Roberts-Cubs Deal Off The Table

How 'bout these:

O's drop another!
Well, what were we expecting?
We signed Steve Traschel.

OR

F*%#%ing Steve Traschel!
Why the hell did we sign him?
First pick in the draft.

Nice job Milehigh. Either those were really entertaining or this damn drink is stronger than I expected!

Can You Believe this

Macphail Wanted More for

roberts the the twins got
for johan santana

DeaconD:"CubsFan Can You Believe this Macphail Wanted More for roberts the the twins got for johan santana."
I know thats how it seems but I don't believe it's true. I think McP would have accepted the deal if he had the POWER to do so. Obviously he didn't.

Mile is gonna be pissed when he hears this...and he will probably tell us that WGN is a Chicago source...

I said my peace at the top of this thread and was done with the Roberts saga. But MacPhail...oh gee, I'm shocked and in disbelief. I Did not want to go down Andy's little road. What got me restarted on him was when I heard Stone yesterday. He reminded me of '95 when the Cubs were toast. Andy said they (Cubs) had the money and could have done something, but underestimated the market. It just got me going on Andy yet again. How does anyone see him and Angelos lasting? Andy is a survivor, I'll give him that. Along with his last name that baseball people like Selig get all giddy over. O's fans wanted more. It appears Ceda was not 'untouchable'. While both sides will try to claim they gave it their best shot. Hendry has been known to be a 'straight shooter'. He even has said when he was wrong in the past. Like in 2006 when he said he had a bad year in 2005 as a GM. Which he did. Remember sending DuBois out in LF opening day? Anyone could see he was not a MLB starter. I'm blaming Andy for tying up Jim's hands on that one, too. Even if he didn't, just because he has so many other times. That's why you see a difference in the short time since Andy is gone. This is only Jim's second offseason or 1 1/2 yrs as THE REAL GM. I hope he gets a new 2 yr. deal to see what he can do. If the new owners keep him around, too. As for Andy, he likes to hear himself speak and has a huge ego. Also has his nose up in the clouds from what I am told by those who worked around him in Chicago. Him and Lynch made a good pair for each other.

I posted this back when the 'impasse' thread was up. Those who are upset the Cubs did not make this deal make me wonder. It's mostly non Cub fans or Cub bashers. Why? Because they give you reasons on why the Cubs have to do this and will be the same ones posted that we overpayed. They just want Hendry to drain the farm on this one. Didn't Andy say several teams were in on Roberts? Where are they? Let them pony up and see if their is a match. That is, if Angelos is serious about letting his little birdie fly. Maybe this gut is crazy enough to hold on to Roberts for picks. That would be a shame for O's fans, Roberts and the organization.

INOK, don’t apologize for your earlier post. It was hilarious. I wish I would have thought of that analogy. It was perfect. It made me laugh out loud.
By the way, here’s an interesting, related tidbit from the Sun-Times.
“The Cubs have made multiplayer offers but privately say they're not sure what the Orioles want for Roberts.”
How do you not know after 3 ½ months what the other team wants? If that doesn’t speak volumes as to how McPhail was negotiating in bad faith, I don’t know what does. 3 ½ months and they never told the Cubs what they really wanted? Like Aduncaroo says, whether you like Hendry or not, he’s a straight shooter. If McPhail didn’t intend to trade Roberts to begin with then he should have been honest about it. But the repercussions are clear. If McPhail had stated that Roberts was off limits, then the whispers about Angelos and the mancrush – and thus who’s REALLY in charge would have resurfaced. So he sends scouts out and publicly says he has permission to trade Roberts…but at no point does he ever tell Hendry what he wants in exchange? Then he immediately goes to the press and says the Cubs did not offer enough? Something stinks here. And if other teams catch wind of it, you're right INOK, maybe no one will seriously deal with him in the future when he needs to make another deal.

Ooops, sorry Studio! I think I said Aduncaroo. I meant to give YOU props on that "straight shooter" description of Hendry, I think it's a good one.

I need to preview more. Too many of my posts have typos. If I preview, sometimes I get booted and have to log in again. Anyway...

I have the same read on this situation, studio. I think if McPhail (or Angelos?) doesn't change the approach here, the Orioles will be looking at draft picks in two years as compensation for their all-star second baseman.

'Mile is gonna be pissed when he hears this...and he will probably tell us that WGN is a Chicago source...'

LOL- you know me too well, adun. In fact, all of the reports quoted here have been Chicago-based. I'm particularly wary of anything out of the Trib, considering how closely they've been connected to the Cubs in the past.

crunchy- I'm really bored with the way you twist the truth. How you can say that those railing about this non-trade were non-Cubs fans is simply untrue. In fact, this thread has probably been 80% Cubs fans! Just straight up lies. And it has been you and your little crew of single-minded acolytes that have been bitching and whining this whole time. It doesn't make it any less so just because you preface with 'I'm glad the deal fell through...' There's always that 'but' and then you or someone drawn to the flame of your fiery rhetoric goes off on McPhail or says some dumb s*$# about how the O's are half *ss rebuilding (umm- didn't we just trade two of our best players for 10 young players/prospects?) or just sniffs up Hendry's back side.

Deacon- the O's wanted more than the Twins got for Johan?! What are you on? How do you figure that Gallagher, Veal, and Cedeno comes close?

Why is it that any time things are going good and everyone's having a good time, SOMEONE has to come along and instigate s#@*; bashing McPhail and Angelos and the O's. 'They'll be sorry...and you're little dog too...'
Whatever, man. I'm so glad Hendry is insulated from blame. Unbelievable. You'd think that there was only one side to this deal. It takes two to tango and to think that it was ALL McPhail/Angelos' fault is downright naive. This isn't a black and white world; life is never that simple. Furthermore, if you really don't care about not getting Roberts and think it's no big thing, STOP TALKING ABOUT IT! Why do you care about OUR GM? It's over. Move on.

But no...baseless speculation, character assassination...you just can't get enough. Here's a friggin haiku:

Transparent crunchy
Says he does not want BRob
Then why does he cry?

mile, based on the new information, it isn't about the players at all. It's about whether or not McPhail intended to make a deal at all. He never told the Cubs who he wanted. It brings up the question as to whether or not he intended to deal Roberts! That's significant. Do you not find that odd? Does that not strike you as someone not negotiating in good faith? And do you not wonder WHY (if this is true) he never really intended to make a trade? Is it Angelos? Is McPhail going through the motions to save face and give the appearance that he's in control? Was he afraid that if he asked for certain players, the Cubs might say "yes"...then what would he tell Angelos?? It isn't about the players involved at all. It's about whether McPhail ever really intended to deal Roberts. Read through the posts again. I don't think you interpreted it the way it was intended.

I also think that I should get some royalties if there is a 'Kick Angelos in the nads' day at Wrigley. Or at least tickets. This could be huge...

Oh, and Cub4Life-

LOL, but if you're going after Roberts, I gotta hit you back with:

What's the Cubs offer?
Gallagher, Veal, Cedeno?!
Really? That's it? NO!

Sorry, had to do it...

Mile, the source was mentioned in the first post. The source was unidentified but involved in the negotiations. I don't know if he represents the Cubs, the Orioles or if it's ndano's lawyer friend or what...but it was reported by Dave Kaplan of WGN. Now, at no point did anyone assume it to be true, we just made speculations IF it was true. And if it's true that there was no intention of trading Roberts then it would have interesting implications and reprecussions...But nowhere did anyone refer to it as fact. Take it easy, man.

ROBERTS trade value sould be more then Tedeja's was.Maybe it was luck what MCFAIL recieved for Tedeja.I know Patton is done for the yr but Srafate and Scott are looking good.The Cub's have no prospect that grabs you or the real need for the O's,The O's already have a decent amount of young quality arms.I'm looking forward to other offers from other teams for Roberts.Orioles and the Cub's don't match up well either.I rather have two needs, then four to five average at best prospects that are not needs.

“mile, based on the new information, it isn't about the players at all. It's about whether or not McPhail intended to make a deal at all.”

So youre saying that McPhail had all his scouts running around following the Cubs all preseason because he wanted to make it look like he would deal someone he had no intention of ever moving? What would be the point of that? Such a theory seems to be stretching it a bit in my mind…

“I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I don't think it's asking too much to hold off on the accusations until AFTER we've heard the whole (or even the half) story.”

…That’s what I agree with…

"Perhaps you don't remember but the Cubs had a winning record when Derek Lee got hurt. Then they went something like 19-49 while he was out (and he was less than 100% when he got back) and were effectively dead in the water. Remember too that the Cardinals won the division with 83 wins so if Hendry had effectively plugged the hole, the Cubs could have very easily won the NL Central. And deprived the Cardinals of a World Championship..."

This is wrong in about 1000 ways. Look at the production the cubs got from first base that year...its actually very good. The difference between Nevin and Even Pujols was probably about what, 4 games maybe? So lets double that and say 8. 8 games gives them a total of 74 wins, still a whopping 9(!) behind St. Louis. The Cubs simply were NOT going to win anything that year, and its not really very hard to figure out. I would rather them have gotten the best hitter in the entire draft because Hendry knew when to fold his cards, then try and compete with a team that MIGHT have been able to win 75 games and still trail the Cards by almost 10 games. They could have picked up ARod that year and it wouldn't have won the division...its plain and simple.

I actually looked at what Nevin did in his time with the Cubs. 67 games, 179 at bats, 12 home runs...

Not to mention he hit:

.274/.335/.497/.832

Derrek Lee's carreer numbers up to that point were around

.276/.350/.490./.840

Do you really believe that Hendry did a bad job in getting somebody on the fly to replace Derrek Lee that year? It was because the team was bad in the first place. Derrek Lee being healthy doesn't make an 18 game difference. The best players in baseball make around 9 games of difference over a replacement player, and Nevin hit very similar to what Lee did, maybe Lee might have given a couple of games better...at the most.

Again, you are just flat out wrong about that season dude. Any smart Cubs fan would be glad that instead of trading the farm for someone to "replace" Lee, they got Nevin for next to nothing who did a great job filling in for Lee. Then, we end up getting the best hitter in the draft that year, Josh Vitters, who is a blue chip prospect. The evidence is overwhelming against your thoery here.

"When somebody “scouts” for almost 4 months and never makes an offer, I’ve got every right to feel a little suspicious…don’t I?"

You most certainly do, but it helps if your theory is plausible if you decide to post it on a website with the intent to paint McPhail/Angelos as some major problem just up to somekind of shenanigans. Scouting for 4 months would lead most to think they either didn’t like what they saw or were limited to pieces they didn’t care for when put in context with all the “untouchables” they were presented. To say they scouted for 4 months because they were never going to make a deal in the first place and it was all just a parade to unknown reasoning ~ well, its just not very plausible in most peoples minds I cant imagine. Feel that way if ya like, but when you post it, someone will probably question it…

It doesn't have to do with who I like or don't like. It has to do with something that doesn't feel kosher. If I had heard that after 4 months that Hendry hadn't made it clear who he was ready to give up for Roberts, I would have doubted his sincerity as well. Despite your pretensions to the contrary, you don't know me that well ...I'm an equal opportunity basher and praiser. I've bashed Hendry in the past...mostly for being disorganized in the player development portion of the Cubs farm system. And I praised McPhail for getting a good return on the Bedard deal. But if you want to think of me as being black and white on the issues, that's fine. That's your perogative, I guess. That being said, it was McPhail's behavior that was odd and it fits with his past behavior as a Cubs GM. I trust people's past patterns more than I do their words, especially from someone who is as adept at managing his image as McPhail is. I'm just giving my read on the situation. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. It doesn't bother me one way or the other. If you want to dispute it, I'm all ears if you have a sound argument. If you'd rather engage in personal attacks...then I won't bother to respond. Sound fair?

By the way, you can not factor in that Angelos CLAIMED he was giving McPhail full control of the team dealings. Most every ball player comes into spring training CLAIMING they are in the best shape of their lives. I have yet heard you factor in the players claim to any of your stats. Why are you so quick to factor in Angelos claim and not the players?

Dark, it's certainly up to question. I'm not presenting it as fact but as something of an oddity on McPhail's part...I don't see ANY excuse why you can't even tell the other GM what you want -- how are you supposed to negotiate if you have no idea what the other team's parameters are? I've been involved in protracted negotiations myself but not once did I not know what the other party wanted. That's bizarre. It's unheard of. Now couple that odd "negotiation" stance with his history of being unable to complete deals with the Cubs-- then add Angelos mancrush on Roberts and history of meddling. Well it doesn't add up to a tandem that is eager to make a deal. Now you and mile have a low esteem for Cub prospects...but others, Jon Heyman of SI and Jim Callis of BA for example, thought the rumored offer was more than fair. I have not heard one source outside of you and some Baltimore fans that thought the Cubs were trying to short-change the Orioles. I didn't read it from one national figure that I consider impartial. Most of the national media thought the deal was going to get done -- would they think that if the Cubs were offering below market value? The idea that the Cubs offered chump change for Roberts is the one that seems implausible to me. Assume for a moment that the Cubs made an offer that was "above and beyond market value" - this is not an unreasonable assumption and it is the opinion of at least one source within the negotiations. If you turn down a deal where you would be receiving more than perceived market value then, at best, it indicates an uneasiness about parting with the commodity. At worst, it indicates that there was no serious intention to make a deal in the first place. And with Angelos and his penchant for meddling looming in the background, it isn't really a stretch to suspect the reason behind the uneasiness or unwillingness to pull the trigger -- particularly when it involves who everyone knows is his favorite player.

Crunchy, on one of my previous posts i was wondering out loud why this whole thing has lasted this long. You my friend HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!! His ego would take a MAJOR HIT if the Cubs were to win the series. He's is the kind of guy that would do something like that IMHO. He basically handcuffed the Cubs during the offseason waiting around for this trade to happen.

Crunchy,

But do you really believe that McPhail never told Hendry who he wants? If that was the case, then why did we have reports that the O’s were asking for Pie + 2 pitchers so early on? Or how do we know that so many players are off limits? To me it seems like many players who were wanted were talked about over the months and when it got down towards the end McPhail was probably with a list of like 5 guys he could reasonably pick from and didn’t like his choices. He had a set price in mind (Pie + 2 Pitchers), he was coming down from that to begin with, he was told multiple guys he asked about were off-limits, and he was supposed to be the one holding the cards. In the end, if he is left with little to no options left really; well walking away without a formal proposal at the last minute doesn’t seem unreasonable at all.

Or lets put it this way, if you were going to sell me 10 baseball cards for $20 and every card I started to put in the pile you pulled back; well I would probably just give up after a while and walk away if my choice got down to cards I wasn’t thrilled about to begin with.

It really doesn’t matter though, I just don’t think its that plausible to expect a team to spend that much money, time and effort on something they were never planning on doing in the first place. It cant be a publicity ploy since it would only lead to negative publicity. It cant be a bargaining ploy if they never planned on making a deal. I just cant see a single reason to ever contemplate doing such a thing really, and that puts the theory on shaky ground in my eyes…

Dark, the distinction here is that all of us wanted Roberts, many of us were willing to pay above market value -- but most of us did not want Roberts at ANY cost. There comes a point where you draw the line. There comes a point where it isn't practical to give up 5 good players -- all of which provide depth and insurance for the immediate future -- and/or trading chips for a deal in case the Cubs sustain a major injury. The concept is simple. We wanted Roberts...but we didn't want Roberts at any cost. When the cost seemed to get too high in our estimation, then YES, we ARE happy the deal didn't go through. I don't understand how that's inconsistent at all.

Those reports of dealing Pie or whoever were either speculation by the media or leaks to the media. But deals aren't made through the media. The Cubs have said privately that they left the table never knowing what McPhail really wanted.

And Dark, really, you took some liberties there with assuming that McPhail made that offer directly to the Cubs (and not the media, his favorite place to do business) and then the Cubs started pulling players back. Where exactly did that come from? That is purely your own invention. I think that's the least plausible scenario of all -- it's not supported by anything but your own imagination. The McPhail story I quoted came from WGN, a source within the negotiations as well as club officials...it wasn't my invention. The implications of that story were deductions on my point...but at least it had a foundation.

And really, scouts are watching games in Arizona all the time...does it break the bank to send a few to Ho Ho Kam every now and then? And we only heard of scouts going to Mesa toward the end of spring training anyway? The Cubs had scouts watching the Nationals, Tigers, Orioles, Rangers, Red Sox, White Sox...etc. Teams send scouts out all the time and deals don't happen...and it's very likely the Cubs had little intention of making a deal with many of those teams anyway...you scout teams just in case. The Cubs had 48 scouts at the game to watch Marquis pitch...yet they really didn't get an offer. It happens all the time. The difference is the Cubs weren't in active "negotiations" with those teams. It's not like I haven't considered your point of view... that the Orioles were actually sincerely attempting to make a deal -- I assumed that for months...now I'm not so sure.

Ok, this just fell off the front page so I’m not sure if you’ll catch it but if you are like me you probably had it open in a window all night and possibly refreshing it today… Anyway, to answer these things:

“And Dark, really, you took some liberties there with assuming that McPhail made that offer directly to the Cubs (and not the media, his favorite place to do business) and then the Cubs started pulling players back. Where exactly did that come from? That is purely your own invention… … The McPhail story I quoted came from WGN, a source within the negotiations as well as club officials...it wasn't my invention. The implications of that story were deductions on my point...but at least it had a foundation”

Feb 26th:
“Today, Gordon Wittenmyer of the Chicago Sun-Times checks in with the latest… …He says the Orioles are requesting Ronny Cedeno, Sean Gallagher, and two more top youngsters.”

Feb 16th:
“According to Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune, the Orioles asked the Cubs for 21 year-old righty Jose Ceda as part of a Brian Roberts deal at some point this winter. However, Ceda is untouchable for Jim Hendry”

Now, Tim seems to have dumped some older stories off the Player Search links, and I’m not going to spend time trying to find all the reports stating what the O’s asked for. Those two (which both came from Chicago papers) should be enough anyway to atleast show that I didn’t exactly “take liberties”, and it wasn’t “purely (my) own invention”.

Again, it's not unusual for McPhail to leak offers to the media...but it doesn't mean he offered it to the Cubs. And even if he did, in fact, request 2 "young players", that's still not being SPECIFIC about who he wants. That would still fit with what the Cubs said -- that they walked away never really knowing who McPhail wanted in return.

Dark, I really think you know your baseball, but I also think your posts are much better when you're not on your anti-Cub agenda. It skews your perspective. McPhail's trading history as a GM (look it up, it's a boring read), his breakup with the Cubs and Angelos history as a meddler (as well as his well known googly eyes for Roberts) makes it a logical assumption that neither had much initiative to make a deal regardless of who the Cub offered. But that's all I'm really going to say on the subject. If I start hearing rumors that the Orioles are continuing efforts to rebuild and trade Roberts, then I'll think maybe they are serious. But I haven't so far.

Not playing "make believe" so much as making a half-hearted effort to trade Roberts. Like I said, if I start hearing rumors where they are actively trying to trade Roberts and thus seriously commit to rebuilding...then I may change my mind about it. Right now I'm not convinced they were very eager to trade him at all. I get the feeling they had the same lackluster attitude about making a deal as I do when my wife makes me go to the opera.

INOK-

I found it interesting that you referenced me when bashing McPhail.

'Roberts is pissed because he knows he has been used as a pawn, and I would of thought mile would take Roberts side.'

I'm not taking any side other than that of the truth or my perception of the truth.

It's really interesting how different people interpret things...differently. For instance, I read the same quotes from Roberts (read the whole article in the Sun) and didn't make that connection AT ALL. I think that it would be understandable for Roberts to be upset about this whole debacle- and from what I've read, he is a bit miffed- but I really didn't interpret his frustration as being directed at McPhail in any way. Where are you getting that? I thought those comments were pretty ambiguous; exasperation- maybe- but proof that Roberts 'hates McPhail'? Like I said...it's interesting how we read things differently.

The theory that McPhail (or his organ grinder, Angelos)never wanted to trade Roberts seems to me to stretch credulity. It strikes me as just a bit too conspiracy theory-ish. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

'Those reports of dealing Pie or whoever were either speculation by the media or leaks to the media. But deals aren't made through the media. The Cubs have said privately that they left the table never knowing what McPhail really wanted.'

Crunchy- this statement typifies the problem with your reasoning. You're saying that we can't trust the reports stating who the O's asked for because of media manipulation, but then support your position by quoting...the media!

I'll always respect your opinion so long as you acknowledge that it IS opinion. That said, you're basing this grand conspiracy theory on one mention from a Chicago media outlet saying that the Cubs didn't know what the O's wanted. You're saying that McPhail is playing games through the media, but blindly follow the Cubs' own bit of media manipulation like it's gospel. I don't know, dude, I just think it's all a bit of a stretch.

Crunchy and INOK- you both seem like intelligent people, so I won't insult your respective intellects. You've heard of Occam's Razor, I'm sure... To paraphrase, the simplest solution is usually the right one. What's more likely?

A) The Orioles weren't satisfied with what the Cubs were offering and the Cubs weren't willing to offer more (as you, crunchy, would say- they reached their 'line' and wouldn't cross it).

B) McPhail, angry and bitter after being fired, decides to string the Cubs along in order to prevent his former employer from acquiring a player who might improve their odds of making a postseason run.

C) Angelos, despite 10 straight losing seasons (and something like 5 GMs) decides to remain a meddlesome boor, go back on his promise to let McPhail- architect of a World Series winning club in Minnesota (as well as the man attributed with getting the Cubs within a Steve Bartman dumbass move of the Series) - run the team his way (which somehow doesn't bother McPhail, despite his having said he'd quit if Angelos meddled) and, for the sake of keeping his man-crush second baseman, gets his monkey boy GM to act purposely vague in negotiations...which started because he wanted to boost his beloved ball player's ego.

I think you're making this too complicated.

Mile...Hey, I'm not making a grand conspiracy here. It's like I said earlier about going to the opera with my wife. I'll resign myself to going...but if I have an excuse not to go, I won't. I don't think the Orioles were that motivated to make a trade. There are still reasons not to trade Roberts...some are financially related-- He has a couple of years left on his contract, he doesn't make a lot of money. Some are baseball related -- Roberts is still a good guy to have on a rebuilding team. And the O's can hang on to him until a team is in a more dire situation than the Cubs and possibly get a better deal. And there are dubious reasons...Angelos would rather not trade him for personal reasons. So I don't think they went into this thinking, "We're going to trade Roberts if we can get a good deal." I think they went into this with "Well, we don't want to really trade Roberts, but we'll listen and if we get a ridiculous offer, then we'll do it." Well, Hendry doesn't make ridiculous offers. For the most part he's been pretty responsible. I just don't think the O's were motivated. Like me and the opera, the Orioles might have gone ahead with it...but I believe they were looking for reasons NOT to do it.

Now the baseball card analogy does NOT fit Occam's razor at all. It's actually too complex and has too many variables. We have to assume that both teams traded offers. Then we have to assume that the Cubs agreed to deal certain players. Then we assume that the Orioles were interested enough to make a deal. Then we have to assume, for some odd reason, that they changed their minds and started pulling those players back. Too many assumptions...can't buy that reasoning.

The simplest explanation is that there were two teams didn't NEED to make a deal...so the impetus to get it done at all costs just wasn't there. It doesn't get simpler than that, does it?