Odds and Ends: Teixeira, Hunsicker, Burrell

I'm not surprised by Burrell never getting an actual offer. They didn't consider him a Phillie two seconds after the World Series ended, and it's been pretty obvious.

Kenny Lofton running his mouth is as much of a suprise as T.O. running his.

Queue Luis Castillo and Ryan Church for Oswalt trade proposals.

"So if the Yanks are avoiding Boras I guess that means no Manny or Tex."

That's kinda what I was wondering. But honestly I don't see the yanks as getting either. First of all if Theo goes all in for Tex, good chance he'll make Cash either walk away from the table or pay a price that goes far beyond what Cash is willing. And Manny... good hitter, but what happens in June when he demands a trade? I just don't think he has the kinda antics that Cash will accept.

If Giants can sign Ty Wigginton and keep Sanchez, that would be sweet!

Wigginton > or = to Cantu/Encarnacion/Tejada

Oswalt deserves to be dealt to a contender. If Houston really isnt going to try and make and major improvements then they owe it to the guy.

lol Kenny Lofton...Mr.I think im still an everyday player...

On a more serious note, it looks like Lofton obviously failed in his warnings.

Shut up Kenny has been.
I dont think the Yanks will sign Tex or Manny. But you can never tell. They might trade for someone instead of $pend the big money.

wait, so no byung-hyun kim?

Yeah, that Ibanez signing by the Phillies was really stupid. Burrell is just as good, and could have been had for one year if he accepted arbitration (if offered). They should at least have offered him arb. to get the picks. How rediculous.

Bleedinblue, if this was a Keith Law chat, you'd owe him $5 for that horrendous trade proposal. You have got to be kidding.

the richard justice piece about oswalt was pretty interesting. the astros aren't near in the financial predicament the padres are, but oswalt's situation is similar to peavy's: 2 ace pitchers on teams going nowhere with financial concerns, and both have full no-trade powers. oswalt's contract is even more financially agreeable than peavy's. not to mention that those 2 are best friends. what if the braves asked the astros about oswalt? not that the braves would trade their prospects this time when they wouldn't for peavy, but fun to think about...

"Bleedinblue, if this was a Keith Law chat, you'd owe him $5 for that horrendous trade proposal. You have got to be kidding."

He was joking. So. There ya go.

I think there is no doubt that a Oswalt deal would likely require at least two of Pelfrey, Martinez, Flores and Niese, as well as one or two guys from a group of guys like Holt, Parnell, Havens, Kunz, Murphy, Pena, Tejeda, etc.

I'm waiting for Cubs fans to come out with Felix Pie and some low level A prospects for Oswalt.

Man, I wish they'd trade Lance Berkman to the Yankees. Highly unlikely though.

LOL @ those ridiculous trade offers for Oswalt. Scribbletone hit it right on the button. Great starting pitchers in the majors are hard to come by so their trade value is usually always high. Houston could make a run at the 2011-2012 if they started rebuilding as I type.

IFiredScottBoras (great name by the way)

I wasnt counting anything, just surmising what the Yanks might do based upon different things I have read. If you noticed I didnt say he SHOULD be #3, I said not to be surprised if he was.

I hope the Mets are not interested in Burrell.

*Martinez

Kenan and Kel,

Yeah, well if we were able to trade all of our marquee players in return for top prospects, we would have one on the top farm systems in a couple of years, but Drayton McLane is our owner. Thats why I used the word if.
Can you even begin to consider the load of prospects we could net from names like: Lee, Berkman, Oswalt, Valverde, and Pence? Most teams that rebuild don't have half the talent Houston would have to move around if Drayton would sell the damn team.

"Nearly all of the stars on the Phillies were acquired by Ed Wade so maybe you should thank him even though he did do alot of David Bell esque moves."

I think you could give the majority of that credit to Mike Arbuckle and the scouting staff. I mean I guess you can credit Wade for not screwing with Arbuckle, but Ed Wade wasn't the guy who wanted to draft Utley, Rollins, Hamels, etc.

Yeah well Ed Wade ran the show, and here in America, thats who gets all the credit 95% of the time. I'm not saying to put Ed Wade on some hierarchy pedestal, but to quit bashing him all of time just because people want somebody to cry about. Philly should be fortunate that they actually won something.

"Yeah well Ed Wade ran the show, and here in America, thats who gets all the credit 95% of the time."

That's because we are wrong, here in America. I'm not bashing Wade, he's not the godawful GM that people are making him out to be. He's an okay GM, but do not credit him with drafting those guys. He didn't do it, he just approved of it.

Wade basically built that Phillies team. I really don't understand why Philly fans have it out for him so much. It seems like no matter what the guy did was bad for your org because they didn't win when he was there. Hell, Hunsicker won the Astros pennant not Timmy P.

Brain-I was thinking the same exact thing. Don't forget the Yankees throwing out names like Hughes and Kennedy. It will take something similar to the Haren deal. The Mets don't have the prospects either. I would love to see some sort of three way deal with the Rays to get Garza and Niemman(if we could include him in a package with Garza).

Yeah if all the players on the Stros would waive their clauses there could be a ton of prospects to grab. I love Oswalt and Berkman, but I want them to have a chance to win and not play for a POS owner like McLane, who refuses to spend money, but thinks he has a winner. That run the Astros made at the end of the season was the worst thing that could have happened to this franchise.

Yeah, the Schilling and Rolen trades were both just AWFUL for Philly.

If you want to know why Philly fans hate Wade, look at those two moves.

Yeah the Bedard trade was worse by far. Yeah H-Town, its just another Philly fan trying to find something to cry about. not a big deal really, I'm used to it. Always dwelling on something that doesn't matter anymore or finding someone to cry wolf about. Um I can think of a bunch of number 1 picks overall that ultimately amounted to nothing.

oh and the worst move of the Ed Wade ERA he takes the blame for ownership being cheap.

JD Drew.

He played hardball with Boras and LOST.

Add that to Rolen and Schilling deals and you've got why we feel how we do about Wade.

oh and for those Mets fans that predicted Utley to be out until June my bet is he's back by May 1st at the latest.

Regarding Utley: He was in good spirits, even cracking a few jokes during his news conference. Still no word on whether he'll be ready to play by Opening Day, but Utley said he's hoping to play in spring-training games by mid-March. He will go for a follow-up appointment with Dr. Bryan Kelly, his surgeon in New York, in mid-January, and he likely will be able to resume baseball activities (swinging a bat, etc.) until mid-February.

"Htown was talking about how the Astros got ripped in the deal by Wade for Wagner in the first place. So maybe its not a Wade issue, as much as its an Astros issue."

Those were completely different managements. I don't see how there would be any relation between those two trades. I'm not following.

My point was Wade pulled a fast one on the Astros in the Wagner deal. The Astros got nothing in return for him except a piece that was used in a trade to get Jason Jennings.

I.

All due respect to Buster Olney, but in my humble opinion, his argument is nothing less than lunacy.

The Nats and O's should sit this one out because they can't compete with the likes of Boston or LA? That's just plain ridiculous. Granted, Teixeira's contract could prove burdensome, but the answer- economically speaking- is right there in the article. The Angels' payroll, assuming Tex re-signs, will be around $120M; Boston's would be roughly $135M were THEY to sign the skillful slugger. Washington- WITH Tex- would still only have a $75M payroll, while Baltimore would have about $80M in annual obligations if they won the Teixeira sweepstakes. Those aren't my numbers; I'm simply quoting Olney's article. See a discrepancy in the numbers? Now, remember: these ain't the Marlins we're talking about!

Do both the Nats and O's need young pitching? YES! Do they need to spend money elsewhere? Sure! But there's room! The fundamental issue that Olney seems to ignore here is that both clubs play in large markets that can support payroll costs in the same $100+ neighborhood as the contenders listed. They also have aspirations of contending- realistically or not- in the near future (3-5 years) and solid farm systems (not sure about Washington, but I know Baltimore's is fairly stacked). As teams like Tampa and Colorado have demonstrated in recent years, ANYTHING can happen, so why in God's name would ANY team simply count themselves out?

I must admit a better working knowledge of the Orioles than of the Nats, but then...Olney's something of an expert with regard to Baltimore as well. I agree with his assessment of the fan-base, which is considerable and complex (though I think Olney fails to address Angelos' role in driving the fans away), but his logic is backward. True, the fans will continue to steer clear if the club continues sending lambs to the lions of the AL East under the auspices of 'competing', but it works the other way too: they'll flood Camden Yards the minute there IS a contender. The revenue stream will turn into a full-blown raging river! This has been the case in the past and throughout the history of the franchise. Heck, it wasn't SO long ago that we trailed only the Yankees in payroll.

Now, it's true that Tex alone cannot and will not turn around the Orioles' fortunes, but I think any knowledgeable fan- regardless of their team- knows it goes well beyond the simple dualities of A or B; black or white.

First off, signing Tex would have very real and immediate ramifications as far as the current roster is concerned. It's highly likely that Brian Roberts would become much more open to the idea of re-signing with the team (his current deal expires at the end of '09). Nick Markakis- with whom the club is currently engaged in extension talks- would almost certainly sign in a heartbeat as well (I think he'll eventually sign anyway, but this would seal the deal). Simply put, it would have incredible symbolic weight with the fans and players alike; demonstrating that the club has committed to winning...and not ten years from now. Soon. That's an important statement after alienating both groups (fans and free agents) over the past 12 losing seasons. So much damage has been done, but- as I suspect Olney would agree- the love affair Baltimore has with the Birds is ingrained in the blue collar culture of the city. If you build it- a winner- they will come. It took a lot to drive the fans away and it will take a lot to get them back. Tex is step 1.

III.

Of course, Olney is spot-on in calling out the club's lack of pitching. After Jeremy Guthrie- the Orioles' de facto No. 1, who is more of a mid-rotation guy- there's a load of question marks. Still, I think I can make a pretty convincing argument that, among farm systems, only Texas and maybe Oakland can compete with Baltimore for both talent and depth of pitching. The O's have Chris Tillman and Brian Matusz as front-line-quality arms within a year or two of the bigs; Jake Arrieta looks like a 2 or 3; Brandon Erbe- still just 20- has an electric arm and with added command could join Tillman and Matusz in the front half of a future rotation. Radhames Liz and Garrett Olson are both coming off rough rookie campaigns, but each showed flashes of the talent that once made them highly regarded prospects. Troy Patton- another former top 100 prospect- should be back in '09 with a chance to re-establish himself as a mid-to-back of the rotation power lefty. Who knows? Hayden Penn may finally stay healthy long enough to realize some of his long-dormant promise. His struggles certainly haven't been for lack of talent. And those are just some of the bigger (and closer) names... Brad Bergeson, David Hernandez, Zach Britton, Tony Butler, Chris Salberg, Chorye Spoone, Pedro Beato, and Bobby Bundy lead a high-upside second tier. I'm not saying any of these guys will turn out to be the next Johan Santana or CC Sabathia, nor am I claiming the organization can simply stand pat and wait on their prospects to establish themselves as big leaguers. After all, they ARE prospects- prospective major league pitchers- which is to say, there's no guarantee they'll even REACH the bigs. Again, though...it's something.

Olney seems to get this and understand that the talent must be augmented via the international market and/or free agency. Still, he also seems to think that one thing precludes another. If history tells us anything, though, it's that clubs tend to spend more, the closer they are to contending. Adding Tex would push any team a step closer to contending.

V.

Were Olney arguing that Tex, himself, should apologize for considering the O's/Nats, I'd have far less to take issue with. Then, at least, his central treatise might be one of 'playing to win' instead of an attack on it. Intended or not, Olney seems to be eschewing parity for the sake of the status quo. Worse still, he hides it behind some 'greater good' nonsense. Perhaps if Tex were a bit older, it might be wise for a team like the Orioles or Nats- organizations at least 2-3 years from competing- to ignore his impact bat and golden glove, but he's not...and they shouldn't. His contract will be heavy, but it's a burden either team is capable of shouldering. Olney suggests that only a team within spitting distance of the World Series should take on such a fiscal monster; that it somehow makes more sense, given that the rest of the pieces are in place for such teams. By Olney's estimation, the O's and Nats should squirrel away their resources in order to make a run at 'young pitching.' What he fails to mention is that 'young pitching' rarely hits the open market precisely BECAUSE of it's inherent value! Forget the fact that the Yankees missed the playoffs but had one of the AL's top records on the strength of their offense and DESPITE a rag-tag starting rotation that, beyond Mike Mussina, couldn't stay healthy (Joba, Wang, Hughes, and- cough- Pavano all went down; Pettite kinda sucked). Forget the fact that the Blue Jays had the top rotation by ERA and still finished fourth- three games BEHIND the Yankees- in the AL East. Where are these young pitchers coming from?! The Angels had a great staff, but among them, only Garland came via FA (and he was, perhaps, the worst of the bunch). The Jays' starting five consisted of just one pitcher who WASN'T homegrown as well. True, the Red Sox DID trade for Beckett as a 25 year old (or close), but it cost them Hanley Ramirez! Matsuzaka was the exception to every rule as a posted Japanese FA- the only comparable player on the horizon is Yu Darvish. Rarely do pitchers under the age of 30 become available and when they do, the battle for their services is fierce and the cost, high. What makes Olney think such talents would consider Baltimore or Washington- particularly as they're currently constructed? Even if they match the Yankees or Sox or Angels in dollars, they can't compete in...competing. Of course, if those annual cellar dwellars capitalize when a player like...say...Tex, hits the market, stating a willingness to come to town, said team instantly looks more palatable to other free agents- so significant is their impact. Moreover, since- as we've seen- the best rotations tend to be built from within and top young arms are so rarely made available, this wouldn't exactly become a regular occurrence. More than anything, it's a question of opportunity; suddenly the O's or Nats or whoever, become a real option. In this age of no-trade clauses and whatnot, that is an important distinction. Since Olney has already established that there's a good $40M payroll difference between an Angels club with Tex and an O's team with the slugging first baseman (and that's before the aforementioned money coming off the books), there's reason to believe the money will be there if that opportunity exists and the situation presents itself.

Olney's only salient point has to do with time-frame and the uncertain development of the Orioles' (or Nationals') existing young pitchers. Here, however, Tex's relative youth and the length of his prospective contract, play an important role. Since the deal he's looking at should come to somewhere between 8 and 10 years in duration, and, because, at 28, it's reasonable to believe Tex will remain productive for most of that period, we're talking about a fairly long window. Again, it might affect Tex's OWN thinking, but shouldn't, in my opinion, change either clubs'. After all, what's going to happen is going to happen with or without Tex in the lineup. If anything, his mentoring and the cultural shift he might bring to a clubhouse would benefit the development of these younger players. Waiting on them presupposes that another, comparable FA will pop up when the time is right; a hometown hero type willing to play for a team that, by then, will have probably posted 14 or 15 losing campaigns in a row. It also ignores the 'domino effect'- or its reverse- that a Tex signing (or non-signing) could conceivably trigger, as detailed above.

Told ya it was long. Apologies. Anyway, feel free to skip. Just had to get that out. Those who do read it...let me know what you think.