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Johan Santana Rumors

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 10:30pm: Yanks and Twins are haggling over the third guy - Twins want Horne or Austin Jackson per Jon Heyman.  The Yanks are apparently holding out on that front, trying to retain some dignity.  Peter Abraham says the Yanks will also slap a deadline on their offer and then turn their attention to Dan Haren

Concurrently, the Red Sox will only give up Ellsbury if they get more than Santana back.  How about making this thing a real blockbuster, getting Joe Nathan involved?  Imagine a 7-8-9 combo of Gagne-Nathan-Papelbon (if Gagne were to accept arb).  Peter Abraham is saying the Sox aren't serious though.

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 5pm: Ken Rosenthal says the Twins are asking for shortstop Alberto Gonzalez or starter Alan Horne as the third player from the Yankees.  Doesn't sound like Hughes + Kennedy is any kind of possibility.  The Yankees cracked and put Hughes in...unless the Red Sox crack and put Ellsbury in it seems like Santana will end up in the Bronx.

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 3:30pm: La Velle E. Neal III has a Santana update for us.  He says the Yanks are offering Hughes, Cabrera, and Ian Kennedy right now.  If that's for real, I think the Twins should accept.  However, Neal's assertion runs contrary to Jon Heyman's take - he says the third player will not be Kennedy, Alan Horne, or Jose Tabata

Meanwhile it sounds like the Red Sox are still pushing Coco Crisp over Jacoby Ellsbury.  Neal adds that the Mets might re-consider their stance on Jose Reyes, and that the Twins would prefer to ship Santana over to the NL.

UPDATE, 12-1-07 at noon: Buster Olney says the Yanks' upgraded offer is now on the table, but the Twins will meet with the Red Sox this afternoon to see if they can get Theo Epstein to include both Ellsbury and Buchholz.

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 10pm: It's been decided: the Yanks will put Hughes in their offer.  John Harper and Bill Madden feel that it was Brian Cashman who needed convincing.  Cabrera remains in the package, which will be rounded out by an additional pitching prospect.  This collection of youngsters apparently puts the Yankees in the lead for Santana. 

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 6pm: The Yankees' front office has been debating whether to surrender Phil Hughes in a trade for Santana.  Buster Olney reports that they're leaning toward doing it.  Melky Cabrera and one other prospect would be sent over as well.  The Yankees, as well as the Red Sox, are hedging their bets by talking to Billy Beane about Dan Haren at the same time.

UPDATE, 11-30-07 at 11:25am: David Andriesen says the Mariners are not serious players on Santana.  However, Geoff Baker says the Ms have inquired but not made an offer for him.  However Baker talked to a friend of Santana's who indicated the ace wouldn't be jazzed signing a contract extension with a West Coast team.  U.S.S. Mariner recommends against a Santana acquisition.

FROM 11-30-07 at 8:45am:

I think it's time for a new Johan Santana thread.  We'll start today with a Peter Gammons report today on Mike & Mike In The Morning.  This comes from a trusted MLBTR reader.

Gammons favors the Yankees in the Santana derby, because he feels that Hank Steinbrenner could overrule Brian Cashman and include Phil Hughes in the deal.  Some feel that the Red Sox are just trying to pump up the price and would then turn to the A's to get Dan Haren.  Getting Haren instead of Santana may have the added benefit of not pissing off Josh Beckett about his salary.

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What a fun Hot Stove!

This is exactly what I've been saying all along. The Sox have no LEGIT interest in Santana - they don't NEED to give up what it'll take to get him because they already have Beckett as an ace. They're just doing whatever they can to build up the price....and it's going to work.

Can I take a moment to say that I'm actually tired of hearing about Johan Santana trade rumors, and I'm a huge Twins fan? It's been one after the other, day after day. One team appears to be in the lead, then a new contender emerges. Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Mets, Yankees... Now it sounds like the Twins might just want to hang onto him since no team is willing to part with its top prospects.

Well said Mr Punch... the Red Sox just won the World Series and their rotation looks great as is. Why on earth do they need Santana? Hey, if it will drive up the Yankees price, I'm all for it. But as a Twins fan, I want us to demand Cano and not Cabrera. I'm not buying into Melky Cabrera being a great player. He has name recognition because he plays in New York.

Love it Theo.
cheaper, younger, and under control for more years. Slot it Haren at 2 and still have the best rotation in baseball.

I have said it before that although Haren is not as good as Sanatana he will still demand alot to get him in a trade. the guy is making peanuts for the next 3 years and Beane is not going to just trade him for nothing. Yea the A's could trade him and get some nice prospects and and players but why wouldnt he just trade Blanton get some nice prospects as well, keep your true ACE who is mad cheap, and then if anything trade him in the last year of his deal when teams will still trade alot for him cause hes only making at most like 8million.

i say the yankees go get Haren, i rather surrender prospects for him instead of Santana, call me crazy but Santana is gunna get too pricey and i like Haren better.

I heard Peter Gammons today on Mike & Mike and was surprised to hear him call the third minor leaguer the Red Sox were offering in their latest rumored offer a “STUD.” Who the heck could it be when they’re saying Clay Buchholtz and Jacoby Ellbury are untouchables? I remember names like Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie being thrown in with Lester and Crisp, I’m sorry Peter but these guys are not STUDS.

But don’t take my word for it, here’s what Kevin Goldstien had to say about them:

“Masterson’s sinker is not only the best in the system, it’s arguably the best in all of the minor leagues. The pitch comes out of his hand at 88-92 mph, touches 94, and features tremendous downward break. Making the pitch even more effective is his ability to locate it in any four quadrants of the zone. He has an intimidating presence on the mound, and his drop-and-drive style gives him some deception.
Masterson’s three-quarters delivery is a bit of a concern, as his causes him to often get around on his slider, taking away any depth from the pitch. He made some progress this year with a circle grip on his changeup, but it remains a below-average pitch. Because of these concerns with his arsenal, some project him to be a reliever down the road.
Perfect World Projection: Pitchers like Chien-Ming Wang, Fausto Carmona and Derek Lowe have proven that sinkerballers can have great success in starting roles. While Masterson is in that mold, he’s a notch below them.”

In my opinion He’s a Middle of the Rotation Guy… Pretty Much a younger Red Sox Version of Allan Horne without the health history…Horne does has the better secondary stuff.

“Lowrie is an on-base machine. His approach is highly advanced, as he works the count well, and recognizes which pitches he can drive into the gap. His makeup is off the charts--he’s a baseball grinder who plays and practices with an infectious all-out style. Defensively, he’s fundamentally sound and features a solid, accurate arm.
Scouts’ opinions of Lowrie vary wildly, with some seeing him as an everyday big league shortstop, and others seeing him as no more than a very good utility player. There is little doubt that with Lowrie’s average speed and slow first step that his range is a little short to play on the left side of an infield in the big leagues.
Perfect World Projection: A starting shortstop, though second base is more likely.”

In my opinion If Lowrie can up his range at short, which is highly unlikely B/C he will turn 23 this December he’s a decent prospect because he posted a 410 OBP in AA and 354 OBP in AAA while Slugging just over 500 in both stops last year. Definitely not a STUD more like a gritty second basemen destined for the bottom of the order on a Good Team.

Peter you’re a great hall of fame journalist Stop hyping the prospects on your favorite Team… It makes you sound like a SoSH message board member.

santana to the yanks, cano, edwin encarnacion, and matt maloney to twins, ian kennedy and fanrsworth to the reds. The twins get two young position players who can step in and star right now. The yanks get Santana and keep Hughes/Chamberlain. The reds get a young #4 starter and a power arm in the pen that could suceed in the NL central.

A couple things...

The Red Sox do not NEED Santana to be competitive, but they are not simply trying to drive his price up. Actually acquiring Santana would accomplish two things of independent significance: (1) It would cement their rotation with two genuine aces (which is a blessing, not a burden); (2) It would keep Santana away from the Yankees. Santana's presence in the Yankees rotation could tip the scales back in the Yankees' direction further than Red Sox ownership is comfortable letting it go without a fight. Rest assured they're not simply driving up the price; if they're sane, they legitimately do not want to see Santana in pinstripes, giving NY the playoff pitcher they've been lacking.

Also, I think Gammons is blowing this issue about Josh Beckett's salary out of proportion. Quite frankly, the implication that Josh Beckett needs to be paid more if another "ace" comes in implies that he will intentionally perform below his capabilities if Santana were traded to the Red Sox and extended. It's insulting. Schilling makes more than Beckett. Dice-K costs more than Beckett when his cost is spread out annually. Drew costs more. Lugo's salary is comparable. Enough.

"In my opinion If Lowrie can up his range at short, which is highly unlikely B/C he will turn 23 this December he’s a decent prospect because he posted a 410 OBP in AA and 354 OBP in AAA while Slugging just over 500 in both stops last year. Definitely not a STUD more like a gritty second basemen destined for the bottom of the order on a Good Team."

I think people are underestimating just what it means for a middle infielder to slug over .500 in the high minors.

I also think people are losing sight of the fact that these trades proposed aren't for the best pitcher in baseball at reasonable cost over six years. They're for the RIGHT to PAY upwards of $22-25M per year for the best pitcher in baseball over the course of five, six, seven years. That's why the Red Sox aren't throwing Buchholz, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson, and the kitchen sink at the Twins. It's also presumably why people aren't physically slapping the mother-loving crap out of Yankees fans suggesting Melky + Kennedy + belly button lint should get it done.

I like Gammons. He's a pro and he's got arguably the best and widest sources in the business. But he has always been a bit of a shill for the Red Sox and you have to take any report he gives that involves Boston with a grain of salt.

Of course NY needs Santana worse than Boston and in a normal business, Boston would not make nearly the effort to gain that asset that NY would. But "normal business" does not describe MLB and it certainly doesn't take the Red Sox/Yankee rivalry in to account.

I have to imagine Theo is laughing his ass off and Cashman is tearing his hair out as he tries to talk "sense" to yet another Steinbrenner.

Smith just needs to be patient and he'll end up naming his own price with the Yankees. If not, and assuming an LA team doesn't come forward with a great deal, he simply keeps Santana... with or without an extension.

Well If the Yankees and Red Sox insist on keeping on their Top Prospects for Themselves; From the Twins Perspective, they should keep Johan try to contend for the fans who paid For Ebenezer Pohlad's new Stadium. If there out by July I'm sure they can get similair prospects for a rent an ace situation. Especially if either the Red Sox or Yankees are fighting for the pennant.

I am a big Redsox fan but I am starting to feel like everybody else in here. It is starting to get really aggravating having to listen to this Santana stuff all day every day. I wouldn't doubt if the Twins find a way to keep him and make the Skanks and Sox look pretty silly.

I thought gammons was a sux fan?....I really hope the yankees do not have to trade hughes to get santana.

First off, Cano is not going anywhere for anyone at all. Also, if the Yankees deal Hughes they aren't including Kennedy as well in a deal but will probably include Tabata/Jackson along with Shelly Duncan, who was born to DH. And finally, I don't see NY making a deal for Santana this year but I do see them pushing hard to get Peavy from SD after this season...

I hope the Yankees don't get Santana, or if they do, I hope takes the FA train out of town the next year. It's not good for baseball when the Sox and Yanks can vaccuum up all the high-priced players.

The Red Sox and Yankees fans are delusional.

The fact they have the gall to think any of these young prospects who have yet to prove anything of significance in the MLB are untouchable.

We are talking about the best pitcher in baseball people. Almost a modern version of Sandy Koufax. The man is 28 years old, and barring injury a shoe-in hall of famer!

You are telling me These prospects are untouchable?? Unbelievable. Honestly, you are being delusional.

The Twins are not stupid. It will take Ellsbury and Bucholz, or Hughes and Cano for a deal to get done. The Twins will let him walk and take their pair of #1 picks if they don't get AT LEAST that value. They have had success with that route in the past, and will no doubt choose the draft picks over these crappy prospect offers being talked about now.

Yanks fans, are you honestly telling me you think Hughes is untouchable? He is not even close to a sure thing yet...Unreal, and I'm shaking my head.

I don't have any credible sources on this, but there seems to be a growing sentiment that the Twins might throw a blank check at Johan and put an end to this nonsense. MN is 14th or the 17th biggest market in the nation. Does that qualify as a small-market? I guess compared to the top 5 it does....The fact it has come to this is disgusting. Polhad is a billionaire twice over, worth bundles more than even Steinbrenner, and he has to be bamboozled into opening his wallet. This team is not in the red, that is for sure. Good grief.

What really cracks me up is that in 1987 and 1991 the Twins had the highest payroll in baseball. Funny how the miserly ways set in after that.

Sorry for rambling.

For all those getting sick and tired of the Johan rumors, here's an idea: Stop going to a baseball trade rumor site! That's the whole purpose of this website. To learn about possible signings/trades and then discuss them. What were you expecting?

Well said, Pabelboner.

Additionally, for all the people who are tired of the Johan rumors, why bother to comment at all?

so how many people actually believe satana will get traded before the season, because the more this plays out it seems less likely to me.

Don't get me wrong, I love prognisticating, I just think everybody is dreaming if they can load a bunch of maybe prospects onto the Twins, and hold on to their prized possessions. Like Bill Smith himself said after the Delmon deal, "To get something, you have to give up something."

common sense says that if the twins trade santana that nathan would have to go as well, so make that trade with the red sox, im not fond on coco crisp, yet he would be a good lead off hitter now that the twins have cuddyer, morneau, young and mauer who can drive runs in, then trade nathan to tdodgers for laroche and a prospect. make sense to anbody else?

I like that line of thinking. Getting LaRoche for Nathan would be a good risk. Do you think the Dodgers would do it? I'm not sure how high they are on LaRoche at this point, but it sure would beat anything the Twinks have at 3rd. I love Joe Nathan, but he is 33, and an injury waiting to happen.

How about this? The Twins ship Nathan to the Brewers for Bill Hall and a mid-level prospect. Throw Hall at 3rd. Is there a way to package someone else on the Twins and get Corey Hart thrown in? I'm not sure who it would be since after the top 4 hitters, and the young SP crew, the Twins are a pile of dung.

Why LaRoche?

Why not ask for Kemp, park his butt in RF, and move Cuddyer back to 3B?

Kemp is a much, much better hitter than LaRoche and Colletti might be insane enough to do that trade.

I'm pretty sure the ash conscious Twins would prefer LaRoche over Bill Hall (who's a stiff anyway). That said, do the Dodgers really need Nathan? They have Saito and Broxton, both of whom had very good seasons.

"To get something, you have to give up something."

Yes, but when that something is the biggest contract ever handed out to a pitcher that the team will lose in a year then you do not exactly throw the farm away the same way you would for a player that is cost controlled for years to come. Any team willing to give a huge contract could just wait a year and keep the top levels of their farm in tact. This is why you will not see the red sox flinch but every Yankees fan is living in fear that the steinbrenners lock cashman in a closet and go for the win this year.

we have to remember that saito is now 37 years old as was injured for part of last year, nathan could lock the dodgers closer role for another 5 to 6 years

and also we would not go for kemp, but go for laroche because cuddyer is good at rf while he is horrendous at 3rd, i stood a year of that and he is locked at rf

Wow. Didn't realize that Saito was that old. That said, isn't Broxton being groomed as "the closer of the future"? If not, would a LaRoche/Broxton for Nathan deal work? LaRoche just doesn't seem enough for the best closer in baseball or is it me?

if we would have wanted to move cuddyer back to third , dont you think that would've happened when we got delmon, who is a natural right fielder, thaty have young in left and cuddyer in right because they both have rocket arms and their assist numbers are great

i think it would have to be laroche/broxton for nathan/ and a low level prospect to even it out

Makes sense. And I think the Twins would almost have to jump at that deal.

yeah it would help both teams for sure

I like the potential of LaRoche, but once again, I would almost tilt in favor of Bill Hall, because we know we are getting a hitter that is at least average now, and has a decent price tag. I don't see the Dodgers going for Nathan. Seems like they are going to hand the job to Broxton (when Saito is done), and I don't blame them. The guy is an absolute beast.

I agree that Nathan could be the #1 closer in baseball, but I don't think you get the farm for him. Any other possibilities other than the Dodgers or Brewers?

rumors are with the giants yet i dont see what they could send back for nathan

I agree, the Giants are brutal from a hitting standpoint. Although I am not very informed on their hitting prospects, so correct me if I am wrong.

and brewers have already said they donty want nathan hes too expensive

(about Lowrie)
"I think people are underestimating just what it means for a middle infielder to slug over .500 in the high minors."

Absolutely! Top prospect Brandon Wood didn't do it. Lowrie also bested Wood in OBP by .55. I'm not saying he has as high a ceiling as Wood, but its worth noting that in two very important statistical catagories, Lowrie bested Brandon Wood. He is no slouchof a prospect.

Lowrie will never hit 30 home runs, but he could develop 20 HR power. He will certainly hit plenty of doubles. He could be comparable to Michael Young (ceiling). Good average, good on base ability, doubles, questionable range at short. I wish the Sox weren't stuck with Lugo's contract so this kid could play.

Nathan for LaRoche/Broxton does make some sense. While Broxton is younger and cheaper, Nathan is a 'proven closer.' I don't think much of the idea closers are different from other relievers, but the Dodgers might.

All the people flipping out at the fact that "untouchable" prospects haven't been included to date must know something I don't.

I missed the part in negotiations where the Twins offered to foot part of the bill for Santana's extension. These prospect offers are for ONE year of Santana, with a window during which the acquiring team wins the "privilege" of signing him to a $150M contract.

The Twins are not offering six cost-controlled years of the best pitcher in baseball. They're offering one year at reasonable cost, plus (presumably) a window for exclusive negotiation. Now while that window is important, it does nothing to mitigate Santana's eventual cost. If Santana doesn't like the extension offered, he can refuse, the deal breaks down, and the Twins are forced to keep him or peddle him to Team B.

Please, please stop acting as though the teams involved are throwing four pieces of crap at the Twins in exchange for a half-decade of FREE dominance.

And on that note, arm chair gm's need to realize their opinion is not fact

The dominance isn't "free" but it is exclusive-- by trading for Santana now, a team avoids a direct financial bidding war and will get Santana a little cheaper than after this season (also because it is an extension rather than a completely new deal- the year of security has some marginal value).

The bottom line is that if Santana hits the market, he's a Yankee, period. I understand that teams don't want to give up young players but, for everyone other than the Yankees, that is the only option.

Hey, Johan is worth sending quality players over for the exclusive chance to sign. Let him hit the open market and it is anyone's guess.

The best pitcher in baseball worth that. He is proven, and that is hard to find.

It is not a foregone conclusion that Johan would be in pinstripes if he became a FA


And for the record I am not advocating a sox signing

I simply realize that other teams DO have the money and other teams COULD sign the guy if they wanted..

@DunkinDonuts:

Thank you! That's the reason I'm asking for Hughes to be kept out of these talks.

The question isn't:

Is Johan better than Hughes + whatever?

OR

Is Johan better than Lester + whatever?

The answer to those questions is yes, obviously.

The question is:

Is Johan 20-25 million dollars better every year for the next 6 than the trade package you're throwing out there?

I'd like to see the Dodgers get Santana. They may have what it takes to do so. Then, Torre can pull him in the sixth inning with 1 baserunner and abuse Scott Proctor some more.

The real benefit ... he's no longer in the AL!

The answer in my humble opinion, is yes, he is better. The best pitcher in baseball, changes the whole postseason picture for the Swankees.

Fireforge,

If Santana hits the open market, sure, it's anyone's guess as to exact dollar amount, but we can predict a range. Upwards of $25M, but likely not much more. The right to negotiate with him exclusively doesn't mean that Santana is handcuffed. He will demand somewhere close to what he could get as a free agent, or he will torpedo the deal and return to the Twins.

I don't see the Dodgers getting Santana, for one reason: the Dodgers can't afford him. They can do the trade to appease the Twins, but not the contract extension to appease Santana and his agent.

Only the Yankees can give Santana the most money and the longest contract, unless some iconoclast owner or GM pulls a Tom Hicks. The Red Sox won't give him more than five years... probably four years with a fifth year option.

Right now, the Yankees need him much more than the Red Sox do, but the Yankees need middle relief even more.

I always feel Santana is going to sign with New York Yankees, because they will offer him the best terms. I think the Red Sox trade offer is the best right now for the Twins compare to the Yankees, because they can flipped two of the four for another top rate player, if need be, but if the Yankees offer Hughes and Cano, they will seal the deal and appease all parties. Kennedy and Cabrera is not going to cut it, it has to be Cano and Hughes or if the Yankees want to throw some others, Jackson in the mix for a 2-4 player deal.

“Kemp is a much, much better hitter than LaRoche and Colletti might be insane enough to do that trade.”


…Not a huge deal, but I just wanted to say that statement isn’t really true, at all…

LaRoche has shown both better patience and power in the minor leagues. The only thing he hasn’t done is show the power in the MLs yet so this perception is out there. Going into 2007 LaRoche was the #19 ranked prospect in all of baseball (much higher then Kemp) and he plays Plus-3B. Kemp is very, very good as well ~ but LaRoche is probably a tad higher on the "total package" ability list and equal at worst…


And like someone else mentioned ~ just because Johan could be a FA doesnt mean the Yanks just get him. The highest paid pitcher in baseball is in SF and the highest previous contract ever offered (before ARods new deal) was from Tex. You never know which team would offer an insane amount to get possibly the best pitcher we have seen in 20 years...

Yes.. the Dodgers are just DYING to give away LaRoche AND Bro when we already have one of the best closers in baseball and a stud in waiting...OK. I agree with darkstar if LaRoche is healthy he's the Dodgers best young hitter and plays 3rd base well.

The 4 teams should combine the 2 big trade. This is f'n genius, Each team gets:

Minny: Lester, Wood, Lowrie, Crisp
Fl: Ellsbury, Kendrick
Angels: Miggy
Sox: Santana, Conger(Tek's replacement)

Trek ... who do the Sox get to play the outfield if you give up both Centerfielders? Rowand? Andruw?

I think you would have to swap MN and FLA around. The Twins would want Ellsbury and Kendrick intead of the group of Maybe's you are giving them.

Wood worries me. The guy has no disciple, albeit he is young, I know.

God forbid the Twins get Coco Crisp. That would be nightmare.
From how it sounds they want to avoid him like the plague.

I love how all these Sox and other baseball fans talking about how "Cashman must be flipping out trying to avoid trading Hughes/Cano" and saying Yankees fans are all "terrified another Steinbrenner will overrule logic" and so on.

(I'm kidding. I don't love it. I hate it because you are all completely correct. This sucks.)

Post of the day goes to..... Not Joe Morgan!

Got a kick out of that one.

I'm not a Mets' fan but this is just a dumb trade to me. lol. That's why their the Mets. lol

And I agree, the Dodgers should have ZERO interest in trading LaRoche/Broxton for Nathan. That just doesn't make any sense for them.

I think the Twins will stand pat in the end. Johan is the only thing that will allow them to contend next year. These prospects may or may not pan out. As a small market team, you gotta use the talent while you have it. If they're slipping towards the trade deadline, they could deal him to a desperate Yankee/BoSox team. Who knows, maybe a miracle will occur and he'll decide to stay in Minn.

Simply put. the mets are out of the running becuase dead honestly they're farm system SUCKS. and the redsox, well lets be honest i as a yankee can admit that they would have a KICK ASS rotation with the addition of john but where are they getting all this money? nobody on that team is like a reyes or a wright on the mets who isnt getting paid too much so they have the room

John Henry has plenty of money; I wouldn't worry about that.

Also, they're paying low money at the 1B, 2B and CF positions next year. And closer. C'mon.

did you just ask where are the redsox getting all this money?


Wow


just wow

"But where are they getting all this money?"

You obviously have never been to the city of Boston. Its almost disguisting how much they love the Red Sox. I personally think it borders on creepy

I still dont get why the twins would want yet another ofer in addition to melky

doesn't border on creepy ...


it is creepy :)

F&*K!

Keep Hughes out of this goddamnit.

If Hughes is included, the Yankees win....at least, in Hank Steinbrenner's eyes.

If Hughes is included, it better be a Hughes/Melky/C-prospect (like White, or Dan McCutchen at most).

It'll be a win... but for once, just once I'd like them to keep the young guy with potential instead of trading him away for another 20 million dollar contract.

I hate what the front-office has become.

so would the only difference in the deal be replacing ian kennedy with phil hughes, or do the twins want both?

hughes/kennedy/cabrera/1-2 others

or

hughes/cabrera/1-2 others?

I understand that Hughes has potential and all that, but the Yankees need a bona fide ace. They can't honestly go into the season with a rotation of Wang, Mussina, Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy and expect to compete with the Sox rotation of Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling, and Haren, who I believe they are going to end up with after everything is all said and done. In addition, the core of the team - Jeter, Posada, Matsui, Damon, Abreu, and even A-Rod - aren't getting any younger. This team is built to win NOW, not three or four years from now.

But that's just my opinion.

@04Forever:

There's no way its both of them. Its one.

@tolo:

I understand. I actually wouldn't mind finishing 2nd or missing the playoffs for 2 years if it meant a better, deeper team.

I thought they should've let ARod go for example.

idk, the whole dan haren thing is pretty quiet, i havent really heard about him being actively shopped like santana is, i dont see a haren/boston trade going down or even being talked about until the smog settles after this deal, if the yankees retain santana.

Hughes in this package is a loss for the Yankees. Why not give them a fourth prospect and just send kennedy?

hughes is asking alot, but the fact that the yankees are "thinking about" and how hank has his fathers insanity, makes me think that they are going to get santana and make the best right now team they can build.

dabigny, the reason why is because they dont want a fourth, they WANT hughes, hes the conerstone of the deal to make it work

besides, youll get to keep ian kennedy, yankee fans love him sooooo muuuuch

They are built to win now. If they really wanted to go with the youngsters and reduce payroll they would have had a different strategy with ARod/Posada/Rivera.

They would have been in great shape 2-3 years down the road going with youth. They would have core talent developed and an incredibly flexible payroll.

Unfortunately, they have to win this year. You can't have a payroll around $200m and not make the playoffs. The whole youth movement sounded nice but Yankee suits (and their fans) got nervous and caved into handing out large contracts to old players. Now if they move Hughes + others youngsters for Santana it will further erode their youth movement.

It's fine for the Yankees to do this. I just don't want to hear about their new, sound, fiscal approach to running a ball team. They are still buying championships (or at least trying to buy championships). They remain the most Evil Empire (closely followed by the Bo Sox).

go to the "did we miss anything" post, the newest one, the yankees included hughes! there is proof

The Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, etc will never have fiscal responsibility when it comes to filling out their rosters because they always have opportunities to sign big stars; smaller markets can only afford to do that for 1, maybe 2 of their homegrown stars (like Pujols and STL, for example)

Go check out the latest (comment-based) post because theres a lot of Santana-Hughes delibiration over there.

That is so true, the Cardinals are strapped for cash. They are the epitomy of sound fiscal responsibility.

90million on average over the last 3 years.

Does anybody on here think J.D Drew couldn't beat a 4 year 56 million dollar contract if he was a free agent right now?

"You obviously have never been to the city of Boston. Its almost disguisting how much they love the Red Sox. I personally think it borders on creepy"

It is not that Boston loves the Red Sox, It is the entire New England region. Pretty much everyone in New England follows the Red Sox, except the region west of New Haven to Greenwich which is more Yankee territory.

When George HW Bush campaigned in New Hampshire in 1988 NH primary, he brought along Ted Williams, and guess who everyone wanted to see? Go anywhere in New England, and everyone has an opinion about the Red Sox. Why the Red Sox is such a money maker is how they are ingrained in the entire New England region, and it shows how any team wants to get its brand image strong in the regional market, like how the Cubs have made their brand throughout much of the midwest.

It is creepy? you bet it is creepy, it is like dealing with a cult. My father still remembers when how Pesky held the ball that let Slaughter scored like it was yesterday in the 1946 World Series.

I grew up as a die hard Red Sox fan, but if I lived in New England, I would probably be a Twins or a Indians fan, just not to join in the cult so seriously. I also was less enthuse for the Red Sox during the 1990s during the Dan Duquette reign, when he didn't re- signed Clemens.

What the Sox was curse for so many years wasn't the Bambino, it was bad management and bad owners, (Yawkey who didn't signed Robinson or Willie Mays)

Right now, the World Series trophy is going around New England as some sort of religious relic to appease the faithful. The Red Sox should be called "The New England Red Sox".

Heyt IM A NEW ENGLANDER and im not a Sox fan, AND I HATE WHEN PEOPLE LUMP US IN WITH BOSTON !!!!!!!!!! Im from Connecticut, and the town i was born in, the city hall steps - get this - are exactly half way between Fenway and the Stadium. THATS cool. Oh yeah, only Vermonters and Massachussetss-whatevers are bogus for Boston. We are split on NYY/BOS here, and NY isnt far.

I would like to formally file a petition against using the words "New England" and "Red Sox" in the same sentence from here on. They are not related. That's like saying that New York/Pennsylvania is Yankees territory; it aint.

LoL just kidding but seriously i hate being referred to as a "New Englander"

"i havent really heard about him being actively shopped like santana is"

Beane didn't call you?

NEWSDAY reports that the Yankees offered the Twins Hughes, it's official.

check it out.....

This is just my gut feeling... I know everyone wide eyed Yankee fan will disagree with me but i would part with Chamberlain Before Hughes. I think Joba has the higher ceiling but has a longer way to go to reach his potential as a Starter than a short reliever. I just remember watching Hughes during the playoffs and after he settled in He really looked like the best pitching propect in baseball. Being an Ace is not about here it is can you hit... Its about setting up hitters to hit your pitch the first second third and fourth time through the order. In my opinion Hughes is better equiped to do that over the long haul.

I'm still trying to figure out what these teams are seeing in Melky Cabrera. Great 4th outfielder, nothing more.

@Jzzskins:

Joba's always been a starter. His velocity stays deep into games, so I don't see what the problem is.

--

My guess is that Beane asks for a package >= what someone ends up paying for Santana.

How did the Cardinals ever let Haren go?

Melky is essentially very average. He'll hit 15 homers, hit 275-280, knock in a few runs here and there, and play the field fairly well. His only exceptional asset is that he has a rocket arm, and when you're okay at everything and exceptional at one thing, then you're generally a fairly valuable player. The guy deserves to be a starter somewhere, just maybe not on a contender

Apparently the cards wanted Mark Mulder more....and if this deal goes down for the yanks...people might be asking the same thing about Phillip hughes in a few years....hahaha

I think the only prob with melky scribble is that not being in a contender lineup as good as the Yankees I see him hitting closer to .265-.270

the yankees are crazy for going after santanna.way to much money and prospects.hughes could be as good or close to him.these trades do not work.if he was 25 or 26,maybe or if it was for 5 yrs 100 million.dan haren would be much better,younger much cheaper and the yankees could still ad another ace giving them 2 plus wang.if we keep hughes,joba and trade kennedy then i would agree because a pitching staff of santanna,wang,hughes,joba,mussina would definately be better than boston's pitching.if santanna gets hurt then the yankees are finished,lost hughes and more and are financially strapped.keep the kids and let boston have him.

I wish you owned the yankees brucieeb....LOL...If the sox get Johan we will dominate the yankees for years to come...

@matsuzakasan:

"Apparently the cards wanted Mark Mulder more....and if this deal goes down for the yanks...people might be asking the same thing about Phillip hughes in a few years....hahaha"

But as you were so kind to point out to us about 25 times last night, Hughes is overrated. So it's more accurate to say that we're about to pull off a heist, isn't it?

"I think the only prob with melky scribble is that not being in a contender lineup as good as the Yankees I see him hitting closer to .265-.270"

Good point, i never even considered the kind of protection that he gets around him from that lineup, as well as the many RBI's that are close to essentially handed to him. Still would be a solid starter for most teams.

What is a Melky, and why would the Twins want something named that in their outfield? Isn't he just a juiced up Jason Tyner?

For the love of God, I wish things were different....

@Kosh

ahhhh....I was being facetious buddy...Mark Mulder is not Johan Santana and Phillip hughes is not Dan Haren....go kick rocks

I really want to know if this new offer from the Yankees means that Hughes is replacing Kennedy or if Hughes as just been added to the offer along with Kennedy/Cabrera/another prospect. I have a hard time believing that other prospect would be either Jackson or Tabata. Seems like a truly insane price when you factor in the huge extension that would come later.

I'm a Red Sox fan, and I have found this whole Santana sweepstakes, and the debate here on the site, to be very entertaining. In the end I feel like if the Yankees offer up a package like above, or even have to give up Cano in some scenario, the Red Sox will feel like have done their job. That's not to say the Sox don't want Johan; I think they do on a certain level. But their overall unwillingness to part with Ellsbury and Buchholz should say something about how much they really want him.

As far as the Haren discussion, with Beane you just never know. I've heard for months that Beane could possibly blow up the A's this winter, but who's to say he won't demand a lot more for Haren than the Twins want for Santana? But then again, he gave up Tim Hudson for virtually nothing a few years back (a different situation, Hudson only had one year left but he did have a better track record than Haren does now).

Where the Santana sweepstakes really only involves teams that could afford his extension, any Haren sweepstakes could potentially involve a whole bunch more teams, considering how much less $ Haren is due to make. But, again, I'm not convinced Beane will definitely move him.

The plot thickens.

ur scribb...Ive got nothin against melky he's a hustler...and even as a Sox fan I have to say him and coco are potentially the same except coco has the defensive flair that fits in with past OF's in Minn. He's pretty exciting to watch in CF

Maybe it means the trade won't happen, but I don't think this latest offer is enough. Just yesterday sources were saying Hughes + Cabrera wasn't even close. The Twins already have an Alan Horne, they call theirs Anthony Swarzak and he's like 3 years younger with no injury history.

A prospect like Austin Jackson probably will have to be added to even get close.

Theres no way the Yankees give up both Hughes and Kennedy, if they do that then they are making a mistake. I'm guessing it Hughes essentially replacing Kennedy in their offer, which makes it something like Hughes, Melky and someone like Alan Horne

and Hughes was off limits in talks with the Twins until earlier tonight, when the Yankees front office finally decided to include him in an offer

Ive heard that the Twins are concerned that the Yanks other prospects besides Hughes and Kennedy are not MLB ready till 2009 and that is what one of the problems is...

It wasnt that long ago that all three of the top Yankee pitching prospects were untouchable. A couple days ago, Kennedy was available. Now Hughes. A week from now, who knows? Twins may have Cano, Hughes and Kennedy, with Cabrera as a throw in!

Ok.. probably not... but what I find interesting is that, while I expected to see the bidding between Boston and NY cause both teams to incrementally increase offers until the Twins got a couple of legit potential stars, it seems like NY is now bidding against themselves as Boston has stood firm on not including Ellsbury.

I guess not really bidding against themselves, but bidding against the team that already owns Santana and could decide to keep him.

I think the Twins will wait until the meetings start Sunday.. consider the offers on the table Sunday night and pull the trigger on Monday. None of the parties will want this to drag on longer than that.

As for Melky, he doesn't excite me as a Twins fan... but he's better than anyone else in the organization right now. And it may not be the Yankees lineup, but he'll have Mauer, Young, Morneau, and Cuddyer in the lineup with him and that ain't nothin`. The Twins will also be needing to pick up another infielder next week... probably a 3B.

I doubt if the Twins will insist all prospects be MLB ready in 2008. If theyre at least prospects that have market value or increase their own prospect depth, they can always spin such prospects to someone else for a MLB third baseman (for example).

They're aren't insisting...but if the Yankees are up against the red sox offer of lester,coco,lowrie and masterson/Bowden...those guys are all pretty much MLB ready...so YES it does matter..

I'll be shocked if the Twins accept an offer from Boston that includes Crisp. They can't communicate a flat out refusal, though. If they did that, yes, Boston MIGHT swap in Ellsbury... but if they don't, they may make a deal with someone else and there goes the Twins leverage to get the best deal from NY.

Smith's walkinga fine line right now... waiting things out to get the best offer possible, but not waiting so long that he loses out on what would be an acceptable deal.

Fun stuff.

Not to mention that Tabata and Austin Jackson the other 2 prospects mentioned in the deal as good as they may be are 19 and 20 yrs old respectively and haven't been passed Single A ball yet so no you are not flipping them for any 3B of value at a MLB level

If the twins want two quality starters and a very good SS(which you also need) they will except coco as a throw in....he's just as good as melky and the twins can afford 4 mil a year despite what all the Yankees shills on here think

Hughes/Melky/Betimit for 3b?? he'd be an upgrade over Punto for sure

I don't think the Twins will pay 4 mil a year for a 'throw in'. Just not their MO. I also don't think they want two quality starters. They want a potential legitimate #1 and it sounds like Hughes is the one they see as most likely to reach that level.

I would agree that the Twins aren't likely to be excited about low-minor level pitching prospects because they have a bunch of those already. But if they got someone like Jackson, they wouldn't spin him... they're desperate for quality position players at almost every level of their organization.

More likely, they would see what they could get for one of their better A-AA arms. Of course, Nathan is still likely going to get dealt, too.

I've been a little surprised Betimit hasn't been mentioned at all in any of the conjecture. What's his contract status?

I just assumed that the Twins aren't big on him for some reason or have another deal for a 3B in the works apart from what they're doing with Santana.

I am still skeptical just adding Hughes guarantees Santana to the Yankees is as close as many may think. It seems they are demanding 2 of a teams best 3 (not saying they will get it but they will at least see if they can) Hughes still is only one of those and the Yankees are at a disadvantage here because if they keep cano, joba, kennedy off limits then it is hard to see a strong 2nd player (please do not embarrass yourself by suggesting melky). Hughes may be the best single player they can get for Santana but the Twins might be tempted by a package with more depth or at least keep trying to force the yankees into tipping their hand even further about needing Johan bad.

I'm in agreement that at this moment there's not much of difference between Cabrera and Crisp. Cabrera can hit more now while Crisp's defense is far superior.

The differences in relation to this trade are pretty obvious however: Cabrera has a lot more upside than Crisp and the money is better for the Twins.

At the same time, this should not at any point force the Red Sox to replace Crisp in the deal with Ellsbury. And not this this is really related, he's way better than Cabrera and even the most ardent Yankees homer could not argue otherwise.

It angers me to no end that the Twins distaste with the $10 million owed to Crisp would prevent this deal from happening. If I were a Twins fan I'd already be pissed off enough that 175-year-old Carl Pohlad enjoys sitting on his mountainous fortune and never trickles any of it into his baseball team. Gimme a break.

Thank you walkoff...my point exactly...The red sox four man package(even with crisp in t) is still more appealing than Hughes, melky and a prospect

The issue is not Crisp's salary. Not even a little bit. The Twins obviously just think he sucks. If the Twins wanted a CF for less than a million they wouldn't have recently contacted Rowand's agent. The Twins are well under budget, especially if Santana is dealt, and the issue is talent. Crisp doesn't have enough of it.

I've read some of the posts and I agree mostly with Twins fans. This is one of the most talented pitchers in baseball and they are about to lose him. But aparantley most have gotten over the fact that he's going to be traded. It must be frustrating to have an owner who doesn't spend money on the team. The biggest reason why the Twins are balking at Crisp is because they want more prospects. Everyone keeps saying the Red Sox are driving up the price for the Yankees is false. And the Red Sox DO have a legit interest in him. He's one of the best players in baseball of course the best team in baseball has interest. Anyone who thinks elsewise are either a yankee fan or don't pay attention to baseball or both. A big reason for the Sox to get over Buccholz Bowden, Ellsbury and Lowrie is that it also keeps the 'black night at bay', aka blocking the yankees. Theo's point is that they don't want to spend a ton of money to block the yankees, but the Sox would be giving up prospects. The Sox have the best scouting system in MLB so we can replace those names quickly, and by the time Johan completes just half of his time with the Sox. When you have prospects there are only two choices; keep them and hope they perform, or trade them for PROVEN talent and make the other team worry if they will pan-out. Thank You.

When Red Sox and Yankee ownership are willing to talk seriously about sharing income from tv and other revenue advantages that their market size give them, we can have a seriousl discussion of owner-greed. Pohlad commits a higher percentage of his team's revenue to payroll than most owners. But this is a trade rumor site, so that's a topic for another venue.

I have no problem with the Twins looking at Crisp and saying "no thanks" to paying 10 million for him when you can get someone comparable now... and with greater upside... for far, far less money. If they're going to pay millions for a CF, they want someone better than Crisp and I think most Twins fans support that.

This whole crisp/cabrera debate is not that important to any trade package as a whole. Which prospects the teams are willing to give up is really everything. Even if it mattered and it was purely a money issue the Sox could pay some of Crisp's contract, its not like an extra 5 mil is going to stop them from making a deal that could cost them around 150 mil.

Aaron Rowand is not a considerable upgrade from Crisp he has a little more power....but all in all their lifetime stats are very similar and your gonna have to pay Rowand much mor than 4 mil a year...

I should note that Crisp is way better than anyone the Twins have right now in CF. The issue with Santana is that the Twins want more upside-- they have negotiated with the Red Sox to acquire Crisp separately so clearly they consider him an option, despite his limitations. I imagine the Twins rate Crisp well ahead of Corey Patterson. Rowand is better but his price is problematic for his inconsistent offense.

I like Santanna but I also like hughes alot better. Now Santanna is a better pitcher but he mayonly pitchgood for maybe 5 years. Now hughes is 22 and if he turns out good 18-20 winner it would last at leat 10 years. I'm afraid this will bite the Yankees in the ass. Also anybody who's listening if I were the Yankees I'd rather trade Joba than hughes. Look as you saw towards the end of the year when things mattered most Joba didn't pitch good, when he pitched back to back innings he sucked. Now Hughes has proven he could pitch good when it matters most, around a 2 ERA in September and getting the only Yankees win in Game 3 of the playoffs. If Hughes was a setup man he would of had like a .38 ERA and lower.

This deal is done - Santana is a yankee:

22 big name acquisitions in a 8 year period - All either bloated long
>term deals, salary dump pickups, aging star signings, or contract
>extension deals. yankee gluttony is sickening.


>2001 Mike Mussina (88.5 mill)

>2002 Ja$on Giambi (120mill), David Wells (7mill)(pt. 2), Jeff
Weaver(22mill)

>2003 Hideki Matsui (21 mill), Jose Contreras (32 mill),

>2004 Gary Sheffield (39mill), Alex Rodriguez (70 milll), Kevin
Brown(33mill), Javier Vasquez(30mill)

2005 Randy Johnson(38mill), Jaret Wright(17mill), Carl Pavano(40mill)

2006 Johnny Damon(52 mill), Bobby Abreau(37mill
for 2.5 yrs), Hideki Matsui Pt.2 (52mill)

>2007 Andy Pettite(32mill), Mike Mussina Pt.2 (23mill) , Kei
Igawa(46mill), Roger Clemen$ (28 million [17 mill pro-rated])

2008 Alex Rodriguez pt. 2 (minimum 275 mill), Johan Santana (150 mill)

TOTAL = 1.25 BILLION not even counting luxury tax!

When the yanks were about to follow through on their word and let Arod go then start next year with Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy in the rotation I was so ready to start respecting them again but they went back on their "we are going to get younger and cheaper" claim AGAIN.

Think about the fact that Scott Brosius hit about .203 the year before the
yanks acquired him. They took a shot anyway on a guy like that and it paid
off big time. If your a yanks fan who would you want up with the game on the
line in the bottom of the 9th, game 7 of the world series -Brosius or Arod?
I bet your answer is Brosius - And that is what is wrong with the yanks. They
are trying to buy it, not win it with grit. Unfortunately there is a level
where money will overcome that kind of problem and the yanks are on the
verge of it. They are very likely about to buy the 08 World Championship
and it won't mean squat because of the spending. Are Arod, Giambi, Abreau,
Clemens, Damon, Mussina, Santana or whoever else they buy "true" yankees? I don't think so. None of them could carry Paul O'Neils’ Jock.
Enjoy your hollow championship yank fans. The yanks certainly bought ...I
mean earned it.

So many teams are doing this now. Boston Red Sox's payroll, if they got Santana instead, would be right there with the Yankees, the Angels is spending tons of money on FA's, the Cubs would have spent a ton this year too if it wasn't for the fact that ownership situation isn't settled.

This is how the league is trending, not just the Yankees.

About the trade itself, meh, I hate doing it personally, I'm in the camp of Joba better than Hughes but still would hate to lose Hughes. Santana doesn't necessarily bring us over the top, there are still a lot of pitching issues.

I really laugh when I read some of these posts!

#1 - Hughes has better long term value and his potential over the next 10 years is more than Santana!

Are you serious? Where? When? Santana already has 2 Cy Young awards under his belt and should have a third when that lard butt Bartolo Colon won it a few years ago. So you are telling me that Hughes will win at least 2 Cy Young awards? Wow! Impressive Yankee fans! Santana is 28 years old. Some of you Yankee fans are making him out to be 35 with arm problems! Right now he is better than every darn pitcher you have. You couldn't add TWO pitchers on your staff together to equal the amount of talent that Santana has. Try your vanilla answers of ... well Wang and Hughes are better than Santana ... bull

I have watched Santana pitch for many years and the fact is that Santana, for the most part, guts out a lot of wins because of the inept Twins offense. When he has the lead, his stats are amazing. In a market on a good team, he might seriously win 22-25 games per year. The fact is that you are trying to win the World Series every year and if you sit around and wait for Hughes/Joba/Kennedy to develop - you're window will be long gone my friends. Posada, Jeter, Giambi, Matsui, Mussina, Rivera - they are OLD and your team is OLD - by the time you sit around and wait for your golden boys to emerge as legit guys - you're right back at the bottom of the crap barrel just like the 1980's. I'm sure guys like Jeter, Rivera, etc... love to hear we have to hold on to the young guys for the future when they already know they aren't good enough to win the World Series with what they have on their roster right now. FACE IT YANKEE Fans, your team is not that good right now as compared to the Angels, Red Sox, and Tigers.

#2 - We (Boston and New York fans) don't want and we don't need him. Are you serious again?

Face the facts. If he goes to Boston, you Yankee fans might as well kiss the next 5 years goodbye because you won't even come close to unseating the Red Sox for the crown. Don't even try with this crap of... Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, etc... will take us to the next level. What have they proven? Jack ___!!!

#3 - Let's forget Santana and move onto Danny Haren.

You guys are really in la-la land. Haren is another stud and if you think the A's are going to trade Haren to you for Lester/Lowrie or Kennedy/Horne, you're absolutely dillusional. The A's are even more frugal trading partners than the Twins are. Remember Mark Mulder and the Tim Hudson trades?

4 - Melky Cabrera/Coco Crisp in a deal plus one top prospect is good enough.

Face it! Coco sucks! Cabrera sucks! Crisp I don't even need to talk about but once again these Yankee fans talk about future all-star? Where? When? Cabrera gets 500+ AB last year and manages to hit .270 with no power - yeah - we have tons of those guys on the Twins - why would we want another guy who can't hit on our roster

#5 - The Twins are too cheap to pay their players.

The Twins are in the middle in payroll. the fact of the matter is that the Yankees and Boston are killing baseball economically right now. The arrogance of the big market teams is so sickening that everyone else in the sport wants to sit back and throw up when they hear Yankees/Mets/Boston/Angels/Dodgers when it comes to money. When will Pittsburgh or Colorado or Minnesota ever have a chance at signing someone good. Never, because the big market teams have a monopoly on the market. No one can deny that!

i love when people's comments consist of nothing but the news that the comments are referring to: "this just in! the yankees are willing to include hughes in the package!"

wait a minute, the tigers and angels are better than the yankees? tigers didn't even make the play-offs and the angels looked like they shouldn't have against the sox.

If Hank Steinbrenner had any balls or intelligence he would have let Arod go and gone with Hughes, Kennedy, and Joba next year. He just showed he is just as big a moronic, gutless, egotistacal, spoiled brat as his father if not bigger. I feel sorry that Brian Cashman has to deal with idiot son Hank. Cashman is the classiest thing about that organization since Hank disrespected then got rid of Torre.

Hughes is 21 years old, has basically the exact same repertoire as Josh Beckett, is homegrown, and would cost nothing for the next 5 years. They are trading that for a 29 year old, who is great, but will cost 150 mill for the next 7 years. nice job yanks

yanks in the 90's mostly homegrown with a high payroll but barely more than the 2nd, 3rd, 4th place payrolss = 4 World Champioships

yanks of the last 7 years - insane payroll way more than everyone else with very little NEW homegrown talent = 0 World championships

you do the math

They missed the boat when they didn't let Arod go and stick with Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy. They could have been a respectable team again like they were in the 90's.

I repeat:

22 big name acquisitions in a 8 year period - All either bloated long
>term deals, salary dump pickups, aging star signings, or contract
>extension deals. yankee gluttony is sickening.


>2001 Mike Mussina (88.5 mill)

>2002 Ja$on Giambi (120mill), David Wells (7mill)(pt. 2), Jeff
Weaver(22mill)

>2003 Hideki Matsui (21 mill), Jose Contreras (32 mill),

>2004 Gary Sheffield (39mill), Alex Rodriguez (70 milll), Kevin
Brown(33mill), Javier Vasquez(30mill)

2005 Randy Johnson(38mill), Jaret Wright(17mill), Carl Pavano(40mill)

2006 Johnny Damon(52 mill), Bobby Abreau(37mill
for 2.5 yrs), Hideki Matsui Pt.2 (52mill)

>2007 Andy Pettite(32mill), Mike Mussina Pt.2 (23mill) , Kei
Igawa(46mill), Roger Clemen$ (28 million [17 mill pro-rated])

2008 Alex Rodriguez pt. 2 (minimum 275 mill), Johan Santana (150 mill)

TOTAL = 1.25 BILLION not even counting luxury tax!

At least we know that the yankees won't win the world series in 08. A team from the Bronx will win it - However it's not the yanks it is just an assembly of All Stars, MVP's and Cy Young award winners who all made their name with other organizations and were just bought by the yankees. If you don't get it just look at Arod, Damon, Mussina, Abreau, Santana, Giambi, Matsui - Those are not "true yankees". They were superstars with other organizations who were simply bought by the yanks. Before you throw Jeter and Posada and Rivera and Cano at me realize that they aren't the ones who will carry the yanks to the 08 world series championship. Arod and Santana will. Deal with it. A 200 million+ All Star team from the Bronx will win the World Series in 08 - They go by the name yankees but they aren't "true yankees"

Even pettitte lost his “True yankee” status. First he went “home” to the Astros 4 years ago and then last year when the yanks offered him 32 million for two years he only accepted AFTER he went back to the Astros offered them a discount of 28 million and they refused.

"This deal is done - Santana is a yankee"

G.H. Hecks, why do you say this? Has it actually been confirmed, or are you theorizing?

Pettite spent nine years pitching for Yankees and He came up from Yankees farm system. Therefore He's true Yankees like Manny Ramirez who sign with Boston Redsox.

Edit Message
Is the lack of a salary cap the problem in baseball?

http://mvn.com/thelastpage/2007/11/30/is-the-lack-of-a-salary-cap-the-problem-in-baseball/

I constantly hear people clamoring for a salary cap in Major League Baseball. Fans have an image of a broken league where money rules all and the little guys just can?t win. However, the empirical evidence clearly states otherwise: that Major League Baseball is as competitive now as ever.

There are two (logically flawed) reasons that I?ve heard fans use to justify a salary cap:

1. High Salaries encourage high ticket and concession prices
2. A salary cap would alleviate competitive balance issues in baseball


Would a salary cap make it cheaper for me to go to the Stadium?

Baseball games are ridiculously expensive. It can cost a family of four close to four hundred dollars for an afternoon in good seats at Yankee Stadium. A salary cap would lower payroll expenses for MLB teams, so wouldn?t this mean they wouldn?t have to charge so much to compensate?

Unfortunately, that?s now how a business works. The Yankees will maximize revenue by charging the as much as people will pay for tickets ? just like any other product. The high ticket prices in baseball stem from a supply and demand problem. Baseball stadiums haven?t grown much in size in recent years ? Yankee Stadium held 55,000 in 1980, and 55,000 today. A lot more people want to watch the Yankees than did in 1980. Supply stays the same, and Demand increases, causing price to increase.

I think that an important issue arises here: who does a salary cap hurt? We?ll talk about competitive balance in a second, but let?s look at this just in the context of money. Fans play the same. Owners, theoretically, collect the same. However, the players lose out. Any salary cap would necessarily mean less money going to the players, money which they deserve.

I?m going to go out on a limb here at state that MLB players are underpaid. That?s not a popular sentiment among baseball fans ? pretty much everyone reading this article would play for the Yankees for free ? but its reality. The players are the product. Tens of thousands are willing to pay huge sums to come out and watch them play every day. Millions will watch them on television, buy their merchandise, and do all the things fans pay to do. However, the owners have a favorable system in place to hold down salaries ? the draft, entry level salary structure, and a favorable arbitration system. When players are at the height of their athletic careers, between the ages of 25 and 29 for most, the free market cannot determine their salary.

Revenues have risen much faster than salaries in recent years. Over the past two off-seasons, the gap has narrowed, but the free agent problem persists. Miguel Cabrera was worth much more to his team than the 7.4 million he was paid in 2007. Owners certainly deserve some money ? they take investment risks, provide facilities, marketing, and branding, but I don?t think anyone can argue that they deserve a higher proportion than the status quo.

Luckily, the salary structure of baseball has a very beneficial side effect: It ensures a competitive league.


Would a salary cap solve a competitive balance problem in baseball?

I?m going to tackle this in two steps. First off, I?ll ask is there a competitive balance problem in baseball? Second, I?ll ask what would a salary cap do?

There is no competitive balance problem in baseball. None at all. Parity in baseball is so healthy that personally, I think that it?s ridiculous that it?s even a question. The best team in the MLB last year had a winning percentage of 59.3 %. The Boston Red Sox ? owners of a 140+ million dollar payroll, couldn?t even win 60% of the time The worst team in baseball, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, managed a 40.7% winning percentage. What does that mean? I means that if I?m a fan of the worst team in baseball, I?ll still see my team win roughly 3 out of every 7 games.

Let?s compare this to the NFL ? a salary capped leagues. In the NFL, the average winning percentage for a last place team was 27.3%. Two teams ? the Oakland Raiders and Detroit Lions ? weren?t able to crack 20%. The worst teams in Football win half as much as the worst teams in baseball. Five teams posted winning percentages over 75%. The NFL has some non-cap related issues here ? namely the 16 game schedule, but it helps to put baseball in perspective. Imagine being an Oakland Raiders fan? Why even show up?

What about the playoffs? Since the Yankee dynasty was broken up in 2001, only five teams in the American League and four teams in the National League have failed to make the playoffs. Five years! Over 2/3 of baseball fans have had the opportunity to watch their team in October baseball in a very short period of time. I?m no expert on the NFL, but I?d wager that less than 2/3 of NFL teams in the past five years have made the post-season.


Winning in the playoffs? Since the Yankee dynasty ended, only three teams have managed to make two World Series ? the Cardinals, Yankees and the Red Sox, and only the Red Sox were able to win. The Giants, Marlins, Yankees, Angels, Diamondbacks, Astros, Rockies, Red Sox, Cardinals, and White Sox are a diverse group. They come from large, medium, and small markets.

What would a salary cap do? Would a salary cap really make the Pirates competitive? No it wouldn?t. The only thing that would have made the Pirates competitive would have been intelligent management. Salary cap or not, poor organizations aren?t going to win ballgames. Teams that start Angel Berroa at shortstop for years, insist upon treating Mike Sweeney like a real hitter, or throw in Oliver Perez to a trade without the opposing GM asking for him are going to lose, and it?s their own fault. It sucks to be a fan watching your team waste away, but it has nothing to do with a salary cap. The Marlins are still going to maintain a pitifully low payroll compared to their competition whether their competition is spending 120 million or 95 million.

Eventually, smart people will replace stupid people in the Pirates organization, and stupid people will replace smart people in the Braves organization. It?s the nature cycle of baseball. We?re seeing one smart GM?s work with the Dodgers being dismantled by a stupid one, distributing talent throughout the league. We saw the Colorado Rockies build a team on scant resources into a World Series contender ? one that should stick together for a few more years at least. We?re seeing the Arizona Diamondbacks, Milwaukee Brewers and Tampa Bay Devil Rays assemble potential powerhouses, using young and talented players combine with good scouting and good timing.

They are able to do so because baseball?s current economic structure allows them to do so. Player development is cheap ? the salaries of two dozen scouts is often far less than the salary of one major league player. Returns on investment are high because young players are paid peanuts. Ryan Braun didn?t even make 380,000 dollars this year. Phil Hughes made less for the full season than Roger Clemens each start. Miguel Cabrera made half of what Scott Rolen makes. Clubs are able to control these players during the prime of their career ? the average free agent doesn?t hit the market until he is 28 or 29 years old.

Free agency is a gambler?s market. Teams spend a lot of money on often uncertain investments. Mike Mussina was paid 19 million dollars in 2006 at the age of 37 because when he was 31, he was among the game?s top pitchers. Teams can spend a lot of money, but the reality of long term deals often means teams end up with dead weight on their roster ? the Yankees have Jason Giambi, the Dodgers have Juan Pierre, the Athletics had Jason Kendall, and so on. Spending more money on free agents creates a system of diminishing returns ? decreasing monetary advantage.

Money isn?t the problem. Management is. Baseball teams are getting smarter, which is highlighting the differences between the good managers and the bad managers. The Rockies learned their lesson. The Devil Rays are learning their lesson. The Baltimore Orioles, Texas Rangers, and San Francisco Giants clearly are going the other way. But that?s an issue for another day. It has nothing to do with a salary cap. Can?t we stop being distracted by this issue and focus on baseball?

Comments by Ken Rosenthal and his recent column - Yanks' deep pockets set them apart

Quote:http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7506206?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

The Yankees treat the luxury tax in the same brazen way that certain celebrities treat rehabilitation centers ? as part of the price for maintaining a gaudy lifestyle.

They check in, check out and proceed just as before.

The Yankees' signings of Alex Rodriguez, Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada for a combined $372.4 million weren't outrageous simply because each of those players will be 33 or older in the first years of their contracts.

No, they were outrageous because the actual costs will be far greater if the Yankees remain over the luxury-tax threshold for the durations of the three players' contracts ? and if the tax remains in effect after the current labor agreement expires in 2011 and throughout Rodriguez's entire 10-year deal.


This is the reason Why Baseball needs a salary cap by Stupid writer and Yankee hater named Ken Rosenthal. He's blaming Yankees for ruining baseball like this stupid column He wrote today. He didn't mentioned the Redsox at all because they do it the right way of course. Where's Double Standard? Yankees are mimicking Redsox says Rosenthal by by developing young talent with frightening efficiency? Are you kidding me? Is this joke? Yankees aren't copying Redsox. It's other way Around , f*ck*ng nimrod... The Yankees had homegrown players than Redsox. The Redsox are bunch of mercenary n their team. The Yankees brought up Wang,Cano,Cabrera in 2005. Pedrioa was called up this year. Who won The World Series this year ? Oh that's right Boston Redsox did, They beat lousy small market Colorado Rockies and Cleveland Indians.


Mr.Rosenthal never understand to be Ny Sports Fan like Myself. The Yankees are only team in NY that give me happiness and joy as Fan and they win... Others sports team in Ny like NY Jets and NY Knicks are obsolete joke. How many years since NY Knicks and NY Jets won a championship?. It's about nearly 80 years. Thanks to Larry "Lucifer" Lucchinno and Mr.John Henry took away happiness and joy as NY baseball fan when Redsox in 2004 .

The Bostons sports fan must be living in heaven right now because Pats are winning and undefeated, going to four super bowl title. The Celtics are back from dead and probably win their 17 nba title. Lastly, The Redsox just won their second world series title in last four years.

From reading The Article, Mr. Rosenthal it seems He doesn't want Yankees getting Santana and Let Redsox have him of course. They already have Beckett as their Ace and have better rotation than Yankees. They just won the world series

In that case Mr.Rosenthal , Redsox should let go Varitek in 2004 and don't offer him a contract. then.

If Posada leaves who will replaces him?


For crying out loud. Redsox gave Lugo a four year and Jd drew a five year deal.


Everyone blames the Yankees for driving free agent prices up, but imagine if they were the team to stand up to Boras and stop taking his sh#t.


The Media use The Yankees like a punching bag , hated and meanwhile Redsox gets the love fest. The Redsox have second highest payroll in baseball. How do Drays , Royals and their fans feel ?


The Yankees are big bad Yankees. How about the Redsox? The Redsox are now The Big Bad and New Bully on the block other than Yankees.

What year did Yankees won the World Series ? Did Yankees management waited patiently all this years without winning the World Series?.... Everyone hates Yankees, loves the Redsox so much.. It seems the Yankees are disrespected all these years from Media .. I think media scared of The Redsox, and doesn't have guts to kill them or either They're working with Redsox organization.. with Boston Mafia something. They love to criticize Yankees and kill them.

If you don't count Jeter and Posada, Rivera out of Yankees Payroll, What's the Yankees payroll will be? All these Players came out from Yankees Farm system, now Every Yankees haters complained how much they make. Against Redsox, The Media don't bring up their Payroll like Lugo, Lowell, Varitek, Jd Drew, Coco Crisp and Manny Ramirez.

Spoiled Arrogance are Redsox Fans and Bostons Fans.. The Redsox won in 2004, yet they still moaning and groaning that One championship is not enough... Enough with Redsox mentality that They're Underdogs. The Celtics won 16 championships and Pats won 3 supebowls , How would you feel as Jets and Knicks Fans like myself who never won a championships near fourty years. The Redsox are new Evil Empire thanks to Larry "Lucifer" Lucchinno. The Yankees have homegrown players than Redsox. Redsox are bunch of Mercanaries on their team. Don't tell Big Papi and Manny came up from Redsox Farm system. Also, Lugo, Jd Drew, Beckett, Matsuzaka, Crisp, Lowell [former Yankees farmhand]. I think Jason Varitek "aka Captain of Redsox" should not be captain instead of Trot Nixon which Redsox management decided not to resign.

The Red Sox are obsessed with the Yankees while Yankee fans are merely REACTING TO Red Sox fans. Who started with the anger and hatred and obsession? Who has more reason to envy the other team? Obviously the Red Sox have more reason to envy the Yankees and have been doing so for 100 years. So the Red Sox won in 2004 and are in the World Series. Big deal. It's not enough for the Yankees fans to envy and obsess over them more than Baltimore or Toronto or the Angels. The Red Sox started this relentless obsession while the Yankees are defending themselves. After all, when someone despises you and tries to hurt you and is obsessed with pulling you down, just because you're better than they are, it's natural to defend yourself and react with anger. And that's exactly what's happening between the Yankees and Red Sox. But the Red Sox started this 100 years ago and haven't let up since.


Competitive balance IS good for baseball.


There was competitive balance before 1997, just like there is competitive balance after 1997. Just look at the facts:

World Series Champions, 1987 - 1997

1987 - Minnesota
1988 - Los Angeles
1989 - Oakland
1990 - Cincinnati
1991 - Minnesota
1992 - Toronto
1993 - Toronto
1995 - Atlanta
1996 - New York Yankees
1997 - Florida

Is that not competitive enough? Oakland, Florida, Minnesota, Cincinnati? These are the current welfare queens of baseball, raking in tens of millions in free cash every single season, which makes losing in 2007 as profitable as winning a World Series a decade earlier. If you're an owner simply looking to line your pockets that's the ultimate win-win situation.

AL East Spend: Internally Developed vs. Acquired Players

http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=564

Thanks to Mike Pagliarulo for Breaking down The Al East teams

Here?s a (rough, unscientific) look at how much money teams in the AL East are spending on players developed internally versus players acquired via trade/free agency. Not sure how much this comparison tells us, but it?s interesting that the Red Sox have a much higher spend % on acquired players than the other teams. Updated 11/21/07.

In that case , Redsox should let go Varitek in 2004 and don't offer him a contract..

If Posada leaves who will replaces him?


For crying out loud. Redsox gave Lugo a four year and Jd drew a five year deal.


Everyone blames the Yankees for driving free agent prices up, but imagine if they were the team to stand up to Boras and stop taking his sh#t.


Enough with the Payroll

Okay, fine. The Indians beat the Yankees, and they have a much smaller payroll. So what? Payroll has never guaranteed anything, it just helps ensure more talent. The most talented teams often dont win the world series.

Spending more doesn't guarantee anything in any business. You can spend the most on advertising, but that doesnt mean your product will outsell a competitor. And you know what? You wont see the company that spent less on advertising wont gloat or mention the difference in spending if they made more of a profit.

When the Yankees won it all in 98, were you all praising them for having the 2nd highest payroll?

The Indians beating the Yankees isnt impressive because of the dispairity in payroll. Its impressive because they are young and less expierenced, and the Yankees have so many great players. Its impressive because the Yankees have the best player in the game, and hall of famers all over the roster.

I dont get why fans are using payroll as something to rub in the face of Yankee fans. Do you really think it bothers the Yankee fans that their owner invested more money in their team? All they care about right now is the fact that their season is over. They arent thinking about how many millions were spent. And it wasnt even a failure. They drew 4 million fans, made the playoffs, won 90+ games...24 teams WISH they had a season as bad as the Yankees. Are the White Sox happy they only spent 108 mil? Are the Rangers happy with how much they spent?

Im guessing if youre bringing it up, you probably think baseball needs a salary cap. But doesnt this season prove it doesnt? Or make for a difficult argument? D Backs 52 mil, Rockies 54, Tribe, 61 mil. Brewers made a heck of a run, 70 mil. Mets, Dodgers, White Sox, M's, Tigers, O's, Giants, Cards..all over 90 mil, and didnt make the playoffs.

SO be happy they lost. But to bring up payroll? Thats just silly. They play within the rules, so it isnt unfair. It might be time to change the rule, but the Yankees arent cheating. And they are in the playoffs every year, how many teams can claim that? How many fans have seen their favorite players have to move on becaues the team couldnt afford it? Look at how many home grown players they kept for 10 or more years. Jeter, Mo, Posada, Bernie. We all wish our teams did that with their best home grown talent.

I have beef with the Yankees about payroll too..because they overpay their own players, and that drives up salaries for everyone else. But t hats not their problem, thats MLBs problem. You dont like the structure, thats fine. Neither do i. But thats baseballs fault, not the Yankees. Glad they lost? Ok, enjoy the fact that a team with 4 Hall of Famers just fell. Take it to mean anythings possible. But to focus on the money that team spent? Thats dumb, sorry, it just is.

Jeter's contract was so large b/c of Tom Hicks
Yankees offered Bernie his contract in response to what the Red Sox offered him.
Rivera got what guys like Robb Nen got, and so on.

The Yankees never set the market, they went along with it.

Salary Cap in Baseball.
As a Yankees Fan, I want Salary Cap in Baseball Once a for All just to shutup Yankees haters and Media. Every Media and The Yankees haters criticizing yankees for buying pennants and championships thru free agency. Yankees needs to prove doubters and Yankees haters wrong that They can win thru building thru farm system and salary cap in place.. Is it me that Media loves the Redsox more than Yankees because of "Underdog" role and lovable losers mentality until they won a championship in 2004? And Fact The Yankees are Evil and Redsox are good since Mr Larry Lucchinno aka Lucifer shouted "The Yankees are Evil Empire" around the World.... The Yankees haters can't stand NY and what Ny represent for because They're Jealous . City like Ny has everything to offer unlike other cities in Usa. How would Larry aka Lucifer feel a team like Jets and Knicks haven't won championship for fourty years while Celtics won 16 championships and Patriots won 3 ? Every Boston sports Fan still moaning and crying because They haven't won championship for years.


Please Mr.Selig, I want a Salary Cap in Baseball once a for all . I had enough of media critizing Yankees more than Redsox... "Everyone loves Redsox because they do it in right way. Like spending on Matsuzaka, Jd.Drew, Lugo. Eric Gagne... I bet Manny and Ortiz came thru Redsox farm system. Jason Varitek doesn't deserved The Captain since He never came up thru Boston Organization. He was traded from Mariners Organization along with Derek Lowe on Heathcliffe Slocumb trade.

"This deal is done - Santana is a yankee"

"G.H. Hecks, why do you say this? Has it actually been confirmed, or are you theorizing?"

Sorry Ellis - I shouldn't state it as fact. I am theorizing but I doubt it goes any other way

Arcthelad09: longest, post, ever.

Yanks and Red Sox are both pure evil. And the Cubs are trying to get there.

Arcthelad09, doesn't seem like the Yanks have bought any pennants for awhile...

I am a Yankee/Sox hater, but I am rooting for the Yanks to get Santana. Bopstonians have become obnoxious of late. Enjoy your sports Bostonians, because the one thing you can never brag about is the women that live in your city...YIKES.

dissapointing. Can't they trade Kennedy instead?

1. Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera alone are too high a price to pay (not to mention the $20m per year) ... I hope this deal falls apart during contract extension talks

2. Even though I am a Yankee fan, I believe there should be a salary cap in baseball. It should be set higher than what 2/3 of the teams are spending but, it should exist. However, if that was to be put in place, the visiting teams affected by salary caps should receive 10% of the ticket revenue generated by their appearance versus non-salary capped team.

I would stick to my guns if I was the Yanks no Hughes and package around Kennedy and Melky.

If need be, let Boston get Santana and sign him and Beckett to $20-25M a yr contracts.

I believe Hughes is something special and better than Santana at $25M per year for six years.

Outside of Santana and Haren who else is on the market for trade.

Trade Mussina for Prior (both are risks)

Is Peavy set to hit the market next winter?

Not until after 2009

To all the fans that say including Hughes is not enough:

"Thank you walkoff...my point exactly...The red sox four man package(even with crisp in t) is still more appealing than Hughes, melky and a prospect"

This is why I see you being wrong. Yes, Melky and Coco can be considered equal, disregarding the salary. You have to take into account though that Melky is young and could improve, while Crisp is at about as good as he can get, and he isn't bad. {The next problem I see with what you are saying is in regards to Masterson. Why would the Twins want him? He is a sinker ball pitcher, and we all know that is the last thing they want with that bouncy ball surface of theirs. Masterson could be a #3-#5 man in a rotation yes, but that is also what the Twins are not looking for. Also he won't be starting the season in the majors, and I'm assuming they would want an immediate impact guy after losing Santana. if he were to be included}. They need a #1 guy. Another problem with the Sox package is Bowden, he is young, which is a plus, but he is also in the low levels (probably AA to start '08 again). He is going to need to drastically improve his AA numbers before he is even considered for any kind of promotion. I can see the Twins not wanting him because he is not an immediate impact guy. Also at this point he doesn't seem close to a top of the rotation guy, more like middle or back end. Neither Masterson nor Bowden are sure things either, while you can state the case that Hughes, Kennedy, and Buchholz have a much better chance. Lester is an option for them, but again not as sure thing as HBK. I like him, he has good stuff, but not #1 stuff. Hughes on the other hand has been one of the most highly anticipated arrivals to bigs, and when he was healthy his stuff was excellent. He like Buchholz has a chance to be a star and lead a rotation, not to mention the fact that he/they has/have already semi-broken into the majors. Finally the addition of Jed Lowry to the trade did nothing for me. He seems to have a pretty limited ceiling. He strikes as a Julio Lugo type hitter, good enough to be a major league starter, but far from a star. The Yankees would most likely include Tabata or Jackson here, who both are far superior ceiling wise to Jed. Not to mention Jackson just turned 20 and Tabata is still 19. If the Red Sox wanted to throw in a good position player (which they won't because Theo seems to think spare parts are fine) then they would need to throw in someone like Lars Anderson or something to equal either of those 2. I think the Red Sox deal is inferior to that of the Yankees unless, they include Clay or Jacoby or both, depending on what the Yankees put (hopefully not Kennedy too). I feel I made a strong argument for why this is the case.

Wow ... a couple marathon posts.

Yankee fans don't seem to understand why other fans are so upset about the money they spend.

Look, it's quite simple. The Yankees resigned 2 aging, way past their prime individuals. The average amount of their salary would be the highest salary of about half the teams. Yet, the Yankees do it without thinking twice.

A-Rod hits the market. No problem, the Yankees pay the guy $30+m for 10 years.

Best pitcher in baseball hits the market, the Yankees will trade for him and then sign him to the largest pitching contract in baseball.

The fact is, people hate the Yankees because they are playing on a slanted field. Any mistakes they make can be fixed. Any weaknesses they have can be addressed. Not because they run a great organization, rather, they can go out and buy repairs other teams can't.

It is a miracle that they haven't won every year. It shows two things: (1) in a short series anything is possible and (2) the Yankees don't run the most effective organization.

Talk all you want about home grown talent. You can point to Posada/Rivera/Jeter but how about a prospect in the past DECADE. Cano? Wang? Not like the Yanks have a history of developing talent.

Finally, people hate the Red Sox as much. They are a tick lower though because they spend less money. They have also been an underdog for so long. Over the next few years this underdog perception will continue to erode and people will really look at them as Yankees lite. Maybe not as EVIL, but just about.

gee-zus! I guess I'm not so long winded!

"I constantly hear people clamoring for a salary cap in Major League Baseball. Fans have an image of a broken league where money rules all and the little guys just can?t win. However, the empirical evidence clearly states otherwise: that Major League Baseball is as competitive now as ever."

That is only true as long as the Yankees remain the worse run team in sports. Boston, for instance, and possibly the Angels, are starting to put front offices together that combine both intelligent baseball decision making and an astronomical budget. These are the teams to fear for long term dominance and a lack of balance in baseball. A team that spends 1.2 billion dollars and hasn't got out the first round of the playoffs in the last three years is a team to ridicule, not fear.

honestly no salary cap arch the lad made good points about not needing a salary cap because competiv balance is pretty good because teams control guys in their prime for little money, but as a huge red sox fan i can say i hate the yankees just because their the yankees not because of their salary. when all the fans of crappy teams in the league say screw yanks and soox we do it the right way, i just laugh because if you are ok with spending nothing and making crap moves and losing the right way, thats fine with me, but i'll take a smart team that will spend some to win

"thats fine with me, but i'll take a smart team that will spend some to win"

It just took the Red Sox 86 years to figure it out.

About the Yankees spending money. Yes they do because they can. But you have to look at the root issue as to why these players want such exorbidant contracts.

Fact:
Santana will demand $20-25MM per year
Why? Because the Giants gave Zito a 7/126 deal or $18MM per season
Is that the Yankees fault? No

Fact:
Who gave A-Rod the original 10/252 or $25.2MM/yr contract?
Tom Hicks with the Rangers.
That inflated the price of SS in the league, hence Jeter's $18MM per year contract as well as inflating the market for superstars in general, which is why we had to pay through the nose for Giambi.
Yankees fault? No.

Fact:
Mets gave Wagner $10MM/year to make him the highest paid closer.
Of course the best closer in the history of the game will want a raise over Wagner because he is still better than him even at 38. As such, the Yankees gave him a raise.
Yankees fault, no.

Who gave Kevin Brown all that dough, oh, it was the Dodgers. The Yankees ate it but the Dodgers gave him the contract.

The Yankees spend and overspend really because they can but they don't drive the market prices up. That is due to one stupid owner.

Football has a salary cap and the same teams are good year after year. Did the Red Sox even make the playoffs in 2006? No. I think a system needs to be developed to enable a team like the Twins to be able to keep the best pitcher in baseball, but very few owners are willing to shell out their own money to put a winning team on the field.

Minnesota can't afford Santana because of the Giant's, not the Yankees. Had Zito been given a 6/72 deal more closely to what he was worth at the time Minnesota's could've extended Santana for 4/60-65. Again, not the Yankees fault the Twins can't afford him now.

I agree with Arcthelad09 on the Homegrown talent. I never understood why the Red Sox got a pass on this in 2004. After Nomar was traded, they had one contributing homegrown player Youkliss who got 200 reg. season AB's and exactly 2 in the postseason.

Everyone kills the Yanks for overpaying to keep their homegrown talent, but then they kill the Yanks when they sign or trade for big name talent. You can't have it both ways.

What distinguishes Boston is their ability to cultivate an environemnt that gets player's under contract/extension for less than market value - Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling, Wakefield. These balance some of their absurd signings like Lugo and Drew. For the love of god, Ortiz signed for 07-10 for only $12.5 mil a season - DH be damned, that man should fire his agents!

This is where what I call the "Yankee markup" comes into play and the Steinbrenners kill the franchise - no one is taking a hometown discount for a team that issues ultimatums to the manager during the playoffs. The Yankees have created the most pressurized environment probably in all of US sports, with so much baggage that they HAVE to overpay to lure talent.

mind_vs_body,

Well said. People want to play for the Yankees because they want to get paid. Ala, Carl "Buttocks" Pavano. I honestly believe he had no intention of wanting to play for the Yankees because obviously he couldn't handle the pressure, but he wanted to get paid and everyone knows you will most likely get the best offer from the Yankees. The Steinbrenners need to let Cashman do his job. When the old man was incapacitated Cashman built up our farm system in 3 years. Now a new, and I believe improved and more rational, Steinbrenner is in power and appears to be acting as the GM.

For the record I do think the Yankees new offer is better than the Red Sox if the third prospect is Jackson (albeit not by as much as some may think). However, just adding Hughes does not put them over the top by itself, ie not allowing them to skimp in other places on the deal. If the Red Sox bluffed and subbed Buchholz for Lester in the package they might be back in the lead which could force the Yankees into adding kennedy.

The Twins want the Red Sox to add either center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury or pitcher Clay Buchholz to the deal, and there are indications that if they do, that offer is what Minnesota will prefer.

----------------------------

The Buster Olney article said either Buchholz or Ellsbury, not both. Theo has said he won't do both in a deal.

The Twins want Ellsbury, I really don't think they'll even really actually think about dealing Santana to Boston unless they get him, Contrary to what they make the Yankees think. I'm almost scared to think if the BoSox put Ellsbury, Lester and a couple others package together, which I believe would be the Twins 1st choice then, what the Yankees would come back with. Hal and Hank want Santana bad and I can for see them making a bad decision if the Twins get close to deal for those sox prospects. Although I am a Twins fan, and like to see the evil empireS fight, I think these trade talks are going to get pretty crazy over the winter meetings, and I'm pumped for it.

Just a guess, but if Ellsbury comes into a package, I can easily see the Yanks throwing Kennedy into the Hughes+Melky package and if that doesn't make the Twins change their mind, god only knows what the yanks will offer next. At that point I honestly think they'll do whatever it takes from letting boston get Santana, because they know they're in to of trouble the next 3 years for sure if the BoSox have a starting rotation like that and Manny and Ortiz in the middle of that lineup.

Every so often we see it posted on here, but I have to ask yet again ~ Why in the world do people think Kennedy and Melky alone should be enough to get this done?

Kennedy is a pitcher the Yanks bought in the Draft 1.5 years ago (remember that the Draft doesn’t go in order of talent, it goes in order of who can spend money ~ so yeas “bought” is the proper word). If the Twins really wanted a Kennedy, they could just get the DP from Santana walking and buy their own Kennedy with it.

Cabrera is a dime-a-dozen slap hitter. He has a fair BA ability without the ability to show much of anything for SLG and only mediocre patience at the plate. Min already has their own Melky, Jason Tyner ~ why do they need another? If they did though, they could just bring up some plus-fielder from AAA ~ you basically have a 50/50 shot of having the guy being atleast LgAvg and at worst he cant be that much lower…

Fact is that Kennedy + Melky holds absolutely minimal value to the Twins. It needs to be dramatically higher return to get the best pitcher in baseball…

"Trade Mussina for Prior (both are risks)"

Yeah. Because the Cubs would think trading a guy who's 27 and who could still be a decent 3 with some luck at about $4M, for a guy who is 39, getting paid $17M, and wont be better than a 4. That deal would be the Cubs getting screwed over. Not only that but the odds of the Cubs taking on a salary even remotely close to that while the sale of the team is still pending is pretty much zero. Im running out of reasons for why this is a dumb idea. Oh wait, but for the Yankees it'd be a steal.

Any Yankees fans here willing to speculate on the possible 3rd prospect added to the potential Hughes/Cabrera package?

"Just a guess, but if Ellsbury comes into a package, I can easily see the Yanks throwing Kennedy into the Hughes+Melky package"

If the Yankees offer Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera and the Twins turn that down, Bill Smith should be fired. He's not going to get more than that. What would he be thinking, the Sox are gonna come crying back with a Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie, Bowden, Pedroia, and Josh Beckett offer?

Luckily if that offer were ever to be made then this deal is done.

Wow. they're actually offering Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera. I'm guessing thats the swift work of Hank and not Brian Cashman.

Kennedy just isn't that valuable to the Twins. If he is so great, why don't the Yankees use him to get a young infielder, and then add that infielder to the deal? The Twins need position players. A good pitcher, mediocre CF, and mediocre SP isn't enough for a Hall of Fame pitcher. If the Yankees can bring in a 3rd team that actually wants Kennedy, then by all means...

Cabrera, Kennedy, AND Hughes? If that's true and Bill Smith doesn't accept, he's nuts!! The sooner he realizes that the Sox will NOT include Ellsbury in any trade discussions, the sooner this matter gets resolved.

Kennedy too! That would be the worst thing the yanks could do. They should just do Kennedy, cabrera, and Joba. They can't afford to lose Hughes and Kennedy; the two best of their top three.
http://ultimatebaseball-cGouds.blogspot.com

@jehu:

Because that leaves them with 4 pitchers and one of them is Mussina who only pitches well with lots of rest.

--

If that offer is true... I'm f*$king done with this team.

I held out all through the past 6 years, thinking that it was only a matter of time Cashman convinced them that buying veterans wouldn't work.

He did. He created a development machine and perhaps the deepest system in the majors.

And now a retarded owner with an inferiority complex and a stupid desire to show he's better than his dad is going to throw away 2 of the best pitching prospects the Yankees have produced in the last decade.

I used to defend the Yankees when people called them evil because George wasn't evil. He just wanted to win.

These two fools? They just want to show everyone they belong.

F$*cking morons.

And to those reading this: Hank would've traded Joba in a heartbeat if he wasn't adopted by the Yankees fans as their own.

If the yanks give up Hughes and Kennedy they will be the offseason's biggest losers!!

Neal has already backed of his assertion the yankees are including kennedy if you read the article. If Olney's report is accurate then you can all but pin the Yankees current offer on Hughes, Melky, Jackson. It remains worth asking if the Twins dislike crisp so much why do they want Melky?

La Velle E. Neal III is a retard. C'mon do you actually believe him. I'll go to Buster Olney on this one. Yankees do stupid thing, I'll admit, but not that stupid. this reporter just wants publicity for an idiotic rumor.

La Velle E. Neal is not a retard or dishonest. Far from it. He's an extremely good and accurate reporter- far more so than most of those covering the Yankees. He certainly isn't looking for "publicity." He broke the Young-Garza trade and nailed the terms. One of his sources probably mis-spoke, and he's noted that Kennedy probably isn't part of the deal.

Regardless - Hughes and Cabrera is not enough to even come close to getting this deal done!

You Yankee fans are dillussional!!!!

Basically it would Hughes for Santana - Cabrera means nothing in the deal - keep dreaming you idiots!

I'm just waiting for Brian Cashmen to resign because he can't take the baby Steinbrenner anymore. That would flush the Yanks down the toilet for at least 5 years, if they weren't going there anyways.

If the yanks give up Hughes and Kennedy they will be the offseason's biggest losers!!

Keeping Arod and acquiring Santana and the Yankees would be the "offseason's biggest losers."

I know Hughes and Kennedy are highly touted prospects...but they're still unproven.

It's hard to call a team an offseason loser when they keep the singular best position player (Arod) and acquire the singular best pitcher (Johan).

Kennedy is a decent prospect at best. Melky is a below average CF. Hughes has potential to be 1/2.

Still not a tremendous haul for the best pitcher in the game.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the Sox up their offer to include Ellsbury.

sure giving up kennedy + hughes contradicts everything cashman has been trying to accomplish

it makes the yankees a team to be feared for at least a season

"It's hard to call a team an offseason loser when they keep the singular best position player (Arod) and acquire the singular best pitcher (Johan)."

Santana would be an upgrade on Petitte but would not be as great an upgrade over the loss of Petitte and Hughes. What else have they done? They signed two aging stars to multi-year packages. Hard to expect they do better then they did last year. These signings were not upgrades. ARod was with them last year, when for a third year they couldn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs. ARod's signing is not an upgrade. So exactly what have they really done to buy the World Series even if they sign Santana?

The sox are NOT giving up Ellsbury....The whole theory is that:Lester,Crisp,lowrie and Masterson/Bowden is more desireale than Hughes,Melky and some single kid like Tabata or Jackson...Either the Sox win this deal or the Yanks give in and throw Kennedy to the mix and the Sox go get Haren....Either way...Theo Win's again...this guy is F'n brilliant

I just want to know what happened to the two to three guys who 2 weeks ago insisted to me that the Yankees were infact going in some new direction where they wouldn’t be signing big contracts and instead be using all these rookies all the time. These guys insisted that the payroll would infact decrease within 2-3 years despite the resigning of ARod, Rivera and Posada and that the rotation would remain pretty cheap with Joba/Hughes/Kennedy being the front-end of it for years. Cashman afterall had told them that he was going to limit the bad deals to ageing vets and go with internal options for the rotation…

…where are those guys now who called me nuts when I suggested that some of Hughes/Joba/Kennedy wouldn’t be with the team or that the Yanks wouldn’t decrease payroll… Where are you now, ya Yankee Homers…

The yankees decrease payroll? HAHAHA

do the sox really need haren?

it's going to cost about the same as santana in prospects

Possibly...but Haren is younger..almost as good and will come MUCH cheaper

Personally I think Haren fits into that rotation better than Santana..and No we dont NEED him but come on...wouldnt you like to see this 6 man roster next year

Beckett
Haren
Matsuzaka
Buchholz
Schilling
Wakefield

I still think that for some reason or another, the Yankees are going to end up sending Hughes, Cabrera, and Kenneddy to the Twins for Johan. But if not Kennedy, it'll be someone like Horne.

There's no way - NO WAY - Hank is going to let Theo "beat him". I've been saying that all along. Theo knows this and is playing right along with the game. In the end, Hank "wins" by sending two of his best pitching prospects and Cabrera to Minnesota in exchange for the "honor" of paying Johan 20+ million a year for 6-7 years. Theo "loses" by trading for Dan Haren, which in my opinion, was the plan all along.

It amuses me to hear Yankees fans talking about spending and building with youth and blah-blah-blah. Everyone knows that the Steinbrenners don't think about the future - they think about winning NOW. And since money isn't an obstacle, why not spend it? After all, if you got it, use it, right?

"Regardless - Hughes and Cabrera is not enough to even come close to getting this deal done!
You Yankee fans are dillussional!!!!
Basically it would Hughes for Santana - Cabrera means nothing in the deal - keep dreaming you idiots!"

You are quite off base. Phil Hughes is one of top 3-4 pitching prospects in baseball, Melky will be at least a solid center fielder for a few years, and the third prospect, likely Alan Horne, has the potential to be a good back of the rotation guy. Melky is actually a very important piece of this deal, because you guys have a hole in center and he's a quite good option for you considering your owner is a cheap ass prick. You should just be happy you're getting Hughes. You're gonna need all the good young pitching you can get considering what the Tigers have (Verlander, Bonderman, Miller and Porcello, that could be 4 aces)

@tolo

U've got to understand that many people on here dont understand that though and it has to be pounded into there brains over and over that Ellsbury and Buchholz are not going anywhere and that Theo is the F'n man...

Not the Attorney General!?!?

:D

Well it's a damned sight better than losing Kennedy.

I'm fairly sure AG goes. They don't really have a use for him since Betemit is the de facto utility guy and Jeter/Cano/ARod take up the IF spots.

Man is he a wizard with the glove though.

@scribbletone:

Porcello... *sigh*

I watched the first round just to see if he was going to fall to the Yanks because of his bonus demands.

2 picks away. :( I hope Brackman comes back strong from TJ.

and scribble dont push it bonderman and miller are good but they are certainly NO aces...the tigers rotation is solid 1-5 but they are nothing to be feared past Verlander

Okay maybe i exaggerated Bonderman he's not an ace, more of a 2-3, and Andrew Miller won't be next year, but the guy is full capable of being that kind of pitcher. Just like Hughes wont be an ace next year, but he's got the stuff to do it

Just bustin ur chops...tigers are good.

So they are offering a tweener/4th outfielder and a no-hit minor league utility man or a potential back-end starter on top of Hughes. Hmm. I'd take the Red Sox's proposal over that in a heartbeat.

Horrible deal I'll quit being a twins fan if this happens.

I'll take a Year of Johan and the 2 picks over this deal then let them pay 30MM a year for him.

why not go for hughes, cabrera and betemit? betemit is only what 25 or 26 and he could play a decent third or even short for us

matter of fact id say okay if the offer was hughes, m. cabrera, betemit and austin jackson

any thought on the above offer?

Paul, call your owner and tell him not to do the deal. It would make both of us happy.

A couple of points:

I really hope the Red Sox fans who are convinced that Hank is overruling Cashman and that our FO is in chaos because Hughes (long believed to be the price for Santana anyway) was put on the table will use the same arguments about Lucchino and the Boston FO if Ellsbury (a known Theo guy) is put on the table. Fair is fair.

Second, some of the Haren points here seem somewhat delusional. If you think Dan Haren is 'almost as good' as Johan Santana, I have to wonder WTF you've been smoking. He's a pitcher. But near Santana's level? To say you're stretching quite a bit there is an understatement. And yes, he is cheaper financially for the next three years, but that will 1) drive the A's' demands up to begin with and 2) get more of the economically challenged but prospect-loaded teams (Dodgers, Angels, D-Backs, etc) involved. You don't think any of those teams are going to be willing & able to top Lester/Crisp? You -will- have to cough up the players the Twins are asking for and you'd be getting a guy who doesn't have close to the level of talent Santana does.

Hughes + crap ... don't trade Santana if this is the best you can get.

Wait until the deadline or take your picks. Make a run for the playoffs this year.

Seriously, Cabrera/Kennedy are easily replaceable parts. Hughes is the only prize in this package.

I find this funny because everyone thinks the Red Sox offer is better. Lester and Bucholtz don't compare to Hughes, that's why the Twins want Ellsbury. The twins either want the stud pitching prospect, Hughes, or the stud CF prospect, Ellsbury. Those are the two main components, until the Sox pony up Ellsbury their not truly in the race. If they do put Ellsbury in the mix, watch out Yankees fan's, because I have a bad (or good if your a Twins fan like me) feeling the steinbrenners are gonna be betting the farm to land Santana. It's not the fact that they dont get Santana, but if they let the BoSox get him their in a lot of trouble the next few years (even with Hughes). Can anyone remember the D'Backs WS run.....

@matsuzakasan

Don't forget to add Slowey to that mix.

@bjsguess:

Kennedy isn't in the package anymore.

You know what really blows? There's a good chance that if Joba hadn't put up an insane 20 IPs in September he would be forced into the deal by Hank. I feel bad for Cashman; he knows losing Hughes will get attached to his legacy yet he's helpless to prevent it.

(And this "picks are as good as that package" logic is stupid. Every single MLB team would give up their next 1st rounder for Hughes and/or a supplemental level pick for Melky.)

Haren isn't on Johan's level and will likely never dominate but he's a much safer bet over 3-6 years than Santana. There is value in that.

What do you mean? Johan still topped Haren peripherals wise in his off year while Haren was only comparable in his best. Add in the fact that Haren played in the much lighter AL West and I'll take Johan over the next several years.

He's likely a #2 but when you factor in cost, age and all that you could probably argue he's just as valuable as Santana.

I really, really hate this.

Haren is very solid, don't get me wrong. But if I have a bottomless pocket like the Yanks or Sox I'm going for Santana first.

Gogo: The other 3 teams in the AL West ranked 4th, 5th and 7th in runs scored. Otherwise, nice point.

When did I say Haren sucks? Don't put words in my mouth. I admitted he's a good pitcher. I only said he's not near Santana's level.

14 pitchers in ML history have managed to pull off multiple Cy Young awards. Santana managed it before the age of 28! How many Cy Young awards has Haren won? Has Haren even been in the top five of the voting? Can we at least get him to that threshold before we say he's 'almost as good?' And he's only a year younger. We're not talking about a 22 year old here.

"Lester and Bucholtz don't compare to Hughes, that's why the Twins want Ellsbury. The twins either want the stud pitching prospect, Hughes, or the stud CF prospect, Ellsbury."

If you think Ellsbury is a better prospect than Buchholz, you haven't seen them play.

Eh...ok so that one was ill-researched but the Indians and Tigers were 6 and 2 respectively.

Cy Young voting. The end all, be all. Right.

Here's a question; why does no one mention that Melky is a year younger than Ellsbury and put up a higher MLB isoP than Ellsbury's in AAA?

@matsuzakasan with a lineup that would score 600 runs. Right now we have NO CFer No 3rd baseman no 2b and no SS that would start on 20 teams in baseball how do we win games then So we add hughes who replaces Santana and a Average Cfer and some crap we already have 3 of in our minors. and Melky has had 1 count them 1 good season in the Majors or Minors, heck Pridie could be as good as Melky, great haul I'd rather shoot my self in the foot and down with one more year of Johan.

it would be crazy 2 prefer Haren over Santana... sure he's keeper but the packages 2 get both would be comparable and Santana isn't much older than Haren... Haren had to have a career year in order to be mentioned in the same sentence as Santana (who by the way had a down year)... it's Santana all the way

One good season? He's f'ing 23, dude. I can't comprehend the reasoning methods that some of you guys must use.

Not Joe Morgan it's not a 1st round pick and a sup for Hughes and melky it's one year of Johan and 2 picks for hughes and melky.

"The Twins want the Red Sox to add either center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury or pitcher Clay Buchholz to the deal, and there are indications that if they do, that offer is what Minnesota will prefer."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3136495


This how it breaks down: IF the Red Sox ADD Ellsbury or Buchholz to the deal they Get him. IF they DONT The Yankees will get him.

Its that SIMPLE.

In the a lot of people are 23 and I said in the Majors or minors that's 6 seasons.

If Melky had a good track record in the minors I'd be all over him but he doesn't he screams fluke season (2006) to me.

Fair point, but do you see the Twins making a big run next year? One season plus two picks can't be more valuable than a top flight pitching prospect, cheap CF (who, again, still compares to Ellsbury at this point statistically) and another prospect.

haren is more than a half run higher

he isnt the pitcher johan is, but he'd be a damn good #2 and would significantly bolster the rotation

I would not offer the same package the sox offered for johan though..maybe lester/lowrie/crisp

And I'm aware that isnt enough, I'm just not sold on the fact the sox NEED to get another pitcher..so why drain the farm system..

I'm sad we're adding Hughes. But, if we add Horne now, I think we are in danger of having one of those lob-sided trades Yankee fans make fun of in other organizations - like Milledge for trash or Kazmir for garbage.

Paul, come on. He had 1,000 MLB PAs by age 22. Do you know how insanely rare that is? Perhaps if he were taking the Ellsbury path he would have racked up some nice minor league numbers but he flew through. You have to consider age and not just flat numbers on this one.

See the problem here with everyone complaining about a Hughes, Cabrera, Horne offer is that you're complaining when you really don't have any alternatives. Santana doesn't really wanna go to Seattle, the LA teams are terribly interested, and Chamberlain, Cano, Buchholz and Ellsbury just aren't moving.

"This how it breaks down: IF the Red Sox ADD Ellsbury or Buchholz to the deal they Get him. IF they DONT The Yankees will get him.
Its that SIMPLE."

Kramerica has it exactly right. The Twins essentially have 4 options:
1. trade him for Hughes, Cabrera and Horne/Gonzalez
2. trade him for Lester, Lowrie, Crisp, Bowden
3. Keep him til the July deadline then see if you can get more then, even though I see zero reason why you would
4. Keep him til he hits free agency, then take the draft picks and let him walk.

I just don't see the Red Sox adding Ellsbury to their offer, I think they see it as this is the offer we're putting out, and if you say no we'll look in other directions like Dan Haren

@matsuzakasan

Look past era Santana has a better K/BB rate K rate BB rate and hit rate and is more likely to continue those era's than haren

Johan is so much better than Haren, all right? Haren is an awesome fall back but I think Beane wants to keep him for the very same reasons you are all defending him. So he really shouldn't even in the discussion right now. For the same reasons you are saying Haren could have as much or better value over Santana, you could make a case for Blanton over Haren.

except you're getting johan santana in exchange

Paul ... being that this thread is mostly Yankee fans, do you find it odd nobody is upset Cabrera hangs in the balance. He will put up unextraordinary offensive numbers, play above average defense, and be a good clubhouse guy until he hits his 30s.

And Melky is pretty much a tweener outfielder or fourth outfielder at this point. He has neither the glove for center field nor the bat for a corner outfield position. Why anyone would take Hughes, Cabrera and Gonzales or Horne over the Red Sox package is beyond me.

Or, Ross, its because we have a massive upside CF two years away which makes Melky an acceptable piece of the deal. Give quality to get quality and Jackson makes this palatable.

NJM if you like ARL you should check out Karim Garcia he was a monster in AAA at 19 he's going to be a huge stud. I do get your point but I don't put much stock in ARL.

rossdfarian - yes I do every baseball fan take find ways to up the value of guys they don't want or need I do it it's our nature. I just got nothing better to do right now :)

And in Garcia's age 22 season he posted a .260 MLB OBP. Cabrera is obviously well past that.

@GoBoSox420:

Your thinking is more rational and closer to mine. The Red Sox don't even -need- Haren, unless they feel the need to one-up a Yankee acquisition of Santana. But that's supposed to be more a Yankee mentality than a Red Sox mentality ... right?

Haren is just good enough in a market that is leaving teams -desperate- for good pitching to command a better haul of prospects than Lester/Crisp/etal. If Haren goes on the block, mid-market teams will fall all over themselves trying to get him. My prediction is that he ends up behind Penny on Torre's staff.

I think the Sox are gonna switch Buchholz for Lester (Which I think would beat the Yankees offer). Then if the Yankees became even stupider and made it Hughes, Cabrera, and Kennedy; I would switch Crisp and Ellsbury. Then after the Yankees got so desperate they'd throw in/replace one of them with Cano or Joba. And if the Yanks didn't go that far and the Sox got the first negotiating window, I'm offering Santana crap, say 4 years 30 million (which he'd obviously decline). Then once the Yankees heard this, they'd throw the farm in for Santana, the Sox keep everybody, and New York already wants to oust their new owner.

The Sox have a legitamte interest in Santana for those who think otherwise. They have decided they will only give up so much and then if the price exceeds it, they will just keep upping the price for the Yankees and do what I just said above.

Personally I'd give up Buchholz over Lester. I'd sell Buchholz high now after the no hitter (People fail to mention it was against the horrible, borderline AAA Oriole's). I think Buchholz is a little better, but Lester is gonna have a good year this year after fully regaining his strength from cancer.

I was looking up some of the Sox top prospects and here are some of their prospets of the year, dating back to 1997: Brian Rose, Dernell Stensen, Steve Lomasney, and Seung Song. Obviously you've never heard of these people, that's why you trade prospects no matter how promising for the proven talent. This is the link for the Sox top prospects page: http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/262814.html

Oooo, Griffey, then you should switch Beckett in and we'd offer Hughes/Joba/Kennedy/Cano/Jeter/Rodriguez/Posada. I think you've got this one completely figured out.

Haha WTF Griffey??!?

"I think the Sox are gonna switch Buchholz for Lester (Which I think would beat the Yankees offer). Then if the Yankees became even stupider and made it Hughes, Cabrera, and Kennedy; I would switch Crisp and Ellsbury. Then after the Yankees got so desperate they'd throw in/replace one of them with Cano or Joba. And if the Yanks didn't go that far and the Sox got the first negotiating window, I'm offering Santana crap, say 4 years 30 million (which he'd obviously decline). Then once the Yankees heard this, they'd throw the farm in for Santana, the Sox keep everybody, and New York already wants to oust their new owner."

Wait, wait. So the Yankees will sell the farm AFTER Johan declines the Red Sox offer?

If the Red Sox win, then low ball Johan, its end-game for the Twins.

Because the Angels are battling for Cabrera an Colletti's fitting Joe Torre for a suit.

The Yankees are the only other team bidding. If that situation plays out, the Yankees offer would at best stay the same.

It'd probably drop to Kennedy, Melky, Horne and they'll say take it or leave it.

It wouldn't matter what the Red Sox tried to offer in the second go around because Johan probably doesn't take kindly to being insulted.

NGGriffey

Has got this right everyone thinks all this prospects will turn out but they will likely turn out to be 50% of what people think their value is Could Hughes be a #1 starter yeah but kennedy could bust and jackson could bust and Tabata could bust then it's a bad deal for us we are taking on almost all of the risk here.

Not Joe, I think you're unestimating how desperate Hank and Hal want to start with a bang and will overpay. Just by including Hughes it tells me they will go much further if necessary. Obviously Cano/Joba was a little far, but I was making a point.

@NGGriffey:

Except if the Red Sox offer Santana garbage and he walks away, they're officially eliminated from trade discussions and the Yankees could go right back to Kennedy/Melky. Further, you'd be PO'ing Smith, and suddenly you've got a GM on a team that's usually very active on the trade market who's going to be wary of dealing with you ever again.

If the bluff works, great for you. Part of me expects them to put Ellsbury on the table for just that reason. But if the bluff is called, you can't just walk away without giving Johan a reasonable offer.

Yeah, Buchholz is pure and is heartbroken by someone who tried to take something from him. Like he he took laptops from kids and that's the only reason the Red Sox have him anyway...what a douchebag!

There are so many people who don't even really care what the deal is, they just want to rip the Yankees regarless.

The same people that scream about how overrated Phil Hughes is, are going to be making fun of the yankees about how much they had to give up after this trade goes down.

@matsuzakasan:

As I see it, most of the hot air's coming from your direction, buddy. If the discussion makes you angry, then by all means don't bother coming here. But your belligerent attitude is making big contributions to the problem.

I hit a grand slam in senior league all-stars so I am certainly exempt from that last comment.

Ya dude I'm sure you're a star athlete that's why you're posting here like the rest of us.

I had a 3.24 era in Rural MN baseball. But pitchers don't have to be athletic or at least that much.

I know you were talking to matsuzakasan though.

Gogog: Someday soon I'll bet you figure out what sarcasm is all about.

(Not that I was lying. It was a blast reminiscent of Randy Bush. Lefties just look better.)

You are making terrible assumptions. If people are willing to dedicate time on following baseball intently there is a pretty damn good chance they have some background in sports.

You still haven't addressed the fact that Buccholz is indeed a buttholez anyway.

I was talking to matsuzakasan when I said that Not Joe...

Gotcha. Wasted Randy Bush reference. F*ck.

Just because you still play doesn't give you any more credibility. I have learned a lot more about analyzing players in a couple of years of browsing the internet than my 10 years of playing.

@ Kosh

I think Smith loves the bluff. And I don't think he would get mad at all. My thinking is that Smith knows the Yankees need Sanatana more, and therefore will be more willing to part with prospects to make a better deal. So if the Sox make a better offer he loves it becasue he expects New York to one up it. I'll be impressed if the Sox improve their offer (Buchholz for Lester) and the Yankees don't come back over the top. And then that's a trade that I would still make if i were the Sox. And it wouldn't tkae them out of the discussions completely, they'd just have to ask for another negotiating window, or ask for an extension which I think Smith will do because it's necessary to complete a deal. And it's in his best intrest to keep both teams involved.

Obviously this is my opinion which means nothing, just like everyone's here. The only opinion is Smiths. In his opinion will swapping Clay for Lester be a better offer? Only he knows.

@matsuzakasan

Well your glee looks a lot like anger, in print form at least. I mean, we're both sports fans; there's no reason we can't be buddies if you're not pissed at me, right?

Again, --Haren is a good pitcher--. I will not dispute that, just as I won't dispute that Melky isn't an all-star or that Alan Horne isn't automatically heading for the Hall of Fame. But to even begin comparing Haren to Santana is treading on cautious ground. Even saying 'almost as good' as a walk-in Hall of Famer is saying an awful lot in the world of sports. I don't even care about the stats. You produced the Haren vs. Santana stat line, not me. I'm going with what the sports writers thought when they submitted their Cy Young ballots the past three years. Haren didn't just 'not win.' He wasn't even given the votes to be in the picture. Strong #2? In the Dodger rotation, I could see it. In the Sox rotation? If Dice-K and Buccholz are as good as they're supposed to be, he's #4.

What's going to be funny is when Matsuzakasan puts two and two together and realizes that Theo Epstein is indeed one of us who "masturbates to stats". That's going to be rough.

@NGGriffey:

Careful there. Forget about the bluff working. Look at the scenario if it doesn't. Smith is told he's getting Buccholz & Ellsbury and he gives the Sox the 72 hour window. Santana comes out of that window insulted by a 100m offer. Suddenly Smith doesn't have Buccholz & Ellsbury any more, he knows he was used by the Sox in an attempt to hurt the Yankee future, and now the Yankees are only offering Kennedy again. You have to take these negotiations more seriously than that. Smith wants the Sox and Yanks to battle, obviously. But he doesn't want to be used by either side. If he knows the Sox are using him, the Sox have an annoyed GM. And annoyed GM's are not good things to collect in this business.

I agree with your strategy to a degree though, and I do expect at least a little pot-stirring. As much as the Sox feel comfortable with. But they won't overdo it.

Matsuzakasan

What level baseball do you play I'm betting I have you beat.

Ya know...if Buchholz wasn't such a douchebag the Red Sox wouldn't have him. That makes him even more of a douchebag to me.

Matsuzakasan,

Here is where some of the problems come in…

“Everyone is missing the point here...Im glad you can all prove Santana is better than Haren...so can many sixth graders with a background in adding and subtracting...but I never said he wasn't better so enough of Dan Haren...and back to Johan which this thread is about....”

Well, you *did* say he was “nearly as good as Johan” when you said:
“Yeah you're right.. Haren sucks...he's nowhere near as good as Santana...except last year but of course your gonna say that was a fluke and he wont do it consistantly
What a douche...These numbers look pretty good to me:”

And to that I say… Talk about calling someone a douche!

You not only point to two statlines showing Santana to be dramatically better (Johan WHIP of 1.07 & BAA of .225 to 1.21 & .247) but you also fail to mention possibly the two more important things in the comparison:

1) It was a *down-year* for Johan vs the *best* Haren has ever shown &
2) Haren pitches in the best pitchers park in baseball!

…That comparison alone is a joke man, think about it. Santana is lightyears ahead; its almost like comparing Bonds to James Loney… Does it mean Loney sucks? Nah, it just means Bonds is drastically better… Trying to force it down someones throat only to change the story latter though ~ well it creates credibility problems…


Oh ~ and for those talking about Haren’s age… He was born 9/17/80 vs Santana on 3/13/79. I count a near perfect 1.5 year separation. That doesn’t even make Haren a safer “age” bet if that stuff is important to you on young pitchers ~ so I don’t get that part of it at all…

BTW, sorry that was late ~ stupid “verify you are not a robot” crap held it up and I didn’t realize it…

"I had a 3.24 era in Rural MN baseball. But pitchers don't have to be athletic or at least that much."

I went 1 for 47 in little league swinging with my eyes closed, but I can still tell Matsuzakasan is a complete toolbox.

A-Rod didn't steal from children.

ESPN's Buster Olney says the Red Sox came up with new ideas in their trade proposal for Johan Santana following their latest round of talks with the Twins on Saturday afternoon.
Olney thinks the Twins would accept a Boston offer that included Clay Buchholz or Jacoby Ellsbury, though the Yankees remain the favorites for now with their offer of Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and a third player. He adds that although the Twins have been talking with the Mariners and Dodgers, it's still expected to come down to the Red Sox and Yankees.

Darkstar, fair point on the smallish age gap between the two but even 1.5 years matters when you're talking about a LT deal for a pitcher.

Clay Bucholtz was supposed to be a Dodger: "When Logan White heard a young Red Sox [team stats] pitcher was throwing a no-hitter Saturday night, he couldn’t help but think what might have been for his team.
“It was bittersweet,” said White, the Los Angeles Dodgers director of scouting. “I’m extremely happy for Clay Buchholz, but I’m not happy for the Dodgers, that’s for sure.”

Instead, Depo forced him to draft another douchebag by the name of Luke Hochevar. Dammit.

@ArodSucksAtLife 3.24 wasn't that good in our conference actually so I wasn't trying to brag I was middle of the pack.

“Darkstar, fair point on the smallish age gap between the two but even 1.5 years matters when you're talking about a LT deal for a pitcher.”

…Ahh, but then we have this:

1.5 Years younger ~ dramatically lesser stats in best year
1.5 Years older ~ dramatically better stats in off year

if we are talking a 5-7 year deal, I’m hoping for the second one no matter what. If we are talking a team that can spend a lot (RedSox/Yankees/Etc) then the choice is a no-brainer…

Haren is a huge, huge risk because his numbers look so much better in Oakland then they will elseware. People bashed Zito all the time for this, yet seem to have their head between their legs when it comes to Danny…

Haren has much, much nicer peripherals than Zito (in large part due to Zito's insane flyball tendencies). Also, Zito has never once put up the 3.0 K/BB numbers that Haren has racked up over the last 3 seasons in Oakland. Not sure if you're a fan of QERA, but Haren slotted in behind Kazmir and Webb, ahead of Lowe and Lackey; very nice company. I'd argue he's a much better bet than Zito to leave Oakland and still maintain big time numbers.

NJM, Not saying Haren isnt better than Zito ~ just pointing out the fact that people did nothing but talk about Oakland accounting into Zito and seem to be blind with it on Haren...

I have to question Haren's long term health- if I recall correctly, he uses that splitter a lot to get strikeouts. Santana's changeup puts a lot of stress on his elbow too, but splitters are worse.

Darkstar: I'd say its because Zito's stuff was tailored to look much better in a large park, much like Chris Young in S.D. Haren is a drastically different pitcher who just happens to pitch in a large park.

Gogo: That's part of my worry about Santana's size and potential injury risk as he ages. He's at peak health now but as he gets older, he'll be at risk for using "too much arm" or whatever term you want to use to compensate for lesser stuff. Guys like Sabathia and Haren will always have that downward plane to fall back on.

Oh, well see the thing about Johan is that he touches 95-96 when he really wants to(settles at more like 91-94) but his change up is so perfect and deceptive that it comes at the cost of him putting a lot of tension on his elbow. Great pitchers become injured because of all the exertion they put on their fast balls, breaking balls and splitters(although splitters are much less often used now) like Pedro Martinez...there is always a risk in signing pitchers long term.

NJM,

But the large warning track and heavy West-Coast air help ya no matter what ~ just some more than others. To expect Haren to not see a huge increase is almost naïve in my mind.

And not saying you don’t expect some problems with his numbers switching over, but people talk like he is amazing and should be amazing everywhere no matter when in actuality he hasn’t shown anything that amazing in Oakland even so anywhere else it could get kind ugly…

I dunno...I think the Zito thing was more the pressure of the limelight and from his contract affected him. Giants park is a pretty good pitching park, switched to NL and the NL West isn't exactly brutal.

Have we ever hit 300 posts here?

Apparently, the negotiations are going on in a chat room. This guy has the scoop:

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/12/01/the-dugout-the-johan-santana-bidding-war/

Hope you can access that if you're not on AOL. That is funny stuff.

Wow, all I have is a changeup is 100 times less stress on an arm than a curve or slider. Yes he does have 2 changeups where he does put a little slide and screw to them, but this is not even comparable to a hard snapping curve/slider.

Great work ethic, fundamentals are good, and doesn't throw a lot of sliders/curves making him way more likely to stay healthy than just about any other starter in bigs...oh yeah and he's the best in the game over the past 3 years. Thats why he deserves a long term contract, and will get a very wealthy one at that. (Yankee fans cross your fingers I didn't jinx him)

I love the dugout...

Err, just realized that I said “large warning track and heavy West-Coast air help ya no matter what” up there but was thinking and trying to say “foul ground territory and heavy West-Coast air”. Its what I get for trying to post when busy :)

I wonder if the Dodgers or Mariners could afford to give him an extension. Of course, there is always more money in New York and Boston no matter which way you slice it, what with endorsements, so they would probably have to offer a better extension than the Yankees or Red Sox for him to go there. If they wanted to, the Mariners or Dodgers could better the Yankees or Red Sox talent wise in a trade, especially the Dodgers.

@Kosh:

Hilarious :D

Hey a couple of maybe updates:

RED SOX:

May have included Buchholz in their offer.

Source: http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

I can't speak for the credibility of that, but check the right sidebar where they have a "Johan Santana trade update" section.

YANKEES:

Fans have started the "Save Phil Hughes Petition"

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/3/people-against-trading-phil-hughes

http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

Popular Hot Stove site, yet I don't understand why. Anyone with some time read over some of his/her posts. For one, they're a terrible writer (I'm not good either, but I'm just a blogger), 2 I really have no idea where he comes up with some of this. Just recently he stated the Twins would be interested in trading for Kei Igawa because they're in need of pitching? We just traded an excellent pitching prospect for position players and looking to trade the best pitcher in baseball, we'll get another pitcher back I know, but still. Anyone who knows anything about the Twins knows we have a surplus of pitching comeing up (maybe not all MLB ready but the Twins would rather give them a chance than 4mm chance in Igawa).

Then he makes up some package of Rickie Weeks and Carlos Villanueva for Joe Nathan. The site is terrible, but I go there every once in awhile just to see how bad it is.

Heyman update:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/01/santana.talks/index.html

"Minnesota has requested the Yankees surrender either pitcher Alan Horne or outfielder Austin Jackson as the third player, but the Yankees have thus far refused to include either in the deal for the two-time Cy Young winner. Most baseball insiders still see the Yankees as the favorite to land Santana with their inclusion of Hughes, but if the sides can't agree on the third prospect, the Yankees may consider setting a deadline for Minnesota to accept their proposal."

Wow. We put Hughes on the table, and now we're treating Horne/Jackson as a potential deal-breaker? That's iffy.

Abraham too:

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/

"In a new twist, the wire service says the offer could have an expiration date of a few days as the Yankees are prepared to go after Danny Haren. Now that most everybody believes the Red Sox aren’t serious, the Yankees are putting some pressure on the Twins to make this deal before it gets any more complicated."

We haven't seen much about the new Red Sox offers, but he has a mind that they're not good enough.

How often is Brewcrew12333 going to spam this site? Isn't there anyway to terminate their account or ban their IP address?

So let me get this straight:

If what Heyman is saying is true, the Yankees - who are willing to deal their best pitching prospect in Hughes AND dish out 20+ million a year for Johan - are holding up this deal for a couple of guys (Horne and Jackson) who may or may not be ready by 2009?

This can't be true, can it? Holding up a deal for the best pitcher in baseball over a couple of "maybes"?

If this is true, the Yankees are dumber than I thought.

Not even both. Just one or the other.

Push come to shove, we have to do it. The Twins know that. Cashman is just trying to hold onto whatever he can, but I have to think it's futile. Twins probably never get a deadline and the 3-man seals the deal by Monday.

@Kosh

I agree 100%. Do you know anything about Jackson and Horne? I know that Jackson is an OF and Horne is a pitcher, but that's about all.

tolo, by offering Hughes, the Yankees felt they made a humongous concession. Alan Horne and Austin Jackson are no slouches: Horne was the Eastern League pitcher of the year and could be ready this year. Jackson is also an organizational favorite: the Yankees had scouted him since he was 12 years old, and he recently broke out in a big way in 2007. And since the Yankees are giving up Melky, they need a centerfielder in the pipeline. These guys aren't Tyler Clippard or Brett Gardner.

Thanks for the info, Andrew.

That said, do you honestly think this deal is going to get held up because of a couple of AA players? I don't.

Personally I think the Yankees should hold onto Austin Jackson, if they're giving up Melky they need someone who can man center long term. But if this deal doesn't get done simply because the Yankees refuse to give up Alan Horne, they are making a mistake. They would still have good young pitchers in Joba Chamberlain, Ian Kennedy, Andrew Brackman, Humerto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan, Ross Ohlendorf and Dellin Betances. If the difference between getting Santana and not getting Santana is Horne then I say you give him up

I noticed you were a good and intilligent poster and i was wondering if you would like to join a great sports forum? http://s15.invisionfree.com/Overtime_Sports/ We have 107 members in a week but we really need more members to keep the forum active. Its very active so far. We have a Baseball Mogul 2008 league, an MLB trade center game, and a fastbreak basketball league. Thanks for your time, and hopefully, I will see you there!

Thanks for the link, Paul.

That said, this is posturing by the Twins 100%. What else are they going to say? That they can't wait to get rid of Johan? No one with any sense is buying this one.

Yeah i agree I can't see any way in which he doesn't get traded at this point. I mean even if they do trade Santana I still they could contend next year provided that the Indians and Tigers don't play out of their minds and they get some good breaks. It just doesn't seem logical to me to let him walk, I mean would the Twins fan base rather get Phil Hughes in return for him or just let him leave as a free agent?

Joe Nathan too?

You sure the Sox would give up Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester and Pedroia?

Only way Nathan gets involved would be something like:

BOS gets Santana and Nathan

MIN gets Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie, Bowden, and Hansen/Delcarmen.

Would that work?

Santana isn't worth all the Red Sox might offer. They've got enough pitching without him....must they be any more dominant? At this point, I think it's about Theo just not letting the Yankees get him.

I'm going to bed. I hope when I wake up Ellsbury is checking out apartments in the greater Minneapolis area.

theo should get a head start and call the A's tomorrow and get into talk about what it would take to get haren, so it makes the yankee "deadline" obsolete.

the yankees have alot of balls talking about posting a deadline after they pulled their pants down and bent over to the twins, like this kind of trade isnt going to take more then a week if it is the primary focus, which of course it is.

w/e, my point is the red sox should focus on the next guy at this point and admit defeat with santana, there are other fish to be had

Come on, stop your bluffing! Hanky Wanky, give up your horne. Oops.. twins just changed their mind. Where's Kennedy?

tolo416, yes, that would work out fairly, but call me crazy, i still wouldnt want it. Red Sox weakness is not in the pitching area, i dont really want to see Ellsbury go

It's funny to hear the Yankees may turn their attention to Haren if the Twins don't agree their wishes.

How do they think Billy Beane is going to ask for in return? Well, I'll tell them:

Hughes, Cabrera, and Horne, most likely.

Why would he take anything less, especially when teams like the Mets, Dodgers, and Red Sox will be in on him as well?

if the yankees gave up hughes without any argument, there best prospect, then they will give up that pitcher or that shortstop by the time we all wake up tomorrow morning

another good point tolo316, thats probably why Epstein, doesnt want to up the anty so much, so it looks like that is the most we will give for any A+ starter. Cashman must want to kill hank for going over him, now that will be the standard deal for haren, bedard, anyone...silly hank, tricks are for kids

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/sports/baseball/02yankees.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

If the Twins really do value Ellsbury over Hughes, Boston is absolutely, completely retarded for not offering him.

I'm going to bed as well.

Watch Omar put Reyes on the block tomorrow morning. Then this will -really- get crazy.

The recent Neal story from the Star Tribune just concurs what Twins fans have known all along; the other teams are going to have to pony-up or the Twins will feel just fine going into 2008 with Santana in their rotation.

Are quibbling over prospects (who may or MAY NOT) pan out really worth not getting the best pitcher in the planet? If Santana goes into 2008 with the Twins, I'd be upset if I were a Yank/Bsox/Met/Dodgers fan.

Andrew, the armchair gm, never misses an opportunity to use his superior intellect to bash boston


I love it

@Andrew,
I doubt the Twins value Jacoby over Hughes, more likely they value him over Cabrera and see Lester/Bucholz(sp?) and Hughes as comparable.

Of course the RS are not serious, because only the Yankees are allowed to want Santana. I am so sick of this BS. People should be fired over this.

Same thing with Matsuzaka, The Sox didn't ever want him, they just blocked the Yankees. Its so obvious.

I'm sorry, Yankees won't include Horne, but the RS are not serious for excluding Ellsbury?

Yankees putting a deadline on their offer would be the worst bluff in history.

Will be interesting to see what the RS offered today, I think they would have got past their initial offer.

Yo stevo, answer me one question: why do the yanks have a all-star line-up? Yes, because they can as any yank fan can tell you. There's your answer why the sox might want santana.

Like any sane, non-desperate GM, Theo will stop when the price is not right. Theo probably bought a first base glove and broke it in when lowell's agent told him about the NY offer and demanded a fourth year.

Twins have plenty of pitching, not just at the major league level, but in AAA, and even AA, and good pitching too.

I can easily see how they would value Ellsbury above Hughes, its not saying he is a better player, but he is a need more so than Hughes is.

Yeah i agree with bosox, or at least i think the sox shouldn't offer Ellsbury. Its not like the Red Sox have a huge need for an ace, their rotation could pretty much be set with Beckett, Matsuzaka, Schilling, Wakefield and Lester/Buchholz, with one of the kids taking Schilling's spot next season. Ellsbury should end up becoming one of the best leadoff hitters in baseball, and they're better off holding onto him and going to the A's and seeing if their offer would work with Haren. Otherwise just enjoy another year with the same lineup that won it all last season

This whole trade scenario is a perfect example of why baseball needs a salary cap.

the red sox offer wont change, that is in stone

Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Bowden

Epstein wont cave in like the Yankees did. and you cant be mad at the Red Sox for upping the ante alittle more, besides, we didnt force the Yanks to throw in Hughes, they did that themselves. there deal wasnt bad the first time they laid it out, they were just cowardly to not stand their ground

It's funny. When the Yankees signed A-Rod, myself and several others pointed out the damage that had been done. Cashman came out on numerous occasions and said that if A-Rod opted out the Yankees would not sign him. Low and behold A-Rod opts out and the Yankees caved.

This is no different. I would call the Yankees bluff on this. They will cave. They have no negotiating credibility. The Twins should take them for everything they have and use the Sox and anyone else to keep upping the ante.

The Yanks want Santana. They don't want Haren (who could be a great pitcher or may just be good). Like A-Rod, the Yanks only want the best.

Just to play devils advocate about the BoSox rotation.

Fans see Beckett as a Cy Young winner who was robbed. I see a pitcher one year removed from an ERA north of 5.

Fans see Dice-K taking another step forward and trashing the league with his 9 pitches. I see another Japanese pitcher who gets figured out and the ERA goes up.

Fans see post-season hero Schilling. I see a pitcher who is lucky to give you 150 innings of under 4.00 ERA.

Fans see no-hitter Buchholz. I see yet another top prospect who goes through a normal learning curve. Expect an ERA north of 4.5. (Same goes for Lester).

Fans see Wakefield as a model of consistency. I see a guy who is a 41 year old who's gas tank has finally reached empty.

My point isn't that the Sox are in trouble. Personally, I think they are in very good shape. I only bring this up because there are some serious question marks with just about every pitcher. Adding a player like Johan would make a dramatic improvement to the pitching staff.

Actually, the Yankees stated that they would not pursue in re-signing him. The fact of the matter is that A-Rod came back to them. They never fell back on their word.

Captain- they still gave him a 10 year 300 million dollar deal when it wasn't sure there was a offer that topped 200 million.

You should always trade pitching prospects for proven pitching, especially if it's for one of the best three pitchers in the game.

Pick up a prospects book of any kind from 5-10 years ago and just look at the names. You will recognized the batters, but you won't recognize at least half of the pitchers. Pitching prospects are so flaky and that's part of the reason the Twins want two for Santana and the Marlins want two for Cabrera... and the some offense to boot.

Considering A-Rod's agent wanted negotiations to begin at $350 million before opting out and that A-Rod is arguably one of the biggest stars (definitely the biggest presently) in the history of baseball, I'd say it's a pretty good deal.

The Cardinals traded Danny Haren for Mark Mulder. That one turned out great.

The Yankee deadline is laughable. Like they would really drop out and practically hand Santana to the Red Sox. Good luck convincing Beane that Melky is any good.

I think there is a chance the Red Sox will cave and offer Ellsbury, though it may mean tweaking other aspects of the deal. So far as the Yankees, I'm not sure what's going on. If they really are holding up the deal over a 20 year old who has played well for 2 months over his 3 year career, and that being at the A-ball level, then they are taking a huge risk. Is one young outfielder with a 20% chance of being even a regular MLB player worth Santana going to the Red Sox?

Captain, it's Borass' job to start with 350 mil. I am not sure you can call it a good deal.

The fact is cashman tried to play hardball, but hank went behind him and call on his mistress aka mr. buffett to tell afraud to "come back, forrest. come back." When afraud got no love from the market, he realized Hank and him were made for each other after watching Will Smith on 6 degrees of separation.

Sup, 04Forever. I lack an attachment to Ellsbury and Buchholz. Example: Lester was our Buccholz is 18 mos ago and look how most of us rate him now. Buch is better than Lester, but by how much?

For starters, Theo should up the ante to Buchholz/Crisp/Lowrie/whatever.

A No-no is great and all. But if sox get santana, the rotation 1-3 will be the league tops for at least 3 year if healthy. Keep lester&warm body for #4-5 when schill and wake are off the books. Meanwhile, Theo would (hopefully) draft some pitchers and develop them in 3 years' time.

Keep Ellsbury because he is young, cheap and can hit leadoff (not because of what I saw in the playoffs). Theo would only deal him and Buchholz (keeping lester and crisp) if he really wants Santana as badly as the Yanks.

Hey. If changing Lester to Buchholz won't do it for the Twins, at least Hanky will lose his shirt and then some when he gets santana.

If we get santana, he will either overpay for Haren or keep his kids and pray hard that they do well in the majors. Well... that's before he was bludgeoned to death by his local fans.

"My point isn't that the Sox are in trouble. Personally, I think they are in very good shape. I only bring this up because there are some serious question marks with just about every pitcher. Adding a player like Johan would make a dramatic improvement to the pitching staff."

I wasn't saying that the Sox were stacked, I'm just saying that is making that upgrade in an already pretty good staff worth a guy like Jacoby Ellsbury? It's a pretty decent question, and I'd be shocked if the Red Sox thought it was worth it

well so far the yankees haven't fared to well with top pitchers they acquire in trades. A list that includes Randy Johnson (one decent season, one high ERA season, and two disappointing playoff years) Javier Vazguez who had one fairly decent year with them before they shipped him. Then theres my personal favorite kevin Brown who really just plain out sucked for them although as a red sox fan he was my favorite acquisition for them :-) Even if you look at Roger Clemens he wasnt that great with them.yes he won 20 games for them one year but his win totals werent great, when you look at it stat wise he only had two years with them with a win total of over 15 and his ERA was always in the high 3's to well into the 4's..david wells (who was the main peice in the deal for clemens) went on to have good years, , it is clearly shown that wells was better then clemens as a yankee (looking at his two stints) even with clemens 20 win season. What i find great is that clemens then went on to have amazing years in Houston, then come back to the yankees and suck. In the end yes Santana is different then any of the other names stated here...at the same time so were the above pitchers at the time. so may history repeat itself if they get santana

Captain yes signing a guy to a 300 MM deal that wasn't offered 220 Million is a great deal. It is really the Yankees could have had him for 230 250 or what ever they gave him 70-50 million more than anyone else was offering. It doesn't matter what he wanted because no one was going to give it to him I can say hey boss I want 300,000 a year he says I was only paying you 50,000 right now I say well someone offered me 70,000 he says Ok I'll give you 250,000. it doesn't make any sense and not just because I wrote it.

You should make a new post for Santana next time. This thread is too long

"Will be interesting to see what the RS offered today, I think they would have got past their initial offer."

I think it's more likely that Theo would try and wrangle a third team into the mix than up his original offer.

OK, here's my question, how good is Ellsbury. Honestly I believe he's good, but I dont see anything too special about him. Even if he hits .300 he has little power, on the counter he plays great Defense. I'm just curious if this guy is really that great, he was good in the minors, but nothing incredible.

I want Ellsbury, but is he really that good? It may be just me, but I think Hughes has some serious potential, I'm liking the yanks trade more and more everyday. Melky isn't great, but if D.Young develops some pop and we get a 3b out of a Nathan trade, the Twins suddenly dont look like such an offensive dud! I dont know if anyone's watching, but Casilla's developing nicely with his D and getting good AB's in winter leauge.

Does anybody honestly think, that now that the Yankees have offered hughes, they can get off on Bill Smith holding out because of Horne or Jackson? If Horne or Jackson is the guy to get it done, and that is what is really holding up this deal, that is pretty crazy I think.

"It doesn't matter what he wanted because no one was going to give it to him I can say hey boss I want 300,000 a year he says I was only paying you 50,000 right now I say well someone offered me 70,000 he says Ok I'll give you 250,000"

Thats so funny. Cause its true. Lol. I wont really criticize the deal, cuz whatever, but they did say that they wanted no part of him if he opted out and then give him the biggest contract in the history of baseball. No matter how you try to spin it.

I'm a Sox fan and the main reason we love Jacoby is is speed. We've been notorious for being in the bottom of the league in stolen bases. The guy runs like a cheetah. Any ball to to the left side of the infield could be a hit, just like Ichiro. Plus he has shown he's clutch and can play in the big games. Obviously this is a small sample size, but many young players had great post-seasons that turned out to be stars: Jeter, Rivera, K-Rod, Beckett (in FL), Renteria (on first FL team), Andrew Jones, etc. If a team has enough confidence in those young guys to start/play them in the playoffs/world series, then that should tell you something. Most of those guys had a whole season under their belt, but you get my point.

I already said this before, the Sox should switch Buchholz and Lester and make it their final offer, keep Jacoby.

Gange-Nathan-Papelbon??

1) What did Gagne do last year to inspire the Sox to keep him on board as a set up man?

2) What is Okajima, chopped liver?? He did nothing but make a serious impact in the regular season and postseason. He was the 1st half MVP of the team really. No reason for the Sox to throw him in middle relief in favor of Gagne

3) Personally as a Red Sox fan, I dont really see the need for Nathan. Now hear me out... the Sox already have an all star closer of their own. Nathan is one of the best young closers out there, I would rather much like, for his sake, to be sent to a team where the closer role could be his for the forseeable future

Now if that 2nd player would be set up man Pat Neshek, ok now we're talking

pedroia2007, I agree that Nathan would be overkill for the sox. I wouldn't mind seeing them get Guerrier.

NGGriffey: I like Ellsbury's speed, but that's not why I really want them to keep him; I want them to keep him because he's projected to hit .320 next year, with 40 doubles, 40 SB and roughly a .380 OBP as a ROOKIE. He's what the Sox have been looking for for years: a solid OBP guy who's got speed as a bonus.

Meta: I never said that speed is the only thing that makes him a good player. I said Boston fans are mesmerized by his speed because I can't remember the last time we had someone close to as fast as him. Dave Roberts? Nope. You maybe have to go back to Ricky hendersons tenure with the Sox and by then he had lost a step or 2.

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