Eighteen years ago today, the Angels traded Lee Stevens to the Expos for minor leaguer Jeff Tuss, but Tuss refused to report to his new team. Keith Morrison, another minor leaguer, was included in the deal instead, and Tuss never played affiliated baseball again.
Here are today's batch of links…
- Chris Carpenter told MLB.com's Matthew Leach that he's not worried about his future with the Cardinals. The right-hander is under contract for 2011 with a $15MM club option for 2012, but an extension for Albert Pujols might push the 35-year-old Carpenter out of town if the team needs to shed payroll.
- Richard Griffin of The Toronto Star reports that the Blue Jays offered Russell Martin the same amount of money as the Yankees, but the catcher signed with New York because of a better opportunity to win (Twitter link). Shi Davidi of The Canadian Press tweets that the Jays wanted Martin to catch four times a week as well as play another position.
- Jeff Francis said the Blue Jays did not show any interest in him before he joined the Royals according to Davidi on Twitter. Francis grew up in Canada, but nowhere close to Toronto.
- Chad Jennings of the The Journal News takes a look at the Yankees' multiyear relief contract from the last decade.
- Derrick Goold of The St. Louis Post-Dispatch tweets that Cardinals GM John Mozeliak has pledged to keep negotiations about a contract extension with Albert Pujols private.
- The Rangers offered Jim Thome more than $4MM before he decided to sign with the Twins for $3MM, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (on Twitter). We knew that Thome turned down more money from Texas, but now we know how much.
- Cubs chairman Tom Ricketts told fans that he has confidence in GM Jim Hendry at today's Cubs Convention according to MLB.com's Carrie Muskat (on Twitter).
- Matt Gelb of The Philadelphia Inquirer says this winter's market for free agent relievers has been wonderful for Ryan Madson. The Phillies' setup man is due to become a free agent next offseason after his three-year, $12MM contract expires.
As crazy as it sounds for a set up guy, Madson has been right around 1.5 WAR for the past four seasons. I could see a deal for 3/$20M in his future next off season. And, he’s coming straight outta Looooong Beach, represent.
Haha – You must not know which other relievers will be hitting free agency next off season along with Madson. 3/20, not a chance!
You must not know what WAR means……
By the way, Scott Boras (Madson’s agent) and Rafael Soriano said you sound like a fool.
Really? That’s your argument? That I don’t know what WAR means? If I knew how to do that rolling eyes icon, I would so use it here and now!
Yes yes and my Supply and Demand textbook says the same to you.
When you’re ready to have a real and adult debate about this, holla at me.
I see nothing worth debating. I just blew away your argument.
If Boras got $35M for Soriano, you don’t think he can get $15M LESS for Madson?
Get your facts straight before putting anyone one blast, son.
no, no he is actually right. There is a outstanding crop of relievers that make this pack look like fodder available next off season. Supply and Demand definitely apply. If there is more supply, the demand will drop.
Not arguing that, arguing the number. If Soriano is worth $35M, Mad-Dog with his usual 1.5 WAR, is worth at least $20M.
That’s a big “IF”.
What is an “IF”? Madson’s WAR has been remarkably consistent going back over four years.
Madson is consistent and is an asset to any team, but the statement you made was “IF Soriano is worth $35M…” That’s the “IF” I referred to, because I think that’s a drastic overpay even by Yankee standards.
I wasn’t referring to Madson. That should be obvious considering there is ONLY a single “IF” in the statement you made which I was replying to.
Madson is consistent and is an asset to any team, but the statement you made was “IF Soriano is worth $35M…” That’s the “IF” I referred to, because I think that’s a drastic overpay even by Yankee standards.
I wasn’t referring to Madson. That should be obvious considering there is ONLY a single “IF” in the statement you made which I was replying to.
Madson is consistent and is an asset to any team, but the statement you made was “IF Soriano is worth $35M…” That’s the “IF” I referred to, because I think that’s a drastic overpay even by Yankee standards.
I wasn’t referring to Madson. That should be obvious considering there is ONLY a single “IF” in the statement you made which I was replying to.
i’m not sure as the other guy though, you can never be 100% sure.
off the top of my head, some relievers available next off season:
heath bell
John Broxton
John Papelbon
Jose Valverde(club option)
Matt Thornton
Fernando Rodney
matt capps
koji uehara
k-rod
brad lidge
mike gonzalez
I think that you need to remember that each one of those players will need to be replaced by the team that they are currently playing for. I think that might actually raise the market value of the best of those relievers and drag the price for the lesser relievers up with it. The amount that teams are paying for relievers this year certainly has to help next years free agent class.
I disagree. Soriano was the classic example of big fish in a small pond. Next year, many teams will look internally to closing options, and that will create a surplus of closers, inevitably bringing down their asking prices drastically. There is a reason Soriano didn’t accept arbitration or resign on a one year deal. He’d be going up against that list fman just posted.
since you brought it up, Gregerson/Adams will take over for Bell. Kuo could take over for Broxton. Santos/Sale could replace Thornton(if he is even the closer this year). Papelbon will be replaced by Bard. K-rod will be gone whether he has a proper heir or not. Valverde i can see being overtaken by Zumaya/Perry. Closers are just not in quite as high of demand as they use to be especially with how arbitration messes things up.
And you still have to fill the role all of those guys that take over for the guy that leaves. Just because they are switching teams doesn’t mean that there is an increase in inventory. It just means that there will be more high end pitchers potentially switching teams which means that more teams will be looking to replace/retain high end pitchers. In my opinion, that will increase the price of the best of those on the market and that, in turn, will raise the rate for the rest available. Kind of “the rising tide floats all boats” theory.
Since you brought those guys up, if you look at the WARs this list has posted in recent years, aside from Bell and Thornton, Madson has the best combination of results, consistency, age, and lack of off-field issues on this entire list.
Best believe Boras will make sure the world knows this, and again, if he got $35M for Soriano, he will have no problem getting $20M for Madson.
You’re the dick Cheney of this site. All you think about is WAR!
Yea, basing an argument around an objective measure of talent is such a terrible thought. Good work on the back-door name calling too. You learn that at recess on Friday?
WAR isn’t objective for relievers though. It is entirely a counting metric and BP guys have such limited sample sizes since they only go like 60-70 innings which messes up the WAR figures. With relievers, your best off sticking with WHIP, K:BB, GB%, FB%, HR/FB rate. note i didn’t say ERA.
Have you seen Madson’s numbers? When you put together WARs of 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, and 1.4 in the past four years, the sample size becomes more than relevant.
Not to mention, aside from one bad outing against the Dodgers in 2009, he has been lights out in the post-season.
$20M will be no problem.
Actually, no it isn’t. However, basing an argument SOLELY on an objective measure of talent is a terrible terrible thought.
See the difference? Get out of your WAR vacuum.
Don’t forget Soriano (player option)
Is this a joke? Am I getting punk’d?! Good one guys hahaaha
EDIT: Sigh, I’ll just post this anyway to help you understand the debate not worth having.
Next year’s free agent class consists of Heath Bell, Jonathan Broxton, Matt Capps, Ryan Franklin, Joe Nathan, Jonathan Papelbon and Francisco Rodriguez. If you read the Matt Gelb article you are referencing, you would know this.
Now, what I don’t see, is WHERE this 20m is going to come from. WHICH TEAM will be willing to give such a large amount to a relief pitcher when they can sign an elite or very good closer for the same, or less. You see, when there is a large supply of something, the demand goes down. Such is the case in next FA class. Because there are so many closers, their prices will not be nearly as high as they were this off season. And the people to take a large hit will be the middle relief pitchers like Madson, because teams will be able to sign closers for their middle relief, a la Soriano. Which brings me back to which team will pay… Yankees were willing to pay Soriano the $ because, well, they’re the Yankees and it’s kinda their thing.
Teams’ that will have closers hitting free agency, and my opinion on their course of action to fill that void:
Boston – go with the cheaper option in Bard, may bring in a few cheap relief arms. No way they pay 3/20 for middle relief when paying pennies to the closer. Plus, A-Gon’s deal should be big.
Dodgers – Re-sign Broxton, or go internal. McCourt’s divorce leaves finances constricted
Cardinals – Could make a play for a top closer, after Albert is locked up and if finances let them.
Twins – Re-sign Nathan or Capps, or another top closer. Price/value dictates who.
Padres – They have good pitching internally, but most likely, bring back Bell, or another top closer.
Mets – Probably not even in the mix because KRod hits his vesting option for 17m.
So I ask you, WHICH team (not counting the Yanks because they already have Soriano, Mo, et al) is willing to pay 3/20 to Madson when they can get a top closer for about the same amount?!
There. Got my facts straight, son. Your turn?
Thanks Professor, but I still think Madson gets $20M.
1.5 WAR * 4.5M per win = $6.75 * 3 = Appx $20M
It really ain’t rocket science.
This is a joke. Thanks for wasting my time. (8 min, btw)
Did you forget to “like” your own reply this time too?
I didn’t “like” any of my replies. It says who clicked like… But good job straying away from your failed logic and 3rd grade argument.
Actually, you aren’t even able to “like” your own replies. There isn’t an option for that. It’s only “edit” or “reply” …no button for “like” hahaaha failed again?
I’m still waiting for the brilliant objective argument to prove me wrong in my belief that Madson will get more than $20M.
I suspect I will be waiting for a while too…..
Contrary to popular belief, he who laughs last does not, in fact, laugh the loudest. Ironically enough, he who laughs the loudest laughs the loudest. I’ll give that a minute to sink in. Though, I also suspect I will be waiting for a while…..
Wait, is that a haiku?
he already did, that WAR isn’t the end all metric. And he’s right saying this…
You don’t have the option to “like” your own replies. hahaha
This isn’t facebook buddy
Ryan Franklin will be retiring after his contract is up and Mitchell Boggs/Jason Motte will take over the Closer Role.
agreed, would like to see what Eduardo Sanchez could do as well.
Can’t you see? Logic and objective fact are not allowed within these confines.
Dude, if anything, he is backing up my point. That teams will not need to pay top dollar for top closers, bringing their asking price down, thus there is no way Madson gets that much because of the ripple effect. Your ignorance is annoying.
I think he’s the same guy who called Ryan Howard’s extension a ‘bargain’ because of how many HR’s he’s hit. And if so, you really are wasting your time with this one.
Ummmm…..no.
Can I play too? The Red Sox will probably either not resign Papelbon or will probably resign him for less than he will be awarded in arbitration this year. I’ve seen it predicted many times that Papelbon will be making $11+ million this year. If that is the case, signing Madson for 3/$20m would be very doable and would actually free up money.
I think that you are forgetting that for every reliever that is available, there is a reliever’s spot that needs to be filled. The only things that affect supply/demand are retirements, demotions to the minors, injuries, demotions from starter to reliever, and promotions from minor leagues. The movement of a reliever from one team to another is a net zero when it comes to supply and demand. If anything, it allows the larger payroll teams to outbid the smaller payroll teams for their elite relievers thus raising the salaries of the players coming from the smaller payroll teams.
Don’t forget the Yankees don’t make this deal if not for losing out on Lee and having Javy/Pettitte/Johnson/Thames etc. off the payroll.
If they get Lee or don’t have two double digit salaries coming off the books, Soriano isn’t a Yankee.
Soriano is the exception not the rule. He signed with a team that has a seemingly unlimited payroll.
The rule this off season is that good players get paid WELL. How is Soriano different?
You said “holla” and “adult debate” in the same sentence.
The best part about this thread will be when Madson does get paid, and then I’ll come back here and laugh about it. I almost can’t wait.
3/20 for a set up guy? That is a huge waste of money. Carlos Marmol pitched 87 innings in 2008 and led the league for relievers. Let’s assume that Madson hits that mark. That would be roughly $75,000 an appearance. The average relief pitcher salary is $1.2MM. With the number of free agent relievers who all put up better statistics than Madson, if he signs a contract for three years, it will most likely be in the $10MM-$13MM range. Committing $6.5MM-$7MM on one bull pen guy doesn’t make good fiscal sense.
“Committing $6.5MM-$7MM on one bull pen guy doesn’t make good fiscal sense.”
That’s never stopped anyone before.
At any rate, there’s probably a few teams that would look at Madson as a closer option which will likely drive his market rate up a touch. Whether that touch puts him in the $16-$20mm range is another question.
I agree it’s never stopped anyone, but if a team based the decision on WAR like he is, no team would be giving up 20MM over three years for a 1.5 WAR set up guy.
True. I really doubt that many teams gauge contract offers solely on past WAR numbers. More like need + supply/market value + available funds + predicted future WAR (based mostly on past production, but not entirely).
Madson is a fine setup guy, but I wouldn’t trust him completely as a closer. In a vacuum, thats probably worth 3/12m to 3/14m. But you just know some mid-range team that misses out on top closer will get desperate and convince themselves he can be a shut-down closer and suddenly we’re looking at 3 years/$18 million. Happens almost every year. Especially with bullpen guys.
Repeat after me… The Yankees don’t have to care if a move makes good fiscal sense.
That is all.
See my earlier point about the Soriano signing being the exception.
Scott Downs just said you don’t know what you are talking about either.
I don’t see Madson getting more then Downs for 2 reasons; 1) next year is a deeper reliever pool. 2) Downs is a very effective lefty. The only way I see Madson getting 20 mil is with a 4 or 5 year deal. There aren’t many teams out there that are going to spend 7+ million on a non closing reliever and especially now that the Yankees are out it makes it even tougher.
Scott Downs signed a 3 year $15MM contract. He just called back and said you need to give it up.
Scott Downs signed a 3 year $15MM contract. He just called back and said you need to give it up.
A lot of people bash Jim Hendry; and in some cases, rightfully so. Soriano, Fukudome, Bradley, Zambrano’s extension, and other moves weren’t very smart. However, this is the same guy who netted us Derrek Lee for nothing, Aramis Ramirez for nothing, Carlos Silva for Milton Bradley, Ryan Dempster as a reclamation project, Marlon Byrd for a reasonable price, Ted Lilly for a quality stint, and several other deals that put us in a position to win.
I’d say Hendry has been slightly more good than he has been bad. You can’t deny the Cubs had several chances at the World Series at his helm.
you sound just like me defending dan duquette as sox gm. sometimes the media brainwashes us into believing things that arent 100% accurate.
Dan Duquette will do everything in his power to trade off the farm and win us a World Series!
Sorry, sometimes the old programming still kicks in. Though we do have one big piece that’s a hold over from the Dan Duquette era… he drafted Youk.
moves that DD made that were originally greatly criticized turned out to be the right moves in the end. saying clemens was in the twilight of his career was an accurate statement at the time, DD had no idea clemens would go on to use peds and extend his career and value tremendously. letting mo vaughn walk also turned out to be beneficial, obviously due to injuries, but still. great drafts even if many (MANY) prospects were traded, and some truly great FA acquisitions (damon, pedro, manny)allowed the sox to win the WS after DD’s departure.
Clemens was NOT in the twilight of his career, you can say it was because of PED’s or whatever, but he put how many amazing seasons after he left the Red Sox? I’m not disagreeing that Duquette wasn’t a terrible GM, but to say that giving up on Clemens was the right move is a bit absurd. The next two years in Toronto he put perhaps his best two years ever. In his last season with the Red Sox (after two injury plaged seasons) he pitched 242 innings and struck out 257 with a 3.63era/3.43FIP for a nice 7.6WAR…I’d hardly call that a guy entering the “twilight” of his career. Let me also say that I hate Roger Clemens, so in no way am I sticking up for him because I like him or anything.
ok. the ped allegations against him state the use began in 1998. regardless, after 4 consecutive “less than rocket-like” seasons, wouldnt it have been irresponsible for DD to match or exceed the 4yrs/40M given by the blue jays organization? epstein has shown a knack for knowing when not to give the extra year or so in contracts (although missing terribly with damon), and this may be the same case here with DD, 4 years was just too long to go for a pitcher thought to be on the decline.
oops, pedro wasnt a FA, he was acquired via trade and signed to a 6 yr extension, but you guys knew that already…
BTW apropos of nothing I am listening to Gogol Bordello and thought of you! lol
BTW apropos of nothing I am listening to Gogol Bordello and thought of you! lol
I completely agree. What GM hasn’t made a bad move? Hendry has put a quality club together capable of making the post season 6 of the last 8 years. I never thought he was comfortable spending after 2006, but the team needed to look attractive to potential buyers. This season and last he has shown real creativity. In my opinion his worst signing was John Grabow to the two year deal, and his best deal was trading for Rich Harden in 2008. Everyone complains about him selling the farm, but when was the last time one of the players he traded panned out? Ricky Nolasco is one that comes to mind. I can’t really think of anyone else.
It’s easy to second guess, but Hendry — while making some decent deals which you referenced — has also made some horrendous calls both big and small. How about dumping Wuertz to make room for Heilman? Or bringing in Miles (for WAAAAAYYYY too much money) for Cedeno, who was comparable for much less? Bradley was a terrible choice, rightly criticized by fans and media immediately. So for every Ramirez-DLee deal, there was at least one bad one and in many cases more. I’m not saying Hendry has been as horrible as many make him out to be, but I would not want him around beyond this year.
He has done way more good than bad. Hind sight is always 20-20.
Agreed.
u cubs fans are so much easier to deal with than met fans.
if Jim Hendry was a GM in NY, he would’ve been ran out by year 4.
Im not one of those people that thinks Hendry should be roasted over an open fire. Youre right. He did get Lee and Aramis for next to nothing. Lilly, Byrd and Dempster have been quality signings. Im not going to give him any credit for Silva cause all that was was trying to get out from under Bradley and everyone pretty much expected Silva to be released. However his comically bad FA deals are what has put this team in its current 3rd place or bust situation.
Soriano’s deal was, is, and always will be horrendous. 8 yrs for 136M AND a full NTC. Yikes. Kosuke’s deal wasnt much better. It was just shorter. 4/48 plus another NTC. Thankfully at least there wasnt a posting fee.
Grabows deal was bad. You dont give a 2 yr 7.5M deal to a reliever with a career ERA over 4.
His extensions have been hit and miss. Zambrano’s was for the most part thought of as a bargain at 5/91 considering Zito’s contract the offseason before, the deals given out in 2008 for guys like Silva and the average salaries given out to guys like Adam Eaton and Jeff Suppan. Plus look at his stats leading up to the extension. I cant say that the Z deal was a bad one at the time. Aramis’ deal was a good one until the injuries the last 2 years.
So taking the good with the bad he hasnt been a bad GM just a GM that really doesnt have a direction. Which is much worse.
Im not one of those people that thinks Hendry should be roasted over an open fire. Youre right. He did get Lee and Aramis for next to nothing. Lilly, Byrd and Dempster have been quality signings. Im not going to give him any credit for Silva cause all that was was trying to get out from under Bradley and everyone pretty much expected Silva to be released. However his comically bad FA deals are what has put this team in its current 3rd place or bust situation.
Soriano’s deal was, is, and always will be horrendous. 8 yrs for 136M AND a full NTC. Yikes. Kosuke’s deal wasnt much better. It was just shorter. 4/48 plus another NTC. Thankfully at least there wasnt a posting fee.
Grabows deal was bad. You dont give a 2 yr 7.5M deal to a reliever with a career ERA over 4.
His extensions have been hit and miss. Zambrano’s was for the most part thought of as a bargain at 5/91 considering Zito’s contract the offseason before, the deals given out in 2008 for guys like Silva and the average salaries given out to guys like Adam Eaton and Jeff Suppan. Plus look at his stats leading up to the extension. I cant say that the Z deal was a bad one at the time. Aramis’ deal was a good one until the injuries the last 2 years.
So taking the good with the bad he hasnt been a bad GM just a GM that really doesnt have a direction. Which is much worse.
I imagine ryan madson will be given some save opportunitys this season to see if he can handle the closers role. With Lidge entering his final year under contract and next years Closeing market it would make sense for the phils to try for a 3yr-4yr deal at a dicount price. Given the market i dont see many teams handing out 3 yr deals to closers after next season and a imagine a few closers will be religated to setup dutie like Soriano this year which could also hurt ryan madsons value.
Madson will only get a chance to close if Lidge is either hurt or needs a day of rest. Charlie Manual lives and dies with Lidge as his closer.
Plus, when given the chance, Madson hasn’t exactly made a case for himself as a closer. He has only converted around 50% of his save chances. That’s flat out not good enough.
And you just made your entire argument up there useless with those words. UNLESS Manuel gives the closing gig to Madson and then Madson pitches lights out the entire time he’s in that position, he won’t be getting anywhere near 20 million. You are obviously a huge Phillys homer. You know, one of those who only opens their mouth, but never with any facts in mind? You have no idea what you’re talking about, it makes me wonder just how old you are and if your dad even knows you’re on the computer.
Madson’s stuff is just straight up sick. I just don’t think he has the head to close.
Ryan Madson is one of the best set-up men in baseball, but teams will look at his numbers as a closer and question his ability to pitch in the ninth inning. It’s just not for everyone. Personally, I think that something akin to what Joaquin Benoit got is a fair deal for Madson, and the Phillies may be best off trying to lock him up before he actually reaches free agency, despite the fact that he’s a Scott Boras client.
The late inning guys in the Phillies’ bullpen (Madson and Lidge) are both probably going to hit free agency, (can’t see the Phils’ picking up Lidge’s option at that rate), so they should try to at least extend Madson, similiar to the way they extend Lidge in the middle of the ’08 season. I think three years, $17 million is fair market value for Madson, considering what relievers from this off-season got.
Looking at next year’s free agent class though, a lot of this year’s closers could be set-up men next year, and the Phillies may be able to nab Madson at a good price. It’ll be interesting to see if the Phillies commit to Brad Lidge, or try and sign a guy like a Heath Bell of Jonathon Papelbon.
Heath Bell of Jonathan Papelbon? that sounds like an old english name to me for some reason.
Hahahaha. Good catch.
I find it very odd that Thome decided to play for the Twins over Texas. Texas has a better shot at winning this year imo, and he was offered more money by the Rangers. He must really like playing Minny.
he will probably get more playing time in Minny than he would have in Texas as TEX already has a primary DH while the twins(pre-thome signing) did not.
Kubel is their primary DH. They didn’t sign him for 5 mil to be a bench bat. Thome is a bench bat/pinch hitter/secondary DH.
Kubel is their primary DH. They didn’t sign him for 5 mil to be a bench bat. Thome is a bench bat/pinch hitter/secondary DH.
he will probably get more playing time in Minny than he would have in Texas as TEX already has a primary DH while the twins(pre-thome signing) did not.
He’s a midwest guy. When the Phillies traded him they wanted to trade him to a market close to home for him. Thats why they traded him to the White Sox.
He’s a midwest guy. When the Phillies traded him they wanted to trade him to a market close to home for him. Thats why they traded him to the White Sox.
Lee Stevens missed more than one season in his mid-20s before resurfacing with Texas and putting up respectable numbers from age 28 on. What happened between age 23 and 28? He barely played in the majors or minors.
By using the guy who is obsessed with Ryan Madson and his WAR credentials, a guy like Craig Breslow should be demanding a 3/20 million type contract. His WAR is right in place with Madson if you take out his injury season. Also, to those who have said Madson doesn’t have any problems off the field, isn’t this the same guy that kicked a door in Atlanta and had to miss 1/3 of the season this year?
It’s interesting to wonder about Carpenter. If he is let go, how much would he fetch in free agency?
Why would they let him go? They would trade him and try to dish out some of his salary. If they relese him, they still owe him money, and they don’t get anything in return. Maybe they could trade him to the Yankees, they wouldtake on most of his salary
If they don’t pick up his option.
Why would they let him go? They would trade him and try to dish out some of his salary. If they relese him, they still owe him money, and they don’t get anything in return. Maybe they could trade him to the Yankees, they wouldtake on most of his salary
I’m probably one of the more old school people on this website (probably more mid-aged school to be precise) and I have absolutely no idea who any of the people mentioned in the introduction to this article are… But there’s a good chance it will help in future bar trivia games, so I shouldn’t complain
Just saw the next post… I take it all back
Money simply isn’t the consideration for the Yankees that it is for other teams.
While Soriano is “overpaid” by the yanks for the role he’ll be used in, frankly they don’t care.
Bottom line, they add a quality reliever.