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By Steve Adams | at
Email a copy of 'Bullpen Decisions That Have Potentially Impacted Earning Power' to a friend
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JFactor
Better yet, stop valuing saves as a stat in arbitration and as a measurement of value.
TheMichigan
No, I think there would be a disagreement here, it should be counted, what should also be counted is Holds. Holds should be made an official stat, and count for a tad less than a save in arbitration, since Set up men are basically 8th inning closers, and it gives set up men an achievement, I think Wade Davis would thank me.
JFactor
The amount of control a pitcher has over saves and holds is incredibly small.
They are worthless stats, much like pitcher wins and loses.
getting a save with a three run lead vs a one run lead. Coming in in the 7th in a higher leverage spot than getting a 3 out save in the 9th up 3 are incredibly different values to a team.
If you enter in the 7th up 3-2 with nobody out and the bases loaded and get a 6-4-3 double play but the rubber on third scores, you just got a blown save with absolutely no chance from your manager to have even earned the save in the first place.
It’s a worthless stat and it shouldn’t be determining pay
davidcoonce74
Saves and holds are arbitrary. They are determined by the manager. If we got rid of the save stat tomorrow it would be great; managers would then stop managing to a stat and instead bringing in their best pitchers into the highest-leveraged situations.
sportznut1000
I agree with you to an extent but in their defense, what exacty do you deem a deciding factor? Era, whip and k/9inning? Inherited runners would make sense but again you could allow two runners to score off a bases loaded no out situation where you allow 2 sacrifice flys. Or a runner to score where your up by 5 when everyone concedes a run for a out. Every sport has trouble with this. In hockey they use gaa for goalies but dont seperate goals allowed on the power play. So a goalie could allow two goals when on a 5 on 3 disadvantage and it counts the same as a goalie who allows two short handed goals.
In football interceptions count the same wether its just a hail mary to end the half or a deflecfion off a wrs hands into a defenders.
Im a giants fan, casilla got a blown save the other day because a sure thing double play ball was botched and the runner on 3rd scored. They got one runner out and since you cant assume the double play an error wasnt charged. There are imperfections with almost every pitching category but until they find something better this makes the most sense
Ray Ray
I’m so sick of hearing that pitcher wins and losses are worthless. That is only partially true. Pitcher wins and losses for relievers have much less value, but there is still some value for starters. Yes they don’t tell the whole story, but neither does ANY single statistic. Wins and losses can tell you whether a pitcher will fight and struggle to win that 2-1 game. I know I will get chastised for it, but I would much rather have a pitcher that wins a 5-4 game than one that loses a 1-0 game.
I don’t get why people have such a problem with wins. If you don’t like them as a stat, that’s fine, but everything doesn’t have to think that nor are they wrong for thinking that. I don’t like FIP as a stat. I think it is meaningless to look at what might have happened in a vacuum rather than what actually happened in real life, but I am never going to call that stat worthless if someone thinks it has value. That’s just too self-absorbed and rude in my opinion.
MB923
I think Losses for Relievers (setup men and closers in particular) are undervalued because they probably 9 times out of 10 have 1 of 2 roles – Protect the lead or keep the game tied.
And if they threw the same number of innings in your sample, and assuming all runs are earned, give me the pitcher who gave up 1 run and the loss over the pitcher who gave up 4 runs and the win
I agree with you on FIP. I think it’s worthless. It suppose to tell you how a pitcher does without defense, but that is not true because Innings Pitched is a stat in its formula. It basically credits pitchers for getting defensive outs (which is fine) but it also ignores all in the park hits allowed by a pitcher. Why give credit to a pitcher for getting a batter out but assume a pitcher isn’t responsible for any hit allowed? (Except HR)
go_jays_go
@Ray Ray
Your logic is so flawed. Pitching Wins are an official MLB statistic, meaning, they impact a players’ earnings in arbitration, whereas FIP has no impact.
It’s not about liking or disliking stats, it’s that players are rewarded (or penalized) for the wrong results.
baseballrat
Results are Results. If you lose 10 games, but have a 2.04 era then that still Results in a good payday. If you win 10 games
baseballrat
And have 5.04 era I’m sure there won’t be a payday
go_jays_go
“Results are Results. If you lose 10 games, but have a 2.04 era then that still Results in a good payday. If you win 10 games and have 5.04 era I’m sure there won’t be a payday”
Brandon Morrow 2011 stats:
ERA 4.72
W/L Record 11-11
K’s 203
Brandon Morrow’s 2012 salary was $4m, which marked his second time in arbitration process
That’s a reasonably significant payday for 2011 standards.
One Fan
Bravo Jeffy. Well said!
JFactor
I love WPA for relievers
JFactor
Correct this.
And FIP is what happened.
It’s the measurement of their BB, K, and HR allowed. It’s showing us what a pitcher should have earned. The real differences from FIP to ERA is the frequency a pitcher strands runners (and some are better at that than others, high K guys for example)