White Sox Considering Dye Trade

"oh and personally, as a fielder, Beltran dogs it wayy too much. Yes when he tries he can reach any ball, but I could name countless plays he could have and should have reached but didn't. Last year in a key game with the Phils Rollins had a triple on a ball that Beltran should have had but misplayed. He did it again this year. Yes he's very good and good offensively but he's not the best. obviously i'm a little biased though."

I disagree, and the metrics do as well. Beltran has deserved gold gloves each of the last three years. I understand where you're coming from, but its more that he makes his routes look effortless than he "dogs it". Its just his running style, but he still covers more ground than anyone I've seen in the NL, aside from MAYBE Mike Cameron, although he may have lost a quarter step by now.

Braunholio,

Just because the Nats traded for Willingham doesn't mean he is unavailable. Jim "Leatherpants" Bowden is NOT a good GM. He likes tools guys, guys with bad reps and ex-Reds players. Josh WIllingham is none of those things. That is why there are STILL rumors out there that Bowden is looking at Manny R and Adam Dunn even though he already HAS a glut of Outfielders.

Loo, Grumpy Bob Ca$htellini keeps saying the same thing; the REds are planning on becoming winners. He said it when he bought the team in 2006 and he said it when he fired Krivsky.

The problem is, with the Reds in the position they are in it is going to be HARD to make a winner out of them. They are NOT a large market team so they just can't throw money at their problems and hope they go away. So even if they raised payroll to $100 million dollars (up from $74 million last year) what does that REALLY do?

King Griffey Jr and Dunn are gone and that shaved off about $235 million in payroll. However, guys like Harang, Arroyo, Phillips, Cordero and Freel are going to get pay raises from the contracts they already have. Edwin Encarnacion is up for Salary Arbitration so if they keep him then he is going to get a raise. Then there are the nine Free Agents they are going to lose and have to replace. Some of those can be filled with Minor Leaguers or scrubs but that doesn't really go towards the WINNING that Ca$htellini says he wants.

Now, if the Reds truly DO think they have holes at LF, CF, SS and Catcher, then it is going to cost money to fill those holes if they do it through Free Agency. Since LF is teh EASIEST Defensive position on the field and since the Reds play in a hitters ball park, that is the one position they could have filled inexpensively (Willingham).

The other direction, which Jocketty has already said he wont go, is to trade some of the young pitching away. Since Pitching is the hardest and most expensive thing to find and pay for, it is just plain STUPID to trade Volquez or Cueto away since they are young and inexpensive. It is also STUPID to trade Harang and Arroyo away since they are signed to team friendly contracts. Getting rid of any of those four to fill a hole someplace else means opening up a hole at the MOST expensive place to fill.

So, by the Reds not getting Willingham, the EXACT type of guy Jocketty has already said the Reds NEED and are looking for (Right Handed power bat and Left Fielder) then it means they are then left to look for more expensive guys to fill that hole.

Jocketty wasn't willing to trade Volquez or Cueto for Holliday and Manny R is going to cost at least $25 million a year. So, if the Reds signed Manny that would bump payroll to $100 million and they would STILL have holes to fill.

The other options I have heard bandied about are trading for Maglio Ordonez (old and expensive), Marcus Thames (32 and a platoon player) and Jermaine Dye (older and expensive). When I say expensive, I mean it in both the terms of what it would take talent-wise to acquire them and salary-wise.

That leaves Pat Burrell. He is a Right Handed version of Adam Dunn and really, at $12 million or more a year is he THAT much better than WIllingham?

Finally, there is the horror that the Reds might bring Adam "ONE TOOL" Dunn back and give him a large dollar, long term contract.

You would think Bill Bavasi learned his lessen in Seattle when he signed Richie Sexson to a large dollar, long term contract and watched as he sunk into oblivion Offensively (just like Bill James predicted "old skill" players like he and Dunn would) but you never know, especially since Ca$htellini has a man crush on Dunn.

So here is a guy (Dunn) who was with the team for eight years and they LOST all eight years. So if Jocketty wants to build a team with a winning attitude and a winning atmosphere, Dunn is NOT the guy to bring back. Dunn folded in September of 2006 when King Griffey Jr was injured and the Reds needed an Offensive leader and he folded this past year after KGJ was traded. Dunn can NOT be counted on as a leader.

Dunn can't play Defense, can't Steal bases and who doesn't run the bases well (so his Walks don't really hurt the other team) and who would rather take hittable Strikes over the outer third of the plate (1 because he can only hit Fast Balls and Change Ups that are between the upper thigh and the belt and the middle of the plate in and 2 because he is too lazy to work at hitting the ball to the opposite field).

So, given all of these things, WHY bring him back and pay him big bucks when you have other holes to fill and you know that he is going to hurt the Outfield Defense (which improved after he and KGJ were traded away) and you know his Offense is going to go downhill to a point that he hurts the team but he is too expensive to bench and too espensive to trade awy unless, of course, you either package him with somebody the Reds DON'T want to trade or who they eat a LOT of his salary?

No, by not trading for the inexpensive Willingham, Jocketty and the Reds are in REAL trouble if they think they are going to be winners or contenders in 2009 because there are NOT very many, if any, options that are as good and inexpensive as him.

^^^
:O
that's a long post
almost could pull off putting a name at the top right corner and turning it in somewhere

Correcting an error. Instead of $235 million in payroll, it should read $25 million in payroll.

I like baseball,

If you were aiming that comment at me, sorry but it takes that much room to try and explain to non-Reds fans (even some Reds fans too) why Josh Willingham was THE guy to go after for the Reds even though he is NOT a big name player.

Beltran will go down in history as the most under appreciated player in Mets history. He plays an extremely good centerfield (IMO, the only comparable CF in the NL is Victorino, but he doesnt swing Beltran's bat.)

Beltran is VERY fast, and looks effortless while he runs. See also: Cameron Maybin. the guy has HUGE strides

hahaha why thank you GenesisDoes =)

yea, Cub fans are a bunch of cake eater kool-aid drinking losers

been, ta 2 cub games and both times while i was there, there were business men cracking out their laptops and shootin the sh*t with their bosses on the phone

as for the White Sox
it's a blast everytime there, granted it's in a bad part of town where playgrounds have to be caged :-/

hey, i like the Mets as an NL team, i like who they got and how they play and they're pretty daIVIn entertaining

"I've said this in other treads and I'll continue to say it until it comes true...

Dye for Figgins."

If that deal happens, Tony Reagins should be fired on the spot. Figgins is probably going to cost no more than $6-7 million this year to play better defense at a more premium position and has a more rare offensive skill set. If the Angels want Jermaine Dye at the plate, they can just sign both Jason Giambi and not pretend that he is going to play defense. And I say this as a fan of Jermaine Dye.

"Ichiro may be and automatic 200 hits, but he doesn't walk or have any pop, and his speed is diminishing. He's a great player, but his skills are eroding, and he doesn't have the plate discipline to retain his mega-value as they do. Even in 2008, his OPS+ was only 102."

Ugh. Some people just don't get it about guys like Ichiro. He doesn't walk because he doesn't need to and he doesn't hit for more power because he chooses not to. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Did that guy suck? He still has just as much speed as he always did and he is a defensive force. He had his third best SB season this year and his second best SB efficiency season.

"I would take Holliday over Beltran"

Holliday is Coors-inflated and plays the least important defensive position on the field, albeit very well. Put those two on equal ground and Beltran has more power, more speed, better defense, etc. The only place Holliday gets him, assuming his average holds up, is contact numbers.

"I would take Ichiro over Beltran"

Ichiro is very special, but it is hard to compare the two, especially since Ichiro is more comfortable in RF.

"I would take Markakis over Beltran"

Negative points from the beginning for Markakis for no CF experience and the fact that he will likely never play the position. Also, Beltran is faster with equal power. They are actually rather similar offensively, with Beltran being the more valuable defender and switch hitter.

"I would take Andre Either over Beltran"

I am a huge Andre Ethier fan, but you just can't draw that comparison. Ethier is a RFer who has not yet put up comparable power numbers. I do think he is an excellent defender and that this year's +/- severely underrated him, but he isn't a CFer and doesn't have Beltran's raw speed. Pretty much the only way Ethier is equal is with his throwing arm and he is a better contact hitter. Other than that, it isn't a contest.

"I would TAKE JOSH HAMILTON over Beltran"

Hamilton is one of the more overrated players these days. He killed the ball this year, which is great, but he is a terrible defensive CFer (he should stick to RF) and his arm isn't anything special either. Also, none of the speed. Beltran is the far better player.

"QUENTIN? ever heard of him
yea"

One great year out of a below average defensive LFer? He can't carry Beltran's jock.

"there a lot better and well rounded outfielders than beltran"

Actually, that is absolutely not true. Beltran is probably the single most well-rounded outfielder in baseball. Sizemore is close, but his arm isn't up to snuff.

"No, I know what you're saying, Beltran isn't an all time great defensive CF. He's a notch below where Andruw was when he was a legit player."

Actually, I disagree. Beltran is just as good as Andruw ever was and it is a joke that he has only won the 3 GGs

Nah, when Andruw was Andruw, he was amazing. Beltran has GREAT range, especially gap-to-gap, as good as anyone ever probably gap -to-gap. But moving in and out he's not perfect. He's gotten pretty good coming in, hence he plays so deep, but he still has trouble going back every once in a while. Again, it doesn't come across in the metrics a lot of times because they're balls most CF wouldn't get to.

And did I say Ichiro sucked? No, he's legendary. But a 102 OPS+ RF, he really needs to maintain his speed to make it doing that. Some players do, a lot don't. I understand Ichiro is special, but I do think his value is beginning to diminish. Derek Jeter's a special player too. Same age, same OPS+. I know OPS isn't the greatest stat ever, but its a good indication of diminishing skills in both players.

I can't see the sox and mets making a deal. We won are division last year why would we want to trade are stars for prospects? Won't happen unless a third team is involved.

Just wanted to point out that I've been saying the Mets could match up with the Sox on Dye and Jenks (I suggested they look into Swisher too) for over a month now. I was getting killed for it too. I'm not saying it happens, but I guess it wasn't such a silly idea afterall.

*not work

my bad

Jenks overrated or overhyped? What are you smoking? He may not be an elite closer, but he's definitely in the top 10 if not top 5 in the game today. He doesn't blow alot of saves, has a good ERA, and if I'm not mistaken, didn't he tie a major league record for most innings without allowing a baserunner? I wouldn't put Lidge above Jenks, Lidge had a great year for the Phillies, but he's been inconsistant before then. Not to mention he had a meltdown for the astros in '05, especially in the postseason. Hoffman, K-rod, Nathan, those are above Jenks, for now. But Jenks is still young and could get tons better than he already is.

Three way trade with the Mets, Giants and Sox.

Vazquez to the Mets, Rowand to the Sox, prospects to the Giants

I don't know who got the thought in their head that the White Sox are rebuilding, as they most certainly are not. KW has already said payroll will pretty much stay where it is.

So these rumors of Dye for this and that prospect or young pitcher are ridiculous.

The White Sox already are thinking that Richards and Poreda will fill roles on next year's major league roster, so why would we trade such a solid player for some other team's unproven players.

The Sox want speed and contact hitting, preferably at CF, 2B/SS and 3B in that order and if they can't get 1 of the 3, they'll fill in with one of their younger players. But they will fill 2 of the 3...

Also, Dye won't be leaving, Swisher or Konerko will. I'm sure the majority of Sox fans prefer it to be Konerko, but Kenny will have to find a deal that would make him waive his NTC, so it will be difficult.

I don't think that a trade of Dye, Vazquez and Jenks would be made for Beltran or Wright, simply for the fact that it would open up too many holes for the White Sox. It's not often that you get 3 proven players, especially with 2 of the caliber of Dye and Jenks for 1 player in return. I'm not saying those 3 are worth one or the other, just stating why the Sox wouldn't do it.

The Mets wouldn't part with Fernando Martinez for either Santana (they ended up not having to) and Manny. Why would they all of a sudden give him up for Dye who isn't near either of those players in talent? Have the Mets and Mets fans soured on him that much over 1 year? If that's the case, why would the Sox want him?

If the Sox are to trade any of Dye, Vazquez or Jenks, it's going to be to fill A)the hole they are creating, and B)fill another hole or 2 in the process. They aren't just going to dump any of them for prospects that aren't ready, and they definitely won't trade them all together to gain 1 player. It just doesn't make sense from the teams standpoint. I would love to have Wright, Sizemore, Reyes, any of those guys, but the Sox just don't have the talent that they would give up to get them.

Just like to the Mets with Wright and Reyes, Danks is pretty much untouchable, and I wouldn't give up a possible future ace for a position player. Those are elite position players yes, but pitching wins championships.

If the Mets Are trading,why not the Reds? Edwin Encarncion, Drew Stubbs,Homer Bailey, and Jarrod Burton for David Wright And Ryan Church. Gives Reds right handed hitting and Mets Prospects and bullpen help. Hows it sound to you?

How many times do I have to say this: DAVID WRIGHT IS ARGUABLY THE BEST POSITION PLAYER IN METS HISTORY. He won't be traded, at all. Its not even worth discussing.

K's are much more important than any other kids of outs, especially for closers, moreso for bad defensive team, but as a rule of thumb its absolutely true. You don't have to rely on your defense to make a play, baserunners can't advance, etc. Sure, double plays are nice, and groundballs are the second-best kind of out, but I'll take Ks over GBs any day.

And KW is not "rebuilding", but he is shifting around payroll and trying to make some "win now" moves. He wants to get the White Sox younger and more athletic. Dye just doesn't fit this bill. He's an old, one-dimensional player. He has no glove, doesn't walk, doesn't run particularly well, and the 154 games he played in 2008 are the most since 2001. The second most since 2001 is 146. No, he's not Moises Alou, but getting a solid 150 games out of him is a stretch.

Jenks is a very good closer. Not elite, but very good. The one red flag is that the Ks have dropped each of the last two years, but he's young enough that it could just be a fluke, its hard to tell from the stats. Still, Kenny Williams is confident in his ability to rebuild a bullpen while getting max value on Jenks before he hits arbitration and starts costing a few million a year.

...or the mets could just SIGN a closer. plenty of em out there. Thats the beauty of being a big market team. Money