Olney On Trade Scenarios

Why would the Indians trade part of their rebuild for another young prospect? Thats ridiculous. If anything theyll trade numerous other players before they trade him.

If Boston is trading for anyone on the Indians, itll be Martinez but they seem unwilling to give up any of the young pitchers in their organization to get the deal done.

Tough call for Boston, Ortiz is the backbone and shoulders of that team and it seems that he is running out of gas.

As for Derosa to the Mets, good idea. I think the Mets could get him for one of their pitching prospects like maybe Niese or Kunz perhaps? It depends on how desparate they are.

Many Mets fans dont seem to think the Mets will let go of any of their prospects and that teams should be willing to just hand them decent players for nothing but the bottom line is, they need someone at 1B right now and teams know it so the Mets will have to dish out.

Doesn't a return to the Braves make sense for DeRosa. He can fill that hole in LF and even fill in for Chipper if he goes on the DL for an extended period of time. They have the pitching to make the deal. The Tribe matches up well with the Braves on many different players.

The purpose of a trade for the Indians would be to rebuild their pitching staff, which currently appears suspect. That said, they should not be motivated to move a cost-controlled power hitter.

Olney is simply floating a swap that features roughly equivalent value in terms of projection and relative needs, without actually addressing whether either team would be motivated to trade those particular pieces.

I would love to see Derosa back in a braves uni. Package Derosa and V-Mart to the Braves for SP/BP Prospects(Medlin/Locke/Morton/Redmond/Parr/Acosta/Valdez/Osuna) + Kotchman.

"Also, couldn't the Sox just turn to Lars Anderson if they needed a bat or trade for any other salary dump players if they needed a player to DH which could be any non-specific position player?"

Lars got off to a decent start in double-a Portland but has been horrid of late (minus one game where he hit 2 homeruns) and has been playing through some lower back pain. I'm not sure he will be a viable option anytime soon. He ran hot/cold in his brief double-a debut last year and he could easily get it going but I don't think he'll see any action this year beyond a possible September call-up. I imagine if they look internally it will be to see if Chris Carter can do anything as a DH.

LaPorta could be traded, but I'd rather not. LaPorta has more upside than Mills and Weglarz. I'd rather stick with the logjam and trade the vets (V-Mart, Garko).

How about DeRosa to the Brewers? He can play 2B. He can spell Gamel at 3B, because we all know about Gamel's glove (although with his bat, I live with his defense for now). Cardinals also makes sense, to play 2B.

"How about DeRosa to the Brewers? He can play 2B. He can spell Gamel at 3B, because we all know about Gamel's glove "

Brewers have enough depth at MI that they don't really need to make a trade. McGehee, Iribarren, Counsell, Hall, Escobar can all play 2B, some combination of those players will do fine.

Also there isn't anything wrong with Gamel's glove, he has shown above average range and good reflexes at 3B unlike Braun did.

Gamel just can't throw the ball to 1B on a consistent basis, that is where pretty much all of his problems are. That is why they still hold out hope that he'll stick at 3B but they gave up on Braun.

"I think the Indians trading LaPorta makes perfect sense. He is a 1B/DH in the future, I don't think his glove sticks in the OF at all. They need pitching a lot more than they need another 1B/DH type of bat."

Posted by: Ender | May 19, 2009 at 10:57 AM

I agree. The Indians have Hafner signed through 2012 and top power prospects Beau Mills and Nick Weglarz on the way. However, the Indians lack top of the rotation pitching prospects. I think that LaPorta is expendable for the right package of pitchers.

-----------

Yeah but there's "superb" value in having a cost controlled young player with tremendous upside like LaPorts. Meanwhile, the Indians have a few veterans on the younger side (28-30) that are team friendly in their salaries who could fetch multiple prospects. If LaPorta were traded it would probably be a 1 for 1 deal or maybe a case where the Indians might have to do a 2 for 1 if they want an elite pitching prospect. Vmart or Lee can fetch 2 or 3 elite prospects on their own and provide payroll relief that the Indians can use to attracts a FA this winter, or trade for a veteran as needed. Trading LaPorta simply would not make sense from the Indians perspective.
Also, if Boston were unwilling to trade Bucholz or Bard for a Texas catcher then I doubt they would do so for an unproven LF/1B prospect either.

DeRosa to STL makes a lot of sense. With all the injury trouble the Cards have had, they need a steady bat. DeRosa at third in the short term would be great. Plus, he is a LaRussa dream with his versatility. The problem is, the Cardinals don't seem inclined to take on payroll or trade prospects.

Posted by: White Rat | May 19, 2009 at 11:28 AM

____________________________

But the Cards (or Brewers for that matter) don't have the pitching that the Indians need.

Davis would fit nicely in Boston at DH and can also play both corner infield positions...but without the Sox willing to give up young pitching then its pointless to even think about.

"Trading LaPorta simply would not make sense from the Indians perspective. Also, if Boston were unwilling to trade Bucholz or Bard for a Texas catcher then I doubt they would do so for an unproven LF/1B prospect either."

Trading LaPorta may not make sense for various reasons, but it's not because he projects as indispensable. Warranted or not, the book on him is that he makes a better brick wall than an outfielder, and a better DH than a first baseman. For the Indians, it appears that elite pitching prospects have been more difficult for them to draft and develop than position players.

If Martinez, for example, could return two *elite* prospects, then it makes infinite sense to sell high on him and keep LaPorta. However, I'm not sure which team is going to offer up two such prospects for a DH/1B rental masquerading as a catcher.

As for Boston's reluctance to part with Buchholz or Bard for a Texas catcher, the only viable target was Saltalamacchia. In terms of relative value, Boston was reluctant to sell low on a talented pitching prospect when it appeared it might squeeze another year or two out of Varitek at only a monetary cost. That reluctance came even before both Buchholz and Bard exceeded expectations early this season, but it also came before David Ortiz played nearly 1/4 of the season as a walking corpse. The refusal to deal for a Texas catcher does not have any bearing on whether they are currently willing to deal for a potential impact bat.

To me a everyday quality positon player like Victor is worth as much if not more than a front line top of the rotation starter.

This what I would want back. 4 for 1

THE CENTER PIECE OF THE TRADE

Clay Buchholz - or Justin Masterson

Plus the below 3 top prospects
all in the top 10 red soxs prospects list

Daniel Bard -RHP - 23- Live arm with a smooth delivery. His fastball looks effortless, and sits around 96 mph with decent command and average movement. He can consistently hit 97-99 mph on the radar gun, and can reportedly get up to 101 mph when he reaches back. Bard also mixes in an 80-82 mph slider with some nice bite. His slider really keeps hitters off balance. It can also dip down to about 76-78 mph with more slurve action. He also has a few other pitches in his arsenal that aren't used very often, including a high 80s cutter, a low-90s two-seamer, and a circle change.

Nick Hagadone - LHP- 23- Big lefty whose fastball sits around 92-93 mph and generally tops out at 95 mph with very good life. Late in 2007, Hagadone reached back and was hitting 96-98 mph on the Lowell gun on several occasions. Aggressive, throws strikes and gets ahead in the count. Also mixes in a biting 82-83 mph plus slider, and a quickly improving 80-81 mph changeup. Very good control.

Casey Kelly - RHP - 19 - Kelly's skills are actually quite advanced for his age, mixing in a low 90s fastball, a hard 12-6 curveball, and a nice change, all with excellent command and control. Fastball has a nice sink to it, and generally sits between 88 and 92 mph. He probably could top out at 94 mph if he reached back, and he may be able to get up to that point regularly with some physical maturation. Smooth delivery. Keeps the ball low in the zone. Very good mound presence. Defensively, Kelly has excellent range and shows fluid movements in the field. Great glove and a strong, accurate arm.

Anything less would be a disappointment period.

Bonds to the Sox.

To trade Mark DeRosa to the Mets I would think it would take something like this.

One Of the Below

Jon Niese, LHP /Dillon Gee, RHP or Brad Holt, RHP

Plus A prospect like

Eddie Kunz or Wilmer Flores

I would think the Indians would perfer RHP's because they are loaded with soft tossing lefties throughout their system and major league level .

DeRosa isnt worth 2 grade A pitching prospects.

I would say an A grade pitching prospect like the ones you mentioned above + a B grade pitching prospect would get the deal done.

Yes Anderson is batting .233 but as my comment was meant, I think he needs some MLB at bats to further develop. Meaning that I feel if they gave him a taste in the show, he would have some more motivation.Posted by: xethicx | May 19, 2009 at 12:15 PM

How exactly do you think he can use this as motivations. All the peripheral stats say he was extremely lucky in AA last year. Struggling this year is not a dramatic shock. It is not a problem of motivation, it is a problem, like in most young hitters, of needing further development. Lars is not ready for the majors. His projected major league equivalent for this season would be a .195 BA with a .252 OBP for an OPS of .565. That is actually worse than Papi. So needless to say, Lars cannot be considered as a possible option at this point. he might not make it to AAA like most people expected of him this year.

As far as possible targets for the Sox, lets not forget that with Delgado surgery and Atl need of an impact bat, that the price for VMart will be much higher than people would expect.

I almost expect to see the Sox do a more low key move and hope for the best at this point.

Baseballnuts...just stop posting. Every post is dumber than the last. Who's your friend, the GM of a fantasy team? Seriously man, even if the Indians did offer that to Boston, of course Boston would turn that down...BECAUSE IT'S RIDICULOUS. Honestly, if shapiro was only interested in hard throwing righties, why did you suggest Dillon Gee and Eddie Kunz for Derosa? Gee barely touches 90, and has sub-standard stuff across the board. If you're gonna make up friends and rumors, try to at least do a little research on the guys the indians are looking at.

"why would Boston even be interested in LaPorta when Martinez is a much better option."

Because Martinez is not a better option when you factor in the likely asking price. You have one crazy ambassador proposing a 4-for-1 for Martinez -- a rental whose closest comparable through age 29, according to baseball-reference.com, is Rich Aurilia. If you want Martinez-like production, you could probably wrangle Jack Cust a wee bit more cheaply.

Boston have a 3B prospect? Oakland would definitely be interested in one.

nrmax...agreed 100%. I don't think the need for the mets to trade for a 1st baseman is that great. If Delgado is getting ready to come back around the trade deadline, it really doesn't make sense for NY to get another big time 1st baseman. If he has complications, then the Mets will still be in position to make a move. It also gives them more of a chance to evaluate Ollie, and see where Wagner is in his rehab. I don't think there is much doubt that the Mets will be buyers at the deadline, it doesn't make any sense to use chips now to get mediocre players.

Teams that are selling also realize that waiting is better for them. Injuries happen between now and the deadline, and teams can get better value when there are more bidders.

On a side note, I love all these proposed trades that have teams swapping big time prospects with each other. When does that ever happen? I can't think of a single time it has happened with guys without some MLB experience. It just doesn't happen, teams generally value their prospects more than other teams do, so throwing in a Lars Anderson to get another 1st base prospect in return, or the Indians adding Beau Mills to a deal to get another pitching prospect from Boston will never happen. It's funny that things like that keep being suggested...it only happens in video games.

@ maximumpotential,They have 3 in their top 40 and only Jimenez is at the AA level.

Michael Almanzar
http://soxprospects.com/players/almanzar-michael.htm
Jorge Jimenez
http://soxprospects.com/players/jimenez-jorge.htm
Will Middlebrooks
http://soxprospects.com/players/middlebrooks-will.htm

If I'm the Indians I probably hold on to Garko simply because he can play 1b and if and he's cheap. Makes sense to trade the more expensive vets rather than the low cost and under control players like DeRosa, Shoo, Shoppack or Cabrera. No telling when Hafner will be available and Garko is a better 1B than either Hafner or LaPorta.

I would argue that Sizemore is the heart and soul of that team. Regardless, "heart and soul" has nothing to do with a baseball decision, especially IF the Indians are 15 gms under .500 by the all-star break. Plus he's a FA after 2010 and I seriously doubt the Indians will pay fair market value for him. That being the case his value is at his highest if he's traded this year as opposed to sometime in 2010. 1 1/2 of Vmart is more than just a rental IMO.

Trading Martinez RIGHT NOW makes the most sense. His value will never be higher then what it is not and what it will be this trade deadline. Reason for that is that he has a very reasonable option for '10 and is absolutely on fire. This tells me that if the Indians don't trade Victor Martinez come July trade deadline, he will not be dealt at all and will most likely be resigned long term at some point in the offseason or sometime next year.

How about if some of these teams really want help from some of the Cleveland players, they eaither make offers worth listening to for guys like Martinez, Shoppach, Lee, LaPorta, and so on. Other than that, Indians should look to move guys like Garko, Dellucci, DeRosa, and even pitchers like Pavano and Kerry Wood.

However, dealing Wood is pretty much saying "we're not competing this year". I think if the Indians are more than 10 games out of first place by July 31, they deal him for prospects. Call me crazy, but why not if the season is all but over? Same goes with Pavano who is on a one year deal and is pitching pretty well. He could help some contender as well.

Ilulic, it seems like you're arguing not to trade Wood, bevause it's sayin we're not competing this year. But at the same time you want to trade Martinez, which says to me they plan to be rebuilding next year as well as this year. What is your plan?

Okay, so if the Indians are interested in trading LaPorta, what about trading him for Matt Cain? The Indians need pitching and the Giants need power offense. A multiplayer-deal centered around those two would make complete sense and would actually work out for both teams. Age also becomes a bypassed issue, since they are both 24. Plus, both players could immediately help out their new clubs this season and possibly beyond.

Any thoughts on that?

Horrible?

Cain is their 2nd best pitcher and a legit front of the rotation pitcher. Giants would never consider trading Cain for unproven players. If they were it would have to rape the Indians farm of at least 3 or 4 really good prospects.

By the way, I'd doubt that the Indians are interested in trading Laporta. The idea was tossed out there by Buster Olney, who's helping to prove what a joke "the best team in baseball" really is. Between Ravich, Morgan, Kruk, Olney, and Steve Phillips, ESPN should market it as "The Most Hot Air in Baseball". I'll watch baseball tonight, but it's certainly not for their wonderful insight.

"Can I give a reasonable trade scenario?
Bowden + Masterson/Delcarmen
= V Mart + Carlos Santana

Pitching for the tribe, Dh and catcher of the future for the BoSox"

Both of those guys probably couldn't get V Mart by himself, and especially not with Santana in the deal. Another top 20 prospect would probably need to be in there to get Martinez. If they get Martinez, they would probably have him at catcher to fill that hole, so having Santana in that deal would be redundant.

Cain puts up pretty good peripherals, but I'd hardly call him a legit front line starter. His Whip has steadily gotten worse in his 5 seasons, and his HR/9, K/9, and BB/9 are all career worsts right now. He's a good pitcher, a solid #3, and a decent #2, but he's not a #1 by any stretch. That said, he's worth more than Laporta straight up, but not worth "raping the indian's farm".
----------

To me a front of the rotation starter means a #1 or #2. Cain is a #1 on a bad team and a good #2 on a good team. His walks are up this year but he mas managed to keep the ball in the bark. Of his 6 hrs allowd in 8 starts 3 of them came in 1 game against Colorado in Denver. Wipe that came out and he's only allowed 3 hrs in 45 innings. He's also limited his hit allowed as he's only given up 44 in 51 IP. His control has always been a little iffy but he's pitched his way out of trouble indicative by his 2.65 ERA.

Cain puts up pretty good numbers in one of the best pitching parks in the major's. He get's to face quite possibly the worst division in baseball, definately the worst offensive division in baseball. You stick him in the AL, and he's AL east, NL central, NL east, or AL central and he's a number 2 at the very best.

Cain puts up pretty good numbers in one of the best pitching parks in the major's. He get's to face quite possibly the worst division in baseball, definately the worst offensive division in baseball. You stick him in the AL, and he's AL east, NL central, NL east, or AL central and he's a number 2 at the very best.
-------------

Aren't we arguing semantics here? I did say front of the rotation kinda guy. A #2 would be that. So basically you just said that if he played in any other division in baseball he would be a #2...a front of rotation kinds guy.

On another note, I live in Cleveland and have pretty much stopped paying attention to Indians games but Cliff Lee has turned his season around. 7 straight starts with at least 6 IP but less than 3 runs allowed.

86 Mets, I don't think you understood what I was saying. I, personally, would not trade either guy, Wood or Martinez, if I knew there was a chance I might compete throughout 2009 or at all in 2010. But that's nearly impossible to tell. So, if I'm the Indians, I'd consider making any trade if it will make the team better in the long run. If Kerry Wood can land me a few guys that will be able to help the club in the near future, why not? But if I do that, I'd also deal Martinez and completely reload on talent. Although the system is stacked as is, I'd try to get as many top pitching prospects as possible.

But who knows what Shapiro will do. Knowing him, I don't think he will trade either Martinez or Wood. Only guys I could see him deal are possibly Cliff Lee (the package has to make a lot of sense and that also means that he knew he couldn't resign him), Ryan Garko, Mark DeRosa, Jamey Carrol, Ben Francisco, David Dellucci(not sure what his value is at this point), Rafael Betancourt, Rafael Perez(if he could straighten himself out), Carl Pavano, and Jeremy Sowers.

The Indians could use some young pitching, but I don't see LaPorta going anywhere... He has plenty of upside, and there are so many other trade candidates. Lee, V-Mart, or DeRosa could fetch some decent arms. It's clear that this will be a rebuilding year for the Tribe, I don't see how they would want to move LaPorta given the current situation.