Olney: Braves Interested In Arroyo

ESPN's Buster Olney heard a rumor: the Braves are interested in Bronson Arroyo.  Olney believes the Reds would demand Jarrod Saltalamacchia.  Personally, I think Salty can bring someone better.  And using him at first base isn't the worst idea in the world, if no one knocks John Schuerholz's socks off. 

Arroyo is the definition of an innings eater, and he's signed at about market rate.  On second thought, $10MM a year for him might be slightly below-market.  Atlanta got a good look at Arroyo last night, as the 30 year-old hurler had his best start of the season (seven scoreless innings).  Arroyo has been solid in his last five starts, though he did get to face the Cardinals and Giants.

So, are there any Braves fans out there who would trade Salty for Arroyo?

Comments

[xxxJamesxxx]

As a Phillies fan, I'd be delighted if Atlanta traded away one of, if not the best position prospect in the NL East out of the division. Scherholtz can't be that dumb.

[WesleyC]

As a Braves fan, I'm torn about trading Salty. On one hand he could be the face of the future if the Braves try to convert him into a first baseman, but on the other hand the Braves's really need to make a run at it this year because A. Jones will be gone after this year and Smoltz and Chipper have only a year or 2 left at most.

I think I'd lean toward trading Salty, but not for Arroyo. I heard a rumor that the Braves were potentially looking at sending Salty to the Pirates for Ian Snell, and that would be a much better deal.

[Torchy]

What about "young starter with top of the rotation potential" doesn't compute? This trade is possible but it won't be for Salty.

[darkstar1661]

Ok, this is getting nuts…

… its like all these media guys are reading the comments on this site and picking out everything the fans say don’t make sense to make a rumor out of it.

Salty for Arroyo makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It adds Payroll Atl cant take on, Arroyo isn’t the Difference maker the Braves said they would demand for him and a guy like Arroyo can be had cheaper…

Stupid rumor; next...

[bringbackrocker]

Atlanta has to keep Salty. With Brian, Jeff, and Salty anchoring the middle of the lineup, I like our odds in the future. We are going to need some hitters considering we will probably have a scrub in CF.

[darkstar1661]

Oh, did want to point out that the previous post was not an attack on you though Tim! You passing on information isn’t a bad thing, it’s the stuff these media guys are coming up with that’s the problem…

[ErroRod1985]

No way Jose! Cinncinatti wants to deal him to clear payroll, so I'd definately be reluctant to offer up a major gem like Salty. The prices for mediocre to average pitching is ridiculous. Their better off throwing Bobby Cox in the rotation then offering up a top level prospect for a over 4 era in the NL.

[ZJ]

I don't think Schuerholz would even listen to an offer like that. The Braves have too much inventive to keep Salty to trade him for a middle of the road pitcher like Arroyo. Schuerholz will sit back and wait on a Snell or Harang and if he doesn't get it, then Salty will remain a Brave.

[tfields01]

What WOULD Braves fans take for Salty? Snell? Gorzelanny? Dontrelle? Contreras?

Arroyo's not THAT far off of those guys in terms of numbers, and he's locked up for 4 years at below market value. He's definitely not a "middle of the road" pitcher. He's a legit 2/3 starter. I think the Reds may need to kick in a left-handed reliever or two to the Braves, but I could see it happening.

[tfields01]

Oh, and Cincy is not trying to move Arroyo for payroll purposes. They signed him long term this offseason (which I was pissed about, because he was WAAAY below market before the new deal and would've had better deadline value without the new deal), and will only deal him if they feel they can get an impact guy like Salty in return. Otherwise, they'll hang on to him and build the rotation around Harang, Arroyo, and Bailey

[Legas]

It'd take a lot more for me to part with Salty than Bronson. There are a lot of pitchers that play the guitar, but this offense (Jeff, Brian, Salty, Chipper) has a lot of potential. Project a season or two out with Brent and Willie and Kelly, and I think that it'll rival the 03 squad. I think that we gave up on the high powered offense idea too quickly....so yeah, no deal for Salty for some SLIGHTLY better than average pitcher...now for Teixiera-that'd be nice.

[Aduncaroo]

"Salty for Arroyo makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It adds Payroll Atl cant take on, Arroyo isn’t the Difference maker the Braves said they would demand for him and a guy like Arroyo can be had cheaper…"

Well said Dark, I agree. The braves are in NO WAY taking on payroll. If they trade Salty, it will be for a good young starting pitcher that is cheap for years to come, but already above average. It doesn't make sense for them to do anything else.

[buehrlebro]

The best match I can find for Salty is Javy Vasquez. What the White Sox would do with A.J. after that is another question.

[Chipper]

I'm not making the Arroyo for Salty trade if I'm JS.

[bravesbeast]

tfields01,

The difference is called age. Snell is 25, Gorzelanny is 24, Willis is 25. Contreras was never a consideration for the braves concerning salty. Bronson Arroyo is either at the end of his prime or past it, while those other guys are still a few years away from their prime. I am sorry, but the trade is not happening. This especially is true since salty is the braves best option at first base, where his production will take us from league worst to league average.

No one on this site typed more about salty than I have, and all along I have stated taht the Braves want a bounty that will help now and in the future more than salty would. Arroyo would our number 4 starter, so he would improve us that much now, and even though he is signed for 2 or 3 more years, he still is not worth salty because he is probably past his prime. Yes the Braves would love an innings eater, but they could get just as many innings from snell and gorzelanny, maybe a few less, but far more of those innings would be productive than what would come from arroyo. No one can justify this trade because Arroyo is nine years older than salty, so just quit trying.

Furthermore, the braves are not going to trade salty for guys who are a decade older just to get better this year. They have already stated they do not want to have to commit to large contracts after this year that comes in a trade, that means that Vazquez or Arroyo are not going to get salty. I know it may be hard for some of you to figure this out, BUT THE BRAVES ARE NOT GOING TO TRADE AWAY THEIR BEST PROPSECT WHO FEELS A NEED FOR THE BRAVES JUST TO ACQUIRE A GOOD VETERAN PITCHER. It makes no sense at all, because of the high commitment in dollars and the fact that these pitchers are probably past their prime. A younger pitcher is what is wanted because we can have that pitcher for cheap, and who also is impactful and still has their prime in front of them. It is called logic folks, how about some of you start thinking in that mode.

[bravesbeast]

*so arroyo would not improve us that much now

[tfields01]

Damn, someone was pissed off about the potential (now, actual) sweep...LOL

[buehrlebro]

Well than your options are very limited. Here's a list of starters I've compiled that the team would be willing to deal for Salty, or maybe some other Braves prospects considering their age/caliber. Some are better options than others.

Harden
Gaudin
Burnett
Lowry
Morris
Willis
Snell?
Shields
Francis? Doubtful since they have Ianetta and Francis for quite cheap.
Joe Kennedy
Loaiza
Vasquez
Garland

[buehrlebro]

The most intriguing one I listed is James Shields, who would cost more than Salty alone. The D-Rays need a catcher for the future and have plenty of pitching prospects. Maybe Salty and Devine would get it done, but I think they want to keep Shields.

[Aduncaroo]

Harden won't do it, he is injured. Burnett costs WAY too much. Remember, they will NOT add payroll. Lowry is doubtful, but maybe...Morris...as in Matt? Not exactly cheap, not exactly young....not sure why he is on the list. Willis...I think he is the best candidate, but even he isn't going to be cheap for that long. Shields is possible, Francis, umm, maybe I guess, no to kennedy, NO to Loaiza and Vasquez...and not even Garland unless they are paying all his contract. Probably not even then.

Again, they want a better than average pitcher that is cheap for at least three years. Anything more expensive than half a mil and older than probably 26 is probably not going to do it...except in certain circumstances, but not many.

[buehrlebro]

Well good luck with that. Because I just called Dave Dombrowski and he told me Verlander wasn't available.

[Guitar Hero]

Thorman is the one to trade, not Saltalamachia. However, the Reds wouldn't be a good fit what with Votto. I don't think Salty for Arroyo (plus money prolly) would be good for Atlanta. They can do a smidgen better.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

Dear Devil Rays,

Seeing as how you are such a pitching stacked team we would like your best pitcher. Here is a catcher with a total of 123 ML at bats.

Sincerely,

Complete idiot.

[buehrlebro]

Yeah except the Hammer of Thor is a little low on value right now. He might net you Jimmy Gobble though, if you're lucky

[darkstar1661]

B.Bro,

Maybe thats why the team said they WOULDNT TRADE HIM unless thats what they got ~ ie they are not looking to trade him!

BUT, they actually can find that… hence the Pitt rumors…

[buehrlebro]

Hey man I was just trying to appease the wrath of the ragin Braves fan...

Anyway, the time to trade Salty is now while his trade value is as a catcher, not a first basemen. It's a crime to keep two young studly MLB ready catchers on the same team. Snell and Gorzo are the things Pittburg really has to root for anymore, I don't think they're going away. I just don't like the idea of wasting Salty's catching skills to get his bat in the line up.

[bravesbeast]

The braves are probably going to see what type of market their is for their middle infield depth, with lillibridge or escobar being the prize of a package to go get a veteran starter. With that being said, I think that the Giants are the best trading partner for the braves, as we could take matt morris or possibly noah lowry and give them some young major league ready offensive talent in return. That type of deal seems to make the most sense. And no the Drays are not going to trade Shields.

And tfields, nice way to try and make a joke, but sorry, ignorance kinda ticks me off, and in your case, the more there is the more I get a bit heated. Braves got swept, congrats to the reds, now get above .500 and actually in the pennant race, and then you can talk. Thanks for playing though.

[integr96]

Looking at the Braves salary for next year, you guys are not looking too good. I have added up about. 70M and that is for McCann, Francoeur, Harris, Chipper, Renteria, Kelly Johnson, Smoltz, Hampton, Hudson, Woodward, Gonzalez, Villareal and Sturtze. That is without a CF, 1B, 2 Pitchers, 4 Bench players, and 3 Relief Pitchers. If you are thinking about making sure to can win it this year, you might be better off getting the best pitcher you absolutely can because even if you get a young guy that is good for a few years, who is going to fill all the other holes that they will have for next year?

[bravesbeast]

For the 100th time, Salty is 22, playing first base for the rest of this season is not going to deprive him of his catching skills. And btw, if the braves want to keep him, then moving him away from catcher means he will probably stay healthier, and thus will be able to more of an offensive contribution. Remember, he has more value to the braves no because he is our best option at firstbase. If he has the production of an average major league first baseman, that is fine. Our first baseman combined to hit .202 with 11 homers and 28 rbis in the first three months. If Salty can provide league average production at first, his value to the braves is through the roof, this meaning we are more likely to keep him, thus making his value to other teams irrelevant.

[Mr_Punch]

I love it when Salty gets mentioned...haha

[schellis]

There are actually quite a few Reds fans that wouldn't do this deal because they feel that Arroyo is a front line starter signed to a very friendly contract, basically Eric Milton dollars for far far better production.

That being said Arroyo is what he is, he isn't going to get any better. He's a veteran innings eater with something of a rubber arm. He's not going to be the number 1 guy on a championship team but the majority of them do have someone like him as well.

I agree with what was posted above that Salty's value comes from being a catcher, there are a fair number of 1B's that can produce similar numbers, but you could probably count on one hand the number of catchers that would be similarly valueable offensively, and the Braves already have one of those.

That being said unless you would be willing to take on a young pitcher that is less talented then someone like Arroyo is now you are not dealing Salty for a pitcher (if young and cheap really are the sticking points) Pitchers that can keep their ERA's around 3.50-4.50 and eat innings all while costing less then a million just aren't going anywhere because genearlly the teams don't have anyone that could step up into that role. Most teams aren't like the Twins that have three or four average ML starters at AAA.

I don't know if I'd deal Salty for Arroyo, I think there would be a better deal to be had too, but there is a limited number of arms availible that would be better then Arroyo as well.

I suppose if you really were insistent on a young starter with some upside he could go for Ervin Santana. He's not cheap and he's really not that good but at least he's young.

The teams that have the young effective talent really don't need a catcher.

If I was the Reds I would offer something like this

Arroyo, Hatteberg, and Travis Wood (a young top say 15 SP prospect for the Reds) for Salty and a bullpen arm. Perhaps throw in a lefty as well, though I don't know who would want any of the Reds bullpeners outside of Weathers.

[schellis]

And yes the Reds would want Salty. Arroyo signed a favorable contract and is GABP effective. He's not on the market really to move, just to see what bites he could get.

[darkstar1661]

yeah no kidding MrPunch...

Why is it that everyone seems to insist that:

A) the braves MUST trade Salty
B) His value as a catcher goes down if he plays first for Atl (like BravesBest said, its not like he forgets how to catch by playing 1st for a few months)
C) insist that the Braves take whatever overrated average pitcher is the newest to be thrown into the rumors no matter how much sense it actually makes
D) insist that the Braves add guys who make a ton of money despite them not wanting to add money!

What we actually know is:
1) THE BRAVES DON’T WANT TO TRADE HIM… they wont do so for less than “young, cheap, difference maker” type
2) THE BRAVES WILL NOT ADD PAYROLL! They cant afford to
3) THE BRAVES DON’T PLAY FOR “NOW” like every other team does, they think long-term over instant gratification
4) THE BRAVES NEED SALTY RIGHT NOW! He is their best option at first for the time being
Its real simple, the trade either helps them a ton this year and the next few while not adding payroll or it doesn’t happen… its real simple guys, Salty just inst being traded whether you think he should be or not…

And B.Bro,
No problem, I get what you were trying to do. But see above (which has been explained by countless Braves fans every time his name is mentioned) and maybe you’ll get why I posted that… Sorry if it came off aggressive towards you, its more just towards going through this every third day…

[coolpapabell]

This is Messy. Can't they just trade McCann and keep the younger cheaper catcher?

I also am skeptical about the Braves deep need to win this year. If they felt this way, they could have and should have signed Glavine. It would have taken only 10-11 M. It would have really really screwed the Mets. Not only this year, but in the long term as well, i.e. Zito's contract for six years. Wilpon is not one to eat contracts and expand budgets. If Glavine is a Brave the Mets are three to five games back in second place right now. I also think attendance would have picked up in Atl the nights that Glavine pitches to "chase History" which would have balanced out the 11M.

Lastly, would Salty's catch skills diminish if he starts at first and platoons at the catching position?

[bravesrule14]

this is my first post in a long time, but i felt i should just say that JS would never be stupid enough to trade Salty for a second-tier pitcher who has an awful ERA in the NL Central. Arroyo would get pounded in the NL East hands down. if they could work a 3 way trade with Texas and get Teixeira with Salty going to Cincy and Arroyo going to Texas. that would both possible and pluasible, but i highly doubt it

[bizfitch]

I wonder how this Braves team would have looked this year if that offseason trade with Pittsburgh was Scott Thorman for Damaso Marte instead of Laroche for Gonzalez.

[buehrlebro]

Texas gets Arroyo for Teixiera

Sure

But the Reds drafted a catcher in the first round this year, can't remember his name. It was supposed to be a safe pick so he probably won't be long for the majors. They might end up with the same problem in a couple of years. They could trade for Teixiera but they should probably go for pitching instead. Dunno how Ol' Smoltzy will hold up near the end of his career. Hudson is FA eligible after 08. Then you have James and Davies. Then we get into the likes of Jo-Jo Reyes and Buddy Carlyle. They're a little deprived to say the least.

[bravesrule14]

it will probably never happen i admit and our pitching staff is ridiculous after Smoltz, Hudson, and possibly James. we need someone like Greinke, Snell, or Gorzo, but the fact is it would take an awful lot to get it. obviously Salty, Escobar, Devine, etc. so im stuck here we need pitching but we also need just a lil more offense to catch the Mets. lets just hope JS is good in the clutch.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

"But the Reds drafted a catcher in the first round this year, can't remember his name. It was supposed to be a safe pick so he probably won't be long for the majors."

Devin Mesoraco. He's a HS catcher, who if everything goes perfectly is still 3 years off.

[Blue]

Reds fan here.

There's really no good reason for the Braves not to keep him and play him at 1B.

The Reds probably won't trade Arroyo, anyway. I think Griffey has a good chance to go somewhere.

[plh903]

Here's a crazy thought.

Keep Salty and McCann fresh by playing them both at 1B and C.

[AkulaMkii]

Although I agree Arroyo is not the difference-maker the Braves are looking for, the available pitching is very thin (Jose Contreras being the best available starter is just sad) and the price of even mediocre arms is absurdly high these days. The reality is that the Braves are not going to get a "young impact pitcher" for Salty because young impact pitchers are what every team wants first and foremost. So don't even bring up Snell/Gorzo if you're going to complain about "worthless media speculation". After all, Salty has not proven anything great yet. He is certainly a great prospect who the Braves should seek good return on if they move him, but the kind of players the Braves are asking for are the kinds of players other teams don't trade.

[bravesrule14]

hey plh heres a crazy thought stop makin wise ass comments becuz the Braves anve played both McCann and Salty at first this year. but the Braves need pitching, but Arroyo wouldnt do becuase hes too old, expensive(for the braves payroll) and hes pretty bad. we should look for sumone like Greinke, Snell,Willis, or Gorzo. i've already said this before. oh and it has just occured to me that every trade rumour with the Braves Salty would be required because really, hes all the Braves got lol. maybe besides Lerew or Devine. asin prospects i mean or course

[Thundersticks]

plh903 - That idea has actually been mentioned. It would be more for next year so they can both work on their 1B skills, but it is a possibility. McCann catches Smoltz and Hudson while Salty catches the younger guys. Whoever is not catching plays 1B.

darkstar1661 - Couldn't agree with you more. Non-Braves fans wonder why we "overvalue" Salty. First of all, potential stud catchers are hard to come by. Secondly, the Braves aren't really looking to trade him. If they do, its going to take a lot to get him because then we will have to go and fill the hole created at 1B. I believe whatever SP they do get - and JS will get one - it will be in exchange for a middle IF and surplus pieces because that is our strength.

I've seen mention by some others on here about Salty's defense. Prior to this year, he really hadn't played much at the position. I'll save my judgment on that aspect until this time next year when he's had some time to work on it. I went to last night's game and, apart from the brainfart in the first inning, he looked solid. I'm not saying he's going to win a Gold Glove anytime soon, but as long as he provides average defense he'll be fine.

Blue - Griffey would look really good playing LF in a Braves uniform this year. As long as the Reds would pay the deferred salary - which any acquiring team would ask them to do - we could afford him. While the Braves aren't looking to add significant payroll, they do have some payroll flexibility.

[Torchy]

A few things. First, bravesrule14 you're wrong. Flat out. McCann has never played a game @ 1B in the majors. Second, Arroyo is making under $4mil this year and next. That's a good price for a #3. His contract is backloaded so as long as he performs up to par the braves have a chance to trade him later. Further, anyone who claims the Braves have no money to spend is no expert. The braves actually have quite a bit of money to spend. A good portion of Hampton's contract is coming back to them. This is why you see the braves looking at expensive Vets like Young, Tex, etc. If the money wasn't there they wouldn't even bother. Finally, Salty is a big price to pay for Arroyo, but there are other options. How about Escobar and Davies? Both are cheap and both fill needs.

[buehrlebro]

The Braves aren't going to compete if they don't get a pitcher this year. Taking something you can afford to lose and snagging something you don't have with it is just common logic. Believe it or not, lefty mashers who can play first base aren't hard to find. Hell, you have one in Diaz, and even Franco might help. You could even play Escobar at first and he'll probably produce at same or better than Salty, who will get you much more in a trade. Lots of guys will be available for cheap, like Wiggington or Millar and Dmitri Young if you're willing to give a little extra, Dan Johnson, Pedro Feliz, Rich Aurillia, Hatteburg, Loretta, Conine, Broussard, Tony Clark, the list goes on forever and a lot of those guys can be had for B level prospects. Thorman's bound to get hot soon anyway. Point is, Salty isn't really needed this year if you're the Braves, pitching is.

[bravesbeast]

Buehrlebro,

But the thing is the braves do not think in terms of just this year, or are more reluctant too after the jd drew and kyle farnsworth trades. We can compete this year, we have so far, and while you may be right that we need more pitching, it can be found using other prospects besides salty. Yes, you may be right about the availability of lefty mashing first baseman, buy you are intentionally being stupid in leaving out the point that salty could be much more than that. Plus, he is also 22, and we have him for five more seasons for cheap, so why should we need to spend more money when we already have what we need at first base or at catcher? Come on man, quit trying to find a logical answer as to why the braves should trade salty for a White sox pitcher, it just does not matchup, but thanks for playing. Come back when you actually think.

[buehrlebro]

I am thinking, and what I'm thinking is that the Braves won't be able to get into the playoffs this year if they don't get another good starting pitcher. Next year you have the same rotation at this point, no earth shattering top pitching prospects on the way. It just makes sense, and I think JS will go out and get someone that can help this year and in future years, and make one last playoff run with Andruw.

[darkstar1661]

B.Bro,

“It just makes sense, and I think JS will go out and get someone that can help this year and in future years, and make one last playoff run with Andruw”

Great, so why do they have to trade Salty to do it again?

So, it sounds as if you are saying they should probably trade Salty for a slightly above to league average 3-4 type right? Someone like Arroyo or Garland, maybe? Ok, then they don’t have anyone for 1B anymore so they trade maybe Escobar+ to bring in a player to fill that hole. Now the Braves are down Salty and Escobar and probably more just to replace Salty at first and add a 3-4 type? How is that getting ahead here? Then we need to think about 08 ~ salary is already added for the pitcher and they might need to sign another 1B again… Jones is leaving, cant trade ERent anymore because his replacement has been dealt… What to do, what to do, what to do…

How about the Braves just keep Salty (like they want to do) and if they want a pitcher, they trade someone else to get him? Doesn’t that seem much easier? If they really want a 3-4 type there are plenty around the league who can be had for a lot less than Salty ~ plain and simple…

[jfish26101]

Reason we didn't sign Glavine is we were already 7+ over our cap and we at the time felt Hampton would be ready to go (which was a big mistake by JS since we ended up with Redman for a while as his replacement). I personally loved the idea but I don’t see how it was going to work with the financial restrictions placed on the team. I was really surprised by all the talk really and wouldn't mind hearing exactly what happened but I imagine we weren't offering near what the Mets were.

You all (even the Braves fans who seem to forget it) need to remember what restrictions we have set on this team right now. Unless Liberty raises the cap, we still need to cut payroll to get under next year. With the 6 mill+ raises both Hudson and Smoltz get, that takes care of AJ's salary. Sure, let Wickman walk but we still have player raises to account for. How much room do you really think we are going to have? We just don't have the money to take on any vet who (1), isn't a rental and (2), we don't get cash considerations for.

Basically as reports have said, the ONLY thing that makes sense is getting a young impact pitcher that is a ways away from arbitration. I wouldn’t mind packaging Salty with either JoJo or Escobar to get it done if it’s the right guy. I think Salty for Snell straight up is decent; maybe add something small on our side but certainly nothing like Escobar/Reyes to get it done. Honestly, I don’t know who it would be really. It would need to be someone established enough to help push us over the hump this year but yet still 2-4 years from arb. I’m no GM but that is what I would be looking for. We have seen JS doesn’t mind paying for the possibility to win the division; it just has to be the right piece!

[jfish26101]

darkstar - I agree. If all they are looking for is someone like Arroyo or a rental, Salty should never even enter the discussions.

You have to admit (well maybe you don't have to lol) that Salty's numbers aren't going to make him an exceptional 1B. The Braves would really do well to cash in if possible but it has to be the right guy.

[Tim]

No do not do that trade. I think Jason Jennings is a better pitcher than Arroyo. He could easily have 8 or 9 wins if he played on a good team. He has pitched much better than his 1-6 record says. He has had 7 starts this year where he gave up 3 runs or less and got a no decision or loss. That just shows how horrible the Astros are this year.

Well I have been thinking the Braves are gonna have money to spend after Andruw Jones leaves next year. Andruw is getting 14 million this year and the Braves should be able to get 2 players for 14 million.

A guy that is getting 5.5 million this year is Jason Jennings and he is a free agent after this year. I would think that he wouldn't cost much more than 10 million next year unless a team like the Yankees decides to pay him like 15 million next year. But the Braves could trade for him and IMO be able to re-sign him.

So trade Salty for him and get a throw in like Mike Lamb to help out at 1st. Than turn around and see if they could trade Thorman to the Reds for left-handed reliever Mike Gosling. I don't know how realistic that would be though.

The Braves can always worry about 1B next year but fact is unless Jo-Jo Reyes turns out to be the answer to the open spot in the rotation or they get another starter the Braves aren't making the playoffs this year.

[buehrlebro]

I'm not suggesting to go for a 3-4 pitcher(which both Garland and Arroyo, despite his recent performance, are better than) with Salty. But if you can get a top of the rotation starter, like Vasquez, Willis, etc, then go for it because those guys don't come along every day. If they want, they should go for Jennings. Maybe Lowry. This would probably cost them Escobar or Lillibridge and/or Devine or, or Brandon Jones, someone they really can't afford to lose, so he's out. Oh, and Lillibridge would be Renteria's backup if Escobar is traded. Sooner or later he has to get a starting pitcher, and if this report that he is interested in doing so is true then he will, because he knows it's what they need. See, good hitting first basemen are less valuable and easier to come by than good starting pitchers. That's what they are and will be using Salty as if they keep him. But in the eyes of the other team, he's a good young catcher with a lot of pop. So do you want something that you already have and need less, or something you don't have and need more?

[buehrlebro]

Thank you Tim, I needed that support. But even I don't think the Braves should trade Salty for Jennings. They can do better.

[bizfitch]

Everyone seems to be reading into this Arroyo rumor a little too much. Buster Olney said that that braves might be interested him, however HE (Buster) is the one who speculated that the reds would not make that deal without the inclusion of Salty NOT WAYNE KRIVSKY AND NOT JOHN SHUERHOLZ. JS is a brilliant GM and he realizes that Salty has the potential to be a real special player in the future, that being said he has never been afraid to deal a youngster if it'll will help his team now. The Braves definitely need pitching help if they want to go far in the playoffs this year, because you would be asking a lot of Smotlz and Hudson to carry you through 3 series of games, even with Smotlz being the dominant postseason performer he is, the braves need another SP preferably with some strikeout ability

[Thundersticks]

One guy that has not been linked to the Braves, but Keith Law says might be available is Joe Blanton. He's not quite as young or cheap as Snell or Gorzelanny, but still has a couple more years at a reasonable price. JS and BB have a history of making trades. Blanton and Embree would fill the two most glaring holes we have. Another big bat -Junior maybe (I know a longshot) - wouldn't hurt, but without another solid SP that move would be pointless.

Jason Jennings might could be had for Lillibridge and another prospect since he would just be a two month rental. He wouldn't be my first choice, but should be a solid and reliable innings-eater which would be fine if we can't get someone a little better.

[bizfitch]

buehrlebro- I agree with you that decent 1B grow on trees, but I think that braves seem to be weary about getting rid of Salty because our 1B situation for the first half of the year was not anywhere close to league average production at the postition, and Thorman may or may not figure it out someday but I think a lot of fans are done with him and there really aren't any good options in the minors at first, and the braves likely won't be spending much in the way of free agents so hanging on to Salty seems right for now and the future. With all that being said, it will be tough to get a good SP without Salty included but JS has always been really creative and he might find a way to steal a guy away from somebody

[buehrlebro]

Blanton would cost a lot. He's still under control for 3 1/2 more years and he's a Billy Beane favorite. I don't think Beane wants to sell him off anyway. Joe Kennedy, on the other hand, could probably be had for one prospect. I would do Lillibridge for Kennedy straight up if I'm the Braves. Who knows, you might get a draft pick.

[Thundersticks]

You make an excellent point, bizfitch. The reason Salty's name is brought up so much is that when there is trade speculation involving the Braves, the other team is almost always going to start with asking for our top prospect - Salty. That doesn't mean JS would do the deal. I wouldn't mind having Arroyo, and Stanton maybe, as long as it doesn't cost Salty or Escobar. However, if Junior were to be included also.....

I look for Davies to get traded. While be interviewed by the media, he questioned Bobby's decision to pull him so quickly his last time out. Bobby will not stand for players who critize him publically. We'll see.

[buehrlebro]

It would be much wiser to go for a good, reliable starting pitcher at 10 mil a season than Griffey Jr. at 10 mil a year. The Braves already have a brutal offense when it isn't slumping, and will only get better as McCann, Thorman, Johnson and Francoeur continue to develop.

[darkstar1661]

Ok, granted it might be easier to get 1B off the FA market than middle of the rotation types, but maybe not for the Braves since they cant add money to their roster! If the team can sign a .280-.300 type with 25HR or more power to a 5yr/LgMin deal than great ~ trade Salty yesterday! Problem is, I dont think they can...

Now we are back to “where is the value of trading Salty for a guy making good money just to have to trade another prospect for a 1B probably making good money”… They would have added lots of payroll and lost great trading chips just to add a starter when they could have avoided the whole problem by sticking to their plan of NOT TRADING SALTY and instead using the other prospects to bring in a starter… There are starters to be had everywhere and not as many teams as you would expect out looking for them. LA, SD, Atl, NYM and maybe Sea are the only teams we really hear about as honestly looking for a starter yet the names are flooding the rumor mills as to who is available… It would not take Salty to bring someone in if there is little to no competition on said starter.

And like Bizfitch said ~ this is stupid anyway!!! It goes back to what I was saying in all my posts on here saying the reasons there are problems when Salty is brought up ~ because everyone feels the need to try to force trades involving him… Its pointless ~ maybe it makes sense to you or anyone else, but the Braves have flat out said they are not going to do it… If anyone really wants to tell someone all the reasons it makes so much sense to them, then maybe they should contact the Braves and tell them instead. Why must we listen to all the “well, if you think about it this way it does infact make sense” theories when what we think doesn’t matter anyway! The only thing that really matters can be boiled down to three things the team has said itself:
1) THE BRAVES DON’T WANT TO TRADE HIM!
2) THE BRAVES WILL NOT ADD PAYROLL!
3) THE BRAVES NEED SALTY RIGHT NOW!

Side note, Griffey only makes something like 3M the rest of this year, 6M in 08 and a 4M buyout in 09… The rest is deferred until 2021-2023. (I believe those are the numbers, if not they are really close…) It isn’t worth Cincy trading him unless they get a huge return they just cant pass up…

[Tim]

Buerlebro I also because Salty could bring a better pitcher than Jennings.

But I wouldn't mind giving Reyes a long good chance at that open rotation spot.

Davies is a mental case and needs help.

But yeah I kinda agree that the Braves will hang onto Salty unless someone offers up an Ian Snell type pitcher which I don't see happening.

[buehrlebro]

Well if that's the case then the Braves fans will just have to get used to not making the playoffs. Sorry, a back end rotation of Carlyle and Reyes isn't going to cut it. Not now, and probably not next year either, unless Davies can magically fix his control problem and Reyes doesn't need an adjustment period. Looking at his first two starts, he does.

[Tim]

The Braves don't need Kyle Davies.

Smoltz is pitching next year and James has gotten back to pitching like he did last year and Hudson is back to pitching like he did in Oakland.

Smoltz
Hudson
James
Reyes
Harrison

Matt Harrison was the Braves #1 pitching prospect coming into this year and his fastball and changeup are good enough to win in the majors right now but he is working on his curveball and should be ready next year to try and grab a rotation spot next spring.

[Tim]

Oh by the way once Reyes gets used to the hitters he is gonna be untouchable. He has 4 above average pitches.

[darkstar1661]

B.Bro,

Did you just say that the Braves aren’t making the playoffs unless they trade Salty for a starter? Oh boy…

[buehrlebro]

If both Reyes and Harrison and Reyes work out, more power to the Braves. But it isn't going to help them compete this year, maybe not next year. I just think they're that one piece away from being a real contender and they can afford to give up their best trading chip.

[buehrlebro]

I didn't say they won't make the playoffs if they don't trade Salty for a starter, but I did say they should at least use their other prospects to get one. They're competing against three of the best teams in the NL- Dodgers, Padres, Mets, all of whom have a strong rotation. I just don't see the Braves surprising anyone while playing it conservative.

[Tim]

I think the Braves have to focus on next year. Sure they are right there on the Mets heels but the fact they are just goes to show how bad the Mets have been this year. The Braves have had a ton of pitching problems this year and they are using the bullpen WAY too much. Ever regular outta the pen already has made 40 appearances and closer to 50. They are on pace to have 4 or 5 relievers make 90 appearances which is WAY too much.

[darkstar1661]

Well, it only really takes passing the Mets to make it to the playoffs... Then they could also just pass one of SD/LA and make it (since one would be the division winner)... And lets not forget that most of LA/SD/Arz/Col games will be against each other for the rest of the year so you can expect them to start knocking eachother out of competition a bit...

... truth is, I like their position Right Now even without making a change. If the offense starts coming around (as it should with Jones hitting now) then all they really have to do is play as well as they have been and they can either pass NY or let the West teams beat each other out of the Playoffs. I think the biggest threat to their hopes comes in Chi and whether or not their pitching will hold up down the stretch…

And who ever said they wouldnt trade one o their prospects for a pitcher ~ its just Salty that doesnt make any sense!

[buehrlebro]

They should probably use Reyes and Davies out of the pen a few times to save the arms and to pick and choose who they get their innings against. Use Carlyle and Ledezma as starters. That is, if and when they decide to throw in the towel.

If Delgado and Beltran start to heat up, the Mets are dangerous. Plus, depending if they get Pedro and Moises back in form, they're probably going to take the division.

[buehrlebro]

If Delgado and Beltran can heat up, like they look like they are, and adding Moises and maybe Pedro won't help the Braves' case. To save the pen and pick and choose whom Jo-Jo and Davies get their innings against, it wouldn't be a bad idea to use them in the bullpen sometimes.

[plh903]

"hey plh heres a crazy thought stop makin wise ass comments becuz the Braves anve played both McCann and Salty at first this year. but the Braves need pitching, but Arroyo wouldnt do becuase hes too old"

Hysterical. Stop posting drunk.

Here's some more free advice: any time you use the conjunction "but" twice in a row your sentence automatically equals gibberish.

Anyway, I understand the idea couldn't be implemented immediately, however having league-averagish first base play along with fresh elite catching seems like a good trade-off to me.

Trading Salty for Arroyo is absurd; I'm surprised it has warranted this much discussion.

I doubt Arroyo will even be worth $25M in '09 and '10 (PECOTA's retarded MORP stat even agrees) so it would be like trying to give someone money for a $300K house with a $450K mortgage.

[darkstar1661]

Yeah, hear you on the Mets offense, but the thing is ~ their pitching probably wont keep this up either. I find it hard to believe Maine and LeDuque will finish with a Sub-3ERA and just as hard time believing Sosa and Perez will stay under 4… 1 might do it, shoot 2 even could ~ but all 4?

Add to it the fact that they only have 3 real good relievers on the club and you have a team which should expect to start giving up some more runs pretty soon…

Like I said, I really think NY isn’t going to be getting much better themselves and that means Atl can stay within striking distance. Add to it the NL-W beating eachother up and we have ourselves looking pretty close the rest of the way IMO

[darkstar1661]

“we have ourselves looking pretty close the rest of the way IMO”

Oh my, after defending them making stupid trades so much the last couple weeks, I seem to now be mistyping things which makes it sound like I actually like the freaking team… :\

[buehrlebro]

Thing is, I think the Mets are going to be very aggressive at the deadline and get some arms. The have Milledge as there blue chip and probably won't hold him back if Moises comes back healthy. That could well be the difference this season.

[buehrlebro]

I think we've milked this one for all it's worth. The deadline is upon us, and there will be many a rumor, no matter how ridiculous, in the near future.

[Tim]

I'm a Braves fan and I am still pissed and confused about the Ledezma trade. That was just a downright STUPID ass trade.

[kc_baumer]

would this work:

salty + thorman
for
arroyo + hatteberg + gosling + valentin + 3 million in 09 + 4 million in 2010.

braves get:
- the arm they "need"
- a 1b who has actually performed this year
- a reliever who i guess is good (someone from the reds can chime in anytime to tell me the relative merits of gosling)
- the monetary relief they need for the later years of arroyo's deal
- a backup catcher to replace salty

reds get:
- the catcher of the future that can actually hit (all offense to david ross)
- a 1b spect who hasn't hit this year but has only had 500 ABs at AAA and might develop even if votto is going to be there in a year or two

[bravesbeast]

Hey, Kc_baumer, about that proposal, how about umm HELL NO. How the hell do you validate the braves losing their two best options at first base and not even getting a young impactful player in return. How about you quit postin all together.

[Muggerd]

The Reds wouldnt have much interest in thorman. Votto is going to be up as soon as a space is available for him. So once hatteberg or conine is traded the word is Votto is here. Its not a year or two scenario.

[kc_baumer]

for someone that is convinced yunel escobar is the next pujols, i would recommend you not throw rocks. you know what they say about glass houses and stones.

anyway, the braves do lose one quality option at first base in salty. they also thorman, who has been one of the worst everyday players in all of baseball. He has a .635 OPS. That is so ungodly bad, it is a minor miracle he hasn't been demoted yet. The worst part about Thorman is that his only success in the minors came when he had already played at least 50 games against the competetition the previous year. He experiences spikes in his OPS during his first "full" seasons, but that type of spike rarely comes at the ML level. After his awe-inspiring .705 OPS showing last year in 120 at bats, I'm amazed Thorman was the starting 1B this year. He has also showed real signs of turning it around. Since July 1, Thorman is 1-20 with 12 strikeouts. I mean, who wouldn't want a guy that has never posted an OPS above 750 unless he is returning to a level in the minors? All hail the THORMAN!!!!!!

Of course, you do receive Scott Hatteberg in the deal, whose OPS is currently 877. Think about that for a minute. Scott Hatteberg, who in your mind is worse than THORMAN THE MAGNIFICENT, has 240 point lead in OPS. He is pimp-slapping your guy all over the place, and is doing so with relative ease.

Now, onto moving Salty. I am in full agreement that the Braves do not have to move Salty. They can stick him at 1B and receive league average production. I am suggesting that they can get a quality pitcher at a reduced rate for 3 years (4 mill, 6.5 mill, 7 mill) in the 08 seasons and onward is a pretty damn good deal. Add in the fact that Hatteberg has an option at 1.85 million for next year, and your total payroll commitment to those two players is 6 million. You are getting a quality, rubber armed SP and a high OBP and above average OPS 1B for 6 million. So, when you lose Jones and Wickman, you will still have your 1-4 as Smoltz, Hudson, James, Arroyo. That is pretty damn impressive. Hell, you'll still have McCann's productoin, you wont Yunel Pujols, and you add a productive starter for the middle of your rotation. Explain how this is a bad deal again, other than what Schuerholz has said he wants (and likely won't get).

While I'm at it, explain to me what happens if the Braves trade Salty for a young impact pitcher (say Ian Snell for poops and giggles). Are they going to continue THORMAN: THE GOD OF SUCK out there every day? I can guarantee you that the Braves will not win anything of not this year if they are running Thorman out there every day to play 1B.

[Muggerd]

The Reds would be happy to get rid of Valentin though.

[kc_baumer]

thanks muggard, i was wondering how long it would be until votto came up. just for good ole bravesjackass, we can pull thorman the god of thunder and suck out of the trade proposal.

[Teetz]

People need to write more novels when posting. There's nothing I like more than rambling. Short and sweet guys, short and sweet.

[Torchy]

God I hate having to explain this here but here goes...

1) Thorman is out of options. He can't be sent down.

2) Harrison will be a good starter but he is not the top of the rotation guy some are claiming him to be. The most likely scenereo is that he becomes a #3 with only slightly better numbers than James. Sorry to burst your bubble.

3) Thorman or Salty is being traded. Both won't work unless there is a proven every day 1B coming in return. Bobby likes Franco but I doubt the Braves will be willing to play him every day for even a week. His legs might fall off.

4) Davies and Jo-Jo will never both be in the pen. Both have options and both are starters. Davies is only still up because there is worry that one of four starters will breakdown at any one time.

5) Ledezma is not that good. He gets shelled in relief and will be destroyed as a starter. He may turn this around, but there are better options in the pen to start than him right now.

6) For the last time, there is money to spend this year. Further, there is money to spend next year too but it's less. I think about $10m this year and about $3-4m next year.

Happy?

[bravesbeast]

Well Kc_bauman, congratulations, you have successfully shown you are even more ignorant that previously thought. I think you are getting your posters crossed up. I have never ever said anything about escobar being another pujols, so good job looking like an idiot on that one.

The other thing you cannot seem to ponder is that thorman is 25. He is in his first full year in the bigs, and salty is 22, in his first full year in the bigs. We are not going to give away a decade in age just to get better this year, it is just not going to happen. THE BRAVES ARE NOT TRADING THE FUTURE FOR JUST THIS YEAR. Get that through your heads, and then pursue some good ideas that make sense.

[Aduncaroo]

Unless they are getting a young cheap better than average pitcher that is cheap for at LEAST 3 years...maybe with the exception of Willis, Salty is going nowhere. Why is that so damn hard to get through to people?

I do think they should explore the Snell option if the Pirates are open to it. Thats pretty much EXACTLY what JS is looking for...and SNELL would me MUCH more valuable to the Braves than Salty is.

[DonCoburleone]

I believe Arroyo has 3 years and roughly $30mil left after this season right? So, if I were Atlanta, I would say Salty for Arroyo + $8-$12mil of his remaining $30million contract... Even ask for a reliever thrown in if you can get it. But Bronson Arroyo for 3 years, $18-$20mil? I'd take that in a heartbeat. This is the perfect #3 starter we've been looking for and there is no way we find one on the open market for less than $7mil per season. Plus, Salty is a CATCHER. He's not comfortable at 1B and it shows. He's hitting less than .240 as a first baseman (over .330 as a catcher plus 3 of his 4 homers). Salty for a bargain priced Arroyo? I say why the he!! not?

[DonCoburleone]

I mean, please everyone, lets stop OVER-VALUING every freakin' prospect that has 100 ML at bats. Get Arroyo, he's a guaranteed 650+ innings, 40 wins, and an ERA around 4 over the next 3 years (not even including what he can do for us this year). MAKE THE DEAL!

[kc_baumer]

sorry bravesbeast, but here are some of your trade proposals:

lillibridge/escobar/prado/orr are going to net harang, vazquez, or lowry.

or, as you put it "our middle infield depth can net us __________"

there is also the option of signing cheap players, like eric byrnes right? except byrnes will likely command 8-10 million per.

scott thorman is not adjusting at all to the bigs. there is no power surge, there is really nothing at all to be excited about. there is a future AAAA player sitting in atlanta right now. orr and thorman, fantastic.

you have an aging team. you have to either choose to win this year with a healthy (maybe getting hot) andruw, smoltz, hudson, wickman, chipper or you can try and wait to rebuild for about 2-3 years down the line. you are not going to be able replace andruw very easily, especially with the raises that are coming due this offseason.

[ink-stained scribe]

darkstar --

O'Brien at the AJC says he's heard that from the front office that Liberty will boost payroll if needed this year. So all that talk about an unbreakable cap is SO Time-Warner.

Yeah, I'd do Arroyo for Salty and maybe give Diaz or Bryan Pena some time at 1B. And hope Julio's discovered the fountain of youth.

[Thundersticks]

People, please. Let's get real here. JS is not going to trade Salty for Arroyo. The only way Salty gets traded is for a Snell/Gorzellany type SP, which I doubt very seriously even happens. I forsee us trading a package featuring Escobar/Lillibridge for a Morris/Arroyo type SP.

The problem with trading Salty is that you fill one hole - albeit our biggest hole - but create another one. We don't necessarily "need" a stud SP. A solid, experienced, reasonably-priced innings-eater is what we need. I would love nothing more than for us to go out and get Vazquez or Oswalt but its not happening. Contreras would be OK, but he is likely our last option.

Make no mistake, JS will get us a SP. The question is who and what is the cost. But JS will not simply trade the future just for the now.

[darkstar1661]

Ahhhh….

KC Bauman, why must you continue to try to force a trade where it just A) doesn’t make sense, B) isn’t very attractive?

Listen, it’s obvious you really want the Reds to get Salty ~ unfortunately they just don’t match up well or will have to give up something other than Arroyo to get him… That doesn’t mean “add more unattractive pieces to the deal” ~ it means “start over with a different deal completely”! Arroyo isn’t as wanted around the league as you seem to think, and he isn’t Young, Cheap or a Difference Maker like the Braves want for Salty ~ get it?

And it has NOTHING to do with overvaluing prospects ~ it has everything to do with Salty for Arroyo being a flat out stupid trade when more can be had for him!

DonCoburleone,

A guy like Arroyo can be had for a cheaper prospect return… Salty can get more return… it just doesn’t make sense!

Torchy,

Where do you get that the Braves have 10m to spend this year and 3-4 next? The current team is costing $87.291M and I see no record of any money coming back from Hampton. Adding about 10M to that would mean the team was actually willing to spend 100ish on the club this year?

Ink,

See above… Maybe they will boost Payroll a bit, but I can’t imagine 10M more is the “boost” they were talking about…

[davidmp2]

Long time reader, haven't contributed. I'm a big Reds fan and I think the deal makes sense on both sides.

If the Reds added Hatteberg or Conine to the deal you have to think the Braves would pull the trigger. Hatteberg and Conine give you veteran first baseman on one year deals to plug into the void left by Salty. Additionally, Arroyo is a legit starter who at 240 innings last season.

If the Braves want a legitimate shot at October they have to add starting pitching. The offense can afford to take the hit. After getting swept by the Reds in which the Braves gave up 21 runs its time to look at what you can get to make a run.

What makes people think these days that a legit number two isn't worth a frontline prospect? Pitching is at its highest premium while position players even the more average position players can make a difference in this era.

Holding out for a Willis or Snell would be disasterous for the Braves. These guys aren't even being aggressivley shopped and therefore a deal is unlikely. By the way, there is nothing to suggest that Willis will bounce back either as his ERA, WHIP, BAA, HR and BB totals have steadily inclined over the last three seasons while Ks, IPs and Ws have sunk.

The worst thing the Braves can do is follow the Mets example with Milledge. The Mets wouldn't give him up and where did they end up last year? Where's his stock now?

[Torchy]

darkstar,

Read your DOB. Hampton's contract has been insured every year (as most big contracts are). This year he won't pitch a game for the Braves and certainly qualifies for most of the money back. Normally, that money comes later and goes into other expenditures. This year JS has been given some of it to play with. $10m is about 70% of Hampton's contract and about the upper most limit on what will come back from the insurance. Do i think that the Braves will spend it all for the push? Of course not. However, money is not the deciding factor in the short run. Contracts that extend beyond one year are a whole nother can of worms.

[darkstar1661]

Huh, I thought Hamptons contract was the one where insurance companies started the whole "you've got to be kidding me ~ 8 years?" thing... I didnt think they could get it insured for over 5 years ~ which has now been cut to what, like 3 years on most new contracts?

Well, if they are getting 10 back then I guess it does make a bit of a difference ~ still not enough for Arroyo though so it’s moot regarding this conversation atleast. Even if you figure they have enough for the rest of this years salary on him, the replacement at 1st would cost you another couple Mil and you quickly find yourself in a big hole…

Still don’t see why “Escobar + ???” wouldn’t be enough to get him though, its not like they are asking for 2 parts of a momentarily contending club for a couple relievers with spotty histories and questionable arm strength…

[JayTheRed]

I personally would not like to see Arroyo leave the Reds. We have him under contract til 2011. One thing I looked at this season versus last is that Arroyo has gotten very bad run support in his starts.

Now Arroyo did have about 4 or 5 bad starts in a row this year but his least 4 or 5 have been pretty good. His record is the way it is because the Reds bullpen blew a lot of games for him. I think Arroyo makes a pretty good 2nd starter or 3rd starter at worst.

I do not know why everyone is so high on Salty he really has not proven himself at all in the majors yet. This reminds me of Homer Bailey for the Reds. In the minors sure he has some great stats but so far in the majors he has done nothing special. Not to say that either Salty or Bailey won't become top tier players but I think if the Reds do trade Arroyo they will only do so with a good package coming back the Reds way.

[Torchy]

For god's sake, quit whining and Google the thing. I found this with 30 seconds of work.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-braves-hampton&prov=ap&type=lgns

As for the number, that's an informed guess. The Braves will not release such data (and why should they?) so all i can go on is standard player contract insurance. As you pointed out this contract is special, so who knows the real figure. This is why I gave a maximum, not an exact number.

[darkstar1661]

Well, didn’t realize I was whining when I said “oh, didn’t know that; well since that’s the case…”, but ok dude…

What I have found was information saying last years covered money was somewhere in the range of 1/2 his 13.5M. If that holds true this year (and more importantly in 08) then they should have about 7.5ish to play with each year… At least that takes care of Hudsons raise, so maybe Atl should be hoping Hampton spends 08 on his continual rehab as well…

On a plus-note for the Braves; it looks like Colorado is responsible for the 6M buyout on the 2009 option. Not sure why, but that’s what Cots says