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Mets May Have Top Santana Offer; Yanks Backing Off?

UPDATE, 1-10-08 at 11:29am: Christensen says Mets owner Fred Wilpon gave Omar Minaya the green light to try to acquire Santana, meaning he's amenable to a contract extension exceeding $100MM.

UPDATE, 1-10-08 at 9:38am: Peter Botte of the New York Daily News has a new quote from Hank: he's "leaning away from" from the Yankees doing a Santana deal.

FROM 1-09-08 at 10:54pm:

Joe Christensen of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune suggests the Mets might be the best fit for Johan Santana.  He says they're offering four players, three of them pitchers: Deolis Guerra, Carlos Gomez, Kevin Mulvey, and Phil Humber.  It's a strong package. 

Christensen says the Twins would accept if the Mets added Fernando Martinez to the package (not sure if Martinez would replace Gomez, or it would just be five players instead of four).

Something's got to give here in the next few weeks - how long can the Santana saga hold up the free agent pitching market?


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I'm really torn. Part of me realizes that adding santana could give the Mets the best rotation in the NL, and one of the best in baseball. They would definitely redeem themselves for last season.

On the other hand, F-Mart is is an elite prospect. He's up there with Hughes and Ellsbury (so says Keith Law). Adding Gomez, Mulvey, Guerra, and Humber is a ton. That destroys the Skanks and Sox offers.

I say you hold firm. Gomez, Mulvey, Guerra, and Pelfrey. The Sox and Skanks haven't stepped up their offers, so there's no reason for us to. Plus, I really don't think Minnesota wants to deal him to a league rival. They want him in the NL.

Please do it. I'm tired of hearing Santana's name this winter and I'd love to have him out of the AL Central (Tigers fan here).

I don't get how that is a stronger package than the Ellsbury offer, the Lester offer or the Hughes offer.

It just isn't.

While F-Mart might not be as great of a spect as Ellsbury or Hughes, I think the other guys (Guerra, Gomez, Humber, Mulvey) are better than what the Sox and Skanks are adding to their studs.

Man, I can't see Omar giving up all five of those guys. I know Omar's instincts are to feel the same way, but he knows he has to win now, so I wouldn't be completely surprised if he caved.

But I'd guess F-Mart has to replace one of Gomez, Guerra, or Mulvey. If that's the case, no matter how much I hate to see Martinez go, I think the deal gets done pretty quick. I fully believe Omar's job is on the line. He needs a strong 2008 showing. And adding Santana could overshadow "the Collapse" come April.

The Twins would trade him within the division if they got the players they wanted in return. That said, I can't help but feel as though the Twins are using the Mets as a means to get the Yankees to up their offer. Being across town from the Mets, the Yankees would take a hit if the Mets snagged him. With both the Yankees and Red Sox holding firm on their offers, the Twins needed another team in the mix to unblock the other two. Pretty crafty on their part.

i hope the twins take this deal over the sox deal now, we get to save the prospects, the money, santana doesnt wear pinstripes, and he leaves the american league, thats an all around win. besides, im sure thats what the twins hoped for, to trade him to a team that they would never have to face him again

What's interesting is that the Twins are actually pretty deep in young OF prospects, specifically CF. They have all of these for either ML or very possibly regular OF prospects right now: Cuddyer/Young/Kubel/Pridie/Martin/Revere/Benson/Parmalee. I didn't include Span because I figure him to be a 4th OF at best.

I do think, however, that the Mets and the Sox are the clear leaders in this. Their packages are simply better than the Yanks. Hughes is great, but Melky is basically a 4th OF, nothing more.

It could be that Martinez goes in instead of Humber. The Twins don't really need TWO pitchers back for Johan. Remember, they still have Nathan to deal. They can easily fill a rotation with ONE guy back for Johan. Cisco/pitcher from Johan deal/Baker/Slowey/Perkins/Boof/Blackburn

Lastly, any more talk of a Nathan/Cubs deal? Vitters might be a real good fit there. It doesn't seem he'll ever get a shot with the Cubs with Aramis and his contract. And the corner OF positions are full with Soriano/Fukodome. And the Twins still need a future 3b. Vitters could be ready at some point in 2009.

So ya, the Mets deal and a Cubs/Nathan deal for Vitters/something else would REALLY stack the Twins by 2009 for a World Series run.

ouch, i dont think calling melky a 4th outfielder is correct, im a sox fan and i can admit that

Maybe not a 4th outfielder, but not a main chip in a deal for the best pitcher in baseball. Skank fans love blowing their load on him, but the fact is he can't hit for his life. Defense will only get you so far...

jerseymetfan, the best pitching in baseball would come up from the NL west period, maybe if Martinez and Hernandez would 5 yrs younger and Perez could put the ball in the plate more often I would agree, but c´monn don´t make me laugh

And in the last post I ever expected to see a Cubs related comment in, one appears.


Who can top that?

Do Mets fans have confidence that Pedro can return to at least a #2-#3 starter? Perez and Maine both have their warts. Thats not a lock for the best rotation in the NL.

Tim your kidding me about Mets "Best Offer" right?

Uhm.. quantity does not equal quality people. Not even close to Sox and Yanks packages

It gives you the best starter in the NL (especially at Shea), but not the best rotation. Throwing in Gomez AND Martinez is too much. One or the other and make the deal.

The Cubs are going to be holding on to Vitters...he played 3rd in high school...that doesn't mean he is strictly a 3rd basemen...

And yes, how did the Cubs come up in this one? They don't need Nathan, they have 3 guys battling for the closers job already, and all three would do really well.

If I'm the twins, I still take a package that involves an elite SP like Hughes first and foremost.

Pedro was incredible when he came back. Granted it was only 28 innings (5 starts), but it was very promising:

28 IP
1.43 WHIP
10.29 K/9
2.57 ERA

The WHIP doesn't look so hot, but I'm confident that Pedro will be just fine.

Yeah, Maine and Ollie have their rough patches, but each showed flashes of brilliance last year.

I never said it was a lock, but adding Johan certainly adds the Mets to any discussion about top rotations.

i still like hughes the most in terms of overall talent of the players involved, but i get the notion that the yankees don't want to make this deal or else it would've already been done. i mean, how do you not accept johan for phil hughes/melky/marquez/4th prospect? you just don't turn that down if you really want him.

my gut is the yankees intelligent leaders (cashman/hal stein) don't want his salary and contract length, and the red sox aren't offering enough in terms of an overall package. he might be right, the mets might have the best offer.

I think this is comparable to the Sox/Yanks packages and makes it even more difficult to make a decision. Substituting Martinez for one of the pitchers would definitely put the Mets over the top. Gomez is in this deal to compete with Pridie for the 2008 job, so he wouldn't be replaced.

i would take the padres top three over your projected staff of the mets . the padres' offense couldn't touch the mets , but of all the pitching staffs in the NL , i would prefer the padres , and diamondbacks with santana or not pitching for the mets .

1st, on Vitters, even if he doesn't play 3b, then where does he fit for the Cubs in the next few years? 1b-Lee, 3b-Aramis, LF-Soriano, RF-Fukodome. He doesn't have a spot. He just doesn't. He's make more sense for them to deal than Pie/Marmol if they really are interested in Nathan.

As for Melky, sorry, I know this will anger the Yankees' fans, but he is a 4th OF in my mind. As you mention, he can't hit really. Yes, he's 22, but nothing in his minor or major league track record suggests he can hit at all. And his defense is vastly overrated. Yankees fans just went nuts for him because he replaced Damon's terrible defense in CF. He was still a below average CF defensively. In fact, according to the Fielding Bible, if you believe such things (and I do) he was the 2nd WORST defensive CF in baseball last year! And the Twins' CF requires range because the range of both Cuddyer and Delmon Young is weak. So we need someone to make up for that.

Sorry, but as a Twins fan, I'd rather have Jason Pridie starting in CF this year than Melky Cabrera. I really would.

I really don't see how this or the Yankees package is better than the RS package

Using a BP system, Ellsbury 5 star, Masterson, Lowrie 4 star, Crisp GC defense..

What is in the Mets package that is clearly ahead of what the Twins already have in their system, or could buy for a few million?

following up, Yankees have a 5star pitcher, Melky, and then are offering a guy who couldn't make it as a 2star prospect, and a 'other' player, as in someone not good enough to replace Jeff Marquez? as a named inclusion.

Hughes would have to be a 10star prospect to make that offer even to the RS.

i dont know if the mets have a better package....but it clear they dont want johan in the AL if they wanted to send him to yanks or sox they would have done it allready

dont give me this bull about waiting and making the other team give more up. how long we have been hearing these names out there . nothing has changed that means they dont wanna see him bite the in the ASS when the wanna be contenders in a yr or 2 ....

Many of you need to play a couple hands of poker. Bill Smith is not at all concerned with how annoyed you are about hearing about Santana in the media (Oh, what a pity! Poor baseball fans). Either one of these teams give (including the Angels I think) or the Twins wait until the deadline and the long term "contract" is no longer a prohibitive feature (and don't spell the bull that Johan would rather sit on a losing squad then go to a winner at the deadline).

I think the Mets would be foolish not to give up an 18 year old to cinch the deal. For as much as it's been ballyhooed the Redsox deal isn't very good. Ellsbury and Lowrie (or Lester) are far from sure bets, and even if they reach their potential it isn't as high as Hughes or Fmart or Gomez or maybe even Guerra.

The fact that the Mets have "emerged" tells that Bill Smith is doing something right. I honestly think the Twins will get the best deal in July--the contract extension is being used as a limiting factor (which is ridiculous) at this point, in July, it won't be an issue, Sanatana would be one of the best two-month rentals ever on the market.

Pedro gets nothing anymore in terms of benefit of the doubt. That's like pencilling Rich Harden into your rotation.

I don't think you can expect to get more for Santana as a two month rental. I don't see many two month rentals traded for 4 players. Plus, isn't Santana threatening to use his no-trade option for some of these teams, or is that incorrect?

As a White sox fan I would like to say that chicago will be throwing a mardi gras party the second he gets traded out of our division. It would be even better if he was traded to the NL. The yankees will never get him with there cheep, lowball offer. They have billions and are being stubborn about there prospects, well enjoy second place yankee fans.

Pedro gets nothing anymore in terms of benefit of the doubt. That's like pencilling Rich Harden into your rotation.

I don't think you can expect to get more for Santana as a two month rental. I don't see many two month rentals traded for 4 players. Plus, isn't Santana threatening to use his no-trade option for some of these teams, or is that incorrect?

Posted by: DentalPlan | January 10, 2008 at 02:07 AM

A bit harsh no? It was the first significant injury he's had in a good 5 years before then and he proved he was healthy in September last year and has since had another 3 months of rest and rehab. I see no reason why he can't give the Mets a very good line. I'm thinking 13-15 wins, 180 IP, 180 K, 3.50 ERA

the twins better do something. i mean seriously,why dont teams just wait until next year and sign him as a free agent? santana is the one with the leverage,not the twins. if the twins dont trade him they are in deep trouble. a draft pick doesnt sound as good as any of these offers. not to mention santana has to agree to an extension in order to accept the trade. the twins should be worried about who is going to offer santana the best contract,not who they might get for him. what if they agree to a trade and then santana cant get his contract? the twins will be the ones scrambling,not the other teams. the yanks are saying that they will only go fuve years. big pr problems in minnesota and santana has all the power.

ok now they are just pushing this too far. to call this even a remotely close offer is a bold statement. The only reason the twins would even begin to look at this offer as a serious one is to ship santana off to the NL so they dont have to face him. Mets aint gettin him. sox n yanks wont allow it

Whatever, just pull the freaking trigger already and let's end this crap.

"the fact is he can't hit for his life. Defense will only get you so far..."

This makes Cabrera sound a lot like Coco Crisp at about 1/10 the price.

"Mets aint gettin him. sox n yanks wont allow it"

Why the hell not? I think the Sox and Yanks would love to see Santana go to the NL. Both are in this more to block the other than to actually get Santana for what he will cost. The Yanks will take a little bit of a hit on the back pages of the tabloids for a few days if the Mets land Santana, but that won't last and they'll still draw their 4 million.

It's not really about who's package is better anymore really. there's so many ways to slice and cut a package and it differs from every team's perspective anyway.

Haha.....Mets fans kill me.

No chance Pedro pitches 100 innings. None.

Charley Walters wrote this in his column for the St. Paul Pioneer Press:

As of Wednesday, plans were still for pitcher Johan Santana to be in Fort Myers, Fla., on Feb. 18, reporting with the Twins for the start of spring training, Twins general manager Billy Smith said.

"He's our Opening Day starter (against the Los Angeles Angels), and I like our chances to win," Smith said.

Smith wouldn't speculate on the chances of Santana being traded before then, but it's clear that the Boston Red Sox, New York Yankees and New York Mets still hope to make a deal for the two-time Cy Young Award winner who can become a free agent after this season.

"I can't predict the future," Smith said.

Santana, meanwhile, doesn't seem overly eager to learn where he'll be pitching this year. He hasn't called Smith to inquire about his status.

In a way, I hope it's true. I'd love to start the season with Santana.

I'll do the deal if F-Mart replaces Gomez and Pelfrey replaces Mulvey, heck I'll toss in Heilman so ....
Guerra, F-Mart, Heilman, Humbar Pelfrey for Santana

Yeah, I heard Hank say that this morning that he's leaning away from the deal.

Then, he took a bite of his grapefruit and said "well,I don't know....ummm...maybe we'll do something".

Then he farted and said "Is that Bedard kid still available?....Nah, I like Santana better....where's Cash at? Tell him to call those guys in Minny again....uh oh...I have to take a dump" and raced to the men's room.

This is all so technical.

Lets go over a few names here:

1. pulsipher
2. isringhausen
3. wilson
4. alex escobar
5. mike pelfrey
6. ochoa

w/exception of pelfrey bc well he's still young we have a history of prospects busting..its JOHAN SANTANA - pull the trigger.

Haha, the Yanks out. As I recall they were "out" on the A-Rod sweepstakes too...

Let us not forget about...

David West
Lastings Milledge
Billy Traber
Pat Strange


Milledge?? Really??

We're writing off the 22 year old as a busted prospect?

Some people don't deserve to speak... or type in this case.

Also, @brewtown

"No chance Pedro pitches 100 innings. None."

He pitched 28 good innings after coming back (plus another 18 in the minors). 46 innings pitched last year with no discomfort and no missed starts. How exactly is 100 innings out of the question? Please educate yourself before giving your (baseless) opinion.

Haha... Brewer fans kill me.

thank you jersey you said it all for me !!!! i bet the mets will have a better record than the crappy brewers ....are u serious and dont even say the suewers are better than the mets neither the mets own them tooo they wone 33 out their last 50 against them thats including the brewers winning season series last yr......

as a red sox fan, im pretty sure that if pedros arm hasnt fallen off yet then it most likely wont, unless somehow he manages to re-injure it. im sure its going to cut down alittle on his career, especially in the numbers area, but hes already done quite enough.

boy i hope the mets come up with the money to pick this guy up, red sox & mets world series would put a smile on my face. i know we have to play the season first, but i can dream...

I'm not picky, but if I had a choice, I'd take the Skanks. It would be soooo much sweeter to beat them than the Sox.

Not to mention that the Sox are a better team than the Skanks anyway...

Wish the Twins would hurry up and take one of the AL East teams offers...I have no desire to see Santana pitching in the NL.

I wouldn't be shocked at all to see the Yankees back off because if he goes to the Mets, they don't have to deal with Santana in their division (with Boston) for the next 6 years, or so.

As for the supposed offer that the Mets have on the table: looks like a pretty solid deal for the Twins, especially if they can get Fernando Martinez (which I would expect to be instead of, rather than in addition to, Carlos Gomez). Also, if Santana is dealt, I would expect Joe Nathan to follow soon.. Trading Santana would be the ultimate "white flag" for this year, in my opinion, so there isn't much sense in keeping Nathan around unless you are able to sign him to an extension.. especially when you got a guy like Neshek who looks like he could slip easily into the closer role.

The Mets would be giving up a lot of talent... but could you imagine Johan Santana in the NL East?!

Please EVERYONE go back to the last santana post full of comments by me! This is EXACTLY word for word what I said would happen. There is no reason anyone should be surprised by this. The yankees as someone referenced earlier are playing a game of poker. they are trying to get everyone else to raise the stakes. I'd be surprised to see Santana go to the mets even though the twins have made it clear they would love to send him to the NL. As a red sox fan from new york who grew up going to Mets games, I would be extremely happy to see Johan in the Blue and Orange. The way I see this, it is a win win for the red sox. either they keep their prospects and dont have to really ever face santana, or they get santana and add on to already the most dominant rotation in the AL. However, I still see the Sox as the favorite for a repeat world series, and Johan said if anyone remembers way back at the start of this that he would be most likely to waive his no trade clause to the team he felt most likely would make the world series. right now that, the prospects being offered, and theo's always so quite tounge all favor the red sox. as far as managers go theo keeps his mouth shut at all times and no one ever has any idea whats going on behind closed doors. The red sox have made many surprise moves since 2001, dont be surprised to see more of them.

Yankee fans, i'm sorry i gotta be a biased ass to those of you talking smack in this post. You are beaten. I know it hurts. You have beaten us for decades, cant take anything away from you there. YOU are the underdogs now. Don't aquire hank's attitude and think your still on the front line. I would go as far as to say the Mets have a better shot in '08. (no pun mets fans just mets are a team not known for winning. much love for the mets!) If the Mets aquire Johan and have that great rotation with billy wagner to close things out and sanchez or whatever his name is in the middle relief, the mets will be a damn tough team to beat and will definitely dominate the NL as they are really the only team besides the rockies that has an AL type batting lineup.

The plan for the Red Sox and Yankees all along was for the Mets to acquire Santana.

I don't want it. I want to see some young players actually play for the damn Mets for once.

are u kidding me? u do this trade in A heart beat if your the mets! Santana is like what 29, 30? Pitchers who clearly arent even taking hgh like glavine maddux and moyer are pitching into there 40's these days. Dont argue with me that we dont know cuz those guys clearly look older than say roger clemens and are throwing in the mid to high 80's where as clemens was in the 90's and doesn't have a wrinkle on his face. but either way it doesn't matter my point is that if santana is clean he still has potential to pitch 10 years here. and honestly I think 4 years of vintage johan is worth 4 prospects anyway. We have the money to sign those guys back when there free agents it doesn't matter. We also have two 1st round picks in the draft this year to replenish the farm. I'd rather keep f-mart and give them those 4 mentioned plus pelfrey or replace gomez with fmart but if I had to give them all up I would. Like I said we have the money to replace them and at least hes an outfielder. to me outfielders are much more expendable cause there more abundant than pitchers and infielders. Plus this guy is the undisputed best pitcher in baseball right now, he posts an era. under 3 in the american league in an era in which the average seems to be 4.50. LETS DO THIS!!!!

" how long can the Santana saga hold up the free agent pitching market?"

And what would that be? You mean to tell me teams are holding off on signing Kyle Lohse, Bartolo Colon, Kris Benson, et. al. on account of Santana? There IS NO free agent market for starting pitching this year. Carlos Silva was "the prize," if you want to call him that.

Santana/Beckett FTW; are you joking?
"they are really the only team besides the rockies that has an AL type batting lineup."
sorry, no excuse for ignorance there, the Phillies (remember them, the team that had that epic surge in September while the Amazing Mets looked stunned) AND Braves have AL type lineups. That's 3 teams in just the NL East.

BTW, I agree with Smoltz's Beard, I really hope this deal doesn't happen. Though I would not be surprised that, if it does, the Braves make a big bid for Joe Blanton using Brent Lillibridge. Hmm...Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, Blanton, Hampton/James/Jurrjens. Ahh, nice.

Hey JerseyMetFan

Don't be mad at me for the Mets trading Milledge, Omar did and now I can only HOPE he becomes one of "the list" because he sure did not bring much back.

Still, I wonder who left the note on his locker.

Just a few notes, Melky is a 4th OFer or a low end CFer I mean really if he played for Toronto or Arizona or some place like that no one would even know him.

Jon Lester ceiling is not as high as Hughes, however its not far behind.

Honestly I don't think the Red Sox want Santana, they would be really happy if the Mets get him, this is a purely Block the Yanks move or make the price big enough to ruin them. Amazing enough it seems like the yanks are realizing this and backing off.

I've got to say as well, I think Yankee fans are going to be the end of that team.
A year or 2 off to rebuild and stockpile some more prospects would put them in position to go on another Long run of AL divisions and playoff success. Could you imagine the uproar if they did that tho haha.

omg you should read the crap that this twins fans are talking about they think that the gotta chance to get reyes from the mets there smoking that good stuff man ....

NO way in HELL they are getting him ...

you gotta be kidding me .

and the BRaves still wont be better than the mets if they get blanton hrs over rated
andy do you really have faith in glavine that he s gonna have a decent yr after the crap that he did at the end of the season last yr cmon and you still need bullpen help the only have one soold guy in tha pen soriano and he faded last yr too .. cmon any andy ...

the phillies are better than braves and maybe mets too and i am a met fan saying that

Yeah, I wouldn't pay much attention to S/B FTW...he's the same guy that said the Red Sox payroll was 80-100 million dollars less than the Yankees last year.

I think the NL east should be really close again this year, but if the Mets get Johan the Braves might have to do something to even the playing field.

And after that rant, I wouldn't pay much attention to Dee Edge either...

"Santana is like what 29, 30? Pitchers who clearly arent even taking hgh like glavine maddux and moyer are pitching into there 40's these days."

Johan Santana is a very different pitcher from Glavine, Maddux and Moyer... Santana is a POWER pitcher who has average 228 IP (not including the playoffs) for the past 4 years.. That being said, it is not likely that he will be able to pitch into his forties without a huge drop-off in ability. That's not to say that he is going to drop-off or get hurt soon, because he is only going to be 29 by the start of the season.. but he is definitely a guy who comes with a reasonable amount of risk.

and why would any one listen to you and what place the braves finish the last 2 yrs ok then ....nuff said

Well, for starters I actually say things that have merit. I don't just spout off with random nonsense. Aside from Soriano in our bullpen, you forgot about Moylan...a guy that had a better season than anyone you had.

And who cares where we finished the last two years? I didn't see you guys winning the WS in '06 and you didn't even make the playoffs in '07. Sounds to me like a whiny pissant Met fan who is still bitter about 14 straight.

the braves dont wanna up their pay roll so what will make you think they will go trade for some one ? SB tell your so called braves fans to go to the games braves fans are front runners there jokes in my book even wen they were winning all those division champs ( not world series champs they act like its the same thing )they didnt sell out on average the attendance was 25 26 k a game come on how bad is that ....

at least wen your are frount running fans at least sell the building out ... please

Typical language skills of a Mets fan.

The Twins are definitely going to have to trade Santana for less than they originally thought, but who couldn't have predicted that? They have 3 offers that are all missing a piece:

1. The Hughes deal has that big time prospect, but then has used pinball machine parts after that.
2. The Ellsbury deal has the same problem.
3. The Crisp/Lester deal is similar to the Mets deal in that it has quantity, but not quality, as was previously mentioned.

None of these deals are going to miraculously get any better. The cards were all on the table at the Winter Meetings and we haven't made any progress since. Smith is going to have to decide which deal has the most upside and which missing piece he is willing to live without.

These offers are as good as it is going to get. And don't worry about the extension. These teams would not be involved if they weren't willing to pay it; they know the stakes.

i give you that but who thinks he really gonna do that again tho only braves fans lol your kidding me right who's bullpen is better right now seriously mets or braves your closer is ralphy soriano ... lets get real . you had dotel last yr and mayhay that made you better but you dont have them no more cmon face the facts man ... even tho the mets pen was bad last yr its still gonna be better than the braves this yr ill put money on it

Haha, Oh Dee, you crack me up. I mean, lets take a look at the Mets without Glavine last year (this year now, and without Santana that's one sad broken rotation). Even the "ace" of the staff, Perez, normally puts up a 5+ ERA. Don't get mad, now, I'm just reading the stats. How quickly you forget Glavine's 7 inning 3 hit performance against Houston on September 8th. Don't start bliming him for the Mets epic collapse. Lets face it, that was a team effort (even your hero Reyes is guilty on that one). I'll take Glavine, I believe with the 5th most quality starts in the league last year, over almost anyone on the Mets staff right now. The NL East won't be decided till September again next year. Don't think this thing is in the bag for anyone.

Dee, simply stop typing. You can't do that anyways (or can you simply not spell, I had such a hard time even deciphering your rant). Anyone paying attention will realize that every team in the East has major flaws.

Haha...so, when I disprove your statement about our bullpen you move on to our lack of attendance? Congrats, very compelling argument. And I always love when Mets fans bash us because we've only one 1 WS in the last 15 years. How many have you guys won in that span? You went to one and lost it. We've been to 5, and while we did lose all but 1...at least I got to see them win one.

And if you had done any research you would already know that our new owners have said that payroll will be increased. Anything else you'd like to say?

Dee, oh Dee, the Braves have 2 proven closers with Soriano and Mike Gonzalez (should be back in June). Joey Devine has been a top closing prospect, Manny Acosta, etc. Please, know what you are talking about before you rant. The Braves bullpen was so strong that they traded 1/4 of it for other needs.

Ok Braves fans just wait and see ok. i am not blaming him only the whole team choked we kno this allready, but what about him last 2 starts to end the season huh andy and what was his e.r.a after the allstar break huh andy . you can blame a lot of people reyes delgado wagner the whole god damn team but push comes to shove when they had him on the mound in the biggest game of the seanson against the FLORIDA FREAKING MARLINS he couldnt get outta the first inning ...
have fun with him because it will be a pleasure when they beat his brains .

hold up proven closers ?????

your funny man that was soriano first yr a full time closer and gonzalez was injured you dont kno what you gonna get from him he dont count for nothing . devine what happen to him when the braves gave him the closers job before they got wickman huh ok then give me someone relevant . devine is a prospect man not proven .

Hey, I'm being realistic. Glavine is no longer an ace, but a good 3rd starter. Since Pedro and El Duque are only 100-150 inning guys right now, he is positively fantastic (just so you know, those are the Mets 2 AND 3 starters). Glavine puts up at least 150 innings of quality starting.

Wow, whatever educational system Dee matriculated through (yeah Dee, I'm using big words to get you to open a dictionary) must be proud.

No one is saying the Braves will finish first - simply that at this point, without Santana, the Mets are not appreciably better than the Braves or Phillies. It will be a 3 team race all year. And the Braves' rotation is without a doubt stronger than last year. The depth of their bullpen is certainly better - it doesn't matter if you have Wagner if you lose the lead in the 7th.

Can't wait to "read" (more accurately, attempt to decipher) more of your ramblings, Dee.

ok andy i am not arguing with you no more ok . i see what your saing with Duque hes good when hes on the mound but he always get injured glavine is a great 3 rd starter i kno this but in big games he does very poorly for the last couple yrs . i kno the braves rotaion is WAAAAAY better than the mets own look at your top two cmon they have no chance to compete with them right now and i think pedro will throw more than 150 innings this yr( i hope lol ) its a contract yr and he said he wanna pitch more so i figure that he will have a very good yr

LuckoftheAmish, thank you. I feel that I can leave this thread having rested my case.

Easy people i am 24 years old and have a B A in computer engineering/ computer science i speak like this cuz i want too ok so have fun you want me to speak in another language ? i can do that too calm down where not in school . if you cant understand just keep it moving ok ..

thank you

by the way i am typing with two broken fingers

"They have billions and are being stubborn about there prospects, well enjoy second place yankee fans."

I am pretty sure that they would enjoy second place more then the whitesox will enjoy the cellar, but thats just my opinion.

"and honestly I think 4 years of vintage johan is worth 4 prospects anyway."

Yeah buddy, but we are paying for one year, not four. Thats what everybody forgets. They all say you get Santana for 8 years. Maybe, but the twins dont own those 8 years. They own one. Like Keith Law said, I could make the arguement that you dont even trade Fernando Martinez straight up for Johan for one year. I would love to see Johan on the Mets, but I think if the Mets trade Gomez, Guerra, and Nando in this deal that it will go down as a bad one for the Mets in 10 years or so.

Please Tim - I beg of you don't worry about flashing or talking ads - black on white or white on black - for the love of god figure out a way to add spellcheck to the site.

"Hey JerseyMetFan

Don't be mad at me for the Mets trading Milledge, Omar did and now I can only HOPE he becomes one of "the list" because he sure did not bring much back.

Still, I wonder who left the note on his locker. "

Its weird how people still dont seem to realize that Minaya got 2 proven, every day major league baseball players for a prospect who;s star had dimmed significantly. How often do you see a prospect traded for 2 everyday players? I am sorry that they arent both 950 OPS guys, like mets fans want at every position (just dont accuse them of being jealous of the Yankee roster), but they are both solid major league players. If Church was on the Mets last year he would have ranked 3rd on their team in OPS vs righthanders. Schneider is a stud behind the plate. He used Milledge to help the team now while gambling that Milledge will not develop into a star. Its funny how this guy is advocating trading our entire farm for Santana, a win now move where you are gaurunteed to lose out in 5 years or so, yet he then criticizes a trade that brings in 2 solid, albeit not superstar guys, in a trade that will absolutely 100 percent help us out in the short term. Hypocrite

Touchmymonkey... lolololol. I wonder which one of our posters (cough dee egde cough) you were referring too?

"Haha.....Mets fans kill me.

No chance Pedro pitches 100 innings. None."

I am all for hyperbole and everything, but shut up. I bet he has a better chance to get to 100 innings then Ben "ouch my groin my foot my shoulder my back hurts" Sheets.

Dee, I have no idea where to begin anymore. There's no chance that you watched more Braves games than I have in the last 2 years so please stop making blanket assessments that are untrue. Your remarks on Glavine, Soriano, and Devine are so far off base it's actually kind of sad.

"Easy people i am 24 years old and have a B A in computer engineering/ computer science i speak like this cuz i want too ok so have fun you want me to speak in another language ? i can do that too calm down where not in school . if you cant understand just keep it moving ok ..

thank you

by the way i am typing with two broken fingers

Posted by: Dee Edge | January 10, 2008 at 02:10 PM"

Wow. Just....Wow. I am seriously amazed you know how to use a computer. I'm pretty sure they gave you your degree out of pity if you truly did graduate. Last I checked broken fingers were not located in your brain.

But seriously, this thread has been hijacked. Let's lay off the Braves because well..they suck. =)

"Typical language skills of a Mets fan."

See, thats not very nice is it? Not all of us are like that.

Would be kind of like if I said.... " look at this guy making out with his own cousin and reproducing with his sister. Typical redneck Braves fan behavior."

Although I agree, Dee Edge seems like a 9 year old kid.

Nrmax - you're giving him too much credit


Mets bullpen VS Braves pen: Wagner >>> Soriano; Sanchez > Gonzalaz; Heilman >> Moylan; Joe Smith > Manny Acosta; My five year old neighbor > Joey Devine
How can you possibly say the braves have a better pen. That's like saying glavine is a better number three starter than Oliver Perez... oops, I guess you got that one wrong too!
So let's look at the two rotations now: Hudson > Pedro; Maine > Smoltz; Perez >> Glavine; Duque > James; Pelfrey/ Mulvey = a healthy Hampton.
The only advantage the Braves have there is the presence of a true ace. If the Mets got Santana, the Mets would have a 25 game lead over the braves by mid May. So stop being such obstinate people who can only provide arguments by making fun of somebody's writing skills.

Looks like minnesota was smart to let this linger. That package is crazy. I'm glad I want to see this yankees team against this red sox team it's so close it's gonna be fun.

I stopped reading your post when you said that Sanchez is on par with Soriano. Sanchez hasnt pitcher in a year and a half. I would be happy and surprised if he ever has success at the major league level again. I hope I am wrong, but he has been out forever and didnt rehab very hard and that was part of the reason he got hurt again and missed all of 07. And saying Maine is better then Smoltz is also a joke. But then again, arent you the guy who guarunteed a division championship for the Royals?

How is sanchez better then gonzales, how is heilman better then moylan, how is smith better then acosta, maine is better then smoltz??? Please explain.

where did I say sanchez was on par with soriano???

joemorgan: While it's not like Maine is superior to Smoltz he is definately better. Maine hasn't reach his baseball prime (age 28) yet, and still won 15 games with an injured hip. Whereas, it's hard to see Smoltz having more than a couple of years left in the tank.

moylan 5-3 1.80 90.0 ip
smoltz 14-8 3.11 205 ip 197k
acosta 2.28 22. ip
gozales 1.59

sanchez-did not play!
maine 15-10 3.91
smith 3.45
heilman 3.03 86 ip
okay just from last ears numbers alone moylan is better then heilman smoltz is better then maine sanchez did not play so that explains itself and acosta had a better era but smith through double his innings so that really can't be judged and oh yeah they are rookies. A lot changes in a year.

Wow, cgouds your head is in the clouds. Please, I implore you to take one look at Oliver Perez's career, that career where he has a career 4.43 ERA and not tell me 2007 was a likely fluke. Glavine: 300 Wins. hmmm... Oh, lets just keep going then shall we. As I previously posted, as good as El Duque and Pedro are, THEY AREN'T RELIABLE. They may not even put up 200 innings COMBINED.
I only once commented on Dee's writing, before I knew about his unfortunate situation, and only to point out that his posts were hard to decipher. Other than that, I think you will find many comments by Braves fans here quite intelligent, informed, and even elloquent; traits that cannot be used to describe your rather discourteous diatribe.

Smoltz had an injured shoulder all year so injuries don't matter and I'm not talking about what will happen five years from now we are talking about who is better now.

Also Heilman is definately better than Moylan. Moylan is the type of pitcher hitters always tend to figure out (hard thrower with a funky delivery; EX: Dontrelle Willis). The only reason people don't realize how productive Heilman is, is that he has collapsed at key points in his career (EX: Yadier Molina, Game 6, Top of the ninth).

Maine is better than Smoltz? Are you f-ing serious?

Do we really need to discuss the differnce in smoltz and and maine? Really? For real?

"Maine > Smoltz" Probably the stupidest statement on this site all week. I am not even going to waste my energy explaining why.

While I agree that cgouds head is in the clouds, there is no way that Perez's 07 was a fluke. You are definitely wrong there. I also agree that Perez is a much more valuable weapon to have then Glavine at this point. Perez has sick stuff, and everybody remembers the year that he dominated in Pittsburgh. Then he struggled. He changed teams, worked with a new pitching coach and regained some of his old form (he still isnt close to his ceiling yet, which is a legit ace of a staff). He should be even better this year.

Also Heilman is definately better than Moylan. Moylan is the type of pitcher hitters always tend to figure out (hard thrower with a funky delivery; EX: Dontrelle Willis). The only reason people don't realize how productive Heilman is, is that he has collapsed at key points in his career (EX: Yadier Molina, Game 6, Top of the ninth).
Sanchez is not only a better pitcher than Gonzalez, I believe that he will indeed be back to his old form by June. He is a legit closer candidate for the Mets after Wagner if he changes his attitude. Whereas, Gonzalez won't be back until after the break.


Even if that is true that pitchers like moylan are easy to figure out which it is not how do you know that. It's imposible to know that. Heilman throws kind of three quarters too so why is he not included.

Okay you can think what you want but where is the proof. Do you hve any to show that sanchez is better then gonzales?

dude you're a brave fan, relax, dont take out your aggression that your highlight signing of the offseason was our worst starting pitcher...enjoy glavine because god knows I will be front row cheering when he implodes all over shea.

nrmax, I respectfully disagree. I do believe that Perez's season was a fluke, and his history both before and after his 2004 season seem to agree with me. Does he have a high ceiling, maybe, but only if he can keep it together. He will have to show me more than 1 season before I believe that, though.
He seems to flourish when he moves to new teams, then fall apart. After all, he pulled a 3.50 ERA before he fell apart in San Diego, and that park is a pitcher's dream. His following year with SD, 19 games and a 5.87 ERA. I think it is simply a matter of the league figuring him out for the first year.
Only time will tell.


Personally I just hope this gets done within the next 24/48 hours.

How is Gomez, Guerra, Mulvey, and Humber better than Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Masterson.

but andy i disagree on what you said ... perez was in the league for a while now.

Dont you think the league would of figured him out already ?

Do any Mets fans actually have a grip on reality? I don't understand why you all feel like the world owes you so much. Glavine gives you over a 1000 innings of above average pitching and all of a sudden he's your worst starter last season, just because his last start was a bust?

Yes, most Mets fans have a grip on reality. Dee Edge is in his own little world, giving the rest of us Mets fans a horrible name.

Glavine wasn't our worst starter. He was good. Sure he went out on a monstrously sour note, but shyte happens.

Thanks for what you've done, but we're ready to move on. He was too. It worked out well.

Dee, he has only been in the NL East, an absolute gauntlet of big bats, for 1 year. As I said before, in the NL West where big AL style offenses are less common, in a hitters park like SD's, he had a great rookie year. Then he fell apart. He seemed to pick back up in Pitt. In fact, he had a monster year in the NL Central. Then he fell apart. This year he became the ace of the Mets staff. However, if the pattern I have seen continues, next year he may well fall apart. No guarantees, maybe he really has turned a page. I just don't believe he has. Maybe its also because I'm a Braves fan and I hope he hasn't. The only way to find out is to watch next season.

Actually, SMoltzbeard, one met fan said that. Not Met fans. I think Glavine is a solid number 3 who will struggle to make it through 6 innings. Almost never through 7. And he pitched awfully the last 3 starts of the year when we needed him the most. That sticks with people. And also, everybody knew that he was only on the Mets in the first place because he got in a little fight with JS. Then last year we waited months for him to find out whether the Braves wanted him before he came back to NY. I hold no grudges against him, I thank him for the time he spent here and for the 2 draft picks he left us on his way out the door.

I know...the second I posted that, I knew I should have phrased it differently. I apologize, because I think the Braves/Mets is a great rivalry. I wish that I had more people to hold innocent conversations about it with.

But Dee Edge, C-Gouds, and whoever said that Glavine was the worst strater just blurt things out and it makes me wonder if they even watch baseball at all.

God, now I'm all flustered...INTELLIGENT conversations is what I meant to say.

While I think Glavine is a more solid number 3 than many, I also would like to point out that his contribution to the team goes beyond just HIS performance. I think that Chuck James, a lefty with a very similar approach, could benefit Tremendously with Glavine's help. He is already a consistant 10+ game winner with a mid 3's ERA when healthy. His mechanics leave much to be desired. That's where a guy like Glavine could really make a difference.

Andy, you should also remember though, Perez is still only like 26 years old. There is one thing about Perez that will mean everything for his success/failure over the next 5 or 6 years. Can he keep the walks down. To me, that is literally the one thing that stands in his way of superstardom. That has always been his problem. He got his walk rate down a little bit this year to around 4bb/9. If he can get it down to around 3.5 per 9 he should be very solid. If he can get it down to around 3 per 9 he should dominate.

ok ok i understand all that you are saying SB . Very accurate And valid points . but glavine and maine was the worst starters for the mets down the stretch his last 3 starts wasnt good at all ...

here they are

sept 20 @ FLA






Well, down the stretch are the key words there. And you can curse Glavine until the cows come home over his last start, but you know that as a Braves fan I have to hold out hope. It just seriously doubt that last start will damn his '08 season to eternity.

And trust me, I remember how poorly he and Maine pitched at times (especially that 470 foot bomb Chipper hit off the RF scoreboard). I always pay attention to the Mets boxscore, so I can rub it in the face of my friend who is a Mets fan. =)

And that's a point that alot of people miss, is that all we're asking from Glavine is to be a #3. No offense, but you guys were asking alot more of him.




How about you shut up. Seriously. What kind of 24 year old college graduyate with a degree in whatever the hell you said you had a degree in types like a dumbass in caps lock while disussing something in a blog. You also change your opinion on stuff like every 5 minutes after everybody calls you an idiot. Stop posting nonsense.



I remember when Pedro was with the Expos and there were rumors about him going somewhere else. It was about the same time that I learned about the interwebs. Back then you didn't type in caps and expect to be taken seriously. Granted, I was a teenager at the time, maybe this information glut we have going on hasn't improved overall class amongst posters, even if they have studied computer science?

When it goes up it stays up. Please take the time to appear as if you thought about what you were doing.

Best Regards and no hard feelings,


Since the conversation about the NL East bullpens has been so heated today, there is now a poll up at http://ultimatebaseball-cgouds.blogspot.com
Please cast your votes!

Dee, actually the caps dont bother me nearly as much as the build up of idiotic looking posts over the last month, posted by Dee Edge.

But youre right, you are free to post whatever idiotic nonsense you feel like in this country, so by all means, continue. I guess the jokes on me.

c-gouds, im pretty sure i remember tim saying something about posting your own website on here awhile back

04Forever; He meant just posting a link without discussing the post. It may sound a little cheap; but, I guess it's sort of a loopoll.

nrmax88 - when I was at work we were arguing, and in the span of time it took me to get home I'm laughing at your latest comments. Funny stuff.

I'm not a Glavine hater, but the reality is that his '07 production is not all that hard to replace. His ERA+ was what, 96? I think they can cover that (or close to it) with Livan.

Give me Livan and the 18th and 33rd picks.

As stated above, Willie was leaning on him to be a #1 despite the fact he was far from that. As the Braves #3 or #4, that's fine.

If he was on this team and the Mets made it to the playoffs, Willie would try and get him in as many times as possible when he probably should be the 4th starter. With Willie, it is important these temptations are removed since he is not capable of making such decisions.

Also, another year of watching Glavine nibble away to full counts 70% of the time would have driven me to the loony bin.

Glavine leaving the Mets worked out great if you ask me.

I do think the Braves have a good rotation, but I think their offense is a bit behind the Mets. Both bullpens are a toss up this year. We won't know if either is truly effective until we play some games, but I'm pretty optimistic about the Met bullpen.

Overall, I actually think the Phillies are third best team in the division. They are a hair behind the Braves and the Mets are slightly ahead of the Braves provided they get Livan out there for a capable 4th starter that can eat some innings. If Pedro comes back stronger than many think, I will upgrade my outlook.

Are the Red Sox completely out of this now?...

first off what is up with this site? I'm new so maybe I was just unaware but I mean i go back to work and come home only to find a thread about a Johan Santana trade turn into a braves vs mets debate. Its pretty stupid to me why are braves fans posting on here about there bullpen? Talk about the trade proposal and the mets or shut up and hit the braves rumor mill up. gotta be kidding me man, this isnt the 90's anymore. In another 2 or 3 seasons Washington might out play Atlanta. If the Mets dont get Johan the Phillies could win the division but the braves are 3rd place at best. I agree 100% with u guys that Smoltz blows Maine away the guy is a future hall of famer. Maine is never going into coopers town hes a good number 3 starter. Perez does have #1 stuff when hes on but hasnt pitched enough seasons yet for us to say hes normally this or normally that. He's been pretty much 50/50. Great or Horrible. Fortunately for us hes been good in New York and is young. You cant throw him under the bus till its july and his era is over 4.50. but I dont see that happening. I think Maine might have more problems than Perez he gives up alot of homeruns and I know he can pitch but he dont have the nasty stuff that Oliver has. That being said this deal is a no brainer like I said before. One guy responded to me saying that "yeah its a good deal assuming he signs an extension but were talking about 1 year." No were not talking about one year. NObody is talking about one year. Not the Mets the Yanks or the Sox. If Johan is traded a contract extension is being worked out before it goes down. Thats probably why hes not in Boston because he doesn't seem to want to pitch there. And yo Braves fans are saying we got new owners we have money....Atlanta isn't and never will be New York. We are the capital of the god damn world, the planes hit us, wall street is here. We should just print money in this state you have to be kidding me with that statement its ridiculous. The only team with more money than us is the yankees lol. where do they play again? Damn u guys no the war is over and u lost right? The south will never have our revenue so go sell some more cancer sticks and watch us kick your ass' continuously forever. Maybe not every year in baseball but definitely this season and always in $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Nice. - you turned a braves - mets bullpen debate into an Us vs Them

I'm a Yankees fan who couldn't give a rip about the Braves or the Mets, but I've got a question for those who claim Melky is nothing more then a 4th OF.

Last year as a 22 year old, he posted a 4.4 WARP1, which BP projected to be worth about $11.5M.

Do you think Melky has peaked at 22 and is going to get worse? Do you think he was just lucky in '07? Where does the 4th OF opinion come from -- are you looking only at his OPS? Because I'm betting you didn't watch a significant number of Yankee games to form your opinion.

Instead, I'm guessing you just hate the fact that Yankee fans "overhype" their own, and have to counter that by downgrading any/all their younger players? Were you also the same ones 2 years ago saying Cano and Wang were flukes?

And FWIW, Torii Hunter posted a WARP1 value better then 4.4 exactly 3 times in his entire career.

Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark, looking like you're riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It's depressing.


Can you please get rid of Land-Man's comment and consider banning him.


Its'a joke slick....its a John Rocker quote from a magazine interview years ago.

Thanks Pete, didn't get that part. The first is farce, the second tragedy, right?

Francesa and Ed Coleman both said they spoke to the Mets front office today and were told the Twins still haven't backed off of Reyes.

These reports out of Minnesota newspapers seem like the Twins spreading propaganda to light a fire under the Yankees and Red Sox. It probably isn't going to work though...at this point both the Yanks and Sox probably hope Santana winds up on the Mets.

themetros - I would love for you to elaborate on why the Mets offense is better than the Braves. If you want to do a position by breakdown we can, but I really think they're both almost a complete wash...which is why it'll be a great rivalry again this year.

Stefano - this is a blog. People will talk about whatever the hell they want to. If you don't like it, too bad. Your statement about the Braves being bad in 3 years is pretty funny, considering how many aging ballplayers the Mets have on their team. I also never was bragging about the amount of money the Braves have. I merely countered the arugment of one of your ignorant brethren by saying that our payroll will be increased with the new ownership. Besides, money doesn't mean anything in baseball. You guys should know that...you've spent plenty of it over the last 15 years and only have 1 NL East banner to show for it.

Tim...is there a way that you can add an ignore feature to this site? Cause I think I just found a new person to add to my list.

What's up guys..being a new member on this blog (MET fan), I'll start by saying all the brave-met talk on this particular blog is dumb. It's ABOUT JOHAN SANTANA. So let's stick to the script shall we? No was far as this trade is concerned, it'll be a travesty if Minaya doesn't grab his balls and rolll the dice. Hitters are born overnight (J. Rollins hitting 20-something homers last yr, for instance), but the best pitcher in baseball? I'm embarassed to still be talking about this..lol. should've been done already. In addition, he's a lefty that'll stifle the Philly 3,4,5 hitters, and the rest of the NL for that matter. Factor in a great pitcher-friendly catcher in Schneider, and you've got a good look. I can go on about all the positive factors, but you guys already know...Bottom line, get the guy, grab up a potent bat after 08, and wisely use those picks from the Glavine trade.

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