Theo Epstein Rumors: Tuesday

The latest on the Cubs' attempt to add Red Sox GM Theo Epstein to their front office…

  • Epstein is actively looking to hire a general manager to join him in Chicago, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. The 37-year-old is exploring GM candidates while he waits for the Red Sox and Cubs to work out compensation for his departure. The Cubs would bring Epstein in as their president of baseball operations and he would hire a general manager to assist with the daily grind of the job.
  • The Red Sox are "holding tough" on their asking price and don't anticipate resolution tonight, according to Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe (on Twitter).
  • Hoyer told Marty Caswell of XX1090 Sports Radio that he's not going to comment on media speculation (Twitter links).  "I'm excited about what we continue to build here in San Diego," he said. 
  • The Cubs haven't asked for permission to talk to any Padres executives, according to Dan Hayes of the North County Times (Twitter link).
  • Carrie Muskat of MLB.com points out that obtaining Hoyer could prove difficult, as he is under contract through 2013 with an option for 2014 (Twitter link).  But Tom Krasovic of Inside the Padres doubts owner Jeff Moorad would hold up a deal if it meant Byrnes became the Padres' next GM (Twitter link).
  • Current Padres GM Jed Hoyer is being considered by the Cubs and Epstein, tweets SI's Jon Heyman.  In that scenario, Josh Byrnes would become the Padres' GM.  Heyman notes that the Cubs are also looking at Padres executives Byrnes and Jason McLeod for themselves, should Hoyer stay.  All the executives were once members of the Boston front office with Epstein.
  • Yesterday we learned that the Red Sox started out the Epstein compensation discussions by asking the Cubs for righty Matt Garza, which CSNNE.com's Sean McAdam says was "rejected out of hand."  Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe says that "the sides slowly have moved their position to a more realistic center" as they discuss Cubs prospects.  
  • Cafardo says the Red Sox have been focusing on Trey McNutt, Brett Jackson, Matt Szczur, and Josh Vitters, the latter three labeled as unlikely by Patrick Mooney of CSNChicago.com yesterday.  McNutt and Andrew Cashner are unlikely as well, writes Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune, while McAdam says McNutt's inclusion is "far from guaranteed at this point."
  • An announcement today has been ruled out, writes McAdam, with "significant work" remaining to reach an agreement on compensation.  He says Friday's World Series off-day is the earliest possibility, assuming the teams come to terms and get Bud Selig's permission for an announcement.  McAdam says that although progress has been made, the Cubs feel that precedent calls for minimal compensation while the Sox think this situation defies precedent.
  • McAdam writes that the issue of Epstein taking Red Sox employees with him is not an issue, with a mutual understanding in place that he will not raid Boston's baseball operations department. 
  • Most reports, including this one from Gordon Wittenmyer of the Chicago Sun-Times, suggest that the five-year, $18.5MM deal between Epstein and the Cubs is not in jeopardy.  Still, as Cafardo notes, both teams have a lot of team-building to do.    


Leave a Reply

473 Comments on "Theo Epstein Rumors: Tuesday"


drodd
3 years 10 months ago

Epstein = Roberts = Peavy

brian310
3 years 10 months ago

what?

sourbob
3 years 10 months ago

He’s saying Epstein may be the next sure-thing-about-to-be-announced that the Cubs have to let go.

Rabbitov
3 years 10 months ago

This situation is actually hilarious let me try to explain why.

If Hendry was with the Cubs, giving up a prospect would be an easy trigger-happy, no-brainer, but because this is a trade for the guy who is replacing Hendry and Hendry is gone, its become incredibly dicey.  

At least I find that hilarious.  Actually if Theo was GM overseeing the situation he might be more trigger-happy too, except that it would be his farm system and he’d essentially be giving up the player for himself and therefore gaining nothing for himself but ::head explodes::

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

I AM NOT WORTH A B PROSPECT YOU FOOLS

brian310
3 years 10 months ago

ohh yeah that makes sense. I’m even from Chicago and when I saw Roberts i couldn’t think of who it was at first haha yeah I’m a White Sox fan and I’m definitely not looking forward to the next couple of years…

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

Oh good.

ironnat
3 years 10 months ago

The compensation should be what Boston should send to Chicago for relieving them from paying the last year of Epstein’s contract and the vesting bonus.  $160,257,476 payroll and doesn’t even make the playoffs.  The clubhouse seems a shambles and the team in disarray.  Players looking to bail.  Breaking the bambino’s curse seemed more a factor of spending until they won one rather then good management.  Seems Epstein should fit pretty well in Chicago.

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

Compensation should be whatever a lousy organization is foolish enough to give.

imachainsaw
3 years 10 months ago

exactly, they should be putting themselves in the cubs position and see what they’d give.

3 years 10 months ago

Do you know how negotiating works? Because that’s not it…

MikhelB
3 years 10 months ago

Actually, negotiations do start with the premise of “what would i NOT give them if I were them?”, “what would my reaction be if they ask for my best prospects if i were them?”, that way, they can create various scenarios and know beforehand how to act when you ask them for somebody/something and they say no.

3 years 10 months ago

They were in the Cubs’ position in 2002.  And their opinion was that fair compensation for the Athletics letting Billy Beane out of the SIX remaining years of his contract was allegedly a minor leaguer named Kevin Youkilis who had only been drafted the year before. Beane decided to stay in Oakland, which led to Epstein as Boston’s GM.

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

Compensation should be whatever a lousy organization is foolish enough to give.

Guest
3 years 10 months ago

W.T.F

3 years 10 months ago

“And will throw in a snickers bar to sweeten up the deal a bit…” -Ben Cherington

Afam
3 years 10 months ago

This is getting crazy.if we dont get at mcnut, or flaherty,i say we tell to the cubs to go pound sand and walk away.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

now that we have the “gangsta rapper’s” take on this lets go pound sand and hire someone else like JOSH BYRNES or JED HOYER or RICK HAHN to be our GM untill Theo is released from his toxic working environment in Boston.

Minorityfanbasewannabe
3 years 10 months ago

I think you’re getting a little over excited there. The Red Sox front office had never been described as “toxic”, it sounds like the clubhouse was the thing in trouble. Also you have to remember that the Boston media has been the one doing all the reporting. They have always been as mean spirited as possible so it’s a very good chance that all of these things are being blown out of proportion. 

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

In point of fact, players have no gone on record saying that the problem was that Francona essentially too soft on them and that’s it. Lester himself basically validated the Francona situation. They were in the clubhouse eating chicken and drinking a beer in the ninth when the Sox were far and away the best team in the AL. There’s nothing to indicate that the problem was anything other than a lack of respect for Francona.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

In point of fact, players have no gone on record saying that the problem was that Francona essentially too soft on them and that’s it. Lester himself basically validated the Francona situation. They were in the clubhouse eating chicken and drinking a beer in the ninth when the Sox were far and away the best team in the AL. There’s nothing to indicate that the problem was anything other than a lack of respect for Francona.

MikhelB
3 years 10 months ago

So… that time when Theo walked out dressed as a gorilla because his relation with Lucchino reached an all time low, doesn’t count? nor it counts the fact that they don’t talk anymore since Henry gave his support to Lucchino and not to Epstein? Even Henry aknowledged it when he talked about Epstein and how he was ready to call it quits from the Bosox as soon as his contract ran out.

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

Please do.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

I truely wish the cubs would move on to 1 of the 3 on my previous list.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

I truely wish the cubs would move on to 1 of the 3 on my previous list.

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

You still have the same problem, Cubbie, the first 2 are under contract with another organization.  So pay the Padres or the Red Sox, you are still gonna pay.

Heres and idea cubbies, maybe you should hire someone who is not the property of another MLB franchise. 

I love that Cubs fans thinks they can just toss a contract out the window, beg a team to let them talk to that contracted employee and then turn around and act like tough guys.

imachainsaw
3 years 10 months ago

when was there begging involved? the reports stated that the cubs requested permission to speak to theo and the red sox allowed it. does the real story not work for your purpose?

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

That’s a point dude has been missing over the last week. He acts as if someone stole the pooty tang.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

That’s a point dude has been missing over the last week. He acts as if someone stole the pooty tang.

Jeff Jones
3 years 10 months ago

Yes let the Cubs pound sand, and Theo will be so toxic no other team will consider him for president/GM and Theo gets 7.5 million from the Sox to do nothing and Theo finds a new job next year and Sox get no compensation.

smairs
3 years 10 months ago

Jeff…you are missing the point….$7.5M is nothing to the Sox ownership….look at the money they eat on contracts that they have traded away (Reneria, Lugo, ect)…so lets get off this hump and move forward….this is chump change to the Redsox…and if they don’t get compensation that they feel is deserving….they will hold this up. The Cubs need to determine what it is it worth to having their #1 man lead them this year.

smairs
3 years 10 months ago

Jeff…you are missing the point….$7.5M is nothing to the Sox ownership….look at the money they eat on contracts that they have traded away (Reneria, Lugo, ect)…so lets get off this hump and move forward….this is chump change to the Redsox…and if they don’t get compensation that they feel is deserving….they will hold this up. The Cubs need to determine what it is it worth to having their #1 man lead them this year.

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

and the Cubs agreement with Theo will be null and void and Chicago will have to compete for his services in the open market.

Yeah, thats a fantastic scenario for the Cubs.  No GM for 2012 and then a bidding war with the Dodgers, Orioles, etc. etc. to sign him because you didn’t want to give up 1) a lefty reliever on the last year of his contract, 2) a starting pitcher who will do nothing to help the franchise outside of compensatory draft picks, 3) a host of overrated, unproven prospects.

You guys should of just gave em Sean Marshall and walked away knowing you wouldn’t have resigned him anyways.  The worst case scenario is that the Red Sox get two draft picks that cannot help them till after 2015.

I am confused Cubbies, do you want Theo?

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

Who is to say the Dodgers or Orioles will be bidding for his sevices next year? Who is to say that he WANTS to GM the Orioles anyway?

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

Who is to say the Dodgers or Orioles will be bidding for his sevices next year? Who is to say that he WANTS to GM the Orioles anyway?

swan ronson
3 years 10 months ago

i’ll agree with the confused part.

johnsilver
3 years 10 months ago

You do realize Boston paid wrent-a-wreck’s last 3 years (most of it) to play somewhere else, plus got nearly nothing back and dumped Lugo and paid his last 10m for the final year. i doubt a “lousy” 7.5m would hurt Henry and his financial situation as much as it would the Cub’s hold up on any GM right now.

johnsilver
3 years 10 months ago

You do realize Boston paid wrent-a-wreck’s last 3 years (most of it) to play somewhere else, plus got nearly nothing back and dumped Lugo and paid his last 10m for the final year. i doubt a “lousy” 7.5m would hurt Henry and his financial situation as much as it would the Cub’s hold up on any GM right now.

3 years 10 months ago

This is a great idea…Boston can pay Epstein’s salary for 2012 as well as any additional stuff in his contract to do what exactly? He’s already been replaced so he has no job title. So basically you think Boston’s smartest move is to have a $4 million seat warmer?  Not to mention how much credibility the Red Sox front office would lose for treating one of the most respected GMs in baseball that way.  Assuming you’re a Boston fan, it would be the equivalent to Henry deciding to take down the Green Monster and replace it with a giant video screen and product endorsements.

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

That’s BS.  I’d be very happy to watch Epstein sit out a year and listen to the Cubs and him cry about how we were unreasonable.  Cough up some serious compensation.  I personally think its time for Lucchino to just walk out, and let the Cubs whine.

3 years 10 months ago

You’d be happy because you’re not the one who’d have to pay someone $3 million to do nothing for a year.  Drop the 3 million and SIGN some serious compensation!

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

The Sox approach the luxury tax threshold every single year, they’re going to sign free agents up to that point with or without the Cubs’ cash. That $3 million is lining Henry’s pocket if he accepts it and as a fan, I will be absolutely disgusted if he jumps for it. Go back to the early reports of the deal when writers were claiming the Sox were looking for cash instead of prospects, I immediately voiced my disgust with that concept and I wouldn’t be alone.

Mark it from an actual fan of the team: more Sox fans will be angry if the Sox accept money rather than actual players for Epstein. The former makes Henry look like a greedy owner, the latter makes him look like a stern negotiator who was unwilling to accept a deal he did not feel improved the team.

3 years 10 months ago

In my opinion, if it comes down to improving the team, I don’t think I grant the Cubs permission in the first place.  And since I think there a lot of similarities between Cubs fans and Sox fans, you might all be angry, but you’ll still be there next year cheering and yelling as much as any other.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

I wonder how the latest drama plays out to perspective free agents and employees? Between the Epstein issue and the comments made about Crawford they are looking like a$$holes.

notsureifsrs
3 years 10 months ago

“$140M? sounds good, but i heard you are sometimes kinda rude to people after making them filthy rich and winning championships with them, so…no thanks”

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

Ok…maybe $140 mil will consul some people. However, if it’s a matter of $140 give or take $5 to $10 mil, who knows?

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

I wonder how the latest drama plays out to perspective free agents and employees? Between the Epstein issue and the comments made about Crawford they are looking like a$$holes.

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

LOL. we’ve eaten contracts nearly 3 times the size of Epstein’s.  Pass the margerine.  We’ll do it again, no problem.  Pay up, welcher.

3 years 10 months ago

You’d be happy because you’re not the one who’d have to pay someone $3 million to do nothing for a year.  Drop the 3 million and SIGN some serious compensation!

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

“one of the most respected GMs in baseball”.  He was hired when he was 28.  He was a nobody then.  He owes everything to Red Sox.  Tired of hearing how ‘he’s being disrespected, etc.’.   

To his credit, I havent heard Theo say a bad thing about his current status.   How bout letting the process take its course.  Dragging on the process is Red Sox strategy, it only servers to boost their return (they couldve accepted whatever the Cubs 1st offer was).  But you run the risk of Cubs walking away.  Its a poker game.  Let it play out.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

a poker game that boston will lose
you are a fool

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

Thx, great insight.

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

Having no GM for 2012, a month before Free Agency starts seems worse than a team who won 90+ games, a replacement GM already inked and has won in the past Century.

I guess your definition of “losing” is by Chicago Cubs standards.

3 years 10 months ago

Oh, how quickly we forget what it’s like to still have a curse… It was also Boston’s standards up until ’04.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

What major free agents are going to be signed by the Cubs this year again? Much, MUCH more important to have the right GM in place by 2013 when the star power is MUCH higher. My guess is that 2012 would be a wash and if anything the plan would be to dump as many bad contracts as possible and try out the young guys in 2012. Not really an issue (free agency).

TheHotCorner
3 years 10 months ago

You win a World Series after how many years and all of the sudden you’re better then everyone else?  Please.  If I was a Red Sox fan I would tell you to go find another team to cheer for.

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

We’re not better than “everyone else,” but we are better than the Cubs.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

a poker game that boston will lose
you are a fool

3 years 10 months ago

I agree that Epstein came out of nowhere, but I think it’s more accurate to say he owes the opportunity to the Red Sox.  If the success and everything is all owed to the Red Sox, then why does Epstein even matter and why couldn’t the Red Sox win before that?

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

Actually, he owes everything to Larry Lucchino.  Lucchino hired him as an intern out of Yale while Lucchino ran the Orioles.  When Lucchino decided to leave to run the Padres, he offered Theo his first paying job in baseball with the Pads.  Theo got his law degree at night in San Diego, while under Larry’s employ.  Larry further brought Theo with him when Larry joined Henry’s ownership group to buy the Sox.  And now, Larry is supposedly the d*ckhead for demanding compensation for Theo’s bailing on him.  After more than a decade of mentoring, and everything that Theo knows about baseball is directly attributable to Lucchino, Larry’s the d*ckhead for seeking compensation.  That is so laughable, its outrageous.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

Why does it matter how old he was or that he was a “nobody”? He paid his dues and  earned the respective level he’s at now? Just because someone gave you a shot that indentures you to them for life? 

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

Its far more than just paying his dues.  Theo was mentored up from an intern by Lucchino.  Everything, and I mean absolutely everything, the kid knows about baseball is the direct result of mentoring by Lucchino.  Sure, he has innate abilities, but Lucchino is the one who recognized it and nutured it.  He would not be a GM today if it wasn’t for Larry.  Its not indenturing, but there is a payback for walking away having taken advantage of all that nuturing.  The guy who plants the tree on his own land, waters it, and feeds it, is the one entitled to the fruit.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

Why does it matter how old he was or that he was a “nobody”? He paid his dues and  earned the respective level he’s at now? Just because someone gave you a shot that indentures you to them for life? 

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

“one of the most respected GMs in baseball”.  He was hired when he was 28.  He was a nobody then.  He owes everything to Red Sox.  Tired of hearing how ‘he’s being disrespected, etc.’.   

To his credit, I havent heard Theo say a bad thing about his current status.   How bout letting the process take its course.  Dragging on the process is Red Sox strategy, it only servers to boost their return (they couldve accepted whatever the Cubs 1st offer was).  But you run the risk of Cubs walking away.  Its a poker game.  Let it play out.

3 years 10 months ago

 The Sox should just walk the hell away. Other teams get multiple players as compensation for  hiring someone from another team–and the Cubs are balking on a couple of minor leaguers who may never see the majors?  WALK, Sox. Let Ricketts eat…….

3 years 10 months ago

SOX will eat CROW in the long run!  They are overboard and it will bite them in the A$% and the Cubs will walk!  Dont walk Tom…..RUN!

Minorityfanbasewannabe
3 years 10 months ago

This makes no sense at all. Period. 

chico65
3 years 10 months ago

I’m guessing it’s connor, or Dave is 13 and has some weird triangle going.

3 years 10 months ago

Henry never gave a crap about winning after 2007, he only wanted to fill seats.

Ben_Cherington
3 years 10 months ago

Guess what fills the seats?

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Having spent plenty of time at Fenway, I believe the answer you’re looking for is “people that weigh less than 180 lbs on average.”

John DiRienzo
3 years 10 months ago

lmao. i’m at 175, but my older brother is legit 375 and i always feel so bad taking him to Sox games when he’s visiting me in the city. i buy him as many beers as i can to help him get through the game with minimal discomfort.

but in response to GM Cherington, though i agree with the point i think you’re making, the Sox have no problem filling the seats and never have.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

I have a few friends on the larger side. We tend to go for roof deck SRO.

John DiRienzo
3 years 10 months ago

yeah, standing room is usually our go-to now

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

I have a few friends on the larger side. We tend to go for roof deck SRO.

John DiRienzo
3 years 10 months ago

lmao. i’m at 175, but my older brother is legit 375 and i always feel so bad taking him to Sox games when he’s visiting me in the city. i buy him as many beers as i can to help him get through the game with minimal discomfort.

but in response to GM Cherington, though i agree with the point i think you’re making, the Sox have no problem filling the seats and never have.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 10 months ago

“Well……my son won’t be going to Boston, if I have anything to say about it”.

C.Fielder

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

That was below the belt.

Nah, I’m just kidding, Prince Fielder has no use for a belt.

(This is now officially the complete MLBTR thread. Pointless sniping, Yankees fans yelling at Red Sox fans, Red Sox fans yelling at Yankees fans, fans of other teams telling them both that they suck and also fat jokes)

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

That was below the belt.

Nah, I’m just kidding, Prince Fielder has no use for a belt.

(This is now officially the complete MLBTR thread. Pointless sniping, Yankees fans yelling at Red Sox fans, Red Sox fans yelling at Yankees fans, fans of other teams telling them both that they suck and also fat jokes)

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

Matthew has a point though. Wrigley is a tourist destination, more so than Fenway. The draw of Wrigley has been extremely damaging to our bottom line, which should be winning. If you can turn a profit, there is no real incentive to develop a consistent contender. On the plus side, you do get money to spend on guys. That’s where Hendry failed, he just didn’t have a good sense of advanced scouting and any kind of “modern” baseball thinking. Thusly, he went after Soriano, and traded away DeRosa because we “needed” a left-handed bat, which is the most glaring example of a lack of modern baseball understanding.

I don’t think he didn’t care about winning, I really think he wanted to win badly in Chicago. He just wasn’t experienced enough in those two areas and therefore took too many risks, and that’s why the Cubs are where they are now. I don’t think you need to rely heavily on sabermetrics to be successful in major league baseball, but if you don’t have a strong scouting department, you better rely on something to at least somewhat make up for that. Hendry was oblivious to both of those aspects of the greatest game in the world.

Ben_Cherington
3 years 10 months ago

Henry, not Hendry.  Great points, just a bit off though

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

Actually, it’s Hendry, Mr. Cherington.

Kirk Vance
3 years 10 months ago

The comment you were replying to was referring to John Henry, not Jim Hendry.

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

Got it. I can’t keep track any more. There are too many similarities. People need to use first names… but I stand corrected.

It’s like a damn competition for last place here.

Ben_Cherington
3 years 10 months ago

Actually its HENRY, Mr. P. BOOM!

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

Yeah, you got me. I got all turned around because of the similarities in that original statement.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Cherington.

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

Actually, it’s Hendry, Mr. Cherington.

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

Wrigley is tourist destination, more so than Fenway.  Its like saying the beaches are nicer in Cali than Florida.  You may be right, but only by the smallest margin.  Fenway fills whether winners are on the field or not.  Ive lived in Midwest (quad cities) and Boston, and I can tell you Boston is much more a baseball town.  Midwest much more football and anything college.  But in Boston when Sox are winning alot more money made on peripherals (jersies, advertising, etc.), than you’ll find in Chicago.  If Cubs were to be winning in August, it would no doubt be a big deal in Chicago.  But there would be a decent percent of sports fans waiting on the Bears to start.

101andCounting
3 years 10 months ago

You lived in the Quad Cities, dude. That ain’t Chicago. That’s like saying living in Providence, Rhode Island is the same thing as living in Boston. 

If you have any sources for anything you just said, I’d love to see them, because it all sounds like ignorant BoSox homerism to me. Lame.

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

Reread my post. I never said I lived in Chicago.

People in Prov RI have a very good idea of what Boston is about. Their favorite teams are usually Boston. Yeah think most Rhodies have visited Fenway or Foxboro past couple of yrs. And could comment very well on Boston sports scene.

So other than geography lesson, was I wrong. Chicago isnt more about Da Bears, Illini or NW? Please

3 years 10 months ago

Have you been in Chicago during baseball season? Or tried to get anywhere on the El during a White Sox or Cubs game?  It’s a lot harder then when people are trying to get to the spaceship that crashed and destroyed Soldier Field.  Especially when it comes to the Cubs. How many teams do Cubs fans consider rivals? All of them.  I don’t think Chicago is any more football-crazy than most places.  Maybe you’re confusing it with Wisconsin and the Packers and Badgers…

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

Nope.  Im equating it to trying to get a baseball conversation with anyone in Moline.  It would always flip to football or college basketball right after the long yawn.  You wont have that problem anywhere in New England.  Im talking bout everyone wearing college and bears apparel (which by the way was the point i was originally making).  You have to be in downtown chicago to see cubs or white sox apparel.  Soon as you get out of the city,  its all football.  Go up to Maine and talk baseball, you wont shut them up.  

By the way, what does a poor subway system have to do with how popular a team is?

3 years 10 months ago

I see your point about New England, and I suppose the reference to the El really just supports your argument that the Baseball is primarily important only out to the near suburbs.

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

Ty m8.  Not dissing Chicago sports.  They got awesome sports.  But theres so much of it.  Theres no college sports in NE (really wish there was).  One thing I took back with me was party atmosphere on Saturdays in the fall.  Also Illini had some awesome Basketball teams during the years I was there.  To this day I like college basketball better than pros because of it.

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

Chicago is more about Da Bears than any other team. Don’t listen to people that try to dispute it. I honestly think the Bulls are bigger than our baseball teams too, but that might have something to do with D-Rose and the fact that our baseball teams aren’t very good right now.

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

I think Bears bigger than Pats (if they werent winning so much)
Illini and Northwestern way bigger than Boston College and ______ (whatever other boston area college team)
Bulls bigger than Celtics

So does this mean that Chicago bigger sports fans in every sport.  Please get off your high horse.

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

Hehe. I think the Bears are bigger in Chicago than the Pats are in Boston, with the Red Sox being bigger in Boston than the Cubs are in Chicago. If that makes sense. I’m not going to get in to which fan base is better though.

College football is not big in Chicago though, I think hockey beats college ball. There are really no good college teams around, and it’s a major city with all 4 major sports teams. I’d say it’s about even when it comes to Boston and Chicago college interest.

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

Yeah, it seems all you guys care about is proving how big your fanbase is.  

Just wondering, is there a force field around Chicago.  Cause you guys think a fanbase only runs as far as the transit system.  You can drive for 5hrs in NE, and they still wanna talk Red Sox.  (and the population is alot thicker around here). Drive 5hrs into Iowa and see if they wanna talk baseball.

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

Don’t lump everybody together. There are plenty of obnoxious Red Sox fans who think that the entire baseball landscape exists between NYC and Boston.

Bears, Cubs and Bulls have a strong national following. If you had gone to the Cubs-Red Sox in May this year, you would have seen that they have just as big of a reach as the “Red Sox Nation.” But yes, regionally, I think the Red Sox draw stronger interest than the Cubs. But a very successful decade will do that.

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

This started with someone claiming that the cubs can fill seats even without a winning team.  Implying Sox cant.  That is completely off mark.  There have been lots of bad teams here over the years.  But with such a far reaching fan base (and these fans will travel on a regular basis from VT or ME, just ask Steven King).  The stands have always been full here.  

Then I got blasted for having the nerve to say I might have a little insight living in Quad Cities for a while, and they could care less about baseball in general.  That Red Sox Nation (name i hate) reaches further distances on a fan level (people who sit on the porch in the evening listening to a baseball game on a radio, or traveling 100 miles to see their team not just to visit a stadium with pretty ivory walls).  And not some clown in California who buys a Cubs or Red Sox cap cause he thinks its cool.  

Fanbase doesnt stop 30 miles from a town, just because it helps make an argument.

And “lump everybody”? whered that come from.  Nice changeup.

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

I’m not disagreeing with you. Thus, don’t lump everyone together. I was simply agreeing with you by saying that Chicago cares more about football than baseball.

What I said earlier is that because the Cubs fan base is NOT quite as good as the Red Sox right now, our seats are filled more by tourists currently. Hardly a compliment to the Cubs or a slight to the Red Sox.

Take it easy, buddy.

3 years 10 months ago

Watch any Cubs away game and pay attention to how many Cubs caps, shirts, jerseys, etc are in the crowd. Cubs fans are everywhere.

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

oh that settles it then, theres never any red sox fans at their away games.  ridiculous

Dan R.
3 years 10 months ago

I understand your point about the BoSox & New England vs. the Cubs & the midwest. You are comparing apples to oranges. New England has one team-the Red Sox. The Midwest has the Cubs, White Sox, Brewers, Tigers, Twins, Cardinals, Reds and Royals. With no disrespect intended, by far the most followed frachises in the midwest are the Cubs and Cardinals. In my home state of Illinois, we have three teams that are followed religiously: the Cubs & W. Sox (in the north) & as you travel south Cub nation slowly fades in to Cardinal nation.
I am not trying to run New England down, but the BoSox have cornered the market there. The Cubs have A LOT more competition in the region. So to say New England is more of a baseball place than the midwest because there are more BoSox stuff, doesn’t really paint the whole picture.
When there is a winning product, baseball is big. But because it doesn’t happen with regularity, who knows what would happen. 

3 years 10 months ago

I was specifically responding to you saying: 

“Yeah, it seems all you guys care about is proving how big your fanbase is.  Just wondering, is there a force field around Chicago.  Cause you guys think a fanbase only runs as far as the transit system.  You can drive for 5hrs in NE, and they still wanna talk Red Sox.”

I wasn’t saying the Red Sox only have fans in Boston, just that there is obvious proof that the Cubs don’t only have fans in Chiago.

Bobby P
3 years 10 months ago

California has better beaches, by far.

Anyway, I agree that both are a big tourist draw. But from personal experience of numerous games at Wrigley and just 4-5 games at Fenway Park, I still consider the Sox fans better baseball people. Also, Red Sox are consistent winners despite all the belly aching by some fans. It’s nice to be relevant in September. That clearly leads to a stronger interest, like you said. Also, the biggest reason I say that Wrigley is a bigger non-baseball draw is that Chicago is a split baseball city with the White Sox. Wrigley still takes in over 3 million people every year despite a miserable time since 2008.

It’s still hard to say with the costs being what they are. Not every true Cubs/Red Sox fan makes enough money for season tickets or even regular tickets.

Dan R.
3 years 10 months ago

Chicago also has something Boston does not currently have, a second MLB team. That is important to note. Fans of the Cubs & the White Sox get along together as well as fans of the Red Sox & Yankees. When the Cubs are winning, there is NOTHING like it (trust me, as a die hard Cubfan, we’re not used to winning. So when it happens, we go all in!-Sorry W. Sox for “appropriating” your seasons marketing campaign phrase.)
As a Cubfan from the southside of Chicago, I’ve noticed that there only two things that please White Sox fans, winning and (possibly more important) trashing the Cubs.
With all due respect to the BoSox fans, I’ve heard great things about you. We are somewhat like kindred spirits-in a Baseball perspective, that is. So I can not compare what its like in Boston when their Sox are winning. But I do know for sure that the Cubs do get a large amount of press, excitement, and fan exuberance when they are winning.
Cubs and W. Sox fans don’t so much say that *their* team is number 1, as they BOTH try to run down each others team.
People from the outside (Quad Cities) may not see that as being a baseball town, but we do. It may be dysfunctional, but no one ever said being a baseball fan was rational. If they did, there would be NO WAY IN H**L the Cubs would ever come close to the 3 million mark in attendance every year!

SmokinGun
3 years 10 months ago

Wrigley is tourist destination, more so than Fenway.  Its like saying the beaches are nicer in Cali than Florida.  You may be right, but only by the smallest margin.  Fenway fills whether winners are on the field or not.  Ive lived in Midwest (quad cities) and Boston, and I can tell you Boston is much more a baseball town.  Midwest much more football and anything college.  But in Boston when Sox are winning alot more money made on peripherals (jersies, advertising, etc.), than you’ll find in Chicago.  If Cubs were to be winning in August, it would no doubt be a big deal in Chicago.  But there would be a decent percent of sports fans waiting on the Bears to start.

CircusFresh
3 years 10 months ago

Agree, he wanted Liverpool and the only way to get that was to make huge $$$ off the Sox.

Kirk Vance
3 years 10 months ago

You’re kidding right? Henry paid less than $500 million for Liverpool. He spent nearly $700 million to buy the Red Sox. So I’m sure when he was spending that money on the Red Sox he was thinking, if I can only make part of that money back, I’ll be able to buy Liverpool, which was really my goal all along.

3 years 10 months ago

 Oh, part two:  And the Cubs want some of Theo’s staff too?  What’s Ricketts smoking?

John Arguello
3 years 10 months ago

It’s common practice.

3 years 10 months ago

Do you know how Theo came to the Red Sox in the first place?

BlueCatuli
3 years 10 months ago

1

Rabbitov
3 years 10 months ago

Beamed down by spaceship I believe. 

3 years 10 months ago

Oh, the irony. Apparently Lucchino has blacked out on that period of his life.

3 years 10 months ago

It’s not about the Cubs wanting some of the Red Sox staff, it’s about Epstein wanting to take trusted and familiar members of his staff with him.

chico65
3 years 10 months ago

Who knows, besides the principals involved, what exactly is going on.  I just hope they come to some resolution soon.  Enough with this BS already.

NathanielS
3 years 10 months ago

Isn’t this in fact non-news?

3 years 10 months ago

I guess if you only read the headline and had no context you might think that.

NathanielS
3 years 10 months ago

Mea Culpa 

corkyciv
3 years 10 months ago

I love how passive-aggressive Tim gets in these comments. 

chico65
3 years 10 months ago

Tim can snark with the best of them

101andCounting
3 years 10 months ago

Tim’s just as stressed as the rest of us Cub fans. Not a good sign when you’re a week and a half from the beginning of the offseason and your team still has no GM.

PS Thanks Tim for running an awesome site!

ellisburks
3 years 10 months ago

I agree with the Tim part. Very awesome site.

gradylittle
3 years 10 months ago

This is just dragging on too long. And I’m not so quick to blame only the Sox for this. It’s been said earlier in the week, and I think it still holds true, the Cubs only want to give up cash at this point, but they also want some of Theo’s staff. The Sox most likely want a promising prospect as well as a “small amount” of cash to round out the deal. Both sides can’t find a medium, really, because there isn’t one and hence why this has gone on for so damn long.

I also think the Garza thing is being over blown, I’m sure the Sox half-heartedly mentioned Garza, the Cubs, of course, declined, and they moved on. I don’t think Henry & Co. pushed real hard for Garza by any means.

This thing is just going on for way too long, and it’s getting pretty annoying at this point.

stl_cards16
3 years 10 months ago

“McAdam writes that the issue of Epstein taking Red Sox employees with him is not an issue, with a mutual understanding in place that he will not raid Boston’s baseball operations department. ”

By far the most important part of this article.

Threat_Level_RedSox
3 years 10 months ago

He’s taking away the red sox leverage for compensation.

mmontice
3 years 10 months ago

Bingo

3 years 10 months ago

Agreed.  And again, it’s Epstein taking staff with him, not the Cubs picking and choosing new employees.

3 years 10 months ago

If there is no precedent, I do not understand why there has to be any compensation at all.  If Epstein is leaving his contract early and has a penalty (fine) to pay to Boston, then so be it.  Is there something in a contract or agreement that says Chicago must literally trade a player to Boston?  I dont understand why the Chicago Cubs have to negotiate anything with Boston.  Theo is leaving Boston and thus doesnt work for them anymore; who cares about extra compensation??

Guest
3 years 10 months ago

You’re in contempt, sir. We have no use for rational and facts on this forum. 

Sawksfan
3 years 10 months ago

I think it’s more like Boston letting Theo out of his contract a year early rather than Theo leaving a year early. There’s a difference. Technically Theo works for Boston until 1) they void the contract, which they would do if they work out an agreement or 2) the contract runs it’s course, which would be this time next year.

Boston can basically dictate what Theo does in 2012, whether it be in a baseball capacity or watching Tivo on his couch at home.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

“Theo is leaving Boston and thus doesnt work for them anymore; who cares about extra compensation?? ”

Because he DOES work for them still. He’s under contract. The Sox have no reason to let him go for nothing other than just to do the Cubs a favor and I don’t see how that benefits them at all. Considering the Sox have a replacement GM in place already and this has basically become something we can effectively sit on as long as we want, it’s the Sox’s responsibility to the fanbase to get as much as they feel they can get out of Ricketts.

MaineSox
3 years 10 months ago

Theo signed a contract, and the Red Sox are asking for something in return for releasing from that contract.  If the Red Sox don’t get something, they don’t have to release him from his contract.  It’s that simple.

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

Because he’s under contract with the Sox until the end of 2012.  He can’t work for anyone else unless the club releases him.  And yes, there is precedent for serious compensation.  When the Sox tried to score Billy Beane from Oakland, before Theo got the job, the A’s demanded Kevin Youkilis, and Boston agreed to trade him.  The deal fell through because Beane changed his mind, but still, that was what would have happened had it gone through.  This is not to mention the more numerous manager transactions where players/prospects are received in return.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

Name 1 time ever that the GM was traded and the deal was completed.
Now name 1 time that a GM was not allowed to leave his team for a promotion with another team other than this occasion.
It is a unspoken unwritten agreement to allow personnel to leave 1 team to persue a promotion with another team within MLB.
Selig will surely soon be telling boston that after the world series.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

And Boston will surely be telling Selig that maybe this “unwritten rule” should be written down if he’d like to do something about it.

101andCounting
3 years 10 months ago

From what I understand, that unspoken agreement allows personnel to pursue a *promotion*, but not a lateral move. So going from GM of the Red Sox to GM of the Cubs, Boston wants compensation. However, they wouldn’t require compensation if Theo got a higher job title, right?

So, a quick and preferable solution to this problem would be the Cubs firing Crane Kenney (which I’d very much like, personally), and installing Theo as Team President. Theo could then hire Josh Byrnes or anybody else he wants to be GM, and Boston can go suck an egg and hire Tony Reagins, after which Theo can convince him to give us Middlebrooks for Soriano.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

Name 1 time ever that the GM was traded and the deal was completed.
Now name 1 time that a GM was not allowed to leave his team for a promotion with another team other than this occasion.
It is a unspoken unwritten agreement to allow personnel to leave 1 team to persue a promotion with another team within MLB.
Selig will surely soon be telling boston that after the world series.

GoAwayNow
3 years 10 months ago

That’s like dating a girl after she cheats on her boyfriend with you.

cachhubguy
3 years 10 months ago

The word is that Theo was going to hire Josh Byrnes. The Cubs should follow that plan. If they can’t agree with Boston, just move on with the plan. Hire Byrnes as GM and then when Theo is free next year bring him in as President of baseball operations. They don’t have to give up anything. During this year, Byrnes and Ricketts can consult with Theo on the moves they are making, since Boston has told Chennington he will be their next GM. It won’t be tampering if they don’t talk about Boston players. Just baseball collegues talking baseball.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

I said that yesterday.
And
Its still true today.
That is exactly what the cubs should do for the next 12 months.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

I said that time is cyclical yesterday.
It’s still true today.

See what I did there?

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

“During this year, Byrnes and Ricketts can consult with Theo on the moves they are making”

No, they can’t. That’s strictly breach of contract. If it came out that Epstein was advising another team on personnel moves, the Sox would have grounds to sue the everliving heck out of him.

3 years 10 months ago

Except in such a suit they would have to PROVE that Theo was advising the Cubs on moves. Good luck with that.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Except that’s not true. Civil court and criminal court are two entirely different arenas. All civil court requires is that you convince the judge of your case and that’s something that wouldn’t be too hard to prove in that regard.

Just look at OJ Simpson. He was acquitted in criminal court because they couldn’t prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was guilty, but he lost millions in civil court because it was determined there was plenty of evidence to find against him in a civil case.

Epstein doesn’t have the MLBPA to back him up like a player would in a situation like this, he’s on his own. You can bet that the Sox would have the resources to tear him apart on something like that. Epstein’s not stupid enough to take that kind of risk.

cachhubguy
3 years 10 months ago

I don’t think using OJ is a good example. He didn’t lose in criminal court because it wasn’t proven.

cachhubguy
3 years 10 months ago

I don’t think using OJ is a good example. He didn’t lose in criminal court because it wasn’t proven.

3 years 10 months ago

In a civil case they would have to prove there is tampering, they still need evidence. Good luck with that, ever heard of a burner phone?

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Epstein’s a baseball executive not a cop. I think you overestimate how far Epstein is willing to go to screw the Sox.

3 years 10 months ago

In a civil case they would have to prove there is tampering, they still need evidence. Good luck with that, ever heard of a burner phone?

3 years 10 months ago

How did we get to OJ? What’s happening here?

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Showcasing the difference between burden of proof in a criminal case versus burden of proof in a civil case.

In a criminal case, burden of proof falls on the hands of the prosecution to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the defendant was guilty of the charge. You have to prove to the jury that there is no possible way that the defendant could not be guilty.

In a civil case, the burden of proof is not nearly as strict since we’re talking money instead of freedom being on the line. In a civil case, you just have to convince the judge that the defendant is guilty of the accusation.

A criminal case is generally won on the letter of the law. If there is insufficient proof, an incompetent defense attorney can still win the case because the prosecution does not have enough of a case. A civil case is almost always decided by the quality of litigation. It’ll pretty much always come down to who has the better lawyers and John Henry can certainly afford better lawyers than Epstein.

Given, it’ll certainly never come to this, but people seem to be overestimating how hard it is to win a civil case when you’ve got enough money for a good lawyer.

3 years 10 months ago

Oh…I thought we were talking about baseball.

Chris Drees
3 years 10 months ago

The thing that got OJ off was the fact that cops screwed up with the evidence. (I had evidence that OJ did it but I forgot to list it and I took it home. Once I got home I realized I forgot to hand it over with all the rest of the evidence so I tried to do so after taking it home thus tampering with the evidence thus making it null and void.)

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

Actually, it would be tampering, and I hope they do so, because that would be a sure way that we would end up with Brett Jackson as compensation.

Justanotherfantoo
3 years 10 months ago

You can’t keep your personnel from talking with their colleagues at other organizations unless they had that written in his contract — the odds of which are essentially zero.

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

I suggest you pick up a copy of: “The Tampering Prohibition and Agreements Between American and Foreign Sports Leagues,” 32 Columbia Journal of Law and the Arts 271-331 (2009).  There, you will find that the rules of MLB prohibit any team from contacting the contracted employee of any other team, prior to the expiration of the employee’s contract, without the express written permission of the contracting employer. 

So the answer to your premise is, you’re incorrect.  League rules bar such contact automatically, and it does not have to be written into Theo’s contract. 

Once the Sox withdraw permission, the Cubs would be tampering to be in contact with Theo in any way whatsoever, in furtherance of future employment. 

The Tampering Rule provides that the League will award the contracting employer, whose employee has been tampered with, just compensation from the players and prospects then within the violating tamperer’s organization.  That means the League will award the Sox the rights to Brett Jackson, or possibly Reed Johnson, or possibly Sean Marshall, in the event the Cubs are caught tampering with Theo while under contract to the Sox.  Sound palatable to you?

Steve_in_MA
3 years 10 months ago

Actually, it would be tampering, and I hope they do so, because that would be a sure way that we would end up with Brett Jackson as compensation.

Sawksfan
3 years 10 months ago

I doubt the last part would happen. If Boston can’t come to agreement and hold on to Theo for 2012, I seriously doubt he will be allowed to consult another team on their moves, particularly the Cubs.

disgustedcubfan
3 years 10 months ago

How could you stop him?

DebaserTN
3 years 10 months ago

You’re an investment trader, aren’t you?

chico65
3 years 10 months ago

It might be Raj himself.

That or a tomato broker.

DebaserTN
3 years 10 months ago

You’re an investment trader, aren’t you?

101andCounting
3 years 10 months ago

I like this plan.

disgustedcubfan
3 years 10 months ago

Great point. Not many people have considered how Theo can express his opinion and make unofficial suggestions to the acting Cubs G.M. who’s keeping the seat warm for a year.

philpbarnes
3 years 10 months ago

Someone said on an earlier post about this. As long as they agree not to take anyone else from the Sox staff, id be quite happy to let him go without a prospect or player at all. 

Need to move on. Got a lot of work to do this winter, and a lot of things to figure out. 

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

We already have a replacement. What exactly is the problem with drawing it out?

MaineSox
3 years 10 months ago

In fact, the best thing the Sox can do is draw this out.  They already have structure in place to move forward and the Cubs don’t, so the longer this is drawn out the more desperate the Cubs will get.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

I am so tired of the bosox overplaying their hand on this.

Sawksfan
3 years 10 months ago

I’m more tired that the Cubs think they can just take a successful GM a year early for bargain basement pricing.

3 years 10 months ago

You seem to have forgotten that Epstein is choosing to go.  What team wouldn’t want him? But the fact that Epstein WANTS to go a year early should say a lot more.  It’s not like Ricketts showed up at Fenway and said, “give us Epstein or we start marching troops into South Boston.”

Sawksfan
3 years 10 months ago

But have you forgotten that Theo is still under contract with Boston? 

There is a difference between Theo leaving on his own and Chicago requesting Boston let him out of the contract a year early. You want something, you give something. 

3 years 10 months ago

I agree with you there. But my question is still how hard do you push AFTER you find out that your GM wants to leave?  The Cubs aren’t “taking” Epstein.  All they did was ask Boston permission to find out if Epstein was interested.  Once Boston agreed, the decision was up to Theo.  In a weird sense, I guess it almost seems like the compensation should be connected to the team asking permission to talk to an employee still under contract as opposed to if the employee decides to leave.  

I guess I picture a gift basket and a card saying, “Thanks for everything” after all is said and done.  But to start off, it’s like, “What would it take for us to be allowed to ask your GM if he would rather come work for us?”  I’d have all of this figured out ahead of time, just in case the guy said yes…avoid all of this nonsense. 

Sawksfan
3 years 10 months ago

I agree with that last part, they should have had a better understanding of WHAT would be expected just by having the conversation.

Justanotherfantoo
3 years 10 months ago

Funny how agreeing ahead of time was never necessary until the Red Sox and Lucchino  were involved…

3 years 10 months ago

I think it’s really just because it’s Red Sox and Cubs fans that are involved.

Sawksfan
3 years 10 months ago

But have you forgotten that Theo is still under contract with Boston? 

There is a difference between Theo leaving on his own and Chicago requesting Boston let him out of the contract a year early. You want something, you give something. 

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

I say draw it out straight through the winter meetings if you have to. Let Cherrington start interviewing managerial candidates as soon as he’s allowed to and let the Cubs figure out Plan B. If the Cubs aren’t prepared to give up anything of value, they can find someone else to run their team.

If I had the slightest inkling this would interfere with baseball operations in the slightest, I’d change my tune, but it’s not. We have a replacement. We can move on with our lives if the Cubs back off. If we back off, the Cubs have to basically start over. Good luck to you.

mmontice
3 years 10 months ago

If the Cubs are smart, not much action will happen this offseason and next year anyhow.  The team is years away from contention, so minor league player development and next year’s draft are the most important.  Being that the Cubs already have their minor league posts set for years to come, what that says to me is the Cubs should be just fine with an interim GM for a year.

So yeah, the Cubs should be able to easily move on to Plan B this year, whether that is hiring the next best GM alternative to Theo or simply running in place with an interim GM.

On the flipside, if the Sox aren’t happy with what the Cubs are offering for compensation, sure they too should also move on and pay Theo $8M to hang out for a year on the sidelines.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Considering how much of a disaster the Cubs’ farm system has been for a while, I have to imagine that first order of business for their new GM will be gutting their system top to bottom in regards to non-players. Sure, that can technically wait a year, but you’d be surprised how much can actually be accomplished in a year from getting new personnel and policies in place. Hendry was against advanced metrics and he would’ve hried staff according to that philosophy. Do you really think the Cubs will want to keep those guys around?

Anyone who answers with “RBI and Wins” as their top priorities when scouting for talent will probably be shown the door.

mmontice
3 years 10 months ago

Fleita (Farm Director) and Wilken (Scouting Director) are most likely not going anywhere.  Fleita just got an extension and Wilken is highly regarded.

The Cubs upper part of their minor leagues are indeed a mess.  That is inarugeable.  However, their lower levels have a lot of promise, and since Wilken is still relatively new to the team, he still has a leash.

The thought was that, if hired, Theo would reshuffle the current roles and beef up the department with guys of his own liking.  Sort of a mix and match.

Either way, I think the Cubs organization would do just fine for one more year with what’s in place.  Last year’s draft is proof of that.

3 years 10 months ago

I think it could have a huge effect on baseball operations for the Red Sox.  If they decide to drag this out further and further, it’s going to start affecting the way both players and staff view the prospect of working in Boston.  So the Red Sox hold onto Epstein for 2012 and paid him to do nothing?  I love the Cubs, but I have just as much respect for Boston.  I wouldn’t want to go work for the guy who decided to force Theo Epstein to sit in an office chair for an entire year over Trey McNutt.  Over Trey McNutt…I can keep repeating this, but it’s just going to start sounding increasingly ridiculous.  
I would say that giving all of Baseballdom that impression would seriously hinder baseball operations.  Unless of course, you think it’s a good idea for the Red Sox to be around for another 3-4 years after a season of only being able to sign players desperate enough for a contract to take the risk.  The good news will be that they’ll still have Lackey, Crawford, Gonzalez, Pedroia and Buchholz…That’s enough to build a team around, right?

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

“I wouldn’t want to go work for the guy who decided to force Theo Epstein to sit in an office chair for an entire year over Trey McNutt. Over Trey McNutt…I can keep repeating this, but it’s just going to start sounding increasingly ridiculous.”

By this same exact token, you cannot in any logical sense make this statement without likewise implying you would not want to work for someone who is not willing to give up Trey McNutt. Give up Trey McNutt. You seem to be implying that McNutt isn’t all that valuable, and if that’s the case, fork him over and let’s all move on. If you’re implying Epstein isn’t worth giving up a guy like McNutt for, then why are you trying so hard to get him in your front office?

This is negotiation 101. If your negotiating partner hasn’t walked away from the table after a week’s worth of negotiations, it’s obvious that what you have is worth something to them. If the Cubs weren’t willing to part with something after being worn down, they’d have realized by now the Sox are unlikely to move on and moved on to plan B. With the Sox having someone in place already, they’re free to drag this out until the Cubs either cave or walk away while continuing to operate business as usual. Any agent worth his salt will recognize this as a negotiating tactic, meaning this is highly unlikely to affect our ability to bring in free agents.

The Sox have two choices here: hold out for what they want and come off as people who won’t settle for less than what they want. In this situation they risk paying Epstein to basically do nothing.

OR, the Sox can give the Cubs Epstein for basically nothing of value to the organization. In this situation, they lose the opportunity cost associated with extracting something of value from their GM leaving early.

Option A is high risk, high reward. Option B is high risk, low reward. If both situations have a 50/50 chance of you going home with nothing to show for it, wouldn’t you go with the option with a high potential for reward?

3 years 10 months ago

Oh course not. I’d tell McNutt to get a suitcase ready.  I’ll take the risk of him turning into something great down the road if it means the organization has someone like Epstein as GM for the next four years.  I could come up with a whole list of reasons why the Cubs would hesitate, but I’m sure that all of us, along with the media, are making this whole situation appear a lot more contentious than it is in reality.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Okay, I suppose we agree on this, then.

It’s basically a question of value. The Sox are placing a value on what they feel one less year of Epstein than they’ve agreed to is. The Cubs have placed a value on what having Epstein now over another GM candidate/waiting another year go get him and risking someone else making him an offer is worth to them.

Right now, we’re waiting for them to find that middle ground and see who balks. The alleged value for the Cubs is cash at, the alleged value for the Red Sox is McNutt (And possibly more).

I can’t fault the Cubs for offering only cash, but likewise people can’t fault the Sox for demanding something they have a use for. Someone’s going to have to give and I personally feel the Sox have at least a tad more leverage. If it falls through, they spend $8 million that was already accounted for anyway and that’s the end of it. Never underestimate the position of someone with nothing left to lose.

3 years 10 months ago

Yeah, I just get hung up on the fact that the “value” in question is almost mythical.  It’s all a risk…

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

This is the thing people are getting caught up on on both sides in a riduclous manner. Value is subjective. Do I think Epstein’s worth Garza? God no, that would be idiotic (Though yeah, I’d ask just to guage how dopey Ricketts is, even determing the point where he stops laughing is valuable intel in a negotiation). Do I think he’s worth McNutt? Quite possibly, yes. People are acting like the two sides aren’t going to start off on the furthest end of each argument as possible. The BIGGEST problem here that’s any different from any other situation is that it leaked very early in the process. People don’t seem to realize that deals like this don’t generally get resolved in a day or two.

The biggest problem is how barren the Cubs’ system is after the Garza trade. The Cubs have about two or three prospects worth taking above the single A level. I can understand that they don’t want to cripple themselves, but at the same time, we need to get something useful to save some face here.

From a PR standpoint, I think the Sox are better off getting nothing than getting something useless.

3 years 10 months ago

And I think that’s an important part of the situation.  Looking back over the past 10 years or so especially, the Cubs’ “top prospects” have had a pretty low success rate (except for that Pie guy that everyone was drooling to see in the majors).  The Cubs won’t let go of the few that they are really high on and the Red Sox could very well be wasting their time trying to develop anyone else.  But they’ve got to figure it all out somehow.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

My basic thought on the matter is that while I can see the Cubs’ stance on not wanting to destroy their farm, there’s a certain level of minimum value that should be associated with a GM like Epstein. The fact that there is very little middle ground in the Cubs’ farm system between their scrubs and their top guys isn’t something that’s the Red Sox’ fault or problem. Epstein is certainly worth more than a couple scrub prospects. No matter how many scrub prospects you glue together, they’re all still scrub prospects (Though I would enjoy the hilarity of what is essentially a Katamari-style ball full of scrub prospects). If the only two options are an overpay or an underpay, nobody in their right mind is going to accept an underpay for a product they have complete control over.

3 years 10 months ago

And in that light, I definitely think you let McNutt go.  Wilken and Fleita have just begun making any progress with the farm system so that rebuilding is still necessary anyways.

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

why dont you call each other

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

There are two kinds of people who can’t get through the day without making, at minimum, three gay jokes: mouth breathers and dudes so far in the closet they’re finding Christmas presents from the 1980’s.

Which sample group do you fall under?

3 years 10 months ago

Does that fall under the category of gay joke?

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

Y’know, the thought crossed my mind. Fortunately, that was only my first one today.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

“I wouldn’t want to go work for the guy who decided to force Theo Epstein to sit in an office chair for an entire year over Trey McNutt. Over Trey McNutt…I can keep repeating this, but it’s just going to start sounding increasingly ridiculous.”

By this same exact token, you cannot in any logical sense make this statement without likewise implying you would not want to work for someone who is not willing to give up Trey McNutt. Give up Trey McNutt. You seem to be implying that McNutt isn’t all that valuable, and if that’s the case, fork him over and let’s all move on. If you’re implying Epstein isn’t worth giving up a guy like McNutt for, then why are you trying so hard to get him in your front office?

This is negotiation 101. If your negotiating partner hasn’t walked away from the table after a week’s worth of negotiations, it’s obvious that what you have is worth something to them. If the Cubs weren’t willing to part with something after being worn down, they’d have realized by now the Sox are unlikely to move on and moved on to plan B. With the Sox having someone in place already, they’re free to drag this out until the Cubs either cave or walk away while continuing to operate business as usual. Any agent worth his salt will recognize this as a negotiating tactic, meaning this is highly unlikely to affect our ability to bring in free agents.

The Sox have two choices here: hold out for what they want and come off as people who won’t settle for less than what they want. In this situation they risk paying Epstein to basically do nothing.

OR, the Sox can give the Cubs Epstein for basically nothing of value to the organization. In this situation, they lose the opportunity cost associated with extracting something of value from their GM leaving early.

Option A is high risk, high reward. Option B is high risk, low reward. If both situations have a 50/50 chance of you going home with nothing to show for it, wouldn’t you go with the option with a high potential for reward?

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

“Over Trey McNutt…I can keep repeating this, but it’s just going to start sounding increasingly ridiculous.”

My question is why isn’t it ridiculous that the Cubs are refusing to simply give up TREY MCNUTT for the GM of their dreams? It’s only ridiculous that Boston is insisting on him, not that the Cubs won’t give him up? As you imply, it’s not like McNutt is that dominating. He’s not even the best prospect in the CUBS system. The CUBS. So why won’t they give him up? That’s clearly what Boston is thinking, and I applaud them for sticking to their guns so far. The Cubs will hopefully realize soon that they’d rather just end this and get Epstein to work than continue to negotiate over TREY MCNuTT.

Daniel Han
3 years 10 months ago

Take Vitters, he doesnt walk at all 

gunsnascar
3 years 10 months ago

who the heck would want to sign in boston after this?

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

People who like money?

Alternatively, people who like chowder and lobster, probably.

vtadave
3 years 10 months ago

People that like to win?

Bob Salek
3 years 10 months ago

If coming in 3rd twice is considered winning

Ry.the_Stunner
3 years 10 months ago

2nd highest payroll in baseball and 2nd straight year sitting at home in October.

That’s not winning.

Shu13
3 years 10 months ago

2 WS rings and multiple playoff appearances in the past decade IS winning….only a few teams have a comparable resume….

cachhubguy
3 years 10 months ago

That’s right. So why would Boston hold back the GM that made that happen. Does anybody have an example of a franchise not allowing their GM to leave to become President of Baseball Operations of another team?

Shu13
3 years 10 months ago

2 WS rings and multiple playoff appearances in the past decade IS winning….only a few teams have a comparable resume….

Shu13
3 years 10 months ago

oops double post

Shu13
3 years 10 months ago

oops double post

BoSoxSam
3 years 10 months ago

Still one of the best offenses in baseball, and only a few pitchers away from having a solid pitching staff as well. Sounds like a pretty good team to me. Don’t get excited here; it’s not like the Red Sox suddenly became the Mets.

andrewyf
3 years 10 months ago

Kinda sounds like the Mets post-2007, actually.

MaineSox
3 years 10 months ago

The Mets had the best offense in baseball post-2007?  Actually they did have anything close to that, so…

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

The 2007 Mets had about the seventh or eight best offense in the MLB in 2007 and they were over .50 points in OPS back of the leader (They were much closer to the middle of the pack than the top teams, statistically). The Red Sox had the absolute best offense in the MLB this season. The Sox really aren’t far off from being a contender.

For all the Yankees fans crowing about how the Yankees were “essentially the same team” going from 2010 to 2011, despite losing their number two starter, the Sox are essentially the same team going into next season, except they’ll probably be giving away Lackey to whoever wants him at league minimum (Which is effectively addition by subtraction). If they can add a pitcher and get Beckett and Lester to not collapse in the final month (And that’s an important note, one more win from each of them and the Sox are in the postseason), they’ll be fine.

0bsessions
3 years 10 months ago

The 2007 Mets had about the seventh or eight best offense in the MLB in 2007 and they were over .50 points in OPS back of the leader (They were much closer to the middle of the pack than the top teams, statistically). The Red Sox had the absolute best offense in the MLB this season. The Sox really aren’t far off from being a contender.

For all the Yankees fans crowing about how the Yankees were “essentially the same team” going from 2010 to 2011, despite losing their number two starter, the Sox are essentially the same team going into next season, except they’ll probably be giving away Lackey to whoever wants him at league minimum (Which is effectively addition by subtraction). If they can add a pitcher and get Beckett and Lester to not collapse in the final month (And that’s an important note, one more win from each of them and the Sox are in the postseason), they’ll be fine.

3 years 10 months ago

one of the best offensive teams in the history of the game…which Theo helped put together..Its not an easy job to walk away from..ppl saying that Theo hates the organization and that he wants out at all costs are mistaken.

Ry.the_Stunner
3 years 10 months ago

2nd highest payroll in baseball and 2nd straight year sitting at home in October.

That’s not winning.

disgustedcubfan
3 years 10 months ago

Players who like to be  paid well, players who enjoy playing for passionate, knowledgeable fans, and players who want the challenge of playing in baseball’s toughest division with the chance of going to the playoffs just about every year.

3 years 10 months ago

the only downside i can see when it comes to playing in Boston is the media attention and the pressure to perform every single night..Not as bad as NY but its still crazy. I have no doubt Crawford felt tons of pressure to perform..I think he will bounce back next year as he becomes more comfortable. I mean  the guy comes from Tampa where they can;t even fill half their seats to Boston where every game is a sellout and the media stalks you like paparazzi..Crawford seems like a nice guy..very humble..now if we end up losing out on resigning Ells bc of Carl’s contract…then I’ll be pissed.