TODAY, 4:49pm: A Seattle-Tampa deal involving Franklin was close at one point, but the injury to Hellickson threw a wrench into talks, reports Adam Rubin of ESPN.com (Twitter links). That does not necessarily mean that Hellickson was to be included in a deal, Rubin adds.
4:33pm: The Rays are also contemplating possible deal structures to reel in Franklin, reports CBSSports.com's Jon Heyman. A source tells Heyman that Tampa could be a better fit with Seattle than would the Mets, though the possible scenarios under consideration have not been brought to light. As Heyman notes, the two teams have already spent plenty of time looking at each others' players, having already discussed a David Price trade earlier in the offseason.
At first glance, it would seem likely that the Rays would be looking at an acquisition of Franklin primarily as a means of achieving value. The team does not have an immediate need, per se, up the middle, as it possesses options over shortstop Yunel Escobar and second baseman Ben Zobrist for 2015. But with a roster full of versatile players, the Rays certainly have the lineup flexibility to incorporate a player like Franklin. And, of course, the organization probably also has the patienceto keep the 22-year-old in the minors as depth and to maximize his future value. (Franklin has just 126 days of MLB service, making him a possible eventual Super Two, but also meaning that he still comes with five years of MLB control.)
In terms of possible trade targets from Seattle's perspective, the club could probably most stand to add to its rotation. But with the injury to Jeremy Hellickson, Tampa may not feel comfortable dealing from among the candidates for its major league rotation. Of course, since that time, the Rays added Nate Karns in a deal with the Nationals, adding to its depth in that area.
YESTERDAY: After learning Nick Franklin was likely to be traded and speculating on the Mets as apotential fit last week, ESPNNewYork.com's Adam Rubin confirmed with a team source that the Mets do have some interest in Franklin. According to Rubin, the Mets and Mariners discussed Franklin at the Winter Meetings and are likely to do so again in the month of March.
The Mets aren't yet sold on whether or not they think Franklin can handle shortstop on a full-time basis, which they would need to believe in order to trade for him, writes Rubin. He adds that it also remains to be seen whether or not the Mets would pull the trigger on trading the type of pitching prospect Seattle would want in order to part with Franklin (Rubin uses Rafael Montero as an example).
Franklin, who turns 23 on Sunday, was a mainstay on Top 100 prospect rankings around the game from the time of his first-round selection in the 2009 draft up until his Major League debut last season. The switch-hitter cooled after a strong start to his Major League career and ultimately posted a .225/.303/.382 batting line with 12 homers and six steals in 412 plate appearances (he slashed .268/.337/.451 in 169 first-half PAs). However, with the team's signing of Robinson Cano and the presence of Brad Miller at shortstop, Franklin seemingly has no home in the Mariners' infield.
Much has been made of the Mets' weakness at shortstop this offseason (Ruben Tejada is their projected starter). The lack of a proven option at short has led to seemingly endless speculation regarding Stephen Drew, but a Franklin acquisition would likely end the connection between the two sides.
Jeff Todd contributed to this post.
Couldn’t they play him at short for half of a season and move him back to second with a Murohy trade in like June or July?
Why would we trade Murphy, one of our most consistent players?
because he’s blocking Wilmer Flores, who can probably out-produce him right now and has a much higher ceiling.
Mets could trade Davis (teams for whatever reason have shown interest) and can move Murphy to 1B. His UZR/150 is actually higher at 1B (4.7) than at 2B (-7.3)
Murphy’s .733 OPS and wOBA of .320 is simply too low for 1B. As brutal as Ike was last season and as inconsistent as Duda is, they are both likely to surpass those numbers in 2014.
Those numbers would have put Murphy at 23rd in the league. Obviously that is below average, but with 30 teams in the league, Somebody has to rank near the below average mark as well as at the bottom.
Which is why the Mets are hoping Duda or Davis will rebound, so they don’t have to resort to that.
Ike Davis and Lucas Duda both project to hit better than Murphy. That’s a bad idea.
Not sure where you heard that from though it depends on how you define hitting – Avg? OPS? An advanced metric?
Zips projects Murphy to have the best average of the 3 by a landslide, Davis to have a slight edge in OPS ahead of Duda and a little bit ahead of Murphy, Davis & Murphy to have pretty much the same wRC+ and wOBA, but Murphy to have the highest WAR of the 3.
WAR adjusts for position, so throw that one out. In order of Steamer, Oliver, ZiPS and career, Ike is projected 120/105/113 wRC+ with a career 112. Duda is projected at 110, 101, and 113 with a career 115. Murphy’s at 105/103/103 with a career 107. That’s not even considering platoon splits. It’s pretty much impossible to say with a straight face that Murph would be better offensively than Ike or Duda – that hasn’t been the case and isn’t likely to be the case moving forward.
Ike Davis has a lot of potential the problem is he needs a good hitting coach.
What makes you think Flores can out-produce Murphy? Murphy’s OPS against Major League pitching is higher than Flores’ OPS against Minor League pitching (though Flores did excellent last year in the minors)
That’s a flawed argument (especially since it’s not true lol), but it’s close enough .762 to .757.
The thing is Flores was playing in A ball, when most kids his age are in HS. That naturally brought down his numbers, which aren’t that important for prospects anyway.
But if you want to use minor league numbers his OPS of .827 and .887, the past two seasons are much more relevant and given his age and potential, it’s a no brainer.
Fair enough, and my bad about the wrong stat. Their slash lines are very similar (Murphy vs. major league and Flores vs. Minor League that is) and I must have looked at the wrong one as I was seeing very similar AVG/OBP/SLUG.
Still, I wouldn’t call it probable of happening (Flores out-producing Murphy). Still a prospect and many end up busts. As the NY Lotto says, Hey, Ya never know.
Plus Murphy is going into his final year of arbitration which will net him a contract of 7-8 million. Flores makes 500K.
The money saved and the prospects acquired really make it a no-brainer, especially when the Dodgers will be looking to improve on Uribe and probably Guerrero midseason.
Flores can hit but there’s almost no chance he plays 2B in the majors. To say he’s a sloth at 2B is an insult to the sloth.
It is not accurate to compare minor league vs major league stats. Minor league stats are league bound, things such as the location, the fields, etc. skew the results greatly
Again, fair enough, but I wouldn’t say Flores out-producing Murphy is Likely.
Yes but Flores and Marte okay 3B.
Ray’s no need for him with a aquiring Forsyth.
David Wright doesn’t exist in your world, does he?
No, just his avatar apparently.
Of course he does! He’s my favorite player all-time. I just don’t see the appeal to trade Murphy.
Capitalize on a year where a meh defensive second baseman with an average-ish OBP ranked fourth in the league in hits, severely overstating his value? Sell high? We have capable replacements, especially if we get Franklin and move him to 2B halfway through the season as suggested.
O Captain, My Captain….your team’s most consistent player is Your Captain.
I know, I know. I could never forget about David. I just don’t understand why so many people want Murphy traded. He goes out there every single day, works extremely hard and produces. Plus, he’s a gentleman. You want guys like him on your team and in your clubhouse. We have more important holes to fill. No reason to trade Murphy right now.
Before the Granderson signing for the Mets, I actually suggested a Murphy for Gardner trade.
I’d have been all for that, but the Mets and Yankees haven’t been big on trades in recent memory. Not as bad as Red Sox/Yankees but not great.
Last semi-big one I even recall was David Justice for Robin Ventura.
I’m not a fan of trading Murphy, but that would have been a good deal for both clubs, especially if the Mets could have extended Gardner in the same way the Yankees ended up doing.
Why wouldn’t we? Franklin’s better defensively, has a much better offensive floor, and is much cheaper. He’s also a switch hitter. Why pay Murphy $5 million when we can pay Nick Franklin, a 23 year old with a much, much higher offensive ceiling than Murphy $500,000? We’d get a better, younger player, our new leadoff hitter, and save a whole bunch of money.
I thought the Mets were trying to trade Ike Davis not clone him to play second.
huh?
So Seattle would want a pitching prospect in return for Franklin. I hope that’s just speculation and not reality. Pitching prospects are one of the organization’s strengths.
can always use more
Except when your offense has been anemic for the past ten years or so.
just because the offense has been terrible it doesn’t mean that you pass up on an opportunity to continue to get better at your strengths
They already upgraded their offense with Cano, Hart, and Morrison. Zunino, Ackley, Smoak, and Miller all have room for improvement and potential, Saunders is decent, and Seager is really good. After watching Hultzen implode, can you really not like more pitching? They also have an impact bat coming up through the system to displace Smoak in time, anyway.
Oh geez. Smoak is pretty much a bust. Ackley seems headed there. Saunders ain’t far behind. Questions surrounding Hart and Morrison. Miller and Zunino are good prospects, but that’s what they said about Smoak and Ackley. This team hasn’t done squat for a decade, and beyond Seager has shown little ability to actually develop players, so please forgive me if I don’t share your rosy outlook.
i’m sure that if they could trade Franklin for Trout they’d be all over it. but until then they have to explore options to get rid of a guy they don’t need. Franklin’s stock is down on top of the fact that everyone on earth knows he needs to get traded. if all they can get is a top pitching prospect, it wouldn’t be the end of the world.
So just because they don’t need him they should automatically trade him? For someone who might not help the big league club for a few years? A big league club who hasn’t sniffed the playoffs for a decade and has seen it’s attendance cut in half over that time? They need to better their 25 man roster and make a push towards the playoffs this year, or next at the latest. A pitching prospect ain’t gonna help the cause at this point in time.
is that so far fetched? this isn’t like resurrecting someone from the dead. it shouldn’t be of any surprise that he’s in any trade rumor. it’s not the first time and it’s not going to be the last time that there are rumors like this. i’m sure if you’ve got a trade in the works that will make them immediately better, by all means make it happen. stop keeping it to yourself. that’s really selfish actually.
Where, pray tell, are they going to find upgrades? Jack Z has completely bought into this Smoak/Ackley/Miller/Zunino/Saunders/Miller/Franklin wave and seems set to ride it out and hope some improve.
Smoak, Ackley, Saunders, Zunino and just about every other Mariner farm hand has been rushed because the major league team has no talent. These kids need a little more time and better management. Let’s see what HoJo and McClendon can do with them before we stick permanent labels on them.
If I was Seattle I would just hold on to Franklin unless they were blown away in a deal. He may not be an all star but he showed a lot of promise on a bad team last year. He is one of those pesky dirt dog types. And why hand the job over to Miller. I know they are very similar & Miller plays a better short but why deal him? He is 23 under control for plenty of years before they have to make a decision. For a small guy he has some pop in his bat. As a Red Sox fan I would love for them to take Franklin & use him as a super utility or let him stay a while longer in the minors like the Rays can.
At least wait a month or two into the season and see where the Mariners are at. Find a need then fill it by trading Franklin. Smart moves don’t need to happen right away.
Who knows (knock on wood) Brad miller could struggle then Nick gets his shot.
Can you ever really have enough pitching?
I believe there’s a saying about that. It goes “You can never have enough pitching”, if I recall correctly.
Seattle should definitely go after Lagares instead.
They’d better get a veteran for the rotation and look what their own pitching prospects can do, rather then bringing in some more unproven arms
I actually might be okay with this, as a Mets fan. Lagares is probably going to regress as players cease challenging his arm.. a lot of his defense was dependent on placement and positioning to make up for a weak arm. If they aren’t challenging him, that’ll detract from his value, since if he’s not making up for the balls over his head by gunning down runners, his range will be affected by new positioning. He might still be an excellent defender, but if he adjusts, it’s a new formula for future defensive success, and not one guaranteed to work. I wouldn’t mind them selling high for the player with the superior ceiling.
Balls over his head? Weak arm? Are we talking about the same player?
He plays shallow as heck. If he’s not gunning down runners because they’re not challenging him, he’s playing shallow- and thus giving up those deep fly ball doubles and triples to dead center and the deep gaps- for nothing. He does not have a “strong” arm. He has an accurate one, and he plays shallow enough to overcome the lack of strength in it. I see him as a similar defender to Beltran, honestly. We’ll see how he adjusts when runners don’t challenge him.
Except he doesn’t give up those deep fly ball doubles and triples to dead center and deep gaps. He runs them down. That’s why he can play so shallow. He’s actually the best I’ve ever seen going back on the ball, which is why we don’t really understand where you’re coming from. I agree his arm isn’t that strong, but he’s not letting guys hit the ball over his head, period.
Maybe it’s just selective memory then. I remember reading an article that showed his batted ball zone profile and supported my anecdotal opinion, but I was more basing it off having been at games and seeing him get burned going backward on doubles because he was so shallow. We’ll see if his shallow positioning combined with fewer runners going affects his defensive value. If his defense regresses, he’s not that good. He’d be basically an average ballplayer, which I think Franklin has as a floor going forward. I’m also just optimistic on Franklin, I suppose.
Old Beltran or young Beltran? Before he started to break down after 2008, he was a pretty fine CF. After that, he was still decent enough to be more valuable there than the corners for a couple years.
That said, I can’t see Seattle having much interest in Lagares unless he has something of a decent offensive profile as well. And since he doesn’t, they’re not going to.
I wonder if the M’s would have interest in Dillon Gee. Gee will eventually be pushed out with Montero and Syndergaard on their way. There’s no way, he’s there past this season. With, 2 more years of control after this, he’s definitely appealing.
The M’s could use a #3/4 SP to go with Felix, Iwakuma and Walker and Gee would be a solid fit for them, I think. Considering Franklin is pretty much blocked and the Mets need a SS and M’s need pitching, I think it’s a win-win for both sides.
I don’t know that Gee would be enough. Would he? What else might the Mets have to add?
I would think a controllable SP with a career ERA under 4.00 would be enough for Franklin, considering he’s got nowhere to play there.
If Sandy likes Franklin and the dude can definitely play SS, I’d do that in a heartbeat if I was the Mets — especially since that’d mean keeping Montero and Mejia. Not to mention they have Dice-K and Lannan for even more depth. And Thor on the way. And Harvey back next year.
Even if he can’t play SS, he could slot in as the long-term solution at 2B. His long-term value is greater than Murphy’s.
Just because he has nowhere to play doesn’t mean the M’s have to get rid of him. He can sit in AAA until there’s an injury or a better trade comes along. The M’s have plenty of #3/4s, like Baker, Ramirez, and maybe Maurer if he regains his command, like he did at the end of last season.
I wouldn’t consider any of those players you mentioned to be in the same class as Gee who threw for 200 IP with a 3.62 ERA last year. Ramirez had a 5.00 ERA and Maurer over 6.00. As for Baker, he’s been hurt the last two years.
I’m clearly not a M’s fan, but I think Gee instantly becomes their #3 SP, until of course Walker establishes himself.
Sure, the M’s can easily keep Franklin in AAA and might be able to get a better deal elsewhere, but I think it’s a very strong return for someone who really has no chance to start for them unless some gets hurt.
Ramirez strained his muscles lifting weights last spring and it wrecked his season. His upside is huge. He has a good fastball and one one the best changes in the game to go with typically good control. He’s my pick for the M’s breakout player of the year if he gets a chance and cracks the rotation.
Maurer has good stuff and ,before last season, had good control in the minors. He seemed to find it again at the end of last season. A bunch of experts even thought he would be in the running for rookie of the year, if that means anything, before he forgot how to pitch and started serving meatballs.
I’m not as worried about the M’s rotation as most. They have a lot of guys with upside and trading one of them for a pitcher they don’t really need isn’t very smart. If the M’s want to trade Franklin for a pitcher, they should put him in a package for a monster like Price, or something.
Good points and nobody in this thread has even mentioned Paxton, who could possibly end up in the rotation before Walker, or at the least by the end of May.
The Mariners should have a rotation of Felix, Iwakuma, Paxton, Walker and 1 other by the AS break at the latest. They don’t need to AS player as the number 5 and Ramirez would be fine here after enduring Bonderman, Bazooka Joe, etc.. That they went through last season.
The rotation is ok without giving away the best trade chip they have for something journeyman like that they already have either better than, or at least equal to.
Paxton’s filthy. Just filthy. If he stays healthy, he could be Price-good.
The FanGraphs hybrid projections forecast 2014 WAR of 0.9 for Dillon Gee, 1.7 for Taijuan Walker, 1.3 for Erasmo Ramirez and 1.0 for James Paxton. Gee has a 2014 salary of $3.63 million while those three Mariner pitchers will each earn the league minimum.
I have to disagree on Gee still being enough for Franklin, though. Looking at comparable 1-for-1 deals in the recent past, the closest I can find was the Shields-Myers trade last season.
Franklin as a 2B hit just as well as well Myers did in AAA with a much, much, MUCH better BB/K ratio. He doesn’t have quite the same scouting projection because of body type, but you can’t ignore Franklin’s 147 wRC+ and 3:2 BB/K compared to Myers’ 142 and 1:2.5 equivalents. Then Shields was and had been better than Gee in almost every measure with the same amount of control left.
People harp on the Royals and assert how it was bad to give up Myers for Shields. Since there are a lot of ways Franklin matches up favorably to Myers before last season and Shields was clearly more valuable than Gee, I don’t see how Gee-for-Franklin straight up is an even trade.
Sounds pretty good to me.
Lagares for Franklin? M’s get a right handed CF and Mets get a SS?
Does that not create another hole for the Mets? I mean, in some ways the Mets have 2 question marks in the OF right now, given Lagares largely unproven with the bat, and Chris Young….well, he hit .200 last year.
They’ve got Puello and Den Dekker. Puello’s got higher offensive ceiling than Lagares and Den Dekker’s nearly as good defensively. Bringing in Franklin could also free up a Murphy to the Dodgers trade for Scott Van Slyke, a guy I would love to see on the Mets. He’s basically Jayson Werth before the break out – their ages and career stats are almost identical. A Granderson/Young&Den Dekker/Granderson outfield would strike out a bunch but would have a pretty respectable combination of power, speed, and defense. It would also allow the Mets to keep their pitching prospects.
The Mets are oddly optimistic on Eric Young Jr. I’ve even heard talk Lagares could potentially begin 2014 in the minors, which would be horrendous. If you slide EY to left, Grandy to right or vice a versa, with Young in CF, getting Franklin for SS to upgrade over Tejada might seem worth it. That upgrade is worth more than the downgrade from Lagares to EY
Eric Young is a bench player. I’ll will be super pissed off if the Mets put Lagares in AAA…and if Mejia isn’t in the rotation.
I’m not sure of the Mets’ depth on center fielders, but standing up defensively with the best in the game last year would probably not be someone I would trade. Every team needs solid defense up the middle.
Yeah, fills one hole, creates another, basically — is what I was trying to say with a previous comment..not sure why my comments on this site often don’t show up/”are awaiting moderation”..I’m not using racist antagonistic prejudice hateful foul language or anything lol.
The Mets have Den Dekker (considered to have GG defense, power from the left side) and Puello (put up better numbers than Gregory Polanco in AA last year) in the system. Puello’s projected to hit better than Lagares while still having enough range to play center whereas Den Dekker projects to have nearly the same level of defense as Lagares while hitting for more power. It’s not like the Mets are bereft at CF. They really are at the middle infield positions, though.
Puello was also suspended for PEDs so who know what we’ve got there, and Den Dekker isn’t the fielder Lagares is. Two get the best of both worlds with their advantages, you also need two roster spots instead of one.
I like Lagares, don’t get me wrong. I loved watching him play. He was a billion times more fun to watch than Cowgill and Ankiel. The point though is that we have a couple of needs and Franklin could fill those needs. We’ll have to trade someone of value to get someone of value, and the other name I’m hearing thrown about is Montero. PEDs or not, Puello still projects as having the range for CF, better offense than Lagares, speed on the bases, and a cannon arm. Den Dekker has always improved at his 2nd shot at every level he has ever played and his power’s no joke. He may not be as good a fielder as Lagares but he’s still considered an “immediate Gold Glove candidate”, so it’s not much of a drop-off.
I’d like to see Franklin in a Mets’ uniform. He’d be a better leadoff hitter than EYJ, he’d be a better defender and at least as good on offense as Daniel Murphy moving forward (and with team control), and he’d be much better offensively than Ruben Tejada. He would improve our team where it needs to be improved, and I don’t see the dropoff from Lagares to a Young/Den Dekker platoon as being all that much.
Long story short, I like Lagares but you need to convince the Mariners that it’s a trade worth making. At the same time, Sandy with his Jedi mind tricks may make something happen, a la Josh Thole and Mike Nickeas as the two “prospects” included in the Dickey trade.
It’s going to be one of Montero or Syndergaard for Franklin. Mets have a huge surplus and wouldn’t even notice one of them is missing, just to fill a gapping hole at SS.
Funny@Syndergaard for Franklin. Look at Sandy’s history of trades. He doesn’t get fleeced, period. Syndergaard’s a touch behind Taijuan Walker in the prospect rankings, and you’d be laughing pretty hard if I were to propose Taijuan Walker for a Nick Franklin equivalent. Realistically speaking, Montero would be a good match although Alderson can probably get it done for less.
Keep in mind that Alderson traded Dickey/Thole/Nickeas for D’Arnaud/Syndergaard/Becerra, Byrd/Buck for Herrera/Black, and Beltrán for Wheeler.
Are you joking? Syndergaard for Franklin? If there’s one thing Sandy has been great at since he’s been the Mets’ GM, it’s trading. He’s not trading one of the top prospects in all of baseball for Nick Franklin. I get Franklin’s potential and upside, but that trade would be insanity.
In its recent Top 100 prospect list, Baseball America ranked 23-year-old Rafael Montero 68th. Nick Franklin, who is younger than Montero, was ranked No. 53 two years ago and No. 79 a year ago. Oliver gives Franklin a projected five-year WAR of 17.5 for Franklin and 9.6 for Montero (who is a less-advanced version of 23-year-old Seattle righthander Erasmo Ramirez, who has a projected five-year WAR of 10.9).
I don’t know what that has to do with Syndergaard, but if you’re trying to say that Franklin-Montero is a good match, I agree. Syndergaard, however, is far more valuable than Franklin, both in general and to the Mets in particular.
Also, WAR predictions for pitching prospects, especially five year projections for a guy who’s only pitched 16 games above AA, are pretty much useless, imo.
Montero for Franklin is a trade that Zduriencik makes 10 times out of 10, especially with Hultzen’s major shoulder injury, Paxton’s injury history, and Walker’s shoulder stiffness.
We should reminds ourselves that recent media reports were that the Mariners could make infielders available and that the Mets were interested in Nick Franklin, not that the Mets have pitchers available and that the Mariners were interested in Rafael Montero.
Speculation is that the Mets have a specific need while the Mariners can always stash the 22-year-old Franklin at Triple A to extend team control.
If/when Sandy calls Zduriencik, only one of those men will have the upper hand. That man will not be Big Z.
I agree that Sandy Alderson, not Jack Zduriencik, would be making the first call.
Syndergaard for Franklin is about as likely as the Mariners trading Taijuan Walker for Didi Gregorius. In no world does that trade happen. Syndergaard is ranked a bit behind Walker, but is in that same elite group with Archie Bradley and Jonathan Gray. It’s a joke trade proposal, period.
Yeah and I always thought Chris Young was a good defensive CF
I guess Chris Young could be their CF and a combination of Lucas Duda, Nieuwenhuis, den Dekker, and EYJ could be in right.
This seems like the more likely fit, to me. Wouldn’t Montero be a candidate to pitch for the Mets this year? Doesn’t seem like he’d be a guy they would want to deal.
If Seattle is in Win now mode with Cano…we need MLB ready SP, not someone to stash away in the minors. And especially not a #4-5 potential SP.
One of Montero OR Syndergaard. Franklin projects to blow both of them away in WAR over the next 5 years!
There’s pretty much 0 chance the Mets trade Syndergaard fr Franklin, I’ll tell you that now.
And there’s little chance the Mariners will trade Nick Franklin, with a projected five-year WAR of 17.5, for Noah Syndergaard, with a projected five-year WAR of 5.6.
The Mets and Mariners probably don’t match up well in a trade involving Nick Franklin.
It’s tougher to project Thor because he hasn’t played in the majors yet, but the odds of him providing that little over the next five years is extremely slim unless he just completely flops.
WAR projections are much harder to do for pitchers than for hitters. Also, if you think the M’s wouldn’t accept Syndergaard for Franklin, you’re seriously overvaluing Franklin. According to the MLB site, Syndergaard is the #11 prospect in the league; according to Baseball America, he’s #16. Franklin never approached those levels (#47 and 53, respectively).
And a 5.6 WAR over five years is around 1.1 per season. Wheeler had 1.1 in half a season in 2013 and everyone in the Mets organization is saying Syndergaard is even better.
Franklin for either one of Montero and Syndergaard preferably Syndergaard. Franklins 5 year WAR is even higher than Syndergaard’s. There is NO reason why Seattle has to settle less than either Montero and Syndergaard!!!
The reasons Seattle would settle for less than Syndergaard are: Seattle has an infield surplus (as detailed in the article), and the Mets would never even consider offering him.
Yeah, and we’ll send you Tejada for Taijuan Walker. It’s funny reading way-off-base trade proposals. Regarding “Franklin’s 5 year WAR”, I don’t even know where to begin. You’re comparing a guy who hit below average offensively in his first season to a guy who has never thrown a pitch in the Majors, while projecting both 5 years into the future.
The Mariners will likely trade Franklin for a guy like DeGrom or Montero. For Syndergaard, they’d have to do a package of Franklin/Gohara/Marlette/Taylor or something along those lines for Sandy to accept.
Seattle doesn’t need Lagares bat in our lineup. That is the problem with our OF offense already. So his D is a little better than Saunders in CF. It doesn’t justify sending Franklin packing!
i am NOT giving up Lagares.
Would not trade montero for franklin no way im trading my #3 overall prospect for a guy that has not proven he can handle playing SS. Give Wilmer a shot he looks great lost like 13 lbs during the off season.
I’m not saying I would do it, but this comment made me laugh.
“No way I’m trading my overall #3 prospect for a guy who was the Mariners #3 overall prospect not too long ago, who has not proven he can handle playing SS. Let’s give Wilmer, the guy who was moved off SS because he has not proven he can handle playing SS, a chance because he lost some weight.”
Franklin could lead off while allowing us to trade Murphy to the Dodgers for Van Slyke +. The Dodgers are team that will likely be starting Justin Turner at 2B, for crying out loud. Another option for us would be to trade Lagares+ for Franklin since the Ms could use a righty CF.
In 2013 Montero and Franklin were ranked on MLB and Baseball Prospectus within 5 slots or so. That is about as even of a Prospect trade as they come. Interestingly, Franklin’s projected 5 year WAR far surpasses both Montero and Syndergaard
Dillon Gee for Franklin. He’s going to hit his prime soon, is under team control for four years, and when Syndergaard and Montero come up, will likely be the odd man out.
He isn’t much better than the pitchers the M’s already have. The M’s would be smart to trade Franklin for something that can actually make the club better, like a real OF who can push Hart or Ackley out.
Thats how I feel too
So how about Juan Lagares, the best (or 2nd best) defensive CF in the NL last year? He’s also a righty, to boot.
Yes Lagares and Gee would get it done. Only thing is the Mets would most certainly demand another piece in return with Franklin.
Pathetic scrubs for one of Seattle’s top prospects under club control for the next 6 years. Don’t think so!
We have enough of those types.
Excuse me Dillon Gee is a scrub? Next time look at the stats before typing something like that. Dillon Gee has already had SUCCESS on the Major League Level for several years something that gives him immediate value over Nick Franklin and his POTENTIAL aka he hasn’t done it at the Major League level.
Who said Lagares AND Gee? Gee alone would be close. Lagares and Gee would require something like Franklin/Taylor/Marlette since Sandy drives a hard bargain. That wouldn’t be a trade worth making for the Mariners.
Lagares and Gee would require something like a Franklin/Gohara/Marlette/Taylor package for Sandy to agree. He doesn’t make trades where he doesn’t perceptibly come out on top. I’m absolutely not saying it would be a trade worth making for the Mariners, but Sandy’s got the RA trade, the Buck/Byrd trade, and the Beltrán trade under his belt.
Franklin has the talent and drive to be an All*Star. Probably not a perennial one, but a solid team leader who makes the squad a few times. Many M’s fans wish there was a way to keep him around, whether as a utility guy or switching him the the OF.
I don’t see us moving him for a #4 SP like Gee, or an all glove/no bat CF like Lagares. Maybe for both, which makes me sad because it’s buying bulk, but fills holes nonetheless.
Ideally Franklin would fetch the M’s another top prospect, or be a central piece to land a big fish like Price or Shark. I don’t know if Montero is that guy. I think the M’s could do better. Maybe Montero and Lagares? I’d hold out for something better. There’s no real rush.
Franklin in an intriguing super-utility option. I’d like to see the Cardinals check in on him.
If the Cards got Franklin, he would be an All-Star in 2 years. All the birds do is develop talent.
Jon Jay for Franklin?
What about Franklin and Ackley/Saunders and maybe a young high upside guy in A ball for Montero and Lagares
Ms probably dont do that
I don’t do that unless the A ball guy has any value. I prefer Montero and Lagares to Franklin and Ackley/Saunders..
I don’t like Ackley, so I’d do that.
Nick Franklin for Vic Black and Cesar Puello???
I’d rather switch out Lagares for Puello. He has more trade value right now but has a lower ceiling moving forward. Higher floor, for sure, but definitely has a lower ceiling.
Why does everyone ignore Puello’s PED troubles in the minors? Until I see something from him in 2014, he’s a wild card.
I’m certainly not ignoring them, but PEDs don’t make bad players incredible. It’s just not how they work. Puello has been a highly-rated prospect for a very long time now, and has always had a cannon arm, speed on the bases, and a projectable bat.
PEDs or not, he projects as a better hitter and baserunner than Lagares. Obviously next year will go a long way to show us what Puello’s about, but you’re going way too far in the other direction by assuming that just because he took PEDs that he’ll never be a Major Leaguer.
Nooo the Jays need him, stahhp it Mets, you guys have Daniel Murphy, now sign Drew and you’re set
Naaaah – it would be better to sign Drew, trade for Franklin, and trade Murph to the Dodgers for Van Slyke+. We could platoon Tejada and Drew at SS, have Franklin play erryday at 2B while leading off, and Van Slyke would take over as one of our starting corner outfielders.
I would guess Drew/Tejada would lead off instead in that scenario. I also highly doubt Drew comes here unless promised the everyday role. He’d only come here with the chance to re-hit the open market soon, and will need to play every day to keep his value high.
Haha@Drew. Should have just taken the QO.
How bout you guys trade for Franklin then just send us Murph for ravaging us in the Dickey trade?
I was kinda hoping the Jays would go into sell mode so we could send Franklin + to pry Bautista from you…
PLEASE Sandy. I’d be willing to trade any pitching prospect not named Montero or Syndergaard. Give them Walters or deGrom or Leathersich or Matz or something. we have tons of organizational pitching depth. get us our shortstop.
Dude, I’d be 100% okay with them sending Montero, too. Heck, we should send ’em Montero and Cessa and see if they bite on Franklin + Chris Taylor. There’s a Mariners’ fan punching me in his mind for saying that.
The trick is finding a trade that benefits both teams.
Nearly all the names bandied around are young players with at least five years of team control. Therefore, the Oliver five-year projections for each team’s relevant players could be illuminating:
New York Mets: Matt Harvey 16.3, Juan Lagares 14.2, Rafael Montero 9.6, Cesar Puello 9.5, Zack Wheeler 5.9, Noah Syndergaard 5.6, Jon Niese 5.4, Dillon Gee 3.3, Vic Black 0.4.
Seattle Mariners: Brad Miller 19.2, Nick Franklin 17.5, Erasmo Ramirez 10.9, James Paxton 8.5, Taijuan Walker 7.4, Brandon Maurer 5.7, Blake Beavan 2.8.
In some respects Rafael Montero is a clone of the more advanced but similar-aged Erasmo Ramirez. Compare these numbers, including minor league stats:
RM 6-0, 170, DOB 10-17-90, 348.2 IP, 2.51 ERA, 1.02 WHIP, 1.7 BB/9, 8.4 K/9
ER 5-11, 200, DOB 5-2-90, 586.2 IP, 3.16 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, 1.6 BB/9. 7.2 K/9
Ramirez, who generally pitched in hitter-friendlier leagues at more advanced levels than Montero, has a projected five-year WAR of 10.9 while Montero has a projected five-year WAR of 9.6.
There is nothing infalliable about the Oliver projections, or any other projections, but I suspect Seattle has yet to trade Franklin because of the Mariners’ high demands based on these or similar statistics.
You keep hearing Lagares & some of the pitchers but what about Eric Young? Still only 28 & I’m sure the Mets don’t consider him a big part of their future. He could slot into the OF in Seattle & give them a pretty decent lead off hitter as well.
The whole reason the Mets would trade FOR Nick Franklin is that he’s much better than EYJ. He plays similar defense at 2B while having a much better offensive game.
Isn’t Eric Young the starting LF for the Mets? A SS (Franklin) for a LF Young) would be the idea. 40+ SB’s would be a nice addition a top the M’s.
The last time he had 40 SB was 14 years ago.
Eric Young Jr. stole 46 bases last year, but the Mariners won’t trade six years of a 22-year-old infielder with a projected five-year WAR of 17.5 for three years of a 28-year-old outfielder with a projected three-year WAR of 3.0.
46 in 2013
Or, you know, last year. You’re looking at his father’s stats (unless that was the joke).
If EYJ is in the starting lineup on Opening Day, the Sandy came up short this off-season. He’s a great bench player but shouldn’t be starting on a properly constructed team.
I hope not.
Grandy, Chris Young, Lagares. That’s three.
Jack please… just keep Franklin. Move him down to AAA – he’s got the options, and turn him into a super utility player. When Willie loses too much, bring back little Nicky and he’s playing every day.
This seems like a bad fit for the Mets. Franklin is not a major league SS. He can probably fake it but at that point isn’t any better than what they have. Dude had 0.4 fWAR last year and you’re going to trade something significant so he can play at his second best position in NYC? Mets would be better off calling the Dbacks, and MUCH better off just signing Drew already.
You don’t trade Franklin for just another prospect, especially when that is already our strength. You either keep him at AAA another year, or you trade him (package) for a good ML CF (like a Gardner, Bourne, etc – not that they are available…that’s just the type you’re looking for). If the trade isn’t there, send him to AAA – we have the option, use it.
This is sandy trying to make Boras blink.
The Mariners’ best trade partner is someone who gives them a prospect that the Rays/Dodgers covet (for Price and Kemp respectively) or someone who can take on Smoak and give us a RF back. Gee would be no where near our price. I’m not saying he’s a terrible player, but we have enough guys like him right now with Walker, Paxton, Ramirez, etc. vying for time. Don’t forget about Hultzen as well. Only pitcher we “need” in the rotation is someone to take even more pressure off the King. M’s bigger needs are reliever and a power hitter in the outfield.
I would love to see mets trade Lagares for Franklin. Then trade Murphy in a deal for Ethier or Kemp. EY starts season at 2B if Flores isn’t ready.
There’s no way LA sells that low on Kemp. If you meant Murphy+ then I apologize.
Didn’t they consider giving Kemp a part time role?
I would imagine all three non-Puig OFers split the remaining PA amongst themselves, with Kemp, Ethier, Crawford in PA order, like 500, 450, 350 or so. If you assume 2100 PA spread out across the four outfielders, plus something for Scott Van Slyke (like 150 PA?) So if that’s what you mean by part-time, then I guess. Regardless, Kemp still has the talent to be a starter, health-permitting. He’s only about thirty months removed from finishing up one of the greatest seasons of the 2000s not by Bonds, Pujols, or Trout…
Nick Franklin is a great option.
Rays make sense to me but why the Mets? If he could play SS full time Seattle would hang on to him
Different teams have different opinions on a player’s ability to handle a position and, you know, Seattle has an incumbent, young, cost-controller shortstop who can definitively play the position, in Brad Miller.
“possible deal structures to real in Franklin”
Real-ly? Get reel, Steve Adams. Today, Nick Franklin is a Mariner and they’re talkin’ with the Rays, so the metaphor has to do with fishin’.
yeah nice malapropism and missed oppo there
I botched it, not Steve.
Thanks for the fix, Jeff. More importantly, it’s hard to believe that the M’s are planning to stand pat with a trade chip as good a Nick Franklin, no place for him to play, and glaring need for a proven LH pitcher in the rotation, and a proven Center Fielder.
Is a proven LH starting pitcher or proven outfielder available?
key word proven.
We need someone who can help us now. If they can not, then sending Franklin down to AAA to prove he can play SS and still hit, will only increase his trade value. He has improved at each level that he has repeated, why should we trade him if people think he is only a .225 hitter in MLB?
Right now is a bad time to trade Franklin because after his injury last year he hit so poorly. Other teams will not offer a lot because they think we must move him. We don’t need to.
Thanks for the fix, Jeff. More importantly, it’s hard to believe that the M’s are planning to stand pat with a trade chip as good a Nick Franklin, no place for him to play, and glaring need for a proven LH pitcher in the rotation, and a proven Center Fielder.
It’s a very minor correction, but shouldn’t the ‘real’ in the Rays update part of this be ‘reel’..?
When you have to re-read the sentence three times, it’s a low minor league sentence.
Nick Franklin 2B/SS/6years, Tijuan Walker RHP/6years, Abe Almonte CF/6years
for Dave Price RHP/2years plus Desmond Jennings CF/4years
Personally, I would only want to give up that kind of young talent to get Price if he was the missing piece to them contending this year. Not really debating the “fair value” or anything, it is just to sacrifice longer term control over top talent, the window needs to be a lot smaller. If I were a DET or LAD and getting Price would put me in nearly every WS conversation, I do that deal. That isn’t the case for Seattle, I would rather keep building.
This is interesting. This depends on what Almonte is supposed to be (I don’t know much about him. Walker/Franklin is too little in my view for Price AND Desmond.
Seattle isnt trading Walker
If they get Jennings too, they may consider it. They’d need a Price extension window, though.
yeah and price already said he wouldn’t do a extension with Seattle so there is no way Seattle would trade walker for that in my opinion
well if Price outright refuses to sign an extension before even being traded, then the Rays have a heck of a lot less leverage.
And how often do we actually see top players, prior to free agency, offer extensions to ANY teams. Some M’s fans took this as a diss by Price earlier, but who can blame him for taking a page out of the Scott Boras F.A. negotiating manual.
The M’s were trading Walker/Franklin/Furbush last off season with the D-Backs for Justin Upton before the right fielder vetoes the transaction. That said, there would need to be more than two years of Price to justify the kind of trade that was rumored earlier this year between the M’s and Rays (Walker AND Franklin for Price). That deal won’t happen because the M’s aren’t that close to contending and it would be too lopsided (12 years of player control for just two). I’m not sure on Jennings, but the M’s would need more back than just Price. More decent pieces on both sides. (Abe Almonte is an up-and-comer, a switch hitter with excellent OF speed).
Considering Tampa was asking for Walker and Paxton or Zunino earlier in the offseason I doubt they give up Price and Jennings for less.
Not to disagree with your point that Price/Jennings for Franklin/Walker is too much, but isn’t this how a market works? Tampa makes high demands. They realize they can’t get these demands. Seattle doesn’t budge. Tampa lowers said demands?
Thats how the M’s want it to work but Tampa looks to be a contender in 2014, they wont get rid of Price/Jennings unless it will improve the MLB club in late 2014 early 2015.
Jennings is pre-arb eligible so I’d expect Tampa to hold on to him for a couple more seasons and Price will fetch just as good, if not a better, return at the trade deadline. There just no good reason for Tampa to lower its asking price now.
Markets are ever-changing. Just because Tampa may have potentially overrated Price back then doesn’t mean they haven’t since realized that Price’s true trade value is lower than they previously thought. Might that mean keeping him? Perhaps. But a lower value trade proposal right now shouldn’t be discarded; it may mean Tampa just screwed up by not settling in between their earlier demands and this proposed deal.
Tampa didn’t mess anything up by keeping a proven ace on contending team.
The Rays didn’t mess anything up by keeping a proven ace on a contending team.
If their eventual trade return is far less, then you could make the argument they messed up for the future. Especially if Price doesn’t lead them anywhere in 2014. It’s a hindsight viewpoint, but the bottom line is that your logic was flawed.
Since I left my crystal ball at home maybe you can enlighten me as to what “trade return” Tampa has missed out on so far.
Where did I mention a definite trade return they’ve missed out on? Thanks for the attitude, by the way. Crystal ball comment showed real maturity.
Now that it appears Mets are seriously involved, maybe TB was posturing and really wanted Franklin all along. Now they could be on the verge of losing him.
We’re going to need some Toronto-Franklin rumors here or there’s going to be a mutiny in Canada.
I was reading hoping Toronto would decide to sell so we could send you Franklin + for Bautista. Wouldn’t mind having Reyes or Morrow either…
We’re going to need some Toronto-Franklin rumors here or there’s going to be a mutiny in Canada.
Who wants to fleece the M’s this time????
From what i am hearing the M’s want Montero or synderguard. I’d be willing to give up Montero but not Synderguard. I think Montero is going to be a reliever in the big leagues. He reminds me a lot of Felix Rodriguez and Felix was dominant.
Sandy should be keeping Thor no matter what, unless it’s for someone like Price, which probably won’t happen. I’m a huge fan of Syndergaard.
Nick Franklin has a lot of upside. Also he is a better option than Drew in regards to his age and you can see what your getting.
Money aside, and for the very near future? Debatable. Drew is a fine player, a pretty solidly above average player. Not a star, but still good. Franklin just slashed something like .225/.300/.380 (don’t remember exact slash) and slumped off big time in the second half. also, as mentioned numerous times, he is not a guarantee to play shortstop regularly with any reliability. He is not worth Syndergaard in any universe.
If the Rockies called you and said will give you troy for Synderguard, Lagares, Montero and Gee would you do it.
Not only would i do it in a hart beat. But i would drive them to the Airport express.
Tough question- not really sure. I’m not as high as others on Lagares, but that’s still three cost controlled legitimate talents, plus Gee who’s a decent innings-eater much in Bronson Arroyo’s mold. Tulowitzki is a star though, so I’d consider it. Troy Tulowitzki and Nick Franklin are not the same, though, so I don’t know what the point is.
I don’t think I would, giving up all 3 pitchers is A LOT
That’s what the Mariners should be going after then! A future reliever for a 20hr potential hitting 23 year old SS/2B. Good deal for Seattle!
Rays are looking to contend this year. They don’t have a back up every
day CF starter. Platooning DeJesus/Guyer would be ridiculous. And the
Rays aren’t going to give up Price with how much they spent this off
season. Give up the spot to Moore and have two rookies, or Bedard in the starting rotation? Not going to happen.
And the Rays have no spots open for him on the roster. Forsythe, Guyer, S-Rod and Zobrist all block him. And they would end up probably giving up a starter like Montgomery or someone of his caliber. A raw tool, type of player. But, again, the Rays have no use for him.
I thought the rays were happy with hak ju lee as the shortstop for the future? If so, franklin would have no spot on the rays either with escobar locked in for this year and lee likely to debut this year as well.
Rays would flip someone. This would be a value move … so if they like Franklin they trade Zobrist, or just move Franklin along for something else. They’re looking for the M’s to accept less than face value for Franklin just to get something done. It being public now probably hurts their ability to do so.
I don’t think they’d be looking to acquire him as a SS. Seems he’d likely be headed to AAA but I have no idea.
Franklin, Paxton and A ball high upside player for Price would be ideal for the mariners cause walker is staying put. Plus rays get tons of team control
Rays don’t touch that. This is not about Price, I’ll guarantee you that.
I cant see what the mariners want from the rays then besides Jennings but cant see getting him in a package
Another pitcher. Someone like Montgomery or equivalent.
The M’s seem to be just as high on Paxton as they are Walker.
Not an expert but I live in Seattle and watched Franklin develop. Answers: Can he play SS ? NO Is he a solid ML 2B defensively? YES Can he hit ML pitching? NO he’s probably a utility player at best. Anyone who trades for him will be getting fleeced
Bunk. The 23 year old will be a fine second baseman AND hitter in the bigs. SS maybe not.
Don’t be so sure. He accumulated all of 0.4 fWAR last year and really stunk it up in the second half once the league adjusted to him. He could be a real bust. A couple projection systems have him as replacement level.
So young players either come up and are immediately acclimated or they’re busts?
Mike trout hit 220 in his first 130 ABs….just saying.
He got hurt and played hurt
You got anything to support that or is that just your opinion.
The irony is that your post offered opinions but no facts to support your opinions.
I welcome all opinions but am particularly fond of opinons supported by at least some facts.
Perhaps the trade would have Colome or Romero straight up for Franklin?
Think its possible it was around these two guys. Hellickson going down made those two less expendable
Yep. Could also add Odorizzi to that mix as well.
For what it’s worth, Nick Franklin played shortstop and stroked a two-run opposite-field homerun hitting from the right side in today’s intrasquad game. 😉
I think the Mets have been too involved to not be in this thing. It’s smelling more like a 3-team trade:
1. Mets = Franklin
2. Rays = Montero, Saunders, + more Seattle Minor leaguers
3. Seattle = Price & Lagares
That could be very doable for all 3 treams. Eric Young is beating Lagares out in the OF for a spot, and Rays get a AAA top SP prospect in Montero ready for MLB with 6 years of club control.
I think with the Mets as players, this could get interesting as a 3-team trade with all 3 teams walking away happy.
Rays don’t touch that unless Syndergaard, Walker or Paxton is included I’d say.
No way TB is going to get a Syndergaard or Walker or Paxton in a deal for Only 2 years of Price. No Way!
Never said they would, just that they wouldn’t do the deal without one of them in it, therefore, I don’t think a deal is gonna go down like that. Price is the Rays’ ace, and so at least this season they’re not gonna give him unless they get what they want out of it.
I don’t see Seattle trading Saunders, Ackley is more likely.
If I were the M’s, I would just cut the Rays out of that deal and trade Franklin for Lagares and Montero and keep Saunders and the rest.
send Ike to Oakland. Unlike the Mets, they have a good coaching staff that could actually maximize his potential.
TB is getting involved, because they are going to attempt to land long club controlled years out of some SP for Price. They couldn’t land Walker or Paxton, so maybe if they can sneak in on a 3-way with Mets/Seattle TB will attempt to land either Montero OR Syndergaard.
I think Seattle should stick with and focus on getting the best deal they can from the Mets and if Seattle could put together a seriously strong package for Syndergaard & Legares I say go for that THEN sign Morales (sending Smoak to Pitts) and the 2014 would be seriously solid all around!
If anything with TB back involved it could drive up Franklin’s price with the Mets “if” Mets seriously want Franklin.
I think a fare trade with Mets is Montero/Legares for Franklin, but to land Syndergaard Seattle will obviously have to add a lot more Franklin++
I’d personally rather see who emerges between Franklin and Miller in ST, and send the other down to Tacoma to get everyday reps. Who knows what will happen with these kids, and they still have years of team control.
save montero for a trade with the dodgers; montero and murphy (possibly another B prospect) for joc pederson