"Pretty Good" Chance Of Red Sox Getting Dye?

UPDATE: Edes says it would be Manny Delcarmen or Justin Masterson as the pitcher.

UPDATE 2: Now Edes is saying that the Red Sox are not close to a deal for Dye.  They are currently refusing to give up Delcarmen or Masterson.

Things are heating up...Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe has a Major League source indicating that the Red Sox have a "pretty good" chance of completing a trade for Jermaine Dye.

The White Sox would apparently receive Wily Mo Pena and a pitching prospect other than Jon Lester or Clay Buccholz.  That could still leave Michael Bowden, Daniel Bard, Bryce Cox, or Craig Hansen.  All four have struggled this year but still have plenty of promise.  Justin Masterson is another intriguing name, but he's pitched well in four starts at Double A.

Comments

[Kramerica Industries]

If they trade Michael Bowden, Daniel Bard or Masterson i wont be happy about it. Everyone else is fair game and would a good move for both sides

[beauhoopman]

Maybe Theo will mistakenly say Bucholz and Williams will yell "DEAL!" before Theo has a chance to recant.

[Nick from Washington Heights]

If the White Sox don't get Bard, Masterson or Bowden, then I don't understand why they do this trade. Why not hold onto Dye and let him walk and get a first round pick? Is Wily Mo still that intriguing?

[Bosox4416]

I would love this trade. Bowden sounds like fair value for him..

Friend in Chicago just said he heard it was a done deal on the radio? Any truth??

[Validlyte]

Kramerica is right ... No Bowden/Bard/Masterson ... Dye would be a nice pick up but finding a way to have him play 5 days a week will be problematic unless Ortiz is worse off then they let on ...

[integr96]

the only reason the white sox dont want the draft picks is because they dont want to go into a full rebuild. which i dont understand because the indians, tigers, and royals have much better and younger talent that is major league ready. the white sox would be better off pulling a fire sale and being good in 2 or 3 years. mark my words, the white sox will still suck next year.

[Kramerica Industries]

he is very intriguing Nick. And Hansen or Edgar Martinez or Cox would be a great adds in a deal. All three could be a very good set up man for the white sox next year.........Hansen can be great he needs a change of scenery.

[Bosox4416]

Do doubt about it! Great point Integr

[Ripwa]

Theo sucks so much.

[Kramerica Industries]

radio reports seem to always be pre-mature.....they are right once and a great while

[tsizzle]

Nick:
I don't think the selling point will be Pena, but instead whoever the pitching prospect is. I see WMP as a throw in, so Boston can get rid of him.

[Gugs87]

As a Red Sox fan, I can't like this trade any less. Wily Mo has tremendous upside, something that Dye doesn't. Dye also strikes me as the kind of player who will complain very vocally if he doesn't get the playing time he wants (rather like Jay Payton did), and frankly we don't need another outfielder. Crisp and Drew have struggled, yes, but both have shown signs of turning it around of late.

Personally, I'd recommend the following course of action for the Red Sox: Let Lowell go this offseason, move Youkilis back to third base, teach Pena how to play first, spend money earmarked for A-Rod on more pitching.

[Nick from Washington Heights]

he's intriguing and so is Hansen, but both of their values as prospects seem at a low point. The ChiSox couldn't boost Dye's price any further. The Red Sox will get a two month rental from a very good player (at least recently) and then a first-round draft pick for two players they've given up on. Seems like a great deal for them and that the White Sox could have gotten more.

Of course, we don't know who the players are just yet.

[Kramerica Industries]

Dye helps the shot at winning the World Series this year......and thats what i want. You have all your outfielders and Ortiz all signed atleast through 08 along with Ortiz.Not to mention Ellsbury, Moss and Murphy in AAA. Theo doesnt need wily mo...

[Validlyte]

Boston.com reporting Delcarmen or Masterson

[Guitar Hero]

So where exactly is Dye going to play?

[Kramerica Industries]

i doubt Delcarmen unless they have a deal in place for a reliever......

[tsizzle]

integr96:
The Indians might go down as one of the most overrated teams ever. Maybe that have some young position players, but a lot of people fail to realize that the White Sox are deep in pitching. That's the difference between teams like the Nationals, Royals, Pirates, Reds, etc. They have pitching, and plenty of it.

Once you have pitching, you can use that, or deal it to fill position holes. Pitching is a great commodity to have...the White Sox will be back next year.

[Kramerica Industries]

yes tsizzle the wite sox bulpen scares the crap out of me.

[Not Joe Morgan]

As a Yankees fan, I'd be really happy to see Pena out of Boston. If (massive if) he puts it together, he'd be an absolute monster, especially in Fenway. Its worth noting he's still only 25.

[opes]

"Personally, I'd recommend the following course of action for the Red Sox: Let Lowell go this offseason, move Youkilis back to third base, teach Pena how to play first, spend money earmarked for A-Rod on more pitching."

I agree. Dye had a great '06, but its obvious hes on the downward slide.

[Mr_Punch]

UGGGG...normally I wouldn't mind giving up an prospect for a bat like Dye, but this is trouble. He has no place to play. Yeah, JD Drew sucks, but he is getting 15 mil a year and is a much better defender than Dye (God he looks old covering ground in RF). I can see this leading to serious conflict on the team which is exactly what should be avoided on a first place club, bound for the play offs.

They only way I'm happy about this (and boy is this a double edged sword) is if Papi is more hurt than they have been letting on, and may need a DL stint. Best case scenario, JD Drew hits the DL for the rest of the year.

I hope the sox aren't dealing DelCarmen unless they have another reliever lined up.

[bobo]

I don't believe it. Delcarmen is nice, but WMP is worthless.

No way Williams suddenly goes from demanding the world in trades to taking crap that doesn't compare to what he'd get with the draft picks.

[integr96]

tsizzle... the indians have great pitching in the minors as well. chuck lofgren, adam miller, aaron laffey (who will be startin this coming week) jeremy sowers, etc... so the indians dont have a need to even trade off pitching for position players because they already have position players. therefore, they wont have to trade off their pitching. And the white sox still suck!!

[Kramerica Industries]

well BOBO Hansen was a first round pick who was rushed to the majors. I thin k he will figure it out but i think he needs another organization

[Blutarski]

If the White Sox don't get Masterson there's no point.

Delcarmen and Pena are nothing special at all.

[bobo]

I would take 2 picks over Hansen or Delcarmen in a second. I guess WMP has a little value based on his potential, but I can't see Chicago as a fit for him. I guess the money Dye is owed over the rest of the season is a consideration too, but I can't believe they can't do better than this.

What would the Mets equivalent be? Pelfrey and Ben Johnson?

[bobo]

Agree on Masterson. Make it Delcarmen and Masterson and you've got a deal. No reason whatsoever to take WMP. Maybe he can be spun for something else, but to who? KC wanted him for some reason, maybe Dotel & Dye to Boston, Delcarmen and Masterson to Chicago, WMP and one of Chicago's lesser pitching prospects to KC?

[yallsmokincrack]

integr:

Lay off the Injun-aid, buddy. What's happened to Westbrook, Sowers, and Lee? Byrd is a junkballer who is old and CC has one foot out the door. Your team doesn't have the pitching.

The Sox have the prospects to deal and the money to spend, unlike Cleveland who after I believe 93 wins in 2005 "upgraded" their team with Paul Byrd, Andy Marte, and Jason Michaels. KW will make a few deals, get younger in some areas, and then take another shot at it. The Sox bullpen has been terrible but they have a lot of good arms and they can't all suck as bad as they have. Beware, because the Sox may be gone this year but 2-3 good trades and they are right back in the mix.

[Cold Golden Falstaff]

Please no Willy Mo Pena on the Sox.

Kenny Williams will have really gotten fleeced if he has to take on Pena who can't hit, can't field and can't really do anything except hit homers.

[yallsmokincrack]

Blutarski:

I agree. The Sox need to get a legitimate prospect here or there is no point. The team can not be rebuilt out of the bullpen; KW needs to either add a young position player who can actually wear a glove or add another SP to make someone else available for a young position player. Delcarmen is nice but this team isn't a contender right now so we don't need him. Pena only makes sense as a DH if Thome is dumped for prospects, but he has a NTC and I doubt he's going anywhere.

[ozziethesaint]

Yea Thome won't waive his NTC if it means leaving the midwest. He loves playing near home.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

"Edes says it would be Manny Delcarmen or Justin Masterson as the pitcher."

I love lines like that. As if they are remotely similar players.

[Cold Golden Falstaff]

Initial shock over, I'd do this deal if it were Crisp as the outfielder going to the ChiSox. And of course if Kenny Williams threw in another player for Jacoby Ellsbury.

I hope that Kenny's smarter than to take the false potential of Willy Mo off Boston's hands.

[Ripwa]

You guys do realize that Dye is a rental that has an OPS+ of 95, right? You want MDC and Masterson for a below average player thats under contract for 3 more monthes? The only reason Texas got what they did was b/c Teix is under contract next year to. Ty Wigginton has an OPS+ of 104, is 4 years younger, and is much more valuable defensively. All he got was Dan Wheeler. But you think Dye is worth Pena and a legit prospect?

[ArodSucksAtLife]

"Initial shock over, I'd do this deal if it were Crisp as the outfielder going to the ChiSox. And of course if Kenny Williams threw in another player for Jacoby Ellsbury."

Really? You would? I'm shocked.

"You guys do realize that Dye is a rental that has an OPS+ of 95, right? You want MDC and Masterson for a below average player thats under contract for 3 more monthes?"

He's picked up since the ASB, and its 2 2008 draft picks. But I still dont like the deal.

I think with the 5 days a week playing time that they are apparently guaranteeing Dye, Wily Mo would do better.

[bobo]

Arod - you'd be gaining 2 picks by trading for Dye.

So MDC and Masterson for Dye and 2 picks?

Yep.

[yallsmokincrack]

Ripwa:

Yes. KW doesn't have to sell Dye. All he has to do is let him play out the season and offer arbitration, becuase if he does he'll get two draft picks including a first rounder. Whoever wants Dye's services this year has to make the Sox an offer that makes sense to the Sox; Chicago really doesn't care at all about Boston's playoff hopes. If Boston or any other team can offer the Sox a package worth more than two high draft picks, then that team can have Dye. Simple as that.

[Cold Golden Falstaff]

Seems everyone's forgotten about Dye's MVP season last year.

Looks like both sides are unhappy about this one.

If you guys really think Willy Mo 5 days a week is better, keep him and the Pale Hose can deal Dye elsewhere for the young outfielder without Pena's many flaws that they need.

[JakeOD21]

Some people need to get their facts straight here. The Sox won't trade 2 solid young pitchers to get Dye. They'll deal either Delcarmen OR Masterson, not both. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care which they give up. It's not like dealing either will dry up their resources of young pitching.

Wily Mo is about as useful to the Red Sox in 2007 as a bucket of warm piss. He's really the last guy on the team I want up in a key spot.

The guy took his fielding lessons from Frankenstein. Whoever said they should try him at 1st is forgetting that they tried that when he was on a rehab assgnment in Pawtucket last year and it was a total disaster. Eventually he could become a good player, but with him it's all been about speculation. He's gotta go.

Anyway, Dye seems like a strong addition. People have complained that the team needs more offense, so here you go. Let Francona figure out how to get him in the order. He's a master of dealing with people, and I think he can make it work. Dye doesn't seem like a malcontented personality like Jay Payton was, but I could be wrong.

[Ripwa]

Draft picks are basically nothing. I hate how people over value those things. Pena and Masterson is MUCH better than 2 draft picks.

[integr96]

so as not to be ignorant... i looked at the white sox starting lineup for next year and I have a salary right around $100M and that is with maybe 1 or 2 positions to fill. SO I will give them credit for that. However the indians have about $68M in salary and have the same number of holes to fill. Looking at the White Sox AAA rotation vs. the Indians AAA rotation... sorry to say, but the Indians have better options.

[Mr_Punch]

People really overate those 2 pics. They are a nice little ad-on, but jeez. Go look back at first rounds of drafts from past years and see how many players became stars. See how many even make it to the majors.

I really don't make this trade unless Papi or Drew are hurt. If they are not, I can see this creating disharmony in the clubhouse. Not good.

I'm wary of trading Masterson. His numbers have been phenomenal since leaving Lancaster (best hitters park in the minors).

[Robert (Justice Is The Best)]

I wonder if David Ortiz isn't hurt more than the Red Sox are letting on. Where are they going to play Dye? Platoon him with JD Drew. I can't imagine that would go over very well with Drew.

Of course, it could mean that Mike Lowell is getting moved.

[SoxFanatic456]

The only way I see the Red Sox dealing Delcarmen is if we have a deal in place to acquire someone like Dotel.

[tsizzle]

integr96:
That's because our best pitching prospects (Gonzalez and Egbert) are in AA.

[Not Joe Morgan]

Just looking at 2004 and 2005, Boston has picked up Pedroia, Buchholz, Hansen, Bowden, Lowrie, Ellsbury and Egan in the 1st, supplemental and 2nd rounds. Draft picks certainly are valuable if the team is drafting well and Boston seems to be doing just that.

[Jason]

I'm wondering if they put Papi on the DL to get his knee fixed if they pick up Dye. That gives them room to put Dye or Manny at DH and they probably don't get crushed offensively if Dye can keep up what he's been doing lately.

If the Sox deal Delcarmen do they bring up Hansen? He's been dealing his last 15 or so innings in Pawtucket - his stats look pretty nasty lately.

[yallsmokincrack]

I would argue that two draft picks are just as valuable as at least Masterson + Pena. I wouldn't say they are as valuable as Masterson and Delcarmen though, especially in this year's market. The reason the picks are so valuable is because teams are moving away from dealing prospects as liberally as in the past, at least highly touted ones. The Texeira deal today was a pretty big thing, certainly uncharacteristic of baseball nowadays. So, yeah the two picks might not pan out, but as long as those picks have high upside and they spend a year in someone's system without getting hurt, all of the sudden they became very valuable trading chips.

Another thing to note is that if Delcarmen and Pena is the package, that would work out very well for the Sox. The Dodgers have been interested in Dotel and Hu's name has come up. Certainly Delcarmen is a better long term option, and if KW could pull off this deal and then ship Delcarmen to LAD for Hu, and then send Pena to a team like TB or KC who that could afford to put a project like Pena in the DH spot and pick up a decent A ball prospect, I think KW would have done very well overall.

[Mr_Punch]

No way do they bring up Hansen.

[Mr_Punch]

I doubt this happens, BUT...if the Red Sox trade Delcarmen and don't replace him via trade, I think they will bring up Devern Hansack for the pen, then when Schilling comes back in a few days, they decide between Lester, Gabbard, and Hansack for one rotation spot and one bullpen spot.

[Blutarski]

#1. The Red Sox and their fans are going to love Dye. He's hitting again and will crush the ball in Fenway. He has a great attitude and is a clutch player, obviously. If he's healthy, he can play well for a few more years also.

#2. The Red Sox have been trying to dump WMP for awhile with very little interest. The White Sox will give him every chance next year because he comes cheap. He won't be very good but neither will the Sox because they need a complete rebuilding.

#3. Delcarmen is ok but what could is that going to do the White Sox ? Helping them finish 4th next year ? They need prospects to rebuild. Well, Sox fans know that. When will Kenny Williams?

[Cold Golden Falstaff]

Blutarski:

The White Sox don't need to do a complete rebuilding. They have Buehrle, Garland and Vazquez as the front of the pitching staff, and Thome, Konerko as the power hitters with A.J. and Fields backing them up.

What the White Sox need is a young outfielder who can hit and a replacement SS for Uribe.

To paraphraze "JakeOD21", Wily Mo is about as useful to the White Sox in 2008 as a bucket of warm piss. He's really the last guy on the team I want to rebuild the Sox outfield...

[tsizzle]

Blutarski:
They do not need to rebuild. They didn't re-sign Buehrle to rebuild...you have to be kidding me. They have holes in two outfield positions, and SS. If we get Delcarmen in this trade, we realistically only need one more reliever to solidify our bullpen. One of the starters will be traded, so the outfield spots can be filled either through that trade, or with the money (or that money could go towards that last bullpen guy). The White Sox are not in as bad of a situation as people think.

[Stan2219]

If ortiz is hurt more than we speculate, with an 8 game lead, with the production dye would bring us, lets treat ortiz like we did josh beckett. With dye we can put ortiz on the DL and not skip a beat.

[Mr_Punch]

"I would argue that two draft picks are just as valuable as at least Masterson + Pena"

Masterson alone is worth more than 2 draft pics. He is developing quickly into a top prospect.

Those two pics could esily be misses. Any GM would take an attractive prospect over two pics. The kid could develop into a very good ML pitcher and is a mutch safer bet to be a more attractive trading chip than 2 draft pics. Draft pics have value, but not that much. Just because players are drafted high and are healthy doesnt mean teams will trade good players for them. There would be more trades if that were the case. More often than not, first round draft pics never achieve potential, stay in the same farm system for years until they become a throw in in some bigger trade. Yes, GMs like prospects, but they prefer prospects who have shown real promise in professional baseball to non-pros who often cannot compete at the professional level.

Pena? well thats just a matter of perspective. My feeling is that he is a cheap .260 BA and 35 HRs. To me that is worth a lot more than a draft pic, but I know a lot of people think he is much less than I do.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

Remember, these situations are fluid, but while the White Sox remain hopeful of persuading the Sox to make a deal for outfielder Jermaine Dye, the price remains too high for Boston. Chicago would take Wily Mo Pena but want either Manny Delcarmen or Justin Masterson. The Red Sox will not part with either for a rent-a-player like Dye, who is eligible for free agency after the season. There is a decent chance that the Red Sox will not make a substantive deal before tomorrow's 4 p.m. deadline, but stay tuned.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

[Blutarski]

tsizzle:

If you are a White Sox fan then you know that the chances of them finishing ahead of Detroit, Cleveland and Minnesota next year are completely nil.

You would also know that the Sox have about the worst minor league system in baseball - awful scouting, international scouting, drafting and player development. So, they are as bad off as people think.

Additionally, on the Major league level, they have an atrocious bullpen, and a bad offense that is old, slow and expensive.

The White Sox will not see the playoffs for a minimum of 5 years !

If they increased next year's payroll to $ 150 mil. they still couldn't make the playoffs.

The 3 teams in their division are doing everything right and are years ahead of the Sox.

THEY NEED A COMPLETE REBUILDING. But, they'll get WMP instead.

Hey, I'll always be grateful for 2005 so don't take this as complaining. But, be realistic the Sox aren't going anywhere.

The best free agent they'll pick up will be Rowand.

Add him to Thome (if healthy) and Konerko and they might have 3 good offensive players next year.

[lfrivera]

Maybe Theo will give us all an early xmas present and get rid of JD Drew to make room for Dye. Think about it, what do you want another bat if it can't be put in the same lineup with Ortiz, Manny, Lowell, Youk...

[ArodSucksAtLife]

J.D. Drew is a better player.

[yallsmokincrack]

Mr Punch:

Masterson has appeared in 4 games above A ball after getting hit pretty hard for such an awesome prospect. His K numbers were pretty bad this year too until his promotion, but could a lot of that be due to the fact that hitters in Double A are unfamiliar with him? His BB numbers have lowered a ton in 4 starts, but careers are not made in 4 AA starts.

The fact is this guy, more likely than not, will be a bust. Most prospects are, despite the fact that when they are traded people go nuts about giving up sure-fire future HOFers. Believe me, if this trade goes through, Dye is let walk, and Boston drafts two players next year, all the Red Sox fans will be talking about how great these new prospects are and how they have similar or higher ceilings than Masterson. In fact, the more I think about it, if the Sox could get Delcarmen and spin him off for a position player I'd rather have him. The Sox need a SS worth his salt.

[ozziethesaint]

This deal feeds right into the stories about overvaluing prospects. Where both Theo and Stoneman both admitted they hurt their respective teams chances last year by overvaluing their prospects and not making the moves needed to win last year. Now the Yanks are getting back into the race, and Theo is trying to make the big move to win the East. Dye is a proven performer that is really heating up finally.

[Mr_Punch]

Mastersons numbers in A ball were in the best hitters park in all of baseball (Lancaster). That park is a well known joke. His walk numbers are inflated by trying not to give up the HR ball. I've read praise about him on many different sites for surviving that park. I will even admit that we have two prospects (1B and OF) ranked way to high with inflated numbers from hitting in Lancaster. Regular batters turn into Hank Aaron in that park.

I'm not saying he definitely won't be a bust, but his AA numbers (as limited as they are) are a much better indicator of his talent. I assure you that thw White Sox are pushing for the kid.

My real argument is that a prospect who has shown real promise in pro ball is more valuable to a GM than draft pics for college players, who so often never develop at all.

[yallsmokincrack]

Blutarski:

I can't stand when people crap all over someone's drafting and player development and then talk about the freaking Twins. Before spouting off about how bad the Sox are at this, take a look at their recent drafts. Take a look at all those wonderful international signings they've had over the last ten plus years. Guess what? The White Sox have outdrafted, outspent, and out-scouted the Twins for a while now. If you really want to look into it you'll see that is true, because I already have. Carlos Lee, Maggs Ordonez, Paul Konerko, Jon Garland, Mark Buehrle, Joe Crede... the Sox do this better than Minny does. Josh Fields will likely be the next one to add to the list. But go ahead and salivate over the likes of Jason Tyner and Kubel and all these other guys the Twins have, but don't forget that even though they picked up Santana as a Rule-5 they gave up on David Ortiz and never spent a meaningful dime to take a playoff contender to the World Series at any time this decade.

[JakeOD21]

I agree with ozziethesaint. The Red Sox have drafted so well in recent years that they've built up a tremendous base of young talent. The Sox are right now beginning to be that "$100 million player development machine" that Theo envisioned a few years back. At some point, the club has to tap into that to help them out now.

Is Justin Masterson going to be a star? Who the hell knows. I do know that if they trade him and "Warm Piss" Pena to bring in Dye they'll still have Buchholz, Lester, Bowden, Cox, Bard, Doubront, Martinez, Kris Johnson and many others. This seems like a no-brainer for Boston. I guess the price for these guys really does go down alot with 25 hours left.

[Mr_Punch]

"UPDATE 2: Now Edes is saying that the Red Sox are not close to a deal for Dye. They are currently refusing to give up Delcarmen or Masterson."

I say, "Good." Unless Papi or Drew were headed to the DL, then adding Dye would cause instability in the club house. Why trade a good reliever or solid prospect for that. I would try to ad Dotel or Gagne, and lets go to the playoffs.

[Mr_Punch]

Could Masterson get Red Sox Gagne? I'd do that in a second. He would help them more than Dye would.

[tsizzle]

According to Dave van Dyck of the Trib, talks have stalled.

He also says that the White Sox probably would have turned around and traded WMP elsewhere.

[yallsmokincrack]

"My real argument is that a prospect who has shown real promise in pro ball is more valuable to a GM than draft pics for college players, who so often never develop at all."

I agree in theory, but I wouldn't call making it through A ball a great accomplishment or anything. If Masterson had "Mastered" Double A we'd be talking about an entirely different thing here, but he hasn't. Most high picks don't fizzle out until at least Double A unless there is a serious injury. The reasons the first 100 or so players in the draft are taken as highly as they are is because those 100 or so players are typically the best players around at that time and are already capable of surviving in A ball.

[Mr_Punch]

"If Masterson had "Mastered" Double A" hahaha...nice work. I will agree with that. If Masterson had mastered AA he would be much more valuable, but at that point he wouldn't even be in the discussion (tho he apparently isn't even in them now, as the Red Sox seemed to have backed off.)

[wakefield]

If the Sox are so anxious on giving up MDC or Masterson, why not send them both along with Lowell to the Rockies for Helton? The general census seems to be that we are not going to sign Lowell back, so even if he is tearing it up, he is a lost cause after tomorrow. We won't need him when we, god forbid, sign A-Hole next year.So give me something good like Helton or at least Adam Dunn and leave Dye and his attitude in Chi-town. The Rockies are pushing in the west and I would think they would like a strong hitter like Lowell and bullpen help. Maybe It's just me.

[opes]

"Maybe Theo will give us all an early xmas present and get rid of JD Drew to make room for Dye. Think about it, what do you want another bat if it can't be put in the same lineup with Ortiz, Manny, Lowell, Youk..."

As much as I disliked the idea of JD Drew, and really happy about his great season- there is no one stupid enough out there that will take a banged up, overhyped, and underproductive RF for 70mil/5yr. Except Theo.
Granted Theo has made more brilliant moves than bad ones, but Lugo and Drew are huge busts so far.

[Blutarski]

yall - really are smokin crack-

Those players you mentioned the Sox drafting/acquiring were from the last millenium dude ! Yeah, they drafted Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura and Jack McDowell too.

It's 2007 man. The last 7 drafts are complete busts. Tell me how you like Borchard, Broadway, McCulloch, Poreda, Anderson etc. Wake up, the Sox are THE WORST drafting team in baseball. Draft picks in their hands are a waste.

[darkstar1661]

Couple things,

WMP is a throw away ~ the deal would be pretty much Delcarman for Dye. Gammons was saying yesterday that the feeling is not a single team in baseball would offer Pena arbitration for 08 meaning he is as much a rental as Dye…

Blutarski is dead-on with his rundown of the ChiSox. This team doesn’t have a future, and will be paying more than 35M-45M alone to their pitching staff which is doing little more than holding back the “prospects” that everyone raves about being difference makers in the long run. Buehrle was a good extenstion, but Contreras is trash, they should be selling high on Vasquez before he starts pitching like his normal self and Garland is extremely League Average. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is nothing special about it either ~ Jon is pretty much Chicagos Jake Westbrook, people just like to act as though he’s something more though. As far as hitters ~ its Paully&Thome(if healthy) and a ton of Average-At-Best types or huge question marks with nothing in the minors to help!

As far as the Indians:
The have NO ONE to replace on the field after this year! Every FA on our team has an option for 08, and none of them are for a dramatic increase over this years pay. They could field this exact team for the exact amount of money in 08 if they chose.

Their pitching is SO STRONG! You guys are kidding yourself saying otherwise! CC will be here in 08 and it isn’t a guarantee he will be gone in 09 either. After that we have Westbrook as our 3-4th guy and he’s easily as good as Garland even if he did struggle a bit early this year. Byrd as our 5th Starter if we pick his option up? How many teams have a 5th starter as strong as that? And its still an unknown if Lee can figure out his problems but if he doesn’t we have plenty of kids!

As far as the Kids? Well, any Sox fan should already know Carmona and Sowers (although Sowers did struggle early this year but went back to Buffalo and is pitching extremely well in his last couple starts once again ~ he’s a control specialist and had mechanical problems which he seems to have straightened out) Then after that there is Miller, Lofgren, Laffey, Scott Lewis and more in the minors. If you don’t know who those guys are, you will soon enough! The Sox might have some nice arms, but Cleveland is really just as strong while having a complete top-lineup and depth for multiple positions in the minors as well…

Lastly, yallsmokincrack ~ you do realize that half the guys you give credit to the Sox for drafting weren’t actually drafted by the Sox right? Also, you are holding an argument that a team spending less than 60M-ish a year to compete (Min) is not that hot in the FO? Youre kidding me right? Every team wants to model themselves off the Twins, A’s, Indians, etc ~ not the Sox who spent a ton to build a winner then watched it decay before their very eyes without doing a thing about it… Honestly, how you can think the Sox have a shot in 08 or probably even in 09 without completely retooling is beyond me…

[beauhoopman]

"If you really want to look into it you'll see that is true, because I already have. Carlos Lee, Maggs Ordonez, Paul Konerko, Jon Garland, Mark Buehrle, Joe Crede"

Ok, first of all, Paul Konerko was drafted by the Dodgers, and Garland by the Cubs. The other draft picks are from the mid to late 1990's. Joe Borchard, Kris Honel, Lance Broadway, Kyle McCullough, Aaron Poreda, Brian Anderson, Royce Ring. With the exception of Josh Fields, its a joke (and Poreda will be). And its not just first round picks, its the first 5 rounds. Since 2000, the only legitimate threats the Sox have drafted are Chris Young, Fields, Gio Gonzalez, and maybe Ryan Sweeney.

[buehrlebro]

The Sox haven't had a high draft pick in years, which should be noted. But they do have tons of pitching depth, more than most teams, it's just a matter of who will step up. Also, the thing that upsets me most about this topic is Dye's so called "attitude" when he's one of the best guys in baseball. Gammons said so himself yesterday, and all he wants is playing time while he still has some production left in him. You guys really are judgeing before you even see the guy take an interview, how classless.

[SoxWin]

Supposedly now the White Sox are working on a 2-3 year extension for Dye, as reported by ESPN, so reliability of that report is of course an issue.

[beauhoopman]

Dye would be a competent DH. I know I will probably get blasted for saying this, but I have watched most Sox games this year, and its clear he is just hurting. Perhaps he will always be hurting and is old, but hes still got power, he just needs health.

[SoxWin]

beauhoopman, I agree it was obvious he was injured before, but I think he looks healthy now and he is showing it thus far in the 2nd half.

[darkstar1661]

Just out of curiosity ~ why are the ChiSox fans so giddy over Dye anyway? I mean the guy has never been upper-tier in anyway (outside of last year I guess…) and has really been unwanted by most teams throughout his career...

He a consistent .280/.330 type who watches his SLG bounce around like a slinky. Last year was a fluke, everyone knows that ~ and if Chi (or whoever trades for him) gets somewhere in the range of his 05 numbers of .275/.330/.515 then he might be an ok extension if it wasn’t a ton of money. If they get his Oak numbers which were in the .265/.330/.465 range though then they would have been better off bring up a kid who might include something other than just that line at the plate…

And really, what is up with Chicago anyway? Are they really trying to do what they can to keep this sinking ship together for the next 3 or 4 years? Wow, I think I would rather be a KC fan than s Southsider at this point…

[beauhoopman]

Well, I think that a basic assumptions behind the White Sox refusing to unload is 1) they have good SP 2) the indians dont project well long-term 3) lets hope the tigers' plane crashes. two of those three are reasonable.

[beauhoopman]

Well, I think that a basic assumptions behind the White Sox refusing to unload are 1) they have good SP 2) the indians dont project well long-term 3) lets hope the tigers' plane crashes. two of those three are reasonable.

[beauhoopman]

I fixed the grammatical error.

[darkstar1661]

Beauhoopman, you kidding me right?

“basic assumptions behind the White Sox refusing to unload are…”
1) they have good SP
~~~ Key word here is GOOD, not great… And the current rotation is actually hurting them longterm because the kids will not get a chance to play. They will have a hard time dealing Contreras because, well duh, and having a 4 man locked up with Danks as the 5th means not a single kid gets a shot in 08 ~ postponing the advantage of having them…

Add to it the holes all over the field while having like 100M already locked up means this team is not looking good at all...

2) the indians dont project well long-term
~~~ HAHAHA, where the heck did you hear that? The Indians project better than any team in the AL for the next 3-4 years ~ this exact team will be together next year if they want it (well minus Nixon which is a possitive) and even 2009 will see only Blake, Byrd, Borowski and of course possibly CC leaving. That’s only 4 holes to fill in the next 2 offseasons and there are kids in the minors who need a shot in the Rotation, BP and for the OF. Oh, and as far as 2010, you can add Betancourt, Michaels and Dellucci as the only guys not signed…

The depth of the Indians is extreme, everyone of any importantce (outside CC) is locked up till 2011 and they honestly have a much better shot of staying at the top than probably anyone in baseball…

3) lets hope the tigers' plane crashes.
~~~ Det is actually the opposite… They will have a bunch of holes to fill soon as guys like Ordonez, Pudge, Sheffield and Rogers walk ~ plus their starters are starting to implode a bit (see Bonderman with the 10.8ERA in the 1st INN). They will be just as strong next year and probably in 09 as well, but it wont last as long because their minor league depth isn’t as extreme as some of the holes they will see soon…

“two of those three are reasonable”
~~~ unfortunately not a single one makes any sense…

[tdogg]

"Wow, I think I would rather be a KC fan than s Southsider at this point…"

Because your clueless.

[lfrivera]

"As much as I disliked the idea of JD Drew, and really happy about his great season- there is no one stupid enough out there that will take a banged up, overhyped, and underproductive RF for 70mil/5yr. Except Theo.
Granted Theo has made more brilliant moves than bad ones, but Lugo and Drew are huge busts so far."

...Remember Renteria...we're still paying for that one!

[tdogg]

Clev projects out every year. Every year the White Sox pick 3rd, 4th 5th. blah blah blah.

If the White Sox starting pitching and depth is only "good" with the other rotations out there, almost every rotation sucks.

[darkstar1661]

Uh TDogg, please add the contracts of Contreras, Beuhrle, Vasquez, Garland, Konerko, Thome and whatever Dye is being locked up for (if its true)

then remind us of the fact that Chi doesnt have a proven player for 2B, SS & 2/3 the OF, a injury-prone DH, a youngster at 3rd, a league average C, bullpen questions and no place to use the starters they are hyping in the minors

then tell me how the huge current payroll with so many holes to fill = a competition team in the AL-C? Oh, and as a reminder ~ they are currently fighting for 4th place with KC who has much better hitting prospects in their system in a band-box stadium...

[darkstar1661]

Oh and please also tell me how Cleveland having THIS TEAM locked up for the next 3 years (minus CC) AND top prospects about ready to take over in the rotation, means they will not be able to compete in 08 or whatever…

[tdogg]

darkstarr arent you the SAME person who said they wouldn't win in 05?

[tdogg]

The point is Cleveland has has this so called primed nucleus for a little while now and hasnt won jack sh*t.

I wouldn't be surprised if they sit at home again this year.

For as much gloom as is predicted for the Sox. We don't know final rosters for next year, they will have one of the best rotations in the division as a starting point, a division even in this miserable season they still have an above .500 record against.

[darkstar1661]

no ~ I wasnt the one who said they wouldnt win in 05 (although 05 was a fluke year because each pitcher and most hitters had career years ~ no one can deny that...)

And Cleveland? Well, Cleveland was expected to be something special in 05 and beyond ~ They have gone onto having one of the best 3 offenses in the AL the last 3 years, a top-rotation and only lost last year because of bad luck in the Pen (last years problem was injuries to guys early which overworked the rest of the pen, they then imploded). Oh and they have done so with most of their players being in their first few in the league where its of course questionable if everything will go as planned.

But lets think about what each did in the last couple years... Cleveland ~ 60-45 in 07, 78-84 in 06, 93-69 in 05; that’s 231-198 despite the horrible bullpen problems of 06… The ChiSox on the other hand have a 237-192 record over that time… thats 6 more wins than the Tribe over the last 2.5 years while spending millions more and having a much, much older nucleolus…

Cleveland having this exact same team (which is currently tied for 3rd most Wins in majors) next year is so much better than the PaleHose who have like 80-90M already locked up for their aging vets, holes everywhere and pitching prospects they cant use; there is no getting around that…

Oh, and just to remind you of this as well:
Indians locked up for 2008 who are currently over 30years of age: 7
(Blake 33, Dellucci 33, Michaels 31, Byrd 36, Borowski 36, Fultz 33, Betancourt 32)
… Those are the easily replaced players on the team…

Lastly, The ChiSox rotation is on Par with that of Cleveland, Detroit and Minnesota ~ but not really better than any of them… All the teams are really close in the starting pitching area at this point; difference is that Chi is locked up paying Contreras and Vasquez a ton of money which is hurting them because the kids have more potential then those two could probably produce…

Point really is, get used to seeing Sizemore, Peralta, V-Mart, Pronk, Barfield, Garko, Gutierrez, Carmona, Westbrook, Lee (if he straightens himself out), and a host of top-pitching prospects for years to come ~ with the possibility of CC also being around as well… If Chicago thinks they will be able to buy a team each year with so much already invested in deteriorating parts then they will be greatly disappointed…

[tdogg]

lol. I notice you left out a few years. Nevertheless the same blah blah blah as always. Wake me when that ring is on the finger.......

And stop acting like the White Sox payroll rivals the NYY and BSox. Gimme a freaking break.

Im sorry I didnt realize Vasquez sucks.

Buy a team every year. You crack me up....

[darkstar1661]

Left out a few years? Cleveland wasnt predicted to really be much until 2005 ~ their late run in 04 was ahead of schedule and not expected at all... So yeah, 05-NOW is the proper numbers to use ~ oh and it was a 6game advantage for the ChiSox incase you forgot!

Palehose contracts for 08?
Thome 14M
Konerko 12M
Vasquez 11.5M
Garland 12M
Buehrle 14M
Contreras 10M
Dye 7M (if resigned like rumored ~ he has had 1M increases each year so I took that…)
AJ 5.5M
Toby Hall 1.75M
MacDougal 2.65M
… I count 90.4M for that group of 10 Players
~ So what, they would have about 10-15M to sign a SS, CF, LF and couple BP arms if they were trying to stay under the 108M they spent this year… (with rookies at SP#5, BP, 3B & 2B)

but typical PaleHose fan anyway, always flapping the lip with nothing actually being said... Please come back when you actually have a point!
(please note, I know not all Sox fans are like this ~ but there is a good chunk of them that are and this guy fits their stereotype perfectly.)

[tdogg]

Like what? Not once have I said the Sox will win the central next year.

For what its worth half of Thome's salary is paid by Phi.

And there is nothing to respond to. Listening is a skill. List away as much as you want. I merely said you don't know for sure the Sox roster next year and you don't. Chances are KW makes changes and I'll reserve judgement until then.

The only one flapping, while haven't even won so much as the division is you.

Im sorry you disagree with my assessment of the Tribe.

Personally I like Detroit's prospects much better.

There are many things you've spouted that are not accurate but I honestly don't feel like writing an essay.

[darkstar1661]

That’s kind of the point, you’re talking trash without saying anything…

“Clev projects out every year. Every year the White Sox pick 3rd, 4th 5th. blah blah blah”

“darkstarr arent you the SAME person who said they wouldn't win in 05?”

“The point is Cleveland has has this so called primed nucleus for a little while now and hasnt won jack sh*t.”

“I wouldn't be surprised if they sit at home again this year.”

See, this is where we start talking about the two teams ~ but you seem to be incapable of doing so. I say Cleveland’s record is only 6Wins off the Sox and you reply “left years off didn’t you, blah blah blah” as if I had… I say the Tribes current team (which is tied for 3rd in W) is staying together for the next couple years ~ you say “they don’t have a ring yet, blah blah blah” as if that means anything... I say Chicago cant buy a championship every year” and you say “we don’t spend THAT much, Blah blah blah” as if its true, I say the team has tons of holes with little money to fill them and you say “we don’t know, blah blah blah” as if they are sitting pretty… Oh and then in classic style you say “there are errors in your posts but I don’t feel like pointing them out” ~ huh? Yeah right…

Sure, maybe they trade their prospects to fill out the roster, but that only keeps them treading water for so long. Or they do what I was saying and start to trade these guys for cheaper prospect alternatives now ~ but you don’t like that either right? Instead you just feel they will somehow compete (since that’s what the conversation is about ~ if they will compete next year) despite the hole they have dug themselves into… I can understand if you don’t like the situation they are in, but to try to dismiss another teams situation because of it just makes you look foolish…

Whatever though, talking to you is like talking to one of those smart-ass-remark boxes anyway, you can’t say anything that makes sense can you?

[darkstar1661]

Oh and just because you seem to think it somehow makes you smart or something ~ want to count the Money Philly is paying for Thome? Fine:

Palehose contracts for 08?
Thome 14M/*7M (*7Mil from Philly)
Konerko 12M
Vasquez 11.5M
Garland 12M
Buehrle 14M
Contreras 10M
Dye 7M (if resigned like rumored ~ he has had 1M increases each year so I took that…)
AJ 5.5M
Toby Hall 1.75M
MacDougal 2.65M
… I count 90.4M for that group of 10 Players
*-7Mil from Philly = 83.4M*

They spent 108 this year (including the Philly money) so we then drop it by 7M and we have 101M…

So edited with new numbers:
“~ So what, they would have about 10-15M to sign a SS, CF, LF and couple BP arms if they were trying to stay under the *101M they spent *OUT OF THEIR POCKET* this year… (with rookies at SP#5, BP, 3B & 2B)”

Do you even think before you speak?

[tdogg]

You are really one frustrated Clev fan huh?

I will say this one last time. I will reserve judgement until the roster is shaped in the offseason.

There is absolutely nothing to be jealous or frustrated about involving the Cleveland Indians.

My point on predictions is simply they have been wrong just about every recent year.

And no I choose not to write an essay. It has little to do with no content available. It simply has to do with you are obviously bias (most of your past posts reflect that) and really dont care to open your mind.

Feel as you must the end of 07 will play out as will 08 and we will see.

[Cold Golden Falstaff]

darkstar

While your revised salary numbers are correct, I don't believe the White Sox have any interest in re-signing Dye. It's just a ploy to drive the price up. Ifthe Sox don't move him tomorrow, he'll be gone by Sept 1. I'd take $7M off your projected payroll.

Also, there's no way the Sox take all 4 starters contracts into 2008, someone is going to be dealt. Contreras is gone as soon as Kenny can find a taker, the rest of the season the Sox will try to get him on track in the hopes of dealing him in the offseason.

Also, possibly 1 of Garland or Vazquez colud be dealt for a top end package, filling some of the holes you mention and opening up 2-3 starting spots for the Sox pitching prospects and freeing up payroll.

The Sox are trying to reload, Braves-style and despite popular opinion already have some good players to do it with, like Josh Fields at 3B and Ryan Sweeney in LF, with guys like Jerry Owens (CF) and Danny Richar (2B) being given a shot to win a job with their play the rest of the year.

As a realist, I thing the best us Sox fans can hope for is a remote shot at a wild card next year, and more likely .500 ball.

The Tigers and Indians look to remain very good the next few seasons, but I'm expecting the Twins to fall off a bit, especially due to Santana possibly leaving by the end of next season.

[darkstar1661]

hehehe, bias? Nah, just cant stand listening to Hose fans try to put down others anytime anyone points out their very real situation... Its so amazing how so many will still talk about a last place team with holes everywhere as though its one or two pieces from being something really special...

So yeah, you want to try to knock the Indians because the team that is very much in the thick of things will somehow never do anything in your eyes, feel free ~ but unless you can give anything other than "well they dont have a ring yet" then why should anyone respect it? But don’t be surprised when you get facts in return and these are the facts ~ facts is that Cle is sitting pretty whether you personally like the team or not... fact is that the team has won only 6 games fewer than the ChiSox the last 2.5 years even though you are acting like they haven’t even been on the same planet… fact is the Sox do have a ton committed money-wise with holes everywhere… Like it or not, all facts.

And just so maybe you understand, if anyone points out any of those facts ~ “blah, blah, blah” isn’t a response…

But like I said, get a point or don’t bother…

[darkstar1661]

Hey again Falstaff,

Thanks for again being one of what seems to be very few Sox fans that can actually say something logical and give a real response!

Yeah, the updated Salary projection is identical to the old one, just lowed each by 7M to call it “out of pocket” for TDogg who somehow felt it made a difference I guess…

I also know it could very well be a ploy by the Sox to get more for Dye, but I also know KW is on record saying that he didn’t really want to lose him so who knows whats going on there…

[tdogg]

Cold,

I agree with much of what you said. 1 of the starters will prob be moved in the offseason.

The bullpen is cheap so can be rebuilt. Odds are it can not implode as badly again.

It really comes down to what they are able to secure in the OF (Owens blows). The Sox can afford to trade 1 of the young arms for ML talent if they feel like he can build a complete team.

The team that scares the hell out of me is the Tigers. Right blend of youth and vets along with solid management.

Either way its doubtbul they cash in completely. The climate in Chicago (Cubland) makes that impossible to do.

[tdogg]

"Yeah, the updated Salary projection is identical to the old one, just lowed each by 7M to call it “out of pocket” for TDogg who somehow felt it made a difference I guess"

Dude I was just trying to help you stay accurate. Its really not that big of a deal. Do you always imagine this great conflict in your mind????

All I can offer is this. When I say blah blah blah. It simply means I have heard these arguments in 1 form of another for years about the White Sox, yet save this year they have managed to have 1 of the best w/l records and a championship since 2000.

[quintjs]

I can understand MDC being unavailable, they will need him this year, but why Masterson?

He would be the 3rd best SP the Red Sox have in the minors now (Buchholz 1, Bowden 2) And they have 4young starters now (Beckett, Matsuzaka, Gabbard, Lester) they could probably bring Wakefield and Schilling back fpr 2008 at will, and the two other SP prospects are more advanced, they will bring more SP prospects up in the coming years, how is Masterson a big loss??

With Papi's Knees, Manny's Knees, Drew's everything (inc Bat) I would think as long as it didn't cost pieces you will need this year, or Buchholz, this would be a easy deal for the RS. Masterson? Dye along will get you a draft pick for next season anyway. I guess the problem being if he goes into a platoon role, that reduces his value, may impact draft rating.

[Alan Smith]

I went to high school with Masterson, and I know that many teams for four years kept telling him that they would use a top 10 pick to select him, but he didn't go until the second round. However, knowing the kinds of pitches he throws and the speed at which he can throw them, I think that the AA numbers are a more accurate reflection of his abilities.

[yallsmokincrack]

Beauhoopman and everyone else who keeps ragging on the Sox in favor of the Twins:

Look at history. Look at the two organizations over the last 15 years or so. The Sox have been better as far as drafting and developing impact players. Just stop blah blahing and freaking look at the facts. Konerko was indeed drafted by the Dodgers and Garland by the Cubs, but the Sox still traded for them when they were basically prospects, although PK did have some service time. Look at the types of players the Twins have developed and acquired. The best they've done in the last 17 years is Radke, Hunter, Mauer, Morneau, and Santana. The Sox on the other hand have found more difference makers, and really, isn't that the point of the whole thing? To find players that are cornerstones and not role players that can be picked up cheaply through free agency or via minor league contracts in ST? The Twins get all this love from what I think are self-hating Sox fans who don't want to see the facts. Sure, the Twins may have developed more players that have reached the big leagues, but the Bartletts and Guzmans and Mienkiewiczs of the world don't win championships unless they are surrounded with lots and lots of talent, which is exactly what the Twins have been largely devoid of over recent years. Must I remind you that Prior is looking like a bust right now, and the only reason the Twins took Mauer in that draft was because they knew they weren't going to be able to sign Prior. They had the first overall pick and Mauer fell into their lap do to signability issues. The Sox haven't had this luxury.

You can rag on the Sox drafting all you want but for God's sakes take one minute and actually look at the Twins drafts. I'm not saying the Sox are great at drafting and developing players, but they are indeed better than that than the Twins are. You look at the payroll situation in Minny and the number of losing seasons they've had in the last 15 years or so and you'd actually expect more superstar players to come from that type of enviornment because the Twins have the ability to waste spots on the 25 man roster for development whereas contending teams do not, but the truth is the Twins don't produce superstar players often at all.

Also, stop whining about recent drafts. The Sox generally trade their prospects for major league players, which is something Minny hardly ever does. For many of Chicago's prospects, it doesn't matter if they are busts or not because they no longer are in the organization. Case in point, of the 2005 World Championship starting squad (excluding the bench and bullpen), 6 players (Everett, Konerko, Uribe, Podsednik, Garland, Garcia) were brought in by trading players who were developed within the organization, 5 more (Thomas, Crede, Rowand, Buehrle, McCarthy) were developed within the organization, and only 4 (El Duque, Contreras via Loaiza, Pierzynski, Dye) were the result of FA signings or trades involving FA signings. If the Sox operated like the Twins we wouldn't have had those players; we'd instead have failed to reach the playoffs while still having control of Mike Morse, Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo, Jon Rauch, Gary Majewski, Mike Cameron, Aaron Miles, Carlos Lee, and Matt Karchner. Notice the only two players that would really be an improvement anywhere on the current roster are Cameron, who was traded for Konerko, Lee, who was traded to free up money, and Rauch, who was traded because he ditched the team and was publicly called out by his GM.