While he’ll unquestionably enter camp as a starter, Carlos Martinez may well end up in the bullpen, MLB.com’s Jenifer Langosch reports.
Martinez ended the 2018 season in a relief role, though that decision was driven by the practical fact that he did not have time to work fully back from a shoulder injury. Though he (rather unsurprisingly) pitched well out of the pen, the stated plan was to slide Martinez back into the rotation.
Now, with camp opening, there are signals from the Cards’ uniformed staff that Martinez could be seen internally as a late-inning relief asset. Pitching coach Mike Maddux, in particular, dropped a few winks at the possibility, saying he “liked [Martinez] out of the bullpen a lot.”
“Right now, Carlos is in the rotation, but that’s the great thing about the flexibility we have,” said Maddux. “You might be a starter in Spring Training, but you might end up in the bullpen or something like that.”
While he wasn’t quite as suggestive, skipper Mike Shildt also wasn’t shy about acknowledging the possibility of Martinez returning to the relief unit. He emphasized that Martinez is “expected to be a starter,” but in the same breath made clear that “he is a piece that could transition to the bullpen.”
“The thing we like about Carlos is the flexibility that he can bring, and his effectiveness in both roles,” Schildt also said. “So as you look at your total team and what it looks like, you always want to have the option or the availability to know that there is flexibility.”
Those comments obviously don’t represent anything approaching a clear indication that the Cardinals actually intend to bump Martinez to the pen. Still, that’s an awful lot of discussion of the possibility at the outset of camp. Both Maddux and Schildt expressed openness, if not more, to a reprisal of Martinez’s late-2018 role.
We’ll see how things turn out, but a permanent change of job titles would be a significant development. Martinez has had plenty of success as a starter and would surely have greater potential value in that role. He’s one of the highest-upside hurlers in a starting mix that has quite a lot of talent but also some real uncertainties. Martinez is also already being paid close to top dollar for a reliever, with three years and $34.5MM left on his extension. That deal’s option-year price tags ($17MM and $18MM) seem much likelier to be appealing if Martinez is working from the rotation.
Why not sign Dallas keuchel then? Carlos, Miller, Hicks and Reyes is a nasty bullpen. Keuchel, Mikolas, Wacha, Flaherty and waino would be a great rotation to go with that.
SP – Mikolas, Flaherty, Wacha, Waino, and Reyes (Hudson as #6)
RP – Cmart, Miller, Hicks, Brebbia, and take your pick of three others
Agree that they should kick the tires on Keuchel.
Wainwright is done. Reyes might pitch 60 innings this year. If you’re going to take a premium stuff guy and stick him in the pen this year it is Reyes, not Martinez.
They MAY consider him for the bullpen. I think this is a plan B or C if Hicks or someone else doesn’t pan out.
I also agree if you want to put someone out in the pen to help out. Put the young arm who’s had trouble staying healthy the last 2 seasons. Quit jerking around a guy who quite honestly needs stability in what his role is. If he can get his head out of you know where he’s a top 15 starter.
I think this may be ultimately a signal they’ve got no intention of acquiring anything else this offseason unless someone like Kimbrel just happens to be in beggar mode like Holland was last year.
I have no problem passing on Gio, no matter what the price is. Well I might kick the tires at league minimum but only as a swing bullpen guy. He’s almost as worn out as Waino at this point and I wouldn’t want to count on him in the rotation.
Keuchel is interesting depending on the price but not at Boras pricing. 3-4 years at 15 per? Sure. 7/140 like Boras wants? No way.
Yeah … I wouldn’t pay good money for Gio.
And, I said in my blog, 3/$50 plus an option, and some incentives, on Keuchel. So, we’re right there on that.
IMO….. Gant>Gio
If Wainwright fails as a starter, he will go to the bullpen. Reyes is gonna start the season in Memphis. The Cardinals are deep in pitching. No need to start panicking.
That would probably solve our left-handed starting pitcher problem
Solution looking for a problem. There is no left handed starting pitcher problem.
We can definitely afford to sign Keuchel and Kimbrel. Don’t know why we don’t want to
Well, Waino’s not really a starter, which is reason No. 1 they need to sign the likes of Keuchel ANd not move Martinez to the pen.
Mikolas, Martinez, Keuchel, Wacha, Flaherty as your starters.
It’s kind of frustrating to see that many Cards fans assume Waino will be starter-quality, rather than a name Shildt has penciled in a lineup.
Per FIP, WHIP and ERA+, Waino was below average the last three years. Most notable, his walk rate has gone up three straight years. What makes people think he’ll even get up to average this year? Let alone not fall further below average?
Otherwise, the bullpen in general will be better with a full season of Matheny not being the manager, amirite?
The way the defense played last year, there’s no way I’d want to roll Keuchel out there. Cards have plenty of young arms, they won’t want the money or the time guaranteed into Keuchel when they potentially could be without goldy and ozuna next year
Goldy will help solidify that defense. True that he could leave after a year, but, I think Mo will do everything he can to nail him down.
Besides, all they need to do otherwise is sign Machado, and that defense is really nailed down.
As far as leaving? Remember, it’s pretty likely Wacha will walk next year. Waino surely won’t be back in 2020. And again, don’t count your Reyes until he hatches.
3 years plus an option for Keuchel? Would be reasonable in my book.
I like the idea of waiting and going and getting a guy like mad bum or Robbie Ray, if in a position to do so, at the trade deadline
Well, that’s a possibility. That said, if Keuchel is too pricey, Gio Gonzales is out there right now, no waiting needed. But Mo won’t even sign him.
I want no part of Gio at this point in his career. Velocity is down. K rate is down. Walk rate is up. Hard contact is up. If there’s a bad indicator peripheral stat to be found then Gio has them all right now and they’ve been trending that way for a couple years. Hard pass.
Why machado? Dejong is equally skilled at defense as Machado. Dejong if he plays an entire season is a 25-30 hr 80-90 rbi man with a 265 avg. Machado is a 30hr 90rbi 282 avg over career. I know there are other intangibles but 25 million more a year? PASS
I assume you also don’t mean to slide Dejong to 3b and move Carp to RF. That makes the OF weak on defense.
Money if was going to be spent; LH starter is always nice especially if you can get Keuchel on a short deal and then sign Goldy to extension.
Mozeliak will blow signing a Goldy long term contract. Just as he hasn’t been able to sign any other impact Free Agents. Now if Goldy was a Fowler or Cecil, Mozeliak would sign him to big bucks long time.
10th in DRS, 10th in UZR, 12th in defensive value
I know they made a lot of errors but the defense really wasn’t bad and has the potential to be much better. Ozzie used to make a bunch of errors too but they were on balls no one else would have even touched so it’s kind of misleading.
Goldschmidt, Wong, DeJong, Bader, and O’Neill are all Gold Glove level defenders. Wong and Bader may be the best defenders at their positions in the league.
Ozuna has won a Gold Glove but he’s probably just solidly above average if the arm is healthy. Carpenter looks terrible but has never graded out below average at 3B.
Fowler is really the only weak link right now and hopefully O’Neill just takes his job and runs with it.
You also have to remember that Dejong was hurt for awhile last year with a broken Hand…the defense is not that bad when he is healthy along with Wong and Bader in CF that is a rough defense up the middle
In one year the Cards went from an awful defense to an above average one. and in 2019 they may be netter with goldschmidt. outside of martinez when he’s in, the only below average defender is carpenter.
They talked with Arizona enough already that if it was doable it’d probably be done, but I’d like to see a deal for Greinke.
If they were going to get Greinke it likely would have been with Goldschmidt to keep the prospect cost down some.
I think they’re looking to motivate Carlos M this spring in an effort to avoid duplicating his start last season.
We know why. The owner is cheap.
main reason teams do this is because he cant hack it as a starter. (pitch mix quality, durability issues)
Well you aren’t talking about Carlos. Statistically a top 10 pitcher overall 3 previous seasons.
Carlos seems like a great option to close out games. Let’s go get Keuchel. Spend some of this money and win another championship. We all know the team can afford it.
Well this would be universally stupid. Reyes is a question mark. Waino is done. Lets take the Cards’ best starer and put him in the pen to pitch 60 innings instead of letting him pitch 180-200 in the rotation. How does anyone think this is a good idea?
Keuchel would be fine but only to help alleviate the Waino/Reyes question.
Because he doesn’t pitch 200 innings.
2015 – 179.2 in his first full season as a starter
2016 – 195.1
2017 – 205
2018 – 118.2 in about half a season due to injury
Yep, definitely not a 200 inning guy.
stupid comment. threw 205 innings in 2017. injured half the season last year still put up nearly 120. 100% healthy this year I wouldnt rule out 180-200 IP
Also they’re considering putting Martinez in the pen, not Mikolas or Flaherty. Martinez is overrated and not even close to the best pitcher in that rotation. He’d be one of the best in pen though along with Miller.
Again take out injury year and 2015-2017 he was a top 10 pitcher in all of baseball.. You can’t argue facts.
Dakota Hudson, John gant, Austin gomber, alex Reyes. There’s plenty of options if Martinez is the closer.
The only one of those that has the potential to be as good as Martinez is Reyes. Reyes is only going to pitch about 60-80 innings this year trying to make his way back from injury. Wish there was a role on the team that pitched about 60-80 innings a year where a guy with premium stuff could excel. Oh well. Guess there isn’t.
If miller is healthy and Martinez is in pen 1/3 of the game is locked down. Hudson is ready to be in the rotation. Gant demonstrated he’s better in the rotation and gomber is fine at the backend. Reyes and Cabrera in the bullpen at some point will give the cardinals the best bullpen in baseball.
We have almost 4 seasons worth of innings of Martinez being a top 15 pitcher in baseball. We have about 100 innings of Gant being a number 5 starter. Please explain why it makes any sense to limit the innings of the much better pitcher. That’s like saying you want to use 2004 Albert Pujols as a pinch hitter only and replace him at 1B with Jose Martinez.
You obviously have no idea about what you’re speaking of.
Feel free to enlighten me then.
Carlos Martinez has been a top 15 starter in the NL by whatever stat you want to use since he was put in the rotation in 2015. Last year was obviously a disappointment due to injury but he was in the Cy Young race until he got hurt.
Reyes was the top pitching prospect in baseball before seasons lost to TJS and a lat tendon tear that required surgical repair. He could still be great. He might not.
Gant is a 5th starter. Hudson might be a 3 if everything breaks right or he might end up as a dominant pen guy since he only has one good pitch.. Gomber is a 4/5 starter.
Hudson has a very good slider. Not yet absolutely controllable, but beyond a work in progress. I wish Cards’ fans would ease up on the rotation issues. Gomber and Ponce de Leon are more than adequate backups. They have at least 6 starters and that doesn’t include Gant, who pitched like a reliable #3 last year. Who knows about Waino? I say he pitches through May 15th as their #5. Reyes has had two significant injuries, but at this point they are behind him. A little too early to tag him as injury prone. What they need is a lefthanded bat in right with thump. Hoping Fowler rebounds is much more problematic than the rotation. Assuming they are out on Harper, Marwin Gonzales makes a lot of sense. I know he is looking for an everyday job, but they could get him 400 ABs, as a super utility guy and be the right field protection if Fowler struggles. Martinez only goes to the pen if Reyes and Waino both Excel.
Finally someone mentions Ponce, thanks for that.
Lots of options for bullpen and starters. Most likely going to be one of the best in baseball.
Please do not do this. He needs pushed to embrace the number 1 starter role. Do not waste his huge talent in the bullpen when the other starters are not that strong and rotation would be weakened without him.
Carlos Martinez has the stuff to be a top of the rotation starter and at his age (27) this should be the time he breaks out. As great as he is out of the bullpen the Cardinals have other options.
I’ll go one further; if the Cardinals opt to send Martinez to the bullpen they shouldn’t be considered a real threat in the NL Central. Hand the keys to the division to the Cubs or the Brewers because Wainwright and Reyes cannot be trusted in the rotation.
Martinez would probably be a stud in the later innings. It’s brutal to watch him when he starts. Hes got a lot of talent and a lot of movement, but he walks too many batters. I’m sure batting against him towards the end of a close game vs at the beginning, those close pitches are less likely to be laid off of.
It doesn’t matter if he’s “brutal to watch” when he starts if he performs, which he has always done. This is a top-15 pitcher in the NL, and people are talking about him like he’s a #3. You don’t hear this same talk about Kyle Hendricks or Jon Lester.
He’s definitely got the stuff to be a top 15 starter. Maybe I just watched the starts when he was ‘off’. He looked a lot mor dominant in his limited relief appearances
He had like a 1.6 ERA before he got hurt last year as a starter and that was a significant chunk of games. If he can figure out how to focus better and be ready to go in the first inning, he’s going to be dominant.
He finished season with a 3.43 as a starter and 1.47 as a reliever. His talent is without question, but he looks incredibly more comfortable out of the bullpen. If this is the path the Cardinals take welcome the 3 headed monster of Hicks, Miller and Martinez
I’d take a starter with a 3.43 ERA on my team.
Whatever they do, they need to keep Reyes in the pen.
He and Hicks represent a filthy 8th and 9th inning duo.
100 mph doesn’t last in the rotation from a health and longevity stand point.
Same argument as Martinez. If he’s healthy you’re wasting his talent throwing 60 innings in the pen instead of 180+ going forward.
This year as he’s coming back the pen makes a lot of sense. Going forward if healthy? He needs to be in the rotation.
If you are saying Reyes should be in the rotation, I will have to disagree.
It’s the same reason that Edwin Diaz and Aroldis Chapman aren’t in the rotation, just to name a couple. Not to mention, those two guys prove that a RP can be just as important as a SP.
A really good relief season is about 2 wins which is about what your average #3-4 starter is worth every year. Aces are typically worth double that or more. Why would you waste wins?
This year Reyes needs to be in the pen so they can limit his innings. If he’s healthy going into 2020 then turn the beast lose in the rotation.
this guy is horribly underrated… one of the best in NL and never hear about him. great ERA and peripherals to match. only knock on him I would say is a little high walk rate, but not terrible.
i mean there is no real need for him to be moved unless there is an ussue. STL already has one of the most (if not the most) underrated bullpens in the league and lots of depth. i think there are at least 6 ML ready starters on their roster, and many that are viable out of the BP too. if the Cards want to develop Hicks as a starter, or Martinez starts to become more injury prone, moving him to BP would make sense, but its not nessicary.
also, i may add, Reyes is by far a better option to move to the BP.
Read the STLP article that talked of Carlos Martinez and … “failure to properly take care of his body”, “earning trust back”, “be ready to pitch”, “must live up to his skill set”, “improved workouts over the offseason”. Seems like the redbird coaching staff was beating around the bush a bit. Can any Cardinal fans enlighten me as to specific issues with Martinez? What specific instances were the coaches getting at with these subtle jabs?
He dyes his hair and he is animated in the dugout
Which is completely nonsense, and I thought it would go away when Matheny is fired. But I guess Matheny was the symptom, not the problem.
What in the world? Baseball players not being able to have a personality and express themselves is part of why young people don’t care about baseball as much anymore. The best player in the game (Trout) is seen as one of the most boring. It’s like why young NFL fans liked Joe Namath and all the old guys liked Johnny Unitas.
If he wants to dye his hair then who cares.
Part of the problem is he had some off field problems in a local late night bar, coupled with inconsistent performance which causes many to question his focus. Some have hoped he would just pitch and lose some or the antics. He seems at times to be his own worst enemy
The bar thing was like 5 years ago.
He’s not any more inconsistent than any other really good starting pitcher.
Too many people buy into Hrabosky’s narratives I think.
I wouldn’t sign Keuchel for that kind of money – plus you lose a draft pick . Your internal options are just fine, go with someone from the inside if you decide to move CMart to the pen
Gant was a great starter in the second half last year
He had a FiP of almost 5 and was walking almost 5 guys per 9 innings. He was awful in the second half.
In other words, he still doesn’t have the brain of a starter. The guy could be top tier but he can’t focus. He doesn’t put in the prep, you can see he has gained weight (not muscle), and has no urgency when he pitches. It’s frustrating to see what probably is a top 5 NL pitching talent wasted like that. Like Edinson Volquez, “million dollar talent with a 10 cent head.”
I’m in on the Keuchel thoughts after reading this. 3/50? It seems like Martinez has spoiled his leash with the staff. Time to look elsewhere for stability, whether that’s Keuchel (agree with above poster, don’t want to lose that pick, but I could see it) or an internal option.
Jack Flaherty is the one you want to lock up though. Whatever you do, prioritize that guy. He is the future.
The results say otherwise so I’m not sure where this stuff is coming from. Matheny didn’t like anyone showing emotion on the field which obviously is the opposite of Carlos. Funny how it was always okay for Wainwright to dance in the dugout and play tricks on people though. So glad Matheny is gone.
I didn’t realize “Top 15 Pitcher in Baseball” the last 4 years was wasting his talent but okay.
I’m guessing most of these comments are from the STL-PD article that Ortiz wrote last year sometime. Ortiz is a joke.
That is one giant straw man. Your anti-Matheny mania is showing. Please don’t take bad arguments and project them onto things I didn’t say. I said nothing about dancing, goofing off, or showing emotion. You did.
No, the lack of focus is evident through actually watching the guy pitch. He’s brilliant sometimes and sometimes he just loses a hitter for no reason whatsoever. There are swaths of hitters where he isn’t even competitive. And you can tell from his body language that he isn’t.
And talent is wasted when it has the ability to be higher than it is. If he is a top 15 talent (like you said), fine. He should be a top 5 talent (like I said). When talent exceeds your current bucket but doesn’t spill into the next one, that’s a waste, no matter how good you are at the time.
I have no idea to what article you’re referring. I don’t read the PD hardly at all. If Ortiz is the guy I’m thinking of, yeah, he sucks. But I didn’t read the article.
Since we’re throwing out wild accusations, let me take a stab at one. LaRussa ran a MUCH tighter ship than Matheny did. Matheny gets this rap as a totalitarian but he was laissez-faire compared to LaRussa’s “my way or the highway” approach. So based on that and your complete ignorance (or disregard) of that, you’re either not much of a fan, or your a blind Matheny hater that would find something wrong with everything he did.
Then every pitcher in baseball doesn’t have the brain of a starter. They all lose hitters they shouldn’t. You can’t look at Martinez’s numbers and say he’s failing. He’s an Ace and has been since he stepped in the rotation. His results are top 1% of the top 1% of the pool. We’ll just have to agree to disagree that he’s not using all this talent.
I was referring to the article referenced in this thread.
Great, now they’re posting based on signals from Cards’ uninformed staff.
What’s next, “I know a guy who said Paul Goldschmit might start at 1B”?
Pretty sure that is uniformed, not uninformed. Lol
Baseball ‘experts’ writing off a champion pitcher in Adam Wainwright, asserting & assuming that “Waino is done”. You are great ‘fans’. Can you tell me what the lottery numbers will be next week.
Waino has been bad for the last 3 years. He’s 37. Why would you think a player who has been bad will suddenly revert to his earlier career at that age?
JeremyR
Why would you think that a champion like Wainwright can’t correct his problems, he’s also had some injury issues over those past 3 years. Admittedly his whip and some other stats are up but his K9 is also still there. You start him off in the rotation, if he fails he can move to the pen. However, I am not like you and some others here, I can’t foretell the future.
also it’s not really if he reverts back into his previous self all we want is #3 to #5 or bp role but you keep a guy like wanio around because what he’s done/mean to the cards and what he can teach the young kids in st and the reg season i think a lot of us forget in today’s age of advanced stats that this is still a game played by people and there are things players can bring to the table that can’t be put on a stat sheet
His K/9 is about 1.5 lower than it was at peak. His BB/9 rate has doubled. His hard hit contact has jumped a bunch. His velocity is down about 2 miles an hour across the board. He is coming off multiple injuries and he’s 37.
I love Waino but at some point your body just can’t do it anymore and he’s at that point. He used to have 2 plus pitches and the plus plus curve. He still has the plus plus curve but everything else is gone. The cutter is at best average now and everything else is well below. At best you put him in the pen and hope he doesn’t walk the park while getting Ks with the curve.
6 18 22 23 24 36.
trade carlos
There is no way Carlos ends up in the pen. Well, only if he is ineffective as a starter.. His floor has been solid #2-3 and ceiling could be ace level. You don’t waste that to fix pen issues.
Wow – A Cardinal thread with no comments from daved……somehow I feel cheated. and a little sad. daved if you’re out there we miss you.
Lol don’t poke the bear
I poked a beaver
Stuff like this makes me wonder if Mike Matheny wasn’t really the problem with the coaching staff…
I’m sure he’d be happy about this severely limits his earning power
Conveniently throw water on the “sign Kimbrel” rumblings.
He is a starter that needs to get more consistent way to early to give up on a still young arm signed to an extension. If he falters let him work it out in the pen but not beforehand he’s too valuable
Waino was a surprise last ST. He looked at that time like he was back, the problem is the mileage on that arm. He could be solid for about 15 starts or so this year, just need to be ready to sit him on the DL at the first signs of trouble, then bring him back out when he doesn’t have a dead arm. Almost like stashing some starts at AAA with the pitchers with options.
He has a closers mentality
Actually, it is his Mentality, or lack of it that is getting him sent to the bullpen. He’s a head case.