Pirates Acquire LaRoche For Gonzalez

UPDATE: A source tells me the Pirates included shortstop Brent Lillibridge in the trade, and it's a four-player deal.  That's quite a price - Baseball Prospectus's PECOTA system indicates that the college product would be baseball's ninth best shortstop in 2007 (based on projected WARP).

The above info is now confirmed by John Perrotto of the Beaver County Allegheny Times.  The Braves are sending outfielder Jamie Romak to the Bucs to complete the deal. 

According to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the Pirates have agreed to send Mike Gonzalez and another unknown player to the Braves for first baseman Adam LaRoche.  Nice to finally put the daily LaRoche rumors to rest.  Given the inclusion of Lillibridge, I'd say the Braves won another deal here. 

Check out RotoAuthority to read the fantasy implications of this deal.

Comments

[tyler]

What would it take to get Gonzalez from Atlanta?

[dan1to]

wow... nice signing for the Pirates. Not that the Braves are getting screwed, but the Pirates needed another bat.

[DirtyFreddy]

LaRoche for Gonzalez + Cota...
That's an even deal. Cota is probably one of the top 100 catchers in the league.

I can hope can't I?

[bravesbeast]

Whew, finally this crap is over with, I have a feeling though that if it is not duffy, we spin gonzalez to get a leadoff hitter who is a leftfielder, but even if we keep gonzalez and get castillo, im a happy man.

[boomshwa12]

wow, mike gonzalez's profile says the pirates originally got him and freddy sanchez from the red sox for jeff suppan, brandon lyon, and a no name prospect. how stupid does that make the sox look right now?

[nrmax88]

What should we expect from Thorman this year? I have heard some say he will be able to step right in and put up similar number to laroche. Others have said that he isnt quite ready to play everyday. Are Prado and Johnson legit replacements for Giles? Oh and whos gona lead off for the bravos?

[Mick Kraut]

boomshwa12,

Gonzalez was drafted by PGH...was traded to BOS for Brandon Lyon and Anastasio Martinez, then when Lyon's elbow appeared to be injured, the deal was partially undone to include Jeff Suppan to BOS and brought Freddy Sanchez to PGH, so Littlefield almost let him go for very little a couple of seasons ago...

[jpcrecom]

Boomshwa, that's not an actual trade.

The Red Sox got Gonzalez from Pitt in a deal where they sent Lyon. Lyon's physical came back that he had an injury, and so the Sox offered to rescind/amdend the trade giving back Gonzalez and taking back Lyon

[greenbaydude1232]

who becomes the closer? torres or capps?

[allabouthephils]

Good deal for the Braves... They have one of the nastiest bullpens in the league now.... Soriano in the 7th, Gonzalez in the 8th and Wickman in the 9th.... As a Phils fan, Im not looking forward to that......

[RotoAuthority]

Some fantasy baseball implications here if you're interested.

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2007/01/quick_implicati.html

[boomshwa12]

o my bad nvm

[Mick Kraut]

oh and Martinez was returned to BOS in the deal as well...

From Baseball Reference:
"July 22, 2003: Traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates with Scott Sauerbeck to the Boston Red Sox for Brandon Lyon and Anastacio Martinez.

July 31, 2003: Traded by the Boston Red Sox with Freddy Sanchez and cash to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Brandon Lyon, Jeff Suppan, and Anastacio Martinez. "

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gonzami02.shtml

[stormstarter28]

Thank God this deal is finally done so I don't have to hear the freakin' rumors anymore!!!

[wmk51]

Hah, this deal makes me happy. It weakens the Pirates in the NL Central and adds competition for the Mutts in the East :)

[DonCoburleone]

Wow, I wonder how much of this may be a cost-cutting move for the Braves. The arbitration numbers were initiated yesterday and suddenly LaRoche gets traded today? Seems too coincidental to me... I bet the other player is a minor leaguer, even though Scheurholz insisted on 2 major-league ready players from Pitt. The demands of Laroche's salary may have forced Scheurholz to get less in return than he wanted... Damn cheap ass Time Warner, wheres Ted Turner when you need him?

[was385]

I'm thinking Capps takes over, high 90's FB and probably the best control of any reliever in baseball make him a prime candidate. Also, it isn't like the Pirates will be competing this year so they should get a young guy comfortable in this role.

As for allaboutthephils, this is going to make the best 7-8-9 BP in all baseball I think. Wickman is Wickman and will get the save and Soriano and Gonzalez are two of the most dominant relievers in baseball, plus it now gives us another lefty. We sucked in one run games because our pen, now with a healthy rotation and as disgusting a pen as you'll see in the NL if not baseball, this team is going places. Thorman is a capable 30 HR guy with normal playing time I think, but I will miss Laroche's glove at first.

[nrmax88]

LOL, all the sudden the braves pen is nasty.Sure, you have 7/8/9 guys, what about everyone else? I like my pen, deeper and better, but I guess we will have to wait and see. What if Soriano is never the same after the line shot off his dome. Wickman is no spring chicken either. Gonzo has had an injury history. Only time will tell.

[DonCoburleone]

nrmax, are you the dirty Muts fan?

[DonCoburleone]

"Sure, you have 7/8/9 guys, what about everyone else?"

Yates, McBride, Paronto, Boyer, Villareal, Cormier - I'd say that's plenty of backup for the best 7-8-9 trio in baseball...

[stormstarter28]

nrmax, your pen is neither deeper nor better, and everyone knows it. I think even you know it.

[allabouthephils]

I think id still take Neshek, Nathan, Rincon and Crain or Rodney, Zumaya and Jones but the Braves are right up there... The Mets aren't in the conversation... They can't compare.....

[DonCoburleone]

nrmax, admit it, this move makes you nervous...

[allabouthephils]

Lets not forget about Calero, Duscherer and Street either...... They are pretty nasty in Oakland.....

[tyler]

Proctor-Farnsworth-Rivera will blow less leads after the 6th inning then Soriano-Gonzalez-Wickman

[DonCoburleone]

"I think id still take Neshek, Nathan, Rincon and Crain or Rodney, Zumaya and Jones but the Braves are right up there... The Mets aren't in the conversation... They can't compare.."

Agreed that the Tiger's pen is still better, forgot about those guys. But the Mets pen has definately fallen behind the Braves. Mike Gonzalez is a younger version of Billy Wagner, and he's not even going to be closing for us!

[DonCoburleone]

Actually, I live in So. Cal, and the Angels with Speier-Shields-KROD is definately pretty potent also...

[allabouthephils]

NO WAY IN HELL I take proctor farnsworth and rivera over any of the fore mentioned pens... that's just crazy talk......

Proctor Farnsworth and Rivera lol... thanks for the laugh

[greenbaydude1232]

uh guys...dont forget about boston, kc, stl, tb, who else am i forgetting?

HAHAHAHA LMAO

[bobo]

How about as far as the entire pen goes? I'm not claiming the Yankees are the best (yet), but they're looking good:

Rivera, Proctor, Farnsworth, Vizcaino, Britton, Myers

And don't underestimate the advantage Rivera (and other top closers) have over their counterparts. Similarly, I still think the Braves' 1-3 are better than the Mets', but the advantage Wagner has over Wickman makes that closer than it seems.

[allabouthephils]

"nrmax, your pen is neither deeper nor better, and everyone knows it. I think even you know it."

it sure makes me nervous..... I like the fact that you guys had to give up LaRoche to get him though... If I had to pick who made out on the deal.. Straight up Id actually give the edge to the Pirates because a position player is always more valuable than a relief pitcher... Especially one who hit 32 homers last year..... But that pen is pretty nasty... It's definately the best in the NL East and could be the best in the National league....

[DonCoburleone]

Yankees bullpen, HA!... Yeah, Rivera makes the rest of the pen soooo much better, please. More like the 12 runs the Yankees score every game makes the bullpen better...

[bravesbeast]

Let me just put it this way, the gonzo-soriano-wickman pen means a lot less blown saves, that is all i care about, i dont care if it is the best bullpen or not, it means less leads given up, the staff should improve, and the offense is still pretty potent, and all this means more wins for the braves

[DonCoburleone]

"Straight up Id actually give the edge to the Pirates because a position player is always more valuable than a relief pitcher... Especially one who hit 32 homers last year...."

I would agree, but HR hitters are a strength of the Braves. Chipper, Andruw, Francoeur, and McCann are all capable of hitting 30+ Homers... So I think Pittsburgh got the better end of the deal by the slimmest of margins (unless Gonzo blows out his elbow or something...)

[RotoAuthority]

Check the post for an update!

[DonCoburleone]

Lillibridge? So this guy is supposed to be pretty good then? Who are the Braves giving up?

[bcampy]

The Padre's Merideth Linebrink Hoffman is the best 7-8-9 in baseball. Plus, Cla Merideth usually goes more than one inning anyways.

[RotoAuthority]

Dunno...that's all I know so far.

[ejruiz777]

Brent Lillibridge looks filthy, but I have to wait and see who the second player leaving ATL for Pitt is before passing judgement on this trade.

One thing's for sure, our 'pen is much better now than it was at this point last year and it's not even close. It has to be one of the top 3 in the NL and top 10 in all of baseball; last year we were damn near the bottom of any positive bullpen list.

[tyler]

I'll take Rivera and three minor leaguers over the brave's 3.

[RotoAuthority]

Aight, the second player is no one I heard of. Check the post.

[ejruiz777]

Romak had miserable a 2003 and 2004, then was awesome in 2005 before coming back down somewhat in 2006. All that, however, happened before the kid could legally by a beer, so who knows. He seems to have found his nitch in the OF and/or simply developed somewhat and looks to be a decent prospect. He's no Lillibridge, but he's not as far off as I would have liked.

[kevmill21]

from that shortstop's stats, he looks like he can flat out play, that might turn out to be a mistake by the pirates

[allabouthephils]

Rivera isn't gonna pitch three innings.... He may be the best closer ever.... he is also the most OVER RATED pitcher on the face of the planet....

[nrmax88]

Wow, Wagner, Mota, Heilman, Sanchez, Burgos, Adkins, Feliciano, Schoenweis, Padilla, Dave Williams dont even get into the conversation? 5 guys who throw 95+ and we dont get into the conversation. Oh well. When the mets are leading the division again and the braves are 10 out im gonna be laughing my ass off

[was385]

Burgos sucks, just an example of how 95+ doesn't mean shit in baseball. It helps but doesnt carry you. Francouer will feast of that crap that burgos throws. Face it man, Gonzalez is more dominant than any of them, so is Soriano for that matter, and Wickman doesnt throw any incredible pitches, but he shuts people down

[ArodSucksAtLife]

I dont remember who I was talking to about drafting and signing players based on their last names, but that makes Lillibridge a throw in who means nothing. Go buccos.

[firesticks]

Ooooo looks like was385 beat me to it about Burgos. A Mota-Heilman-Wagner 7-8-9 is good, damn good actually. There's just some others that are flat out better. Tigs, Padres, and yes the Braves now with Gonzalez come to mind.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

Not that Romak means shite either, infact by the last name theory the Braves made out cause Gonzalez is more reliable than LaRoche. Damn French Canadians....

[ArodSucksAtLife]

"Rivera isn't gonna pitch three innings.... He may be the best closer ever.... he is also the most OVER RATED pitcher on the face of the planet...."

From someone who roots for an AL East team, has actually watched post season baseball, and isn't a homer, you are completely wrong.

[piratefn7]

ah losing lillibridge kills he had 57 steals last year which is on top of a 305 average but maybe juset maybe this romak kid will develop i much rather wouldve of gaven up duffy u got your wish chris duffy lovers

[thebull315]

Gonzalez is not that great. His WHIP the last two years was atrocious for a late-innings reliever. He just has a knack for getting out of trouble. It'll catch up to him eventually. Wickman is not a great closer either. One of the worst in the league IMO. He has injury woes as well. Soriano is usually injured as well and has lost a lot of velocity on his fastball according to reports coming out of WInter League. Other than that, yea, the Braves pen is awesome.

[tyler]

Mariano Rivera the most overrated pitcher ever?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahahhahahahahahah

[was385]

every year he is doubted. Wickman will be great once again and Gonzalez is unhittable. Why when talking about a Braves player does everyone suck? You must be a mets fan bull

[Droptop]

Does this make the Braves have the best bullpen in the NL now? I think this puts them in the argument for at least top 3-5...

[Droptop]

Lets let Clay Meredith repeat last year first, then try calling them the best 7-8-9...

I'd put Speier/Shields/K-Rod ahead of the Padres 3 and I'm an A's fan. I wouldn't put Calero/Duchscherer/Street ahead of the Padres 3 but I wouldn't put them behind it either...

I'm inclined to think the Mets and Braves bullpens will be neck and neck next year.

[was385]

no, the Braves easily take down the mets pen. As a braves fan, nothing is certain with Wagner. He can be a choke artist in a tight spot.

[Yankee Fan 88]

i think braves pen is top 5 or so in the NL and got a lot better with gonzalez. they wanted to sure up the pen and they did just that with their moves.

i am a yankee fan and there are SOME 7-8-9 i would take over ours but just a few like - DET and OAK probably

[Yankee Fan 88]

lillibridge is a soild player who gets on base like crazy - billy beane would love him

and

romak has some promise to be a decent 25-30hr guy at 1b

[bsox21]

From a Mets Fan:

I love this deal.

Laroche is a below avg 1B, but still a solid bat.

I forget the kid's name right now, but I think it was Thorman that they have coming up to replace LAroche.

I dont think Thorman is ready, nor do I think he's very good.

Franceour sucks.

Its funny how Soriano gets discounted to "he sucks" due to only drawing 60 or so walks, but Franceour is great even tho his walk totals are atrocious. I wonder why that's so....

Franceour is garbage.

He occassionally gets hot, but for the most part, he sucks.

The Braves have a nice pen, but thy always have a nice pen.

In the past, you could get good arms on the cheap and allow Mazzone to work with them.

Now a good arm in the pen costs you ur starting 1B.

I like it.

McCann is a solid hitter, but no lock to keep up his production. Who cares...he's not going to drive the braves.

Franceour is crap.

Chipper is great, but his body is falling apart. No way he plays a full season.

Andruw is a beast, but Beltran gives us that and more.

Mets pen vs Braves pen?

If Dirty Sanchez is Dirty Sanchez again, our pen will CRUSH that of the Braves. If he's half the man he was last year before injury, then our pen is still at least as good.

I'll put the Mets pen up against anyone.

Lets go to war u bitches.

[samael88]

bsox21,

nobody takes u seriously for god sake u think carlos beltran is better than albert pujols aka "best player in the MAJORS"

Bsox ur not a baseball fan ur just a die hard mets fan that is mad cause a catcher that hit .216 in the season blew ur chances for a world series.

ur even worse than cubs fan.

[samael88]

and i dont need cubs fan yelling on me now.

cardinals 2006 world champions

[Das Cube]

Yeah. Let's revisit the best bullpens idea. Where are the Nats. Wagner, Rauch, Cordero and a recovering Ayala. Yeah. That is right. The Nats have a solid pen.
So, please, respect.
Also, the Mets are terrible.
Schoenweis?? Dave Williams?? When did Mota become a stud? He's had a terrible last 2.5 years.
The Mets could be placed as a top 10 pen, but you can't decide which one is second best (Nats are best. NO. 1 Bitcheeees). Yeah. thats what you sound like. Which is the equivalent of what is floating in my toilet right now. Yeah. I'll give you a hint. It is not a calculator. Please, leave the stupidty behind.

[stormstarter28]

"I'll put the Mets pen up against anyone.
Lets go to war u bitches."

That's hilarious...did you just call arguing on this website a "war"?

[JerseyMetFan]

MY OPINION:

Braves - Soriano (7), Gonzales (9), Wickman (7)

Mets - Heilman (8), Sanchez (8), Wagner (9)

Wickman racks up saves, and that's it. He's not a good pitcher.

[bsox21]

samael88,

No matter what people say, real baseball fans here, even if they disagree, can easily see that I know my shit.

EVEN if they disagree with me, the informed fans here can at least see that I am no Mets homer.

Stormstarter,

I am not calling this website a war u moron.

I am calling the baseball season a war.

That is my way of saying I feel good about my team to go into the season right now and feel confident.

I am saying I love my bullpen and feel strongly that my team will compete.

Let me guess, you're a brain surgeon right?

[bravesbeast]

well if that is all wickman does, then again the braves are sitting pretty and our good position to win the east

[stormstarter28]

I'm a moron because you didn't make yourself clear?

Yes, to answer your question, I am indeed a brain surgeon.

Finally, calling the baseball season a war is just as funny as calling this website a war.

[beeniez]

"Wickman racks up saves, and that's it. He's not a good pitcher."

That makes no sense.

[was385]

"Wickman racks up saves, and that's it. He's not a good pitcher."

Have you ever looked at his stats. Over the past two seasons he has an ERA hovering around 2.5 and has converted 90% of his save opps. He doesnt have a nasty slider like Wagner or a 100 mph FB like Zumaya, but he pounds the K zone and gets a fair number of Ks and easy outs. Everyone bashes him, but when he comes in, we can turn off the TV. Also, Heilman doesnt come close to Soriano or Wickman. He is as streaky a pitcher as I have ever seen. Sanchez doesnt come close to Soriano either. Soriano has a 1.09 WHIP, over a K per inning, and around 7 H per 9 in the tougher league. Sanchez and Heilman don't come CLOSE to that.

[classic17]

If you knew your shit, you'd know how to spell Francoeur.

Also, if you're not 100% sure of a Thorman's name, how can you know he's not ready for the majors and not very good?

[beeniez]

Adam LaRoche has been a platoon player most of his career. Most teams still see him that way. He didn't start regularly until midway through the season so not many Braves fans were that accustomed to seeing him everyday.

He's good and his defense will be missed, but Thorman will be an adequate replacement. Certainly can't expect the same production, but he's no easy out.

The Braves have one of the best lineups in baseball. Laugh all you want, they scored tons of runs. They can afford to lose the production when other players (Francoeur, McCann, Jones, and Jones) all have 30 home run potential. LaRoche was relegated to 6-7 most of the year anyways, so it's not like we lost a bat in the middle of the lineup.

The Braves have one of the best bullpens in the league now. What was once our greatest weakness, is now possible our greatest strength. I'm not going to get too excited about Gonzo though, he's probably going to be spun off for more players.

[PeteRose]

"No matter what people say, real baseball fans here, even if they disagree, can easily see that I know my shit."

Actually, knowing and regurgitating are two entirely different things.....

[allabouthephils]

All this conversation needs is a die hard Phillies fan ..... hahaha...

I will say that the Phillies have the 4th best bullpen in the division as it stands right now.... Only the Marlins have worse... That's pretty bad...

[allabouthephils]

I take the Braves bullpen by a hair over the Mets.... Sanchez was injured last year... Mota likes needles in the ass and has been inconsistent the last 3 seasons... Heilman is pretty consistent and Wagner is Wagner.... Gonzalez has been lights out for three years now (the stats dont lie, under 3 ERA each year and over a K per inning)... Rafael Soriano is pretty nasty and Bob Wickman is consistent.... I take the Braves pen over the Mets.... It won't matter though because each pen is going to be lights out after 6 innings.... Each side should be happy....

[allabouthephils]

Im the one that has to worry about a bullpen... the Phils have Ryan Madsen or Geoff Geary as a setup man.... You wanna talk about worried !?!

[nickjs21]

What really gets me about this Gonzalez/LaRoche trade is how it just came out of NOWHERE ... I mean, how come no one saw this coming??

*rim shot*

But seriously, about the bullpens ... arguing over who has the best bullpen BEFORE the season is played is the most pointless thing baseball fans could do. No one's gonna predict what their bullpen does. It's impossible. Don't try.

[allabouthephils]

True true true...

One name

Cliff Politte

Sub 2 ERA lights out during the world series run

Next season he was released.......

[giantspwner187]

i dont think wickman is that good ive never actually seen him but of the braves three id say gonzo sori then wickman.

i think if you just want an 8-9 the angels have the best because shields and k-rod are amazing when healthy. i think that next year the twins could become better though neshek is phenomenal and then nathan. overall 789 though i still say detroit.

as for NL. hm nobody in the west has that great of a pen except for SD who is consistently solid because hoffman is a perennial stud. the central... not too much there then the east theres the mets and braves now but id still give it to SD in a heartbeat. ATL second NY third then maybe LA

[jakec]

Okay, before the Braves fans start getting crazy with this "best bullpen in baseball" crap, or even just in the NL East- one, shouldn't we wait, oh, I don't know, maybe a day or two to make sure the Braves aren't flipping Gonzalez somewhere else? And two- while the Braves bullpen sure is better than it was, that's not saying much. Who wrote that Gonzalez is "unhittable"? The guy pitched to a 1.352 WHIP last year, that ain't unhittable. In fact, he's only been below a 1.3 once in his career, and that was three years ago. I love Soriano as much as the next guy and think the Braves stole him in that deal, by why the assumption that he'll return from injury to the exact same form as before, while D Sanchez is now suspect because he finished last year hurt? And as for the all important closer position- look, you want to argue that Wagner is overpaid and over rated, fine. But he's still better than Wickman by any measure, and it isn't close.

[crimedog652]

Lets get one thing straight: LaRoche had a good second half only. At the end of June, he was hitting .243 with 13 homers....As far as the Mets pen is concerned, its not going to matter because their starting pitching sucks.

[crimedog652]

And Wickman's ERA was 1.04 for the Braves in 28 games and in the process he saved 18 of 19. That is solid

[beeniez]

Gonzo has a high WHIP because he walks quite a few. People aren't hitting the ball against him, just getting on-base. Kind of like Nolan Ryan - tons of walks but hard to hit.

Why does everyone think Wickman sucks? Because he doesn't throw 95 MPH? MPH is the most overrated stat. A major league hitter could time a jet once they've seen it a few times.

Until Gonzo actually suits up in a Braves uniform, I'm not going to think he is actually playing for us. There are too many trading opportunities for Gonzo, someone will crack under pressure and trade a ridiculous amount for him. Given that it's already a solid bullpen without him and the market right now, the Braves can ask for the moon.

[bravesbeast]

i completly agree, the braves can spin gonzo in a trade with like the yankees for cabrera and proctor, of course we would have to give up something else to even out the deal, or maybe in a three way to get a left fielder who can lead off, or maybe to boston for someone, there are tons of possibilites in which we could feel one or more needs with gonzo and still ahve a good bullpen

[JerseyMetFan]

Why does everyone think Melky Cabrera is good? Career .739 OPS? Pass.

I wouldn't send Gonzo for Melky and Proctor. Someone would definitely top that offer.

[beeniez]

"Why does everyone think Melky Cabrera is good? Career .739 OPS? Pass."

*Career* .739? He's barely played one season. He's good defensively, has speed, cannon arm, can hit for average and many scouts think he'll develop even more power. If you count, that's five tools.

A lot of people think he'll develop into an all-star. Don't forget he's young, cheap, and under control for the next 5 years. That plus Proctor, a reliable bullpen arm, would be a hell of a trade for the Bravos.

The worst Melky develops into is a fourth outfielder. Which even then, wouldn't be a total bust for anyone who has him.

[beeniez]

And does this move potentially put Renteria on the block?

[DentalPlan]

The Pirates got jobbed. Adam LaRoche's 2006 is only a little less convincing than Jacque Jones's. My prediction on LaRoche - .830 OPS next season. Talk to me this time next year. The Braves did the smart thing - sell while the stock was high.

[nrmax88]

"As far as the Mets pen is concerned, its not going to matter because their starting pitching sucks"

This is probably the single most ignorant statement ive ever seen on this website. Thats really saying something too.

[nrmax88]

As far as Proctor going to Atlanta, I might bust a nut, him and his flat fastball would get abused.

[RedSoxHater3]

So let me get this straight...You people actually think that...Mo is overrated...and Wickman is a beast...hahaha...

[vt_Brady2705]

Wickman, while not the best closer in baseball, is still one of the elite ones. The "best" conversation starts and ends with Rivera, Rodriguez, and Nathan. Here's an old post of mine arguing that Bob Wickman is actually a very good closer, and it compares him to all the best in baseball - you might be interested about who may or may not be overrated ...

=================================================

You know what drives me nuts? The fact that if you're not Bobby Jenks, Joel Zumaya, or Billy Wagner closing out games, people like ths say "oh, he's hitable, and he won't be very good."

I would think that before someone would go and say something dumb like Bob Wickman isn't an elite closer, he would at least go do his homework. Look at Bob Wickman's career from 1997 (when he first started to get save opportunities. I will only include years in which he exceeded 40 IP, as anything less is too small of a sample size for the stats to bear much meaning. He missed all of 2003, and pitched partly in 2002 and 2004, so I will combine those 2 years as if it were just one season):

Year_____SV_____SVO_____SV%_____ERA_____IP
1997_____01______XX______XX_______2.73_____95.2
1998_____25______XX______XX_______3.72_____82.1
1999_____37______45______82.2%_____3.39_____74.1
2000_____30______37______81.1%_____3.10_____72.2
2001_____32______35______91.4%_____2.39_____67.2
'02 & '04__33______36______91.7%_____4.36_____64.0
2005_____45______50______90.0%_____2.47_____62.0
2006_____33______37______89.2%_____2.67_____54.0

Sure, Bob Wickman doesn't throw 97 MPH. He does however, throw 91 - 93 mph, with a very godd 2 seamer, a very sharp breaking low to mid 80's slider, and a decent changeup. And he has excellent command over all of his pitches, better than most pitchers. Rarely does Wickman aim for the outside corner, and end up laying a pitch down the pipe. If you've got command, you don't need 97+ mph to be great.

The most important stat here for a closer is the Save %. So over the last 4 full seasons, Bob Wickman has been a guy who closes out 90% of his games. Before that, when he was still relatively new at closing, he was still closing out over 80% of his games, which is still very good. How did some of the "elite" closers fare in 2006?

Name________________SV_____SVO_____SV%
06: Joe Nathan_________36_____38_______94.7%
06: K-Rod_____________47_____51_______92.2%
06: Mariano Rivera______34_____37_______91.9%
06: Bobby Jenks________41_____45_______91.1%
06: Trevor Hoffman_____46_____51_______90.2%
06: B.J. Ryan__________38_____42_______90.5%
06: Billy Wagner________40_____45_______90.0%
********************Bob Wickman***************************
06: Tom Gordon________34_____39_______87.2%
06: Chris Ray__________33_____38_______86.8%
06: Todd Jones________37_____43_______86.0%
06: Joe Borowski_______37_____43_______86.0%
06: Jon Papelbon_______35_____41_______85.4%
06: Brad Lidge_________32_____38_______84.2%
06: J.J. Putz___________36_____43_______83.7%
06: Huston Street_______37_____48_______77.1%

So, a Bob Wickman who has over the last 4 full seasons of closing, put up a SV% at 90% (give or take 1%), puts him right in the arms of the most elite closers in the game. If you were to look at Bob Wickman's stats only after he came to Atlanta, he was arguably the most effective closer in the game, saving 94.7% of his efforts (the same ratio as leader Joe Nathan), and posting a ridiculous 1.04 ERA, with 25 strikeouts in 26 innings.

For anyone to say our closer situation isn't flat out RESOLVED, is pure idiocy. Sports writers get a hard-on for guys who can throw the ball 100 mph, and think that's the only acceptable way to close out a game. I love the fact that we have a big fat hillbilly with decent stuff but exceptional command who goes out and gets the job done as well as anyone, and does it with 6 lbs of tobacco wadded into the side of his cheek because he just doesn't give a f***. Bob Wickman is the man, and for any writer to say the Braves still have bullpen trouble, simply means they were having a slow day of news to report, decided to pick on a team, and picked out the Braves bullpen without actually doing research and realizing our bullpen is pretty F'ing good, with not a single player posting an ERA over 4.00 in 2006.
___________ERA____WHIP___K/9
Wickman____2.67___1.22___7.00
Gonzalez___2.17___1.35___10.67
Soriano____2.25___1.08___9.75
Paronto____3.18___1.27___6.51
Villarreal___3.61___1.30___5.36
McBride____3.65___1.50___7.31
Yates______3.96___1.46___8.28

That is an awesome bullpen. You Mets fans want to talk about overall bullpen depth - you really shouldn't be, because you know you can't compete with that. Do you even have your bullpen decided yet? Or do you have Wagner, Heilman, Sanchez, a suspended Mota, the guy from Kansas City, and then not really anything else going for you? That's what I thought. Anyone with any common sense can tell our bullpen is going to be a strength in 2007. End of debate.

If you look at Bob Wickman's place on the list, you'll see something interesting:

Everyone below him would be considered more of a second-tier closer. Everyone above him, most people would consider to be elite. Then there's Wickman. Where does he fit? By his save % over the last few years, you'd have to say he fits more in line with the "elite" closers above him. However, by his "reputation" or "name-value," most people who don't look at his accomplishments very hard would consider him to be one of the second-tier closers, along the likes of a Tom Gordon or Todd Jones.

JUST CONSIDER THIS; OVER HIS LAST 4 COMPLETE SEASONS (COMBINING 2002 AND 2004 INTO ONE YEAR SINCE THEY WERE BOTH INJURY PLAGUED "HALF-SEASONS" FOR BOB WICKMAN), WICKMAN REGISTERED EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF SAVES IN EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF CHANCES AS DID BILLY WAGNER, WHO EVERYONE JUST ASSUMES IS BETTER THAN WICKMAN:

Bob Wickman-------(143 for 158 in his last 4 years) for a 90.5% ratio

Billy Wagner--------(143 for 158 in his last 4 years) for a 90.5% ratio

Mariano Rivera-----(170 for 187 in his last 4 years) for a 90.9% ratio

Now if you ask me, that's pretty darn good, considering the league bench-mark that every closer in baseball trys to measure up to (Rivera) has only been converting saves at a 0.4% better margin. Everyone just assumes Wagner is better than Wickman because he has greater name recognition; however, the fact is as far as being a closer goes, Bob Wickman and Billy Wagner are as equal in effectiveness as any two players in Major League Baseball. That's not a Braves' fan being biased, that's a fact. Look at the numbers, they don't lie. Is Wickman the best? No. Is he elite? You bet your a55 he is.

[touchmymonkey]

Maybe Gonzo to the redsox for Hansen and Willy mo or Coco? Renteria to the whitesox for Pods + pitcher? Am I overtired or do these have an at least outside shot?

[bravesbeast]

No, Renteria is not on the block, it makes absolutly no sense as to why he would be traded. The braves are now already starting two realatively nnew major leaguers at first or second, why would they want to create the same situation at short. Renteria is a verteran presence who could help both thorman and whomever starts at second. The braves are not going start three young guys in the infield this year, unless they would have not traded laroche. Renteria is the braves shortstop for the next two years, so the speculation should stop right there.

[Thrillhouse26]

Not to say you don't have an argument for ATL's bullpen there. But Bullpen ERA especially over just one season is basically a worthless stat.

"But seriously, about the bullpens ... arguing over who has the best bullpen BEFORE the season is played is the most pointless thing baseball fans could do. No one's gonna predict what their bullpen does. It's impossible. Don't try. "

NICKJS21 is absolutely right.

[touchmymonkey]

Makes sense to me bravesbeast - you have to remember I am a cubs fan so my trade concepts are truly based in fantasy ( thus us thinking we can get an allstar for Jones ). Do you think Gonzo for OF is a possibility?

[bravesbeast]

I think that I could see that, definatley in a trade that could brings us a speedy left fielder who can lead off, or a Alex Rios or Rocco Baldelli type player.

[rawr]

I seriously doubt the Braves are going to turn around and deal Gonzales. You must be underestimating how awful their pen was last year. Had the Braves had a decent bullpen last year, they'd of probably won the Wild Card. Unfortunately, they had the Jorge Sosa/Chris Reitsma/*insert scrub here* project going on way too long. They had an offense that could compete with anyone in the NL, especially when Chipper was healthy. I think that with the new bullpen additions of Soriano (Assuming he rebounds okay from that shot to the head) and Gonzales, they could put up a real fight in the NL East. The NL East should be a good race next year between the Mets/Phils/Braves/Marlins

[bravesbeast]

Lol trust me i saw over 20 blown saves last year, I know how bad the bullpen was. I am just saying that if we could spin gonzo for a speedy leadoff guy who can play left, we may be able to get another reliever thrown in there as well. My opinion is that the braves are in a great position whether we trade or keep gonzo.

[tvators]

wow that was some read and I learned that Mike Gonzalez is Nolan Ryan!! seriously settle down Brave homers, I think he gets flipped to fill the huge holes in your lineup, plus he is a 50 IP who walks 6 per 9, his whip is steadily increasing, an iffy elbow, I'd take heilman in a heartbeat and his 87 IP last yr w/a 1.16 whip, but Sanchez must return healthy for the MEts bullpen, also the braves have Chad paronto so that puts them at the top w/ Tyler yates and Oscar Villareal, who can compete with that?? throw in McCay MCbride and watch out!

[rawr]

Why are 90% of Mets fans, huge douchebags?

[bravesbeast]

I have no problem with mets fans, i enjoy the rivalry. However you say that we have huge holes in our lineup, but a dependable lead off hitter is the only real hole we have. And last year, we really did not have a dependeable leadoff hitter, and still scored the second most runs in the NL, including more than the mets. Now am i say the braves lineup better than the mets, no not at all. THe braves were very streaky last year which can be seen by the low team batting average. I will agree the mets are the more consistient offense. We have lost giles and laroche, so our offense will prolly not met last years numbers. But our lineup still is one of the best in the NL. And again, we could always use gonzo to fill the whole at the top.

[bravesbeast]

I really wish i could effing spell, its embarassing.

[TraderJim7]

The braves bullpen blew 28 out 53 save opps last year. Still Laroche was a little too much to pay for a fragile lefty. The Pirates actually made a great move. Laroche shoudld approach 35 homers with the short rightfield porch at PNC. Laroche is going to haunt the Braves in 2007. The braves need to address there left field and secondbase problems. Now with Laroche gone, Thorman takes over. What a joke. Classic Braves. Go yankees!!!

[tvators]

I will not reply to the douchbag comment and keep this strictly baseball.
By huge holes I mean 1b/2b/LF, unless Braves fans are comfortable w/ Thorman/Johnson, Diaz, Langerhans, I think MGonz will be flipped to fill one of those spots, I'd rather fill one of those spots than have a 50 IP pitcher w/ an atrocious walk rate and bad elbow?? I love Soriano and Gonz is tough to hit but never more than 54 Innings in a season and plus Francoeur must improve next yr, .260/.293/.449 is pathetic, I don't care how man runs he drove in, when ya get 650 ABs in the middle of any order you'll drive in runs. Mets are full of holes as well, but everyone tends to look at the negative. I respect teh braves and was alwasy worried last yr they'd win 22 outta 25 and make it a race....Anyway relivers tend to fluctuate from year to year, I like that Heilman and Sanchez both had back to back effective years and still could get better, I coud babble on and on but bascally I wish it were April and we could start the "war" on the field

[bravesbeast]

ok i see where you are coming from now... I wish like crazy we could have adressed those positions through free agency, but even the laroche move was to cut payroll, showing how cash strapped we our. If we could get ronnie belliard or craig wilson cheap, i would not mind adding veteran depth. But hey, most team have holes, but we have far and away addressed our most dire one coming to the offseason, the bullpen, so i cant really complain.

[A2000]

If Lillibridge is so nasty would the Braves bring him up during Spring Training to play 2nd and possibly put him there perminently later in the year.

[Mick Kraut]

Lillibridge is a A level guy who was moved up to AA for a playoff run and series...while he numbers look good, he isnt anywhere near MLB ready...

[A2000]

I don't want him to come up prematurely just wondering about our possiblities.

Is there someone in the Braves system who will eventually take over for Chipper or is that another thing the Bravos need to take care of. Maybe Mark Teahen since the Royals have Alex Gordon coming up within the next few years?

[bravesbeast]

The braves have a young prospect in Double A ball named Eric Campbell who is supposed to be pretty potent at the plate and not too shabby with the glove either. Of course, a year and a half ago we had andy marte. So we definately dont have anyone at his level, campbell could be a good producing corner in the majors. Another possibility is Van Pope, who i dont think is as potent at the plate, but is pretty ghood with the glove. chipper will be around long enough for us to develop thes guys, or we will seek out a third base prospect if we trade andruw.

[jakec]

for what it's worth, Buster Olney wrote over on ESPN that the Braves bullpen isn't as strong as the Mets (although he is otherwise impressed).

[Kyle]

Mick Kraut, you have a good point. I have been reading about this trade and there are some people who think Lillibridge could be ready this year. He is fast, a solid fielder and has good on base skills he could be a solid second base option. Just to look here are what a couple projection systems have him doing:

Zips:
.251/.335/.369 8 HR 23 2B 32 SB

CHONE:
.254/.333/.365 6 HR 25 2B 34 SB

Pecota:
.277/.349/.428 11 HR 35 2B 30 SB

That is a decent range, Zips and CHONE see him as Chone Figgins with less speed, Pecota has him as more of Iguchi with more speed. Personally I think he will probably start at AA, but I wouldnt rule out him breaking camp with the team

[DonCoburleone]

"to fill the huge holes in your lineup"

What huge holes? Renteria, Chipper, Andruw, McCann, Francoeur rivals any 2-3-4-5-6 in the NL, including the shitty Mets...

[DonCoburleone]

The Mets suck... Duaner Sanchez (AKA wannabe K-ROD) has and always will be overrated, Mota is gonna suck again (when he gets back from suspension... what was he suspended for again?) Heilman is just a failed starter who the Mets have to put somewhere, and Wagner is getting too old to be effective as a "power pitcher". And don't even get me started on the Mets HORRIBLE starting pitching. Pedro is now the Shaq of baseball... once dominant, but now hardly ever plays and when he does he gets schooled by a good offensive team. Glavine is old and will revert back to 2004 form in 2007. El Duque, no seriously, he's still in the league? And then all these supposed good young starters... Rrrrright, who exactly are they? Please name me one Mets rookie (or second year player) in the last 10 years who had even close to the season Chuck James did for Atlanta last year. Brian Bannister was supposed to be great, and you trade him for an unproven KANSAS CITY MINOR LEAGUE bullpen arm? Now I keep hearing about John Maine and Pelfry and Kazmir... oh wait, you guys traded Kazmir? Oh, but you did get Zambrano out of the deal... Wait, it wasn't CARLOS Zambrano? Thats too bad... LOL... METS SUCK!

[tvators]

I didn't mention those guys, I said the holes in the braves line up so that would be the other 3 spots although Renteria is over rated, Chipper is great for 120 games if your lucky, Andruw is a great power hitter and I will be sad to see him leave next yr, no way McCann hits as well as he did last yr, he'll still be good but no way! and Francoeur again .260/.293/.448 is slightly better than Rey Ordonez' career line!

[stormstarter28]

Don, I may be going out on a limb here, but those "holes" he was referring to might be 1-7-8 in your lineup. I'm a Cards fan, so don't scream bias here, but if I were you I would wait until the Braves clinch the division to say the Mets suck. Nothing in the NL East is a sure thing. All you just did was pick out individual Mets and say they suck, with no real facts to prove it. The same could be done to the Braves...watch how easy it is:
Francouer is gonna suck, Chipper is old, Wickman gonna blow saves this time around, etc. etc.
Making fun of the Mets for bad trades is stupid. Yeah, they made mistakes in the past, but so has every team, and they are the reigning East champs, so give credit where credit is due.
All I'm saying is anyone could win that division, that's why they play the game.

[tvators]

I'll name you one, his name is Jorge Sosa, who I am sure you were loving this time last year, when you were comparing the Braves rotation to that of the shitty Mets. Rafael Soriano is just a failed starter too, Gonzalez and his 50 IP are way over rated, past Smoltz, who is due for a long DL stint, I wouldn't get too excited about ur rotation... Hudson's decline was quick huh, Braves are missing their last chance to dump his albatross of a salary, opps too late...Hampton, well thats just too easy,I'll skip that Im a nice guy, Kyle Davies is terrible and Chuck Jorge Sosa Jr wil be an ace I am sure. Its pretty easy to rip apart a team w/ no facts just words...obviously the mets starting pitching is a concern but it was a concern last yr too and they did OK, Pedro won 4 games after April for us so I think btwn Maine/Pelfrey/Humber/Ol. Perez they can get two guys to step up and be solid starters, maybe one turns in a great yr, they all have talent, pedro got hammered when he was injured, he was great early in 06, so if he can come back after the all star break and mets can add a starter at the deadline they will be fine and I do look forward to an improved Braves team and a pennant race

[tvators]

Wow thank you stormstarter!

[JerseyMetFan]

Saves are probably the most worthless stat in baseball. Almost any pitcher can throw one inning without giving up 3 runs.

I'd like to see how many pitchers in baseball thew a shutout inning last season... starters and relievers. Saves are not a repeatable skill.

If you want to compare closers, use WHIP, K/9, K/BB, OPS against, etc.

[beeniez]

"wow that was some read and I learned that Mike Gonzalez is Nolan Ryan!!"

Try re-reading that post. I compared their strategy - they both walk a ton of people but still are unhittable. You almost spun it around to make me look stupid. Good try though!

That huge gap that allowed Mets fans to boast their amazing bullpen is no longer there. Adam LaRoche has been a platoon player most of his career and not much production was ever expected from him.

All Wickman needs is to get a save. It doesn't have to be pretty, just get the outs. He ranks up there with the top closers in baseball so I don't see how he sucks. The Mets rotation has a tremendous amount of downside and comparing it to Atlanta's is absurd. Chuck James has dominated every level he's pitched in, Davies flashes brilliance every now and then and he's projected as a top of the rotation starter - he's also very young (reached majors at 21), what makes you think Smoltz is due for a DL stint? He's old? Glavine's older; Duque is waaay older. Hudson still pitches league average so if that's terrible then I'll take it.

Holes in the lineup? We had them last year and outscored the Mets. Giles' production can be replaced by my grandmother, who's dead, a Diaz/Langerhans platoon worked well last year, Diaz hit very well and might take the job from defensive oriented Langerhans, all three second basemen looking for a job have played and excelled in the majors, and even Roto projects Thorman as 20+ homeruns given 500+ at bats. Soooo, where are the holes?

"Saves are not a repeatable skill."

Well, he's repeated it several teams and will probably repeat it this year. I still don't get your argument that saves are bad?

[JerseyMetFan]

His teams have put him in the situation to get those saves. He has NO control whatsoever. I never said saves are bad, I just said they are a worthless stat.

[stormstarter28]

Saves are not a worthless stat. I don't care how many walks and hits a closer allows as long as he works his way out of it and wins the games. Wickman is a perfect example of this. People may get the tying run on base, but they sure as hell don't score on him very often. If he had only performed like this for one season, I could see your argument making sense, but I'll take ugly yet consistent saves from Wickman over a good K/9 ratio.

[beeniez]

So, you're telling me that everytime he went out there he had a three run lead?

"WHIP, K/9, K/BB, OPS against, etc."

You mention these as valuable stats for a closer. I mentioned earlier that Nolan Ryan had a terrible WHIP given the amount of walks, and I hope you agree he was virutally unhittable. So there goes that stat - it can be misleading.

K/9? Since when did a closer have to strike out every batter he faced to get a save? Smoltz struck out 15 Mets in 6 2/3 innings, and still got the loss. So strikeouts are misleading as well. Danny Kolb used to be a reliable closer who soley uses a sinker - very effective eliminating base runners.

OPS, ehhh. Again, if they close the game, no matter how pretty or ugly, the team still wins.

[Megastahr]

Who has a better bullpen in NL now braves or astros? I am guessing braves now...but whos 2nd? I think as far as potential itd be astros...they have probablly the most in depth bullpen I have ever seen. But aside from depth they have a great 1..2..3.

Qualls
Wheeler
Lidge (if he can get it together)

[stormstarter28]

If I'm comparing closers, the ONLY thing I care about is saves/blown saves. It doesn't matter how they do it as long as they win the game. Every closer will be in save situations where they have a 1, 2, or 3 run lead. You can't argue with how consitently Wickman gets saves. His other stats don't matter when he's saved 143 of his last 158 attempts. He is simply a good closer, no matter what the other stats say.

[stormstarter28]

Mega, when the closer (Lidge) is that big of an "if", I would hardly call it a great 1-2-3 until he actually "gets it together".

[Megastahr]

Are you serious? Even if he doesnt bounce back he is still dominating for short relief...so swap him with wheeler and we still have a GREAT 123. I am not saying the best as looks right now...but if lidge does bounce back I think we can make that argument huh? Baseball bias aside Lidge (back to normal and wheeler and qualls in any order is scary. But I was talkin about the whole bullpen I dont think there is a team in the NL near astros bullpen depth.

[nrmax88]

Good post brady, very insightful, I still will say the Mets have as much if not more depth then the braves in the pen.All those guys u named, after the 7/8/9 guys, macbride, yates, villareal, are all relatively young and you cant be sure what you will get out of them, so no braves fan can bring up motas suspension, duaners injury, because the braves have some issuas also. The mets do have Wagner Sanchez Heilman Mota Burgos Feliciano Joe smith Schoenweis Adkins Williams Soler Vargas Bostick Humber Pelfrey Sosa all as options out of the bullpen. About 7 of those guys breaking 95 MPH. I know people say that MPH doesnt matter, yeah... whatever. Tell that To rodney and Zumaya. People who are familiar with the mets should be excited about Burgos, his style seems similar to that of Motas, and Peterson had Mota fixed up within days of arriving in NY, for all the smart asses who will say he gave him a needle, I think we can be sure he was also on whatever he tested positive for while in Cleveland also. If Duaner Sanchez comes back healthy, then we have a sick 7/8/9 group also, in Heilman/ Sanchez/ Wagner. In the 6th inning we have Mota or Burgos. Our long man is most likely Dave Williams. Feliciano and Schoenweis will battle for the LOOGY spot, while Adkins will replace Bradford. I know people will say MPH dont matter, but wouldnt you like to have the luxuryt of bringing in a Mota, or Burgos if he is straightened out, to face one batter. I know I would. I love the mets pen, and find it funny while they were dynamite last year, now they just ..... "arent in the conversation"

[nrmax88]

"The Mets suck... Duaner Sanchez (AKA wannabe K-ROD) has and always will be overrated, Mota is gonna suck again (when he gets back from suspension... what was he suspended for again?) Heilman is just a failed starter who the Mets have to put somewhere, and Wagner is getting too old to be effective as a "power pitcher". And don't even get me started on the Mets HORRIBLE starting pitching. Pedro is now the Shaq of baseball... once dominant, but now hardly ever plays and when he does he gets schooled by a good offensive team. Glavine is old and will revert back to 2004 form in 2007. El Duque, no seriously, he's still in the league? And then all these supposed good young starters... Rrrrright, who exactly are they? Please name me one Mets rookie (or second year player) in the last 10 years who had even close to the season Chuck James did for Atlanta last year. Brian Bannister was supposed to be great, and you trade him for an unproven KANSAS CITY MINOR LEAGUE bullpen arm? Now I keep hearing about John Maine and Pelfry and Kazmir... oh wait, you guys traded Kazmir? Oh, but you did get Zambrano out of the deal... Wait, it wasn't CARLOS Zambrano? Thats too bad... LOL... METS SUCK!"

Great post. LOL. Your the first person Ive eve heard say Sanchez is overated. Usualy pitchers with a 96mph fatsball, a nasty 2 seamer, nasty split and curveball, with a ridiculous change and pin point control arent overated. Motas gonna suck again, he didnt suck with the mets, at all. Good job though. So what if heilman is a failed starter. He didnt fail in the bullpen. Bannister was ok, but not going to make the mets rotation. We have literally 10 or more guys who can put up the same or better nummbers as bannister. When you have rick peterson as a pitching coach, and you have a chance to get a 21 year old kid who throws 100 mph with a nasty split and control problems, I say you go for it. Wagner is still dominating hitters. You say hes to old, how old is wickman? Why would glavine break down, when hes never been on the DL in his life. He has about as fluent a motiong as you will see. He can pitch till hes 46 or 47 if he wants, because his stuff will not diminish much more in the next 5 years, but he is smart and will keep getting better with age. Smoltz has a better chance ending up on the DL then Glavs. Smoltz even has a history of arm problems. Pedro is like Shaq? Besides the fact hes like a foot shorter, weighs 200 pounds less, and doesnt play basketball. Good comparison though.Thats why Pedro dominated the braves for his 200th win last year with a TORN ROTATOR CUFF. What happens when he comes back and hes throwen 92 mph again and makig your whole team look silly. He will be back in time for the playoff run, nice and fresh. Hampton. HA!!! When he puts up a procudtive season, then i will believe it. James is just as likely to have a soph slump as maine is.Pelfrey and Humber will be ready soon, and truthfully, I would rather sacrifice one year of struggling with a bad rotation, rather then dealing one of my top 2 pitching prospects for a guy like Jazy Vazquez or Joe Blanton to try to win now, when we are already better then the phils and braves. And 2008, its gonna be a wrap then. OHHHHH I cant wait baby. The brave reaign is over and a new dynasty has begun. Time to get used to it

[nrmax88]

reign*

[DonCoburleone]

"I know people will say MPH dont matter, but wouldnt you like to have the luxury of bringing in a Mota"

Mota? You mean his JUICED 95 M.P.H. fastball? He ain't gonna be hitting 95 on the gun once he comes back from suspension (which by the way won't be until the end of May/beginning June).

"About 7 of those guys breaking 95 MPH. I know people say that MPH doesnt matter, yeah... whatever. Tell that To rodney and Zumaya."

Ummm, Zumaya and Rodney break 100 MPH, even Wagner doesn't do that.

"Peterson had Mota fixed up within days of arriving in NY, for all the smart asses who will say he gave him a needle, I think we can be sure he was also on whatever he tested positive for while in Cleveland also."

For one, he took a test early on in the season in Cleveland, and didn't fail! Not to mention his numbers were terrible for Cleveland, why do you think they got rid of him? Cleveland's biggest weakness last year was their middle relief, so then if Mota is so good, why would they get rid of him?

I'm not saying the Mets bullpen is bad, it's actually very strong still. But focus on guys who either A) Don't cheat... B)Don't get hurt... or C)Have done it before! Stick to Wagner, Feliciano, Heilman and Sanchez when your talking about the Mets bullpen, cuz thats by far the best of what you got...

[Megastahr]

Mets dont suck...but they arent the best team in NL...but neither are the braves...there is so many changes no team can say hey we look to be the best...not even the world series champs. So quit yapping about what no one can know until the season starts...ohh ya ASTROS ARE THE BEST TEAM IN NL! haha

[JerseyMetFan]

Don...

What's your point? Heilman, Feliciano, Sanchez, and Wagner are the 4 best in our bullpen. Nobody disagrees.

How many teams have more than 4 quality arms in their pen? Not many...

[DonCoburleone]

If you are resting your postseason hopes on Pedro coming back at the All-Star break and returning to his old dominant self, please go seek psychiatric help. PEDRO WILL NEVER AGAIN BE THE SAME PITCHER HE WAS! He is frail and his delivery puts waaaay too much strain on his girly body... Why do you think the Mets were the only team stupid enough to give him a 4 year contract?

[bravesbeast]

i say we bring back alejandro pena, greg mcmichael, mike remlinger, and mark wholers and then the braves will ahve the best bullpen with out a doubt, we can stick rocker and bedrosian in triple A in case of injury

[nrmax88]

Oh, ok but see you talk about Hampton, who hasnt been healthy in about 20 years, Hudson, who sucked last year, James, when has he ever done it before? Are you saying Mota hasnt been throwing in the mid 90s for his whole career? Yeah, im sureMota started juicen the day he came to the mets, and the steroids started working within minutes. Dont be mad at me man, its not my fault the braves are awful and couldnt even fill that stadium up with free tickets to the playoffs (which they wont be in for a while anyway so i guess it doesnt matter.) You talk about Chipper, yeah hell be out with a bad back by May. Did Francoeur ever get his first career walk yet? He didnt huh. Well theres always next year. And dont tell me what to talk about when discussing my own bullpen. I know what potential is, do you? Its this word that means, what the possibility of a guy developing into later is. 21 year olds, that throw a 100 mph, they usually have pretty good potential. Just dont say I didnt warn ya when your season is over in July again. Maybe this time it will be Delgado who single handedly crushes all the hopes and dreams of your season with a 10 RBI series instead of beltran this year. Maybe D wright , it sure will be exciting to see who the MEt is that dashes the hopes of braves fans everywhere. I hope it Sosa, that would be very poetic. Yeah, and about Sosa, your probably were raving about him last year saying hes the next coming of Tom Seaver, my man was 13-3 with mid 2s era,yeah good job, that will be Chuck James next year. Your also quick to talk about how Davies was only 21 when called up and should be given a chance, yeah we have a guy like that, his name is Lastings, Hes only 21, but he wasnt an allstar in his first season, so its obvious hes a bust. I guess the same is true for Davies, he struggle a little against older more talented players following his call up, so he sucks and doesnt even deserve to live. Lets trade him for Fat Joe Blanton

[DonCoburleone]

"What's your point? Heilman, Feliciano, Sanchez, and Wagner are the 4 best in our bullpen. Nobody disagrees."

"How many teams have more than 4 quality arms in their pen? Not many..."

I know that, but your buddy nrmax wants to bring up Mota, Burgos, Joe Smith, Schoenweis, Adkins, Williams, Soler, Vargas, Bostick, Humber, Pelfrey, and Sosa... like they are all badass or something... Sosa, LOL.

[nrmax88]

"If you are resting your postseason hopes on Pedro coming back at the All-Star break and returning to his old dominant self, please go seek psychiatric help. PEDRO WILL NEVER AGAIN BE THE SAME PITCHER HE WAS! He is frail and his delivery puts waaaay too much strain on his girly body... Why do you think the Mets were the only team stupid enough to give him a 4 year contract?"

Because signing that contract allowed for us to get Beltran, and then Wagner the next year. If u dont know this by now you are truly a moron, and you shouldnt watch baseball. Just sit on your porch with a shotgun and a straw in your mouth and shoot the stray cattle as the come strollen by Yall. Dam redneck. I think its funny how everybody important has Pedro coming back in August, possible throwing harder then he has in years. But i will take your word for it, you wana redneck godfather. Im not resting my hopes on Pedro coming back, Im just looking forward to it. Truth is, we can beat the braves by 15 games without Pedro, with him, you will just be embarrassed. Its gona be awesome.

[DonCoburleone]

So bitter nrmax, could it be because we buried your ass for 14 straight seasons?

[nrmax88]

Because we are talking about depth? Maybe thats why i named all of our depth? You are really so stupid its ammusing to me. Your mother should have swallowed you, like she did to your brother, who was supposed to be my son

[hood]

The darkhorse for the mets noone seems to speak about is Vargas. But Schoenweis is a bum he had half of a good year he was terrible with Toronto. Sanchez is nice, Heilman is above average, Williams is a bum always has been, Mota see Schoenweis, Wagner you know what your gettin,Burgos has potential if he can find the strike zone, Feliciano is OK, Adkins who?, Soler please.

[nrmax88]

We buried u last year, reigning NL EAST champs baby, all that matters. How many WS did the braves win in those 14 years? 1? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH you idiots had your chances, 14 of them, now its time for a real team, in a real city for that matter, not some redneck town where theres only like 20 baseball fans and everyone else is busy haven sex with their own sister or watching a bullriding rodeo show. LOL GEORGIA..... Howdy Yall, were the here braves and we won 14 straight here division title. Still, nobody wanted to come watch our here games at the Ted, cause we suck and us rednecks have more important matter to attend to, I have a date with my cousin tonight

[JerseyMetFan]

Not badass, but there is A LOT of potential in that group, just like MOST of the Braves bullpen.

PROVEN (not relying on potential) relievers:
Mets - Wagner, Heilman, Sanchez, maybe Feliciano

Braves - Wickman, Soriano, Gonzalez

For either team to say their bullpen is way better than the other is just dumb. Honestly, I would give the Mets the slight edge on paper, but as its been said before, bullpen performance can fluctuate VERY easily.

[DonCoburleone]

"Just sit on your porch with a shotgun and a straw in your mouth and shoot the stray cattle as the come strollen by Yall. Dam redneck."

So then I take it you graduated from Harvard? Yale? Columbia? What a genius...

[hood]

The Braves biggest concern in the pen will be of course health but that is every teams number 1 concern. Then comes McBride's walks other than that you know what your gonna get. Wickman is as consistent as you can get. Gonzalez is a stud set-up guy as well as Soriano. Villereal has a rubber arm, and Yates was just as good as Mota when he went over to the Mets or Schoenwies was when he got to the Reds. What everyone fails to realize is the Braves moved a mostly platoon player, a declining 2B, and an oft-injured SP to shore up their biggest weakness the bullpen. Actually turning it into a major strength. Doing all this and dropping payroll that is amazing we are gonna actually have some money at the deadline to shore up whatever our biggest weakness is at the time.

[DonCoburleone]

Sorry nrmax, didn't get the last post... You said something about wishing you could suck my dick? Sorry, we don't do that in Georgia. But I'm sure it would take you no time at all to find a FAG in NY who would be willing...

[hood]

Now I hope they sign Craig Wilson to platoon with Thorman.

[nrmax88]

"Sorry nrmax, didn't get the last post... You said something about wishing you could suck my dick? Sorry, we don't do that in Georgia. But I'm sure it would take you no time at all to find a FAG in NY who would be willing... "

Dam, you dont do that in georgia? Thats dissapointing. Im just fucken with u by the way man, i have family in Georgia, I do find it funny that the braves cant even sell out playoff games though

[beeniez]

"I do find it funny that the braves cant even sell out playoff games though"

The Braves don't have 5 million people living in a 10 mile radius.

[nrmax88]

You make it sound like thats any excuse for not selling out playoff games. The mets and yankees arent the only teams who sell out games, believe it or not

[beeniez]

Well the fan base is a lot more in New York, so it's easier to sell out there. Braves fans cover most of the South, where football is more rampant. You can't penalize the Braves because of their fan region.

With the unlimited funds the Mets have, it's very surprising they're only rotation acquisition was Jorge Sosa. Sosa has always been terrible with no one on-base. In 2005, he found that magic touch that enabled him to have a .200 BAA when people were on-base. They called him Houdini because of his ability to get out of jams. He didn't quite find that magic touch last year, or the other years before 2005.

[JerseyMetFan]

The only pitchers that the Mets should have gone after were Zito, Matsuzaka, and Schmidt.

They lost out on Matsuzaka due to Boston's crazy bid.

They lost out on Zito due to SF's crazy offer.

Schmidt was never leaving the west coast.

I can't praise Omar enough for refusing to sign the Ted Lily's, Jeff Suppan's, and Gil Meche's of the world to insane contracts.

Mark my words... Jeff Suppan won't be $10M better than Maine, Ollie, or whoever the Mets 5th starter is.

[nrmax88]

Omar loves the sosas of the world. Just like oliver perez, mota, and burgos. Buy low, see if you can fix these guys up because they obviously have the talent, and have had succes before, all low risk high reward deals. They cant hurt. If one of them turns into something decent, then its a great move, if not, then their gone and nobody is affected

[firesticks]

Quit lieing to yourself. Burgos hit 100 on the gun once in a bullpen session. ONCE. He throws 96-97, not 100. His splitter, while nasty, he cannot control it one bit. It's always in the dirt and no one ever swings at it. Sure he has potential, no one doubts that. But theres a reason he put up a 5.6 ERA last year, he was just terrible. He should be in the minors refining his control.

Best case scenario he has an Octavio Dotel like career.

[Yars]

Braves can't afford Craig Wilson. 1B is Scott Thorman's to lose. Atlanta made a mistake by not addressing the bullpen problems last season, until it was too late. Cost Atlanta NL wildcard. Braves roster is finally taking shape and the only gaps that need to be filled are LF and a left handed hitter coming off the bench. If Kelly Johnson wins the 2B job, he will bat leadoff. I's sad what is happening to Chipper. He hasn't played a full season in 3 years. If he can stay healthy, look for him to put up .320/30/100 numbers. Francoeur needs to relax at the plate, and start going up there with a plan. His Vlad Guerrero approach at the plate gives me a headache. Andruw Jones will end his last season in Atlanta with .275/44/128 type numbers, then will disappear. Sign a huge contract with Anaheim or the White Sox. Atlanta will not have much of a problem with their offense this season. Their bullpen is now solid, and the starting pitching is already set. Hudson needs to pitch like his old self. He isn't bad, just mediocre. Braves fans & mgmt expect more out of him. Chuck James is the real deal. I wouldn't be surprised if Smoltz stays healthy all season & wins 20. NL East will be the most exciting division this season. I give Braves the edge right now since Pedro Martinez may not be back until after the all star break. The Mets will miss him dearly. I love Glavine, but I think he doesn't have much gas left in him and will put up sloppy numbers this season.

[DonCoburleone]

"Mark my words... Jeff Suppan won't be $10M better than Maine, Ollie, or whoever the Mets 5th starter is."

Neither will Tom Glavine... And I believe he's making $11mil this year...

[nrmax88]

Firsticks, how many guys get called up at 20 and actually have success? His numbers are more a reflection of bad player management and a bad pitching coach, he obviously has the tools too succeed

[nrmax88]

"Mark my words... Jeff Suppan won't be $10M better than Maine, Ollie, or whoever the Mets 5th starter is."

Neither will Tom Glavine... And I believe he's making $11mil this year..."

These are the kinds of posts that really annoy me. Are you saying signing tom glavine to a 1 year 11 million dollar deal is the same thing as signing meche for 5/55 or suppan for 4/40? If you are, then I dont know what to say to you

[stormstarter28]

nrmax- he was talking about THIS year, not the entire contracts, and you know it.

saying Suppan won't be 10 mil better than your 5th starter is pointless, because Suppan isn't worth 10 mil in the first place. All Don said was that Glavine isn't worth 11 mil, which is also true. Don't try to spin this and make it sound like he said the contract signings are the same...that's ridiculous.

[nrmax88]

Glavine isnt worth 11 mil over 1 year? Wow. Ok. But Suppan is worth 4/40. Whata joke. You cant just compare the money a guy is making without looking at how many years the contract is. If Suppan was signed to a 1 year 10 million dollar deal, I would consider it one of the better signings of the offseason. 4/40, not so much. There is a gigantic difference.

[nrmax88]

And he was comparing Glavines contract to that of Suppans or Meche. He responded to the first post, saying that Suppan is not worth 10 mil more then Maine or Perez. Don responded by saying sarcastically, no but glavine is worth it. To me, that looks like comparing the 2 contracts, which you cant do by just looking at the salary per year and not the years. You dont know what your talking about, he most definitely compared glavines deal to suppans, and anybody saying they would rather have suppan for 4/40 instead of glavine 1/11 either doesnt understand the game, or doesnt understand the talent level of the 2 pitchers

[DonCoburleone]

I believe the contract Glavine got was 2 years and $24 mil... So yes, I'd rather have Suppan at 4/$40...

[DonCoburleone]

And nrmax, I figured after watching Suppan dominate the Mets lineup in the NLCS you would want him on your team... Guess not...

[nickjs21]

"We buried u last year, reigning NL EAST champs baby, all that matters. How many WS did the braves win in those 14 years? 1? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH you idiots had your chances, 14 of them, now its time for a real team, in a real city for that matter, not some redneck town where theres only like 20 baseball fans and everyone else is busy haven sex with their own sister or watching a bullriding rodeo show. LOL GEORGIA..... Howdy Yall, were the here braves and we won 14 straight here division title. Still, nobody wanted to come watch our here games at the Ted, cause we suck and us rednecks have more important matter to attend to, I have a date with my cousin tonight"

"Sorry nrmax, didn't get the last post... You said something about wishing you could suck my dick? Sorry, we don't do that in Georgia. But I'm sure it would take you no time at all to find a FAG in NY who would be willing... "

The two dumbest posts.
Ever.
Anywhere.

Georgia people talk like southerners, therefore the Mets bullpen is better?

A large amount of homosexuals live in New York, therefore the Braves bullpen is better?

[DonCoburleone]

"A large amount of homosexuals live in New York, therefore the Braves bullpen is better?"

YES!

[JerseyMetFan]

So because Suppan got hot in the playoffs, we should want him on our team? Give me a break. Anyone can get hot in the playoffs (see: Jeff Weaver, who still doesn't have a job).

Glavine signed a 1 year deal for $7.5M, and a player option for 08 at $9M. If you would rather have Jeff Suppan for 4/40, then feel free. I find that VERY hard to believe.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2682818

They say 10.5 for 2007 bc they factor in his 2006 buyout.

[nrmax88]

nickjs, i wasnt being serious, if you read a few posts down, i told him i was jus fucking around, i have family who live in georgia, i have nothing against the south. It was a joke. Glavine has an option for 08, not gaurunteed. You would rather have Campbell soup then glavine? Wow. Yeah he did dominate the mets, always has, doesnt seem to matter who has on a mets uniform. He is an average pitcher at best, and no, I wouldnt want him anywhere near the mets, but i just dont like him, so that is a part of my reasoning. I dont know if you are just lying to prove a point, but just out of curiosity, how many people in this room would rather have Suppan to 4/40 then Glavinefor 1/11 with an option? I want to know if im the only one. Nice call on Craig Wilson hood.

[nrmax88]

Thank you jersey, I mean seriously don, are you trying so hard to prove a point that you are willing to make yourself look ridiculous in the process? (I ask because I do this all the time).
Saying you would rather have Suppan for 4 years then Glavine for 2, no matter what the price, is ridiculous, and you should be ashamed, especially being a braves, and former tom glavine fan. That like if i go off on mike piazza just to prove the A's suck. Whats the point. Glavine is obviously one of the greatest pitchers to ever live, and is still a top 30 pitcher. He is better then Suppan talent wise, and his contract is muc more reasonable. Yet, you are ripping one of your former heroes, a big reason for your 14 straight titles that you wont shut up about, yet now that hes a met, he sucks and suppan is better. Good job

[DonCoburleone]

Here is the comparison of Tom Glavine (with the Mets - past 4 years) vs. what Jeff Suppan has done with the Cardinals (past 4 years). The past 4 seasons: Jeff Suppan - 57W-37L; 4.01ERA; 778 IP; 1.38WHIP ---- Tom Glavine - 48W-48L; 3.87ERA; 805 IP; 1.37WHIP... So why exactly do you want Glavine for a million more a season? Seems like VERY similar numbers to me... Only difference being Suppan was 20 games over .500 while Tom Glavine was right at .500... So yeah, I can back up what I said with ACTUAL NUMBERS!

[DonCoburleone]

And Glavine wasn't my favorite either, Maddux was. And I will argue Maddux right now is on the same level as Suppan and Glavine!

[JerseyMetFan]

HELLLLLLOOOOOO MCFLY....

Glavine's 2007 salary is $7.5M. His 2008 salary is $9M.

Get the numbers right.

[nrmax88]

Your hopeless. A 1 year deal for glavine for 20 million is still better then committing 4 years 40 million to suppan. As many have said, W/L arent really important. The mets sucked for 2 years. The 3rd year they were 500 team. This was the only season Glavine was on a good team. You are still arguing the fact that Suppans contract is better then glavines. Go ahead, your obviously not going to change your mind. Steve Trachsels last 4 full seasons he is 12 games over 500, with an era right around 4 , averaging about 180 innings a year. Lets sign him for 4 years 40 mil!

[nrmax88]

Now you support your arguement by saying glavine wasnt even your favorite, Maddux was, therefore, Glavines contributions meant nothing so your arguement is wrong. What a joke

[nrmax88]

Now you support your arguement by saying glavine wasnt even your favorite, Maddux was, therefore, Glavines contributions meant nothing so your arguement is wrong. What a joke

[nrmax88]

Another good point was also brought up before about Gonzalez, do you really feel comfortable for him to be a horse for your pen? A guy you can co to in the 7th or 8th inning almost every night? He has never pitched more then 50 something innings in a season, and had arm soreness last year. Whos to say he isnt going to wear down again this year?

[vt_Brady2705]

That's the beauty of having 2 set-up men in Soriano and Gonzalez. You don't have to yank the starter after 6 innings every single game, and then go Soriano, Gonzalez, and Wickman. Heck, a lot of the wins I bet will have the starter going 7, then Soriano for 8, and Wickman for 9, and then the next time around it'll be Gonzalez going in for Soriano.

The fact is that guys like Tyler Yates, Macay McBride, Chad Paronto, and Oscar Villarreal are all going to also get time in, and they're not going to just come in for long-situations. They might not get the call in a 1-run game in the 8th inning, but that 4-some will be getting the bulk of innings, and Soriano and Gonzalez could both probably only have to go 50 innings in 2007, and neither would be being underused. With 2 great set-up options, a very dependable closer, and 4 solid middle-relief arms, you don't have to worry about overworking guys like Gonzalez or Soriano.

[bravesbeast]

http://braves.scout.com/2/610745.html

I know it may be too late, but if u doubt the other pieces of the braves bullpen, check out this article over at scout.com. Im talking about the other relievers we have besides gonzo, soriano, and wickman.

Mckay Mcbirde: 1.91 era is his last 35 appearances

Oscar Villereal: 2.63 era in his last 20 appearances, including a 3.50 ERA in four starts in september

Tyler Yates: 2.35 ERA over his last 17 appearances

It seems that the other people in our pen aren't so bad as some might predict. I think these numbers support the fact that the Braves well definately not give up as many leads as they have in the past. This also makes u think that maybe spinning gonzo for a leadoff leftfielder would not be such a bad idea after all. I would actually consider a crisp for gonzo trade if I were atlanta, maybe having the bosox throw in delcaman or delcarman, which ever it is, and we give them a shortstop prospect, such as yunel escobar, who could play second.

My proposal:

Bosox: Mike gonzalez and Yunel Escobar

Braves: Coco Crisp and Manny Delcarman( Delcaman)

Again, as usual, just pure speculation

[toshiro]

Mike Gonzalez has had a 1.32 whip the past two years (and got WORSE) last year. Not exactly 'lights out'. Doesn't that worry anyone?

LaRoche batted .285 with 32 HR in less than a full season and he'll be coming into his prime years starting next year.

I'm looking forward to watching Pittsburgh last year. Been years since they had a quality 1B.