Yankees-Sabathia Chatter

"Contrary to what dark says, Vitters has value, however it IS diminished"

Huh? You say the same thing I say and say its contrary to me? Okay…

Anyway, what I am saying is what you are saying and including the part that his value is diminished even more to the Indians. What all these fantasy proposal threads/posts have in common is that they dont even begin to think of what the other team would want. Cleveland doesn’t draft HSers with high picks, so don’t you thinks its probably unlikely they turn around and assign a bunch of trade-value to a guy who can still only be considered that? Cleveland wants to build for their window (which currently sits between now and about 2010) ~ Vitters is 18 and has yet to really even begin a pro career. The Indians desire a ML-Ready 3B, we went over the "ML-Ready" part, but Vitters also is looking unlikely to stay at 3rd. If he doesn’t stay at third, and ends up a 1B/DH type then he is blocked by countless guys who are under control for years. Oh, and then there is the thing about him being hurt...

I mean, come on ~ I'm blown away that people can seriously sit there and act like Vitters would have a ton of value to the Tribe, and would be one of the centerpieces of a deal...

Oh, and the only reason anyone (which was actually ForLife) said Vitters has no value is because he’s on the DL. You cant trade a guy who is on the DL, making his value non-existent.

Another option from Phillies....Victorino has nothing more than 10 HR power, but plays plus defense in right with a plus arm and 50 SB speed. Maybe a Victorino/Cardenas package plus a mid level part could appeal to CLE, since Golston is close in center and Werth is showing signs of being an everyday-caliber CF this year

Wow, is this matchu guy trying to leapfrog Guru for the biggest dumba$$ in the universe or something? You call out Sabathia (who has no injury history) for being to fat and and an obvious future injury, then you advocate trading the same guys away for Rich Harden and Huston Street aka, Mr Softy and Mr Potato Head. mphm.

V, Carlos Gomez is more of a corner outfielder then a centerfielder? This is based on what logic? Gomez is a sick CF, he has range for days and a cannon for an arm. His growing pains and low OBP really stem from nothing accept the fact that he is 22 years old and making his ML debut.

By the way, V, yeah, the Mets tried to buy a WS this year, and where did it get them, you are right. But what about the Yankees. They are sitting in 4th place in their division, also sitting right around .500, so who the ef are you to criticize anybody else? The Yankees have been doing it for years, with no success, and they didnt do it this year, and they still are in absolutely no better shape then the Mets. Infact, the Yankees are in much, much worse shape then the Mets seeing as how the NL East cannot even compare to the AL East, and the Mets are chasing teams in Florida (who will be extremely lucky to win 80 games this year), and Philly (who is torrid right now but will cool down because they only have 1 reliable pitcher). Good luck chasing the Bosox and Rays all year.

"By the way, V, yeah, the Mets tried to buy a WS this year, and where did it get them, you are right. But what about the Yankees. They are sitting in 4th place in their division, also sitting right around .500, so who the ef are you to criticize anybody else? The Yankees have been doing it for years, with no success, and they didnt do it this year, and they still are in absolutely no better shape then the Mets. Infact, the Yankees are in much, much worse shape then the Mets seeing as how the NL East cannot even compare to the AL East, and the Mets are chasing teams in Florida (who will be extremely lucky to win 80 games this year), and Philly (who is torrid right now but will cool down because they only have 1 reliable pitcher). Good luck chasing the Bosox and Rays all year."

Um, d00d? I wasn't criticizing. I was pointing out that betting the farm for a chance at the World Series is stupid. Smart front offices don't do it.

The Yankees (and Red Sox) have top 5-10 farm systems now. You don't wreck that by overpaying for rentals.

Lay off the spaz.

V, that was one of the laziest posts I have ever seen. You post your little "analysis" of the MEts prospects that went to Minnesota to try to prove what the Yankees should pay, and in doing this you absolutely incorrectly analyze Gomez, and you dont even say anythin about the other 3 besides "Kennedy is better".

Kennedy is garbage, everybody tried to tell everybody else this last year, he is a fringe back of the rotation starter who does have some upside. So is Humber, only with much more upside the Kennedy. Mulvey is a safe back of the rotation guy with no much of a ceiling, but he could be a decent starter. Or not. Guerra is the x factor of the entire group, which you dont seem to understand at all. He is 18 or 19 years old, throws in the mid- upper 90's and throws a changeup that scouts love. I have heard comparisons to King Felix. So do us all a favor and stop pretending you are Keith Law and jus continue on being the homer that we know you are.

"Hughes OR Cano would likely have to be included. From there, I'd guess AJax or Tabata (Tabata's the better fit, but he's struggled mightily this year), Horne, and either Angelini or Montero."

If you seriously think the Indians are going to get anything REMOTELY CLOSE to that package, you gotta be kidding me.

Seriously.

There isn't a -single player- in the majors worth that package.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B0%5D=2008&league_filter%5B0%5D=All&pos_filter%5B0%5D=8&Submit=Submit&orderBy=fPct&direction=DESC&page=1

Even better.

Yes, he can fly. But he isn't an amazing fielder. Sure, he could develop into one, but if he puts on some bulk (and he -better- if he's going to be more Grady Sizemore than Juan Pierre), he's going to slow down.

Carlos Gomez is growing into the next Carlos Beltran with more speed rather than Juan Pierre. So yes

note: I don't think Gomez will hit 35-40 home runs but their tools are similar and Gomez will have the higher average.

“Did anybody say that Vitters would be a centerpiece to a CC deal? I didn't, I know that. And Dark, be realistic, Vitters is working out and hitting right now. He could come off the DL at any time and be completely tradable, which means the whole "he is hurt and on the DL so he has no trade value" doesn't really pan out.”

First ~ apparently you struggle with the word “IS”. You also apparently struggle with the fact that your beef with that being the case actually doesn’t lie with me. I mean, all day yesterday you argued that to me when I was even the one to say it ~ but whatever…
Second ~ when someone puts him first in the listing of names included in the package it makes it look like it kinda centers around him. Or when people (like yourself) proclaim him to be some amazing prospect who was taken 3rd in the draft or whatever, then one can only assume they are talking like he would have to be a centerpiece. But whatever…
Third ~ who knows why you are even arguing anyway, I don’t think you never even mentioned Vitters in a proposal, did you? But whatever…

“To me, Cleveland wants a SP that can immediately fit into the rotation”
…You missed the “top-of-rotation-type” that should be included with that SP. Gallagher doesn’t fit that in almost everyones eyes, but he’s a solid enough guy to include if the rest of the package is strong enough. There in lies the problem though, doesn’t it?

“a good 2nd base prospect that can play next year at the latest”
…Wanted to point out that you said “good 2B prospect” and mistakenly mentioned Patterson and Cedeno. Besides, they don’t want a 2B prospect ~ that’s what Cabrera, Barfield and Josh Rodriguez are. They want plus hitting 3B prospects that are close to majors (or maybe SS with Peralta moving over). Would they take a stud 2B prospect? Yeah, they can move guys around ~ but that isnt being offered…

IF the Cubs were to make a package, they would have to give a whole lot of quantity to overcome the lack of quality, and include what quality they have. I just cant see it happening ~ esp with a club that was doing everything they could to lowball on the last player they really wanted to add to their club…

"esp with a club that was doing everything they could to lowball on the last player they really wanted to add to their club…"

Low ball? Really? The rumored deal that the Cubs were offering is something that nearly every cub fan is THRILLED they didn't end up giving up. There was no lowballing going on...Hendry just made a smart decision when McFail wouldn't take fair value. To say the Cubs lowballed for Roberts is completely ignorant of what really happened...

I just figure with a player of his magnitude, if he and the Indians were both committed to working something out and were having discussions towards a deal, we'd be hearing reports of such, like we did with Carlos Zambrano.

Plus in darkstar's above post he left re-signing Sabathia after the season open as a legitimate option, citing that "he doesn't want to leave." Well, I don't see that as a really plausible option. I may be wrong. But if not, it would have to be a big factor into a decision to trade him (along with obviously the potential comp picks).

What I meant to say is, since we aren't hearing that he's close to an in-season extension, and I don't see an after season, open market extension for CLE as plausible, that sort of narrows the options for Shapiro: trade or two comp picks. With several potentially interested teams, I think that tips the scales towards trade

darkstar I hear you about his attitude. he's said all the right things. However, what CC says publicly can't really be taken completely at face value UNLESS you think he's willing to leave a lot of money on the table to come back to CLE. If he is, then luck you as an Indians fan.

But if your ideas are all true and player and organization could come to common ground, I'd have to figure it would happen during this season, to take away the potential for an explosive FA offer for the clear cut top pitcher available.

I infer from your post that you don't think CLE would be willing to give the top offer in both years and money on Sabathia. To that I ask, who is the last young star baseball player, yet to cash their first mega contract paycheck, to leave both years and money on the table in FA?

Is there anyone else out there that just ignores what darkstar says. I dont even read his posts. When he is in the room make sure you dont have you own opinion cuz it will be completely wrong.

“darkstar I hear you about his attitude. he's said all the right things. However, what CC says publicly can't really be taken completely at face value UNLESS you think he's willing to leave a lot of money on the table to come back to CLE. If he is, then luck you as an Indians fan.”

…See, and I would agree 100% if it was a casual mention as though it’s a PR move ~ his saying it every single time he opens his mouth though…

“But if your ideas are all true and player and organization could come to common ground, I'd have to figure it would happen during this season, to take away the potential for an explosive FA offer for the clear cut top pitcher available.”

…Neither side wants to negotiate during the season ~ and we have no clue if they have done so. Besides, and “explosive FA offer” doesn’t always land its man, and its unknown if anyone will even do such a thing anyway. The Cubs wont, the ChiSox and Mets cant afford it, the Yanks didn’t want to go the years to Santana and the BoSox don’t make sense as a destination for that kind of cash. The Dodgers might, but they have bad contracts already and might be fearful of landing another. SF cant, Oakland wont, ANA makes little sense… Think about it, the offers might not be what people expect. All f it coupled together = a question mark…

“We know that the offer consisted of Gallagher, Cedeno, and at least one other player. That alone shows that it wasn't a "lowball" offer. To say the Cubs lowballed them is just plain unfactual and wrong, otherwise known as "ignorant of truth"...”

…Baltimore says “Pie (or Hill) + Gallagher + Pitching Prospect” and Chicago responds with “Gallagher + Cedeno + other” and its not lowballing? Such a proclamation seems "ignorant of truth"...

Adun, again ~ WTF do you want? Troll all you like, it doesnt mean a damn thing... The Cubs tried to lowball the O's; now I suguest you attempt to get over it...

"Hughes OR Cano would likely have to be included. From there, I'd guess AJax or Tabata (Tabata's the better fit, but he's struggled mightily this year), Horne, and either Angelini or Montero. If that sounds like a lot...it is"

The Yankees wouldn't even be considering Sabathia if Cleveland asked for this. As V said, there isn't a single player in the league the Yanks would make this trade for. Teams just don't trade prospects like they used to.

"“Well, considering that Cleveland's outfield, other than Sizemore, consists of Franklin Gutierrez, David Dellucci, Ben Francisco and Shin-Soo Choo, I think Melky will fit into a starting spot nicely, especially since he's younger than any of them.”

You just mentioned 3 CFers, all three of which have provided better results at the plate as well. Melky might be young, and you might even think he is slightly better than that group ~ but even if that were true, what would be the point of assigning trade value to him? It would roughly equate to the Yankees trading anything of value for Sexson and releasing Giambi ~ no noticeable positional improvement (to probable regression in production), loss of prospects (by exclusion of others in the CC scenario) and the loss of a guy who has so far proven himself to be better (one of those 4 would need to be released if Melky was added)…

…Like I said earlier ~ silly…"

I don't think it's silly at all. You are improving your team by adding a better, younger player. Melky has a higher average than all of those guys except Francisco (although in more at-bats) and more homers than any one of those guys but Dellucci (they both have 7) AND he's younger AND he's a better defensive player than any of them... please tell me how he doesn't help you? Do you really think Dellucci will be around next year? Can't you spin one of those other guys into some bullpen help or another prospect? Melky isn't a premier outfielder... I realize that, but he's established himself as a solid ML starter... Dellucci is and always has been a role player and none of those other guys are guaranteed ML players.

"http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B0%5D=2008&league_filter%5B0%5D=All&pos_filter%5B0%5D=8&Submit=Submit&orderBy=fPct&direction=DESC&page=1"

You seriously just gave me fielding percentage and then acted as if you just made your case? Remind me next time we debate something that you dont have enough intelligence for me to waste time trying to prove anything to you.

“please tell me how he doesn't help you?”

How does it make sense to trade for someone you cant obviously use and stands a strong possibility of landing in the minors? Cabrera doesn’t help because he would be one of 4 guys competing for 2 OF spots while seemingly having the least talent of the bunch. Also, Cabrera does not have the best D out of all of them, but that’s moot anyway since he would be playing LF not Center. Plus, please don’t give me 2008 stats like everyone else has played a ton of games, talent wise the others are above him while providing better results so far. Could this change? Maybe… But you don’t trade your Ace for a “well, maybe end eventually ends up to be as good as or a little better than what we got”…

Lastly, I wouldn’t be bragging about Melky’s HR totals when they came over 250 PA, can be counted on one hand and match the amount of doubles + triples he has managed. The overall .385 SLG is just flat out pitiful, you have to admit that…

Oh and:
“I dont ignore Dark's posts, but I ignore yours on a lot of occasions”

…Hahaha, I just ignored it, and would have never known it was there if not for you pointing it out…

"For C.C. Sabathia I think the Cubs would give up
Murton
Patterson (Which could be a reason he's up to take Soriano spot.)
Hart and maybe someone else. Agree? Disagree?
P.S. Darkstar is the man"

I can't believe that post actually happened.

The Cubs simply didn't "lowball" them, and its fact. How long are you going to ignore that???

Murton? Cedeno? Patterson? Man, the Tribe would be better off with draft picks.

"How does it make sense to trade for someone you cant obviously use and stands a strong possibility of landing in the minors? Cabrera doesn’t help because he would be one of 4 guys competing for 2 OF spots while seemingly having the least talent of the bunch. Also, Cabrera does not have the best D out of all of them, but that’s moot anyway since he would be playing LF not Center. Plus, please don’t give me 2008 stats like everyone else has played a ton of games, talent wise the others are above him while providing better results so far. Could this change? Maybe… But you don’t trade your Ace for a “well, maybe end eventually ends up to be as good as or a little better than what we got”…

Yeah, Type-Key is horrible and oftentimes cuts things off or plays its games to where you lose the post… Sadly, almost all of us seem to deal with it…

Anyway, we know you think that Melky is somehow a better player. That still doesn’t really matter though, and I think you may not understand the complete situation.

Think of it this way. Lets say you have Austin Jackson, Ben Francisco, Franklin Gutierrez, Shin-Soo Choo and David Dellucci and I had Melky Cabrera.

In that scenario, would you trade your Jackson and Gutierrez for my Cabrera?

But that is not the case, it would not be 2 spots filled and 3 guys fighting for the other ~ it would be 5 guys fighting for 2 spots with one going to be DFAed at the end of it. (and trying to trade one is foolish, better to just take the better prospect than Melky to start and not have to make another deal) Anyway, Melky has in no way earned a guaranteed spot just by being young and playing in the majors to this point ~ and he may or may not win out the battle in the end. And lets just say he is somehow one of the 4 that is kept, he will be in a platoon with one of the others since he cant hit lefties. Right now, he is not playing better than any of the others though, so he would be #5 of the 5 and the most likely to get dumped. Not the type a team should be trading for…

Really, his Age is the only thing he has going for him, but its not even that much of a positive since his team-control is equal to shorter than the others. His lack of progress at the ML level and continually pitiful OBP and SLG (which both seem to be regressing yearly from his second year) are getting to the point where he is beginning to look like he is even a poor choice as a CF option for a bad team, let alone a corner guy for a contender. It seems that Yankee fans are the only people out there that think highly of Melky, everyone else sees a guy who hasn’t even been able to get close to LgAvg production at the plate in 4 years worth of trying ~ not someone you want on a corner spot… All of this is compounded greatly by the fact that the team needs power, the thing Melky is showing to be the worst at. His HR/AB rate is by far the worst of all the players we are talking about, his continual .390 (or lower) SLG is beyond pitiful from a corner spot ~ he just doesn’t fit…

And all of that is coupled with the fact that Cleveland doesn’t get a prospect they can really use in Melky’s place. It makes no sense, ‘guy you can really use’ or ‘guy that may or may not be on his way out the door as soon as you get him’ ~ choice makes itself…

Now, I understand that people in NY really want to get rid of him (despite somehow also claiming he is so good) ~ we saw that in the Santana proposals. But just like Minn in the Santana talks, Cleveland is not going to look at Melky and see real value. The Twins even had an actual need for a CFer and didn’t really want him; Cleveland has no use for him at all and certainly wouldn’t take him in place of another prospect they could actually use… If Cleveland felt that they really needed to get a better corner-OF type, they can sign one off the FA market ~ a 90-ish OPS+ guy who may or may-not be better than what you got which comes at the expense of another top-prospect is just not worth taking in return for an Ace…

Demanding Joba and Cano is not absurd, what is absurd is hearing all these names that won't amount to anything like Melky Cabrera, hell, he's a 4th outfielder on any team just about.

Cleveland isn't going to take junk just like Minnesota didn't take junk and that is why you are not getting CC. It's not absurd to ask for the best when you're getting a guy who is 28, the reigning CY Young and if he had any run support this year would be about 10-2.

So Yankee fans need to worry about overpaying guys like Jaret Wright and Carl Pavano and stop trying to pawn your crap off on every other team in baseball. It doesn't work anymore.

And any team that would acquire CC would be doing so contingent on an extension...so it wouldn't be a 4 month rental.

good idea, let's trade cano and hughes when their values are at all-time lows. this site is a great source of information.

and you can say that the trade Won't be a rental all you want. but what do you know? If CC doesn't agree to a contract, it is a rental. or it is no deal and he becomes a fa at the end of the year

At least you are admitting we had a reign, hater.

I would love to be a seller at the deadline with damon and abreu. but that might not sit well with most fans.

Neither the Yankees nor the Indians are out of it. but the indians are having injury problems which might weigh into a decision.

i worded it wierd, but i meant what you said. no one is giving up quality for a rental of CC. they'd (whichev team) want to sign him