Beltran.

The Mets offense DIES when Beltran isnt in the lineup.

2) As for the Mets needing pitching.

Stop being morons.

Sure, I'd LOVE to hav a rotation of Johan, Oswalt, Halladay, Harang and Carlos Zambrano.

My point is, we dont NEED it to compete.

We can compete with what we got now.

To win in baseball, all u have to do is GET to the playoffs.

Once u get in, it's a TOTAL CRAPSHOOT. The hot hand wins.

Seven games is not enough for the better team to overcome all of the small nuances associated with this game. Too many luck driven factors come into play in a seven game series for the better team to win every time.

Becuz of the weakness in the NL, and the effect of playing in Shea Stadium, the Mets dont NEED a true Ace to make the playoffs.

Since the playoffs are a crapshoot, the Mets dont NEED a true ace to win in the playoffs.

THe cards have a true ace in Carpenter, but he was NOT the reason they won in the playoffs.

Catch my drift?

I think the Mets can make te playoffs without acquiring Johan Santana.

THATS my point.

Would johan help? Sure.

Do we NEED him to make the playoffs?

Absolutely not.

3) Oliver Perez's development has been a horror show hosted by the Pittsburgh Pirates.

I won't go into details on this one. I've already posted this story on anoter thread and many of the regulars here can vouch for me.

I went into great detail about what went wrong with Oliver Perez in Pittsburgh.

Bottom Line: He's a lefty with a mid 90's heater, a wicked slider, a wicked slurve, a decent 2 seamer and below average change up.

He has improving command of all of his pitches.

He's only 25 yrs old and had a reasonable shoulder injury following his breakout year wher he LEAD THE LEAGUE IN Ks PER NINE AT TWENTY FOUR YEARS OLD.

THe pirates overworkd him that year by allowing him to K 240 hitters in 200 innings at such a young age.

THe Mets have him going back to what made him successful.

Someone asked if Im basing this on "one good game".

First of all, Oliver Perez pitched a shutout vs the Braves during the reg season where he was aboslutely dominant.

In the playoff, his game 4 start was arguably better than his game 7 start if u know anything about how baseball works.

Oliver was lights out until the Mets took a big lead. After that lead, Oliver was throwing more heat and simply going after the hitters, which was when he got hit.

With the big lead, the Mets were forcing the Cards to swing the bat and make outs to save the pen. We could afford to surrender some runs with a big lead.

Anyway, the reason why I know an Oliver Perez is coming is becuz of what I saw him doing once he came to the Mets.

He gave up the bullshit curveball the Pirates were forcing him to throw.

He stopped trying to paint the black with every single pitch.

He went back to one of his older pitching motions, which the Pirates never let him use.

The Mets (Peterson?) simplified everything.

Oliver Perez stopped trying to be a finesse pitcher, and simply forced hitters to try to hit his WICKED ARSENAL.

Rick Peterson is famous for giving lefties a sinker or cutter, or improving them for his pitchers.

If he gives Oliver Perez a cutter, which would fit Oliver's arsenal perfectly, we are looking at a potential Cy Young.

If not, we are looking at a solid #3 with #1 upside.

Casual fans, as most of u are, arent going to understand half the shit I said here, altho it isnt that complicated. Most of you are simply not that bright.

This will makes sense to the hardcore baseball fans.

[bsox21]

As for the other NL East teams,

The Braves will be tough. Rafael Soriano for Horacia Ramrez was a coup.

If Chipper is healthy, and if Huddie can pitch like the #3 that he is, the Braves are going to be right there.

If Chipper goes down and if Huddies sucks, the Braves will eat the dust.

Chuck James will get hit harder now that the league ahs seen him, Hampton is a horse when healthy, but he's VERY hittable. At this point, the Braves would be lucky to get a league avg pitcher out of Hampton.

Smoltz is Smoltz.

Fuck the Braves.

The Phillies have a strong offense, but the rotation is just as iffy as the Mets, but they dont have the depth or the park or defense of the Mets to protect medicority on the mound.

Myers is a beast.

F Garcia is a horse, but the Mets have a number of arms that could conceivably pitch as well as Garcia.

Eaton.....dont make me laugh.

Moyer.....ditto Eaton.

Hamels......good pitcher, but can throw anywhere between 30-150 innings in 2007.

My guess is its more like 100.

Rollins and Howard drive the offense.

Burrell is dangerous, but if ur pitcher has deent stuff and his command, Burrell wont beat u.

Utley doesnt scare me at all. Take him out of Phillie, and he looks MUCH weaker.

Utely's stats are boosted by the phillie bandbox and batting around howard. Take him out of that park and drop him in LA, and he isnt that much better than Jose Valentin.

Tom Gordon is the only arm in the pen. The rest of their pen sucks.

The Nats.....

THe Marlins are the only squad that scares me.

The rotation is high upside and they hav the park and defense to hide mistakes, which also wrks for a below average pen which is also loaded with high upside arms.

If Petit and Olsen improve, the rotation is bad ass.

Hanley Ramirez is already arguably the best SS in the NL. (yes, i think he's better than Reyes and Im a mets fan.)

M Cab is a top 10 hitter in baseball.

THe guy that worries me is Hermida.

Hermida played thru injury last year and is MUCH better than what we saw last year.

He's going to break out, the only question is how BIG will he break out.

The Marlins are a bad ass team. No question about it.

[bsox21]

As for the other NL East teams,

The Braves will be tough. Rafael Soriano for Horacia Ramrez was a coup.

If Chipper is healthy, and if Huddie can pitch like the #3 that he is, the Braves are going to be right there.

If Chipper goes down and if Huddies sucks, the Braves will eat the dust.

Chuck James will get hit harder now that the league ahs seen him, Hampton is a horse when healthy, but he's VERY hittable. At this point, the Braves would be lucky to get a league avg pitcher out of Hampton.

Smoltz is Smoltz.

Fuck the Braves.

The Phillies have a strong offense, but the rotation is just as iffy as the Mets, but they dont have the depth or the park or defense of the Mets to protect medicority on the mound.

Myers is a beast.

F Garcia is a horse, but the Mets have a number of arms that could conceivably pitch as well as Garcia.

Eaton.....dont make me laugh.

Moyer.....ditto Eaton.

Hamels......good pitcher, but can throw anywhere between 30-150 innings in 2007.

My guess is its more like 100.

Rollins and Howard drive the offense.

Burrell is dangerous, but if ur pitcher has deent stuff and his command, Burrell wont beat u.

Utley doesnt scare me at all. Take him out of Phillie, and he looks MUCH weaker.

Utely's stats are boosted by the phillie bandbox and batting around howard. Take him out of that park and drop him in LA, and he isnt that much better than Jose Valentin.

Tom Gordon is the only arm in the pen. The rest of their pen sucks.

The Nats.....

THe Marlins are the only squad that scares me.

The rotation is high upside and they hav the park and defense to hide mistakes, which also wrks for a below average pen which is also loaded with high upside arms.

If Petit and Olsen improve, the rotation is bad ass.

Hanley Ramirez is already arguably the best SS in the NL. (yes, i think he's better than Reyes and Im a mets fan.)

M Cab is a top 10 hitter in baseball.

THe guy that worries me is Hermida.

Hermida played thru injury last year and is MUCH better than what we saw last year.

He's going to break out, the only question is how BIG will he break out.

The Marlins are a bad ass team. No question about it.

[Ripwa]

bsox

I don't see how you can just dismiss all stats that show how Pujols is better then Beltran. You act like Busch is a launching pad, but its not. Busch suppressed every offensive stat last year besides walks. Hell, Shea wasn't even the worst hitters park in New York and hasn't been 3 of the last 4 years. Pujols has a better RC/27, VORP, OPS, not to mention lead his team to win the WS. Even when you neutralize his stats, they are still far and away less the Pujols. He has been the best 1st basemen the past 3 years. You just complete disregard that fact because its "first base", well if you are going to attack peoples knowledge that premise shows your lack of knowledge. Clearly CF is harder but its not more important. Just because you write a lot doesn't make it correct. Find some stats that back something up instead of just saying things that aren't support by anything but you expert opinion.

[bsox21]

ripwa,

pay attention when u read.

Pujols has great stats over his career cuz he popped earlier..

Doesnt mean he will continue to improve, nor does it mean he's better than beltran NOW.

A player's worth is determined by their value relative to their alternative.

Where do u see me say Beltran has better offensive #s than Pujols?

What I am doing, is giving those numbers more context.

Measure their performance RELATIVE TO THEIR PEERS AT THEIR RESPECTIVE POSITIONS, and THEN u see the difference between these guys.

Beltran hasnt posted stats as good as Pujols, but he was playing Shea the past 2 years.

Stats dont tell the whole story, and if u think Yankee Stadium is tougher to hit in than Shea, than ur already completely ignorant about new york baseball.

As for Shea vs Busch stadium, dont make me laugh.

My primary argument is Beltran's numbers are GOOD ENOUGH to beat out Pujols overall when considering defense.

Put Beltran in a neutral park, and Beltran hits more or the same number of HRs as Pujols wiht a lower avg.

Beltran has great speed and elite baserunning ability. Pujols, not so much.

I dont want to talk about defense.

Juan Pierre just got a 50 million dollar contract, and idiots like u still come here and compare Pujols' #s to Beltran.

My lack of knowledge?

You post some interesting stuff here, but I forgot more about baseball than u.

Statistical analysis is great. It tells a compelling story, but it isnt the end all.

What stats dont take into account are injured quads. Player development.

Player peaking earlier than other.

Pujols peaked earlier than Beltran. Doesnt mean he will continue to improve.

By my book, Pujols is as good as he will ever be right now.

Beltran jumped up 2 tiers offensively in his career so far and is still only 28.

Going from a 700 OPS to an 800 OPS to a 900 OPS is a clear trend and a statistically significant improvement.

Carpenter's career stats are FAR below that of many inferior pitchers.

Today, Carpenter is arguably a top 5 pitcher in the game.

Kelvim Escobar peaked in his late twenties.His career stats look like shit.

Do a career statistical analysis of Jermaine Dye, and you would be completely ignorant of the type of player he is RIGHT NOW.

I believe in statistical analysis, but you cannot ignore the context in which those stats are generated. They are JUST as if not MORE telling than the stats alone.

Beltran is trending upward and is already an elite offensive performer STATISTICALLY.

The Mets are a top offense with Beltran and a bottom tier offense without him.

CHECK THE STATS.

[PeteRose]

"Utley doesnt scare me at all. Take him out of Phillie, and he looks MUCH weaker.

Utely's stats are boosted by the phillie bandbox and batting around howard. Take him out of that park and drop him in LA, and he isnt that much better than Jose Valentin."

Uh....but he is playing for the Phillies.......... and will be hitting in the 'bandbox' this season so................I guess...continue to be afraid. and last year he hit 16 on the road.

[Droptop]

bsox - Actually I think people would take you more seriously if you didn't talk like a child and spoke in coherent sentences. Swearing unnecassarily just makes you look like a teenager demanding attention...

"F the braves"
"Eaton...don't make me laugh"
Just talk sports, be specific, stop being scared to discuss something intelligently with every post because you do actually know what you're talking about in this thread. As for the "41 HR's while in Shea", why would you bring that up after saying 26 were on the road? That's more then half his HR's...and stop screaming about Shea killing good hitters, no one was arguing against that point. Read more closely before you just fly off the handle for no real reason. Yes, an entire year of Peterson with Perez and you COULD end up with a front end of the rotation guy anyway but you surely can understand why some would doubt it'll happen...

[bsox21]

peterose,

u are correct sir, he hit 16 HRs on the road.

he also posted an OPS 100 points lower on the road.

Which means, philly plays at home, the same offensive boost that he receives at home, will be given to the other team. When they play on the road, he turns into mark grudzalanek with 16 HRs.

Again, a players value is only worth their premium above their peers.

If his 900 OPS at home has to beat out similar production from seemingly lesser players becuz all offensive stats are boosted, then he is not as effective as it seems.

THe Philly offense will go as far as Rollins and Howard takes it.

The rest of the team is riding their coat tails.

[PeteRose]

"ripwa,

pay attention when u read..............
You post some interesting stuff here, but I forgot more about baseball than u."

This is amusing... your missing more than a few words.

[bsox21]

droptop,

i bring up his 41 HRs even with the 26 HR on the road, becuz the overall production is STILL impressive.

He did all this while having missed almost a month due to injury.

For the casual fan, 26 road HRs doesnt quite deliver the message.

41 HRs while playing half ur games in SHea, while missing a month due to injury, does a better job of delivering the message.

Also keep in mind, when u r able to hit 15 HRs at Shea, while ALSO hitting 26 on the road, that makes the argument even more in favor of BEltran.

15 HRs at Shea is no walk in the park so to speak.

[bsox21]

"This is amusing... your missing more than a few words."

all of u that tell me im abrasive, look back at this thread and see how much horseshit was posted by u assholes.

This is an informative post?

How many of my points did ripwa and peterose completely ignore.

when u learn a bit of courtesy and learn to intelligently debate a topic with class, u can expect to see me change my tone immediately.

until then, u can all fuck off.

[allabouthephils]

Bsox21,

You really just proved how little you actually know about baseball..... In one post you managed to say that a pitcher who has been completely horrible for the better part of two years a potential cy young candidate.. You managed to say that all 1st baseman are horrible defensively compared to center fielders ( which is just stupid)... You managed to call Chase " Im the best hitting 2nd baseman in baseball" Utley a bad hitter outside of Philly ??? You managed to say that Jamie Moyer was laughable when he would be the Mets number three starter...... Moyer is actually quite servicable. You managed to say that Shea was in the top three worst stadiums to hit in... First is Petco... Second is Safeco... Third is RFK.....4th is Dolphin Stadium in Florida... 5th would be Comerica in Detroit.... Get outta here ya retard.... Do your research and then post....

[Ripwa]

I'm not ignoring anything, you don't support any of your arguements with stats. You speak about positional value, well Pujols has a higher VORP. You say Busch is a laughable comparison, which i never said wasn't true, i said that Shea is not even close to the worst hitters park. You speak about defense, but you can't fault Pujols because he is 1st basemen, the Fielding Bible says he has been the best at his position and thats all he can do. I also don't understand how you know Beltran is going to get much better. Correct me if i'm wrong but he is 29. You talk about road stats but Pujols are just as good he has TWENTY FIVE home runs. So what exactly is better about Beltran? Likely hood of improvement? Well he is 29 while Pujols is 26 i think Pujols has a better chance of improving. Beltran hits in an awful park? Well Pujols doesn't hit in Minute Maid. He also has equal road stats, so he can't possibly be worse their. Defensively? Pujols is the best at his position, he can't do anything more. So i will ask again for just one stat that clearly shows how Beltran is better then Pujols.

[PeteRose]

"When they play on the road, he turns into mark grudzalanek with 16 HRs."

not Jose Valentin?

[bsox21]

Ripwa,

1) I would bet my testicles that u have no idea how VORP is calculated.

2) Look at Pujols' career progression.

Now look at Beltran.

Tell me who is trending upward and who looks like he has peaked.

3) I'll say it again becuz something is not getting through to u...

Someone is only worth as much as the improvment they provide over their alternative.

Tkae a bottom tier 1B and u get Lyle Overbay.

Overbay is a good fucking hitter.

Take the bottom tier CF and....well, i hope u get the picture.

Beltran's premium over the league avg CF is greter than Pujols' premium over th league avg 1B.

Berkman, Ortiz, Hafner, Howard...an endless list of names provide arguably the same chance of winning as Pujols.

Nobody compares to Beltrna in CF.

Sizemore is good. I love Vernon Wells.

Neither can keep up with Beltran.

Andruw Jones can play as well as Beltrn when he wants to, but he is simply TOO talented to try that hard every day, so he chooses to be almost as good as Beltran.

Thats the end of the list in CF.

Heck, Nick Johnson is arguably as effective offesnively as Grady Sizemore and Vernon wells, and he is not even an above avg 1B.

[Ripwa]

I keep reading your posts and they are almost comical. I made no reference to career stats, this years stats are far better. You talk about trends. This year good, last year bad, 2004 played most of his games in one of the best hitters park so being good isn't a surprise. I don't see a trend. But maybe thats because i am not so jaded by my allegiance to a team.

[allabouthephils]

It's comparing apples and oranges really.... Pujols is in a class all by himself these days... No one and I mean no one.... Not Ryan Howard, not Carlos Beltran, not Vernon Wells or Jose Reyes can compare to Albert Pujols... He is the most feared hitter in baseball today.... He is the most complete hitter today... I won't go into all the stats to back it up... It's late and im drinking lol....

[bsox21]

by the way, i meant to add,

take a look at VORP rankings, and tell me if u would use that list to build ur baseball team.

you'd be a laughing stock.

VORP is an interesting stat, but hardly telling of a players effectiveness on the baseball field on its own.

[PeteRose]

If you have any questions about a lack of corespondents, other than a general amusement, you needn't look any further than you're own posts.

"until then, u can all fuck off."

[Ripwa]

You base me not knowing what VORP on what? Because you are a hothead that is proven wrong all the time but is so immature that he can't admit defeat. Aren't you the guy that said you would take Reyes over any player in the league a while ago. Hell, the Mets should win it all. The two best player and a future Ace in Perez, whos ERA is plus 6 both pre and post all-star break.

[allabouthephils]

true true true...... you have alieniated everyone that used to read your posts..... I actually thought your level of intellect was rather high on baseball...Until you started ranting and crying like a little bitch every second someone said the Mets had no pitching staff or weren't going to make the playoffs.. I have a couple of words for ya....Shut the fuck up you loser... Go get off your mothers computer and out of your mothers basement and go to high school... 15 year old babies should be in school..... Oh yeah, possibly some zit cream and a penis pump will help cause you obviously need some help gettin the ladies.... Im sure mommy will pack your lunch for ya and send you off to the bus stop...

[allabouthephils]

Oliver Perez= next Sandy Koufax

Carlos Beltran= next Willie Mays

Jose Reyes= we don't know yet....bsox21 isn't through changing his mind every week based on what makes him win the arguement....

bsox21= al bundy and homer simpson without jobs or wives sitting on the couch in his moms basement eating stale potato chips and drinking curdled milk while watching reruns of mash at 3 oclock in the afternoon on a wednesday.... keep pretending you know anything about baseball lol...

[bsox21]

TO anyone that hasnt been involved in this discussion...

Take a look at all my posts, and look at the last 4 responses to me.

That tells the whole story.

Go Aheard Ripwa,

Look it up, and tell us how VORP is defined.

1) My guess is u wont be back for 3 days with a definition.

2) U wont understand it even when u have it front of u.

3) I'll even tell u where to find the forumula.

Hardball Times.

Stop quoting stats when u dont even know how the fuck they're calculated.

[bsox21]

Ripwa,

By the way, I NEVER said I'd take Jose Reyes over anyone.

Its pretty obvious now that u were a shitty poster in disguise.

Im happy to uncover ur horseshit.

The number of interesting posters here just went down by one.

[bsox21]

I will leave at this.

Some people will not be convinced that Pujols is anything but the best.

for obvious reasons, this is quite understandable. Pujols is absolutely amazing.

For me, I would prefer to build a team with Beltran and Lyle Overbay than Pujols and Juan Pierre.

If this doesnt make any sense to you, then so be it.

If you are remotely intelligent, I think its fair to say that I have at least planted a seed of doubt in ur mind as to who the best is.

Even if you think PUjols is the best, you cant say that a strong argument for Beltran cannot be made.

If u can acknowledge that it isnt out of the question that Beltran's name belongs in the discussion of best player in the league, then I have achieved my goal.

If you can say, "Id start a team with Pujols over Beltran, but Beltran's name would be top 5 on my list.", then I have achieved my goal.

When u get to this level of talent, u really cant lose.

Can a winning team be built around Pujols?

Of course.

Can a winning team be built around Beltran?

Absolutely, and if u ask me and many other people, it would be easier to do with Beltran than with Pujols.

Either way, u cant lose.

Dont take this as me disliking Pujols. He is obviously absolutely sick.

Bottom line: with guys like Delgado, Berkman, Ortiz, Howard, Morneau, Overbay, Willingham, Nick Johnson, Fielder, Garciaparra, DERREK LEE (who is by FAR a better defender than Pujols), Laroche, Sexson, Giambi, Kendrick, Helton, KOnerko, and on and on and on and on and on......

I want the gold glove CF.

Seriously, look at that list of alternatives at 1B.

You have BEASTS up and down, and the bottom tier options are some pretty good fucking hitters.

Thats just me.

[stormstarter28]

Bsox-
Let me get this straight...
Beltran is better than Pujols because you say he is, not because of statistics. Yes, Shea is bigger than Busch. That doesn't make Beltran better. Yes first basemen are better hitters than center fielders (usually). That also doeesn't make Beltran better. You want us to ignore the fact that Pujols is 3 years younger and consistently better than Beltran statistically every season. I'm sorry, I won't believe Beltran is better just because you say so. I don't think there is anyone else in baseball who would agree with you.

[quintjs]

I really like this point by bsox:

"If you can say, "Id start a team with Pujols over Beltran, but Beltran's name would be top 5 on my list.", then I have achieved my goal."

Interesting post, I guess its technically correct, but its worth noting the world series rings of both Pujols and Beltran.

I would probably agree with rather building a team around Overbay and Beltran than Pujols and Pierre, but since when were those my only choices? I would rather build a team around Jeter and Howard, than around Beltran and Overbay.

Man, you read that list of your first baseman, and it reads impressive, but there is a huge difference between a Pujols, Howard or Ortiz compared to the rest of them.

[beeniez]

"2) Look at Pujols' career progression.

Now look at Beltran.

Tell me who is trending upward and who looks like he has peaked."

Albert Pujols is still developing. His power is increasing, his strikeouts are reducing, and defense has really matured.

Beltran is good, but I can think of a lot more players I'd rather start a franchise with. Beltran isn't even the best centerfielder. His average and power is inconsistent, terrible at home (.225 AVG), and he has a monster mole on the side of his face.

Good hitting centerfielders are definitely harder to come by than first basemen, but that doesn't make him a better player. Rarer? Yes. Better? Nope. You don't win championships because you're a rare player.

[beeniez]

The Mets went from trying to land D-Mat to Barry Zito, Barry Zito to Haren, Haren to Harden, Harden to Blanton, Blanton to Jorge Sosa. Ouch. At least Trachsel isn't there anymore!

[bsox21]

"and he has a monster mole on the side of his face."

Great argument.

I love the nameless CF-ers that outperform Beltran too.

Awesome. You had me at "hello".

[quintjs]

D-mat to Zito, Haren..

beeniez makes a great point, the Mets have been searching for that starting pitching and cannot find it. I don't really care they have enough to win their division, thats cool and all and a great achievement, but they want the World Series, and they don't have the pitching to win a World Series. That found that out in 2006. Look at the rotations in the AL, Yanks, Red Sox, White Sox, Tigers, Angels etc etc. The AL will put up some strong pitching in the next world series. Also the Mets have to worry about a Wild Card team like the Marlins, who have great young pitching, who could shut down the Mets a couple of times in the postseason if on form.

As for Beltran, if you had him, you need offense elsewhere, because he does not have the offensive power of a Pujols. If you have Pujols, you really don't care who your CF is as long as they can catch and throw a baseball.

[Droptop]

bsox - Why do you consistantly take 5-6 posts before stating your point specifically and clearly? As for "you can all F off" I was the one who called you out for being childish and I have never exchanged insults with you, there will ALWAYS be something to be said for the guy who takes the higher road...

I understand your argument(s) for Beltran and yes he's a top CF in Baseball but if you asked all the MLB managers who their first pick would be to build a team around(talking non-pitchers), Pujols would go first at least 7 out of 10 times. Beltran would be lucky to get picked once(as the first player), even after an MVP type season like '06. As for Pujols peaking and Beltran not, Pujols is younger and people have been talking about how he's improving every year so that argument isn't exactly "swallowable".

If you have Beltran in your top 5, seemingly ahead of Pujols(#1), who is your top 5?

[Droptop]

Don't list Hafner or Ortiz as a 1B, they're DH's, that would be like listing Frank Thomas as a 1B...could make a case that Giambi isn't a 1B either but I wont.

You said Kendrick, if you're listing the guy on the Angels he's a 2B, he just played a lot of 1B last year because they had no one else.

[Droptop]

Honestly beeniez, who brings up looks when talking about a player? Sports in general are filled with ugly faced people but no one ever mentions it or talks about it because it's pointless.

[bsox21]

My Top 5 Players I'd build a franchise around:

1) Carlos Beltran - He didnt get credit for it, but he was the heart of the Mets offense.

Hes only 28 and an elite offensive producer and plays gold glove D at a premium position.

There is nothing on a baseball field he cannot do.

2) Miguel Cabrera

He's Manny Ramirez reincarnated and if the Marlins would leave him alone at 3B instead of fucking with him, he'll become a top defensive 3B as well.

3) Johan

Nuff said.

4) Felix Hernandez

You might look at him and think he has "potential".

I know the stats.

If the Mariners didnt force him to throw 80% fastballs in the first 2 innings of every game, his 2006 stats would have been fantastic.

A no doubt innings eating stud. He will make Carlos Zambrano look like a #2 within a couple years.

5) Arod

yea yea yea....blah blah blah....

He's arguably the best SS that ever stepped on the field.

[bsox21]

"bsox - Why do you consistantly take 5-6 posts before stating your point specifically and clearly?"

Look at the responses I get on this message board.

Even when I spell things out very simply, I get moronic responses that completely miss the point.

Ripwa is one of the closest things to a remotely intelligent person on this board, and he has still failed to respond to the heart of my argument.

I dont know why I post here.

Look at the idiot who said he'd take Jeter and Ortiz or whoever it was over Beltran and Overbay.

He completely missed the fucking point.

It's frightening that you people are allowed to vote. Honestly.

[METS07]

THIS IS FOR THE PHILLIEs FANS: first of all you can talk ish all day about the mets starting rotation, but why dont we look at the phillies for a second lol Garcia thats all you got what was his era last year? around 4.50...and dont even say "thats because he was pitching in the american league" the mets have an american league line-up tell me one national league team line-up that compares?????? I'm still waiting as far as the mets pitching this year ITS BETTER THAN THE PHILLIES, liber is good for 8 wins, meyers whos probably the best on the staff is good for 12 wins tops, the mets have so many pitchers looking trying to get a job that they can switch it up like the did last year and still walk away with the divison, and i'M NOT HATING i like ryan howard and chase but they are not going to carry an entire team. The Phillies focus this offseason should have been alfonzo soriano, they need another big bat in the line-up.. and the marlins have a very scrappy team the mets have some prospects that are going to step it up much like the marlins last season!!

[bravesbeast]

Here, just for the hell, of it, Andruw is a better player than Beltran or Pujols.

[bobo]

Just some advice everyone: I made it a point to stop making direct replies to bsox (and nrmax). I just don't appreciate being cursed at and the general level of immaturity. My life is simpler now! Of the time I spend thinking and writing about baseball, I waste less time on petty arguments. I highly recommend the same strategy, for the good of everyone, and this site.

To have at least something on topic, I'll echo what many others have said:

The Mets could be in for a rude awakening this year. This rotation has an enormous amount of downside. And counting on Oliver Perez to have a breakout year just screams of desperation.

[METS07]

how could you compare jones to puljols if you are talking about hitting jones is going downhill but he is the best in cf i won't deny that Braves suck tho

[Thrillhouse26]

I would definitely swap Pujols in and bump out A-rod or felix. A-Rod if he could still play SS would be in no doubt. But out if he couldn't play better 3B than last year and he is eldest of the group. Felix i like alot though Just 3-4 years ago he was what Liriano was a year ago and Hughes is now. Seattle really shines that media spotlight on ya.

Pujols is about to hit 27 so perhaps he has another plateau to reach. And it's not really fair to knock a guy for plateau-ing at a 1.100 OPS.
And I don't pretend to know for sure but Pujols played LF passably before I believe. I know he has had foot problems but if Bonds, and Burrell can do it I have to think Albert couldn't be that much worse.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

If he still could play SS??? It's not his ability that is stoping him. He might be a toolbox but he is still the hands down best SS in the game. No taking Joe Mauer to start a franchise with?? Batting title, 23 at freaking catcher makes 300k. Plus as his boss I would invite his ridiculously hot girlfriend up into the sky box....Yoink.

[beeniez]

Andruw Jones and Vernon Wells have the leadership quality to lead a franchise. Beltran can perform like an elite player, he just doesn't have that "umph" to carry a team.

"Blah, blah, look at the stats with him in and with him out." I just feel that that's a coincidence. Because there's too many other good hitters in that lineup that they don't need to rely on Beltran being in there. And don't forget, he choked under pressure in the playoffs.

My top five franchise starters:
1. Albert Pujols - pretty much a given.
2. Johan Santana - another given.
3. Derek Jeter - doesn't have the stats, but has proved time and time again that he can win and is extremely clutch.
4. A-Rod - Consistently puts up amazing numbers and is very durable. A hateable Hank Aaron if you will.
5. Carlos Zambrano - he's his own worst enemy. Very young and extremely talented.

Honorable mentions: Jose Reyes, Andruw Jones, Derek Lee, the King, David Wright, and Vladimir.

The mole thing was a joke. C'mon people! Where's your sense of humor? Moley, moley, moley. Nobody? Okay nevermind.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

Hank Aaron was hated a lot.

Now that your franchise payroll is 100 million dollars, with 5 positions filled, have fun with the rest.

[bsox21]

Beltran is a choker now huh?

.978 OPS in the 2006 playoffs.

Holds the ALL TIME record for most HRs in a playoff series.

Yea, big time choker there.

[beeniez]

Who said anything about payroll? Where was I when they handed me the Nationals? And how do you know I'm not the Red Sox or Yankees, who can afford all that and then some?

Hank Aaron was hated because he was black and about to break a beloved record - not very good reasons to hate someone. A-Rod is hated because he's a douchebag.

My cost-conscious top 5:
1. Miguel Cabrera
2. Justin Morneau
3. Hanley Rameriz
4. King Felix
5. Verlander

[beeniez]

"Beltran is a choker now huh?

.978 OPS in the 2006 playoffs.

Holds the ALL TIME record for most HRs in a playoff series.

Yea, big time choker there."

That happened against the Braves, and I think you'll agree that wasn't the most pressurized series he's ever played in.

He had the sole opportunity to win the series and advance to the World Series and he couldn't even swing the bat. He looked at three pitches. Did he blow it and that's why the Mets lost? Of course not. I didn't mean to imply that he was just a choker and he sucks. He's an amazing player and I'll always have a hatred for him for what he did to my Braves in 2004. But he DID choke.

[stormstarter28]

Bsox- "Beltran is the best player in the league".
This statement is why you are getting so much crap from everyone.
You say he's a better player than Pujols simply because he plays a different position. Beltran has 1 gold glove in 8 seasons. ONE. Yes, center field is more important defensively than first base, but his defense does not make up for the fact that he has 50 fewer homers than Pujols with 2 more seasons in the league, a career batting average 50 points lower than Pujols, career OBP 60 points lower...the stats go on and on. Not to mention the fact that he's 3 years older than Pujols.
If you're going to make your argument based on hitting by position, you would say that Mauer is the best player in baseball.
Just answer this question...do you at least understand why 99.9% of baseball fans would disagree with you on this one?

[METS07]

top 5 hitters (not homerun all around hitters)

1. pujols
2. derek lee (if healthy)
3. Ichiro
4. Jeter
5. Ryan Howard

[Ripwa]

I'm not going to define VORP, anyone can look it up. But i will say one thing about it. It is one of the very few stats that normalize the stats factoring out Park Factor. So you saying Shea to Busch is no comparison doesn't really matter in that stat, since all the stats start at an equal playing field. I don't really care if you think i'm intelligent to be frank. I dont' understand your arguements at all. You say you want Beltran over Pujols because of defense and chance to improve, but put Arod on your top 5 and not Pujols. Arods stats are not improving after age of 32, plus he has proven to be a less then average defensive third basemen. Arods ZR is hilarious. Oh yea, I love you and your love for Beltran, you know so much about him. Buddy, he isn't 28, he is actually 29 and will be 30 by May. You can't even get the simplest of things right. But i'm the dumb one.

[b_diddy_7]

METS07, that's a bad list. And you say no home runs but then you say "all-around". Aren't home runs a part of an all-around hitter? Anyways, any list that says "all-around" and doesn't have Hafner in it shouldn't be acknowledged at all.

[Ripwa]

I don't even know if bsox is still looking at this but i need to point out one last stat. Look at Win Shares this year. Pujols beat Beltran by 3, which is a pretty large amount. And to combat the idea Beltran is improving look at his Win Shares over the years, 2 18 5 27 20 28 29 21 34. I see no trend at all. I see fluctuations at every turn.

[nrmax88]

"Aren't you the guy that said you would take Reyes over any player in the league a while ago."

No, that was me, but that isnt exactly what I said. I said I wouldnt trade Reyes for Pujols given the Mets current roster, because my arguement is, as reyes goes, the mets go. Bsox has made the arguement for Beltran. I have tried to explain my earlier statement in a similar way to bsox by saying, after Beltran , Wells, Sizemore, and Jones, how many elite CF are there, or even guys who can put up comparable offensive and defensive numbers to Beltran. There are more comparable alternatives to Pujols at 1B then there will ever be for Beltran at CF. This doesnt mean he will put up better numbers. I look at it this way. If you can have Beltran or Pujols, but you can only choose 1, and then you can have any other CF or 1B to choose from, excluding the top 3 or 4 at every position. I would rather have Beltran and D Lee, or Prince Feilder, or Johnson, even Mike Jacobs. The middle tier 1B are much better then the middle tier CFs. Ill take Beltran and and overbay/ fielder, before I take Pujols and Gary Matthews JR

[nrmax88]

quintjs, honestly, the mets pitching isnt what cost them a WS, or the NLCS or whatever. They had guys likeOliver Perez and JohnMaine step up and pitch good games. Glavine had 2 very servicable starts. Trachsels start was the only awful start we saw in that series. The cards pitching wasnt exactly dynamite either. Jeff Weaver looked like Oliver Perez for most of the season, then turned it all around in the playoffs. Jeff Suppan, a servicable guy, but by no means a dominant pitcher, went out and dominated 2 games. The real problem the Mets had was their bats went into hiding. Thru the whole series (and the whole regular season really) the mets stranded a lot of baserunners. They also scored lots of runs in the regular season so it didnt really matter. I wouldnt say it was their pitching that cost them their WS chance. Once endy made "the catch"
and we didnt score the next inning with the bases loaded the game was pretty mcuh over. We had our chance, and im fine with that, because of the simple fact that 1 hit short of a WS appearance is pretty good for a team who won 71 games 2 seasons ago and was considered a joke. What happened to that dominant tigers pitching when the WS came calling. They went into hiding also. The best pitching team didnt win the WS. As Jim Leyland said, its not the best team that wins, its the team that gets on a roll at the right time. The mets still have all of their core pieces in Reyes, Wright and Beltran. Is there a chance the Mets struggle with their rotation this year and have to fight all season just for a shot at the postseason? Sure there is. Would i rather struggle thru 1 season while waiting for the 2 top pitching prospects to develop in Humber and Pelfrey? Damn Right. Its a better option to have a weak rotation for 1 year then to trade Pelfrey for a bum like Joe Blanton for a chance to win NOW, while gambling away the future. Is there also a chance that Glavine pitches like Glavine, El Duque repeats last years performance, Maine is a year better, perhaps learned a new pitch and becomes a true #3, Perez bounces back and the Mets dominate? Sure, they are all possible. If Glavine and Duque can be solid, one of Maine / Perez / Humbver/Pelfrey/ Vargas or one these guys steps up to hold down the fort until the return of Pedro, Im pretty sure the offense can carry most of the load for most of the year.

[nrmax88]

bobo, u love talking about me dont u sweetie? I find it flattering. I havent even acknowledged u in like 2 weeks and u still find ways to bring me up in conversations. Thats really cute man. Do u also want some naked pictures of me? Am i going to start getting weird phone calls late at night?

[nrmax88]

yes bobo, but the yankees have an easy road to the playoffs because theyre the yankees an the playoffs arent allowed to start until the yankees make it in. It is hilarious to me how ignorant yankee fans are. They think its their birthright to win the Al east every year. The redsox have a bigger margin of talent over the yankees staff then the phillies staff does over the mets. You talk about the mets relying on Oliver PErez, atleast he is already a met. Were not relying on some hot headed psychopath that isnt even on our roster. Keep waiting for the rocket to come and save the day. I just fidn it funny that the Mets division will be easier for them to fight thru then it will be for the yankees to fight thru the redsox and bluejays. Keep thinking the yankees are gaurunteed a playoff spot and that Roger is coming though.

[nrmax88]

beeniez i like your post About your top 5 guys. I also agree that Beltran isnt really a leader. You also cant knock a guy for this, leadership skills come in your personality, if you arent a leader, then your just not. Its really not something that can be taught. I do have a beef where you say he choked in the playoffs. Look at his career playoff numbers. He is not a choker. Wainwright just threw and unhittable pitch. He also did carry Houston for the half year he played there. It is true though, that Beltran is more of a missing piece to the puzzle, and not the key piece.

[stormstarter28]

You Beltran-lovers are silly. By your standards, Pujols would have to hit .400 with 65 home runs to be a "better player" than Beltran. Is Joe Mauer better than Pujols because he dominates his position?
All that talk about taking Beltran and Overbay over Pujols and Matthews...unfortunately that's not how baseball works. You're trying to punish Pujols for playing first base (even though he came up as an outfielder, and would have become a damn good one if the Cards didn't need him at first).
Will you at least admit that Pujols is a better hitter?

[beeniez]

Ehhh. I guess "choked" is a strong word. I just think if that was a regular season game and a more relaxed environment, he would have won/tied the game.

[nrmax88]

Im not trying to punish pujols for anything. Im just trying to show both sides of the arguement. Im not saying Pujols isnt by far the best hitter in the league. But bsox does bring up a point. If he didnt atleast put an idea in your head then you are just a biased cards fan. But it is an interesting point.Would you take Pujols and Gary Matthews over Delgado and Beltran? Just a simple question. Doesnt mean you have to agree with what he was saying, but can you atleast see the arguement that he was making? Even just a little bit. He was just trying to say that if he could make some people ponder the idea a little bit then he did what he was trying. I understand that people are still going to have their opinions. I dont even necesarrily agree with what bsox was trying to say, but I can see where he is coming from, and why he is trying to make the point that he was trying to make.

[stormstarter28]

Why Matthews and Delgado? Why not Andruw Jones and Pujols vs. Beltran and LaRoche?
With your quesition, I would be taking Delgado over Matthews for obvious reasons.
Another point I already made was that Pujols shoud have played outfield, so if the Cards had someone like Delgado on their team Pujols would have been in the outfield.
And yes, I see the point he was TRYING to make, but his argument does not make me (or anyone else here) think Beltran is a better player.

[nrmax88]

because the point im trying to make is that if u take the top 4 CF and the top 4 1B ok, and you can choose one player out of that group of guys to have on your team say in the first pick of a draft. If you take Beltran or andruw jones, then you will still be able to get a delgado or d LEe sort of player with your next pick. If you took pujols, there is now way you are going to be able to grab beltran or jones or sizemore or wells. Im not saying i agree or disagree with you. Im just trying to show you both sides.

[nrmax88]

Maybe not the best player, but because of the lack of comparable players at the same position as him, then his value rises. Pujols may have more talent, but the fact is there are more guys 1B that comes close statistically to pujols then there are CF that can compare with beltran, there is really only wells , andruw, and sizemore that u can compare to eachother.

[stormstarter28]

Yeah, I understand all that, but you're arguing that Beltran is better because center fielders aren't as good as first basemen at the plate...you have both ignored my point about Mauer...according to your little strategy, Mauer is a "better player" than Pujols because he dominates his position. Please respond to this.

[stormstarter28]

Why is it so hard to get a response to this comment...3 times it has been ignored. According to bsox, Beltran is better than Pujols because he dominates his position...how is that any different from saying Mauer is better than Pujols? It's a simple question.

[nrmax88]

Why would you ask me that, im not the one saying that he is better. Im neutrally showing his side of the arguement. You say according to bsox, i am not bsox so why would you ask me this? I AM NOT ARGUING BELTRAN IS BETTER. I stated 2 or 3 times that Pujols may well be the more talented player, but you can consider the best player in the league, the guy who has the best blend of skills, and if there are a lack of good players at this players position, that would increase his value, making him more valuable to teams. Like pitching, the less of it there is, the more valuable the remaining pitchers become. Im not saying I agree with what bsox is saying, but he can make a fair arguement, which was what his main point was.

[stormstarter28]

Ok, well we got on different pages somewhere down the road, because all I ever argued was the idea that Beltran was the better player. Simple miscommunication (it happens way too often on here, don't you think?)

[Ripwa]

To say that Pujols is less then Beltran because of his loaded position is an awful arguement on 2 levels. 1) Its not his fault that more solid players play 1st. You can't punish him because of players on other teams. 2) Only 3 of the top 20 in Win Shares are 1st basemen. That is less then shortstops. So I believe it is you all that are buying too much into the hype as bsox told everyone at the start of this. Here is a stat of all contributing factor and 1st base isn't the most loaded. So to say 1st base is loaded isn't exactly the truth. (Pujols lead the league in Win Shares by the way). So this arguement is dumb. Maybe you can argue Beltran should be payed more because he is a harder player to replace, but in no way is that saying he is better. Pujols is far and away the best player in baseball and ALL stats show that.

[wmk51]

Bsox,

I read most of the stuff you've been posting and just wanted to give some feedback.

The point you are arguing is pointless. Everyone knows Beltran is a top 5 CF, he is a 5 too player and one of the most well rounded players in the game. I would have to say his only flaw is inconsistancy.

Pujols is hands down the best player in the game, he is an MVP, has been 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting the past 5 years? He has also won a World Series Championship.

You cannot make an argument that Beltran is a better player until he wins an MVP or a championship.

Your whole peaking argument is also flawed. Pujols peaked early in his career so he has less future value!? The man has consistanly put out MVP quality years for 5 years in a row!!! He shows no sign of slowing down and to assume he will is foolish.

I won't even go into your comparison of CF's vs 1B. If there are more high quality 1B than high quality CFs, and Pujols is the BEST 1B in the game, that gives hime more credit for succeeding in a talent congested position.

[beeniez]

I think what he's trying to say that is that Pujols' production can be replaced a lot easier than Beltran's. That still doesn't make him the best player. I can think of a lot more players I'd rather have.

Beltran can carry a team with his performace, but that can only be done for a limited time - like a series or even a month. If he had that leadership quality and influence, he'd be more of a franchise player. But when you think of franchise players, Beltran just doesn't come to mind.

[Jimbo]

wow, when I first starting reading this post I sat there and said to myself, "this bsox guy really is an idiot" a real homer. I would take Pujols before Beltran in a heartbeat and to even say otherwise is showing your just being a homer. I would much rather take a Rocco Baldelli paired with Pujols then wasting high pick in a draft on Beltran and then just "picking someone else in a stacked position."
If I was to start a team and had one pick to build my team around, it would not be either of these two. I could tell you who it is but it was just cause further argument because this person needs to be watched day in and day out to truly be appreciated.
Theres no way in hell I blow a top 5 pick on a streaky as shit player in Beltran. if your going on pure stats at the end of the season theres still multiple people in front of beltran.
Also you have to remember Pujols was on an absolute TEAR before he got shut down with an oblique strain. in case you dont know, with an oblique strain, it hurts every time you swing the bat hard. Pujols missed 16 games due to this injury while on one of the hottest hitting streaks I've seen from anyone. On another note, Pujols played 3 more games than Beltran but struck out half as many times :-0 (haha this is true but was thrown in here as a joke just to point out how some people like to throw out random stats just to try to prove their point)

"Just some advice everyone: I made it a point to stop making direct replies to bsox (and nrmax). I just don't appreciate being cursed at and the general level of immaturity. My life is simpler now! Of the time I spend thinking and writing about baseball, I waste less time on petty arguments. I highly recommend the same strategy, for the good of everyone, and this site."

Thanks for being wise, anyone notice how little I've been showing up on this site lately? I've been here, just avoiding people on here because they ruin the nice calm debates that are baseball discussions.