Johan Santana Rumors

"The longer this has gone on, the more obnoxious the Red Sox fans have become."

You know, yankman27, I'm getting pretty sick of everyone making general statements about entire fanbases. I'm a Red Sox fan and I go out of my way to try and be objective, and I f***ing hate when I get lumped in with the worst jerks of the fanbase. There are some pretty damned obnoxious Yankee fans too. So I'd appreciate it if you'd leave off the blanket statements.

Ok, my last thing - my prediction is that sometime at like noon tomorrow, Minnesota accepts Hughes, Cabrera and Marquez for Santana. Goodnight and may you know what happens before I do.

what i said doesnt include melky cabrera of course, he has been around longer, but i think ellsbury is already held in higher regard then him now anyway

ONE FINAL POST: Never use the words "New England" and "Red Sox" in the same sentence when describing a population of fans. It's not a RULE to root for them around here. Anybody in southern NE knows what I'm talking about. So keep the boards clean tonight.

it is when your a sox fan, and i think it is to the twins, especially if they take the sox deal, dont you?

because if the twins take the sox deal, it means they wanted a leadoff center fielder more then a #1 starter.

04forever,

in this new baseball economy nothing is more valuable than a #1 starter that is under your control for 4 years or so dirt cheap

Yeah even though Ellsbury fits a need better for the Twins, when you have a guy with ace potential thats probably the hardest commodity to find.

ozzie, i know you didnt just project hughes as a "#1" starter. lets see how he does in a full season when he is eligible for the ROTY

94forever,

Everyone with any sense of what prospects are projects Hughes as a #1. The guy has electric stuff, 3 above average pitches and amazing control.

"Hughes has it all, with the combination of stuff, feel and command to profile as a No. 1 starter."
-2007 Baseball America Prospect Handbook

if the sox were to actually go as far as to offer Lester+ellsbury id be very upset , because in turn we would either have to stick with crisp , or go out and sign rowand or A. jones and add a ton more money to the payroll. If the yankees really do pull out of it by the end of tommorow , than Lester+crisp+lowrie+bowden/masterson , may very well be the offer that the twins end up accepting , since there would be no reason for the sox to keep ellsbury in the deal , and the twins no matter what people say HAVE TO TRADE HIM since he has now said he wont wave his NTC mid season....

ok i can see i have upset like 4 yankee fans. but guys, let me ask you this, is the reason why, maybe just maybe, hughes, "the holy grail of pitching", not taken by the twins right away maybe had to do with them not wanting him, or maybe seeing if the sox would ante up and put in ellsbury, which is probably what they really wanted? nevermind we can trade them for stuff they want. ellsbury takes center, lowrie plays short, and bowden to the pen. they dont need or want a POTENTIAL #1 starter, they have that in Loriano already.

ozzie, no im not a scout, but, then again neither are you. as a matter of fact, we are the same, opinionated bloggers who dont really know anything about trading and what not because we will never trade anyone ourselves. your opinion is just as stupid/smart as mine. kind of calling the kettle black friend

BTW - call me jaded but Hanks "deadline" means squat to me. No credibility at all ... period.

well ozzie my friend, we are going to find out soon...

As I made abundantly clear, I am RED SOX fan and I don't think Ellsbury is more valuable with Hughes. 04Forever, I just don't think you understand the concept of prospects in trades. Yes, the Twins might find Ellsbury more valuable than Hughes. But the reason why they didn't just blindly accept the Yankees offer with Hughes is because there are OTHER PLAYERS INVOLVED. It isn't just Hughes straight up for Santana. They are trying to run a team, and they know they have to think things out and weigh all their options.

So I don't think you are really 100% wrong, but when you say things like "they dont need or want a POTENTIAL #1 starter, they have that in Loriano already" it makes me wonder how much you understand what is going on here.

bisguess,

I would have normally agreed with you, but Hank has a point, at some point you have to stop and move on. If the Twins had the time to keep playing the Yanks and Sox against each other it's to their advantage. You have to draw a line at some point

No 04, we'll see if Bill smith is any good at his job. He made a nice move flipping Garza for Young and Hughes is worth alot more than Garza. So Even if a CF'er was such a requirement, he could flip Hughes for one hell of a CF. and if they don't want Melky, they're more than welcome to flip him over to my Cards :)

When you're trading a guy like Santana, the Twins are going to be all about maximizing return. Just because they may not "need" a potential #1 in Hughes, doesn't mean he's not more valuable. They can always flip him around for a piece they feel could be more valuable than Ellsbury. If they got Hughes, and decided they need an impact bat, they can always turn him around for a young impact bat(s) that address their needs at CF/SS, etc. What if they got Hughes, then sent him to Seattle for Adam Jones and Y. Betancourt. Not saying Jones/Lopez is more valuable than Ellsbury/Lowrie or that the M's would even do that deal, but its something the Twins may feel is necessary to maximize the # of impact young players they get this offseason.

And yes, if they trade Johan, I certainly believe they'll cash in all their chips and trade Nathan.

I really wouldn't mind keeping Phil Hughes at all. And ultimately, I like Melky at CF. In an outfield perspective, I'm much more comfortable with Damon in LF and Melky in CF than Damon in CF and Matsui in LF. I like Matsui DH'ing. Therefore, if the trade doesn't get done, I won't be heartbroken. I mean sure, we miss out on arguably the best pitcher out there; but then again, it should also be fun watching how the young kids from the Yankee farmhand turn out. We've already seen Joba and Hughes pitch pretty good, and I personally think Kennedy has the looks of a modern age David Cone. Call me crazy, but I like the Yanks' chances next year either way.

As a fan of the minor leagues, I have to agree with you captain. I like your minor league guys alot. by 2010, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Brackman and Horne could make one hell of a rotation

@04Forever:

"they dont need or want a POTENTIAL #1 starter, they have that in Loriano already."

The Red Sox have an established #1 already. So they don't need one? Why are they pursuing Santana then? Because the addition of Santana makes their team light years better, that's way.

The Twins had a #1 for years and they couldn't win a championship. Why? Because the rest of their rotation stunk. Then another #1 in Liriano came along and that duo was projected to be capable of winning a championship. Now they're dealing the former #1. Where does that leave them?

'We have a #1, so no thanks on the one you're offering us' makes no sense. I don't care what holes the team needs to fill.

If the Twins have such an abundance of young pitchers (none of whom are front-end guys), then they can package one or two of them together for a position player like they acquired Young for Garza. It makes more sense to grab position players with prospects like that. The Hall of Famer you use to acquire a -stud- young pitcher. And it's not just my blogger opinion that's attaching that value to Hughes. It's pretty much every scout in America. Some of them view Hughes as the best pitcher to come out of the minors in the last ten years. Not much less than Santana has a chance of getting that. And you're going to pass on that opportunity ... for Jacoby Ellsbury?

Hey, if the Twins do it, you're right and I'm wrong and I think Bill Smith has gotten his career off to a really bad start.

I think that if the Yankees cannot acquire a #1 type starter and Petitte decides to call it a career, they are going to be asking a lot of Hughes, Kennedy, and Chamberlain. I am not at all convinced that they can get 600 quality ML innings from those three in 2008. The depth that the Yankees possess in starting pitching is all very young. They will be taking a huge gamble if they don't add a major veteran.

thats what ive been saying kosh, this deal could go either way tomorrow morning, lets not get all bent out of shape. im probably wrong, will see.

god i love the offseason

Thats the thing. Im not all that convinced that Beane is desperate to move Haren. And if he does move him it won't be for cheap, he'll ask for a lot more than Hughes+Cabrera and another prospect. Have you seen Haren's contract? Yikes. I can't believe he'd give up Haren for less than a fortune.

My guy feeling is once The Angels finally get Miggy Cabrera, Beane will do the smart thing and finally go into rebuild mode rather than reload and move Haren and Blanton. While Haren isn't as good as Santana, he's almost as attractive because of the fact he will be under control for 3 more seasons.

Wow, that’s a lot of reading…

Did want to mention this post:

“@matsuzakasan
If you're going to insist on being nasty, I'm not discussing anything more with you. And I have reported your post to the admin.”

Kosh,
Did you really get him deleted? All his posts from here seem to be gone! Hehehe… Good for you!!!

Darkstar, you really seem to bring out the worst in people huh?

Well that's kind of a pointless comment, if he actually said it, which I doubt.

No other team has been mentioned for at least a week.

Posted by: ozziethesaint,

"Darkstar, you really seem to bring out the worst in people huh?"

Nah, never did get into it with him myself ~ he was just annoying, so its funny to see someone take action... :)

I really doubt Santana would veto a trade to a winning team who would pay him what he wants. Like say the Mets or the Angels.

I don't think Haren is nearly as interesting to the Yankees or Red Sox as a guy like Johan or even Bedard.

With Haren his biggest plus (outside of being a good pitcher) is his cost containment for THREE years. As much as any team would like to conserve money, cheap players are worth infinitely more to teams that are on a budget.

Haren's ideal match will be a talent rich team that is NOT cash rich. Santana limits the market by his dollars but ANY team can afford Haren. That's why I think the bidding will go up for a guy like that.

And Bedard is under control for 2 years but if he gets traded I'm sure the team will immediately discuss extensions. With Haren you have three years to work out some sort of a deal.

Also have to feel sorry for the Twins if this later rumor is true. They lose a ton of leverage if it really is only between the Yanks and Sox. If the offer stays at Cabrera/Hughes/B level prospect I say hold onto the guy and make a run for the playoffs this year.

Santana could change his opinion mid year or a contract extension might get worked out. In any event the deal really is Hughes for Santana (or Ellsbury for Santana) and that isn't nearly enough.

Twins, Hughes has already spent his rookie time on the DL. Before he was on the DL, he was throwing potential no-hitters. Like I said before, I have no problem with keeping Hughes and Kennedy. In fact, the more that the Santana trade talks keep going on, the less interest I hold in them. While I'd love to have Santana, I wouldn't be heartbroken at all in keeping Hughes and Kennedy, along with Joba and Wang. It's time for the future of the Yankees to step up and knock off the vets like Mussina and Clemens off. It's time for a new era in the Yankees system, especially with the new Stadium opening next year.

he threw ONE potential no hitter...so what? pitchers go into the 6th inning with a no-hitter all the time, it's not a huge deal. anibal sanchez threw an actual no-hitter as a rookie...now look at him. scott baker almost had a perfect game, does that make him a future ace? phil hughes is great, i'm not saying he isn't, i'm just saying ellsbury is going to be great as well, and fills two holes the twins NEED to fill, for a long time! add lowrie, a legit shortstop prospect, and i think it's worth more in the long run than hughes and a highly overrated melky cabrera. the Twins have NO offensive prospects coming up that they can rely on, however they have many pitching prospects that could end up helping the team for years to come. they NEED offense! they can get a pitcher or 2 in a deal for nathan. just my opinion.

but the Twins MUST take one of the offers, they can't win next year with Johan back, so get the most you can for him.

Are Yankee fans prepared for a few seasons with no playoffs?

I feel pretty comfortable guaranteeing that if 3/5th's of their rotation are rookies.

Even if Hughes/Chamberlin/Kennedy pan out, expecting a full 200IP each with ERA's around 4.00 is asking a lot. That's not taking anything away from how good they can be. It's just fairly rare for young pitchers to be dominant over the course of a full season. To expect 3 young pitchers to do that is asking a lot.

TheCaptain2

not to mention what he did the previous inning throwing the runner out at the plate (refresh my memory on who it was lol)

but as much as I hate to say it, I don't think Melky is underrated (oh nor is he overrated lol)

someone on another site told me they think the Red Sox lineup is better than the Yankees? can anyone care to explain that where the Yankees ranked first in EVERY MAJOR CATEGORY IN ALL OF BASEBALL LAST YEAR (Except Home Runs in which they were ranked 4th in, but they were 1st in the AL)

C- Posada easily better
1b- well hard to decide being there is no everyday starting 1b for the Yankees, so i guess Youlk
2b- Farily even
3b- Duhh A-Rod
SS- Jeter
LF- Manny
CF- This varies, you have coco/ellsbury and melky/damon
RF- Abreu
DH- Ortiz

Oh of course this is based on NOW, we dont kno about santana lol

but being that the lineups as of right now are the same as they were towards the end of last season, and since the Yankees were 1st in EVERYTHING but Home Runs, 1st in AL though...how do the Red sox have a better lineup?

To me Melky Cabrera is Endy Chavez. A little more pop, less glove. Same guy though, would be a great 4th outfielder i guess.

Posted by: bjsguess,

"Are Yankee fans prepared for a few seasons with no playoffs?
I feel pretty comfortable guaranteeing that if 3/5th's of their rotation are rookies.
Even if Hughes/Chamberlin/Kennedy pan out, expecting a full 200IP each with ERA's around 4.00 is asking a lot. That's not taking anything away from how good they can be. It's just fairly rare for young pitchers to be dominant over the course of a full season. To expect 3 young pitchers to do that is asking a lot."

...Great post ~ I've tried to say the same thing in a little less brunt way a couple times, but people really do just glance right over it as if it holds no merit. To think the Yanks will be able to insert even 2, let alone 3-4 rookies (yes, if Moose is bumped it could be up to 4 rookies to under 2 guys rather quickly) and see all of them posting sub-5.0 ERAs is being more than a little optimistic in my mind. And thats no matter who the rookies are really...

Darkstar are u kidding me! Yankees still have the better package and will probably land Johan. The Yankees would have a better rotation, it could be Santanna, Wang (2 20 game winners, Pettite (15 game winners), Moose, and Cahamberlin. The Bosox have who? Beckett, Schilling ( whose velocity is declining, Matsuzaka ( got whooped by the yankees all season), Wakefield (even to Moose), and Buckholtz( who only pitched 3 games and no hit the Oriols, I could do that the way they played in September.)

"Even if Hughes/Chamberlin/Kennedy pan out, expecting a full 200IP each with ERA's around 4.00 is asking a lot."

Actually, if the Yankees are smart then they won't LET Hughes, Chamberlain or Kennedy pitch 200 innings. They're still young, and their pitch counts need to be limited to prevent injuries. I would say don't expect more than a MAX of 180 IP from any of them, and they'll probably average about 160 IP each.

Couple of interesting updates in the metro-area papers. Is the Ellsbury for Lester swap as clear as it seems? Sherman with the Post first:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12032007/sports/yankees/deadline_day_475722.htm?page=0

"The Red Sox have offered a package that includes Jon Lester, Coco Crisp and minor league infielder Jed Lowrie. The Yankees view their offer as superior. According to one source, the Red Sox will not include Jacoby Ellsbury, whom the Twins covet, but ESPN reported yesterday that Ellsbury would be included, but not with Lester."

Not much to go on there, but Ed Price with the Neward Star-Ledger expands on that:

http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/11966610475610.xml&coll=1

"A second baseball official, from a team involved with Santana talks, said the Twins continue to pester the Red Sox to up their offer for Santana, even as the Sox insist they will also stand firm ...

... The second official, who asked not to be named because of the sensitive nature of trade discussions, denied an ESPN.com report that Boston relented and is willing to include outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury in a trade for Santana. The official reiterated what was reported last week: The Red Sox would put Ellsbury in the deal only if the Twins included a significant "extra piece" in addition to Santana."

So Ellsbury might only be on the table under the same conditions we were aware of before ... that the Twins include another player.

it sounds like all of the news stories came from the new york area, so i wonder if the yankee backers are trying to influence the santana market through words. media is more powerful than people think.

Thanks for the updates, Kosh.

I guess something should be happening on the Santana front sometime today, huh?

LENIII at the Strib reporting that the Twins deny that Santana has demanded to be traded only to the Yanks or Sox and, in fact, has not even submitted a list of acceptable teams.

Also, the Twins are upset with Steinbrenner's comments and are dealing with the tampering rule violation "internally". Not that Selig would have the balls to do anything about it anyway.

hahaha, I love how commenting about "A" leads Yankee-Homer fans to start ranting about "B"... (Oh and this in regards to yankfan1 and BaseballFanatic22 posting unrelated “are you kidding me” posts directed towards me, to a completely different topic than I was talking about…)

And yes Kosh, he seems to have been deleted completely ~ I didnt see any of his posts. Kinda bummed though, dont know what he said here to get himself booted ~ it must have been funny :)