The Yankees' Next Third Baseman

Melky for Crede is a silly idea.

I should say, Brett Gardner and a prospect for Crede, and that Boras won this battle. He was just too well prepared, I mean, he had this planned out years ago.

1. Damon is not a good fit for the White Sox.

2. Crede's injury won't hamper him next season. All is going very well and he's already been cleared for baseball activity. I wouldn't be surprised to see him top 2006 with 2008 being his contract year and being a Boras client.

My father used to say "son, there's an ass for every seat."

So, I guess the question is... Who's going to be the ass?

I don't know how you can say miggy is out of it especially when Willis had a crappy season which entail drops his trade value and the Marlins can't keep both with arbitration costs. The yankees just need to package a young arm with melky to keep the Marlins happy. Santana would be nice, but his price would be way too high to trade for one year. And i'm not convinced the this past year was a fluke off season for him...maybe the league has caught up to him.

yanks144:

Do you know what Miggy would cost in terms of prospects?

If I were the Marlins, the minimum, MINIMUM would be:

1. Hughes or Chamberlain
2. Kennedy
3. Tabata

That's at the very least. The Marlins will ask for a #1 starter, #3-#5 starter, and a good solid young OF.

Cashman won't pay that. At least, I hope not.

The farm system is deep, but not deep enough to withstand losing one of two aces and our best hitting prospect.

any all inclusive list also should have troy glaus in it. its obviously not likely, but there were some lesser rumors of them aquiring him at the trade deadline. not out of hte question.

I wish all of the Mets starters would get caught up to by the rest of the league to the tune of 219 innings, 3.33, 235/52 K/BB, and a 1.07 whip. Santana sucks why would anybody want him.

The more I think about it the more I think the Twins should just lock up Santana. Him/Garza/Liriano would be friggin filthy. Trade your other young arms for guys to build around Mauer and morneau.

Is everyone convinced they won't still bid on A-Rod?

I think Billy Beane will be happy to trade Eric Chavez to the Yankees - what would be the price? I think he'd be happy with Betemit and Tabata.

"Is everyone convinced they won't still bid on A-Rod?"

like i said in the other thread, i dont see the market for a-rod being that great. i think the red sox lock up lowell quickly and i dont see the cubs puttingo out the much with an ownership change coming (but if they wanted to steal mariano rivera that would be ok with this sox fan) and then its pretty much just the angels and maybe dodgers. and i dont see the angels as all that willing to shell out the big bucks. i think a slow market will bring the yankees back into this thing.

Yes, but that was after they won a championship. Now they just suck. If I can see this, so can the GM. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but he just doesn't fit right now. If he was had for peanuts, maybe, but they Yankees would still have to have eat some dough. It isn't like their won't be room for an outfielder...but Damon is too old won't get the days of rest at DH with the White Sox.

I still think arod will be a yankee

with their relunctance to trade away prospects teams actually want (not horne or ian kennedy for miggy) they aren't really going to improve much more than betemit but thats a moot point since I think arod will be yankee

phil hughes for evan longoria

Funny that you mentioned Mike Lamb as a FA option for the Yankees. The Yankees acquired Lamb to be their 3d baseman shortly before they traded for A-Rod. After the A-Rod trade, Lamb was shipped off to Houston.

I knew this would happened. Boras always gets his way. He probably already has teams lined up to pay him what he wants.

It's obvious that the Yankees simply didn't want him enough to pay him the kind of contract that Arod would accept.

Looks like they're going to have to find their right handed power bat elsewhere.

Also, congratulations to the World Series Champions, the Boston Red Sox. A great team from top to bottom.

"HAHA!!! your insane. Phil Hughes will be a Yankee for LIFE."

He's a Red Sox fan who has thrown 72 innings in the major leagues, and HE is insane?

I can live with Crede for Damon IF IF IF IF Damon is playing LF and not CF, and the White Sox still sign Rowand or Hunter for CF. Even at his worst last year Damon had a .351 OBP, which is better than Podsednik, Erstad, or Owens is going to do as leadoff hitter.

Also, Yankees would have to eat some of his salary.

Chavez is not an option.

1) he's left-handed
2) he barely has any positive trade value
3) he's in steep decline
4) Beane gave him the big contract and won't give him away for nothing, which is about what he's worth

Does Damon make any sense for the Cardinals in LF?

White Sox get: Duncan, A. Reyes

Yankees get: Crede

Cardinals get: Damon (and a little Cash)

I see the Yanks getting Pedro Feliz to be honest.

Re: Crede. Not a horrible option, but I think you have to look at it like this:

They have Betemit. A RH platoon partner (Helms, Ensberg, etc.) is trivial to find, costing virtually nothing in terms of players or money.

A Betemit/Ensberg platoon is virtually guaranteed of producing more offensively than Crede. His defense doesn't help that much.

So no, I don't see them going after Crede, unless the Sox will make it worth it by taking some bad contracts (Giambi, Damon is an option too I guess).

"I see the Yanks getting Pedro Feliz to be honest."

Won't happen. Yanks value OBP above all else and Feliz is horrific at getting on base.

Phillips was a stopgap and Mientkiewicz was simply there to be a defensive fill in. They won't replace Rodriguez with a sub-.300 OBP.

(And what's wrong with Cano's .365 and .353 OBPs the last two years? It doesn't matter if its AVG or isoD weighted as long as its staying safely above league average.)

(Its even more funny because he didn't give the toughest example to refute: Cabrera)

Hate to break this to you, but Duncan is pretty much without value (.241/.323./.389 at Scranton). His legacy will simply be the last of the overhyped, under-talented Yankees "prospects".

(And Colorado would trade Atkins because he's arbitration eligible in 2008, has a decent amount of trade value and they have a nice prospect coming up behind him in Ian Stewart.)

((Signing a bullpen doesn't work. I can't think of a single example of a team successfully rebuilding a pen via big money free agents.))

Ensberg is an awful hitter, constantly fidgeting with his swing. He'd wilt under the pressure of playing in New York, especially if he'd be the poor soul to replace A-Rod. Big shoes to fill...

I like the Crede deal possibilities, as the White Sox are surely OK dealing him with Fields' emergence.

But they need position players (SS/2B/LF/CF) a lot more than pitchers.

I'd go for Crede and a prospect (Anderson?) for Melky - to play LF. Damon's too expensive for the White Sox and they still would be players for CFs Torii Hunter and Aaron Rowand in FA.

"Phillips' OBP in the minors since 2004 was over .380, and he always exhibited a good eye."

It doesn't matter what his OBP was in the minors. He wasn't able to replicate that in the majors and he still is given chance after chance.

"Cano? He came up with the Yankees, and hit .340. What do you do, release him because he didn't walk much? There's a difference between playing a player who came up in your system who is otherwise exceeding all expections and signing Pedro (sub-300 OBP) Feliz. I can't believe that's not obvious."

And where are you pulling this argument that I'm trying to say they shouldn't play Cano. YOURE the one stating it. Hell, I'm not even the one stating that the Yanks shouldn't play people with low OBPs.

"And Mientikiewicz - he DOES walk. He DOES have a good OBP. What in the world are you talking about? The knock on Mientkiewicz was that he has no power. The positives were his batting eye, OBP, and his defense. Even in his poor, and injury-mired 2007, he still had a .349 OBP."

And his batting eye has regressed with age. He's nowhere near the levels he was at with Minnesota and had two sub-par seasons from 04-05. He had a resurgent year in 06, but that could just as easily have come from there not being anyone else around him in the Royals line-up. Yet the Yankees still felt it worth the risk to sign him due to his defensive upgrade.

Kind of mirrors the Feliz situation I recommended actually.

"I'm actually really confused. Did you just think of some of the weaker bats on the Yankees (in the case of Phillips and Mientkiewicz) and assume they have low OBPs? Looking up the stats isn't that difficult, is it?"

And I'm confused as well. Do you think Andy Phillips minor league numbers are worth mentioning or even proves a point? It really doesn't. Should the Yankees go sign Angel Berroa now because he killed minor league pitching this season?

Do you live in a vacuum where stats from four years ago matter today?

Please stop the Melky talk.

Since when was a .273/.327/.391 line desirable from the outfield position?

Crede playing elite level defense at 3B put up .283/.323/.506 before his back flared up.

So, the Yanks move an outfielder with a .718 OPS in return for a 3B with an OPS of .829 PLUS another prospect? How does that make sense for the White Sox?

Same goes with Damon. The guy put up a .747 OPS. Why would the Sox want to trade for his contract, arm, and poor defense.

Of course, this assumes that Crede can return to form from his back problems. There is a risk that he never plays again like he did in 06. But even if Crede does slip he should perform at least as well as either guy and is doing it at 3B rather than the OF.

BJ, I agree that Melky's offensive line last year was nothing impressive but you do have to consider his age. I know I've said this here before but 1,000 PAs and holding his own before his 23rd birthday is something to get excited about for the future.

"What are you talking about? How is he a low OBP guy but 15 points above league average the past two years? Do you even look at the stats?"

Look over his minor league stats and his first year in the league. He's a OBP guy thats dependant on batting average. He had an unreal .340 BA and that artificially inflated his OBP to above average heights. Once he comes back down to earth, and I find it unrealistic to expect him to produce at that level consistently for an extended period, his OBP will be around the .320-.340 range.

"His BABIP was 41st among qualifiers. You're losing me."

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=402

In 2006, Cano should have hit roughly .298/.321/.481, which is still a quality offensive season, but not anything like his actual line.

"Wait. You don't see the difference between a hypothetical .353 OBP and a .298 OBP? Seriously? Thats a massive, massive difference. Me saying that Feliz is worthless in no way translates to any statement about Cano. I promise you you're the only one reading this who doesn't comprehend that."

You're still not grasping it. You're saying that Feliz is worthless and that OBP is key to being on the Yankees would indicate that they would never have given a chance to Cano upon his minor league numbers and his rookie season where he had an OBP of .320.

"Look over his minor league stats and his first year in the league. He's a OBP guy thats dependant on batting average. He had an unreal .340 BA and that artificially inflated his OBP to above average heights. Once he comes back down to earth, and I find it unrealistic to expect him to produce at that level consistently for an extended period, his OBP will be around the .320-.340 range."

You're ignoring two things here:
1. Cano's isoD jumped from .023 in 2006 to .040 in the 1st half of 2007 to .053 in the 2nd half.
2. BABIP isn't as random for hitters as it is for pitchers. Some players (Jeter, Cabrera, Ichiro) have shown the ability to sustain well above average BABIPs year after year. No idea if Cano is one of these guys, but he's had two straight seasons above average.

"http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=402

In 2006, Cano should have hit roughly .298/.321/.481, which is still a quality offensive season, but not anything like his actual line."

I guarantee you if you write Normandin he'll immediately point out that Cano isn't the same player in 2007 that he was in 2006. That's the beauty of good, young players, they improve.

"You're still not grasping it. You're saying that Feliz is worthless and that OBP is key to being on the Yankees would indicate that they would never have given a chance to Cano upon his minor league numbers and his rookie season where he had an OBP of .320."

And you're not grasping that there's a big difference even between .298 and .320. More so when you consider that you're comparing a 32 year old 3B to a 22 year old 2B. And that Cano got called up with a .368 AAA OBP. Either way, do you think Cano would still have a job if he had a Feliz-esque sub .300 OBP? If you say no, you're coming around to what I'm saying.

(KAB, I agree with you on this one. I really think their solution is going to be Betemit with maybe a blah pickup to face the tough lefties.)

And I would love to see an Ensberg/Betemit platoon. Like someone else said, that can replicate Lowell's numbers quite easily.

The problem is, now you really have to re-sign Posada, and probably give him that 4th year, because you can't really survive a 150-200 OPS point drop at 2 positions.

I'd give Posada what he wants (within reason), Sign Ensberg or a similar RH-hitting 3B.

Then you only have the following problems:

1) Glut of lefty hitters: Giambi, Matsui, Damon - they'll probably look into trading Giambi and Damon, and including some money. $6-8M Giambi is pretty valuable. They can in effect buy some more prospects like Sanchez and Ohlendorf. If it's Damon, that's a little tougher because Matsui may not be able to play every day in LF, but that's a possibility too.

2) Who plays first? After losing ARod's offense, do they really want another Mientkiewicz/Phillips platoon? I don't think so. I'd go after Conor Jackson, as has been rumored. From his numbers thus far, he looks like a right-handed Mattingly with maybe a little less power.

3) Can you go with 3 youngsters in the rotation? I don't mean because of their uncertainty, because I'd surely take a Kennedy over some below average veteran - but they won't be able to throw 200 innings each. They'll either have to be shut down, or given time off, or they'll throw 5 innings a game and completely tax the bullpen. I think a 6-man rotation with Mussina could actually be a viable solution.

4) So what about the bullpen? Like every team, they need relievers. Resign Rivera, but then who else? Ohlendorf for sure, and they're stuck with Farnsworth (who still could be very good as a 3rd or 4th guy). They could resign Vizcaino or another FA. This is really the biggest question mark, but for what team is the pen NOT a question mark?

"Someone said the Yankees value OBP, and jza1218 said "actually that's a falsehood", giving counterexamples such as Cano, Phillips, and Mientkiewicz. Unless I'm missing something, you gave those players as evidence of why they should or may consider Feliz."

No. I gave them as examples that the Yankees are willing to take players who don't produce OBP-wise to complement the rest of their team.

"Phillips DOES exhibit a good eye, and a good OBP. His minor leaguer numbers are ENTIRELY relevant. Players don't often go from being walk machines in the minors to completely poor OBP-wise in the majors. Phillips wasn't impressive overall, but still had a league-average OBP. His minor league numbers are indicative of his approach at the plate, and his high walk rate is certainly a reason why he was given a chance in NY."

And he still had a .281 OBP in his first full season in the majors.

"And same with Mientkiewicz - declining numbers or not, his walk rate is still relatively high, and his OBP is above average. If his OBP was .310, there is much lower chance that the Yankees would have signed him. That, to me, means they value OBP."

And he had a .322 OBP just a year prior to their signing him.

"And about Cano - he was never really that highly thought of. He has far exceeded expectations, and is a legitimate .300 hitter (and you're right, NOT a legitimate .340 hitter). My point is they played him because they had few other options, and he performed and has continued to. His walk rate IS improving."

And even after his rookie season where his OBP was .320, they continued giving him the chance to improve. The point still remains, the Yankees continued to utilize him despite his OBP foibles.

"And there is a distinct difference between playing a youngster who is a very good hitter, with an improving walk rate, at a position where offense is harder to come by, than signing a player who is notorious for refusing to walk, consistently hits around .250, while playing a more offensive-minded position.

Using those players as justification for signing Feliz is just silly."

Honestly, there is no difference when you consider the reasoning behind the justification. You're making it seem like I'm trying to herald Feliz as being able to replace ARod when all Im trying to say is that I think the Yankees would take a chance on him because they DON'T really need the offensive help. They don't need another OBP guy or someone to be the next ARod.

I said they should get Feliz and then someone said that the team only likes OBP guys which I responded that players don't have to exhibit high OBP for the Yanks to play them.

SIMPLE AS THAT

Mark DeRosa would be my choice, cheap Scott Brosius type player. Probably shouldn't take a lot to get him. Instead of making a splash sign or trade at third maybe first base might be easier?

nrmax, I agree with you that the Twins should (and will) resign Santana. And they'll have easily the filthiest 1-2-3 in baseball over the next 5 years with Santana/Liriano/Garza. That is a dynasty waiting to happen with those 3.

Melky is trash. Noone's trading quality for a 4th OF, no matter how young he is.

"If I'm not mistaken Betemit was discarded for virtually nothing by the Braves and Dodgers. Ensberg was a throw away from the terrible Astros."

Yes, and if I am not mistaken, Lowell was given up on by the Marlins and dumped to Boston as a "take this guy and his contract off our hands and you got a deal" kind of thing. Betemit was traded for much needed relief help by the Braves, while he was being blocked by Chipper Jones. We have already discussed the fact Ned Colletti is an idiot, and the fact that he traded away Betemit in favor of a overpaid declining veteran goes nowhere towards proving the Betemit is not a good player.