Giants Trying To Sign Big Unit

I like this move for the Giants. It fills out the rotation with Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez and Zito, and he gives them a big name to attract some fans as well.

If they can get him on a one year deal, then it would definitely be worth it. It's definitely a better idea than committing any long term money to a pitcher, with Bumgarner, Alderson and Sosa.

He should go to the dodgers. They have a better chance making the playoffs than the Giants.

A big name? Maybe a couple years ago. The Giants have Lincecum to draw in the fans...any fan that wants to see Unit over the Freak = LOL.

Arizona could also look good next year but they wont have Hudson or Adam Dunn. Behind Webb and Haren they dont have that great of a rotation either.

hope the dodgers get in on the bidding! would help a rotation with no real number 1 starter and all those young guys coming up!!

he needs to go to a team with some offense or he may end up killing someone

why do u think the dodgers are a lock to lose manny? if you believe the globe report bout the yanks, you didnt look at the source

I would like to see Randy Johnson signed by the Dodgers. He would make a very good no. 3 or no. 4 guy.

Had a decent year last year.

I would really like this move because lowry seems really iffy to make the rotation. giantsfan92 - in the event that we do sign RJ, obviously our rotation would be good enough for the playoffs, but I'm really not sure about that lineup. I think maybe we should take a risk on crede with a contract based soley on incentives (plays over 140 games, hits 20+ hrs, etc.) Crede may not be the anwer. Burrel? Whatever the case, I just feel like benjie shouldn't be batting cleanup next year-it should be someone new so, no pablo doesn't qualify

Would you like to now compare lineups, 55, or are you going to stop at pitching?

Even if Manny doesn't return to the Dodgers, which I think he will, you think the Giants have a better line-up?

I do think the Giants will be top 3 in the NL West though and contend in what is still a fairly weak division.

Craig, neither team has completed their lineups, but if you want "penciled in" comparison...

C Molina > Martin - Molina led in every stat except Steals

1B Loney > Ishikawa - Ishi unproven

2B Burriss > DeWitt

SS Renteria (off year) = Furcal (injured)

3B Sandoval > Blake

LF Kemp > Lewis

CF Rowand > Jones

RF Either > Winn - close, slight edge to Eithier

Feel free to agree or disagree. Like I said, neither lineup is complete.

yea if the giants sign burrell or dunn to play 1st, they lock the division. but if lowry comes back healthy, even better because sabes could finally trade sanchez for a bat we need.

55: That really doesn't do the comparison justice as

Kemp is a CF and is >>> over Rowand there.

Martin is > over Molina (get over RBI, Avg., etc)

Dewitt is > over Burris; Burris is horrible trust me.

Blake is > over Sandoval. Sample size anyone?

Loney is >> over Ishikawa. Haha.

I actually think the Giants have a solid future, and I look forward to their young development, but I envy the young talent the Dodgers have, and you are mercifully shaming them in your comparisons. Sorry.

aside from cain and lincecum, the giants' starting pitching is as weak as the other parts of their team. sanchez has tremendous potential, but can't keep his ERA under 5. zito has simply lost it. nothing suggests he'll be turning any corners at this stage in his career. walks are way up, K's are way down, and most importantly, earned runs are through the roof. barry "sunk cost" zito. i didn't even mention the offense and the bullpen. the point is that if the giants do sign randy johnson, there is no reason to believe they'll suddenly be competitive again. renteria, howry, affeldt, and potentially randy johnson certainly do not put the giants on the map. even in the nl west. the giants should really just invest whatever money they have into young talent. they've got some incredible arms in the minors. the fact that they're spending 40+ million dollars a season on renteria, zito, and rowand does not bode well for them at all.

"Blake is > over Sandoval. Sample size anyone?"

Not so sure about this one. I'd probably put Blake in front of Sandoval, but SOLELY because of defense.

At the plate, I'd be surprised if Sandoval didn't have a better year than Blake. The guy makes hard contact all over the field and seems prime to get a ton of at bats in the middle of San Francisco's lineup.

Meanwhile, Blake doesn't have much upside, is getting old, and really only beats Sandoval in terms of plate discipline, as a hitter.

Nuschler's News: Excellent and succint post.

But they need power hitting. Wouldn't Dunn be perfect, since he gives them OF/IB flexibility?

scribbletone-rbi's are an extemely important stat, especially to a low scoring team like the giants. If 95 rbi's on the giants isn't a good argument, then i don't know what is

Wow I don't even want to take the time to refute with everything that I just read.

Molina better than Martin on both offense AND defense?

Using home runs, RBI's, strikeouts and fielding percentage as your argument?

This is all very amusing to me.

According to RotoWorld:

Bochy is looking at a lineup of: RF Randy Winn, SS Edgar Renteria, 3B Sandoval, C Bengie Molina, LF Fred Lewis, CF Aaron Rowand, 1B Travis Ishikawa and the second baseman (Kevin Frandsen, Emmanuel Burriss or Eugenio Velez). Renteria will help, but that'd still be the worst lineup in the NL, and we still have a hard time seeing what it is that Ishikawa did to get penciled in over John Bowker or Nate Schierholtz, who clearly deserves a shot at first base if the Giants aren't going to make room for him in the outfield.

The Giants will not be a good team in 2009 with or without RJ, and they will be a bad team outside on the NL WORST.

giantsfan & 55,

Relax. Molina is a good hitter, but there are some problems with your argument.

First, Martin is much younger and I imagine he is a much better fielder. To really figure it out, you don't want to look at FP% because it does not account for range. (You can't make an error if you can't get to it.) So you want to look at RZR, or better yet, compare a lot of different fielding states.

Second, you are relying on counting stats (e.g. RBI) when, if it's gonna make any sense, you need to give at-bats and consider lineup placement (Molina got the clean-up slot, right? That matters for RBI.

Third, you just have to think about age when you think about the future. Martin's got that, right?

That said, I think Molina had an outstanding year; he is by all accounts a clutch/disciplined hitter and I think he could be very valuable to a competiting team. So he's valuable, you're right, but he's not a core player like Martin is.

Just my $0.02...

jrfukudome,

One thing many people don't know is that we Giants fans are very loyal to our team. And when it comes to dealing with anything afiliated with the Dodgers (fans, players, management), we become very defensive; especially during rebulding times. Not to mention it's pretty much between the Giants and Dodgers in our division, so it's tense when it comes to defending our own players. By your name (jrfukudome) you MAY be a Cubs fan. This is just like Cubs-Cards stuff, you know. Only Yanks-Sox, Cubs-Cards, Giants-Dodgers fans can understand the tense arguements that exist between fans. I'm not sure if scribbletone is a Dodgers fan or not, I'm not making any assumptions.

Bottom Line: NO ONE bashes Bengie Molina, our team captain.

Scrib is a fellow Cubs fan; if you read this blog a lot he is very well-informed and interested in other teams. I think he was just making a point.

Hell yeah, I'm a big Winn, Lincecum, Sanchez fan!

Giantsfan92,

Nobody here is bashing Big Bengie. I like all the Molina brothers. They are all very solid catchers. But what many of us Dodger fans are trying to point out is that making a clear-cut statement that Bengie Molina is better than Russell Martin, is stretching it.

Yes Molina had better up-front stats:
-Molina: .292BA, 16 homers, 95RBI's, .445 slugging, 39K's
-Martin: .280BA, 13 homers, 69RBI's, .396 slugging, 83K's

But Martin had better peripherals:
-Molina: .320OBP, .767OPS, 46 runs, 19BB, 0 stolen bases,
-Martin: .380OBP, .781OPS, 87 runs, 90BB, 18 stolen bases

Also, it should be noted that Russell Martin created 91 runs, whereas Molina created 72 runs. Even though Martin had over HALF of the at bats in the #3 and #4 spots in the lineup, he created 19 more runs than Molina, making him more valuable to his offense.

I'm just posting stats. I'm a guy who hates the upfront stats that sometimes hide the better players (BA, homers, etc). OBP, borrowing from Mike Scioscia and Joe Torre, is vastly more important than BA, especially for leadoff batters. I'd rather have a leadoff batter that has a BA of .270 and an OBP of .390, than a leadoff batter with a BA of .310 and an OBP of .330

Just some stuff to chew on.

And 55...

If a line of .264BA, .344OBP, .383 slugging, .728OPS "sucks", then .283BA, .357OBP, .323 slugging, .686OPS isn't much better. The former being DeWitt's line stats, and the latter being Burriss'.

"C Molina > Martin - Molina led in every stat except Steals

1B Loney > Ishikawa - Ishi unproven

2B Burriss > DeWitt

SS Renteria (off year) = Furcal (injured)

3B Sandoval > Blake

LF Kemp > Lewis

CF Rowand > Jones

RF Either > Winn - close, slight edge to Eithier

Feel free to agree or disagree. Like I said, neither lineup is complete. "

Alright so if Martin was offered for Molina would you take it?

If anything Dewitt and Burriss are equal, even though I think Dewitt has a better season next year.

Furcal will have a better season than Renteria next year.

If Manny does not come back, Kemp will be in center with
Pierre playing in left, making Jones the 4th outfielder at best.

And yes Kemp is better than Rowand.

Ethier and Winn are even, but the upside of Ethier puts a little more weight on the scale.

Ishikawa is indeed unproven, but in looking at his minor league stats, nothing really stands out (career minor league stats):

-.260BA, .355OBP, .455 slugging, 95 homers in 2515 AB's (which calculates to 18.9 homers per 500 AB's)

Loney had consistently good stats throughout the minors. Ishikawa probably won't ever get to Loney's level (who still has some power developing).

jrfukodome- I agree that Dunn is tempting and would add much needed power to a below average lineup but I'm not sold he is right for the Giants. He can't play 1B even if we wish it on him so he's in the outfield.

Aaron Rowand isn't untradeable but is very close to it at this point. Maybe next off season if he turns it around some. Randy Winn has value, but probably more so to the Giants. I persoanally would like to see one more year of Fred Lewis. I think he is built to hit in that park. He may only hit 18-22 hrs but will hit 15+ triples and 35+ doubles. Better than everyone else. And then there's Nate Schierholtz. I'd just like to see a few AB's, someday. He's got potential. I'm not advocating giving him a starting job, nor passing on a proven star, but I don't think Dunn fits that bill.

If they sign Dunn now, there looking at 3 years minnimum. I think between the money spent and the log jam created, the Giants would miss out on better players in the future.

The Giants aren't built to win this year, but in there division they are not far off. Getting Dunn now is tempting because he may push them over the top. But if they wait until next year, they are in better position to trade pitching for hitting. Carl Crawford is a potential free agent, although his option most likely gets picked up, but he could be a trade candidate then as well and he IS a perfect ballplayer for AT&T. I'd rather wait.

Now, if Adam Dunn is still around in a few months and the Giants can get him on a 1-2 year deal for less money because of the economy, than i think you do it. But for now, I wait, and probably just try to upgrade at 3rd and pitching.

Blake...

Quite a long trail of arguments...OK...

I never said Martin was bad. He is indeed very talented. But value to team, Bengie is more valuable to us that Martin...Who would you rather have mentor Kershaw and Billingsly? Molina or Martin? We have Timmy and Cain. One of your pitchers went as far as blasting his game calling.
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Burriss vs. DeWitt. I'll take Burriss. I live in LA and have watched DeWitt. He is not clutch at all. They are different players. I prefer Burriss.
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Dodgers do have some talented youth. I never argued that either. Although Laroche isn't a Dodger anymore and Hu hasn't done anything. I was stating to a Giants fan that he shouldn't be envious when we have VERY talented youth on our side.
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And you are the 2nd dodger fan to argue that Loney is better than Ishi when I stated that fact FIRST!!

peace

661 -

I'll take Molina for several reasons.

1. Most important. Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez. Our top 3 in the rotation are under 26. Who would be a better mentor, a seasoned veteran like Molina or Martin?

2. Bengie is CLUTCH. He has come up with the hits when we need them for two years now.

3. His Caught Stealing % was among the tops in MLB last season.

4. Buster Posey. Our 1st round draft pick who has been killing it in rookie/winter leagues and is being fasttracked to the majors.

-------
Furcal will have a better year then Renteria? Can you see the future? Ever had a back injury? Ask Crede how they heal. Time will tell who has a better season.
---------
If Manny is resigned, Kemp will be CF...Once again, you guys miss my original post..PENCILED IN. You don't have Manny now. Yahoo Depth Chart lists Kemp in LF. I AGREE Kemp is better than Rowand. I am comparing who is PENCILED in at position. I further originally posted that Either has a slight edge on Winn...no need arguing that point either...

peace

Blake..

Loney is indeed better. His defense is really good as well. For a guy his size, he can get to the ball quick. Ishi, we'll have to see. Time will tell unless Sabean freaks out and signs Burrell to an 8 yr 100 mill contract to play 1B.

We need Bengie because Raghetti sucks as pitching coach...lol I'm hoping the offer the farm to Maddux to come take over. I can imagine when Maddux gets hired by whatever team, he can tell them to send a blank check and he'll fill in the amount...lol

Maddux as a pitching coach would be AMAZING!

Blake> Sandoval
yeah right, blake is an old 260 hitter, sandoval hits everything around the plate. Giants fans are defintley happy about the deal to Blake, will make the dodgers weak for the next three years

"So catchers don't routinely go out and talk to pitchers during games? They see something different in a hitters approach and adjust to it."

Okay.

Now prove how they actually helps pitchers.

And then prove how Molina is better at talking to pitchers than Martin.

Do it.

"How was last season "fluky" when he has put up consistently good numbers over the past three years in pitchers parks??"

Number one, I said that his hitting with RISP was fluky, not his overall performance.

And if you consider consistently good numbers over the past three years to be OBP's of .319, .298 (!!!), and .322, as well as OPS+'s of 100, 86, and 98, then okay.

OPS+ includes park factors as well, so essentially, Molina was a league average hitter in two seasons, and a very below average hitter in the season in between.

"I get that you prefer Martin, but if you want to debate, please come with some facts/stats instead of "my guy is better than your guy because he is" take...."

All I have been doing is bringing up fully logical arguments supported by good evidence.

Your arguments included that he was clutch and that he was better at talking to pitchers than Martin.

HOW IN GODS NAME CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT? There are no stats or facts out there to back up your argument.

And I don't like the Dodgers.

You're just flat out wrong.

Well Scribble,

I guess we'll just have to disagree then...

You say you bring up fully logical arguments supported by good evidence. I was the one who put Statistical info to back my argument while pointing issues the pitcher who had with Martins game calling that you avoided.

I further included last years defensive stats which show that Molina had a better year defensively than Martin, but you blew that off as well.

I prefer Molina
You prefer Martin.

No point in continuing this. I'm not coming back to this thread, its too far down the line on the page now.

Peace out.

"I further included last years defensive stats which show that Molina had a better year defensively than Martin, but you blew that off as well."

But you used the wrong statistics. Fielding percentage and CS% don't really reflect the quality of the defense of a catcher.

If you had used RZR, UZR or range factor to support your argument, I would've been okay.

You're just using really unsophisticated statistics that do little to actually reflect a players performance.

You can prefer Molina, but you're wrong, and that's fine.

You said that I'm wrong, and then said nobody is wrong.

Not that I really care, I mean, I just turned 17 and I spend most of my time baked off my ass.

But Martin and his superior defense/OBP make hm better.