Johan Santana Rumors

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 10:30pm: Yanks and Twins are haggling over the third guy - Twins want Horne or Austin Jackson per Jon Heyman.  The Yanks are apparently holding out on that front, trying to retain some dignity.  Peter Abraham says the Yanks will also slap a deadline on their offer and then turn their attention to Dan Haren. 

Concurrently, the Red Sox will only give up Ellsbury if they get more than Santana back.  How about making this thing a real blockbuster, getting Joe Nathan involved?  Imagine a 7-8-9 combo of Gagne-Nathan-Papelbon (if Gagne were to accept arb).  Peter Abraham is saying the Sox aren't serious though.

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 5pm: Ken Rosenthal says the Twins are asking for shortstop Alberto Gonzalez or starter Alan Horne as the third player from the Yankees.  Doesn't sound like Hughes + Kennedy is any kind of possibility.  The Yankees cracked and put Hughes in...unless the Red Sox crack and put Ellsbury in it seems like Santana will end up in the Bronx.

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 3:30pm: La Velle E. Neal III has a Santana update for us.  He says the Yanks are offering Hughes, Cabrera, and Ian Kennedy right now.  If that's for real, I think the Twins should accept.  However, Neal's assertion runs contrary to Jon Heyman's take - he says the third player will not be Kennedy, Alan Horne, or Jose Tabata. 

Meanwhile it sounds like the Red Sox are still pushing Coco Crisp over Jacoby Ellsbury.  Neal adds that the Mets might re-consider their stance on Jose Reyes, and that the Twins would prefer to ship Santana over to the NL.

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at noon: Buster Olney says the Yanks' upgraded offer is now on the table, but the Twins will meet with the Red Sox this afternoon to see if they can get Theo Epstein to include both Ellsbury and Buchholz.

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 10pm: It's been decided: the Yanks will put Hughes in their offer.  John Harper and Bill Madden feel that it was Brian Cashman who needed convincing.  Cabrera remains in the package, which will be rounded out by an additional pitching prospect.  This collection of youngsters apparently puts the Yankees in the lead for Santana. 

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 6pm: The Yankees' front office has been debating whether to surrender Phil Hughes in a trade for Santana.  Buster Olney reports that they're leaning toward doing it.  Melky Cabrera and one other prospect would be sent over as well.  The Yankees, as well as the Red Sox, are hedging their bets by talking to Billy Beane about Dan Haren at the same time.

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 11:25am: David Andriesen says the Mariners are not serious players on Santana.  However, Geoff Baker says the Ms have inquired but not made an offer for him.  However Baker talked to a friend of Santana's who indicated the ace wouldn't be jazzed signing a contract extension with a West Coast team.  U.S.S. Mariner recommends against a Santana acquisition.

FROM 11-30-07 at 8:45am:

I think it's time for a new Johan Santana thread.  We'll start today with a Peter Gammons report today on Mike & Mike In The Morning.  This comes from a trusted MLBTR reader.

Gammons favors the Yankees in the Santana derby, because he feels that Hank Steinbrenner could overrule Brian Cashman and include Phil Hughes in the deal.  Some feel that the Red Sox are just trying to pump up the price and would then turn to the A's to get Dan Haren.  Getting Haren instead of Santana may have the added benefit of not pissing off Josh Beckett about his salary.

Comments

[Mr_Punch]

What a fun Hot Stove!

[tolo316]

This is exactly what I've been saying all along. The Sox have no LEGIT interest in Santana - they don't NEED to give up what it'll take to get him because they already have Beckett as an ace. They're just doing whatever they can to build up the price....and it's going to work.

[Glanzer]

Can I take a moment to say that I'm actually tired of hearing about Johan Santana trade rumors, and I'm a huge Twins fan? It's been one after the other, day after day. One team appears to be in the lead, then a new contender emerges. Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Mets, Yankees... Now it sounds like the Twins might just want to hang onto him since no team is willing to part with its top prospects.

Well said Mr Punch... the Red Sox just won the World Series and their rotation looks great as is. Why on earth do they need Santana? Hey, if it will drive up the Yankees price, I'm all for it. But as a Twins fan, I want us to demand Cano and not Cabrera. I'm not buying into Melky Cabrera being a great player. He has name recognition because he plays in New York.

[jg]

Love it Theo.
cheaper, younger, and under control for more years. Slot it Haren at 2 and still have the best rotation in baseball.

[thedeuce]

I have said it before that although Haren is not as good as Sanatana he will still demand alot to get him in a trade. the guy is making peanuts for the next 3 years and Beane is not going to just trade him for nothing. Yea the A's could trade him and get some nice prospects and and players but why wouldnt he just trade Blanton get some nice prospects as well, keep your true ACE who is mad cheap, and then if anything trade him in the last year of his deal when teams will still trade alot for him cause hes only making at most like 8million.

[*Joba Rules*]

i say the yankees go get Haren, i rather surrender prospects for him instead of Santana, call me crazy but Santana is gunna get too pricey and i like Haren better.

[Jzzskins]

I heard Peter Gammons today on Mike & Mike and was surprised to hear him call the third minor leaguer the Red Sox were offering in their latest rumored offer a “STUD.” Who the heck could it be when they’re saying Clay Buchholtz and Jacoby Ellbury are untouchables? I remember names like Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie being thrown in with Lester and Crisp, I’m sorry Peter but these guys are not STUDS.

But don’t take my word for it, here’s what Kevin Goldstien had to say about them:

“Masterson’s sinker is not only the best in the system, it’s arguably the best in all of the minor leagues. The pitch comes out of his hand at 88-92 mph, touches 94, and features tremendous downward break. Making the pitch even more effective is his ability to locate it in any four quadrants of the zone. He has an intimidating presence on the mound, and his drop-and-drive style gives him some deception.
Masterson’s three-quarters delivery is a bit of a concern, as his causes him to often get around on his slider, taking away any depth from the pitch. He made some progress this year with a circle grip on his changeup, but it remains a below-average pitch. Because of these concerns with his arsenal, some project him to be a reliever down the road.
Perfect World Projection: Pitchers like Chien-Ming Wang, Fausto Carmona and Derek Lowe have proven that sinkerballers can have great success in starting roles. While Masterson is in that mold, he’s a notch below them.”

In my opinion He’s a Middle of the Rotation Guy… Pretty Much a younger Red Sox Version of Allan Horne without the health history…Horne does has the better secondary stuff.

“Lowrie is an on-base machine. His approach is highly advanced, as he works the count well, and recognizes which pitches he can drive into the gap. His makeup is off the charts--he’s a baseball grinder who plays and practices with an infectious all-out style. Defensively, he’s fundamentally sound and features a solid, accurate arm.
Scouts’ opinions of Lowrie vary wildly, with some seeing him as an everyday big league shortstop, and others seeing him as no more than a very good utility player. There is little doubt that with Lowrie’s average speed and slow first step that his range is a little short to play on the left side of an infield in the big leagues.
Perfect World Projection: A starting shortstop, though second base is more likely.”

In my opinion If Lowrie can up his range at short, which is highly unlikely B/C he will turn 23 this December he’s a decent prospect because he posted a 410 OBP in AA and 354 OBP in AAA while Slugging just over 500 in both stops last year. Definitely not a STUD more like a gritty second basemen destined for the bottom of the order on a Good Team.

Peter you’re a great hall of fame journalist Stop hyping the prospects on your favorite Team… It makes you sound like a SoSH message board member.

[carolina03]

santana to the yanks, cano, edwin encarnacion, and matt maloney to twins, ian kennedy and fanrsworth to the reds. The twins get two young position players who can step in and star right now. The yanks get Santana and keep Hughes/Chamberlain. The reds get a young #4 starter and a power arm in the pen that could suceed in the NL central.

[DunkinDonuts]

A couple things...

The Red Sox do not NEED Santana to be competitive, but they are not simply trying to drive his price up. Actually acquiring Santana would accomplish two things of independent significance: (1) It would cement their rotation with two genuine aces (which is a blessing, not a burden); (2) It would keep Santana away from the Yankees. Santana's presence in the Yankees rotation could tip the scales back in the Yankees' direction further than Red Sox ownership is comfortable letting it go without a fight. Rest assured they're not simply driving up the price; if they're sane, they legitimately do not want to see Santana in pinstripes, giving NY the playoff pitcher they've been lacking.

Also, I think Gammons is blowing this issue about Josh Beckett's salary out of proportion. Quite frankly, the implication that Josh Beckett needs to be paid more if another "ace" comes in implies that he will intentionally perform below his capabilities if Santana were traded to the Red Sox and extended. It's insulting. Schilling makes more than Beckett. Dice-K costs more than Beckett when his cost is spread out annually. Drew costs more. Lugo's salary is comparable. Enough.

[DunkinDonuts]

"In my opinion If Lowrie can up his range at short, which is highly unlikely B/C he will turn 23 this December he’s a decent prospect because he posted a 410 OBP in AA and 354 OBP in AAA while Slugging just over 500 in both stops last year. Definitely not a STUD more like a gritty second basemen destined for the bottom of the order on a Good Team."

I think people are underestimating just what it means for a middle infielder to slug over .500 in the high minors.

I also think people are losing sight of the fact that these trades proposed aren't for the best pitcher in baseball at reasonable cost over six years. They're for the RIGHT to PAY upwards of $22-25M per year for the best pitcher in baseball over the course of five, six, seven years. That's why the Red Sox aren't throwing Buchholz, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson, and the kitchen sink at the Twins. It's also presumably why people aren't physically slapping the mother-loving crap out of Yankees fans suggesting Melky + Kennedy + belly button lint should get it done.

[JimCrikket]

I like Gammons. He's a pro and he's got arguably the best and widest sources in the business. But he has always been a bit of a shill for the Red Sox and you have to take any report he gives that involves Boston with a grain of salt.

Of course NY needs Santana worse than Boston and in a normal business, Boston would not make nearly the effort to gain that asset that NY would. But "normal business" does not describe MLB and it certainly doesn't take the Red Sox/Yankee rivalry in to account.

I have to imagine Theo is laughing his ass off and Cashman is tearing his hair out as he tries to talk "sense" to yet another Steinbrenner.

Smith just needs to be patient and he'll end up naming his own price with the Yankees. If not, and assuming an LA team doesn't come forward with a great deal, he simply keeps Santana... with or without an extension.

[Jzzskins]

Well If the Yankees and Red Sox insist on keeping on their Top Prospects for Themselves; From the Twins Perspective, they should keep Johan try to contend for the fans who paid For Ebenezer Pohlad's new Stadium. If there out by July I'm sure they can get similair prospects for a rent an ace situation. Especially if either the Red Sox or Yankees are fighting for the pennant.

[ROBJ]

I am a big Redsox fan but I am starting to feel like everybody else in here. It is starting to get really aggravating having to listen to this Santana stuff all day every day. I wouldn't doubt if the Twins find a way to keep him and make the Skanks and Sox look pretty silly.

[PinstripePride26]

I thought gammons was a sux fan?....I really hope the yankees do not have to trade hughes to get santana.

[ProjectMayhem]

First off, Cano is not going anywhere for anyone at all. Also, if the Yankees deal Hughes they aren't including Kennedy as well in a deal but will probably include Tabata/Jackson along with Shelly Duncan, who was born to DH. And finally, I don't see NY making a deal for Santana this year but I do see them pushing hard to get Peavy from SD after this season...

[FineHamAbounds]

I hope the Yankees don't get Santana, or if they do, I hope takes the FA train out of town the next year. It's not good for baseball when the Sox and Yanks can vaccuum up all the high-priced players.

[fireforge]

The Red Sox and Yankees fans are delusional.

The fact they have the gall to think any of these young prospects who have yet to prove anything of significance in the MLB are untouchable.

We are talking about the best pitcher in baseball people. Almost a modern version of Sandy Koufax. The man is 28 years old, and barring injury a shoe-in hall of famer!

You are telling me These prospects are untouchable?? Unbelievable. Honestly, you are being delusional.

The Twins are not stupid. It will take Ellsbury and Bucholz, or Hughes and Cano for a deal to get done. The Twins will let him walk and take their pair of #1 picks if they don't get AT LEAST that value. They have had success with that route in the past, and will no doubt choose the draft picks over these crappy prospect offers being talked about now.

Yanks fans, are you honestly telling me you think Hughes is untouchable? He is not even close to a sure thing yet...Unreal, and I'm shaking my head.

I don't have any credible sources on this, but there seems to be a growing sentiment that the Twins might throw a blank check at Johan and put an end to this nonsense. MN is 14th or the 17th biggest market in the nation. Does that qualify as a small-market? I guess compared to the top 5 it does....The fact it has come to this is disgusting. Polhad is a billionaire twice over, worth bundles more than even Steinbrenner, and he has to be bamboozled into opening his wallet. This team is not in the red, that is for sure. Good grief.

What really cracks me up is that in 1987 and 1991 the Twins had the highest payroll in baseball. Funny how the miserly ways set in after that.

Sorry for rambling.

[Papelboner]

For all those getting sick and tired of the Johan rumors, here's an idea: Stop going to a baseball trade rumor site! That's the whole purpose of this website. To learn about possible signings/trades and then discuss them. What were you expecting?

[tolo316]

Well said, Pabelboner.

Additionally, for all the people who are tired of the Johan rumors, why bother to comment at all?

[patsfanatic83]

so how many people actually believe satana will get traded before the season, because the more this plays out it seems less likely to me.

[fireforge]

Don't get me wrong, I love prognisticating, I just think everybody is dreaming if they can load a bunch of maybe prospects onto the Twins, and hold on to their prized possessions. Like Bill Smith himself said after the Delmon deal, "To get something, you have to give up something."

[patsfanatic83]

common sense says that if the twins trade santana that nathan would have to go as well, so make that trade with the red sox, im not fond on coco crisp, yet he would be a good lead off hitter now that the twins have cuddyer, morneau, young and mauer who can drive runs in, then trade nathan to tdodgers for laroche and a prospect. make sense to anbody else?

[fireforge]

I like that line of thinking. Getting LaRoche for Nathan would be a good risk. Do you think the Dodgers would do it? I'm not sure how high they are on LaRoche at this point, but it sure would beat anything the Twinks have at 3rd. I love Joe Nathan, but he is 33, and an injury waiting to happen.

How about this? The Twins ship Nathan to the Brewers for Bill Hall and a mid-level prospect. Throw Hall at 3rd. Is there a way to package someone else on the Twins and get Corey Hart thrown in? I'm not sure who it would be since after the top 4 hitters, and the young SP crew, the Twins are a pile of dung.

[henry14theking]

Why LaRoche?

Why not ask for Kemp, park his butt in RF, and move Cuddyer back to 3B?

Kemp is a much, much better hitter than LaRoche and Colletti might be insane enough to do that trade.

[tolo316]

I'm pretty sure the ash conscious Twins would prefer LaRoche over Bill Hall (who's a stiff anyway). That said, do the Dodgers really need Nathan? They have Saito and Broxton, both of whom had very good seasons.

[walkoffblast]

"To get something, you have to give up something."

Yes, but when that something is the biggest contract ever handed out to a pitcher that the team will lose in a year then you do not exactly throw the farm away the same way you would for a player that is cost controlled for years to come. Any team willing to give a huge contract could just wait a year and keep the top levels of their farm in tact. This is why you will not see the red sox flinch but every Yankees fan is living in fear that the steinbrenners lock cashman in a closet and go for the win this year.

[patsfanatic83]

we have to remember that saito is now 37 years old as was injured for part of last year, nathan could lock the dodgers closer role for another 5 to 6 years

[patsfanatic83]

and also we would not go for kemp, but go for laroche because cuddyer is good at rf while he is horrendous at 3rd, i stood a year of that and he is locked at rf

[tolo316]

Wow. Didn't realize that Saito was that old. That said, isn't Broxton being groomed as "the closer of the future"? If not, would a LaRoche/Broxton for Nathan deal work? LaRoche just doesn't seem enough for the best closer in baseball or is it me?

[patsfanatic83]

if we would have wanted to move cuddyer back to third , dont you think that would've happened when we got delmon, who is a natural right fielder, thaty have young in left and cuddyer in right because they both have rocket arms and their assist numbers are great

[patsfanatic83]

i think it would have to be laroche/broxton for nathan/ and a low level prospect to even it out

[tolo316]

Makes sense. And I think the Twins would almost have to jump at that deal.

[patsfanatic83]

yeah it would help both teams for sure

[fireforge]

I like the potential of LaRoche, but once again, I would almost tilt in favor of Bill Hall, because we know we are getting a hitter that is at least average now, and has a decent price tag. I don't see the Dodgers going for Nathan. Seems like they are going to hand the job to Broxton (when Saito is done), and I don't blame them. The guy is an absolute beast.

I agree that Nathan could be the #1 closer in baseball, but I don't think you get the farm for him. Any other possibilities other than the Dodgers or Brewers?

[patsfanatic83]

rumors are with the giants yet i dont see what they could send back for nathan

[fireforge]

I agree, the Giants are brutal from a hitting standpoint. Although I am not very informed on their hitting prospects, so correct me if I am wrong.

[patsfanatic83]

and brewers have already said they donty want nathan hes too expensive

[Mr_Punch]

(about Lowrie)
"I think people are underestimating just what it means for a middle infielder to slug over .500 in the high minors."

Absolutely! Top prospect Brandon Wood didn't do it. Lowrie also bested Wood in OBP by .55. I'm not saying he has as high a ceiling as Wood, but its worth noting that in two very important statistical catagories, Lowrie bested Brandon Wood. He is no slouchof a prospect.

Lowrie will never hit 30 home runs, but he could develop 20 HR power. He will certainly hit plenty of doubles. He could be comparable to Michael Young (ceiling). Good average, good on base ability, doubles, questionable range at short. I wish the Sox weren't stuck with Lugo's contract so this kid could play.

[jehu]

Nathan for LaRoche/Broxton does make some sense. While Broxton is younger and cheaper, Nathan is a 'proven closer.' I don't think much of the idea closers are different from other relievers, but the Dodgers might.

[DunkinDonuts]

All the people flipping out at the fact that "untouchable" prospects haven't been included to date must know something I don't.

I missed the part in negotiations where the Twins offered to foot part of the bill for Santana's extension. These prospect offers are for ONE year of Santana, with a window during which the acquiring team wins the "privilege" of signing him to a $150M contract.

The Twins are not offering six cost-controlled years of the best pitcher in baseball. They're offering one year at reasonable cost, plus (presumably) a window for exclusive negotiation. Now while that window is important, it does nothing to mitigate Santana's eventual cost. If Santana doesn't like the extension offered, he can refuse, the deal breaks down, and the Twins are forced to keep him or peddle him to Team B.

Please, please stop acting as though the teams involved are throwing four pieces of crap at the Twins in exchange for a half-decade of FREE dominance.

[GoBoSox420]

And on that note, arm chair gm's need to realize their opinion is not fact

[jehu]

The dominance isn't "free" but it is exclusive-- by trading for Santana now, a team avoids a direct financial bidding war and will get Santana a little cheaper than after this season (also because it is an extension rather than a completely new deal- the year of security has some marginal value).

The bottom line is that if Santana hits the market, he's a Yankee, period. I understand that teams don't want to give up young players but, for everyone other than the Yankees, that is the only option.

[fireforge]

Hey, Johan is worth sending quality players over for the exclusive chance to sign. Let him hit the open market and it is anyone's guess.

The best pitcher in baseball worth that. He is proven, and that is hard to find.

[GoBoSox420]

It is not a foregone conclusion that Johan would be in pinstripes if he became a FA

And for the record I am not advocating a sox signing

I simply realize that other teams DO have the money and other teams COULD sign the guy if they wanted..

[henry14theking]

@DunkinDonuts:

Thank you! That's the reason I'm asking for Hughes to be kept out of these talks.

The question isn't:

Is Johan better than Hughes + whatever?

OR

Is Johan better than Lester + whatever?

The answer to those questions is yes, obviously.

The question is:

Is Johan 20-25 million dollars better every year for the next 6 than the trade package you're throwing out there?

[rossdfarian]

I'd like to see the Dodgers get Santana. They may have what it takes to do so. Then, Torre can pull him in the sixth inning with 1 baserunner and abuse Scott Proctor some more.

The real benefit ... he's no longer in the AL!

[fireforge]

The answer in my humble opinion, is yes, he is better. The best pitcher in baseball, changes the whole postseason picture for the Swankees.

[DunkinDonuts]

Fireforge,

If Santana hits the open market, sure, it's anyone's guess as to exact dollar amount, but we can predict a range. Upwards of $25M, but likely not much more. The right to negotiate with him exclusively doesn't mean that Santana is handcuffed. He will demand somewhere close to what he could get as a free agent, or he will torpedo the deal and return to the Twins.

[okojo]

I don't see the Dodgers getting Santana, for one reason: the Dodgers can't afford him. They can do the trade to appease the Twins, but not the contract extension to appease Santana and his agent.

Only the Yankees can give Santana the most money and the longest contract, unless some iconoclast owner or GM pulls a Tom Hicks. The Red Sox won't give him more than five years... probably four years with a fifth year option.

Right now, the Yankees need him much more than the Red Sox do, but the Yankees need middle relief even more.

I always feel Santana is going to sign with New York Yankees, because they will offer him the best terms. I think the Red Sox trade offer is the best right now for the Twins compare to the Yankees, because they can flipped two of the four for another top rate player, if need be, but if the Yankees offer Hughes and Cano, they will seal the deal and appease all parties. Kennedy and Cabrera is not going to cut it, it has to be Cano and Hughes or if the Yankees want to throw some others, Jackson in the mix for a 2-4 player deal.

[darkstar1661]

“Kemp is a much, much better hitter than LaRoche and Colletti might be insane enough to do that trade.”

…Not a huge deal, but I just wanted to say that statement isn’t really true, at all…

LaRoche has shown both better patience and power in the minor leagues. The only thing he hasn’t done is show the power in the MLs yet so this perception is out there. Going into 2007 LaRoche was the #19 ranked prospect in all of baseball (much higher then Kemp) and he plays Plus-3B. Kemp is very, very good as well ~ but LaRoche is probably a tad higher on the "total package" ability list and equal at worst…

And like someone else mentioned ~ just because Johan could be a FA doesnt mean the Yanks just get him. The highest paid pitcher in baseball is in SF and the highest previous contract ever offered (before ARods new deal) was from Tex. You never know which team would offer an insane amount to get possibly the best pitcher we have seen in 20 years...

[J.L.]

Yes.. the Dodgers are just DYING to give away LaRoche AND Bro when we already have one of the best closers in baseball and a stud in waiting...OK. I agree with darkstar if LaRoche is healthy he's the Dodgers best young hitter and plays 3rd base well.

[trek81]

The 4 teams should combine the 2 big trade. This is f'n genius, Each team gets:

Minny: Lester, Wood, Lowrie, Crisp
Fl: Ellsbury, Kendrick
Angels: Miggy
Sox: Santana, Conger(Tek's replacement)

[rossdfarian]

Trek ... who do the Sox get to play the outfield if you give up both Centerfielders? Rowand? Andruw?

[fireforge]

I think you would have to swap MN and FLA around. The Twins would want Ellsbury and Kendrick intead of the group of Maybe's you are giving them.

Wood worries me. The guy has no disciple, albeit he is young, I know.

God forbid the Twins get Coco Crisp. That would be nightmare.
From how it sounds they want to avoid him like the plague.

[Not Joe Morgan]

I love how all these Sox and other baseball fans talking about how "Cashman must be flipping out trying to avoid trading Hughes/Cano" and saying Yankees fans are all "terrified another Steinbrenner will overrule logic" and so on.

(I'm kidding. I don't love it. I hate it because you are all completely correct. This sucks.)

[Papelboner]

Post of the day goes to..... Not Joe Morgan!

Got a kick out of that one.

[daBigNY]

I'm not a Mets' fan but this is just a dumb trade to me. lol. That's why their the Mets. lol

[Papelboner]

And I agree, the Dodgers should have ZERO interest in trading LaRoche/Broxton for Nathan. That just doesn't make any sense for them.

[toshiro]

I think the Twins will stand pat in the end. Johan is the only thing that will allow them to contend next year. These prospects may or may not pan out. As a small market team, you gotta use the talent while you have it. If they're slipping towards the trade deadline, they could deal him to a desperate Yankee/BoSox team. Who knows, maybe a miracle will occur and he'll decide to stay in Minn.

[NyYankeeDynasty]

Simply put. the mets are out of the running becuase dead honestly they're farm system SUCKS. and the redsox, well lets be honest i as a yankee can admit that they would have a KICK ASS rotation with the addition of john but where are they getting all this money? nobody on that team is like a reyes or a wright on the mets who isnt getting paid too much so they have the room

[Not Joe Morgan]

John Henry has plenty of money; I wouldn't worry about that.

[Not Joe Morgan]

Also, they're paying low money at the 1B, 2B and CF positions next year. And closer. C'mon.

[GoBoSox420]

did you just ask where are the redsox getting all this money?

Wow

just wow

[scribbletone]

"But where are they getting all this money?"

You obviously have never been to the city of Boston. Its almost disguisting how much they love the Red Sox. I personally think it borders on creepy

[GoBoSox420]

I still dont get why the twins would want yet another ofer in addition to melky

[bjsguess]

doesn't border on creepy ...

it is creepy :)

[henry14theking]

F&*K!

Keep Hughes out of this goddamnit.

[tolo316]

If Hughes is included, the Yankees win....at least, in Hank Steinbrenner's eyes.

[Andrew]

If Hughes is included, it better be a Hughes/Melky/C-prospect (like White, or Dan McCutchen at most).

[henry14theking]

It'll be a win... but for once, just once I'd like them to keep the young guy with potential instead of trading him away for another 20 million dollar contract.

I hate what the front-office has become.

[04Forever]

so would the only difference in the deal be replacing ian kennedy with phil hughes, or do the twins want both?

hughes/kennedy/cabrera/1-2 others

or

hughes/cabrera/1-2 others?

[tolo316]

I understand that Hughes has potential and all that, but the Yankees need a bona fide ace. They can't honestly go into the season with a rotation of Wang, Mussina, Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy and expect to compete with the Sox rotation of Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling, and Haren, who I believe they are going to end up with after everything is all said and done. In addition, the core of the team - Jeter, Posada, Matsui, Damon, Abreu, and even A-Rod - aren't getting any younger. This team is built to win NOW, not three or four years from now.

But that's just my opinion.

[henry14theking]

@04Forever:

There's no way its both of them. Its one.

@tolo:

I understand. I actually wouldn't mind finishing 2nd or missing the playoffs for 2 years if it meant a better, deeper team.

I thought they should've let ARod go for example.

[04Forever]

idk, the whole dan haren thing is pretty quiet, i havent really heard about him being actively shopped like santana is, i dont see a haren/boston trade going down or even being talked about until the smog settles after this deal, if the yankees retain santana.

[daBigNY]

Hughes in this package is a loss for the Yankees. Why not give them a fourth prospect and just send kennedy?

[04Forever]

hughes is asking alot, but the fact that the yankees are "thinking about" and how hank has his fathers insanity, makes me think that they are going to get santana and make the best right now team they can build.

dabigny, the reason why is because they dont want a fourth, they WANT hughes, hes the conerstone of the deal to make it work

[04Forever]

besides, youll get to keep ian kennedy, yankee fans love him sooooo muuuuch

[bjsguess]

They are built to win now. If they really wanted to go with the youngsters and reduce payroll they would have had a different strategy with ARod/Posada/Rivera.

They would have been in great shape 2-3 years down the road going with youth. They would have core talent developed and an incredibly flexible payroll.

Unfortunately, they have to win this year. You can't have a payroll around $200m and not make the playoffs. The whole youth movement sounded nice but Yankee suits (and their fans) got nervous and caved into handing out large contracts to old players. Now if they move Hughes + others youngsters for Santana it will further erode their youth movement.

It's fine for the Yankees to do this. I just don't want to hear about their new, sound, fiscal approach to running a ball team. They are still buying championships (or at least trying to buy championships). They remain the most Evil Empire (closely followed by the Bo Sox).

[04Forever]

go to the "did we miss anything" post, the newest one, the yankees included hughes! there is proof

[JD]

The Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, etc will never have fiscal responsibility when it comes to filling out their rosters because they always have opportunities to sign big stars; smaller markets can only afford to do that for 1, maybe 2 of their homegrown stars (like Pujols and STL, for example)

[JD]

Go check out the latest (comment-based) post because theres a lot of Santana-Hughes delibiration over there.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

That is so true, the Cardinals are strapped for cash. They are the epitomy of sound fiscal responsibility.

90million on average over the last 3 years.

Does anybody on here think J.D Drew couldn't beat a 4 year 56 million dollar contract if he was a free agent right now?

[okojo]

"You obviously have never been to the city of Boston. Its almost disguisting how much they love the Red Sox. I personally think it borders on creepy"

It is not that Boston loves the Red Sox, It is the entire New England region. Pretty much everyone in New England follows the Red Sox, except the region west of New Haven to Greenwich which is more Yankee territory.

When George HW Bush campaigned in New Hampshire in 1988 NH primary, he brought along Ted Williams, and guess who everyone wanted to see? Go anywhere in New England, and everyone has an opinion about the Red Sox. Why the Red Sox is such a money maker is how they are ingrained in the entire New England region, and it shows how any team wants to get its brand image strong in the regional market, like how the Cubs have made their brand throughout much of the midwest.

It is creepy? you bet it is creepy, it is like dealing with a cult. My father still remembers when how Pesky held the ball that let Slaughter scored like it was yesterday in the 1946 World Series.

I grew up as a die hard Red Sox fan, but if I lived in New England, I would probably be a Twins or a Indians fan, just not to join in the cult so seriously. I also was less enthuse for the Red Sox during the 1990s during the Dan Duquette reign, when he didn't re- signed Clemens.

What the Sox was curse for so many years wasn't the Bambino, it was bad management and bad owners, (Yawkey who didn't signed Robinson or Willie Mays)

Right now, the World Series trophy is going around New England as some sort of religious relic to appease the faithful. The Red Sox should be called "The New England Red Sox".

[JD]

Heyt IM A NEW ENGLANDER and im not a Sox fan, AND I HATE WHEN PEOPLE LUMP US IN WITH BOSTON !!!!!!!!!! Im from Connecticut, and the town i was born in, the city hall steps - get this - are exactly half way between Fenway and the Stadium. THATS cool. Oh yeah, only Vermonters and Massachussetss-whatevers are bogus for Boston. We are split on NYY/BOS here, and NY isnt far.

[JD]

I would like to formally file a petition against using the words "New England" and "Red Sox" in the same sentence from here on. They are not related. That's like saying that New York/Pennsylvania is Yankees territory; it aint.

[JD]

LoL just kidding but seriously i hate being referred to as a "New Englander"

[Not Joe Morgan]

"i havent really heard about him being actively shopped like santana is"

Beane didn't call you?

[Hipster]

NEWSDAY reports that the Yankees offered the Twins Hughes, it's official.

check it out.....

[Jzzskins]

This is just my gut feeling... I know everyone wide eyed Yankee fan will disagree with me but i would part with Chamberlain Before Hughes. I think Joba has the higher ceiling but has a longer way to go to reach his potential as a Starter than a short reliever. I just remember watching Hughes during the playoffs and after he settled in He really looked like the best pitching propect in baseball. Being an Ace is not about here it is can you hit... Its about setting up hitters to hit your pitch the first second third and fourth time through the order. In my opinion Hughes is better equiped to do that over the long haul.

[TheSchmaranz]

I'm still trying to figure out what these teams are seeing in Melky Cabrera. Great 4th outfielder, nothing more.

[henry14theking]

@Jzzskins:

Joba's always been a starter. His velocity stays deep into games, so I don't see what the problem is.

--

My guess is that Beane asks for a package >= what someone ends up paying for Santana.

How did the Cardinals ever let Haren go?

[scribbletone]

Melky is essentially very average. He'll hit 15 homers, hit 275-280, knock in a few runs here and there, and play the field fairly well. His only exceptional asset is that he has a rocket arm, and when you're okay at everything and exceptional at one thing, then you're generally a fairly valuable player. The guy deserves to be a starter somewhere, just maybe not on a contender

[matsuzakasan]

Apparently the cards wanted Mark Mulder more....and if this deal goes down for the yanks...people might be asking the same thing about Phillip hughes in a few years....hahaha

[matsuzakasan]

I think the only prob with melky scribble is that not being in a contender lineup as good as the Yankees I see him hitting closer to .265-.270

[brucieeb]

the yankees are crazy for going after santanna.way to much money and prospects.hughes could be as good or close to him.these trades do not work.if he was 25 or 26,maybe or if it was for 5 yrs 100 million.dan haren would be much better,younger much cheaper and the yankees could still ad another ace giving them 2 plus wang.if we keep hughes,joba and trade kennedy then i would agree because a pitching staff of santanna,wang,hughes,joba,mussina would definately be better than boston's pitching.if santanna gets hurt then the yankees are finished,lost hughes and more and are financially strapped.keep the kids and let boston have him.

[matsuzakasan]

I wish you owned the yankees brucieeb....LOL...If the sox get Johan we will dominate the yankees for years to come...

[Kosh]

@matsuzakasan:

"Apparently the cards wanted Mark Mulder more....and if this deal goes down for the yanks...people might be asking the same thing about Phillip hughes in a few years....hahaha"

But as you were so kind to point out to us about 25 times last night, Hughes is overrated. So it's more accurate to say that we're about to pull off a heist, isn't it?

[scribbletone]

"I think the only prob with melky scribble is that not being in a contender lineup as good as the Yankees I see him hitting closer to .265-.270"

Good point, i never even considered the kind of protection that he gets around him from that lineup, as well as the many RBI's that are close to essentially handed to him. Still would be a solid starter for most teams.

[fireforge]

What is a Melky, and why would the Twins want something named that in their outfield? Isn't he just a juiced up Jason Tyner?

For the love of God, I wish things were different....

[matsuzakasan]

@Kosh

ahhhh....I was being facetious buddy...Mark Mulder is not Johan Santana and Phillip hughes is not Dan Haren....go kick rocks

[JakeOD21]

I really want to know if this new offer from the Yankees means that Hughes is replacing Kennedy or if Hughes as just been added to the offer along with Kennedy/Cabrera/another prospect. I have a hard time believing that other prospect would be either Jackson or Tabata. Seems like a truly insane price when you factor in the huge extension that would come later.

I'm a Red Sox fan, and I have found this whole Santana sweepstakes, and the debate here on the site, to be very entertaining. In the end I feel like if the Yankees offer up a package like above, or even have to give up Cano in some scenario, the Red Sox will feel like have done their job. That's not to say the Sox don't want Johan; I think they do on a certain level. But their overall unwillingness to part with Ellsbury and Buchholz should say something about how much they really want him.

As far as the Haren discussion, with Beane you just never know. I've heard for months that Beane could possibly blow up the A's this winter, but who's to say he won't demand a lot more for Haren than the Twins want for Santana? But then again, he gave up Tim Hudson for virtually nothing a few years back (a different situation, Hudson only had one year left but he did have a better track record than Haren does now).

Where the Santana sweepstakes really only involves teams that could afford his extension, any Haren sweepstakes could potentially involve a whole bunch more teams, considering how much less $ Haren is due to make. But, again, I'm not convinced Beane will definitely move him.

The plot thickens.

[matsuzakasan]

ur scribb...Ive got nothin against melky he's a hustler...and even as a Sox fan I have to say him and coco are potentially the same except coco has the defensive flair that fits in with past OF's in Minn. He's pretty exciting to watch in CF

[jehu]

Maybe it means the trade won't happen, but I don't think this latest offer is enough. Just yesterday sources were saying Hughes + Cabrera wasn't even close. The Twins already have an Alan Horne, they call theirs Anthony Swarzak and he's like 3 years younger with no injury history.

A prospect like Austin Jackson probably will have to be added to even get close.

[scribbletone]

Theres no way the Yankees give up both Hughes and Kennedy, if they do that then they are making a mistake. I'm guessing it Hughes essentially replacing Kennedy in their offer, which makes it something like Hughes, Melky and someone like Alan Horne

[scribbletone]

and Hughes was off limits in talks with the Twins until earlier tonight, when the Yankees front office finally decided to include him in an offer

[matsuzakasan]

Ive heard that the Twins are concerned that the Yanks other prospects besides Hughes and Kennedy are not MLB ready till 2009 and that is what one of the problems is...

[JimCrikket]

It wasnt that long ago that all three of the top Yankee pitching prospects were untouchable. A couple days ago, Kennedy was available. Now Hughes. A week from now, who knows? Twins may have Cano, Hughes and Kennedy, with Cabrera as a throw in!

Ok.. probably not... but what I find interesting is that, while I expected to see the bidding between Boston and NY cause both teams to incrementally increase offers until the Twins got a couple of legit potential stars, it seems like NY is now bidding against themselves as Boston has stood firm on not including Ellsbury.

I guess not really bidding against themselves, but bidding against the team that already owns Santana and could decide to keep him.

I think the Twins will wait until the meetings start Sunday.. consider the offers on the table Sunday night and pull the trigger on Monday. None of the parties will want this to drag on longer than that.

As for Melky, he doesn't excite me as a Twins fan... but he's better than anyone else in the organization right now. And it may not be the Yankees lineup, but he'll have Mauer, Young, Morneau, and Cuddyer in the lineup with him and that ain't nothin`. The Twins will also be needing to pick up another infielder next week... probably a 3B.

[JimCrikket]

I doubt if the Twins will insist all prospects be MLB ready in 2008. If theyre at least prospects that have market value or increase their own prospect depth, they can always spin such prospects to someone else for a MLB third baseman (for example).

[matsuzakasan]

They're aren't insisting...but if the Yankees are up against the red sox offer of lester,coco,lowrie and masterson/Bowden...those guys are all pretty much MLB ready...so YES it does matter..

[JimCrikket]

I'll be shocked if the Twins accept an offer from Boston that includes Crisp. They can't communicate a flat out refusal, though. If they did that, yes, Boston MIGHT swap in Ellsbury... but if they don't, they may make a deal with someone else and there goes the Twins leverage to get the best deal from NY.

Smith's walkinga fine line right now... waiting things out to get the best offer possible, but not waiting so long that he loses out on what would be an acceptable deal.

Fun stuff.

[matsuzakasan]

Not to mention that Tabata and Austin Jackson the other 2 prospects mentioned in the deal as good as they may be are 19 and 20 yrs old respectively and haven't been passed Single A ball yet so no you are not flipping them for any 3B of value at a MLB level

[matsuzakasan]

If the twins want two quality starters and a very good SS(which you also need) they will except coco as a throw in....he's just as good as melky and the twins can afford 4 mil a year despite what all the Yankees shills on here think

[maximumpotential]

Hughes/Melky/Betimit for 3b?? he'd be an upgrade over Punto for sure

[JimCrikket]

I don't think the Twins will pay 4 mil a year for a 'throw in'. Just not their MO. I also don't think they want two quality starters. They want a potential legitimate #1 and it sounds like Hughes is the one they see as most likely to reach that level.

I would agree that the Twins aren't likely to be excited about low-minor level pitching prospects because they have a bunch of those already. But if they got someone like Jackson, they wouldn't spin him... they're desperate for quality position players at almost every level of their organization.

More likely, they would see what they could get for one of their better A-AA arms. Of course, Nathan is still likely going to get dealt, too.

[JimCrikket]

I've been a little surprised Betimit hasn't been mentioned at all in any of the conjecture. What's his contract status?

I just assumed that the Twins aren't big on him for some reason or have another deal for a 3B in the works apart from what they're doing with Santana.

[walkoffblast]

I am still skeptical just adding Hughes guarantees Santana to the Yankees is as close as many may think. It seems they are demanding 2 of a teams best 3 (not saying they will get it but they will at least see if they can) Hughes still is only one of those and the Yankees are at a disadvantage here because if they keep cano, joba, kennedy off limits then it is hard to see a strong 2nd player (please do not embarrass yourself by suggesting melky). Hughes may be the best single player they can get for Santana but the Twins might be tempted by a package with more depth or at least keep trying to force the yankees into tipping their hand even further about needing Johan bad.

[JakeOD21]

I'm in agreement that at this moment there's not much of difference between Cabrera and Crisp. Cabrera can hit more now while Crisp's defense is far superior.

The differences in relation to this trade are pretty obvious however: Cabrera has a lot more upside than Crisp and the money is better for the Twins.

At the same time, this should not at any point force the Red Sox to replace Crisp in the deal with Ellsbury. And not this this is really related, he's way better than Cabrera and even the most ardent Yankees homer could not argue otherwise.

It angers me to no end that the Twins distaste with the $10 million owed to Crisp would prevent this deal from happening. If I were a Twins fan I'd already be pissed off enough that 175-year-old Carl Pohlad enjoys sitting on his mountainous fortune and never trickles any of it into his baseball team. Gimme a break.

[matsuzakasan]

Thank you walkoff...my point exactly...The red sox four man package(even with crisp in t) is still more appealing than Hughes, melky and a prospect

[jehu]

The issue is not Crisp's salary. Not even a little bit. The Twins obviously just think he sucks. If the Twins wanted a CF for less than a million they wouldn't have recently contacted Rowand's agent. The Twins are well under budget, especially if Santana is dealt, and the issue is talent. Crisp doesn't have enough of it.

[jondogg1985]

I've read some of the posts and I agree mostly with Twins fans. This is one of the most talented pitchers in baseball and they are about to lose him. But aparantley most have gotten over the fact that he's going to be traded. It must be frustrating to have an owner who doesn't spend money on the team. The biggest reason why the Twins are balking at Crisp is because they want more prospects. Everyone keeps saying the Red Sox are driving up the price for the Yankees is false. And the Red Sox DO have a legit interest in him. He's one of the best players in baseball of course the best team in baseball has interest. Anyone who thinks elsewise are either a yankee fan or don't pay attention to baseball or both. A big reason for the Sox to get over Buccholz Bowden, Ellsbury and Lowrie is that it also keeps the 'black night at bay', aka blocking the yankees. Theo's point is that they don't want to spend a ton of money to block the yankees, but the Sox would be giving up prospects. The Sox have the best scouting system in MLB so we can replace those names quickly, and by the time Johan completes just half of his time with the Sox. When you have prospects there are only two choices; keep them and hope they perform, or trade them for PROVEN talent and make the other team worry if they will pan-out. Thank You.