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Johan Santana Rumors

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 10pm: It's been decided: the Yanks will put Hughes in their offer.  John Harper and Bill Madden feel that it was Brian Cashman who needed convincing.  Cabrera remains in the package, which will be rounded out by an additional pitching prospect.  This collection of youngsters apparently puts the Yankees in the lead for Santana. 

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 6pm: The Yankees' front office has been debating whether to surrender Phil Hughes in a trade for Santana.  Buster Olney reports that they're leaning toward doing it.  Melky Cabrera and one other prospect would be sent over as well.  The Yankees, as well as the Red Sox, are hedging their bets by talking to Billy Beane about Dan Haren at the same time.

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 11:25am: David Andriesen says the Mariners are not serious players on Santana.  However, Geoff Baker says the Ms have inquired but not made an offer for him.  However Baker talked to a friend of Santana's who indicated the ace wouldn't be jazzed signing a contract extension with a West Coast team.  U.S.S. Mariner recommends against a Santana acquisition.

FROM 11-30-07 at 8:45am:

I think it's time for a new Johan Santana thread.  We'll start today with a Peter Gammons report today on Mike & Mike In The Morning.  This comes from a trusted MLBTR reader.

Gammons favors the Yankees in the Santana derby, because he feels that Hank Steinbrenner could overrule Brian Cashman and include Phil Hughes in the deal.  Some feel that the Red Sox are just trying to pump up the price and would then turn to the A's to get Dan Haren.  Getting Haren instead of Santana may have the added benefit of not pissing off Josh Beckett about his salary.

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What a fun Hot Stove!

This is exactly what I've been saying all along. The Sox have no LEGIT interest in Santana - they don't NEED to give up what it'll take to get him because they already have Beckett as an ace. They're just doing whatever they can to build up the price....and it's going to work.

Can I take a moment to say that I'm actually tired of hearing about Johan Santana trade rumors, and I'm a huge Twins fan? It's been one after the other, day after day. One team appears to be in the lead, then a new contender emerges. Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Mets, Yankees... Now it sounds like the Twins might just want to hang onto him since no team is willing to part with its top prospects.

Well said Mr Punch... the Red Sox just won the World Series and their rotation looks great as is. Why on earth do they need Santana? Hey, if it will drive up the Yankees price, I'm all for it. But as a Twins fan, I want us to demand Cano and not Cabrera. I'm not buying into Melky Cabrera being a great player. He has name recognition because he plays in New York.

Love it Theo.
cheaper, younger, and under control for more years. Slot it Haren at 2 and still have the best rotation in baseball.

I have said it before that although Haren is not as good as Sanatana he will still demand alot to get him in a trade. the guy is making peanuts for the next 3 years and Beane is not going to just trade him for nothing. Yea the A's could trade him and get some nice prospects and and players but why wouldnt he just trade Blanton get some nice prospects as well, keep your true ACE who is mad cheap, and then if anything trade him in the last year of his deal when teams will still trade alot for him cause hes only making at most like 8million.

i say the yankees go get Haren, i rather surrender prospects for him instead of Santana, call me crazy but Santana is gunna get too pricey and i like Haren better.

I heard Peter Gammons today on Mike & Mike and was surprised to hear him call the third minor leaguer the Red Sox were offering in their latest rumored offer a “STUD.” Who the heck could it be when they’re saying Clay Buchholtz and Jacoby Ellbury are untouchables? I remember names like Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie being thrown in with Lester and Crisp, I’m sorry Peter but these guys are not STUDS.

But don’t take my word for it, here’s what Kevin Goldstien had to say about them:

“Masterson’s sinker is not only the best in the system, it’s arguably the best in all of the minor leagues. The pitch comes out of his hand at 88-92 mph, touches 94, and features tremendous downward break. Making the pitch even more effective is his ability to locate it in any four quadrants of the zone. He has an intimidating presence on the mound, and his drop-and-drive style gives him some deception.
Masterson’s three-quarters delivery is a bit of a concern, as his causes him to often get around on his slider, taking away any depth from the pitch. He made some progress this year with a circle grip on his changeup, but it remains a below-average pitch. Because of these concerns with his arsenal, some project him to be a reliever down the road.
Perfect World Projection: Pitchers like Chien-Ming Wang, Fausto Carmona and Derek Lowe have proven that sinkerballers can have great success in starting roles. While Masterson is in that mold, he’s a notch below them.”

In my opinion He’s a Middle of the Rotation Guy… Pretty Much a younger Red Sox Version of Allan Horne without the health history…Horne does has the better secondary stuff.

“Lowrie is an on-base machine. His approach is highly advanced, as he works the count well, and recognizes which pitches he can drive into the gap. His makeup is off the charts--he’s a baseball grinder who plays and practices with an infectious all-out style. Defensively, he’s fundamentally sound and features a solid, accurate arm.
Scouts’ opinions of Lowrie vary wildly, with some seeing him as an everyday big league shortstop, and others seeing him as no more than a very good utility player. There is little doubt that with Lowrie’s average speed and slow first step that his range is a little short to play on the left side of an infield in the big leagues.
Perfect World Projection: A starting shortstop, though second base is more likely.”

In my opinion If Lowrie can up his range at short, which is highly unlikely B/C he will turn 23 this December he’s a decent prospect because he posted a 410 OBP in AA and 354 OBP in AAA while Slugging just over 500 in both stops last year. Definitely not a STUD more like a gritty second basemen destined for the bottom of the order on a Good Team.

Peter you’re a great hall of fame journalist Stop hyping the prospects on your favorite Team… It makes you sound like a SoSH message board member.

santana to the yanks, cano, edwin encarnacion, and matt maloney to twins, ian kennedy and fanrsworth to the reds. The twins get two young position players who can step in and star right now. The yanks get Santana and keep Hughes/Chamberlain. The reds get a young #4 starter and a power arm in the pen that could suceed in the NL central.

A couple things...

The Red Sox do not NEED Santana to be competitive, but they are not simply trying to drive his price up. Actually acquiring Santana would accomplish two things of independent significance: (1) It would cement their rotation with two genuine aces (which is a blessing, not a burden); (2) It would keep Santana away from the Yankees. Santana's presence in the Yankees rotation could tip the scales back in the Yankees' direction further than Red Sox ownership is comfortable letting it go without a fight. Rest assured they're not simply driving up the price; if they're sane, they legitimately do not want to see Santana in pinstripes, giving NY the playoff pitcher they've been lacking.

Also, I think Gammons is blowing this issue about Josh Beckett's salary out of proportion. Quite frankly, the implication that Josh Beckett needs to be paid more if another "ace" comes in implies that he will intentionally perform below his capabilities if Santana were traded to the Red Sox and extended. It's insulting. Schilling makes more than Beckett. Dice-K costs more than Beckett when his cost is spread out annually. Drew costs more. Lugo's salary is comparable. Enough.

"In my opinion If Lowrie can up his range at short, which is highly unlikely B/C he will turn 23 this December he’s a decent prospect because he posted a 410 OBP in AA and 354 OBP in AAA while Slugging just over 500 in both stops last year. Definitely not a STUD more like a gritty second basemen destined for the bottom of the order on a Good Team."

I think people are underestimating just what it means for a middle infielder to slug over .500 in the high minors.

I also think people are losing sight of the fact that these trades proposed aren't for the best pitcher in baseball at reasonable cost over six years. They're for the RIGHT to PAY upwards of $22-25M per year for the best pitcher in baseball over the course of five, six, seven years. That's why the Red Sox aren't throwing Buchholz, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson, and the kitchen sink at the Twins. It's also presumably why people aren't physically slapping the mother-loving crap out of Yankees fans suggesting Melky + Kennedy + belly button lint should get it done.

I like Gammons. He's a pro and he's got arguably the best and widest sources in the business. But he has always been a bit of a shill for the Red Sox and you have to take any report he gives that involves Boston with a grain of salt.

Of course NY needs Santana worse than Boston and in a normal business, Boston would not make nearly the effort to gain that asset that NY would. But "normal business" does not describe MLB and it certainly doesn't take the Red Sox/Yankee rivalry in to account.

I have to imagine Theo is laughing his ass off and Cashman is tearing his hair out as he tries to talk "sense" to yet another Steinbrenner.

Smith just needs to be patient and he'll end up naming his own price with the Yankees. If not, and assuming an LA team doesn't come forward with a great deal, he simply keeps Santana... with or without an extension.

Well If the Yankees and Red Sox insist on keeping on their Top Prospects for Themselves; From the Twins Perspective, they should keep Johan try to contend for the fans who paid For Ebenezer Pohlad's new Stadium. If there out by July I'm sure they can get similair prospects for a rent an ace situation. Especially if either the Red Sox or Yankees are fighting for the pennant.

I am a big Redsox fan but I am starting to feel like everybody else in here. It is starting to get really aggravating having to listen to this Santana stuff all day every day. I wouldn't doubt if the Twins find a way to keep him and make the Skanks and Sox look pretty silly.

I thought gammons was a sux fan?....I really hope the yankees do not have to trade hughes to get santana.

First off, Cano is not going anywhere for anyone at all. Also, if the Yankees deal Hughes they aren't including Kennedy as well in a deal but will probably include Tabata/Jackson along with Shelly Duncan, who was born to DH. And finally, I don't see NY making a deal for Santana this year but I do see them pushing hard to get Peavy from SD after this season...

I hope the Yankees don't get Santana, or if they do, I hope takes the FA train out of town the next year. It's not good for baseball when the Sox and Yanks can vaccuum up all the high-priced players.

The Red Sox and Yankees fans are delusional.

The fact they have the gall to think any of these young prospects who have yet to prove anything of significance in the MLB are untouchable.

We are talking about the best pitcher in baseball people. Almost a modern version of Sandy Koufax. The man is 28 years old, and barring injury a shoe-in hall of famer!

You are telling me These prospects are untouchable?? Unbelievable. Honestly, you are being delusional.

The Twins are not stupid. It will take Ellsbury and Bucholz, or Hughes and Cano for a deal to get done. The Twins will let him walk and take their pair of #1 picks if they don't get AT LEAST that value. They have had success with that route in the past, and will no doubt choose the draft picks over these crappy prospect offers being talked about now.

Yanks fans, are you honestly telling me you think Hughes is untouchable? He is not even close to a sure thing yet...Unreal, and I'm shaking my head.

I don't have any credible sources on this, but there seems to be a growing sentiment that the Twins might throw a blank check at Johan and put an end to this nonsense. MN is 14th or the 17th biggest market in the nation. Does that qualify as a small-market? I guess compared to the top 5 it does....The fact it has come to this is disgusting. Polhad is a billionaire twice over, worth bundles more than even Steinbrenner, and he has to be bamboozled into opening his wallet. This team is not in the red, that is for sure. Good grief.

What really cracks me up is that in 1987 and 1991 the Twins had the highest payroll in baseball. Funny how the miserly ways set in after that.

Sorry for rambling.

For all those getting sick and tired of the Johan rumors, here's an idea: Stop going to a baseball trade rumor site! That's the whole purpose of this website. To learn about possible signings/trades and then discuss them. What were you expecting?

Well said, Pabelboner.

Additionally, for all the people who are tired of the Johan rumors, why bother to comment at all?

so how many people actually believe satana will get traded before the season, because the more this plays out it seems less likely to me.

Don't get me wrong, I love prognisticating, I just think everybody is dreaming if they can load a bunch of maybe prospects onto the Twins, and hold on to their prized possessions. Like Bill Smith himself said after the Delmon deal, "To get something, you have to give up something."

common sense says that if the twins trade santana that nathan would have to go as well, so make that trade with the red sox, im not fond on coco crisp, yet he would be a good lead off hitter now that the twins have cuddyer, morneau, young and mauer who can drive runs in, then trade nathan to tdodgers for laroche and a prospect. make sense to anbody else?

I like that line of thinking. Getting LaRoche for Nathan would be a good risk. Do you think the Dodgers would do it? I'm not sure how high they are on LaRoche at this point, but it sure would beat anything the Twinks have at 3rd. I love Joe Nathan, but he is 33, and an injury waiting to happen.

How about this? The Twins ship Nathan to the Brewers for Bill Hall and a mid-level prospect. Throw Hall at 3rd. Is there a way to package someone else on the Twins and get Corey Hart thrown in? I'm not sure who it would be since after the top 4 hitters, and the young SP crew, the Twins are a pile of dung.

Why LaRoche?

Why not ask for Kemp, park his butt in RF, and move Cuddyer back to 3B?

Kemp is a much, much better hitter than LaRoche and Colletti might be insane enough to do that trade.

I'm pretty sure the ash conscious Twins would prefer LaRoche over Bill Hall (who's a stiff anyway). That said, do the Dodgers really need Nathan? They have Saito and Broxton, both of whom had very good seasons.

"To get something, you have to give up something."

Yes, but when that something is the biggest contract ever handed out to a pitcher that the team will lose in a year then you do not exactly throw the farm away the same way you would for a player that is cost controlled for years to come. Any team willing to give a huge contract could just wait a year and keep the top levels of their farm in tact. This is why you will not see the red sox flinch but every Yankees fan is living in fear that the steinbrenners lock cashman in a closet and go for the win this year.

we have to remember that saito is now 37 years old as was injured for part of last year, nathan could lock the dodgers closer role for another 5 to 6 years

and also we would not go for kemp, but go for laroche because cuddyer is good at rf while he is horrendous at 3rd, i stood a year of that and he is locked at rf

Wow. Didn't realize that Saito was that old. That said, isn't Broxton being groomed as "the closer of the future"? If not, would a LaRoche/Broxton for Nathan deal work? LaRoche just doesn't seem enough for the best closer in baseball or is it me?

if we would have wanted to move cuddyer back to third , dont you think that would've happened when we got delmon, who is a natural right fielder, thaty have young in left and cuddyer in right because they both have rocket arms and their assist numbers are great

i think it would have to be laroche/broxton for nathan/ and a low level prospect to even it out

Makes sense. And I think the Twins would almost have to jump at that deal.

yeah it would help both teams for sure

I like the potential of LaRoche, but once again, I would almost tilt in favor of Bill Hall, because we know we are getting a hitter that is at least average now, and has a decent price tag. I don't see the Dodgers going for Nathan. Seems like they are going to hand the job to Broxton (when Saito is done), and I don't blame them. The guy is an absolute beast.

I agree that Nathan could be the #1 closer in baseball, but I don't think you get the farm for him. Any other possibilities other than the Dodgers or Brewers?

rumors are with the giants yet i dont see what they could send back for nathan

I agree, the Giants are brutal from a hitting standpoint. Although I am not very informed on their hitting prospects, so correct me if I am wrong.

and brewers have already said they donty want nathan hes too expensive

(about Lowrie)
"I think people are underestimating just what it means for a middle infielder to slug over .500 in the high minors."

Absolutely! Top prospect Brandon Wood didn't do it. Lowrie also bested Wood in OBP by .55. I'm not saying he has as high a ceiling as Wood, but its worth noting that in two very important statistical catagories, Lowrie bested Brandon Wood. He is no slouchof a prospect.

Lowrie will never hit 30 home runs, but he could develop 20 HR power. He will certainly hit plenty of doubles. He could be comparable to Michael Young (ceiling). Good average, good on base ability, doubles, questionable range at short. I wish the Sox weren't stuck with Lugo's contract so this kid could play.

Nathan for LaRoche/Broxton does make some sense. While Broxton is younger and cheaper, Nathan is a 'proven closer.' I don't think much of the idea closers are different from other relievers, but the Dodgers might.

All the people flipping out at the fact that "untouchable" prospects haven't been included to date must know something I don't.

I missed the part in negotiations where the Twins offered to foot part of the bill for Santana's extension. These prospect offers are for ONE year of Santana, with a window during which the acquiring team wins the "privilege" of signing him to a $150M contract.

The Twins are not offering six cost-controlled years of the best pitcher in baseball. They're offering one year at reasonable cost, plus (presumably) a window for exclusive negotiation. Now while that window is important, it does nothing to mitigate Santana's eventual cost. If Santana doesn't like the extension offered, he can refuse, the deal breaks down, and the Twins are forced to keep him or peddle him to Team B.

Please, please stop acting as though the teams involved are throwing four pieces of crap at the Twins in exchange for a half-decade of FREE dominance.

And on that note, arm chair gm's need to realize their opinion is not fact

The dominance isn't "free" but it is exclusive-- by trading for Santana now, a team avoids a direct financial bidding war and will get Santana a little cheaper than after this season (also because it is an extension rather than a completely new deal- the year of security has some marginal value).

The bottom line is that if Santana hits the market, he's a Yankee, period. I understand that teams don't want to give up young players but, for everyone other than the Yankees, that is the only option.

Hey, Johan is worth sending quality players over for the exclusive chance to sign. Let him hit the open market and it is anyone's guess.

The best pitcher in baseball worth that. He is proven, and that is hard to find.

It is not a foregone conclusion that Johan would be in pinstripes if he became a FA


And for the record I am not advocating a sox signing

I simply realize that other teams DO have the money and other teams COULD sign the guy if they wanted..

@DunkinDonuts:

Thank you! That's the reason I'm asking for Hughes to be kept out of these talks.

The question isn't:

Is Johan better than Hughes + whatever?

OR

Is Johan better than Lester + whatever?

The answer to those questions is yes, obviously.

The question is:

Is Johan 20-25 million dollars better every year for the next 6 than the trade package you're throwing out there?

I'd like to see the Dodgers get Santana. They may have what it takes to do so. Then, Torre can pull him in the sixth inning with 1 baserunner and abuse Scott Proctor some more.

The real benefit ... he's no longer in the AL!

The answer in my humble opinion, is yes, he is better. The best pitcher in baseball, changes the whole postseason picture for the Swankees.

Fireforge,

If Santana hits the open market, sure, it's anyone's guess as to exact dollar amount, but we can predict a range. Upwards of $25M, but likely not much more. The right to negotiate with him exclusively doesn't mean that Santana is handcuffed. He will demand somewhere close to what he could get as a free agent, or he will torpedo the deal and return to the Twins.

I don't see the Dodgers getting Santana, for one reason: the Dodgers can't afford him. They can do the trade to appease the Twins, but not the contract extension to appease Santana and his agent.

Only the Yankees can give Santana the most money and the longest contract, unless some iconoclast owner or GM pulls a Tom Hicks. The Red Sox won't give him more than five years... probably four years with a fifth year option.

Right now, the Yankees need him much more than the Red Sox do, but the Yankees need middle relief even more.

I always feel Santana is going to sign with New York Yankees, because they will offer him the best terms. I think the Red Sox trade offer is the best right now for the Twins compare to the Yankees, because they can flipped two of the four for another top rate player, if need be, but if the Yankees offer Hughes and Cano, they will seal the deal and appease all parties. Kennedy and Cabrera is not going to cut it, it has to be Cano and Hughes or if the Yankees want to throw some others, Jackson in the mix for a 2-4 player deal.

“Kemp is a much, much better hitter than LaRoche and Colletti might be insane enough to do that trade.”


…Not a huge deal, but I just wanted to say that statement isn’t really true, at all…

LaRoche has shown both better patience and power in the minor leagues. The only thing he hasn’t done is show the power in the MLs yet so this perception is out there. Going into 2007 LaRoche was the #19 ranked prospect in all of baseball (much higher then Kemp) and he plays Plus-3B. Kemp is very, very good as well ~ but LaRoche is probably a tad higher on the "total package" ability list and equal at worst…


And like someone else mentioned ~ just because Johan could be a FA doesnt mean the Yanks just get him. The highest paid pitcher in baseball is in SF and the highest previous contract ever offered (before ARods new deal) was from Tex. You never know which team would offer an insane amount to get possibly the best pitcher we have seen in 20 years...

Yes.. the Dodgers are just DYING to give away LaRoche AND Bro when we already have one of the best closers in baseball and a stud in waiting...OK. I agree with darkstar if LaRoche is healthy he's the Dodgers best young hitter and plays 3rd base well.

The 4 teams should combine the 2 big trade. This is f'n genius, Each team gets:

Minny: Lester, Wood, Lowrie, Crisp
Fl: Ellsbury, Kendrick
Angels: Miggy
Sox: Santana, Conger(Tek's replacement)

Trek ... who do the Sox get to play the outfield if you give up both Centerfielders? Rowand? Andruw?

I think you would have to swap MN and FLA around. The Twins would want Ellsbury and Kendrick intead of the group of Maybe's you are giving them.

Wood worries me. The guy has no disciple, albeit he is young, I know.

God forbid the Twins get Coco Crisp. That would be nightmare.
From how it sounds they want to avoid him like the plague.

I love how all these Sox and other baseball fans talking about how "Cashman must be flipping out trying to avoid trading Hughes/Cano" and saying Yankees fans are all "terrified another Steinbrenner will overrule logic" and so on.

(I'm kidding. I don't love it. I hate it because you are all completely correct. This sucks.)

Post of the day goes to..... Not Joe Morgan!

Got a kick out of that one.

I'm not a Mets' fan but this is just a dumb trade to me. lol. That's why their the Mets. lol

And I agree, the Dodgers should have ZERO interest in trading LaRoche/Broxton for Nathan. That just doesn't make any sense for them.

I think the Twins will stand pat in the end. Johan is the only thing that will allow them to contend next year. These prospects may or may not pan out. As a small market team, you gotta use the talent while you have it. If they're slipping towards the trade deadline, they could deal him to a desperate Yankee/BoSox team. Who knows, maybe a miracle will occur and he'll decide to stay in Minn.

Simply put. the mets are out of the running becuase dead honestly they're farm system SUCKS. and the redsox, well lets be honest i as a yankee can admit that they would have a KICK ASS rotation with the addition of john but where are they getting all this money? nobody on that team is like a reyes or a wright on the mets who isnt getting paid too much so they have the room

John Henry has plenty of money; I wouldn't worry about that.

Also, they're paying low money at the 1B, 2B and CF positions next year. And closer. C'mon.

did you just ask where are the redsox getting all this money?


Wow


just wow

"But where are they getting all this money?"

You obviously have never been to the city of Boston. Its almost disguisting how much they love the Red Sox. I personally think it borders on creepy

I still dont get why the twins would want yet another ofer in addition to melky

doesn't border on creepy ...


it is creepy :)

F&*K!

Keep Hughes out of this goddamnit.

If Hughes is included, the Yankees win....at least, in Hank Steinbrenner's eyes.

If Hughes is included, it better be a Hughes/Melky/C-prospect (like White, or Dan McCutchen at most).

It'll be a win... but for once, just once I'd like them to keep the young guy with potential instead of trading him away for another 20 million dollar contract.

I hate what the front-office has become.

so would the only difference in the deal be replacing ian kennedy with phil hughes, or do the twins want both?

hughes/kennedy/cabrera/1-2 others

or

hughes/cabrera/1-2 others?

I understand that Hughes has potential and all that, but the Yankees need a bona fide ace. They can't honestly go into the season with a rotation of Wang, Mussina, Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy and expect to compete with the Sox rotation of Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling, and Haren, who I believe they are going to end up with after everything is all said and done. In addition, the core of the team - Jeter, Posada, Matsui, Damon, Abreu, and even A-Rod - aren't getting any younger. This team is built to win NOW, not three or four years from now.

But that's just my opinion.

@04Forever:

There's no way its both of them. Its one.

@tolo:

I understand. I actually wouldn't mind finishing 2nd or missing the playoffs for 2 years if it meant a better, deeper team.

I thought they should've let ARod go for example.

idk, the whole dan haren thing is pretty quiet, i havent really heard about him being actively shopped like santana is, i dont see a haren/boston trade going down or even being talked about until the smog settles after this deal, if the yankees retain santana.

Hughes in this package is a loss for the Yankees. Why not give them a fourth prospect and just send kennedy?

hughes is asking alot, but the fact that the yankees are "thinking about" and how hank has his fathers insanity, makes me think that they are going to get santana and make the best right now team they can build.

dabigny, the reason why is because they dont want a fourth, they WANT hughes, hes the conerstone of the deal to make it work

besides, youll get to keep ian kennedy, yankee fans love him sooooo muuuuch

They are built to win now. If they really wanted to go with the youngsters and reduce payroll they would have had a different strategy with ARod/Posada/Rivera.

They would have been in great shape 2-3 years down the road going with youth. They would have core talent developed and an incredibly flexible payroll.

Unfortunately, they have to win this year. You can't have a payroll around $200m and not make the playoffs. The whole youth movement sounded nice but Yankee suits (and their fans) got nervous and caved into handing out large contracts to old players. Now if they move Hughes + others youngsters for Santana it will further erode their youth movement.

It's fine for the Yankees to do this. I just don't want to hear about their new, sound, fiscal approach to running a ball team. They are still buying championships (or at least trying to buy championships). They remain the most Evil Empire (closely followed by the Bo Sox).

go to the "did we miss anything" post, the newest one, the yankees included hughes! there is proof

The Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, etc will never have fiscal responsibility when it comes to filling out their rosters because they always have opportunities to sign big stars; smaller markets can only afford to do that for 1, maybe 2 of their homegrown stars (like Pujols and STL, for example)

Go check out the latest (comment-based) post because theres a lot of Santana-Hughes delibiration over there.

That is so true, the Cardinals are strapped for cash. They are the epitomy of sound fiscal responsibility.

90million on average over the last 3 years.

Does anybody on here think J.D Drew couldn't beat a 4 year 56 million dollar contract if he was a free agent right now?

"You obviously have never been to the city of Boston. Its almost disguisting how much they love the Red Sox. I personally think it borders on creepy"

It is not that Boston loves the Red Sox, It is the entire New England region. Pretty much everyone in New England follows the Red Sox, except the region west of New Haven to Greenwich which is more Yankee territory.

When George HW Bush campaigned in New Hampshire in 1988 NH primary, he brought along Ted Williams, and guess who everyone wanted to see? Go anywhere in New England, and everyone has an opinion about the Red Sox. Why the Red Sox is such a money maker is how they are ingrained in the entire New England region, and it shows how any team wants to get its brand image strong in the regional market, like how the Cubs have made their brand throughout much of the midwest.

It is creepy? you bet it is creepy, it is like dealing with a cult. My father still remembers when how Pesky held the ball that let Slaughter scored like it was yesterday in the 1946 World Series.

I grew up as a die hard Red Sox fan, but if I lived in New England, I would probably be a Twins or a Indians fan, just not to join in the cult so seriously. I also was less enthuse for the Red Sox during the 1990s during the Dan Duquette reign, when he didn't re- signed Clemens.

What the Sox was curse for so many years wasn't the Bambino, it was bad management and bad owners, (Yawkey who didn't signed Robinson or Willie Mays)

Right now, the World Series trophy is going around New England as some sort of religious relic to appease the faithful. The Red Sox should be called "The New England Red Sox".

Heyt IM A NEW ENGLANDER and im not a Sox fan, AND I HATE WHEN PEOPLE LUMP US IN WITH BOSTON !!!!!!!!!! Im from Connecticut, and the town i was born in, the city hall steps - get this - are exactly half way between Fenway and the Stadium. THATS cool. Oh yeah, only Vermonters and Massachussetss-whatevers are bogus for Boston. We are split on NYY/BOS here, and NY isnt far.

I would like to formally file a petition against using the words "New England" and "Red Sox" in the same sentence from here on. They are not related. That's like saying that New York/Pennsylvania is Yankees territory; it aint.

LoL just kidding but seriously i hate being referred to as a "New Englander"

"i havent really heard about him being actively shopped like santana is"

Beane didn't call you?

NEWSDAY reports that the Yankees offered the Twins Hughes, it's official.

check it out.....

This is just my gut feeling... I know everyone wide eyed Yankee fan will disagree with me but i would part with Chamberlain Before Hughes. I think Joba has the higher ceiling but has a longer way to go to reach his potential as a Starter than a short reliever. I just remember watching Hughes during the playoffs and after he settled in He really looked like the best pitching propect in baseball. Being an Ace is not about here it is can you hit... Its about setting up hitters to hit your pitch the first second third and fourth time through the order. In my opinion Hughes is better equiped to do that over the long haul.

I'm still trying to figure out what these teams are seeing in Melky Cabrera. Great 4th outfielder, nothing more.

@Jzzskins:

Joba's always been a starter. His velocity stays deep into games, so I don't see what the problem is.

--

My guess is that Beane asks for a package >= what someone ends up paying for Santana.

How did the Cardinals ever let Haren go?

Melky is essentially very average. He'll hit 15 homers, hit 275-280, knock in a few runs here and there, and play the field fairly well. His only exceptional asset is that he has a rocket arm, and when you're okay at everything and exceptional at one thing, then you're generally a fairly valuable player. The guy deserves to be a starter somewhere, just maybe not on a contender

Apparently the cards wanted Mark Mulder more....and if this deal goes down for the yanks...people might be asking the same thing about Phillip hughes in a few years....hahaha

I think the only prob with melky scribble is that not being in a contender lineup as good as the Yankees I see him hitting closer to .265-.270

the yankees are crazy for going after santanna.way to much money and prospects.hughes could be as good or close to him.these trades do not work.if he was 25 or 26,maybe or if it was for 5 yrs 100 million.dan haren would be much better,younger much cheaper and the yankees could still ad another ace giving them 2 plus wang.if we keep hughes,joba and trade kennedy then i would agree because a pitching staff of santanna,wang,hughes,joba,mussina would definately be better than boston's pitching.if santanna gets hurt then the yankees are finished,lost hughes and more and are financially strapped.keep the kids and let boston have him.

I wish you owned the yankees brucieeb....LOL...If the sox get Johan we will dominate the yankees for years to come...

@matsuzakasan:

"Apparently the cards wanted Mark Mulder more....and if this deal goes down for the yanks...people might be asking the same thing about Phillip hughes in a few years....hahaha"

But as you were so kind to point out to us about 25 times last night, Hughes is overrated. So it's more accurate to say that we're about to pull off a heist, isn't it?

"I think the only prob with melky scribble is that not being in a contender lineup as good as the Yankees I see him hitting closer to .265-.270"

Good point, i never even considered the kind of protection that he gets around him from that lineup, as well as the many RBI's that are close to essentially handed to him. Still would be a solid starter for most teams.

What is a Melky, and why would the Twins want something named that in their outfield? Isn't he just a juiced up Jason Tyner?

For the love of God, I wish things were different....

@Kosh

ahhhh....I was being facetious buddy...Mark Mulder is not Johan Santana and Phillip hughes is not Dan Haren....go kick rocks

I really want to know if this new offer from the Yankees means that Hughes is replacing Kennedy or if Hughes as just been added to the offer along with Kennedy/Cabrera/another prospect. I have a hard time believing that other prospect would be either Jackson or Tabata. Seems like a truly insane price when you factor in the huge extension that would come later.

I'm a Red Sox fan, and I have found this whole Santana sweepstakes, and the debate here on the site, to be very entertaining. In the end I feel like if the Yankees offer up a package like above, or even have to give up Cano in some scenario, the Red Sox will feel like have done their job. That's not to say the Sox don't want Johan; I think they do on a certain level. But their overall unwillingness to part with Ellsbury and Buchholz should say something about how much they really want him.

As far as the Haren discussion, with Beane you just never know. I've heard for months that Beane could possibly blow up the A's this winter, but who's to say he won't demand a lot more for Haren than the Twins want for Santana? But then again, he gave up Tim Hudson for virtually nothing a few years back (a different situation, Hudson only had one year left but he did have a better track record than Haren does now).

Where the Santana sweepstakes really only involves teams that could afford his extension, any Haren sweepstakes could potentially involve a whole bunch more teams, considering how much less $ Haren is due to make. But, again, I'm not convinced Beane will definitely move him.

The plot thickens.

ur scribb...Ive got nothin against melky he's a hustler...and even as a Sox fan I have to say him and coco are potentially the same except coco has the defensive flair that fits in with past OF's in Minn. He's pretty exciting to watch in CF

Maybe it means the trade won't happen, but I don't think this latest offer is enough. Just yesterday sources were saying Hughes + Cabrera wasn't even close. The Twins already have an Alan Horne, they call theirs Anthony Swarzak and he's like 3 years younger with no injury history.

A prospect like Austin Jackson probably will have to be added to even get close.

Theres no way the Yankees give up both Hughes and Kennedy, if they do that then they are making a mistake. I'm guessing it Hughes essentially replacing Kennedy in their offer, which makes it something like Hughes, Melky and someone like Alan Horne

and Hughes was off limits in talks with the Twins until earlier tonight, when the Yankees front office finally decided to include him in an offer

Ive heard that the Twins are concerned that the Yanks other prospects besides Hughes and Kennedy are not MLB ready till 2009 and that is what one of the problems is...

It wasnt that long ago that all three of the top Yankee pitching prospects were untouchable. A couple days ago, Kennedy was available. Now Hughes. A week from now, who knows? Twins may have Cano, Hughes and Kennedy, with Cabrera as a throw in!

Ok.. probably not... but what I find interesting is that, while I expected to see the bidding between Boston and NY cause both teams to incrementally increase offers until the Twins got a couple of legit potential stars, it seems like NY is now bidding against themselves as Boston has stood firm on not including Ellsbury.

I guess not really bidding against themselves, but bidding against the team that already owns Santana and could decide to keep him.

I think the Twins will wait until the meetings start Sunday.. consider the offers on the table Sunday night and pull the trigger on Monday. None of the parties will want this to drag on longer than that.

As for Melky, he doesn't excite me as a Twins fan... but he's better than anyone else in the organization right now. And it may not be the Yankees lineup, but he'll have Mauer, Young, Morneau, and Cuddyer in the lineup with him and that ain't nothin`. The Twins will also be needing to pick up another infielder next week... probably a 3B.

I doubt if the Twins will insist all prospects be MLB ready in 2008. If theyre at least prospects that have market value or increase their own prospect depth, they can always spin such prospects to someone else for a MLB third baseman (for example).

They're aren't insisting...but if the Yankees are up against the red sox offer of lester,coco,lowrie and masterson/Bowden...those guys are all pretty much MLB ready...so YES it does matter..

I'll be shocked if the Twins accept an offer from Boston that includes Crisp. They can't communicate a flat out refusal, though. If they did that, yes, Boston MIGHT swap in Ellsbury... but if they don't, they may make a deal with someone else and there goes the Twins leverage to get the best deal from NY.

Smith's walkinga fine line right now... waiting things out to get the best offer possible, but not waiting so long that he loses out on what would be an acceptable deal.

Fun stuff.

Not to mention that Tabata and Austin Jackson the other 2 prospects mentioned in the deal as good as they may be are 19 and 20 yrs old respectively and haven't been passed Single A ball yet so no you are not flipping them for any 3B of value at a MLB level

ESPN Trade Center game read here for more info: http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=mlb&id=general&tid=1956004&lid=9 only Royals, Reds taken.

If the twins want two quality starters and a very good SS(which you also need) they will except coco as a throw in....he's just as good as melky and the twins can afford 4 mil a year despite what all the Yankees shills on here think

Hughes/Melky/Betimit for 3b?? he'd be an upgrade over Punto for sure

I don't think the Twins will pay 4 mil a year for a 'throw in'. Just not their MO. I also don't think they want two quality starters. They want a potential legitimate #1 and it sounds like Hughes is the one they see as most likely to reach that level.

I would agree that the Twins aren't likely to be excited about low-minor level pitching prospects because they have a bunch of those already. But if they got someone like Jackson, they wouldn't spin him... they're desperate for quality position players at almost every level of their organization.

More likely, they would see what they could get for one of their better A-AA arms. Of course, Nathan is still likely going to get dealt, too.

I've been a little surprised Betimit hasn't been mentioned at all in any of the conjecture. What's his contract status?

I just assumed that the Twins aren't big on him for some reason or have another deal for a 3B in the works apart from what they're doing with Santana.

I am still skeptical just adding Hughes guarantees Santana to the Yankees is as close as many may think. It seems they are demanding 2 of a teams best 3 (not saying they will get it but they will at least see if they can) Hughes still is only one of those and the Yankees are at a disadvantage here because if they keep cano, joba, kennedy off limits then it is hard to see a strong 2nd player (please do not embarrass yourself by suggesting melky). Hughes may be the best single player they can get for Santana but the Twins might be tempted by a package with more depth or at least keep trying to force the yankees into tipping their hand even further about needing Johan bad.

I'm in agreement that at this moment there's not much of difference between Cabrera and Crisp. Cabrera can hit more now while Crisp's defense is far superior.

The differences in relation to this trade are pretty obvious however: Cabrera has a lot more upside than Crisp and the money is better for the Twins.

At the same time, this should not at any point force the Red Sox to replace Crisp in the deal with Ellsbury. And not this this is really related, he's way better than Cabrera and even the most ardent Yankees homer could not argue otherwise.

It angers me to no end that the Twins distaste with the $10 million owed to Crisp would prevent this deal from happening. If I were a Twins fan I'd already be pissed off enough that 175-year-old Carl Pohlad enjoys sitting on his mountainous fortune and never trickles any of it into his baseball team. Gimme a break.

Thank you walkoff...my point exactly...The red sox four man package(even with crisp in t) is still more appealing than Hughes, melky and a prospect

The issue is not Crisp's salary. Not even a little bit. The Twins obviously just think he sucks. If the Twins wanted a CF for less than a million they wouldn't have recently contacted Rowand's agent. The Twins are well under budget, especially if Santana is dealt, and the issue is talent. Crisp doesn't have enough of it.

I've read some of the posts and I agree mostly with Twins fans. This is one of the most talented pitchers in baseball and they are about to lose him. But aparantley most have gotten over the fact that he's going to be traded. It must be frustrating to have an owner who doesn't spend money on the team. The biggest reason why the Twins are balking at Crisp is because they want more prospects. Everyone keeps saying the Red Sox are driving up the price for the Yankees is false. And the Red Sox DO have a legit interest in him. He's one of the best players in baseball of course the best team in baseball has interest. Anyone who thinks elsewise are either a yankee fan or don't pay attention to baseball or both. A big reason for the Sox to get over Buccholz Bowden, Ellsbury and Lowrie is that it also keeps the 'black night at bay', aka blocking the yankees. Theo's point is that they don't want to spend a ton of money to block the yankees, but the Sox would be giving up prospects. The Sox have the best scouting system in MLB so we can replace those names quickly, and by the time Johan completes just half of his time with the Sox. When you have prospects there are only two choices; keep them and hope they perform, or trade them for PROVEN talent and make the other team worry if they will pan-out. Thank You.

When Red Sox and Yankee ownership are willing to talk seriously about sharing income from tv and other revenue advantages that their market size give them, we can have a seriousl discussion of owner-greed. Pohlad commits a higher percentage of his team's revenue to payroll than most owners. But this is a trade rumor site, so that's a topic for another venue.

I have no problem with the Twins looking at Crisp and saying "no thanks" to paying 10 million for him when you can get someone comparable now... and with greater upside... for far, far less money. If they're going to pay millions for a CF, they want someone better than Crisp and I think most Twins fans support that.

This whole crisp/cabrera debate is not that important to any trade package as a whole. Which prospects the teams are willing to give up is really everything. Even if it mattered and it was purely a money issue the Sox could pay some of Crisp's contract, its not like an extra 5 mil is going to stop them from making a deal that could cost them around 150 mil.

Aaron Rowand is not a considerable upgrade from Crisp he has a little more power....but all in all their lifetime stats are very similar and your gonna have to pay Rowand much mor than 4 mil a year...

I should note that Crisp is way better than anyone the Twins have right now in CF. The issue with Santana is that the Twins want more upside-- they have negotiated with the Red Sox to acquire Crisp separately so clearly they consider him an option, despite his limitations. I imagine the Twins rate Crisp well ahead of Corey Patterson. Rowand is better but his price is problematic for his inconsistent offense.

I like Santanna but I also like hughes alot better. Now Santanna is a better pitcher but he mayonly pitchgood for maybe 5 years. Now hughes is 22 and if he turns out good 18-20 winner it would last at leat 10 years. I'm afraid this will bite the Yankees in the ass. Also anybody who's listening if I were the Yankees I'd rather trade Joba than hughes. Look as you saw towards the end of the year when things mattered most Joba didn't pitch good, when he pitched back to back innings he sucked. Now Hughes has proven he could pitch good when it matters most, around a 2 ERA in September and getting the only Yankees win in Game 3 of the playoffs. If Hughes was a setup man he would of had like a .38 ERA and lower.

This deal is done - Santana is a yankee:

22 big name acquisitions in a 8 year period - All either bloated long
>term deals, salary dump pickups, aging star signings, or contract
>extension deals. yankee gluttony is sickening.


>2001 Mike Mussina (88.5 mill)

>2002 Ja$on Giambi (120mill), David Wells (7mill)(pt. 2), Jeff
Weaver(22mill)

>2003 Hideki Matsui (21 mill), Jose Contreras (32 mill),

>2004 Gary Sheffield (39mill), Alex Rodriguez (70 milll), Kevin
Brown(33mill), Javier Vasquez(30mill)

2005 Randy Johnson(38mill), Jaret Wright(17mill), Carl Pavano(40mill)

2006 Johnny Damon(52 mill), Bobby Abreau(37mill
for 2.5 yrs), Hideki Matsui Pt.2 (52mill)

>2007 Andy Pettite(32mill), Mike Mussina Pt.2 (23mill) , Kei
Igawa(46mill), Roger Clemen$ (28 million [17 mill pro-rated])

2008 Alex Rodriguez pt. 2 (minimum 275 mill), Johan Santana (150 mill)

TOTAL = 1.25 BILLION not even counting luxury tax!

When the yanks were about to follow through on their word and let Arod go then start next year with Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy in the rotation I was so ready to start respecting them again but they went back on their "we are going to get younger and cheaper" claim AGAIN.

Think about the fact that Scott Brosius hit about .203 the year before the
yanks acquired him. They took a shot anyway on a guy like that and it paid
off big time. If your a yanks fan who would you want up with the game on the
line in the bottom of the 9th, game 7 of the world series -Brosius or Arod?
I bet your answer is Brosius - And that is what is wrong with the yanks. They
are trying to buy it, not win it with grit. Unfortunately there is a level
where money will overcome that kind of problem and the yanks are on the
verge of it. They are very likely about to buy the 08 World Championship
and it won't mean squat because of the spending. Are Arod, Giambi, Abreau,
Clemens, Damon, Mussina, Santana or whoever else they buy "true" yankees? I don't think so. None of them could carry Paul O'Neils’ Jock.
Enjoy your hollow championship yank fans. The yanks certainly bought ...I
mean earned it.

So many teams are doing this now. Boston Red Sox's payroll, if they got Santana instead, would be right there with the Yankees, the Angels is spending tons of money on FA's, the Cubs would have spent a ton this year too if it wasn't for the fact that ownership situation isn't settled.

This is how the league is trending, not just the Yankees.

About the trade itself, meh, I hate doing it personally, I'm in the camp of Joba better than Hughes but still would hate to lose Hughes. Santana doesn't necessarily bring us over the top, there are still a lot of pitching issues.

I really laugh when I read some of these posts!

#1 - Hughes has better long term value and his potential over the next 10 years is more than Santana!

Are you serious? Where? When? Santana already has 2 Cy Young awards under his belt and should have a third when that lard butt Bartolo Colon won it a few years ago. So you are telling me that Hughes will win at least 2 Cy Young awards? Wow! Impressive Yankee fans! Santana is 28 years old. Some of you Yankee fans are making him out to be 35 with arm problems! Right now he is better than every darn pitcher you have. You couldn't add TWO pitchers on your staff together to equal the amount of talent that Santana has. Try your vanilla answers of ... well Wang and Hughes are better than Santana ... bull

I have watched Santana pitch for many years and the fact is that Santana, for the most part, guts out a lot of wins because of the inept Twins offense. When he has the lead, his stats are amazing. In a market on a good team, he might seriously win 22-25 games per year. The fact is that you are trying to win the World Series every year and if you sit around and wait for Hughes/Joba/Kennedy to develop - you're window will be long gone my friends. Posada, Jeter, Giambi, Matsui, Mussina, Rivera - they are OLD and your team is OLD - by the time you sit around and wait for your golden boys to emerge as legit guys - you're right back at the bottom of the crap barrel just like the 1980's. I'm sure guys like Jeter, Rivera, etc... love to hear we have to hold on to the young guys for the future when they already know they aren't good enough to win the World Series with what they have on their roster right now. FACE IT YANKEE Fans, your team is not that good right now as compared to the Angels, Red Sox, and Tigers.

#2 - We (Boston and New York fans) don't want and we don't need him. Are you serious again?

Face the facts. If he goes to Boston, you Yankee fans might as well kiss the next 5 years goodbye because you won't even come close to unseating the Red Sox for the crown. Don't even try with this crap of... Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, etc... will take us to the next level. What have they proven? Jack ___!!!

#3 - Let's forget Santana and move onto Danny Haren.

You guys are really in la-la land. Haren is another stud and if you think the A's are going to trade Haren to you for Lester/Lowrie or Kennedy/Horne, you're absolutely dillusional. The A's are even more frugal trading partners than the Twins are. Remember Mark Mulder and the Tim Hudson trades?

4 - Melky Cabrera/Coco Crisp in a deal plus one top prospect is good enough.

Face it! Coco sucks! Cabrera sucks! Crisp I don't even need to talk about but once again these Yankee fans talk about future all-star? Where? When? Cabrera gets 500+ AB last year and manages to hit .270 with no power - yeah - we have tons of those guys on the Twins - why would we want another guy who can't hit on our roster

#5 - The Twins are too cheap to pay their players.

The Twins are in the middle in payroll. the fact of the matter is that the Yankees and Boston are killing baseball economically right now. The arrogance of the big market teams is so sickening that everyone else in the sport wants to sit back and throw up when they hear Yankees/Mets/Boston/Angels/Dodgers when it comes to money. When will Pittsburgh or Colorado or Minnesota ever have a chance at signing someone good. Never, because the big market teams have a monopoly on the market. No one can deny that!

i love when people's comments consist of nothing but the news that the comments are referring to: "this just in! the yankees are willing to include hughes in the package!"

wait a minute, the tigers and angels are better than the yankees? tigers didn't even make the play-offs and the angels looked like they shouldn't have against the sox.

If Hank Steinbrenner had any balls or intelligence he would have let Arod go and gone with Hughes, Kennedy, and Joba next year. He just showed he is just as big a moronic, gutless, egotistacal, spoiled brat as his father if not bigger. I feel sorry that Brian Cashman has to deal with idiot son Hank. Cashman is the classiest thing about that organization since Hank disrespected then got rid of Torre.

Hughes is 21 years old, has basically the exact same repertoire as Josh Beckett, is homegrown, and would cost nothing for the next 5 years. They are trading that for a 29 year old, who is great, but will cost 150 mill for the next 7 years. nice job yanks

yanks in the 90's mostly homegrown with a high payroll but barely more than the 2nd, 3rd, 4th place payrolss = 4 World Champioships

yanks of the last 7 years - insane payroll way more than everyone else with very little NEW homegrown talent = 0 World championships

you do the math

They missed the boat when they didn't let Arod go and stick with Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy. They could have been a respectable team again like they were in the 90's.

I repeat:

22 big name acquisitions in a 8 year period - All either bloated long
>term deals, salary dump pickups, aging star signings, or contract
>extension deals. yankee gluttony is sickening.


>2001 Mike Mussina (88.5 mill)

>2002 Ja$on Giambi (120mill), David Wells (7mill)(pt. 2), Jeff
Weaver(22mill)

>2003 Hideki Matsui (21 mill), Jose Contreras (32 mill),

>2004 Gary Sheffield (39mill), Alex Rodriguez (70 milll), Kevin
Brown(33mill), Javier Vasquez(30mill)

2005 Randy Johnson(38mill), Jaret Wright(17mill), Carl Pavano(40mill)

2006 Johnny Damon(52 mill), Bobby Abreau(37mill
for 2.5 yrs), Hideki Matsui Pt.2 (52mill)

>2007 Andy Pettite(32mill), Mike Mussina Pt.2 (23mill) , Kei
Igawa(46mill), Roger Clemen$ (28 million [17 mill pro-rated])

2008 Alex Rodriguez pt. 2 (minimum 275 mill), Johan Santana (150 mill)

TOTAL = 1.25 BILLION not even counting luxury tax!

At least we know that the yankees won't win the world series in 08. A team from the Bronx will win it - However it's not the yanks it is just an assembly of All Stars, MVP's and Cy Young award winners who all made their name with other organizations and were just bought by the yankees. If you don't get it just look at Arod, Damon, Mussina, Abreau, Santana, Giambi, Matsui - Those are not "true yankees". They were superstars with other organizations who were simply bought by the yanks. Before you throw Jeter and Posada and Rivera and Cano at me realize that they aren't the ones who will carry the yanks to the 08 world series championship. Arod and Santana will. Deal with it. A 200 million+ All Star team from the Bronx will win the World Series in 08 - They go by the name yankees but they aren't "true yankees"

Even pettitte lost his “True yankee” status. First he went “home” to the Astros 4 years ago and then last year when the yanks offered him 32 million for two years he only accepted AFTER he went back to the Astros offered them a discount of 28 million and they refused.

"This deal is done - Santana is a yankee"

G.H. Hecks, why do you say this? Has it actually been confirmed, or are you theorizing?

Pettite spent nine years pitching for Yankees and He came up from Yankees farm system. Therefore He's true Yankees like Manny Ramirez who sign with Boston Redsox.

Edit Message
Is the lack of a salary cap the problem in baseball?

http://mvn.com/thelastpage/2007/11/30/is-the-lack-of-a-salary-cap-the-problem-in-baseball/

I constantly hear people clamoring for a salary cap in Major League Baseball. Fans have an image of a broken league where money rules all and the little guys just can?t win. However, the empirical evidence clearly states otherwise: that Major League Baseball is as competitive now as ever.

There are two (logically flawed) reasons that I?ve heard fans use to justify a salary cap:

1. High Salaries encourage high ticket and concession prices
2. A salary cap would alleviate competitive balance issues in baseball


Would a salary cap make it cheaper for me to go to the Stadium?

Baseball games are ridiculously expensive. It can cost a family of four close to four hundred dollars for an afternoon in good seats at Yankee Stadium. A salary cap would lower payroll expenses for MLB teams, so wouldn?t this mean they wouldn?t have to charge so much to compensate?

Unfortunately, that?s now how a business works. The Yankees will maximize revenue by charging the as much as people will pay for tickets ? just like any other product. The high ticket prices in baseball stem from a supply and demand problem. Baseball stadiums haven?t grown much in size in recent years ? Yankee Stadium held 55,000 in 1980, and 55,000 today. A lot more people want to watch the Yankees than did in 1980. Supply stays the same, and Demand increases, causing price to increase.

I think that an important issue arises here: who does a salary cap hurt? We?ll talk about competitive balance in a second, but let?s look at this just in the context of money. Fans play the same. Owners, theoretically, collect the same. However, the players lose out. Any salary cap would necessarily mean less money going to the players, money which they deserve.

I?m going to go out on a limb here at state that MLB players are underpaid. That?s not a popular sentiment among baseball fans ? pretty much everyone reading this article would play for the Yankees for free ? but its reality. The players are the product. Tens of thousands are willing to pay huge sums to come out and watch them play every day. Millions will watch them on television, buy their merchandise, and do all the things fans pay to do. However, the owners have a favorable system in place to hold down salaries ? the draft, entry level salary structure, and a favorable arbitration system. When players are at the height of their athletic careers, between the ages of 25 and 29 for most, the free market cannot determine their salary.

Revenues have risen much faster than salaries in recent years. Over the past two off-seasons, the gap has narrowed, but the free agent problem persists. Miguel Cabrera was worth much more to his team than the 7.4 million he was paid in 2007. Owners certainly deserve some money ? they take investment risks, provide facilities, marketing, and branding, but I don?t think anyone can argue that they deserve a higher proportion than the status quo.

Luckily, the salary structure of baseball has a very beneficial side effect: It ensures a competitive league.


Would a salary cap solve a competitive balance problem in baseball?

I?m going to tackle this in two steps. First off, I?ll ask is there a competitive balance problem in baseball? Second, I?ll ask what would a salary cap do?

There is no competitive balance problem in baseball. None at all. Parity in baseball is so healthy that personally, I think that it?s ridiculous that it?s even a question. The best team in the MLB last year had a winning percentage of 59.3 %. The Boston Red Sox ? owners of a 140+ million dollar payroll, couldn?t even win 60% of the time The worst team in baseball, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, managed a 40.7% winning percentage. What does that mean? I means that if I?m a fan of the worst team in baseball, I?ll still see my team win roughly 3 out of every 7 games.

Let?s compare this to the NFL ? a salary capped leagues. In the NFL, the average winning percentage for a last place team was 27.3%. Two teams ? the Oakland Raiders and Detroit Lions ? weren?t able to crack 20%. The worst teams in Football win half as much as the worst teams in baseball. Five teams posted winning percentages over 75%. The NFL has some non-cap related issues here ? namely the 16 game schedule, but it helps to put baseball in perspective. Imagine being an Oakland Raiders fan? Why even show up?

What about the playoffs? Since the Yankee dynasty was broken up in 2001, only five teams in the American League and four teams in the National League have failed to make the playoffs. Five years! Over 2/3 of baseball fans have had the opportunity to watch their team in October baseball in a very short period of time. I?m no expert on the NFL, but I?d wager that less than 2/3 of NFL teams in the past five years have made the post-season.


Winning in the playoffs? Since the Yankee dynasty ended, only three teams have managed to make two World Series ? the Cardinals, Yankees and the Red Sox, and only the Red Sox were able to win. The Giants, Marlins, Yankees, Angels, Diamondbacks, Astros, Rockies, Red Sox, Cardinals, and White Sox are a diverse group. They come from large, medium, and small markets.

What would a salary cap do? Would a salary cap really make the Pirates competitive? No it wouldn?t. The only thing that would have made the Pirates competitive would have been intelligent management. Salary cap or not, poor organizations aren?t going to win ballgames. Teams that start Angel Berroa at shortstop for years, insist upon treating Mike Sweeney like a real hitter, or throw in Oliver Perez to a trade without the opposing GM asking for him are going to lose, and it?s their own fault. It sucks to be a fan watching your team waste away, but it has nothing to do with a salary cap. The Marlins are still going to maintain a pitifully low payroll compared to their competition whether their competition is spending 120 million or 95 million.

Eventually, smart people will replace stupid people in the Pirates organization, and stupid people will replace smart people in the Braves organization. It?s the nature cycle of baseball. We?re seeing one smart GM?s work with the Dodgers being dismantled by a stupid one, distributing talent throughout the league. We saw the Colorado Rockies build a team on scant resources into a World Series contender ? one that should stick together for a few more years at least. We?re seeing the Arizona Diamondbacks, Milwaukee Brewers and Tampa Bay Devil Rays assemble potential powerhouses, using young and talented players combine with good scouting and good timing.

They are able to do so because baseball?s current economic structure allows them to do so. Player development is cheap ? the salaries of two dozen scouts is often far less than the salary of one major league player. Returns on investment are high because young players are paid peanuts. Ryan Braun didn?t even make 380,000 dollars this year. Phil Hughes made less for the full season than Roger Clemens each start. Miguel Cabrera made half of what Scott Rolen makes. Clubs are able to control these players during the prime of their career ? the average free agent doesn?t hit the market until he is 28 or 29 years old.

Free agency is a gambler?s market. Teams spend a lot of money on often uncertain investments. Mike Mussina was paid 19 million dollars in 2006 at the age of 37 because when he was 31, he was among the game?s top pitchers. Teams can spend a lot of money, but the reality of long term deals often means teams end up with dead weight on their roster ? the Yankees have Jason Giambi, the Dodgers have Juan Pierre, the Athletics had Jason Kendall, and so on. Spending more money on free agents creates a system of diminishing returns ? decreasing monetary advantage.

Money isn?t the problem. Management is. Baseball teams are getting smarter, which is highlighting the differences between the good managers and the bad managers. The Rockies learned their lesson. The Devil Rays are learning their lesson. The Baltimore Orioles, Texas Rangers, and San Francisco Giants clearly are going the other way. But that?s an issue for another day. It has nothing to do with a salary cap. Can?t we stop being distracted by this issue and focus on baseball?

Comments by Ken Rosenthal and his recent column - Yanks' deep pockets set them apart

Quote:http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7506206?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

The Yankees treat the luxury tax in the same brazen way that certain celebrities treat rehabilitation centers ? as part of the price for maintaining a gaudy lifestyle.

They check in, check out and proceed just as before.

The Yankees' signings of Alex Rodriguez, Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada for a combined $372.4 million weren't outrageous simply because each of those players will be 33 or older in the first years of their contracts.

No, they were outrageous because the actual costs will be far greater if the Yankees remain over the luxury-tax threshold for the durations of the three players' contracts ? and if the tax remains in effect after the current labor agreement expires in 2011 and throughout Rodriguez's entire 10-year deal.


This is the reason Why Baseball needs a salary cap by Stupid writer and Yankee hater named Ken Rosenthal. He's blaming Yankees for ruining baseball like this stupid column He wrote today. He didn't mentioned the Redsox at all because they do it the right way of course. Where's Double Standard? Yankees are mimicking Redsox says Rosenthal by by developing young talent with frightening efficiency? Are you kidding me? Is this joke? Yankees aren't copying Redsox. It's other way Around , f*ck*ng nimrod... The Yankees had homegrown players than Redsox. The Redsox are bunch of mercenary n their team. The Yankees brought up Wang,Cano,Cabrera in 2005. Pedrioa was called up this year. Who won The World Series this year ? Oh that's right Boston Redsox did, They beat lousy small market Colorado Rockies and Cleveland Indians.


Mr.Rosenthal never understand to be Ny Sports Fan like Myself. The Yankees are only team in NY that give me happiness and joy as Fan and they win... Others sports team in Ny like NY Jets and NY Knicks are obsolete joke. How many years since NY Knicks and NY Jets won a championship?. It's about nearly 80 years. Thanks to Larry "Lucifer" Lucchinno and Mr.John Henry took away happiness and joy as NY baseball fan when Redsox in 2004 .

The Bostons sports fan must be living in heaven right now because Pats are winning and undefeated, going to four super bowl title. The Celtics are back from dead and probably win their 17 nba title. Lastly, The Redsox just won their second world series title in last four years.

From reading The Article, Mr. Rosenthal it seems He doesn't want Yankees getting Santana and Let Redsox have him of course. They already have Beckett as their Ace and have better rotation than Yankees. They just won the world series

In that case Mr.Rosenthal , Redsox should let go Varitek in 2004 and don't offer him a contract. then.

If Posada leaves who will replaces him?


For crying out loud. Redsox gave Lugo a four year and Jd drew a five year deal.


Everyone blames the Yankees for driving free agent prices up, but imagine if they were the team to stand up to Boras and stop taking his sh#t.


The Media use The Yankees like a punching bag , hated and meanwhile Redsox gets the love fest. The Redsox have second highest payroll in baseball. How do Drays , Royals and their fans feel ?


The Yankees are big bad Yankees. How about the Redsox? The Redsox are now The Big Bad and New Bully on the block other than Yankees.

What year did Yankees won the World Series ? Did Yankees management waited patiently all this years without winning the World Series?.... Everyone hates Yankees, loves the Redsox so much.. It seems the Yankees are disrespected all these years from Media .. I think media scared of The Redsox, and doesn't have guts to kill them or either They're working with Redsox organization.. with Boston Mafia something. They love to criticize Yankees and kill them.

If you don't count Jeter and Posada, Rivera out of Yankees Payroll, What's the Yankees payroll will be? All these Players came out from Yankees Farm system, now Every Yankees haters complained how much they make. Against Redsox, The Media don't bring up their Payroll like Lugo, Lowell, Varitek, Jd Drew, Coco Crisp and Manny Ramirez.

Spoiled Arrogance are Redsox Fans and Bostons Fans.. The Redsox won in 2004, yet they still moaning and groaning that One championship is not enough... Enough with Redsox mentality that They're Underdogs. The Celtics won 16 championships and Pats won 3 supebowls , How would you feel as Jets and Knicks Fans like myself who never won a championships near fourty years. The Redsox are new Evil Empire thanks to Larry "Lucifer" Lucchinno. The Yankees have homegrown players than Redsox. Redsox are bunch of Mercanaries on their team. Don't tell Big Papi and Manny came up from Redsox Farm system. Also, Lugo, Jd Drew, Beckett, Matsuzaka, Crisp, Lowell [former Yankees farmhand]. I think Jason Varitek "aka Captain of Redsox" should not be captain instead of Trot Nixon which Redsox management decided not to resign.

The Red Sox are obsessed with the Yankees while Yankee fans are merely REACTING TO Red Sox fans. Who started with the anger and hatred and obsession? Who has more reason to envy the other team? Obviously the Red Sox have more reason to envy the Yankees and have been doing so for 100 years. So the Red Sox won in 2004 and are in the World Series. Big deal. It's not enough for the Yankees fans to envy and obsess over them more than Baltimore or Toronto or the Angels. The Red Sox started this relentless obsession while the Yankees are defending themselves. After all, when someone despises you and tries to hurt you and is obsessed with pulling you down, just because you're better than they are, it's natural to defend yourself and react with anger. And that's exactly what's happening between the Yankees and Red Sox. But the Red Sox started this 100 years ago and haven't let up since.


Competitive balance IS good for baseball.


There was competitive balance before 1997, just like there is competitive balance after 1997. Just look at the facts:

World Series Champions, 1987 - 1997

1987 - Minnesota
1988 - Los Angeles
1989 - Oakland
1990 - Cincinnati
1991 - Minnesota
1992 - Toronto
1993 - Toronto
1995 - Atlanta
1996 - New York Yankees
1997 - Florida

Is that not competitive enough? Oakland, Florida, Minnesota, Cincinnati? These are the current welfare queens of baseball, raking in tens of millions in free cash every single season, which makes losing in 2007 as profitable as winning a World Series a decade earlier. If you're an owner simply looking to line your pockets that's the ultimate win-win situation.

AL East Spend: Internally Developed vs. Acquired Players

http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=564

Thanks to Mike Pagliarulo for Breaking down The Al East teams

Here?s a (rough, unscientific) look at how much money teams in the AL East are spending on players developed internally versus players acquired via trade/free agency. Not sure how much this comparison tells us, but it?s interesting that the Red Sox have a much higher spend % on acquired players than the other teams. Updated 11/21/07.

In that case , Redsox should let go Varitek in 2004 and don't offer him a contract..

If Posada leaves who will replaces him?


For crying out loud. Redsox gave Lugo a four year and Jd drew a five year deal.


Everyone blames the Yankees for driving free agent prices up, but imagine if they were the team to stand up to Boras and stop taking his sh#t.


Enough with the Payroll

Okay, fine. The Indians beat the Yankees, and they have a much smaller payroll. So what? Payroll has never guaranteed anything, it just helps ensure more talent. The most talented teams often dont win the world series.

Spending more doesn't guarantee anything in any business. You can spend the most on advertising, but that doesnt mean your product will outsell a competitor. And you know what? You wont see the company that spent less on advertising wont gloat or mention the difference in spending if they made more of a profit.

When the Yankees won it all in 98, were you all praising them for having the 2nd highest payroll?

The Indians beating the Yankees isnt impressive because of the dispairity in payroll. Its impressive because they are young and less expierenced, and the Yankees have so many great players. Its impressive because the Yankees have the best player in the game, and hall of famers all over the roster.

I dont get why fans are using payroll as something to rub in the face of Yankee fans. Do you really think it bothers the Yankee fans that their owner invested more money in their team? All they care about right now is the fact that their season is over. They arent thinking about how many millions were spent. And it wasnt even a failure. They drew 4 million fans, made the playoffs, won 90+ games...24 teams WISH they had a season as bad as the Yankees. Are the White Sox happy they only spent 108 mil? Are the Rangers happy with how much they spent?

Im guessing if youre bringing it up, you probably think baseball needs a salary cap. But doesnt this season prove it doesnt? Or make for a difficult argument? D Backs 52 mil, Rockies 54, Tribe, 61 mil. Brewers made a heck of a run, 70 mil. Mets, Dodgers, White Sox, M's, Tigers, O's, Giants, Cards..all over 90 mil, and didnt make the playoffs.

SO be happy they lost. But to bring up payroll? Thats just silly. They play within the rules, so it isnt unfair. It might be time to change the rule, but the Yankees arent cheating. And they are in the playoffs every year, how many teams can claim that? How many fans have seen their favorite players have to move on becaues the team couldnt afford it? Look at how many home grown players they kept for 10 or more years. Jeter, Mo, Posada, Bernie. We all wish our teams did that with their best home grown talent.

I have beef with the Yankees about payroll too..because they overpay their own players, and that drives up salaries for everyone else. But t hats not their problem, thats MLBs problem. You dont like the structure, thats fine. Neither do i. But thats baseballs fault, not the Yankees. Glad they lost? Ok, enjoy the fact that a team with 4 Hall of Famers just fell. Take it to mean anythings possible. But to focus on the money that team spent? Thats dumb, sorry, it just is.

Jeter's contract was so large b/c of Tom Hicks
Yankees offered Bernie his contract in response to what the Red Sox offered him.
Rivera got what guys like Robb Nen got, and so on.

The Yankees never set the market, they went along with it.

Salary Cap in Baseball.
As a Yankees Fan, I want Salary Cap in Baseball Once a for All just to shutup Yankees haters and Media. Every Media and The Yankees haters criticizing yankees for buying pennants and championships thru free agency. Yankees needs to prove doubters and Yankees haters wrong that They can win thru building thru farm system and salary cap in place.. Is it me that Media loves the Redsox more than Yankees because of "Underdog" role and lovable losers mentality until they won a championship in 2004? And Fact The Yankees are Evil and Redsox are good since Mr Larry Lucchinno aka Lucifer shouted "The Yankees are Evil Empire" around the World.... The Yankees haters can't stand NY and what Ny represent for because They're Jealous . City like Ny has everything to offer unlike other cities in Usa. How would Larry aka Lucifer feel a team like Jets and Knicks haven't won championship for fourty years while Celtics won 16 championships and Patriots won 3 ? Every Boston sports Fan still moaning and crying because They haven't won championship for years.


Please Mr.Selig, I want a Salary Cap in Baseball once a for all . I had enough of media critizing Yankees more than Redsox... "Everyone loves Redsox because they do it in right way. Like spending on Matsuzaka, Jd.Drew, Lugo. Eric Gagne... I bet Manny and Ortiz came thru Redsox farm system. Jason Varitek doesn't deserved The Captain since He never came up thru Boston Organization. He was traded from Mariners Organization along with Derek Lowe on Heathcliffe Slocumb trade.

"This deal is done - Santana is a yankee"

"G.H. Hecks, why do you say this? Has it actually been confirmed, or are you theorizing?"

Sorry Ellis - I shouldn't state it as fact. I am theorizing but I doubt it goes any other way

Arcthelad09: longest, post, ever.

Yanks and Red Sox are both pure evil. And the Cubs are trying to get there.

Arcthelad09, doesn't seem like the Yanks have bought any pennants for awhile...

I am a Yankee/Sox hater, but I am rooting for the Yanks to get Santana. Bopstonians have become obnoxious of late. Enjoy your sports Bostonians, because the one thing you can never brag about is the women that live in your city...YIKES.

dissapointing. Can't they trade Kennedy instead?

1. Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera alone are too high a price to pay (not to mention the $20m per year) ... I hope this deal falls apart during contract extension talks

2. Even though I am a Yankee fan, I believe there should be a salary cap in baseball. It should be set higher than what 2/3 of the teams are spending but, it should exist. However, if that was to be put in place, the visiting teams affected by salary caps should receive 10% of the ticket revenue generated by their appearance versus non-salary capped team.

I would stick to my guns if I was the Yanks no Hughes and package around Kennedy and Melky.

If need be, let Boston get Santana and sign him and Beckett to $20-25M a yr contracts.

I believe Hughes is something special and better than Santana at $25M per year for six years.

Outside of Santana and Haren who else is on the market for trade.

Trade Mussina for Prior (both are risks)

Is Peavy set to hit the market next winter?

Not until after 2009

To all the fans that say including Hughes is not enough:

"Thank you walkoff...my point exactly...The red sox four man package(even with crisp in t) is still more appealing than Hughes, melky and a prospect"

This is why I see you being wrong. Yes, Melky and Coco can be considered equal, disregarding the salary. You have to take into account though that Melky is young and could improve, while Crisp is at about as good as he can get, and he isn't bad. {The next problem I see with what you are saying is in regards to Masterson. Why would the Twins want him? He is a sinker ball pitcher, and we all know that is the last thing they want with that bouncy ball surface of theirs. Masterson could be a #3-#5 man in a rotation yes, but that is also what the Twins are not looking for. Also he won't be starting the season in the majors, and I'm assuming they would want an immediate impact guy after losing Santana. if he were to be included}. They need a #1 guy. Another problem with the Sox package is Bowden, he is young, which is a plus, but he is also in the low levels (probably AA to start '08 again). He is going to need to drastically improve his AA numbers before he is even considered for any kind of promotion. I can see the Twins not wanting him because he is not an immediate impact guy. Also at this point he doesn't seem close to a top of the rotation guy, more like middle or back end. Neither Masterson nor Bowden are sure things either, while you can state the case that Hughes, Kennedy, and Buchholz have a much better chance. Lester is an option for them, but again not as sure thing as HBK. I like him, he has good stuff, but not #1 stuff. Hughes on the other hand has been one of the most highly anticipated arrivals to bigs, and when he was healthy his stuff was excellent. He like Buchholz has a chance to be a star and lead a rotation, not to mention the fact that he/they has/have already semi-broken into the majors. Finally the addition of Jed Lowry to the trade did nothing for me. He seems to have a pretty limited ceiling. He strikes as a Julio Lugo type hitter, good enough to be a major league starter, but far from a star. The Yankees would most likely include Tabata or Jackson here, who both are far superior ceiling wise to Jed. Not to mention Jackson just turned 20 and Tabata is still 19. If the Red Sox wanted to throw in a good position player (which they won't because Theo seems to think spare parts are fine) then they would need to throw in someone like Lars Anderson or something to equal either of those 2. I think the Red Sox deal is inferior to that of the Yankees unless, they include Clay or Jacoby or both, depending on what the Yankees put (hopefully not Kennedy too). I feel I made a strong argument for why this is the case.

Wow ... a couple marathon posts.

Yankee fans don't seem to understand why other fans are so upset about the money they spend.

Look, it's quite simple. The Yankees resigned 2 aging, way past their prime individuals. The average amount of their salary would be the highest salary of about half the teams. Yet, the Yankees do it without thinking twice.

A-Rod hits the market. No problem, the Yankees pay the guy $30+m for 10 years.

Best pitcher in baseball hits the market, the Yankees will trade for him and then sign him to the largest pitching contract in baseball.

The fact is, people hate the Yankees because they are playing on a slanted field. Any mistakes they make can be fixed. Any weaknesses they have can be addressed. Not because they run a great organization, rather, they can go out and buy repairs other teams can't.

It is a miracle that they haven't won every year. It shows two things: (1) in a short series anything is possible and (2) the Yankees don't run the most effective organization.

Talk all you want about home grown talent. You can point to Posada/Rivera/Jeter but how about a prospect in the past DECADE. Cano? Wang? Not like the Yanks have a history of developing talent.

Finally, people hate the Red Sox as much. They are a tick lower though because they spend less money. They have also been an underdog for so long. Over the next few years this underdog perception will continue to erode and people will really look at them as Yankees lite. Maybe not as EVIL, but just about.

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