Cubs Did Not Offer Ceda

True, crunchy, but still a clubs best 3 pitching prospects are just that. Sure, Ceda as 'untouchable' obviously looks like it was a media plant to 'sweeten the offer' later (now), as it turns out. I am not all to thrilled with this 5 or 6 for 1 or even 2 offer. Because the 2nd guy is Payton.

Cubbie, Harden was just traded From the A's to the D-backs in the offseason. Blanton is not as good away from Oakland.

Gallagher/Veal/Ceda/Cedeno? Not the specific package I figured (thought Colvin instead of Ceda) but the value is about the same… Also think we will see one more name included (most likely Huseby, or a similar low-minors project type) in exchange for Payton + cash relief.

Ironically, I’m not sure I actually see the Cubs dealing Marquis since Gallagher is being moved. The rotation today includes Zambrano/Hill/Lilly and 2 of Demptster/Marquis/Lieber/Marshall. Well, I cant imagine the Cubs feel Dempster/Lieber will get them through the entire year, and Marshall (2-4, 5.77 ERA, 1.806 WHIP in starts after Trade-Deadline) was actually worse than Marquis (5-3, 4.83 ERA, 1.49 WHIP in starts after Trade-Deadline) down the 07 stretch. As much as Lou cant seem to stand the guy, it’s a matter of having options here. Not trading Marquis means you have both Jason + Sean to choose from later on ~ trading Marquis means you don’t have much fallback… Infact, I say use him in the first half (the half he seems to be better in) and then trade him at the break to get back whatever prospect you are moving for Payton…

Looking at my post it seems I am ok with a 5 for 1 or 6 for 2 but don't want Payton. I don't really want Payton, but I would be unhappy with a 5 for 1 or 6 for 2 trade with Roberts, too.

Adun, you're right to a point. Sports guys make up rumors and some are closer than others. I doubt the 5 for 1 or 6 for 2 stories are that far off. I know, we'll see. Ceda was obviously to be included all along. We knew Gallagher and Cedeno were mostly on target as well. Veal was thought to be included by many. That's 4 right there. Marquis possible? That means Payton coming back. Leaving a possibility for another throw in or decent upside guy. Wow.

Yeah, yeah...my goof on Haren and Harden.

I used to negotiate with attorneys…so I have a handle on how the process works. From McPhail’s side Ceda may have been the guy he targeted all along – but the stories about asking for Pie, or even Colvin, are probably plants as well. I didn’t mean to make it seem as if the Cubs were the ones pulling all the strings. Anyway, McPhail makes an offer he doesn’t expect the Cubs to truly consider….we were all aghast that the O’s would ask for Pie. But hey! It doesn’t hurt to ask, right? But the real point was to come back later and say, “Well, OK, no Pie but how about Ceda?” Well Ceda, from the Cubs point of view, looks like a concession from McPhail when in reality, McPhail never really expected to get Pie or Colvin. It’s all a dance and both teams will make a deal around the parameters that they set ahead of time. Rarely does one guy give up more than they planned to, especially when both GM’s have this much experience.

I know GMs dance.

But these two have done the Two-Step, Tango and Waltz.

Re: Ndano's comment above, obviously I'm not privy to any more information than anyone else here, but just from a straight common sense standpoint, there is NO WAY that Carlos Marmol is a part of this deal.

Good one, studio! CFFL, don't worry. There's no way Marmol AND Ceda are in the deal. There's no way Marmol is in the deal, period. mmontice- I'm cool with that (LOL)
What deal is Ndano referring to that CCFL proposed?

Milehigh, I'm not sure, I don't recall proposing any deals in this thread. :) Based on everything we've heard so far, I think it's eventually going to play out like:

Cubs Get:
Brian Roberts
Jay Payton
Cash considerations

O's Get:
Sean Gallagher
Ronny Cedeno
Donald Veal
Jose Ceda
Jason Marquis

CUBBIES2008-
Dude, wake up and smell reality. We're talking Gallagher, Veal, Ceda, and Cedeno and there's talk of more and you're back at Marshall, Marquis, Ceda, Patterson, Cedeno, and Fox?!! It ain't just a river in Egypt, bud. Throw in the proposed deal with the A's and you're all twisted. Why, if the offer is as it's rumored, would the O's take that crap-tastic package. You may feel it's too much, but work with what we've got. You don't even include Gallagher in your deal! The only names worth considering are Cedeno, Patterson, and Ceda, and only Ceda is a full-blown top prospect. Sometimes you gotta know when to give up; like crunchy said, you're not giving up THAT much, even in the deal's currently rumored state.

All in all, I don't like the way the wind is blowing on this thread at the moment; are the kids getting out of school? Even crunchy seems to be backtracking; trying to WILL the cat back into the bag. We've all been talking about the dance card for a while, but now it sounds like you're trying to say the Cubs are picking the songs. Granted, the Ceda/Colvin flip was sweet on Hendry's part, but to say that Colvin was a plant is shortsighted (in my opinion). In fact, I'd venture to say he's still in play...if a longshot. At this point, McPhail would be taking an awfully big chance chasing after him with so much already on the table. Think about it, though; to say that Colvin was a plant would be saying that, eventually, Hendry will relent on him as well. I know that's not what you meant, but how else did you intend it?! That he was a plant on McPhail's end and that he really wanted Ceda all along? It just doesn't make any sense.

Dark- I tend to agree with you (and truly, it has nothing to do with my bias, which I freely admit) with regard to there being another prospect and Payton included. Huesby sounds about right, judging from how things are going (McPhail leaning toward acquiring pitching and only pitching- good call Outlaw) and the rumor-mill (on the Cubs end no less) DOES suggest another prospect joining the party; still, if there IS going to be another name prospect, I think I'd prefer a position player. I'd love Thomas, but that might be too much to expect. Kid's got some buzz behind him (much more so than even Huesby, who has cooled). I'd even accept both Patterson and Cedeno, which I think would be OK with most Cubs fans (the thinking being that neither stand to factor into the Cubs current or even future plans in any significant way).

Buddha-
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I conceded as much as I'm willing to. Remember my post was in response to a guy saying that Sherrill/Marmol was a dead heat and that he'd take Sherrill on experience. I said that Marmol's value FAR exceeds that of Sherrill. Nevertheless, I don't think that any baseball 'insider' would agree with your assessment that he has more value than Roberts. At least not yet! I know that many of you Cubs fans still question Roberts' talent or worth because of how it affects the exchange rate for this deal, but AT PRESENT, there's little doubt in my mind that Roberts has greater value. Would Marmol command an org's three top pitching prospects, a fourth player capable of at least filling a utility role, and potentially one or two others?! I highly doubt it. Hell, what did Gagne bring back? Kason Gabbard, Engel Beltre, and David Murphy? And that's for a guy with a Cy Young trophy on his mantle (albeit an aging one). Gabbard roughly equates to Gallagher...maybe. Beltre's a nice prospect, but at a surplus position. Murphy looks like a career 4th outfielder (at least on a decent club). I would certainly argue that the Cubs' offer for Roberts AT LEAST equals that- though we won't know for sure until the ink is dry. Talk to me in two years...one even and the story might be different, but I really think you're overvaluing a Cubs youngster yet again (though this time, I agree its somewhat warranted).

You said it all with that last post Buddha. Gotta love ya, but...wow. (smacking my head against my desk in frustration). You really drank the Cubbie Kool Aid. :)

"I tend to agree with you (and truly, it has nothing to do with my bias, which I freely admit) with regard to there being another prospect and Payton included. Huesby sounds about right, judging from how things are going "

We have been over this, but I really still believe that we are doing the O's a HUGE favor by taking Payton off of your hands. He is awful, and makes too much money. Why in the world would we have to give up another prospect for that? Also, I don't think Huesby is going anywhere. he is another Wilken guy for one thing, and he would be our last projectable pitcher left with real upside. I don't think Hendry is that dumb. If we take Payton, you will be taking Marquis.

I agree Jr...its time to flip Murton for Prospects. What about the RedSox giving us Tavarez for Marshall? Anyone think thats a possibility? He would fit the long man\emergency starter perfectly, and we need a righty for that, not a 3rd lefty. Probably not...just a thought.

Adun, you and I are on the same wavelength today...I tried to post this before typekey foiled me...

Milehigh, I’d rather have Colvin too if I’m the O’s but I think both teams probably gave a little and I think the deal is essentially set. There may be a couple of minor changes here and there but nothing that will get either side too excited. In other words, there won’t be a Colvin for Payton addendum to the deal. If Payton is in the deal, it’s as a throw-in (Maybe the Cubs will try to stick the O’s with Marquis) --and Huseby won’t be involved. If I’m wrong on that you can all call me out and tell me “I told ya so…”. But I’ll be very surprised if that happens. In fact, if the proposed deal is correct, none of Wilken’s players are in the deal…consistent with what Bleacher Buddha and Studio have speculated.

For what it’s worth, Roberts and Payton aren’t in the lineup for the O’s today and Cedeno is out of the lineup for the Cubs. Dempster is starting and Gallagher has been following him. If Gallagher doesn’t pitch today, I’m gonna get awfully suspicious…

I am also in the group that will gladly tell you that Marmol is worth more than Gagne. Gagne might have a resume, but he also has an 89 MPH fastball that doesn't look so good as it did when it was 95. He has been injured a ton, and STILL brought back a haul. What has Marmol shown you that doesn't say he is a young K-Rod? He just started pitching for the first time a few years ago...he used to be a catcher. Think of his potential! Take out a few walks and he is Papelbon. (I didn't write that, it was baseball prospectus.) he is worth a ton...but like you remind me of all the time, its not what a player is worth, but the situation the trade happens in. if the cubs have Ceda ready, and can deal Marmol, but don't have to, the other team would have to give them a GREAT offer. More than he is "worth", which is why the cubs are giving you more than roberts is "worth".

Adun, I'd prefer Tavarez, too, but I think the Sox may have a certain comfort level with him.

I'm also worried that we won't have enough for a mid-season move for a pitcher. Kevin Hart, eat your Wheaties!

Could the O's use Micah Hoffpauir? If they have been scouting these games, you would think they would be AWFULLY impressed by this kid. He has been crushing the ball, and the Cubs have nowhere to play him.

"If I’m correct, it seems a question of Payton + Cash + Murton for Huseby *OR* Byrd for Murton + Huseby. I think you have to take the first, makes much more sense… "

You aren't correct. The cubs have many more options than Byrd (that trade is dead if they want more than Murton!) and Payton (horrendous player that O's fans call a "clubhouse cancer")

Dark,

I hope they dont make a deal for Byrd. I saw him play a few times last year and he played well. But over his career he has been inconsistant and I dont think he will match those numbers this year. I would rather keep Pie/Fuld as our CF options. If need be sign Lofton even though he is a lefty.

Buddha-
...beside which, haven't you heard?! We're getting Marmol in the deal! Ndano said so! Ceda too! I can't wait 'til he updates us on the new Vitters, Colvin, Thomas, Donaldson, Tinkers, Evers, and Chance inclusions. The O's will, of course, be adding Freddie Bynum and Brandon Fahey to balance things.

We already had 'Fast Freddy' once. Dial him over to Cincy...Dusty's waiting.

We will even throw in the last 2 WS trophies and the Keys to Wrigley too.

These are the saddest of possible words:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."
Trio of bear cubs, and fleeter than birds,
Tinker and Evers and Chance.
Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble,
Making a Giant hit into a double --
Words that are heavy with nothing but trouble:
"Tinker to Evers to Chance."

Not sure what trolling means but it doesn't sound like a compliment.

All I'm doing is telling you what a friend of mine who says he has connections with someone who does legal work for te Orioles has told me. Is he pulling my leg? I have no way of knowing for sure, but if you read all the stuff I've written so far, it's been very accurate. I assume you can pull up a thread on this site?

Time will tell I suppose.

I’ve been trying to post today while trying to work…not easy. So I apologize in advance if I repeat anything anybody has already said! I’ve only had time to scan things quickly.

Okay, maybe this means nothing but Gallagher did not pitch today as he usually does when Dempster starts. Dempster by the way got bombed. Maybe we can keep Marquis instead? Dempster’s contract is a better situation – I think. Anybody know?

You aren't correct. The cubs have many more options than Byrd (that trade is dead if they want more than Murton!) and Payton (horrendous player that O's fans call a "clubhouse cancer")

Posted by: Aduncaroo"

So much for that idea, looks like talks with texas are still ongoing. Its good to have a backup plan if Payton isnt in the Roberts deal.

"Okay, maybe this means nothing but Gallagher did not pitch today as he usually does when Dempster starts. Dempster by the way got bombed. Maybe we can keep Marquis instead? Dempster’s contract is a better situation – I think. Anybody know?"

Still think the Cubs should/will keep all four of Dempster/Lieber/Marshall/Marquis if Gallagher is traded. Better to have more options when you are not secure with any of the four really...

If Gallagher is traded, then we have to hold on to Marquis. He's in the rotation right now. One of Lieber/Dempster is in the rotation and Marshall is in AAA.

First, I was just joking about Hoffpauir or whatever his name is. I haven't heard of him, but I knew you weren't making him up. Just thought it was funny. Guess not. You guys may be right about a Payton/Marquis switcheroo, but I gotta think that the O's demand another prospect (nothing crazy mind you) if that's the case (which I actually think it is) in order to make up for the salary discrepancy and second year. Payton, as you pointed out, is making $5 mil. He IS a clubhouse cancer (no more than Marquis, who's been whining like a little girl about wanting to start) who, nevertheless, fills a hole in the Cubs' roster (RH? veteran backup to Pie). Marquis on the other hand, is signed for 6.35 mil this year and 9.75 mil in '09, seems like just as big a pain in the a$$, and...well...he doesn't exactly fill an O's need, but as the old axiom goes, you can never have too much starting pitching. Some quick arithmetic shows that the O's are eating over $10 mil over the next TWO years (instead of one) by making such an exchange...which may be exactly what McPhail is counting on...that's extra leverage for...that's right, another prospect. That's assuming the two are part of the deal, but it's not like this is coming out of left field. Any number of things could happen, from both teams keeping their respective punks to either club making up the $ difference, to the aforementioned prospect dealing. Who knows; I just think that the latter seems the most probable. Maybe not the most desirable for you Cubs fans, but that's another story.

'Good point, Darkstar.'- crunchy.

Holy...freakin'...crap. Cats and dogs, living together! Mass chaos!

I believe Dempster is at 7 mil this year without looking up anything. But some of that could be with closing incentives. Regardless, it is less than Marquis. I have done a reverse on Marquis the last few days. I wanted him gone by opening day because of his attitude. But it could be in the Cubs best interest to keep him and the three headed monster in the 4 & 5 SP slots. If the other two pitch well and Dempster does this performance again, Lou will have an easier time putting Ryan in the BP. If they all do well from here out, Lou could skip a guy his turn to start and insert the other of the three and work itself out.

I hope Lou did put a spur in Jason. Maybe he will win more and be more consistant for us if he stays.

I also noticed that the Cubs used 2 different SS to finish the game for Cintron -- and neither was Cedeno. They even put Fontenot at SS (not his position) and Theriot who had been given the day off. I've got the feeling this deal is done.

Good call, crunchy. No Roberts or Payton today, either.

And Studio, that goes with my point too. Wilken would not sign off on a guy that he "discovered" in Huseby- then paid 1.3 million to keep him out of college. Then he hasn't even seen him pitch a full year. That won't fly. If there's another pitching prospect, it's a guy from the McPhail days. But there won't be many of those left after this Roberts deal gets done.

And JR, I don't know if you read my post earlier but Gallagher didn't pitch today either...he previously followed Dempster every game this spring. MIA today...Lieber mopped up instead.

I agree. I knew the Cubs paid Huseby 1.3 mil out of school and Samardzija 10 mil out of school (not to play football) and guys like that are not going.

Milehigh, outstanding work on the seven stages.

Studio,

When this deal gets done everyone will post just once. All will say the same thing.

"I told you so" :-)

I honestly dont think that they can come up with a trade of cubs prospects for Roberts that hasnt been mentioned. :-)

It wasn't Marmol's turn to pitch today. He pitched yesterday. Your schtick is getting old, ndano.

Anyone else suspicious that the Cubs have moved Soriano to the #2 spot in the lineup. Are they saving the leadoff for Roberts? This was new from yesterday.

Also, everyone is assuming that the 5 or 6 for 2 has to Payton. Whos says it has to be Payton? Couldnt it be Sherrill. The O's are going to get what they want if this deal, the Cubs are going to get what they want, which is a left handed hitter that bats lead off AND left handed bullpen help. I know no one is going to agree with me but its my story and I am going with it. And it doesnt sound bad.

Gallagher/Ceda/Veal/Cedeno/Patterson
FOR
Roberts/Sherrill

i think it would be fair on both sides of the deal. The O's get 3 top prospective pitchers. They get Cedeno to fill in at SS, and if he hits like he did in AAA then he would be more then worth it. And Patterson would fill needs at 2nd with a higher upside and if someone in the Outfield goes down he can play there too.

The O's lose Roberts and a great 2nd baseman who wont be able to help them in the future. And they lose a RP who is might or might not have closed for the O's, but wasnt going to help them in the future.

OH CRAP, here we go again, Not Ceda!?!?!

And another 35,000 words devoted to nothingness.

Who the hell knows anymore? Can we get consistent, reliable, and valid info anywhere anymore? If you do, and I won't hold my breath, let me know.

This trade talk is beginning to feel like going to a strip club--alot of talk, foreplay, and no action...and if something does go down, it's going to cost us an awful lot. Then we regret it the next day.

When all is said and done, we at least have to trade something for someone. Maybe we can do an even swap for club house attendants? Maybe we can get in a 3-way with the Mets...I hear their club house attendants are pretty good...

Payton and Marquis as throw ins on this trade would be totally assine from a Cubs standpoint. Sorry, I'm kinda in a fowl
mood and tired but, I was in gods country today. Well almost, O'Hare to Algonquin back to O'Hare and finally back to Tulsa.
I skimmed over previous posts so I appoligise if my post is out of line. We need Marquis IMO! I remember what crunchy said about street clothes / clubhouse during the playoffs and there is nothing positive I can say about that but, I still believe we need Marquis. If we are relying on Dempster as a 3 starter we are FINISHED and I'm a glass is half full kind of person. Give em what they want but the O's can KEEP Payton and we REALLY need to keep Marquis.

Make this the 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 about Roberts and it's going to get done. I'm just happy their not throwing another Marmol type guy in the trade. Please Hendry get this deal done done and don't over pay. I've said tht over 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times

Yeah but STUDIO, The part about Ceda not being involved has no source. I think thats what guy meant. It'd be pretty freakin hilarious if he was doing that! Gaining more hits, selling more ad space. I'd do it just to watch the guys change their line-ups and trade offers over and over again while simultaneously debating who is wrong and why, as if they were some kind of legit authority on the subject. Rats keep pounding the feeder bar even though it hasn't spat out a pellet in months!

Ok, Goat and Devlsh. You're not saying, you're just saying...I gotcha.

I'm back, I'm drunk, and apparently, I'm a f$&*ing rat. Whatever. What the hell happened. Everything was going so well. At least now we can keep speculating (I gotta admit...it's fun; keeps me coming back, even if Devlsh types knock us for rolling off...what was it? 32K words?...for every Roberts update. Honestly, Devlsh and the rest can eat it; I love me some rumors, especially when they have to do with my team. Since I know we're pretty much done after Roberts, I'm milking this thang for all it's worth. A month from now I'll be writing dispassionately about some deal involving some guy on the Giants who's been playing since my junk dropped and an eighth rate Blue Jays prospect, so I hope you'll forgive me if I devote a little time to these posts; even if Dierkes is f'ing with us like a bunch of rats in a maze (speaking of rodents). I can't decide whether I'm glad that Ceda hasn't been included- allowing Colvin to be part of the deal- or just disappointed that this thing is going to drag on because the Ceda rumor was false. I really thought that would've been a cool move by Hendry...even if I am an O's fan; it felt like I was privy to some back-office manipulation. Now I just feel like Dierkes' monkey; and that kid is, like, 12. I don't want to be a 12 year old's monkey. Did I mention I'm drunk!