Barry Larkin Elected To Hall Of Fame

Shortstop Barry Larkin was elected to baseball's Hall of Fame today with 86% of the vote, announced the Baseball Writers Association of America.  Larkin is the lone inductee of 2012.

Larkin played his entire 19-season career with the Reds, with a .295/.371/.444 line and 198 home runs across 9,057 plate appearances.  He won the NL MVP in 1995, made a dozen All-Star appearances, and won three Gold Gloves.  FanGraphs pegs his career Wins Above Replacement at 70.6.


199 Responses to Barry Larkin Elected To Hall Of Fame Leave a Reply

  1. MB923 3 years ago

    Congrats Barry. Well earned.

    Makes me wonder if another man named Barry will be in it next year.

    • East Coast Bias 3 years ago

      Word! Congrats Barry!

      Probably feels sweet to get in after not getting in prior years, and to do so in a year where he is the only one going.

    • 0bsessions 3 years ago

      Bonds is pretty much the poster child of the steroid era. The odds of him ever getting in are slim to none, but even if he gets in, it’ll take a few years of arguments and a couple other alleged steroid users getting in.

      • MB923 3 years ago

        I agree, I don’t see Bonds making it first ballot.

        • VivaJackMurphy 3 years ago

          If Bonds does not make it on the first ballot, then what is the purpose of having a Hall of Fame?

          • To honor the non-cheaters. 

          • VivaJackMurphy 3 years ago

            They’re going to have to take out a whole bunch of plaques then. 

          • jb226 3 years ago

            Perhaps, but you can’t change that.  You do the best job you can moving forward and hope it is better than you did in the past.

          • Cam Hodgson-Dwyer 3 years ago

            Sounds like a statement from the BBWAA, re: Braun.

      • Paul Shailor 3 years ago

        Even before he was accused of using steroids he was the first player ever in the 400/400 club. Put him in.

        • 0bsessions 3 years ago

          He may make it in eventually, but the whole scandal coupled with the fact he probably wouldn’t have broken the HR record (Either of them) without them as well as his attitude throughout the whole thing will be enough to keep him out at least for a few years.

          My guess is he’ll probably make it in toward the tail end of his eligibility. Basically once we get to the point where the Hall starts accepting other guys linked with steroids. Honestly, I think there’s decent odds A-Rod will make it in ahead of him and that may also serve as the tipping point for his candidacy.

          • Guest 3 years ago

            bonds deserves it, regardless of whether or not he cheated he hit over 750 hr, that takes some real talent.

          • 0bsessions 3 years ago

            His home run record is about his worst argument for candidacy. One can make the argument that he was worthy of the Hall prior to his steroid years, but it’s pretty safe to say that he wouldn’t have sniffed the all time or single season records without steroids.

            If he gets in, it’ll be on the merits of his career prior to the point where he was blatantly on steroids (Most believe, based on testimony from his trainer, that he started after 1998).

          • Can we not talk about Bonds? This is Barry Larkin’s day!!!

    • $17867741 3 years ago

      Does anyone notice the striking similarities between Alomar’s and Larkin’s careers?

      Slash Line:

      Larkin: .295/.371/.444  –> 9 silver sluggers

      Alomar: .300/.371/.443  –> 4 silver sluggers

      Stolen Bases:

      Larkin: SB 379, CS 77 –> 83%

      Alomar: SB 474, CS 114 –> 80%

      Defense:

      Alomar was the best 2B in his generation  –> 10 gold gloves

      Larkin was only an above average SS  –> 3 gold gloves

      Personal Allocates:

      Both have won a World Series Champion at least once.

      Both have won multiple silver sluggers and gold gloves.

      Both have been elected to multiple All Star games.

      Larkin has one MVP award, whereas Alomar has none.

      Games played:

      Larkin: 19 years, 2180 games played

      Alomar: 17 years, 2379 games played

      Conclusion:

      Alomar was probably more valuable simply because of the difference in
      the games throughout their respective careers. But overall, I think it
      is
      appropriate to induct Larkin into the HoF, one year after Alomar.

      • not_brooks 3 years ago

        My conclusion is that Larkin and Alomar are, in fact, the same person.

        PS – I think you meant “Personal Accolades”

      • Van Wilhoite 3 years ago

        Larkin got screwed out of 2 gold gloves because Ozzie was still playing and NOT because Ozzie was better defensively at the time.

    • BeisbolJunkie 3 years ago

      Barry Lamar Bonds is not eligible because he has NOT retired yet people!!

  2. Well deserved. Great player.

  3. gradylittle 3 years ago

    He was just a great ball player and I am real glad he got in, well deserved. 

  4. Beatofficer 3 years ago

    Well deserved, Barry Larkin was amazing to watch when I was a child.

    Fixed it for you Kevin.

    • Kevin Michell 3 years ago

      I’ve heard that 5 year-old Barry was amazing, too. Too bad he really went downhill around age 9…

      All grammar-based joking aside, hell yeah, way to go Barry!

  5. Snoochies8 3 years ago

    congrats larkin!

  6. FillyPhan 3 years ago

    Well Deserved!

  7.  It’s BS.  Check the stats for Bagwell, McGriff, Martinez, and a few others who got squat. Their numbers are much better than Larkin’s.

    • slasher016 3 years ago

      None of those people played shortstop.  Across the board he’s considered a top ten shortstop of all-time.  

      •  I don’t give a crap what position he played. His numbers were much less. Are we picking by position or by numbers?

        • slasher016 3 years ago

          So you’re saying only 1B/OF should be in the HOF then?

        • sonofsnake 3 years ago

          Both

        • $3513744 3 years ago

          Apparently the voters don’t give a crap what you think either.  Guess who wins in this one?

        • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

          classic WEEI comment

        • Jason_F 3 years ago

          Obviously, shortstops are held to a different offensive standard than first basemen.  Do you even watch baseball?

        • $1529282 3 years ago

          Position is a MAJOR factor in the voting process. That he put up the numbers he did playing a premium defensive position is incredible.

          Put Edgar at shortstop and see how many of the runs he creates with his bat are given back on defense. Baseball is a multi-dimensional game, and players are rewarded for strong offense at premium positions on the diamond.

          If you don’t get that, you’re either incredibly dense, new to the game, or both.

        • not_brooks 3 years ago

          His numbers were much less what…?

      • Hal Jordan 3 years ago

        No, but Bagwell is the 3rd best 1B of all-time(after Gehrig and Pujols). 

        But I’m not saying Larkin didn’t deserve to get in.  He should have got in last year.

        • vtadave 3 years ago

          Jimmie Foxx does not endorse this post.

        • MikhelB 3 years ago

          ts ts ts… the best defensive 1B didn’t get in the HOF, Donnie Mattingly played a superb defense way better than Garvey and Keith H., but being the best at his position didn’t guarantee him the selection.

      • Running Scared 3 years ago

        OK Ill go one better. Alan Tramell. Arguably Better off and def. Why so long to make it in? 

  8. NYBravosFan10 3 years ago

    Congrats Barry Larkin, it’s nice to see him finally come out from the shadows of Jeter, A-Rod, Ripken and Garciaparra

  9. MB923 3 years ago

    BBWAA dot com has the whole ballot.

    Javy Lopez and Eric Young got votes, Brad Radke got 2 votes.

    Juan Gone is officially Gone after his 2nd year on the ballot only getting 4% of votes

  10. BobbyJohn 3 years ago

    Well-deserved for Larkin. Truly a class act and great player.

    How these writers cannot vote for Bagwell is still beyond me.

  11. TophersReds 3 years ago

    Well deserved and slighly underrated from the rest of the league. Congrats Barry.

  12. Poor Phil Nevin. Didn’t get a single vote.

    If its any consolation, he’s in my Baseball Mogul 2009 Hall of Fame.

    Congrats to Barry Larkin

  13. BobbyJohn 3 years ago

    Jack Morris up to 66.7%. That’s pretty much lock-for-election territory there. I don’t get that at all. Morris, to me, is the pitching version of Bernie Williams. Almost, but not quite.

    • MB923 3 years ago

      Competition will be even harder in the upcoming years, Pedro, Schilling, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Mussina.

      Some of these are for sure HOFers, some are borderline. Might get hard for Morris to get it. I think all those players I listed were better than Morris.

    • j6takish 3 years ago

      He is going to get in almost exclusively based on  Game 7 in 1991

      • start_wearing_purple 3 years ago

        That’s the problem. It’s a single game. In Morris’s time he was never a great pitcher, he was a good pitcher who had a couple of great moments, nothing else.

        • $1529282 3 years ago

          Agreed wholeheartedly, but a large portion of the BBWAA consists of older guys who vote based on narrative rather than fact. It’s a sad truth.

          Jack Morris was a good pitcher whose career was highlighted by All-Star appearances, Opening Day starts, and the fortune of being on a lot of good teams.

          The lack of correlation between those things and his actual performance will be overlooked in lieu of the fact that he provided historic moments in an otherwise pedestrian career. His 3.90 ERA will be the worst in the entire Hall of Fame when he gets in, but people will rejoice as if it’s a deserved honor.

          I love Jack Morris. I’m a Twins fan whose happiest sports memory is the 1991 World Series. The only thing close to Morris’ Game 7 dominance, in terms of sentimental value for me, is Puckett’s walk-off in Game 6. Still, even I can admit that while Morris is one of my all-time favorites… he’s not one of the all-time greats.

    • Chris_RG 3 years ago

      Actually a more apt comparison would be Kirk Gibson. Both were good, but not great, but had one HUGE defining postseason moment and won some WS. The difference: Gibson didn’t even sniff the HOF, let alone make it past the first ballot. 

      I have yet to hear an intelligent argument for Morris’s inclusion. Mostly intangible crap like “he pitched to the score” and was a “big game pitcher”.

  14. j6takish 3 years ago

    Hopefully this opens the door for Trammell

  15. cardinalmike 3 years ago

    Pete, the writers “right” as you call it is the way the system is set up.  Anyone who has been a member of the BBWAA for ten years gets a vote.  The BBWAA provides broad criteria, including character, and the writers cast their votes.  If you don’t like the way the writers vote, work to change the system or, perhaps, yell at a writer.

    By the way, Edgar Martinez doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame.

    Raines definitely belongs and I am ambivalent about Bagwell.

  16. Disgustedfan 3 years ago

    Even though I know Bonds took steroids I think he should get in the hall. He started taking roids in 1999 because that is when he grew into a middle linebacker. Prior to that he had won 3 mvps 8 gold gloves  and 7 silver sluggers. He had 400+ homeruns and 400+ steals prior to 1999. Had over a 400 obp. Even if you take away his 4 mvps and 300 homeruns he hit on steriods he is still a hof. This guy had talent unlike Sosa Bagwell Mgwire Palmero who were good only because of steriods in my opinion.

    • Chris1G 3 years ago

      That’s the problem though, Bonds would probably have been a HOFer if he wouldnt have taken steroids.  Now with everything that came out about it nobody wants to even look at those guys.  If Bonds doesnt get in he really has nobody to blame but himself, he would have been in more than likely without steroids. 

      • I fail to remember when  Bonds failed a drug test.  Conjecture, assumptions and hyperbole does not and should not preclude a person from the hall of fame.  A jury found him guilty of obstruction of justic and nothing else.  He should make the HOF without question.

        • Red_Line_9 3 years ago

          I believe he failed 3 of them during the MLB’s “random” testing……but he’s a hall of famer anyway in my book.

    • Lanidrac 3 years ago

      It doesn’t matter. Most of the HoF voters that aren’t voting for these guys are using the character criteria to justify their lack of votes, not questioning their playing abilities if they hadn’t taking steroids.

      Besides, you may have a point with Sosa, but McGwire was already a big star before he first took steroids, and judging from how far he hit those balls and his career total of 583, he would’ve still hit 500+ HRs without steroids. He was also an excellent defender, an elite on-base threat, and his career batting average is misleading due to a couple of horrible outliers (including his injury plagued final season).

      As for Palmeiro, he’s probably the most underrated player with 3000+ hits in baseball history. Even before his failed test, he was extremely underrated and somehow snuck up to that huge milestone with little fanfare. His connection to steroids then seals the deal.

  17. Chris1G 3 years ago

    Anyone know how Mattingly did?  In my opinion he should be in his numbers werent bad, the guy was a vaccum at first base, and was probably one of the best if not the best 1st basemen in the 80’s

    • start_wearing_purple 3 years ago

      He’s up to 17.8%

      • Chris1G 3 years ago

        Damn, i thought he had a higher percentage last year, i could be wrong though, kinda sucks he probably wont get in. Donnie Baseball was my favorite player growing up as a kid.

        • start_wearing_purple 3 years ago

          At this point Mattingly should only get in as a manager if he does something for the Dodgers. The fact is he was a dominate hitter for only a couple of years. The last two thirds of his career were more or less slightly above average compared to other hitters of the time.

          • Chris1G 3 years ago

            I was just saying he has something like 9 Gold Gloves an MVP and was a .307 or .309 career hitter had over 2000 hits, and a 6 or 7 time AS, pretty good numbers in my opinion.  I know i may be bias because he was my favorite player growing up I just think he should be in.  That’s just my opinion

          • Red_Line_9 3 years ago

            I’m not sure that the Hall of Fame should be based on offensive stat production alone.  Clearly, Ozzie Smith isn’t a Hall of Famer on offensive merit…but if you mention one breaths worth of great all time shortstops…Ozzie is there.

          • Lanidrac 3 years ago

            Yes, but do you really consider Mattingly to be one of the best defensive 1B of all time (not to mention that SS is a MUCH tougher defensive position than 1B)?

          • Red_Line_9 3 years ago

            I don’t feel that Mattingly is a Hall of Famer.  I’m actually making about the same as you are.  Defense should definitely play into the case as far as middle infield Hall of Famers go.  But offensive contribution should probably be a larger component…..or you’d be littering the Hall with the Rey Ordonez types.

            Omar Vizquel is an interesting case coming up in a few years.

          • Chris1G 3 years ago

            How is Mattingly not one of the best fielding 1st basemen of all time?  His fielding percentage is like .998 and he has 9 gold gloves, in the 80’s nobody was better, i think he has one of the best gloves for a first basemen ever.

    • MetsMagic 3 years ago

      Keith

  18. Jack Morris and Fred McGriff need to be in!

    • Disgustedfan 3 years ago

      Those guys are all time goods not Hall of famers

      • I disagree.  if McGriff was on a big market team, he would be considered one of the greatest.  he was one of the top first baseman in the 80s/90s.  He’s always been overlooked.  Morris had a great career and he was an incredible big game pitcher.  I think they both deserve to be in.  For their era, they were some of the best

        • $2902172 3 years ago

          So Tim Raines isn’t in because he’s a cokehead, but Morris is in for being a “big game pitcher” and McGriff is in based on something that didn’t happen.

          Good to know. Please get off the internet.

          • go take a nap little boy.  McGriff should be in, where were you in the 80s/90s?  Both players were some of the best for their era and that should go along ways.  McGriff and Morris were in the runnings for MVPs and Cy Youngs for many years.  Raines never was.  He was good but not dominant in his era.  Maybe Vince Coleman can get in too?

          • MB923 3 years ago

            I don’t know of anyone that ever called Arnold a little boy!

          • Lou Ferrigino did…

          • nahtahn02 3 years ago

            Please look at Tim Raines’ stats from 1981-1987. Thank you.

          • $2902172 3 years ago

            McGriff wasn’t better than the DH and two other first basemen on this ballot.

            Morris would easily become one of the worst pitchers in the Hall if elected. If you have a pulse, you’d know this. I don’t care about his opening day starts as an ace, his 10 inning complete game as an ace. They’re irrelevant when you’re statistically inferior to your peers as Morris is. You’d know this if you had a pulse.

          • name a better 1B than McGriff in the 80s/90s (that wasn’t juiced).  Grace, Clark, Hal Morris?  Nope.  Same with Morris.  Take a look space cadet!

          • MetsMagic 3 years ago

            Who was a better 1b? Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell, by leaps and bounds. 

            I loved Crime Dog, and that nickname alone and the fact that he could conceivably wear a Devil Rays cap almost makes him worth it, but not quite. 

          • Lanidrac 3 years ago

            Bagwell

  19. Tko11 3 years ago

    Mike Piazza will be eligible next year! He better make it first ballot!

  20. No Neck 3 years ago

    TO-NY WO-MACK!

    *clap clap clapclapclap*

  21. danimal0630 3 years ago

    Is Eric Young a part of the BBWAA? If not, then who in the hell voted for him? Same could be said for guys like Brad Radke, Bill Mueller, et al. Seriously though, these voters should take this at least semi-seriously.

    • Chris_RG 3 years ago

      Radke has a higher career WAR than Jack Morris. Neither should be HOFers, just saying though.

  22. $1529282 3 years ago

    Rather have that than the nine clowns who left their ballots blank.

    • Sean Bealer 3 years ago

      One guy, Randy Miller, doesn’t think Bagwell deserves the HoF even though he isn’t holding ‘roids against him. To him Bagwell is “good, but not HoF worthy”
      His case against Raines is even funnier, cause “If Raines is so great, why did he get 22% of vote one year?” 

  23. $2902172 3 years ago

    Prior to 2000, Barry Bonds was a hair shy of being in the 500-500 club, won 3 MVPs, won several gold gloves, had a top 30 OBP (not just in the modern era… EVER… including back when guys hit .400 with regularity), and even had Wesley Snipes play a loosely based version of himself in a movie with the guy from Taxi Driver.

    In order to deny Barry Bonds entrance to the Hall, please provide proof that using PEDs directly influenced his career in the 1980s and 1990s, when he was one of the best all-around players in baseball history.

    • maybe if Wesley Snipes played Fred McGriff, you’d get a clue.  haha

      • $2902172 3 years ago

         Seriously dude, get off the internet. You know nothing about baseball.

    • CardsEagles1489 3 years ago

      That’s the bad thing about Bonds. He didn’t need to use PEDs when he did, because as you pointed out, he was already a great player without them. Now, a lot of people prolly won’t vote for him, since he tested positive in 2001..

      • $3513744 3 years ago

        I think that’s the biggest shame in all of this.  I would have loved to see what he could have done.

    • Lanidrac 3 years ago

      Personally, I’d vote them all in simply because of all the cheaters that are already in the Hall like Gaylord Perry, but if you’re not going to let in guys like McGwire (who would’ve still hit 500+ HRs w/out steroids) and Palmeiro (who also has over 3000 hits) because of the character clause, then you can’t let in Bonds.  Having a HOF career prior to taking steroids doesn’t matter. He cheated, therefore he doesn’t meet the character criteria for election into the Hall.  It would be the same as if Albert Pujols suddenly decided to start taking steroids this year.

      • $3513744 3 years ago

        Some people also choose not to make a mistake just because it was made prior.

    • $3513744 3 years ago

      I guess that’s only if you want to ignore that he still had a significant contribution for the follow decade after that too–and that contribution by most people’s eyes think that he cheated.  They usually look at the guy’s career as a whole, not just one portion of it.

  24. Since_77 3 years ago

    Congratulations to Larkin.  Maybe there is some hope for Bernie Williams
    (.297/.381/.477).

  25. Disgustedfan 3 years ago

    I think too many people get into the HOF. Barry Larkin was a nice player but HOF maybe not. The HOF should only be of all time greats like mantle mays  steve carlton rickey henderson Nolan ryan cal ripken. Guys like andre dawson, ryne sandberg who have made it in the past are not all time greats. If there is any debate whether a player is a HOF then he is not one. Derek Jeter yes Bernie williams no. Greg Maddux yes Mike mussiana no. This is the hall of fame not the hall of the good. Frank Thomas Mike Piazza randy johnson chipper jones John smoltz greg maddux tom glavine craig biggio curt schilling pedro martinez for future hall of fame.

    • Red_Line_9 3 years ago

      I’m with you, but Ryne Sandberg is a Hall of Famer.  Especially if Biggio is.

    • CardsEagles1489 3 years ago

      Yeah, if Jorge Posada gets in, then it’s obviously not that prestigious. A catcher known for his bat that only hits .273 lifetime has no business in the HOF..

      • MB923 3 years ago

        .273 is a pretty high average as a catcher. Posada I’d say won’t make it but he definitely is on the borderline level.

        • CardsEagles1489 3 years ago

          I wouldn’t say it’s a high average. It’s a little above average for a catcher, but not HOF material. Piazza hit .308, mostly as a catcher. That is a high average, and he should get in the Hall on the first ballot..

          • MB923 3 years ago

            No argument about Piazza. And to be exact, Posada’s career BA as a catcher is not .273, it’s actualyl .279. Currently there are 13 HOF catchers, 6 of them have a lower BA. 

            Only 3 HOF catchers have a higher OBP than Posada (for his stats as a catcher), and only 2 have a higher slugging percentage. 

            Again, I’d vote no though for him but he is definitely borderline. Only catchers this era who were better were Pudge and Piazza, and maybe Mauer in the end if he stays at C.  

          • CardsEagles1489 3 years ago

            Ok, that’s fair.
            And I think Mauer should probably move positions to extend his career, perhaps to first..

    • raffish 3 years ago

      Barry Larkin was one of the best offensive SS of his era and that shows up as All*Star appearances.  He played strong defense and was a leader on a good team.  How many better SS can you name from 1970-2000?  Ripken? Jeter?

    • $3513744 3 years ago

      I don’t disagree with everything, just your perception that Larkin was just a nice SS amongst his peers.  There are what, two dozen or so SS in the HOF?  Larkin for sure was amongst those guys, and is definitely way better than all the other SS who have ever played the game and are eligible.

  26. mlhnrca 3 years ago

    Then Omar Vizquel will be a HOFer, too. Same amount of RBI’s, 500+ more hits…8 more gold gloves than Larkin.

    • CardsEagles1489 3 years ago

      Vizquel should be. With the exception of Ozzie Smith, he’s the greatest defensive shortstop of all time..

      • Lanidrac 3 years ago

        I don’t know about that, but Vizquel was an elite defensive SS, plus his career offensive stats are very similar to the Wizard’s career offensive stats, and Ozzie got in on his first ballot.

    • tdot32 3 years ago

      2600 games started at shortstop, only 186 errors at the position in his career. hall worthy no doubt.

  27. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle should get special Hall of Fame commendations for using “Performance Detracting Drugs”.  My goodness.  How many home runs have been socked with hangovers in MLB history?

  28. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    This is great news for my 1987 Topps Barry Larkin rookie card!  It’s worth a mint now!!  Literally…it’s worth a York Peppermint Patty. 

    When Will Clark gets in the Hall…then we’ll be talking slamming those biscuit wheels on this gravy train!

  29. BigRedOne 3 years ago

    This whole steroid argument comes down to this, is a player still considered “great” knowing they got an artificial/synthetic “assist” that no other players in any era before them received? It doesn’t matter if they were a great player or not before the roids since the act of using them contaminates the sample of statistics therefore impossible to judge them on the breadth of their careers.

  30. weaselpuppy 3 years ago

    Interesting voting dynamics in Morris. No one has gotten to 66.7% w/o being  elected subsequently. But he has 2 years left…..next year you see 2 guys that were gonna be 1st ballot guys w/o PEDs but they did em anyways in Bonds and Rocket…do they get “punished” by being left off a bunch of ballots a la the other cheaters that have come up so far? Then  you have a borderline guy before PED’s in Sosa and a guy in Biggio that is a borderline guy overall…but he got his 3000 hits ( ever notice his career high power surge at age 37-38-39? hmmm…..)…then all hit abysmal D catcher that is likely getting in first ballot and a very Morris like guy in Schilling….plus Bags and Raines as serious contenders from the holdover (nonwithstanding Trammel was Barry Larkin but will be screwed)….in 2014 you have Maddux and Glavine….do you think if Morris misses next year that they will put him in as the junior candidate with those two guys?….hmmmm….I think Jack’s best bet is next year while people argue about Bonds and Clemens….if not next year, he may be the first guy to not get in with 2/3 the vote late in the process…typical Tigers screw job ( see Freehan, Whitaker dumped off the ballot after 1 year while Ryno is 1st ballot, and Trammell)

    Congrats to Larkin! Free Alan Trammell!!

  31. Patrick the Pragmatist 3 years ago

    Edgar career stats:  .312/.418/.515  CAREER .933 OPS!!!
    Over the course of 18 years (not his fault some of those were September stints blocked by Jim Presley)  in 2055 games and 8672 PA.

    Is that not enough? More than enough? 

    • Disgustedfan 3 years ago

      Martinez was a great hitter. I wouldnt mind it if he made the hall. But the fact that he was a dh will make it where he never gets in

    • Tired_OF_FakeRumors 3 years ago

      If ozzie smith is in the HOF that  means that one dimensional players can get into the HOF too.

  32. Patrick the Pragmatist 3 years ago

    Edgar career stats:  .312/.418/.515  CAREER .933 OPS!!!
    Over the course of 18 years (not his fault some of those were September stints blocked by Jim Presley)  in 2055 games and 8672 PA.

    Is that not enough? More than enough? 

  33. buckeyereds 3 years ago

    Some of you are arguing the fact that Larkin was just a good SS compared to a great one.  For a good part of his career you could argue the fact that he was the best all around shortstop in the majors.  The SS position wasnt offensive position then as it is now.  Larkin made it that and then Jeter, Nomar, and Arod took it a step farther.  Looking over the past 20 years and taking into account defense, baserunning, leadership, and offense I would say Jeter is first and Larkin is 2nd.

    • weaselpuppy 3 years ago

      Uhhh, Cal Ripken and Robin Yount say hellloooooo from 1981….Larkin followed them and Trammell….

  34. formerdraftpick 3 years ago

    Other than announcers and managers, is Barry Larkin the only Hall of Famer who has never led an offensive category over the course of his career?  Ozzie Smith has even led a category one year.  

  35. MB923 3 years ago

    FAIL

  36. MB923 3 years ago

    When was Bagwell linked to steroids?

  37. Todd Smith 3 years ago

    Bagwell will eventually make it in.  He’s already close to 60%, while guys like McGwire and Palmeiro can’t break 20%.  I think Bagwell’s problem has more to do with this nonsense of not letting a player in too early that the BBWAA has made up.  I don’t think too many people are silly enough to just assume he took steroids for no other reason than he played in the 90s.

  38. 4Feathers has no idea what he is talking about

  39. Seanb1223 3 years ago

    Perhaps you should actually read the criteria set forth by the hall for the writers to consider a player for entry. It isn’t just about their on field play. Character plays a role, fairly or otherwise.

  40. Seanb1223 3 years ago

    Perhaps you should actually read the criteria set forth by the hall for the writers to consider a player for entry. It isn’t just about their on field play. Character plays a role, fairly or otherwise.

  41. $3513744 3 years ago

    The fact that they’re the ones eligible to vote seems like reason enough for them to impose their own judgement on the HOF.

  42. Guest 3 years ago

     but 1) stabbing is not performance enhancing, 2) Bonds took steroids for more than just injuries

  43. NYBravosFan10 3 years ago

    what Ty cobb did is different than what Bonds did. Barry Bonds used illegal things to help him with his baseball skills. The stabbing Ty Cobb did didnt assist his career. You’d be better off comparing Pete Rose and Ty Cobb rather than Bonds and Cobb

  44. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    In fairness..Al Stump who created this bit of Ty Cobb mythology has been discredited somewhat over the past decade or so.  Ty Cobb is a complete and totally fascinating character, but it is easy to attribute deeds to him that might not be true. 

    I’m at a little bit of a loss on how to judge nearly 100 year old moral character.  It seems a bit much to condemn a person using the social mindset of the modern age.  Was Ty Cobb as racist?  Probably…baseball itself shared his mindframe….as did the government.

  45. MB923 3 years ago

    First, how about we stop saying FIRST?

  46. McGriff is underrated.  if he played on bigger market teams you all would be all over his nutz

  47. $1529282 3 years ago

    Right I forgot all the places where Bagwell was publicly linked to steroids and then he came out and admitted it.

    Oh wait.

  48. Hal Jordan 3 years ago

    There has never been any evidence that Bagwell was on steroids.  Muscles alone does not equal steroids. Steroids just allow a person to work out harder for longer with shorter rest. They aren’t a magic pill, and it is possible to get very muscular without resorting to steroids.

    They also help a person recover from injuries, which is why some people think McGwire wouldn’t have even been able to stay on the field consistently without them.

  49. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    Babe Ruth’s character was also questionable on a social level.  He was, however, much more likable than Ty Cobb it seems.

    To me the character debate comes down to baseball pure and simple.  Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were more than rumored to have fixed games which many feel led to their later change of teams.

    Truth be told…if writers want to enforce the charcacter clause…there’s not too many guys left in Cooperstown. 

    It’s like Bill Veeck said…..if those guys could come down off thost plaques…..they’d destroy the place.

  50. MikhelB 3 years ago

    But back then it was the norm. If your family has been in the US of A for a loong period of time, then even your ancestors used the ‘N’ word and laughed at the slaves, ’cause you should know that the US vowed for liberty yet it was one of the few countries where it was legal to own slaves.

  51. $3513744 3 years ago

    I don’t completely disagree with you but that’s just the thing of it:  the voters aren’t just voting on stats.  I think we can agree that the stats are a big portion of if, which is the reason a guy like Bonds isn’t getting in is because they don’t believe he earned those stats legitimately.  Whether we agree on that is irrelevant.  They have a voting system to decide these things so that it’s just not one person’s bias view that votes them in.

  52. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    I’m not aware, but is Kennesaw Mountain Landis in the non-player wing of the Hall.  That man used his overwhelming power to keep black players out of MLB even when confronted by owners who wished to employ them.

  53. MikhelB 3 years ago

    yes you compared them. I don’t get it when people compare characteristics of two persons in a fallacious form and then they say “I didn’t compared them”.

  54. ssplat 3 years ago

    Uh, boy.  As far as I can tell, off field stabbings don’t inflate your stats.  Steroids most certainly do.  And if testes were indeed sacrificed, it was for personal gain not our admiration.

  55. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    I agree.  I personally believe that it should be on-field merit that earns induction.  I’m also of the feeling that the HOF should be strict to who is admitted.  I believe that if a player is not obviously a HOFer after 5 years retirement…they should be removed for 20 years.

    When the moral code was written into the HOF induction…I believe they were at a time when gambling had tarnished the integrity of the game.  PHD’s weren’t an issue.  A player like Barry Bonds provides a whole kettle of worms.  He obviously used PHDs.  But there’s a case that he was a hall of famer before he likely ever started on them….same case for Roger Clemens.

    Baseball must walk a hard fair line though…for the sake of voting integrity.

  56. Tim Raines was a coke head like Dave Parker.  I’m not sold on either of them for the Hall

  57. Jon Melton 3 years ago

    Youre right Pete if Bags had stayed in Boston for whole career  instead of Houston easy first ballot.  

  58. Disgustedfan 3 years ago

    I just have a strong feeling bagwell was on roids. He had a buncha 40 hr 130 rbi years and usually that means steriods. Especially in that era. Plus he was ugly looking

  59. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    I don’t believe Selig was commish in 1990.  This was about the time period where the true powers of the commish to act “in the best interest of baseball” were done away with by ownership.  It would have been truly interesting for baseball had Bartlett Giamatti lived.  It took some major brass cajones to ban Pete Rose from the game.  The man was fair in a time that was self serving.

  60. Philip Marlowe 3 years ago

    You think Bonds hits 600+ HR without steroids? You crazy, holmes. I’d say he hits 500, but there’s no way he maintains his power into his late 30s and early 40s without steroids – Bonds was 36 when he had his 73-homer season, and he hit 28 home runs at the age of 42!

    I just don’t see it.

  61. Thomas Wilson 3 years ago

    +1

  62. not_brooks 3 years ago

    THIRD (to reply to this comment)!

  63. Thomas Wilson 3 years ago

    Larry Walker would like a word

  64. slasher016 3 years ago

    Wrong.  BBWAA does not vote for gold gloves, players/managers do.

  65. monty4aloha 3 years ago

    Fourfeathers is your typical ‘Right Winger’ who makes judgments based on ASSUMPTIONS and no facts…. I suppose if he is ever accused of something some day that will be when he will understand the difference.

  66. Lanidrac 3 years ago

    Please don’t include Bagwell in the same list as those other guys, at least not until there’s ANY evidence whatsoever linking Bagwell to performance enhancing drugs.

  67. Lunchbox45 3 years ago

    ok but even with 500, he’d be in the hall no?

  68. melonis_rex 3 years ago

    A 500 HR guy gets in the HOF pretty easily. 

  69. Philip Marlowe 3 years ago

    Touche.

  70. tdot32 3 years ago

    stabbing people > cheating at sports

  71. melonis_rex 3 years ago

    And? PLENTY of terrible players took PEDs and got absolutely nowhere. Even without PEDs, these guys would still have been elite, HOF-worthy players. 

  72. not_brooks 3 years ago

    ^ This.

    And, as MLB accepted and embraced steroids, they should recognize that, release an official statement acknowledging it, open a “Steroid Era Wing” in the Hall of Fame, complete with asterisks for players who were proven guilty, and, finally, move on.

  73. not_brooks 3 years ago

    15 players have posted a .700+ SLG% in a single season.

    Nine of them are in the Hall of Fame: 
    Ruth, Gehrig, Hornsby, Foxx, Williams, Wilson, Simmons, Mantle, Musial

    Three should be in the Hall of Fame: McGwire*, Walker, Bagwell, Belle

    Two haven’t had their shot yet, but should make it when their time comes: Bonds*, Sosa*

    Edit: Actually, I’ll take Sammy off that list. Dude hit a bunch of homers, but his career is not even close when you compare him to his peers (ie: Bonds, Thomas, Griffey, Belle, Bagwell, Walker, etc…)

  74. CardsEagles1489 3 years ago

    I think Bagwell has more buisness being in than Morris does..

  75. His career era was 3.90? seriously.. nice

  76. not_brooks 3 years ago

    I’m surprised you haven’t felt the wrath of every Oriole fan under the age of 40 yet…

  77. MikhelB 3 years ago

    You mean 0.260 hitting Ozzie and 0.270 hitter Cal ‘they didn’t bench me even if i sucked for ten years because i had a streak of games’ Ripken?

    Those will be together in the HOF… and to think that Ozzie and Cal got on base at a 0.330 average, whereas for example compared to Larkin, Jeter had a better WAR, BAA, OBP, SLG, OPS, more HR, more RBI, more hits, doubles, Runs, all star appearances when both had the same amount of games player (long surpased by Jeter).

  78. raffish 3 years ago

    Based on “use your eyes”.  

  79. raffish 3 years ago

    Color me in the heretic corner, too.  I have little doubt he was on roids.  I don’t need a public apology as permission to use my eyes and my brain.

  80. not_brooks 3 years ago

    You know what’s really funny?

    Bagwell accumulated more WAR than Frank Thomas in 170 fewer games and Thomas, by current voting standards, is a shoo-in first ballot guy.

    Wait. That’s not funny. That’s sad…

  81. raffish 3 years ago

    If one is at a party and sees someone clearly on drugs, do they need the person to admit to being on drugs, or submit to a drug test, to know?  Can’t someone just use their mind to draw conclusions based on experience and association?  Just because they guy didn’t get caught doesn’t mean he didn’t do it.  Lots of them didn’t get caught.

  82. Because it’s impossible to bulk up without using steroids, am I right?

  83. hoagiebuchanan 3 years ago

    *Facepalm*

  84. Lanidrac 3 years ago

    …or he was just really good, and his consistency is evidence that he was never juiced.  Next, are you going to argue that Ken Griffey Jr. was on steroids simply because he was an offensive monster all throughout the 90’s but couldn’t stay healthy in the 00’s?

  85. raffish 3 years ago

    Like that?  Pretty much yes.  Look at the transformation.  Google some images.  And find a pic of him now.  Dude is a puke.  I watched that guy in the playoffs for years and he was raging in the box.  Yoked out of his mind.  And why did his #’s fall of a cliff into retirement at 36?  He conveniently began slipping right as testing became mandatory, and he retired the next year.  He was also on the same team as several other users, and some others who probably were using.  It all adds up.  You don’t have to do the math.  That’s your choice.

  86. Lanidrac 3 years ago

    Well, the argument is that in modern baseball’s specialized pitching roles, a closer is simply a different kind of pitcher who pitches lights out for just one or two innings many times a week and is nearly as important as the starters who specialize on limiting damage three or four times through a batting order once a week.  It’s not like 70 years ago when your relievers were just starters who weren’t as good as the actual starters.

    As for those who are DHs for most of their careers, if they were any good at fielding, they wouldn’t be the DH, at least not for the majority of their careers.

    I’m not saying a DH like Edgar Martinez shouldn’t get it (I’m actually not sure where I stand on that), but there is a good reason why some voters don’t like primary DHs in the Hall who are perfectly fine with closers. It’s the same reason why we send closers to the All-Star game but not bench players (except for that one ridiculous selection). If bench players were good enough to be All-Stars, they wouldn’t be bench players.

  87. Ripken is overrated.  So there’s that.

    – O’s fan, under 40.

  88. Lanidrac 3 years ago

    Not to mention the other known cheaters like spitballer Gaylord Perry or the many guys who took greenies.

  89. Lanidrac 3 years ago

    McGwire was in his prime when he first had injury problems. Yes, it was when he first tried steroids, but he still should’ve been able to recover without them.  It would’ve just taken a while longer. After that, he didn’t have injury problems again until 2000, after he had already made his mark.

    I think it’s more likely that steroids led to his later injuries that led to his somewhat early retirement. For all we know, without the ‘roids, McGwire might’ve been able to play for another three or four years and hit 600 home runs legitimately.

  90. Guest 3 years ago

    the guy still hit 600 homers and stole 200 bases, and has a few 30/30 seasons,

  91. Wow! You saw Bagwell taking steroids at a party!?!

    Cool.

  92. monty4aloha 3 years ago

    I agree totally on your first entance and that is a good point…But in your second sentance I think you have a right to draw a conclusion but that conclusion should not be a fact because the information you may have recieved could be either biased or just inaccurate… but in the case of Bagwell he was never seen or accused…. “his only link was that there are a lot of others in his profession doing it”;. he was not mentioned in the Mitchell report either or even by Canseco… So by the criteria you mentioned  since fourfeathers never seen him do it or knows of anyone who has mentioned him doing it he does not have a right to spread a rumor…..Just to further my point I would hate to accuse Fourfeathers of using drugs just because he had co-workers who used drugs.  

  93. Tko11 3 years ago

    He never tested positive. The one thing he admitted to was using androstenedione early in his career for a short period. At that time it was not a banned substance. If you are going to believe every allegation then no one whose name was mentioned in the same sentence as steroids should be admitted to the hall. Even more so if your allegations or the medias are because of back acne then well thats not very convincing at all. Plus how would the media know about his back acne situation…seems kind of funny to me. Apparently he gained 20 lbs of muscle mass before the 98 season but prior to that he had a 40 homer season in 97 and 3 30+ homer seasons in the previous 4 years. If Piazza doesnt make it because of such ridiculous allegations by Murray Chass who made the back acne allegations and linked that to steroids that reporter needs to be charged with slander.  

  94. MikhelB 3 years ago

    Bagwell was mentioned a few times when Caminiti said he had used steroids since his Houston years when he was introduced to steroids by a teammate who was succesful and he wanted to be as good. And he behaved more or less well in San Diego until he went back to Houston and was arrested (what never nobody asked MLB was why he never tested positive, nor other known users like David Ortíz and Manny Ramírez, or marihuana user Lincecum).

  95. MB923 3 years ago

    That’s because of Bagwell being great defensively and Thomas mostly being a DH

    Thomas WAR

    Offense – 83.2
    Defense – -7.3

    Bagwell WAR

    Offense – 76.3
    Defense – 3.6

  96. MikhelB 3 years ago

    Steroids and heroin/cocaine was embraced in baseball in the 1980’s. It is just that in the 1990’s the TV market grew when the Sportschannel chain was bought by Murdock and baseball regained its long lost status… though their greed managed to kill baseball on OTA tv. Nowadays if you don’t have a subscription to cable/satellite/MLB you won’t get a lot of YOUR LOCAL team on TV.

  97. MikhelB 3 years ago

    too bad that Caminiti is dead, but more than once he spoke of a shadowy figure in his Houston years that was a user (that’s where he goot hooked on cocaine and alcohol).

  98. MB923 3 years ago

    Like Jim Rice right? lol

  99. raffish 3 years ago

    It’s not a rumor if someone says, “I think…”

    For me, the “evidence” cannot be ignored.But you make a cogent argument to the contrary.

  100. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    Baseball certainly has an odd relationship with substances.  Gaylord Perry was considered “crafty” because he threw the spitter.  Bill Lee was about lit on fire because he said in an interview he put pot on his cereal.  Every game of the season MLB turns the sale of overpriced and overserved alcohol into a cash cow.  It’s really no different than broader society.  We’ll sit here soaking in our beer commercials…downing the suds and all the while rant and rave about how criminal marijuana is.

    As far as greenies go.  The case could be made that they are more “Performance Enablers” than “Performance Enhancers.”  I’m not advocating anything..but where exactly is the line drawn.  Do we toss out the coffee makers because players might get hopped up on caffeine?

  101. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    Now I’m curious as to how many ground rule doubles Babe hit during that span?  Very interesting.

  102. Guest 3 years ago

    I think it’s the opposite … he started using steroids to help battle injuries in the mid-90s.  He would’ve had to retire before his 70 hr season had he not used steroids.

  103. melonis_rex 3 years ago

     The BBWAA released a statement defending Bill Conlin, one of its own members who is being accused of child molestation and just resigned from his post. 

    Any moral judgment being passed on by the BBWAA is moot. 

  104. Vlae Kershner 3 years ago

    That was just Jack O’Connell being dumb. The real writers disowned the statement the next day.

  105. jigokusabre 3 years ago

    Who’s talking about Jeter? Also, a number of Jeter’s All-Star appearances were inflated by Joe Torre.

  106. jigokusabre 3 years ago

    Derek Jeter was on a the same team as a number of Steroids users, are you saying he ‘roided?

  107. Lanidrac 3 years ago

    Well, it’s not like Caminiti didn’t have dozens of Houston teammates over the years, so he was obviously talking about Bagwell. [/sarcasm]

  108. Van Wilhoite 3 years ago

    And Larkin never spit on an umpire.

  109. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    A quick Google came up with a rough answer that Babe Ruth likely hit 22 home runs that would today be considered ground rule doubles.  The records don’t appear to be kept…and the data seems to be based on the major league average across the board for the era.  So the 22 is a conjectured number.  That allows for 2 a season..which is reasonable.

  110. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    Babe Ruth also lost between 50-75 home runs during his era due to the rule about a home run landing in fair territory.

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