Giants Aggressively Pursuing Manny?

Giants new line up would be
CF Winn
SS Renteria
3B Sandavol
LF Ramirez
1B Swisher
RF Lewis
C Molina
2B Cano

Buck,
Don't forget the man beast Villalona. Listen, I see where you're head is at, but Molina only gets an extension if Sandoval works at 3rd base, which I think could be a bit of a stretch. His frame tells me he'll be a catcher or 1st. Posey is gonna be the guy. They're sold on him big time. And yes, you are 100% correct Sabean is stop gapping until the youngsters get up in 2010-2011.
Like I said, you've changed my mind, I'm okay with Manny, as long as he's not the nucleus of the team. Even when he was in Boston, he wasn't the nucleus. They gave the Captainship to Veritek because Manny is not a leader. He is a great hitter and makes pitchers alter their game, but he can't be the focalpoint. Manny being Manny only works if he can take a day off and the team won't fall apart on that day.
-Kfer has offically stepped down from his soapbox-

Dunn aint going to play for the Giants even if Sabean through in hookers for each home game. The guy hits something like .200 at AT&T and his gap power makes him a doubles hitter instead of the 40 hr guy. I'm in for Pat the Bat. He'll be cheap and he's a total power threat.

the giants are not gonna sign manny i am a huge dodger fan and i have nothing against the giants dont get me wrong but i think you guys are better off staying young and maybe next off season go after pujols or something like that dont go after a 37 year old manny its just not worth it to you guys.

Shawn and all:

Baseball.Suite101 is wrong. Here is what the CBA says from page 74 (pdf page 86):

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/cba_english.pdf

5) Quota
(a) Clubs shall be limited in the number of Type A and B Players, as defined below, they may subsequently sign to contracts. The number of signings permitted shall be related to the number of Players electing free agency under this Section B. If there are 14 or less such Players, no Club may sign more than one Type A or B Player. If there are from 15 to 38 such Players, no Club may sign more than two Type A or B Players. If there are from 39 to 62 such Players, no
Club may sign more than three Type A or B Players. If there are more than 62 such Players, the Club quotas shall be increased acordingly. There shall be no restrictions on the number of
unranked Players that a Club may sign to contracts.
(b) Irrespective of the visions of subparagraph (a) above, a Club shall be eligible to sign at least as many Type A and B Players
as it may have lost through Players having become free agents under this Section at the close of the season just concluded.

This year according to USA Today there are 63 such players and they are bolded in the following link.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2008-11-05-elias-player-rankings_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

My understanding of the above CBA is that the Giants would be limited to the 4 they have already signed (Affeldt, Howry, Renteria, Johnson).

If totally accurate, nice research giantsrainman....thanks for looking into it one way or the other

signing Manny is intriguing. the Giants could use the power. But you have to wonder why there hasn't been more interest until now. there are lots of teams who could afford him.

is he the missing piece that puts the Giants back in the playoff? or is he a new problem in the clubhouse?

perhaps a little of both...but i tend to think its more of the latter

giantsrainman-

Your understanding of the CBA is correct, but I'm 90+% sure that free agents who are not offered arbitration by their old teams lose their ranking(since they no longer net their old team the draft pick(s)). So, Howry, Renteria, and Johnson wouldn't count towards the quotas. The quotas are primarily there for compensation(draft pick) reasons, if I'm right.

You are correct Melonis Rex

Because Renteria, Johnson, and Howry were not offered arbitration, they lose their classifications as a Type A or type B FA, thus the Giants signed three unclassified FA and one type B so far this offseason.

Nuschler:

You are confusing the use of Type A/B for draft pick compensation with the use of Type A/B for this quota. Yes, there is no draft compensation but the quota still applies.

Melonis rex:

As we know, Posey is starting the year at AA with Steve Decker, and I hope will be there the whole year and not be rushed.

Melonis Rex- sorry if I gave the impression I was insinuating to rush Posey to the bigs because I don't feel that way at all. I actually agree with you. I think the Giants would be best served trying to get bengie Molina for 1 more year, which should certainly eliminate any percieved gap between when Posey is ready and the need to have a catcher.

The case I was trying to make is i think the Giants wait until at least mid season before they even look at the options involving what to do with Molina/Posey/Sandoval. how Sandoval does at whatever position they play him at and how he hits, How well Posey does at AA, and what they think the bounty for Molina is then vs. what he may be worth in 1 to 1.5 seasons.

Nuschler-

It's cool. I don't think Molina signs a 1 year deal, simply b/c he'll be the best FA catcher available. With huge question marks in both Posada and the Sox' catching situation, along with the Mets needing a catcher after '09, I see big money to be had for Molina.

I'd think that for 2010, the Giants would sign a stopgap type guy, who would have to take a back seat to Posey when he was ready. Molina probably won't be the guy.

Agreed on the midseason point though. Just don't count on Posey in '09.

Giantsrainman-

I don't think I am. While nothing in the CBA clearly states whether the quota is pre or post offer of arbitration, I think it does answer the question.

A player not offered Arbitration no longer carries status of being a type A or type B free agent.

When a team signs these players, it is under that fact. They either signed a Type A, Type B, or unclassified player.

The Quota states no team can sign more than a slot number of typed free agents, based off total typed free agents. This season being 4.

The Giants only have signed one, Affedlt

Howry, Johnson, and Renteria were all signed as unclassified free agents, thus no draft pick compensation goes to their former teams.

The quota cannot still apply as they are all interconnected.

A type A free agent is defined in the CBA as a player in the top 20 percent of their respective positions. Where it is muddied is where a team must offer arbitration to validated the type A status. Where it clears it up is where the quota states a team can sign unlimited unclassified free agents.

A player becomes unclassified once the team declines to offer arbitration, thereby making the player not count against the quota

it is confusing but also is completely tied together. One cannot be without the other.

Nuschler:

The CBA does not say the a player not offered arbitration is no longer Type A/B. It just says that his previous team does not get draft pick compenstation. There is just nothing in the CBA to support that this quota only applies to Type A/B players only offered arbitration.

Nuschler-

Yeah, I'm a massive, massive believer in prospects and home-grown talent.Especially pitching, since attrition rate is HIGH. I'm an A's fan, and watching and anticipating the young pitching coming up is awesome. I'm pretty sure the same applies to Alderson/Bumgarner, and young prospect pitching in general.

Agree that focus should be on 2010 and beyond. Manny won't block any high upside prospects. The biggest concern with a Manny signing will be salary.

I could easily be wrong, I'm just number crunching here. Right now, the Giants' 5 biggest commitments for '10 (Zito, Rowand, Renteria, Affeldt, Cain) total up to 47.75MM. However, major players in Lincecum, Wilson, and Sanchez will be going to arbitration. I could easily see Lincecum getting a Ryan Howard type bonus in arb-1 (10MM), and Sanchez getting anywhere from 3-5MM if he puts up the '09 that I see him putting up (ERA around low 4s...look at peripherals). Wilson could also get some 2-3MM in arb. Then I assume they decline the option on Lowry and go to arbitration with him (he is NOT a FA after the '09 season if the Giants decline the option: he'd only have 5 years of service time. Nontendering him would be stupid if he's healthy at the end of the '08 season and pitched decently in '08).

Then, the Giants might have to fill maybe an infield hole or two (depending on what happens with the youth at 1B, 2B, and 3B) and probably some bulllpen help.

If adding Manny's 20+MM into that equation would push the Giants' payroll to a point where they wouldn't be able to retain its arb-eligible players, namely Lincecum (since he will easily be the most expensive), then the Giants should easily stay away.

The Giants have the weakest lineup in the Majors, spend all that money on one player is foolish! They have holes at all the corners...Manny won't put them over the top!

"The Giants have the weakest lineup in the Majors, spend all that money on one player is foolish! They have holes at all the corners...Manny won't put them over the top!"

Full season of Sandoval, and a Ishikawa/Bowker/Phelps platoon should provide decent offense at the corners. Having Sandoval for a full season alone should be a considerable improvement over what the Giants had at 3B last year.

And, while Manny won't put them over the top in a real division, the NL West is going to suck anyways. If the Giants get Manny, the Dodgers don't get Manny. Weakens the Dodgers ,unless they go after someone else, which is somewhat likely. The other teams are weak, with the division's non-Manny best hitter(Matt Holliday) out of the division, and the DBacks and Padres having salary issues. The NL West will be the least crappiest of the crappy teams.

The Padres have already conceded next year and a couple after that...The Dodgers have alot of talent that is proven at the ML level...the Giants are in a great position to be good this year...Manny isn't the answer

GiantsRainman-

while I think you are wrong in your interpretation, it may be me who is wrong. It doesn't clearly state it but I think at the very least, the fact that it has never been an issue in the past and the language is muddied, the players union would fight this with the league as a loophole.

Another overlooked fact by both of us when I was researching this more just now.

"(5) Quota
(a) Clubs shall be limited in the number of Type A and B Players,
as defined below, they may subsequently sign to contracts. The
number of signings permitted shall be related to the number of Players
electing free agency under this Section B"

The last sentence says players electing free agency under this section B (section B meaning Free Agency in general on page 70) It in no way refers to Type A/B players filing for free agency, but actually specifies all players filing or free agency in general, who meet section B criteria.

So really, this would only become an issue if the Giants signed, I believe, it is 6 free agents with type A/B status this off season.

Tim did a page on this back in October: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/10/free-agent-quot.html#comments

Peezy, I agree with you. Schierholtz shouldn't have any bearing on signing Manny. Nate will still get AB's as a 4th OF.

My only real question is what is the commitment Sabean will have to make to Manny to sign him. I don't think a three year deal is a wise move at all and would cause the Giants to have to trade off homegrown talent they can't afford when it comes time to pay them. I think a 2 year deal would be risky and would have to be a very creative contract, incentive wise, to keep him motivated. I don't think you can get Manny at 1 year, but maybe if they wait long enough, or give him an opt out clause after 1 year

If Swisher's in the last year of his contract, and I believe he is, the Giants aren't interested. Sabean's repeatedly said they won't trade for a guy with one year left...and that includes third baseman Hank Blalock whom the organization apparently really likes.

That proposed Yankees trade sounds great for Yankees fans...Swisher, Cano, etc. But, Emmanuel Burris is a guy the Giants like at second base and...he's young and they insisted last year they were committed to building from within their farm system. And, hey, what's the market for Cano coming off that brutal season in 2008?

Admittedly, the Giants move to build from the farm system is flawed because the REAL prospects are young...Posey, Angel Villalona, etc. So...I think...it makes sense to spend the dough to get Manny for 2, 3 years and be in contention and put people in the seats. (The Giants are on the hook for paying off that deed on AT&T Park and they will have trouble doing it with the current lineup and 2, 3 years waiting to contend.) No public money went to building that park...so, maybe the ownership seems Ramirez for a 3-year deal as spending money to make money?

--
I don't doubt teams inquired about Rowand...but, he came out here as a "clubhouse leader" guy with a history as doing very well as a supporting player. The Giants stuck him into a lead role in a pathetic batting order. His value will increase with better players around him. Nobody thought he was going to have a Ramirez-like impact on the lineup.

--
Fred Lewis is the Giants guy...in leftfield...right now. Everything I've heard and read tells me that the big question in the rumor of a push for Ramirez is, "What does it mean to their plans for Lewis?" He's a defensive liability in a very, very spacious right field in AT&T Park...but, maybe the Giants think he's an athlete who can learn to play the outfield and, thus, they would consider big money, for a short deal, with Ramirez.

It seems hard to believe...the Giants getting Ramirez...but, people didn't expect them to sign Barry Bonds when he left the Pirates either...(ancient history, I know).

Nuschler, you said it yourself--they haven't spent the Comcast money. Simply by signing Ramirez, the Giants don't need to trade someone, particularly someone who is cost-effective, ala LIncecum, Cain, Sanchez, or Wilson. The Giants best young players wouldn't be arbitration eligible until even after a two year-deal would be completed. Therefore, they could still lock Lincecum up to his enormous extension afterwards.

There's no way in hell Manny's going for an incentive-laden deal, nor should he have to do so. The man has consistently produced his entire career, and Scott Boras is his agent.

Sounds like the White Sox got out of that contract at the right time

Two things...

First, this rumor, either way, is productive for the Giants. Either we land him, which I'm doubting, OR we drive the price up for the Dodgers and force them into a bad deal.

Second, the thing with Rowand is, he's a great complimentary hitter. You're not going to plug this guy into a bad lineup and say "Alright we're set." Rather, you want to plug Aaron in somewhere around a monster bat. If he hits behind Manny he will put up good looking numbers... Plain and simple.

Nuschler:

I think you may be right and thus I may be wrong. The operative word in reference to 14 or under, 15-38, and 39-62 does indeed appear to be "Players" and not "Type A and Type B Players". Looking at it in this light it does indeed seem like the number that sets the standard is the total number of free agents (not just Type A and Type B Free Agents). If this is the correct interpretation then the Giants are nowhere near the limit.

ESPN shows 203 total free agents of which some (but I don't know how many) are non tendored free agents as opposed to 6Year+ MLB Service free agents. I would guess this year's limit is more like Eight then the Six you suggest. For it to be Six 69 of the 203 total free agents would have to have been non tendored which seems highly unlikely to me.

San Fran is trying to drive the price up on LA,Manny wont be happy any place he goes,BIG CRY BABY

Manny really isnt worth the dough, but may be San Francisco's only option. I think it would be a decent signing for a team with the arms that San Fran has.

I was looking at the Giants current roster. If they add Manny, and no one else of any significance, why would Manny ever see a pitch to hit? I could see him with 300 walks in that lineup, regardless of who hits behind him.

Lets just leave it at this, the Giants are not going to sign Manny. Why the heck is the Denver Post reporting this? Solid source for a California rumor... Los Doyers simply need a bidding partner. We wouldn't want to see a person with the name "Ned" somehow find a bargain.

Although we're not sure what team MANRAM will play for, one thing is for sure; he's going to rake.

And everyday that he doesn't have a contract, he will rake harder.

That's why I'm hoping the Yankees swoop back in at the end just out of SPITE.

It hell freezes over and Manny does somehow wear those ugly off-white uniforms my team sports, then watchout DOYER FANS, because MANNY loves to SPITE people!

I would prefer Manny on SF than him being on LA. If that happens though, SF will take the NL West and we'll have a new NL West champ for the 4th straight year (SD in 06, AZ in 07, LA in 08 and SF in 09). How whack is that?

I think we'll see at least a 4 team bidding regarding Manny because if his price is between the 10-20 mil rank a couple of other teams will bid as well. So you talk about LA, SF, a mystery team and then probably the Yankees swooping in and taking Manny!

P.S: Last sentence probably won't happen is just a wish I would like to have so we don't see Manny in the NL West.

Angels do seem like a good fit, they would pull the rug under the Doyers which would be a plus in the market. But with Vlad getting old (likely to take most of the DH ABs), and the dark cloud that is Gary Mathews contract, ManRam just doesn't seem like a fit. Especially with a defensively minded skipper.

Thinking of Gary Mathews Jr., remember Sabean offered him a contract??? Man, I cannot tell you how grateful I am to GMJr. for not taking it! And that goes for Juan Pierre and Carlos Lee.

http://cbs5.com/sports/giants.manny.ramirez.2.896827.html

Giants Offer Slugger Manny Ramirez 4-Year Deal?

Thanks, I just stumbled across it by accident. Hope Giants get him instead of Dodgers. I don't really want the Dodgers to make the playoffs after the Fucal incident.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3801716

Here's something fun to check out if any ones bored.

I especially liked:
jayson stark posted:

• BEWARE OF MAD DOG DEPT.: The only Padre to steal a base in the entire month of July was that world-famous base bandit, Greg Maddux.

Good stuff, wisebrave.