Andruw Campaigns For A Starter

Andruw Jones, perhaps emboldened by his recent hot streak, is openly campaigning for the Braves to acquire a starting pitcher.  Even if John Smoltz comes back strong, one more veteran would fit in nicely behind Tim Hudson and Chuck James.

According to David O'Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the Braves were in on Mark Buehrle but Kenny Williams wanted Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Yunel Escobar for him.  That would have been quite a bounty for a rental.

The names I think we'll be hearing in trade rumors this month as far as starters: Matt Morris, Kyle Lohse, Jason Jennings, Jon Garland, and Jose Contreras.  There should be a few more second or third tier type guys as well (Odalis Perez, Steve Trachsel, Joe Kennedy, Wade Miller, Josh Fogg, Brett Tomko).  I would not be surprised to see Oakland become sellers in short order, but they don't have much starting pitching to trade with Rich Harden and Esteban Loaiza injured.

Comments

[gtliles]

Makes you wonder why Atlanta didn't take a flyer on Maroth. He was had for virtually nothing.

[bravesbeast]

I think that at least one reason why the braves did not take a flyer on maroth is because he is a soft tossing lefty who has had control problems, at least while he was with detroit. That is the same type of pitcher that Mark Redman was, and he did not exactly dominate. Now, Maroth could do very well, just take a look at jamie moyer, but the reason moyer is so good is because he can locate his pitces anywhere he wants. But I am fairly certain the mark redman failure was the reason we took wilfredo ledezma instead of maroth in the mccay mcbride trade.

My personal preference would be to get matt morris, he is a verteran who knows how to pitch, and does not seem to have lingering arm problems from earlier in his career. I also do not think it would require salty or escobar, so if the braves could get him by giving up middle infield prospect, such as prado, lillibridge, or fontaine, and another lower lever prospect, I certainly would have no quips about slotting morris behind hudson and smoltz when he gets back. And while not likely, i still would love the see the braves at least inquire about noah lowry.

[Aduncaroo]

I think Morris is pitching out of his mind this year....and I really don't think he is that good. I also think that the giants would try and snag Escobar for him....Salty is not happening. I don't think Morris is worth Escobar....but if they can get him for one of the guys that you mentioned...you may be right. Morris is a pretty solid #4 starter.

[Aduncaroo]

But if I'm the braves...I try and get Garland for a package that starts with Escobar and ends with anyone not having the longest last name in the majors....of the prospects.

[bravesbeast]

You know what Aduncaroo, I actually really would like Garland, but over at rotoworld.com, they just had a thing about how garland feels his shoulder is not at 100%, and that he thinks he just needs to deal with it, and it might last for the rest of his career, and if he cannot learn to pitch through it, he should just not pitch anymore. I do not know if he is just trying to convince himself that a little pain is normal, but there something wrong that has been there for a while without him knowing. So, because of that, I am now kinda of skeptical about going after garland. But hey, if we can land him, by all means we should at least try.

But, the braves may be a little hesitant about going after pitchers who have had recent arm trouble. Remember, the braves took a while to become convinced to require a left handed reliever who had just had arm trouble, and now Mike Gonzalez is out for the rest of the year with tommy john surgery.

[BravoFan3736]

Morris for Escobar what a JOKE! Morris is pitching way over his head this season. A couple prospects would get this done. Morris is at best a #4 SP which I see no plans to help next year. Brian Seabian is getting canned IMO at the end of the season which if JS can take advantage of that though NO ESCOBAR for MORRIS. Ridiculious!!

[Land-Man]

Atlanta needs a center fielder who can hit over .200 and not strike out three times a game.

[boomshwa12]

is it really that rediculous to fathom bravofan? i agree with you about morris, he's a decent 3 or 4 at best, but he may be the best starter on the market this summer with the likes of jennings and garland. factor in the constant demand for pitching and your looking at a pretty absurd trade if you really want the pitching.

[Aduncaroo]

I hadn't heard that about Garland...but I would still take a shot if I could land him.

Bravo...I agree with what you said. All I said was that the Giants are going to try to get Escobar. Can you blame them? Morris' value is at a 2 or 3 year high...they are going to try and take advantage of that.

Anyone think they might trade Andruw and he would approve it?

[beauhoopman]

Garland had a 3.10 ERA before Saturday's epic-bad outing. I don't know whether that means that the shoulder just got bad, but it at least indicates that its not really a chronic issue.

[Aduncaroo]

I agree...if a guy is having shoulder problems with a 3.10 era....I hope its contagious!

[JayTheRed]

I think Cincy would be smart to try and deal Lohse. Over the past month maybe a little less he has had 2 complete games and has been pitching into the 7th inning in most of his starts. I think teams would take a flyer on him but I am not really sure what Cincy can get in return any ideas anyone.

[darkstar1661]

Couple things...

The Braves are sitting in a rather nice spot right now ~ they are clumpted together with 3 NLW teams for the wildcard, and those 3 will be playing eachother a lot over the 2nd half. With them also chasing a team with its share of problems, the chances of making the playoffs seem pretty good with the club they have now...

The Braves are also a team which historicly won't give up tomorrow for a slightly better chance today. Trading important prospects for a 3-4 type just doesn't seem to match their style, and prob wouldn't help much anyway since they really need someone more likely to make an impact in a short series.

Today vs the Future... Most of the guys being talked about as possibly being traded from Atl are the types who could really help them the next couple years. Is Atl going to sacrifice next year just to slightly increase its odds in 07, but not really help too much in the playoffs?

So I really don't see them pushing too hard to bring in someone who isn't a real difference maker, if they do bring someone in, it would prob be a guy who is a commodity over the next couple years ~ someone signed for a couple years under a reasonable amount with little trackrecord of injury. Well, good luck finding that right?

Bedard is the best fit in my mind, with the name types just costing too much in terms of prospects, money and risk. If they are going to give up a little more then they would prob like to, he just fits their style more IMO.

Morris, Vasquez, Garland, etc would be nice, but would they help more than the cost?

[Aduncaroo]

"Morris, Vasquez, Garland, etc would be nice, but would they help more than the cost?"

Yes...Morris would probably help more than the cost if they didn't give up Salty or Escobar...and the other two, especially Garland, would help them a lot. They would probably be favored over the Mets and with a rotation that went Smoltz, Hudson, Garland at the top...they would be favored in almost every playoff series.

Thats the kind of rotation dreams are made of...so I would give up Escobar and more for Garland any day. He has another year after this one as well...

[Aduncaroo]

OK....maybe not Morris...I really am not a huge fan...just think they need another starter. But Garland for sure...and Vasquez depending on the price.

[darkstar1661]

Garland = high priced, overrated #3-4 type who will cost you a ton of talent in return (as KW has been asking for 2top prospects for all his guys)...

So money = bad, cost = bad, and return = not extreme...

Morris, if the cost isn't as extreme could be a little better, but its a high dollar contract for a team that can't take them on...

Vasquez, a little cheaper but much more of a risk...

And Smoltz, Hudson and Garland is not a dream rotation. It would be good, but the return for the cost just doesn't make sense...

[darkstar1661]

Ok, before I get a reply on that I figured I would explain more what I mean by "cost"...

“Cost” = Whatever they are giving up prospect wise + whoever the additional contract commitment would cost the team for 08.

Say they traded for Garland and did have to surrender Salty and/or Escobar plus a couple other prospects. Garland inturn also costs the team 12m next year, almost completely eliminating the chance of resigning one of Jones/Smoltz (or a comparable player). The cost now turned to Salty/Escobar + more prospects + best current Pit/Hit for Garland in terms of 2008. Thats huge...

As its stands though, if they keep Escobar they could always deal off Renteria, eliminating quite a bit of contract. If they keep Salty they can either use him at 1st or trade him for a cheap young high-ceiling pitcher. If they dont add 12m then they could sign one of Smoltz/Jones. It gives them lots of options for next season and, like I said, the Braves are not a team to trade their future for a slight upgrade today...

The upgrade would need to be either extreme, long-term or cheap prospect wise ~ Garland/Vasquez/Morris/etc just don’t fit those situations at all…

[Aduncaroo]

if you could get Garland without giving up Escobar, than that makes it even better because you could still deal Renteria and get prospects or another need in return....still get rid of the contract and have money to sign Smoltz, and still have Garland. I am leaving resigning Jones off....he is not going to be worth near what he gets.

I think that ANY team would DREAM of having a rotation that starts with Smoltz, Hudson, and Garland. Can you name two that are better in all of baseball?

Garland is at least a #2...to say he is a 3 or 4 is pretty dumb....sorry, but it is. Nearly any team would pay Garland 12 mil for next year and love every second of it. Plus, they have no commitment after that.

If I am the Braves...I go after Garland even if it does mean Escobar...they are immediately a favorite in the NL if they do that deal...with Jones leaving, they should be able to resign Smoltz for at least another year and they can still trade Renteria if they need to.

Ask most Braves fans if they would rather have Garland or Escobar...along with the "cost", and I think most would take Garland....I could be wrong...

I understand what you are saying, I just think that its totally worth the "cost"...but maybe I value Garland more than you do.

[rype123]

I don't think Garland is going anywhere. Remember what Kenny Williams was asking for Buehrle? He'll be asking for at least that, if not more for Garland, since he is under contract for next year. Garland is a top of the rotation guy (1-2 depending on team), and he had 18 wins in each of the last 2 years. Plus his contract for next season given the market is a bargain. If Williams was talking to the Braves, my guess is it would be Escobar + Salty + ???.

Probably the only starting pitcher that could be pried away without much from the Sox would be Contreras. Vazquez is having a good year this year also, and is under contract for another 2-3 years. His win total is low, but that was because of a lack of run support.

[darkstar1661]

See, I don’t agree with Garland being a #2 at all ~ I mean his BB-Ref comparables are Paul Byrd, Cory Lidle, ElDuque, Mark Clark, Ramon Ortiz, Jarrod Washburn, Joey Hamilton, Jose Guzman, Ben McDonald and Kris Benson ~ no one on there screams “wow” to me, all of them do say “3-4 type” though … (well, outside Washburn I guess) And I don’t see anything stat-wise which can really be pointed to say he’s “at least a #2” either…

He’s a 4.5+ ERA type with a +W% only because of the team he’s been on helping him win 18 two years in a row. He does eat innings, but provides nothing spectacular otherwise in the way of results. And he’s signed for 12m for next year, then walks… He had a great 05 just like the other Sox pitchers who played above their head, but otherwise has been consistently slightly-above-average.

As far as better 1-3 than Smoltz/Hudson/Garland? Well, if I only started in the NL-W I would add everyone outside the Rockies… (Peavy/Young/Maddux, Webb/Johnson/Davis, Penny/Lowe/Schmidt, Zito/Cain/Lowry)

Now, again as far as cost ~ we are talking about Salty and/or Escobar + more+12m in 08 for a team worried about money and losing their two best players here! They would be much better off in 08 without trying to get Garland now, and only slightly better the rest of the way ~ afterall, Smoltz/Hudson/James is as good as, if not better than Smoltz/Hudson/Garland…

Garland would be the Braves #4 for the rest of 07 and probably cost them their #1 next year while also costing them at least 1 top-prospect plus a couple of other plus-type guys…

[braves#1]

Garland is out of the question. If we would take a salary like that JS would try Real hard to try to trade for Oswalt. Oswalt will probably not go nowhere, but the Astros lack positions that are strengths for us such as: a Catcher(Salty), 3rd Baseman(Escobar), Future Closer(Devine), and a Young Starter in the minors that the Astros can pick from, or two young Starters if necessary. I dont think the Astros are gonna trade Oswalt, but I could see JS trying for that before a guy like Garland. But we dont have the money for neither one, but Oswalt would be the choice.

[darkstar1661]

See, Oswalt would be that "difference maker" type starter I was talking about. He would be worth the cost!

Garland really just isn't that good, and wouldn't be worth the sacrifices it would take to get him...

[boomshwa12]

i think if the astros traded oswalt r/n the entire astros fanbase would riot. he's the most respected player in the clubhouse as well, and he's signed for 5 more years. let's kill that boner real quick.

however, if js really likes his chances to win it all this year or the next, he would be a wise man to come up with some sort of mega offer like that. i would bust a nut if oswalt was traded, but that's a helluva bounty braves#1

[boomshwa12]

by the way, what kind of player is escobar projected to be? i know he's a good prospect, but who's a good comparison for him?

[darkstar1661]

ironiclly, the closest comp I have heard is Renteria with a bit better glove. He can also play anywhere in the infield, so he could really help fill a teams need I imagine...

[braves#1]

boomshwa12,

No doubt the Astros fans would be mad, but listen that team has so MANY HOLES on the field. That would be a trade that I would give up BOTH Salty AND Escobar for. I dont see us getting Oswalt either, But he would be much better than trading Salty or Escobar or Perhaps both for Garland, and Kenny Williams would probably get both IF he traded Garland to Atlanta. All I said was if we gotta give them up make ONE Helluva offer to the Astros for Oswalt that they would really have to think about. But we cant afford neither, or Vasques, or Contreras, or Morris(unless the Giants eat most of his contract up next year).

boomshwa12, IF you were GM of the Braves and could get Oswalt for the package that I said earlier would you do it?

[darkstar1661]

Braves#1, know I'm not booms but...

If I was Houston ~ it would be too hard to pass that up...

Oswalt is amazing, but he is one man who makes a lot of money (although I do know its not as much as he could). Hou is in a possition though where they just have holes everywhere and being able to bring in 3 guys who will fill some of those near-instantly is almost insane to pass up. Salty projects to Vmart, Escobar projects to E-Rent and Devine is one heck of a fine hurler ~ and they come at no dollar cost over the next 5 years or so. With the money saved you then try to sign a Zambrano type this offseason and you have your star pitcher again with those 3 holes plugged.

Are they sure things since they have no experence really, of course not ~ but even if one doesn't live up to the potential you still have the two that do. Plus you're giving me a 4th guy right? Now, the only real difference is I'm paying Zam 5-6mil more a year than Oswalt, but I think that's a small price to pay for Salty+Escobar+Devine+???.

Only problems come in A) would create 40man problems and the Stros would prob want ATL to take another bad contract off their hands to fix it a bit, and B) Hou thinks they are still in the race and are expecting that miracle 2nd have push again...

As the Braves GM though, I don't think it would be worth it at all... It would mean you have to keep ERent as there isn't another MLready SS, would still have the possible hole at 1st, be giving up 3 (maybe4) guys who could make a big impact on the near future of the club or be traded for that impact, taking on what is a big contract for your club and really only replacing Smoltz for the future aside from this years obvious improvement. They can't find a more established pitcher for less money, but with the side-effects it just doesn't fit that well. Finding a CFer, LFer, 1B and a couple of arms for 08 then becomes so much harder...

It depleats ATL a bit too much to make sense IMO...

[ZachAttack]

Catcher(Salty), 3rd Baseman(Escobar), Future Closer(Devine), and a Young Starter in the minors that the Astros can pick from, or two young Starters if necessary

So your proposed offer is: Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Yunel Escobar, Joey Devine, Jo-Jo Reyes/Matt Harrison/Tommy Hanson/Neftali Feliz? I would commit suicide if the Braves gave that much up. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't do that if it meant us winning the World Series.

[Thundersticks]

Smoltz is already signed for next year with an option.

While Garland is a fine pitcher, he's not an intimidator like we need and KW is going to ask for the world for him.

Andruw will not be back unless he takes a serious home-town discount, which I don't see happening this time around.

Oswalt would be sweet, but it would cost too much to get him.

Morris is over-rated, but has postseason experience, is a good pitcher, and would not cost as much as some of the others.

The perfect scenario - and I'm not saying it will happen - would be Willis. He's a lefty, he's likable, he's young, he's still relatively cheap but could be signed to an extension, and would fit nicely on the Braves staff. He and Oswalt are about the only guys I would even consider trading Salty for - at least that have been mentioned so far.

[Aduncaroo]

but can any of you braves fans honestly say that you wouldn't give up Escobar in a heartbeat for Garland???

Garland is MUCH better than a #4...and Smoltz, Hudson, Garland would be better than probably any of those others you mentioned...you aren't counting health in those equations...which takes out the dodgers and the D-backs....and I'd still take that over the Giants. Garland in the NL would be awesome...believe me. Before the last start, he had a 3.10 era in the AL central, and you are telling me he is simply a 4.5 era pitcher and still would be in the NL?? Come on. He is a terriffic #2...

Oswalt would be amazing...I just don't see the Astros trading him unless they are blown away. He is signed for below his market value for years to come. Why would they trade him unless its a package like named above? That is the only thing even worth listening to.

If I were a braves fan, I'm sorry, but I would be planning to buy my playoff tickets right now with the aquisition of Garland. I agree that KW probably won't even listen unless he gets Salty and Escobar...but I don't know of anyone that would say they wouldn't give up Esobar in a second for Garland....anyone.

12 mil for what Garland could do in the NL is well, well worth Escobar...probably more. I doubt KW will do it, because he is probably planning on signing him to an extension in the offseason or next year, and building his rotation off of that.

Oh, please don't bring comparisons into the equation...that would kill a lot of players. Comparisons aren't always that great of a measure. Either are wins, which is why I didn't bring up that he leads the majors in wins the last three years...

[Aduncaroo]

Oh...and Escobar's ceiling is Renteria....don't know if I would really compare him to that just yet. From what I have seen, he has a pretty good bat...but I didn't see much from him defensively that was that great...but what I saw was at third, and he had just been called up...so I'm not ready to make a judgement either way on that yet. I think he will be good...especially if he plays SS....he would be way more valuable there than at 3rd if he can play some D.

[boomshwa12]

i just wanted to know what kind of tools escobar had...not set expectations for him.

...and i'm actually an astros fan braves#1 haha. you kinda sounded like you thought i was a braves fan. personally i think i'd do the deal on either side if i was in the drivers seat...with a defribilator on the side to bring me back to life from having a heart attack.

as far as it hurting the braves, isn't lillibridge almost ready at short? they could deal renteria for cap space, let andruw walk, and still keep the core of the offense in tact with mccann, chipper, and francour). hudson, oswalt, and james would form a pretty nice 1-2-3 punch too. if anything i think ya'll would have as good a shot as anytone in the nl at the ws this year w/ oswalt. seems like they would even have a little mula on the side to play around with unless they're trying to shed salary in the offseason.

as much as i'd cringe to see the stros trade oswalt, i almost wonder what they could get for him if they held a firesale and put him on the open market this summer. lord knows ya'll are right about the astros having a lot of holes to fill

[darkstar1661]

Well ADun…

Garland:
4.58 ~ 2002 /// 4.60 *lgERA
4.51 ~ 2003 /// 4.48 *lgERA
4.89 ~ 2004 /// 4.92 *lgERA
3.50 ~ 2005 /// 4.45 *lgERA
4.51 ~ 2006 /// 4.66 *lgERA
3.92 ~ 2007 /// 4.53 *lgERA
*4.80 ~ 2007*
*4.77 ~ 2008*
*5.00 ~ 2009*
*4.51 ~ 2010*
*4.96 ~ 2011*
* = projected by PECOTA /// *lgERA = Park Adjusted League Average ERA
I know you don’t want to hear projected, but there is a reason they are a respected organization…

What we have is a guy with a 4.5-4.9 ERA in 4 of the last 5 years and a projected 5yr ERA of about the same… I don’t think calling him a 4.5+ ERA is out of line at all with that being the case, how do you figure it is? You can also see that those ERAs are right about League Average as far as the park goes…

I’m not saying he’s a bum, but I can’t understand why anyone would stress he’s a #2 like you seem to be. Like I said, he’s pretty much league average and those numbers show that. What would it translate into as far as pitching in Atl? Well, if he stays at about *lgERA then we should expect something like 4.20ish. Also, his NRA of 4.28-4.62 in those 4 years matches up near perfect with the *lgERA, so yeah, its probably safe to say it would be in that 4.20 range.

And now, how would that be much of an upgrade from James ~ James has been sub 4.0 the last 1.5 years afterall…

As far as you liking Smoltz/Hudson/Garland over Webb/Johnson/Davis, Penny/Lowe/Schmidt, or Zito/Cain/Lowry ~ that’s your opinion and its cool, but it shows the point which was to show it isn’t such an amazing dream rotation as you claimed. And I only chose from 5 of the 30 ML teams to come up with 4 arguably better 1-3 guys…

And it wasn’t actually Escobar’s “ceiling”, it was his closest comparison as far as skill type. Sure, he hasn’t put it up yet, but his actual ability is said to produce somewhere in that range ~ and it could be better or worse just the same. His ceiling is impossible to predict as some guys produce much more power or develop a better eye or whatever than they are expected to do. Just like Salty is projected to be in the 20-25HR range, but many experts actually expect something more in the 30-40HR range… Do we then call Escobar “Renteria” ~ no, but if you want to know what he should put up number wise then look at Renteria.

Lastly, would I trade Escobar for Garland ~ yeah, of course… but it would actually take much more than Escobar to get Garland from the Sox, and if anything was really added then the cost would probably start to outweigh the return… The asking price of Salty + Y.E.+? is just insane, and since Garland doesn’t really upgrade the 3man rotation and adds a dollar amount which is hard for Atl to swallow, then it just doesn’t make sense…

[darkstar1661]

Booms,

Oh shoot, forgot all about Lillibridge didnt I...

I'm not actually a Braves fan myself; just watch the team closely as I'm fascinated at the way they can continually produce a contender with what quite often amounts to smoke and mirrors.

[braves#1]

darkstar1661,

smoke and mirrors? Dude thats called having a GREAT Farm System. The Braves Spend ALOT of MONEY on their Farm System. And they KNOW how to draft Very Good players. How is it smoke and mirrors dude? The Braves have Some Very Good players on their team. smoke and mirrors means when a team is not very good and somehow does good. The Braves are a good team, and they have had injuries that have really hurt them, hell if they had a few less injuries we would be in First Place right now! I dont understand how you say smoke and mirrors are involved with the Braves.

[darkstar1661]

Braves, sorry ~ it was little more than a bad choice of words.

I didn't mean to say they do anything bad, and was actually thinking they do so much right... Smoke and Mirrors really should have said something along the lines of "get the absolute most out of almost anyone they use year in and year out". So many of the guys that come up huge for them are not always the best talent, but they find a way to make it work perfectly for the team so. They also get almost any young kid they use to produce exactly what they need when they need it ~ its just amazing, and so fun to watch! Great talent, less than great talent ~ always results in the same competting Braves...

[ZachAttack]

I just want to say that I absolutely love Renteria, but I think Escobar is the same type of player, only a lot younger and a lot cheaper. I guess if you watch the Braves enough, you will see why I'm so giddy on Escobar. He's always looking to go right center, just like Renteria. He has decent speed, and an even better glove. This guy isn't going to be a perrenial all-star, but I think he may have one or two appearences (as Renteria should be going this year.)

No, I wouldn't trade Escobar for Garland. Why? Value-wise it's a good deal, favored more towards the Braves as they get a young starter. What's holding the Braves back is the fact that they can't add on much more payroll. They are having some hefty pay raises coming up, even though they are going to lose Andruw.

[boomshwa12]

i hear ya about renteria. he'd be a good pick to pattern your game after if you were escobar. and anything he can do with the bat is better than adam everett in houston...with my point being i'd like to see him in houston

however, seeing how renteria has the bigger paycheck coming in, why don't they ship him to the sox for garland? maybe include a prospect to help seal the deal (not a top notch one though). then they could start escobar at short and maybe they could get someone like mike lamb from the stros to sub for chipper if he needs time off for his various ailments

[Aduncaroo]

KW is going to ask for a pretty high prospect + Renteria for Garland. I still might do it if I believed what all of you guys do about Escobar. If he is that close, pull that trigger and Garland pays for himself by shipping out Edgar's contract. Also, that money come off the books after next year.

If you are saying "Sure, he hasn’t put it up yet, but his actual ability is said to produce somewhere in that range" than I guess that means Pie = Beltran. I know what you are saying...but you have to go easy on saying prospects are already proven when they have 50 games under thier belt. Its just like Salty...no one really knows whether he will be a 20HR threat, or a 35....we will see...but we can't pretend to know that yet. He needs a full year to figure that out, as do we.

As for as the pitching goes....Smoltz\Hudson\Garland \james is a dream rotation for a playoff series. I'm not saying its the best that there ever was....but its what every GM and manager hopes that they have going into the playoffs. The other ones you listed are good too, but besides the Giants the rest aren't even true because half are on the DL....and the Giants will be better in a couple of years. Plus, they won't see the playoffs for awhile. Anyway, I never said they were the best in all of baseball...all I'm saying is that its a dream to go into the playoffs set up like that.

3.50 ~ 2005 /// 4.45 *lgERA

are you just ignoring this? He was an awesome #2 then. He didn't do as well last year...but still gave his team a chance to win nearly every time out. He pitches in one of the best hitters parks in the AL, and he plays in the AL central, teams loaded with offense. If you put him in the NL and in Turner Field, you don't think that his ERA would drastically go down?? If you just think he is a 4 or 5...thats cool, its your opinion. I disagree, but thats fine. All I know is that if Garland was on the Braves, they are the favorites in the NL in my book. You don't have to agree, its just how I feel.

[Aduncaroo]

3.50 ~ 2005 /// 4.45 *lgERA

And this is more what he is doing this year....he had one bad outing...and otherwise has pitched like a great #2. I bet this is more where he will end up by the end of the year....and thats in what some people call Coors Field East....which is a launching pad for home runs. Believe me, in turner, his era is under 3.5 consistently.

[darkstar1661]

Adun,

Ok first, nobody said Escobar is currently equal to Renteria in any way… When asked what he should turn out to be like, Renteria is what has to be said. Will he? Well, he is a high ranking prospect with the tools to do so & is showing those skills on the big stage right now. Is it still a gamble? Yeah of course, but you still describe him as a Renteria type. What kind of value does he hold in trades, well it sure isn’t lower just because of the fact that he “should turn out to be Renteria like” and is showing it right now. Maybe you don’t like people saying “Renteria-like” instead of “prospect”, but I don’t know what to tell you…

Oh, and yes, you could say “Pie = Beltran-like” when you are talking about the possible future value IF he had actually shown anything in the majors which points to that being the case. If he hits .330/.370/.500 for a month or so then we will probably be hearing just that, but if he keeps hitting .210/.270/.340ish then it is all potential that has nothing to show it can be reached at the major league level. Bringing a prospect up and watching him do nothing hurts his value, bringing a guy up and watching him do exactly what people say he will do shows that it isn’t just some overblown tag put on him, but that he really should do it. If Escobar was hitting like Pie is it would be “he could eventually be like Renteria”, since he is currently showing his skills it becomes more like “you can see yourself why its said he should be similar to Renteria” ~ ie “Renteria-like”…

Secondly,
(((“He had a great 05 just like the other Sox pitchers who played above their head, but otherwise has been consistently slightly-above-average.”))) ~ me from above…
That is what I started off saying about Garland… You then asked why I would call him a 4.5+ ERA type and I ran down the numbers, but I just didn’t bother to restate what I had already said. That doesn’t mean I am ignoring the 05 numbers at all…

But you say “what about 05” as though it somehow shows he isn’t a 4.5+ERA type, and I can only ask how that would be the case when all of his other years do? If I bat .220, .224, .218, .321 & .223 over a 5 year span, do I get to call myself a .320 hitter because one year I had a fluke season? And you keep saying “well his ERA would be much lower this year if he hadn’t had the bad last start” ~ but he did have it! Its called averaging it out, and at the end of the season his numbers will probably average out to be about a 4.5+ERA. Every year he has a couple games where he gives up a bunch of runs ~ as do all pitchers! ~ we don’t take those out when figuring what kind of pitcher he is; well unless you also want to take out his best starts too I guess…

Thirdly, I also never said he was a #5! Why would you ever make that up about what I am saying? I have continually said that he is a “3-4 type”; and I have really said it over and over and over... And I’m sorry, but his numbers (outside of the fluke 05) say he is a 3-4 type! On a strong pitching team he will be probably be a 4, possibly a 3 if the team isn’t as deep. He is even a #4, possibly #3, on the team which you have him going to!

But you DID make the claim that people wouldn’t be able to find 2 teams with better 1-3s than Smoltz/Hudson/Garland and I gave you 4 teams in one division which are either flat out better or atleast have a strong argument as is the case of SF. So again, you did actually say that Smoltz/Hudson/Garland would be one of the top2 1-3s in baseball when you said “Can you name two that are better in all of baseball?”… But shoot, like I’ve said so often already, even the Braves current 1-3 rotation is arguably better then the one you said was such a “dream”, so even on the team you claim he would make such a difference for in a short series, he is a 3-4 type… In a “short series” like we are talking you might use your 4th man once, if Garland is arguably the Braves #4 and their odds of making the playoffs are pretty good if everything stays the same as it is now then his addition doesn’t make that big of an impact, period… And you go on to say that those 4 rotations I mentioned don’t really count because 2 of them have injured pitchers right this moment? Arent we talking about “in a short series” ~ ie 3 months from now anyway? And don’t the Braves themselves have the same problem you are dismissing the other teams for? I don’t get what youre saying at all in this whole thing…

Now really, you keep claiming he is this “#2, easily” ~ but why? Just because of 2005 and the fact he hasn’t quite seen his ERA go over the 4 mark yet this year? I showed you how 4 of his last 5 ERAs matched the Park-Adjusted League Average almost perfectly, why should we inturn believe he is so much better than League Average? You cant say “because of the park he plays in” ~ that’s what I disproved, that’s what the *lgERA adjusts for! Since his ERA is equal to the *lgERA then it shows how average his ERAs are in that park. If he pitched in the NL we would then have to assume that his numbers would be about what the *lgERA is for whatever park he’s in ~ ie about 4.20 at Turner Field… Saying his numbers would be “consistently under 3.5 at Turner Field” is you’re opinion based off nothing but your wishful speculation; saying he would be about 4.20ish (*lgERA) at Turner would be using his track record and an assumption based off of his actual numbers. “You think” is fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but the numbers actually show that you are being extremely optimistic and are really trying to make him into something much better than he has actually, consistently been.

You can also imply that he gives “his team a chance to win nearly every time out” in reference to the 18Ws, but last year was a complete fluke and the fact that the team scored an average 5.66R of run support showed that he had more help compiling that record then he ever should have. He had 20 Games where the team scored 5+Runs for him, 15 times with 6+R, and even 5 where the team scored 10 or more! That’s nearly 2/3 of his starts where all he had to do was give up less than 5 runs, and about 50% where all he had to do was give up less than 6R to earn the win! Winning 18 under those conditions just doesn’t seem that hard for a league average pitcher…

His 6-11 record this year with a run support slightly higher than his current ERA shows that he infact probably doesn’t give “his team a chance to win nearly every time out”, esp when so much of your argument about him this year is the fact that he only had a 3.19 or whatever going into his last start. If he has averaged 3.19R per game and the team is scoring about 4.10 for him then his 6-11 record shows how bad he actually has been at keeping his team in the game now that his massive run-support has gone away…

And why are you even trying to prove that Garland is better than his actual numbers show he is and really inst “overrated” like so many in the baseball world feel? Just to prove that he is worth trading Escobar for and taking on the 12million when the team cant afford it? Well, I never said he isn’t worth trading Escobar straight up for, it’s the other prospects that would need to be included which creates the problems ~ and no, he isn’t really worth the 12m to the Braves as so many others who are fans of the Braves have stated. He really is a 3-4 type as I’ve more than proved over and over, and a 3-4 type generally gets about that much money (ie Gil Meche and Jake Westbrook in the last couple months). So he isn’t much more than League Average in his respective park (again see *lgERA), and is paid about what you would expect him to be paid; so he isn’t the “difference maker” people said they would like, he isn’t cheap money wise at all, and he will cost a ton to bring in as KW is asking for the whole farm ~ it just doesn’t make much sense given the situation the team is actually in…

[Aduncaroo]

4.58 ~ 2002 /// 4.60 *lgERA
4.51 ~ 2003 /// 4.48 *lgERA
4.89 ~ 2004 /// 4.92 *lgERA
3.50 ~ 2005 /// 4.45 *lgERA
4.51 ~ 2006 /// 4.66 *lgERA
3.92 ~ 2007 /// 4.53 *lgERA

Is he not under the average in all but one of these?

Is he not RIGHT NOW, with the bad start, closer to 3.5 than he is to 4.5??????

I guess none of that matters though....

[Aduncaroo]

Where did I say he was worth trading the farm for? I said he was worth trading Escobar for....and you yourself keep saying how you can't say otherwise.

You said 3 or 4...I thought you said 4 or 5...my bad. I still think he is easily a 2.

The guy is only 27. So if you take his last three seasons....well, 2 and a half, than these are the numbers.

3.50 ~ 2005 /// 4.45 *lgERA
4.51 ~ 2006 /// 4.66 *lgERA
3.92 ~ 2007 /// 4.53 *lgERA

He leads the majors in wins the last three years...which as you pointed out...doesn't mean a TON, but it does mean that he is doing his job. If he was pitching badly he wouldn't be winning more than anyone else in baseball.

Like I just said...he is closer RIGHT NOW to a 3.5 than a 4.5 in one of the best hitters parks in baseball....and you seem to think he wouldn't be under 4 at Turner Field????

He is 27...so you can use his seasons from when he was 22 and 23 all you want....but this last couple of years are a much better reflection of whats to come.

I'll take him as a #2 any day of the week...

Oh, and you didn't give me three that were better.

(Peavy/Young/Maddux, Webb/Johnson/Davis, Penny/Lowe/Schmidt, Zito/Cain/Lowry)

Johnson sucks for the rest of his career that is problably over...davis isn't that good...Arizona is out.

Giants is good...but for the next two years...I'll still take Smoltz\Hudson\Garland because Zito isn't that good anymore and the other two will be better in a few years.

Peavy\Young\Maddux...this one is interesting because Peavy is terriffic. Young is pitching out of his mind right now...I don't see that lasting. Maddux just isn't that good anymore. I know, I'm a cubs fan. He doesn't pitch at all like a 3....maybe in Petco because all those fly balls fall short....maybe. That one is close.

Dodgers....Penny is out of his head right now...they never dreamed he would pitch this well. There was even talk of him being let go. Schmidt is terrible this year...can't throw 90. Hitters eyes will light up if they see him. Lowe is ok....I'll take Smoltz\Hudson\Garland any day.

So...you gave me one that I consider ligitimate....and I think Boston is right up there. And there are 4 pitchers used in the playoffs...not just three. There are more rounds than one. Do you not think that Reyes had any impact on the WS last year? I would beg the differ.

Garland would make a large impact on the Braves now, and next year...and if they didn't give him an extension, they would get 12mil off the books after that. Sounds pretty good for Escobar.

I just think that you fall in love with prospects when they have played less than a third of a season....thats all I was saying. I also think that you using Garlands 22 and 23 year old seasons is stupid as hell. How did Maddux do his first couple of years? Come on dude. You don't have to agree that he is a 2...I think we can come to some agreement that he is a 3 on a good team....in which case I believe the rotation would be awesome. But You can say 3 on a bad and 4 on a good team...which is fine, whatever. Either way...this doesn't need to become our Derrek Lee, Soriano and Ramirez vs. Rolen discussion....lets just leave it as it is.

[Aduncaroo]

"There was even talk of him being let go."

I meant trade rumors...not let go...my bad.

[Aduncaroo]

and I never said kenny would do just Escobar...just making the point that Garland is definitely worth Escobar.

If you don't think Garland going from 3.9 era in US Cellular (aka Coors Field East) to Turner Field would result in 3.5 era or less...than we COMPLETELY disagree. Is that really what you are saying??

You are telling me that 3.9 era goes to 4.2 moving from a hitters park to a pitchers???

[Aduncaroo]

"saying his numbers would be “consistently under 3.5 at Turner Field” is you’re opinion based off nothing but your wishful speculation"

b*llshi*! Is it that crazy of me to say:

"His era is 3.92 in a 4.53 *lgERA park.....

therefore...why the HELL would it go UP in a much better PITCHERS park????

Speculation?? What a joke

[rype123]

Those sure look like League averages, not adjusted ERA's, as they are higher than his actual ERA. At least in what was posted. Those definitely aren't adjusted for him, since his would be lower when you factor in the park he plays in, and that he's in the AL. I think if he moved to Turner Field, his ERA would be pretty close to 4.00 and possibly below it.

I don't know how a 3.1 ERA isn't giving enough for your team to win. The Sox sucked at the beginning of the year and couldn't hit anything. It's hard to win when you give up 3 runs, but your team can't score more than 2. Yeah last year he had some run support, but in 05 he looked pretty good. I agree you can look at all of his numbers, but being 27, I think you also have to take into account what he has done the past 2-3 years also. There are some pitchers that don't start pitching like they are capable of, until they reach 27-29( Jaime Moyer for one). Being that he has a sub 4 ERA this season, even given the game he gave up 11 runs, that it's a pretty good indication he will probably be under 4 the rest of the year. Although maybe he'll fall off and get rocked. But that could happen to anyone.

I also think it's funny when evaluating Buehrle people said you had to throw out the no hitter, because it's not the norm, but now people are saying you have to leave in the 11 run game for Garland. I agree you have to count it, but it definitely isn't the norm. He's a very good #2 guy, who will give you 200 innings a year, and so far hasn't been hurt in his career. Oh and he's only 27 and is under contract very cheap given the market for next season.

After all that, I hope the Sox don't trade him, and give him an extension. I would love to see them build a team around Garland and Buehrle and Danks. That could possibly be a great rotation.

[Aduncaroo]

ok, I swear I'm ready to leave it alone now....had to get that in because I just looked back and saw you tell me what I was saying was "wishful speculation"....so I'm done now.

[darkstar1661]

Hehehe, ok Adun…

Did you seriously just try to tell me that he is so much better than league average (at his park) and that he’s an obvious “easy #2” because he was -0.02, +0.03, -0.03 and 0.15 off of *lgERA in those 4/5 years I pointed out? That is about -1 ER, +1 ER, -1 ER and -3 ER respectively, or about -4 total ER off the *lgERA over a 4 year span. I don’t see how -1 ER off the League Average for the park means “easily #2”, but whatever…

And did you seriously tell me that he’s obviously more of a 3.5 than 4.5 pitcher this year because this year he has so far been 0.07 closer on the 3.5 side? That’s about +1ER to his current stats and we see it swing into the “closer to 4.5” camp just the same… so huh?

Did you seriously just tell me that I have a problem hyping prospects because I WOULD trade Escobar for Garland? Or does it go back to me thinking the Braves should get a lot more than Sean Marshall and Matt Murton for Salty? Again though, its “Escobar + a couple other top guys + his high dollar cost” (which the Braves cant afford to pay) which is why I’m telling you it doesn’t make sense, it has NOTHING to do with me over-hyping prospects though so not sure where you get that either…

Did you seriously just tell me that he cant be pitching badly because he has won more games the last couple years than other guys? Again, you said this year he had a 3.19 ERA going into his last start and is getting about 4.10 runs of support a game ~ his record is in turn 6-11. He really seems to be finding ways to lose this year... Last year he had 5+ Runs scored for him 20 times, meaning he didn’t have to do anything more than give up 5 or fewer runs to get a win, or atleast escape the loss, in 20 starts… he ended up getting 18W despite a rather mediocre 4.89ERA ~ sorry, but that isn’t him doing anything special!

Did you seriously just tell me I shouldn’t think about his first couple years, when I’m not even thinking about his first couple years? I took years 3-7 for my numbers ~ that’s after his first two... Sure, maybe he just learned something new after 6yrs in the league, but why didn’t it show itself last year too then? If he learned something new then you would expect his numbers to just continue to increase as he perfected it, but he couldn’t duplicate it last year and this year is still an unknown as to the outcome…

But really, what do you even want from me??? I said I would make your trade for the player you proposed, but that other factors means it isn’t a smart one for the Braves… I said that I don’t agree with your “easily a 2” thing, and I gave you ample reasons as to why ~ ie his actual numbers! Oh, I also provided some information showing that he would be a 4 (or 3 at most) if going to many of the contending teams… You just really want me to say he’s this “easy #2” when I just cant see anything to say he is? Sorry, but I really cant…

I did say “wishful speculation”, and when I said it ~ I explained it! If he’s generally about *lgERA in his current park then it would only stand to reason he would be about *lgERA in his new park. Thinking he should “easily be 3.5 or less in Atl” just doesn’t have anything which can be pointed to as a strong possibility other than you just think it to be the case… Sure, his current ERA would be lower if he had posted his current numbers in Atl ~ but he didn’t! Since the odds of his current ERA averaging out to what his near perfect 4.5 track record suggests would be a safe bet, then banking on him ending 2007 with and ERA of around *lgERA would be logical. You say it isn’t because he was different in 05, but that’s all you really have here so… Like I said, that kind of just adds up to “wishful speculation” to me. And honestly, I could care less either way ~ I hope he does drop his ERA to under 3 for the rest of his career and proves his consistent track record wrong for a team like the Braves, but I cant help but thinking that its probably not going to happen (much like PECOTA and other projection sites…)

So I will never say he is anything more than a 4.5 guy until he shows he is more than a 4.5 guy in something other than a “complete team, fluke season”! I cant say he is anything more than League Average until he puts up an ERA better than League Average (again outside of that one season)... I cant say he’s worth more than his dollar amount until he really produces more than similar guys making similar money… I cant say he fits with the Braves well because they don’t have the money for him… I cant say he is worth much more than just Escobar to them for the same reason… I cant say that Smoltz/Hudson/Garland is one of the best 1-3s when the team has an arguably better one already… I don’t know, there are probably a couple more things I cant say but I cant think of them right now so just please get the idea behind this.

If you can reply showing me how his career trends and numbers easily translate into this #2 you claim, or give me a list of like 15 teams where he is easily (meaning not just arguably) better than their current #2 then please do! As it stands though, I just see him slatted into mainly 3-4 slots on good teams only further adding to the “3-4 type” I keep saying. I would love to hear a real argument for it to be the case, the “I think” thing just doesn’t cut it though and since his most recent complete year is exactly what I keep calling him then I really don’t know what else to say…

[darkstar1661]

And Rype,

“Those sure look like League averages, not adjusted ERA's”
~ (it was…)

“I think if he moved to Turner Field, his ERA would be pretty close to 4.00 and possibly below it”
~ (if he continues at *lgERA then it would be about 4.20 per his previous seasons. His up-to-date 07 ERA would be lower than 4.0 IF he had done it in Atl, but he didn’t…)
~ (oh, and *lgERA means “league average ERA for pitchers factored for the park we are talking about. Garland putting up a 4.58 vs the *lgERA of 4.60 means that the average pitcher would have had an ERA of 4.60 in Chi where Garland posted his 4.58 ~ and that 0.02 difference is about 1ER over the entire 200+ IP)

“I don't know how a 3.1 ERA isn't giving enough for your team to win.”
~ (don’t know either! The team has scored a run higher than that for him though so he’s found a good way to get around that and compile a 6-11 record…)

“Yeah last year he had some run support, but in 05 he looked pretty good”
~ (05 he did look good, like all the other Sox pitchers playing over their head… last years 5.66 was a little more than “some run support” though :p )

“I agree you can look at all of his numbers, but being 27, I think you also have to take into account what he has done the past 2-3 years also.”
~ (I did, last year 4.89…)

“I also think it's funny when evaluating Buehrle people said you had to throw out the no hitter, because it's not the norm”
~ (I never said that, nor would I because it’s the most insane thing I have ever heard. Almost everything averages itself out; he probably gave up 5 more hits than he would have in a different game to get it on track. Hence why I say Garland will probably see this years 4ishERA be closer to 4.5ish, as that is what he has continually showed us he provides)

“He's a very good #2 guy, who will give you 200 innings a year, and so far hasn't been hurt in his career.”
~ (why a #2, just because he gives you 200IP and hasn’t been hurt? Nice, but something more than LgAvg in the actual numbers is needed for me to say that :p )

Oh and he's only 27 and is under contract very cheap given the market for next season.
~ (well, he’s making more then Mench who is actually pitching better ~ in that same league, and even division, with about the same run support :p )

“After all that, I hope the Sox don't trade him, and give him an extension”
~ (agree with that completely, he is easily the Sox #2 ~ it just doesn’t mean he is a real #2 to other teams… I was saying in another thread yest that they really should keep him and Mark if they are worried about the future and trade everyone else ASAP)

[Aduncaroo]

All i have to say is this:

If you truly believe that being that his era the past two and a half years is

3.50 ~ 2005 /// 4.45 *lgERA
4.51 ~ 2006 /// 4.66 *lgERA
3.92 ~ 2007 /// 4.53 *lgERA

and you think that moving from US Cellular, one of the best hitters parks in baseball, to one of the best pitchers parks in baseball is not going to give him an era less than 4???? Look again buddy...

and stop saying league average! he has been league average once of the years he posted. once. Some were very close, but the last two or three years is what you need to be giving more credit to than what he was doing when he was 22 or 23 years old.

Kind of like you saying Derrek Lee is a .270 or .280 hitter huh? 05 was a fluke for him too, huh? He is hitting .330....so like I have been saying...what a player has done lately is what you need to be looking at...not what a player does when they are 23 years old or at the beginning of their careers. Garland in Atlanta = below 4 era....bottom line. His era in US CELLULAR RIGHT NOW is below 4....so you need to answer this. You believe that his era would actually go UP???? Before anything else...answer that, because you keep dodging it.

Are you saying that his era, which is 3.9 ish right now at a major hitters park, will go UP to 4.2 when moving to a major pitchers park???

Man...I guess if he goes to Washington or Petco he would be in big trouble then....

[Aduncaroo]

and stop bringing up wins. if you are going to say he is finding ways to lose because he is 6-11....then I guess he was the best pitcher in the majors the last 3 years because he has more wins than anyone. So I guess he was finding more ways to win than anyone....which I guess would make him better than everyone.

We both know thats stupid. Wins aren't a great stat. All they prove is that if a pitcher has 18 or more...that they are giving their team a great chance to win nearly every time out. Not much else, and you certainly can't fault a guy with an era under 4 at that park and say he is "finding ways to lose." ANYONE would be happy with their pitchers allowing less than 4 runs per 9 innings there. The problem is their offense has been near the worst or the worst in all of baseball. Garland has not been the problem....at all.

05 is NOT all I have to say...the freaking present is what I have to say. His era is under 4 RIGHT NOW...and you think it will go up to 4.2 going to a pitchers park....thats just dumb.

[Aduncaroo]

"Again though, its “Escobar + a couple other top guys + his high dollar cost” "

I was NEVER talking about this....all I was saying is that Garland > Escobar as far as wins for the Braves go for the next two years...and that they should do the trade. I think that adding guys to that scenario would be questionable...

[darkstar1661]

Ok first, in reply to:
"Again though, its “Escobar + a couple other top guys + his high dollar cost” ~ by me
“I was NEVER talking about this....all I was saying is that Garland > Escobar as far as wins for the Braves go for the next two years...” ~ you just said

what about all these:
(((“But if I'm the braves...I try and get Garland for a package that starts with Escobar and ends with anyone not having the longest last name in the majors....of the prospects.”)))

((( “Thats the kind of rotation dreams are made of...so I would give up Escobar and more for Garland any day. He has another year after this one as well...”)))

(((“Ask most Braves fans if they would rather have Garland or Escobar...along with the "cost", and I think most would take Garland....”
“I understand what you are saying, I just think that its totally worth the "cost"...but maybe I value Garland more than you do.” )))

(((“12 mil for what Garland could do in the NL is well, well worth Escobar...probably more“)))

If all you were talking about was “Garland = more wins to Braves this year over Escobar” then why have we had any of this conversation? That’s why I keep asking what you even want from me, but from the contradicting statements it seems you too may not know…

Oh, and secondly…
…just like Derrek Lee will continue to hit 35+HR huh? Sure, he increased his BA but his SLG has been downright non-existent, and is exactly what I was saying in that other thread!

Now that we got those erroneous statements out of the way though, lets get back to what we were really talking about for some unknown reason…

“and stop saying league average! he has been league average once of the years he posted. once. Some were very close, but the last two or three years is what you need to be giving more credit to”

Uhh, but he has been league average 4 times in the last 5 complete years! If League-Average pitcher gives up 118.6ER in 217IP under the conditions you played, and you give up 118ER in 217IP, you are league average!

And do you really want to look only at the last 2-3 years instead? Well, in 2 of the last 3 complete years he has been League Average… Does that make you feel better?

Want to think about actual league average for the AL without the park factors for a few minutes too?
2006 4.56 AL, 4.51 Garland (-0.05)
2005 4.35 AL, 3.50 Garland (-0.85)
2004 4.63 AL, 4.89 Garland (+0.26)
2003 4.52 AL, 4.51 Garland (-0.01)
2002 4.46 AL, 4.58 Garland (+0.12)
5yr total: 4.50 AL, 4.40 Garland (-0.10) ~ even with the dramatically different 05 season!
3yr total: 4.51 AL, 4.30 Garland (-0.19) ~ again, with the 05 season!

But want to think about THIS YEAR? This year he has a 3.92 ERA right? Well, that is good enough for 44th in baseball. Oh, and since there are 93 Qualifying pitchers, he is officially at 47.3% ~ rather close to the center huh…
Want AL only? Well, 3.92 is good for 21st ~ out of 42! Dead center there…
Seems if it ended today, his 2007 would be pretty much middle of the pact ERA wise among qualifying starters …

How is he so much more than a #3-4 again? How is he so much more than league average? Please, since most of your argument is based off the fact that he’s “easily a #2”, then explain how he is “easily a #2”, or even much better than league average really! But that’s right, you think the park makes such a huge difference on his ERA right? Well, from 2005 to now the AL Average ERA is -0.10 off the Chi-*lgERA. So his 4.5+ ERAs turn to about 4.4+ERAs and the end result is not much of a difference in his rankings at all…

And I’ve never dodged a thing, I have continually told you that his ERA would probably be “about their *lgERA” in ATL if he went there! Why ~ because I have continually said he is pitching better now than he should! How is that so hard to comprehend? And why do I keep saying he is pitching better than he should be ~ because I am not just saying “I think” but rather looking at trends and numbers… If he went to ATL right now and pitched LgAvg he would end up in the 4.2 range for the rest of the season, if he pitched exactly like he currently is he would be in the 3.6-3.7 range for the remainder ~ Atl afterall drops the *lgERA about 20-30pts. I understand completely, I have answered every time you have asked these stupid questions and I have explained everything I have said to the utmost fullest! You are banking on the fact that he stays the same as he currently is, I say we will probably see him falling back more to his normal ~ what is the problem?

“and stop bringing up wins…”
Then you do the same!!! Saying “he leads the league in W the last three years” every other post is not dropping it ~ its continuing to talk about it! Remember, the whole wins talk started with you saying this:
“Comparisons aren't always that great of a measure. Either are wins, which is why I didn't bring up that he leads the majors in wins the last three years...”

Oh and incase you don’t understand that… Bringing it up while saying “I didn’t bring it up”, IS BRINGING IT UP! Its like 2 people not talking to eachother when one walks up and tells the other “I’m not talking to you” ~ uh, yes they are! Otherwise they wouldn’t have said anything…

Now again I have to ask, WTF are you even saying? What is your point? Just to get me to agree to something I’ve said multiple times? (in reference to Garland > Escobar this year if there were no other factors involved). Saying that doesn’t mean it would be a smart trade for the Braves to make though (because of the “Escobar + a couple other top guys + his high dollar cost” thing), so the trade still doesn’t make sense!

And if that isn’t what you are saying, then what is it? I keep asking you over and over again to give me something resembling a point and all I get is erroneous statements and runaround arguments about different topics. Just tell me what you want from me!!!

[Aduncaroo]

Are you saying that his era, which is 3.9 ish right now at a major hitters park, will go UP to 4.2 when moving to a major pitchers park???

Still funny to me how you couldn't just say "yes, I believe this." but you won't....cause that would sound pretty damn stupid.

By the way...You argued over and over again that Lee was a .270 to .280 hitter or something like that...and he is hitting .330....forget slg....you still won't admit that sometimes a simple adjustment can make all the difference in the world. His wrist is affecting his power...but he is still a great player.

Again...you think Garland is going to have around a 5 era the rest of the year in order to meet league average. Oh...and that era in the AL in one of the best hitters parks is better than "middle of the pack"

[darkstar1661]

I said Garland should end up closer to his average of about *lgERA by the end of the year, yes. If he stays in Chi then I think he will provide an ERA of 4.5 or higher the rest of the way; if he’s traded to Atl then I would think he would provide an ERA in the 4.2+ range for the rest of the season. I also think its likely to be higher then *lgERA a little bit to make up for his currently being under, but I wont say that for sure. I say think because that is what it will take to get closer to his normals ~ I don’t say think as a wishful thing though…

Know what it would take to get his ERA closer to that *lgERA though? Well, one 1.2IP/6R outing would get it up there pretty fast, but that’s not even needed… So far his Home/Road splits are kinda out of wack to like a 1.5R difference (from what I remember, on phone and not going to look it up so some numbers might be slightly off) ~ maybe this roadtrip will provide something, don’t they visit Boston and Cleveland? Say he goes about 6, giving up 5 in an outing vs each ~ I think his ERA would then be in the 4.3 range. Its not as hard to raise an ERA as you seem to think! Lots of ball left too…

So yes, it is not as unfathomable as you think for him to post *lgERA the rest of the way, and it wouldn’t take as much over that as you make it seem…

Also, yes ~ he is at the middle of the pack right now! His 3.9ish ERA is hurt at that park by only about 0.10, remember? Well, if you take that 0.10 off his current ERA it will gain him maybe a position or two in the rankings (again, not looking up) ~ so in the AL he might be 19/42 instead of 21/42 ~ and its still right around the middle!

Now, Re:Lee
Well, I remember how he was a 1st half hitter the last few years ~ & I know, not for his career because you hollered, telling me that I was stupid for saying that… If I remember correctly, didn’t he have something nuts like a .70pt swing in BA over those couple years from the 1st to 2nd half? Well, if he keeps that pattern up and we say I am remembering it wrong and maybe its about .50pt swing then we are left with, drumroll… 280! I think I said he would be in the 280/375/500 range (not sure though)… Well, if he has that 2nd half drop in BA and OBP and continues to hit with about the same amount of power, then we should probably expect something in that range right? Oh but thats right, you don’t think he will have the 2nd half drop do you? Guess we’ll see soon enough…

But I’m going no further on that because its foolish to say 1/2 a seasons stats show a full-seasons predictions are wrong. On Lee I distinctly remember saying he is a 1st half type ~ you cant say anything about my ‘season’ predictions until the season is actually through then can you? I know you’ll try… but it wont mean anything!

[rype123]

I'm not going to try to change your mind, I'm just throwing out numbers here. There are 14 teams in the AL, and you are saying he's ranked 21'st in era. in the AL with 14 teams there are 70 starting pitchers, if you go for a #2 pitcher, you would be in the top 28. 21 would be in the top 28, which would make him a #2 no? With 30 teams, the top 2 would be in the top 60 pitchers, he is 44. Once again, using that logic, you could say he's a #2. The fun thing with stats, is even if you use real stats, you can still manipulate them to prove your point.

[Aduncaroo]

You know what Dark? I can respect your opinion enough to just say...lets find out about Lee. His power is messed up because of the wrist...even you have to admit that this is crazy that he has only hit 6 homers. You even said he would hit many more than 12. Still, I said he could hit .300 again and you acted like I was stupid for saying that. I think that he has proven that he is a .300 hitter...but you don't have to agree with me...

As far as Garland...

You can say all it takes is a bad outing or two to get his era inflated....thats the case with everyone!!! That hardly makes your point, I'm sorry.

And Lee is known around baseball as a slow starter until 05...so given that...he should be hitting plenty well.

Oh..and don't even get started about the Ramirez vs. Rolen thing...that could be very fun to get into right about now. Would you still rather have Rolen? Sorry, but I just gotta ask...

[insomniac]

One thing I would love to see is the Braves try and acquired Kei Igawa from New York and get them to eat as much of his contract as possible.

He has the potential to be solid and would go for peanuts. Maybe he could sort out his problems with the limelight off of him.

Garland...everyone is underrating as he pitched in a launching pad in Chicago. But still arm problems would keep me from suggesting to go out and get him, I would rather not acquire a young Hampton.

Oswalt would cost way too much and there is questions of his dedication to the game.

Why did this convo move to the Cubs?

[Aduncaroo]

the cubs thing is just a side note with Dark and myself...don't even worry about it. Garland is the focus of the post....

Arm trouble does scare me, but isn't it a little, or a lot much to say he is a young Hampton? There are pitchers with far more arm trouble than Garland....

[darkstar1661]

Adun,

Not to sound rude, but did you understand what I said? I said that you really couldn’t pass judgment on my prediction of Lee because he hasn’t played the whole season. That being the case I would hope you could respect my saying “we don’t know yet”…

So since you’ve brought it up now anyway I will again explain why I say he should be closer to his normal lines come Oct. Like I said, in 2004 and 2005 he saw huge drops in his numbers after the break. In 04 his line went from .304/.375/.516 to .249/.334/.491 (difference of about -55/-40/-25). In 2005 he saw an even worse plummet in the second half, watching his numbers fall from .378/.452/.733 to .287/.380/.581 (difference of -90/-72/-152). He spent most of last year on the DL so its impossible to get a gage; but his current 330/411/479 line should expect a similar normal drop.

I realize that he used to be a slow starter, but that hasn’t been the case for a good while now, and it took a dramatic change (instead of just a minor difference) the last two full years he played. You said he had changed his approach or something like that, and that change apparently produces these “strong numbers out the gate” like you said (or something similar atleast) ~ that same change to approach you claim though, seems to have him just fall off completely in the 2nd half… The end results in 04 averaged out to his normal, what little we had to go off of in 06 shows he hit his normal and 2005 still remains the only blip on his near perfect 280/370/500ish track record. Ironically, split the 2005 season in half and you have his normal in his post AS numbers, so really its been 6.5 of 7 years where he has been a 280/370/500ish hitter…

Now, it would really take a near identical 2004 line to produce what I said he should be at as an end result (ie 250/330/490 the rest of the way) and I do think that’s a little low, so he will probably be a little bit over his 280/370/500ish normal. I wouldn’t however be surprised to see him hit 260-70/350-60/500 the rest of the way at all…

Lastly on Lee, despite his lack of HR, his Dbl rate is actually higher than it probably should be. Although I wont say it isnt the injury still bothering him like you claim, his HRs seem like they are just be falling a tad short of their goal.

Now back to the actual topic:
“You can say all it takes is a bad outing or two to get his era inflated....thats the case with everyone!!! That hardly makes your point, I'm sorry”

uhh, huh? My point was I see him pitching closer to or above his normal *lgERA the rest of the year. You asked how I could say that could happen and I told you how it could happen… Seeing as the point was to say how it could happen, the point was made…

So again, you said
“you think Garland is going to have around a 5 era the rest of the year in order to meet league average”
I said
“Its not as hard to raise an ERA as you seem to think! Lots of ball left too…”
Get it?

Now I think I have explained everything once again, correct? I think all my positions should be clear, and the reasons why I have them have been detailed to the max in my eyes. You should understand why I think Garland is a 3-4, you should understand why Escobar+more+12m isn’t a smart move for the Braves and I’ve even now explained the whole Lee prediction thing once again for you. That’s it right?

[darkstar1661]

Rype,

That would be the case if all starters actually qualified. As it stands though, about half of them fall short for one reason or another and we are left with only a portion actually being eligible. It does show that Garland has pitched enough innings to qualify which is a good thing, but it also shows that out of all the ones who did qualify that he ends up right in the middle…

As far as qualifying starters, he is right smack dab in the middle ~ meaning about league average among qualifying starters ~ even with his current lower than career average ERA. He also has some of his most difficult challenges ahead and there is half a year to play still…

[darkstar1661]

And Insomniac,
“Garland...everyone is underrating as he pitched in a launching pad in Chicago”
Everyone keeps saying this “launching pad” thing, but it really only means maybe about a 0.10 swing in ERA ~ which is kind of peanuts. It really would have been the difference in giving up about 104ER last year instead of his 106ER. Do you think 2ER over 211IP is that big of a deal, because I sure don’t…

Besides, I have been using *lgERA vs his ERA… Again, *lgERA is what the Average pitcher would have put up if playing in the situations that Garland played in. His ERA matches near perfect with the *lgERA ~ and that says that he pitches very League Average. Launching pad or no, we’ve leveled the playing field with *lgERA and you cant escape his ERA being equal to *lgERA most of the time…

(((and before someone else says “but it isn’t right now” ~ again, lets wait till the end of the season before we say 2007 was a complete success and signs of how great he was)))

[Aduncaroo]

Your point on Lee = You want to wait and see...

Your point on Garland = You want to wait and see...

Sounds like you don't like the fact that both players are proving you wrong this year...so you just say "lets wait and see" or something about there being a lot of ball to play.

So yeah, I get your point quite clearly.

Oh, seriously, I don't want to get into it yet...but just say yes or no. Would you still rather have Rolen than Ramirez? Either way...I'll leave it at that...I'm just very curious.

[darkstar1661]

(“Sounds like you don't like the fact that both players are proving you wrong this year...so you just say "lets wait and see" or something about there being a lot of ball to play.”)

That is one of the single dumbest things I have ever heard a person say, and I really, really mean it…

“Season projections” do not equal “we can say they are wrong after knowing 1/2 the story”. Do they play 1/2 seasons or full seasons??? Someone says “they will hit 280 in 2007” doesn’t mean you call them wrong because they didn’t do it by the break! How does that not make sense to you??? If I say I will wash the car today, do you get to tell me “you didn’t wash the car” at noon?

But since it seems to have to be laid out in the most simplest of terms for you to understand:
Lee should hit about 280/370/500 when we look at his final numbers!
Garland should be around 4.5+ or Chi*lgERA when we look at his final numbers!
That is what I have said over and over again… Sure, Lee will probably be a little bit above it as I don’t see him hitting 250/330/500 the rest of the way ~ but it is very possible just the same and we have no clue until it finishes! Garland will probably be right around there when all is said and done though as I don’t think it is unfathomable at all for him to pitch at a 4.90-5.00 mark the rest of the year with some tough road games ahead. Oh, well I guess technically they could get hurt and miss the second half, but at that point it would be “we will never know” not “you were wrong”…

And, no ~ no one is proving me wrong at all!!! Since we don’t know what the actual “final numbers” are, and I made predictions off “final numbers” ~ not “numbers at the break” ~ then you can not say I was wrong at all!

If anything, in their most recent performances I would actually say they are proving me right!!! What did Garland do in his last start again? What is Lee hitting this month? Sure, you can pick and choose whatever stats you like and point to them as if it somehow tells a different story, but “as a whole” will always mean “as a whole” and you will always just look like an ass if you argue against it…

So again, to make it perfectly clear to you since you dont understand otherwise:
Lee should have a 2nd half consistent to his 2004 and 2005 where his numbers plummet. He is currently hitting .208/.367/.208 in 7 games this month, showing that his 2nd half thing has probably already started. Does it mean it will happen? Nope, but based off his normal it probably will!

Garland should have a 2nd half more along the lines of the numbers he has put up in his career outside of 1 year. He currently is about -0.50 off his normal, but those 6ER or so can easily be made up in the second half to even it out. Does it mean it will happen? Nope, but based off his most recent start it looks like it is already happening! Averages aren’t taken selectively afterall…

Understand, or should I explain further that 1/2 the season does not equal “his complete season”?

But why are we still having this conversation? Everything I said is based off actual trends, numbers and tendencies which you have had me explain over and over and over again… Its not like I am just making up some random thing I want to believe, and everything I have said has stayed exactly the same the entire time ~ so what do you want? You want me to say “I’m wrong about Lees complete-season 2007 numbers” right now? That doesn’t make sense… Do you want me to say Lee doesn’t have horrible pre/post break splits in 04 well I cant say that either because that wouldn’t be true... Do you want me to say that Garland hasn’t pitched at a 4.5+ and *lgERA for almost his entire career; again I cant because he has! Do you want me to just say “oh yeah, youre right because I said as a whole, but since 1/2 the story says otherwise I am obviously no good at this”? That would be stupid… So WHAT DO YOU WANT???

As far as Rolen vs Ramirez…
Wasn’t most of my point on it that “Rolen might not have as flashy of numbers, but his end result will be about as good”? For as bad as Rolen has been, he actually has the same amount of Runs! For as bad as Rolen has been, he actually has a respectable number of RBI to this point and could outpace Ramirez by 10 the rest of the way ~ there is nothing to say he wont... For as bad as Rolen has been, he has actually put up a very similar OBP... Has Ramirez been better? Sure, but to this point the actual value to the team isn’t as much as one would think!!! Oh, and Ramirez has also had the injury I said he would probably have even though you insisted that he would easily have so many more Gs and ABs than Rolen… Will it continue, who knows ~ but Gs played is one of the few things were it does have a bit more meaning at the break. We afterall know that Rolen wont play 70G less than Ramirez when all is said and done...

Oh, and BTW ~ notice the swing this month? Rolen is at .310/.371/.414 5R, 8RBI in July; ARam is at .357/.367/.464 2R, 6RBI. Things start to change as the season actually takes place ~ and although his numbers still aren’t as flashy in the BA & SLG areas, Rolen has actually been much more valuable to his team with his 13 R+RBI to ARam at 8 R+RBI. Will it continue? Well, we don’t know for sure ~ but it can happen rather easily and because of that we cant call a “whole season prediction” wrong at the break…

[Aduncaroo]

You think what I said is dumb?

"If I say I will wash the car today, do you get to tell me “you didn’t wash the car” at noon?"

That takes the cake buddy...plain and simple.

Go back and look at something for me, will you?

"Sounds like you don't like the fact that both players are proving you wrong this year."

ing = present

This means that they are CURRENTLY proving you wrong. I never said that they did and we can call it quits. ING at the end of a word means that its what they are currently doING...so all that we know about the year so far is....they are provING you wrong.

Garland may or may not keep it up...we don't know. I told you I can respect your opinion...but I can't respect you saying that while his era is under 4 right now...if he pitched in Atlanta it would increase to 4.2...sorry, just doesn't cut it to me. You can write a book about why you believe what you belive, but thats never going to make any sense.

Rolen < Ramirez....EVERYONE would say it. I asked you for a yes or a no. Would you still rather have Rolen than Ramirez?

[darkstar1661]

Yes, it is stupid ~ plain and simple stupid!

Here, since apparently I even have to explain to you what you say, let me show you what it breaks down to:
“wait and see, wait and see; it sounds like you just don’t like the fact that they are proving you wrong and they really are better then you say they are” ~ sound about right? (Well it should, that’s what your saying… If you disagree then you will have to read all of this first to understand I guess…)

But anyway; hello??? See, the seasons not over so we don’t have a level to say how good they are do we??? We can say how good they have been to this point, but “to this point” (or “how good they are in 1/2 a season”) has never been the conversation at all and instead it has always been “on the seasons total”… So then, how are they proving me wrong, how are they showing they are so much better than what I say their numbers will be since there is still so much of the season left??? Just because they haven’t hit those marks yet???? “Proving” or “Proved”, doesn’t matter, the fact that you are repeating over and over again things like “wait and see isn’t a real answer” means the season must be as good as over as far as you’re concerned regarding the talent evaluation… Again, since the entire conversation is about what the end result is, yet you are asking for an end result answer right now while not accepting that we need to wait till the end of the event to get an end result, you are saying “answer the end result question now and don’t give me wait and see!”

But here, this is how your sentences break down piece by piece since I doubt you will be able to follow what I just typed:

“Your point on Lee = You want to wait and see...”
~ (sense there is lots of season left, this is my answer as to why he has yet to put up the numbers I say he will; with ample reasons and ways having been supplied)

“Your point on Garland = You want to wait and see...”
~ (sense there is lots of season left, this is my answer as to why he has yet to put up the numbers I say he will; with ample reasons and ways having been supplied)

“Sounds like you don't like the fact that both players are proving you wrong this year...”
~ (implies that they are better than I say they are because of the 1/2 season they have played)

“so you just say "lets wait and see" or something about there being a lot of ball to play.”
~ (says “wait and see” isn’t really an acceptable answer as to why they haven’t put up the numbers I said they will and because of that 1/2 season they are obviously better than what I say)

“So yeah, I get your point quite clearly.”
~ (implies you really don’t even see a point to the rest of the season and that the current numbers must mean exactly what you imply they are ~ what their real talent level is or whatever…)

And again, how can I say the “implies you don’t even see a point to the rest of the season…” part? Well, the context of the conversation we were having when you made the statement… The entire conversation has been me saying over and over again “they will do their normal on the season as a whole” and you saying over and over again “how will they do their normal when they are doing better now”... Since when I answer your “how are they not better than what you say” question just to hear “wait and see isn’t an answer, you just don’t like the fact they are proving you wrong” it says that “wait and see” isn’t an answer but one is still needed RIGHT NOW on a conversation regarding the end of the season.

Get it yet?
Probably not, let me detail it again so I don’t have to have a conversation on this for the next 3 days as well…

~ I keep saying “they will be A”
~ You keep saying “how can you say they will be A when they are doing “B”
~ I keep responding to that with details as to why I say “they will be A”
~ You then reply again with “but how can you say they will be “A” when they are doing “B”
that goes on for days
~ I pretty much say “just wait and see”
~ You say “but that’s not an answer”
this goes back and forth till
~ You say “sounds like you don’t like the fact they are proving you wrong”

See where the problem is? Seasons not over, is it? So how are they proving me wrong when my whole argument is the fact that it takes a whole season to know? Since the conversation is about an end result you can’t seem to understand, saying you don’t accept “wait and see” says nothing more than “that’s not good enough, how are they A at the end of the season when they are currently doing B”…

Get it yet? Man I hope so…

And BTW, you do realize they are actually proving me right don’t you? If you take the most recent performance by both players you will see that they are playing towards what I keep saying they are… Garland had the horrible outing to bring his ERA closer to what I say it should be, Lee might have well of been sitting on the bench in Chi with the way he’s hit this month helping bring his average to what I say. Get it? They are actually proving me right ~ not wrong ~ when they start to take over-inflated and bring them back to their normals…

[darkstar1661]

Oh, and regarding this amazingly stupid statement:
“I told you I can respect your opinion...but I can't respect you saying that while his era is under 4 right now...if he pitched in Atlanta it would increase to 4.2...sorry, just doesn't cut it to me.”

Ok, so you respect the fact that I say he should be *lgERA the rest of the way, but cant respect the fact that I say he will be *lgERA the rest of the way? See the problem there? Well, maybe not so let me explain that to you yet again as well…

*lgERA = League Average ERA under the teams conditions. Me saying “He will play *lgERA in Chi” and you respecting it means its ok for me to say. Well, *lgERA in ATL is 4.2, get it? So how is it so hard for you to fathom him playing *lgERA in Atl when its fine in Chi? *lgERA is *lgERA ~ nothing changes on it. Its factored for the park, so you cant say “well, its ok for him to be *lgERA in Chi but not in Atl because Chi is a launching pad and Atl isn’t”. Get it? Park Factor is taken into consideration in *lgERA... Get it?

See, if its cool for him to play *lgERA in Chi it HAS to be cool for him to play *lgERA in Atl. Understand? So you either repect the fact that I say he will pitch to *lgERA or you don’t, but you cant make a sentence saying “I respect he could be *lgERA, but I cant respect he could be *lgERA”… Get it?

[Aduncaroo]

"And BTW, you do realize they are actually proving me right don’t you? If you take the most recent performance by both players you will see that they are playing towards what I keep saying they are"

Stupidest thing ever...we have a new winner.

You tell me you have to go by a full season, not half, then you sit there and give me a one start example for a pitcher????? Man, you can't have it both ways....thats just pathetic

"“So yeah, I get your point quite clearly.”
~ (implies you really don’t even see a point to the rest of the season and that the current numbers must mean exactly what you imply they are ~ what their real talent level is or whatever…)"

How does it imply that??? I said I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING....I FREAKIN GET IT. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT??? Or, I can type it about 8 more times....

All I am saying is that you say

They will be A

They are doing B

And you are just saying...yeah...but lets wait...they will still do A. In fact, they will do worse than A so they can get back to A.

That is what you are saying. I disagree with it...but still, its the argument that you are making. I'm sorry that I feel like what they have done for half the season is a reflection on what they will do for the whole season. You can think otherwise, thats fine. I am not saying that they might not do worse than they have so far...but I think it will be closer to my suggestions than what you are calling "A". Can you not just say, ok, I understand and we just disagree?

Oh...by the way...lets do as you suggest. At the time that I am typing this...Garland's most recent start is NOT what you are saying. His most recent start is TONIGHT.

Lets see how he did....

7IP, 3ER....

Wow...looks like he is in fact proving ME right. His ERA is down from where it was yesterday...so I guess since we are looking at one game trends now all of the sudden...he just proved me right. Thanks and good night.

[Aduncaroo]

Sorry....7IP...2ER., not 3

[darkstar1661]

Oh my god, you’ve got to be kidding me…

“You tell me you have to go by a full season, not half, then you sit there and give me a one start example for a pitcher????? Man, you can't have it both ways....thats just pathetic”

Huh, hello? I’m telling you that if you want to break it down into the moments instead of focusing on the whole season like I have stated I wanted to focus on time and time again ~ then yes, they are playing more towards what I am saying!!! (to that moment I guess I have to say before you jump on that too)

Get it??? I want to talk “whole season”, that’s not good enough for you so you just keep going and going and going saying “how can you say that when they are doing different now”… I explain it and hear “how can you say that when they are doing different now”… I explain it and hear “how can you say that when they are doing different now…
So OK, you want to talk about NOW? Well “NOW” (ie when I typed it) Garland had indeed watched an ERA go from “lower than it should be” to “closer to what it should be”… Get it? You wanted to talk in the “RIGHT NOW” so I gave you the “RIGHT NOW”… Get it? Right Now = that moment! Get it? “end of the season = 2.5months from now… Get it? You want RIGHT NOW, I will give you RIGHT NOW ~ ie the current trend… Get it?

And now you will probably give me some stupid remark like “well right now the trend is that his ERA got an ever so tiny bit lower” ~ when I just don’t care!!! You do, I don’t! You say “what about now” ~ that’s not me asking for now! I have continually stressed that I am talking “whole season” and the “right now” means so little to me... Right now they could have a 2.0ERA and a .500BA for all I care; if they tank the rest of the way then it would mean very little… You asked for “now” a hundred times though, so I gave you “now”… Get it?

But what am I even doing replying to you, it’s worthless huh? It’s just going to draw it out longer and longer and longer. I start to read your posts and its like “we’ve been over this countless times… I find myself replying to the same things over and over again… You will just keep asking the same questions and looking for anything you can find that isn’t explained to the utmost fullest to jump on next huh?

So forget it, it’s over… I’m done, I just really didn’t care to begin with and its way past annoying… I tried to explain something, I heard “but what about now” and I don’t know what else to say… When I see you’ve posted on here all I can do is think to myself “oh geeze, I hope I don’t have to explain this again”… I have asked you like a hundred times what you want from me, I get the same runaround… It’s done ~ no more posts!!! I don’t care what you think of me, I don’t care if you think I’m wrong about anything without taking in the whole story, I don’t care if you think I’ve made a mistake, I don’t care if you want to explain statement C to really mean statement D when if you really meant D then you would have never said anything to begin with… I’m just done with you. I have this stupid feeling of needing to explain things to people if they don’t understand; well its obvious you will never understand so forget it. I should know better anyway, you just wont let anything go ~ ie, see the whole “but all I’m saying is it is just something the Braves should look into” with regards to the Salty for Sean Marshall trade you kept trying to force down peoples throats… I should’ve even known better before that anyway since I’ve been down this same road with you before... I know from the old posts that one player playing way off of his normal yearly averages means “dramatic change in him and he will always produce to that level”; well when we are talking about players you bring up atleast… Your own buddy kept telling you that you were nuts, he kept telling you that you just don’t get it and yet you still kept going… It was all over the fact that no one thinks that Escobar+more+12m is a good idea, you kept saying “well, I think they should think about it” and changing your stance until it got down to “are you saying Escobar is worth more wins than Garland” which couldn’t have been farther from the point! No one cares if Escobar is worth more wins, that’s not the topic and why would that have to be discussed? Just because you think it would be a good idea ~ great, no one cares! I’m not going to keep going though ~ I’m done!

I said what I said, I gave actual proof and trends to back it up, and if you don’t like it ~ oh well! Believe anything you like, you will anyway... Just really though, no more posts! Don’t reply! There is absolutely nothing more that needs to be said! I don’t care what you think, I don’t care if you respect trends and tendencies, I don’t care if you cant figure out when I’m giving you what you wanted, I don’t care about having to explain smart ass remarks which say things in relation to the context of a conversation that they were given regarding and I don’t care if you can’t figure out what *lgERA for Chi means in relation to *lgERA in Atl… It’s just done!

[Aduncaroo]

You still don't get that I understand everything you are saying...just don't agree with it!!! You can't handle the fact that your logic sucks to me.

Thats all I'll say...I think its pretty dumb at this point anyway.

But, I'm going to ask you for the 10th time...because you have dodged the answer about 9.

Would you still rather have Rolen than Ramirez? I just want a yes or no. If its yes, I won't say a thing, I just want to know and you keep avoiding it....

[Aduncaroo]

I do think its amusing how you can tell yourself that you can use a one game example as a "trend"...but when I do the EXACT same thing, its not valid and you act like I'm stupid for doing it. If you want to call it a trend...like I said, the trend is proving me right.

If you don't like "now"...and you don't, because its no longer convenient for you, than we can go for using the "whole season."

The fact is that all we know about this season is the numbers that the players put up so far. They are half of what the numbers will be at the end, so excuse me for using all that we have. The thing is, they are stats, they do count, and we don't know about the rest. You may be right, and they may end up where you say....but I don't believe it and you do. Thats fine...but you don't have to be an arrogant prick about it and act like I don't get your freakin point. I get it, just think its a pretty bad one. Some people can agree to disagree...you are having trouble with that.

Oh, and again, just for good measure...please answer the Rolen vs. Ramirez question with simply a yes or no.

Would you still rather have Rolen than Ramirez?

[darkstar1661]

(((OK, I typed this in Word, and with all the quotes it ended up extremely long so its going to be like 4 posts… Maybe after reading it you will understand that you in fact didn’t get it ~ but I doubt it and you will probably respond once again with some backwards contradicting statement… whatever)))

“....they are provING you wrong.”
~~~ See, this shows you didnt understand… I’ll again explain how you obviously didnt understand if you post things like that though:
Again, how are they “proving me wrong” if we don’t know what they will do tomorrow? Since 1/2 the year has yet to be played, they have only proved the have played differently than their normals for a half a season. Has Jack Cust “proven” or “is proving” or whatever that he is a 158 OPS+ guy because he did it for 1/2 the season too? He’s playing great, but nothing is “proven” (or however you want to say it) off 1/2 a season of a career… Garland is actually pitching under what I feel he probably should, and doing so mainly by posting a 3.0ERA on the road. But he also saw his ERA jump +.80 in the most recent noticeable trend, so he is getting there. See, the “trend” is “he was below the average he has set for himself and has so far taken numbers which were way below and brought it closer to it”. The “trend” isn’t “3.9+ERA” ~ its “low, and rising towards his average”. Is he proving me wrong by not yet being exactly where I said he will be at the end of the year? I don’t see how since there is so much season to play, but you don’t care and instead just want to say “he’s proving you wrong!” Lee on the other hand is doing exactly what I said he would do isn’t he? I had said he would have a good 1st half and bomb in the second. He’s not “proving me wrong” in having what I said he would, he’s proving me right by providing what I figured he would! Now, this month he is also doing the other thing I said would happen and he is watching him numbers go down… Get it? So no, you didn’t seem to understand it, otherwise you would have never said “proving you wrong” ~ but you did, cause it makes you feel smart maybe, you like to just say the same thing all the time maybe, who knows… But you sure didn’t post it because you understand anything, as you obviously don’t or you wouldn’t have posted it!

Oh, but that’s right… You replied to my “trend” statement with:
“I do think its amusing how you can tell yourself that you can use a one game example as a "trend"...but when I do the EXACT same thing, its not valid and you act like I'm stupid for doing it. If you want to call it a trend...like I said, the trend is proving me right.”
~~~ Ok, so let me get this straight… They play under their normals so you get to say “they are proving you wrong”, but when they present numbers which get their overall numbers headed in the direction that I say they should go and will eventually be I cant say anything about it because its one game or one week or whatever though, right? So if we have evidence that their numbers went from lower than average 3.19 ERA to a 3.92 ERA and higher than average .354 BA to a .330 BA, I am not allowed to say that their numbers are headed in the direction I have continually said they will go because it is such a short amount of time? The fact that the numbers took huge jumps towards what I said they should be is ignored because it was over a short period of time, and the fact that it was in the most recent performances that they gave still doesn’t show that they will be able to do what I say they will probably do? Are we to just believe that their number froze at their utmost peaks, or do numbers going from where I say they should be to more of what I say they should be in the last couple weeks actually show that they are infact headed to where I say they should be? Get it? They are headed to where they should be!

One start, 10 starts, doesn’t matter ~ the numbers are headed in the direction of their normals! I’m not saying “over half a season they were better”, I’m saying “that half of season being better is evaporating extremely quickly isn’t it?” Get it now? You wanted NOW, so I gave you NOW ~ NOW is when their numbers are making huge strides towards their average! And again, one game, one week, a series of 5 games that raised an ERA by +.80 ~ I don’t care ~ the fact is that Garlands accumulative ERA and Lees accumulative BA are headed in the direction I said they should be at an extremely rapid pace. Disagree or whatever you want, it doesn’t erase the fact that their accumulative ERAs and BAs are making huge steps in that direction. Call it “stupid” or “convenient” or whatever, the fact still remains that their numbers have gone +.80ERA and -25BA in an extremely short amount of time to bring them closer to the averages their career numbers have said they will end up in… Get it yet?

[darkstar1661]

“Are you saying that his era, which is 3.9 ish right now at a major hitters park, will go UP to 4.2 when moving to a major pitchers park???”
~~~ See, you didn’t understand this either did you? Yep, I know I watched like 5 posts saying “but how can you can his ERA will be higher in ATL”, and I explained it and explained it and explained it and get the same question/remark… Didn’t understand it either huh?

See, many posts ago you had said this:
“Still funny to me how you couldn't just say "yes, I believe this." but you won't....cause that would sound pretty damn stupid.”
~~~ and that was in the response directly following this sentence from me:
“I have continually told you that his ERA would probably be “about their *lgERA” in ATL if he went there! Why ~ because I have continually said he is pitching better now than he should! How is that so hard to comprehend?”
I’m sorry I didn’t say it in the exact words you wanted to apparently hear it, but I said it ~ and I said it a thousand times! If you understood why would you keep running around asking it then? Obviously you still didn’t understand though, because that portion of your confusion still didn’t end did it?
This was in the next response you gave:
“but I can't respect you saying that while his era is under 4 right now...if he pitched in Atlanta it would increase to 4.2...sorry”
Yep, didn’t understand it at all… And amazingly I had just said this as well:
“If he went to ATL right now and pitched LgAvg he would end up in the 4.2 range for the rest of the season, if he pitched exactly like he currently is he would be in the 3.6-3.7 range for the remainder ~ Atl afterall drops the *lgERA about 20-30pts.”

“Oh...and that era in the AL in one of the best hitters parks is better than "middle of the pack”
~~~ and see, you posted this “best hitters park” thing over and over and over and over again. Do you understand what it means? I told you what it means, do you actually understand it? No, you obviously don’t because if you did you probably wouldn’t still be posting the “best hitters park” part. AGAIN, CHI = +.10 ON AN ERA! That’s it, +.10. Playing under the conditions of Chi, the *lgERA is .10 over the actual LgAvg ERA the last 2.5yrs. Know what .10 equates to on a persons 215ish IP season? Oh about 3 runs…

[darkstar1661]

“You can say all it takes is a bad outing or two to get his era inflated....thats the case with everyone!!! That hardly makes your point, I'm sorry.”
~~~ See, I post saying that his ERA will rise, but you want the point proven… so I tell you how it can happen and you say “that could happen to anyone” so I say wait and see and you give me smartass remarks like that isn’t good enough… So I tell you about the current treand and that’s dismissed… Well, what do you want? Youre trying to make me “prove my point” (which shows you don’t understand that well to begin with in itself) on something that hasn’t happened yet! How can I show you results that have yet to take place ~ so how can I prove my point yet since my point is about the “end” not “middle” of the season?

And you didn’t understand why another person would mention Wins after you posted this:
“Either are wins, which is why I didn't bring up that he leads the majors in wins the last three years...”
~~~ Do you not understand a person saying “I’m not going to use it, but you do know that he leads the majors in wins the last three years right” is just flat out saying it?

And you didn’t understand what you had been saying when you chimed in “I’m not talking about Escobar+More+12m is worth it to the Braves” when you had in fact said that exact thing like 5 times!

But see, it all kind of boils down to this statement you made a few posts ago…
“I think that he has proven that he is a .300 hitter...”
~~~ Now, this statement says “1/2 the season in the books, and he has already proven he is a 300 hitter ~ doesn’t matter what the rest of the season brings” Get it? What if he did hit 250 the rest of the season and finishes at around 280? Well? See, 1/2 the season is not equal to the full season is it ~ if you make all your determinations off 1/2 the season then what can I do? Get it NOW? See, you’re telling me “he has proved he is a 300 hitter” at the same time as saying “I know what you’re saying” ~ get it? Well, you obviously don’t know what I’m saying because it obviously doesn’t make any sense what so ever if you can’t put the two together… See, if you knew what I was saying you would be watchful for a huge drop in the second half which would bring his numbers down lower ~ but you don’t understand that and instead said that he has proven otherwise because of the 2.5 months he has played… get it now?

Probably not, but what can I do…

[darkstar1661]

So I just don’t think you understand at all, otherwise I don’t think there would be so many contradicting statements made, and it seems every post you reply with has one… If you understood then you would have stopped replying with more runarounds when I kept stating my stance and asking what you wanted from me. If you actually wanted something you would have said what you wanted when you replied, but the only things you ever said you wanted was for me to again explain things I had explained a thousand times. Call me an arrogant prick or whatever, it doesn’t matter to me ~ I have been as clear as I possibly could be and I still keep getting the same questions, I still keep getting the same remarks and I still keep getting the same “but right NOW” theory you have…

And if you really got it, you wouldn’t have replied when I said that I’m done, that I didn’t want to hear you say the same things again and again and that I didn’t want you to respond! Did you understand that, or did you respond yet again? Are you that stupid as to say “oh yeah I understand but…” to anything ever said to you? Are you really that dense?

…but what can I do, you don’t even seem to understand that you don’t understand…

[darkstar1661]

(((humm, had a hard time getting that one to post... had to break it up some so here is the rest)))

Can you not grasp a single thing, or do you just continually have to make your stance known even if the person could give a crap what you think? I know your stance, I’ve heard it a thousand times! You think 2005 and 1/2 2007 equals they are different players… Great! Are you going to prove it by ignoring anything anyone else says? Are you going to prove it by ignoring the direction that their current 07 numbers are going? And why are you trying to prove it in the middle of the season anyway? And you’ll probably reply with something like “yeah, but all I was saying was…” now because its what you do ~ its all you do. People say “it doesn’t make sense” and you say “yeah, but look at it like this” repeating the same thing you had already said a hundred times! Look at the “All I am saying is the Braves should think about trading Salty for Sean Marshall” statement you kept giving over and over and over again. No one thought it was a good idea, everyone gave you reasons why it wasn’t a good idea and each time you just kept in with “All I am saying is the Braves should think about trading Salty for Sean Marshall”…

[darkstar1661]

Oh, and lastly I’m not going to respond to something you said you don’t want to talk about because the last time I responded to something you brought up saying you didn’t want to talk about I was told that I shouldn’t be talking about it! Why bring something up if you don’t want to talk about it, why ask a question when you say in the same sentence that you don’t want to hear about it? Its just one more illogical statements in a series of them from you, and I’m not going to baited into another “see, I hear what you are saying but how can you say that using only stats and trends because I think…” arguments you love to have…

[Aduncaroo]

I KNEW IT!!! I knew you couldn't just admit you were wrong about Rolen and Ramirez. I knew you were an arrogant prick who thinks they know everything, but when it comes down to it, you are so busy trying to find "trends" that you don't see whats right in front of you when it slaps you in the damn face.

And as far as all your arrogant remarks about me not getting your point...is this not your point??

"All I am saying is that you say

They will be A

They are doing B

And you are just saying...yeah...but lets wait...they will still do A. In fact, they will do worse than A so they can get back to A.

That is what you are saying. I disagree with it...but still, its the argument that you are making. I'm sorry that I feel like what they have done for half the season is a reflection on what they will do for the whole season. You can think otherwise, thats fine. I am not saying that they might not do worse than they have so far...but I think it will be closer to my suggestions than what you are calling "A". Can you not just say, ok, I understand and we just disagree? "

Like I said...I got it a long time ago. You are just an idiot who keeps saying the same thing because you think you have proven something, when in reality you haven't proven a damn thing.

I guess you really are "that dense!"

And again, like I said, you still cant answer the Rolen and Ramirez thing, can you? You are too busy being an arrogant prick and refusing to admit when you were wrong. YOU WERE WRONG...JUST SAY IT AND BE DONE! Rolen < Ramirez at this point in their careers...and both you and I know it.

You are probably going to respond with some book...and it won't mean a thing. Because in the end you still can't say either "Yes, I would stil take Rolen" or "I was wrong, I'll take Ramirez" because both make you look like a complete fool.

Acutally, you are doing that anyway.

I never said Lee would hit .354 for the season! Can you tell me where I did??? I said he is a .300 hitter....and you already admitted that you are probably wrong, because he probably won't hit .250 the rest of the way. (Oh, and he was 1 for 3 today, actually raising his average by the slightest bit, so I guess again, your little "trend" is favoring me.)

[Aduncaroo]

and I'm only using one game as a "trend" because you seemed to like to do that when Garland had a bad game.

I still think its amusing that you can say its valid for you to use one game as a trend, but not when I do.

Now you are going to say I still don't get it....but hate to tell you buddy, I get it. I just don't agree. And lets just all keep in mind how many posts we went round and round about Ramirez and Rolen...and guess what, you were full of it! It was all crap, you ended up wrong!

I will say that Salty is worth more than Marshall and Pagan\Murton. I suggested the trade because I think that the braves need a young, cheap, good starting pitcher and the cubs need a catcher. However, I think that Salty could probably end up fetching them more...I just said they should "take a look at it." So I am admitting they could get more....

Now...lets see if you have enough decency in you to at least admit where you were wrong. Hmmm...I bet I know the answer....YOU DONT.

[darkstar1661]

Dude, you have so many issues…

Want to know my points yet again?

1) it isn’t worth Escobar + more + 12m for Garland to the Braves

2) Garland has been near perfectly *lgERA for his career outside of 1 full year

3) Lee generally puts up good numbers in the first half and bad numbers in the second
averaging out to 280/370/500ish

So, what am I wrong about so far?
Ok, then we have:

4) I want to talk about “complete seasons” and not “1/2 seasons”

5) “1/2 seasons” can not show what “complete season” numbers are

6) what they are doing “right now” is “1/2 a season”

More points?

7) I keep asking what you want from me and I get you changing the subject! WHAT DO YOU WANT???
~ ok, from your last post this one seems like you may just want me to say I’m wrong about something ~ and really anything apparently, but what am I wrong about? What of the above is wrong? How can I say I’m wrong about anything if the season isn’t over?

8) “trend” is being used for a bigger picture, drastic change in numbers over a period of about 2 weeks
~ Again, I didn’t even want to talk about it, but you saying RIGHT NOW over and over and over and over and over again led me to point out RIGHT NOW. Forget I said it, afterall I told you I didn’t care when I did say it! If you don’t understand that by now then I don’t know what to tell you…

9) You’re not listening to me at all; or just really, really don’t understand a thing…
~ You haven’t asked questions that I can answer because most of them are “how can you say…” when I have just explained what you’re questioning or “I see what you’re saying but…” and giving something that shows you don’t see what I’m saying at all… Like I said, no one thought your Salty for Marshall trade was even worth thinking about for a moment; but it didn’t stop you from saying “I understand, I just think the Braves should think about it…” over and over again ~ get it?

10) I don’t want to talk to you! I don’t respect anything you’ve said on here because you really haven’t said anything!!!
~ Everything said has A) been inconsistent (see your stance on #1) or B) been nothing more than “I think”. “I think is fine, what do you have to back it up though? You need something ~ anything really ~ “I think otherwise” isn’t an argument in itself though… But what have you given as evidence? “2005 & Right Now isn’t what you say it should be” and nothing more. No “well, he adjusted this and that”… no “well he has an easy schedule ahead”… no “well he compares best to so-and-so who did this”… nothing but “I think otherwise”

11) I have “ignored”, not “answered” your stupid question which you started by saying “I don’t want to talk about it” to…
~ Why would I answer it, what does it have to do with anything we are talking about? It’s just you trying to change the subject further…

12) I’ve asked you 3 times not to reply to me, yet here you are once again…
~ You say you understand yet keep doing everything possible to show you don’t understand… If you understand then you don’t reply, when you do reply it shows you don’t understand ~ get it?

13) Saying “I hear what you’re saying but...” to the same thing over and over again is pointless
~ Hence the reason we are still talking!!! I don’t want to talk to you, my points are clear and I just can’t comprehend how I can say them so many times yet here you still are, still trying to nitpick and change the subject…

Now since I know you will reply yet again anyway because you can’t seem to grasp what I’ve said to you; when you do, please don’t continue to grasp at straws and just stay on topic!!! Either give me plain, short, simple numbered questions you would like answered or really don’t bother! Understand what that means? It means make your reply like mine and keep it to short, non-contradicting questions (ie don’t say “I respect what you are saying about him being *lgERA, but I cant respect what you saying he will be *lgERA”) I think I have been completely clear on everything I said so I have no clue as to what you could possibly ask (hence the reason I keep asking you what you want from me!) but who knows with you…

And no, don’t bring up Rolen vs Ramirez because that is a different topic completely!!! It has absolutely no baring on this conversation what so ever and is a pitiful attempt for you to somehow think you can make a point. You seem to keep going because you want to prove me wrong and since you’re having such a hard time doing so you instead started bringing up Lee, Rolen, Ramirez etc… How about only 2 conversations at a time (2 because I already got duped into your Lee thing…)

2 more things…
Great, you said:
“the Braves can get more for Salty, all I was saying is they should think about it”…
~ but that’s all you ever said! And everyone else said “why would they think about it”! If I could get a lot more, why would I even think about average at best players?

Oh, lastly to again point out how much you really don’t seem to understand things said…
“I never said Lee would hit .354 for the season! Can you tell me where I did??? I said he is a .300 hitter....”
~ I never said you did either moron…

[Aduncaroo]

Like I said, you just can't do it. You are so damn arrogant that you can't admit where you were wrong.

You try to say you don't want to address it and its a whole other topic.

Well, lets make it the topic if thats what it takes to get you to answer it.

Do you:

A)Still prefer to take Rolen

OR

B)Now prefer to take Ramirez?

Is that easy enough for you, you freakin moron?

Its a multiple choice question with only two answers...so maybe you might be able to just put down A or B. Probably not though...because you are too arrogant to admit you are wrong, because you know now that either answer makes you look like the absolute fool that you are.

You have continued to bring up the Salty for Marshall and Pagan\Murton thing....but I can't bring this up? What an absolute idiot!

JUST ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTION....A OR B!!!!! THATS ALL IT TAKES!

You asked what I want from you?? Thats it, A OR B!!!

Can you do this, or is your arrogance going to hinder you from being able to answer a question that makes you look like a moron either way?

I bet I know.....

Damn, its like trying to walk a 4 year old though saying he is sorry to another kid....you are that bad dude. You just can't say when you are wrong. There are 5 year olds with that capability...but still, you don't have it.

[darkstar1661]

You really, really, really don’t get a single thing do you? You can’t grasp the most simplest of concepts can you…

WHAT AM I WRONG ABOUT???
IN THIS TOPIC, WHAT AM I WRONG ABOUT???
LOOK AT THIS THREAD, AND ALL THE THINGS WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IN THIS THREAD, AND TELL ME WHAT I AM WRONG ABOUT!!!

I’m just like a child right? You’re trying to force me to say I’m wrong to anything you can pull out of your ass, so I’m the childish one right?

So, in the little parable you gave, I guess the teacher tried to first get the kid to admit he was sorry for something he didn’t do, and when she couldn’t prove that she tried to get him to admit he’s sorry for something else he didn’t do, and when she couldn’t prove that she tried to get him to say he’s sorry for something else he didn’t do, then when… well you get the point!

Oh, and just so you know (which I doubt you’ll be able to understand this either but I guess I’ll point it out just incase anyway…)

“You try to say you don't want to address it and its a whole other topic.
Well, lets make it the topic if thats what it takes to get you to answer it.”

So, I’m telling you that all you do is repeat the same thing or change the subject when you can’t make a point and telling you to just make a point already; your response… well… you say “well lets change the subject then”? Huh?

Then you really somehow think I’m actually changing the subject by bringing up Marshall for Salty? Huh? When did I say “well let’s talk about Salty…” in an attempt to make that the topic? I said “YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING YOU DID IN THE SALTY THING” not saying “oh, well let’s talk about Salty”. Get it??? I’m saying “this is all you ever do, look there and you will see the same thing you are doing here” ~ IT’S NOT CHANGING THE SUBJECT!!!

So go ahead, think I’m arrogant because of the fact that I am trying to stay ON TOPIC ~ you know, trying to actually get something resembling a point from you regarding the topic we are talking to each other about in the first place! Think I’m arrogant because I won’t say I’m just “wrong” on whatever you randomly bring up which you think I should somehow say I’m wrong to… Think whatever you want ~ I’ve already told you I don’t respect what you think anyway because you can’t provide anything which actually makes a point!!!

Now, will you just go away or should I expect yet another runaround, off topic, grasping at straws, nitpicking, rant and rave about what you think about me… as you try to, well I guess just prove to yourself you are actually not completely worthless(?) I can’t think of another reason to do it, so I guess that has to be it… Why else would you dodge making a point on the actual topic we are talking about and instead try to talk about anything you can pull out of your ass that you somehow feel high and mighty about…

I don’t want to talk to you period, I’m not going to get into yet another “well you’re wrong because of RIGHT NOW” argument with you that will go on for days ~ so no, I’m not even going to touch the topic… Nothing is “A or B” when there are tons of factors involved ~ so yes, it would bring up yet another argument ~ just like Lee did… If you want to make a point on THIS TOPIC feel free as I would love to hear one from you, but I’m not getting pulled into yet another!

[Aduncaroo]

HA HA HA HA!!!

I knew it! You can't do it! WOW....

Yeah...I guess thats about all I have to say....WOW. What an arrogant moron.

Still can't answer the question, can you?

[Aduncaroo]

Oh...and its A or B. I don't even care why you think either A or B....but the answer to the question is A OR B!!!!!

Would you rather have:

A) Rolen
B) Ramirez

Man..seems to me like it IS a matter of either A or B.

[darkstar1661]

Honestly, you really don’t understand things very well, do you? You do struggle with simple comprehension situations and have a difficult time seeing anything outside of your focus at that moment in time, don’t you?

To answer your question, I would be happy with either to this point and am still comfortable with my choice going forward the rest of the season…

Now more importantly, have you been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder or something similar? I’m not asking to put you down, I’m asking because it’s a serious question… Have you had suicidal thoughts or maybe made threats of doing such a thing when in difficult situations with those close to you? Again, completely serious; and don’t be ashamed if the answer is yes. And how old are you?

Really, not trying to make fun of you or put you down, and not trying to prove anything; I’m honestly asking the questions…

[Aduncaroo]

You are hilarious!! I'm wondering how many relationships you have been in where the other person got sick of you never admitting when you were wrong.....probably about every one.

How is age relevant to anything? Maturity wise, I'm way ahead of you, and thats pretty much all that matters. You've shown that several times.

[darkstar1661]

I ask about your age because of the time frame where symptoms start to show themselves clearly... It often times gets written off or just called maturity issues at younger ages.

Since it seems important to you somehow, my last 5 relationships lasted at least a year each ~ one was 6yrs...

Also, can't understand why you would again claim I can't say I'm wrong, when in fact you haven't given anything which you can say I'm really wrong about. Want me to say I'm wrong about something, then there has to be something to say it about... I have no problem when its warrented, its the blind backing down just because someone says I have to which I don't do.

The only problem I have had with a person even remotly close to what you claim is a person I once dated who felt persecuted and judged upon anything ever said or done. She too couldn't stay on the topic of conversations, ignored whatever she was doing to create strife and insist on trying to make others look bad if she felt she came off as incorrect or having fault...

Hers was actually a mental condition, which led to my schooling on the subject...

[darkstar1661]

I ask about your age because of the time frame where symptoms start to show themselves clearly... It often times gets written off or just called maturity issues at younger ages.

Since it seems important to you somehow, my last 5 relationships lasted at least a year each ~ one was 6yrs...

Also, can't understand why you would again claim I can't say I'm wrong, when in fact you haven't given anything which you can say I'm really wrong about. Want me to say I'm wrong about something, then there has to be something to say it about... I have no problem when its warrented, its the blind backing down just because someone says I have to which I don't do.

The only problem I have had with a person even remotly close to what you claim is a person I once dated who felt persecuted and judged upon anything ever said or done. She too couldn't stay on the topic of conversations, ignored whatever she was doing to create strife and insist on trying to make others look bad if she felt she came off as incorrect or having fault...

Hers was actually a mental condition, which led to my schooling on the subject...