Yesterday Matt Holliday and the Cardinals agreed to a seven-year, $120MM deal, possibly worth $136MM over eight years if Holliday finishes in the top ten in the MVP voting in 2016 (he'll head into that season as a 36-year-old). $2MM deferred per year knocks down the present-day value of the deal a bit. Let's take a look at reactions from around the web.
- ESPN's Buster Olney spoke to one GM who thinks the Cardinals overpaid by about $30MM given the lack of competition for Holliday. Another exec's crack: "I guess that will end the collusion talk." Olney also wonders if the Cardinals can afford to pay Holliday and Albert Pujols $43-47MM from 2012 forward. Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports has the same concerns.
- ESPN's Keith Law suggests the Cardinals are the NL Central frontrunners for 2010 and 2011. But the downside to having both Holliday and Pujols locked up for big bucks is that the Cards would need to fill out the rest of the roster with bargains. They might not have the farm system to do so.
- Aaron Schafer of Viva El Birdos offers his take: "the money's fine, but the length of the deal is a killer."
Ouch! Overpaid by 30 mill. If Albert and Matt don’t stay healthy it’s gonna be an early Holliday season for the cards this year.
Are you the same Timmy that is on the Cardinals MLB forum all the time?
Don’t you realize that Soriano is making the same amount of money per year as Holliday? Ouch!
Where did this value of $2M a year deferred come from?
Where did this value of $2M a year deferred money come from?
The Cards can’t afford to fill the rest of their roster with bargains. They can’t just have two superstars and expect them to win games alone. they are only going to get a hit 30 percent of the time
A .300 team BA. Not bad
Can I pray that the Cardinals come to the conclusion they can’t afford to extend Pujols long term?
I know this is a pipe dream, but the thought of Pujols in Fenway makes me yawn at Teixeira to the Yanks.
..
..
Keep dreamin’
Sorry, but Pujols doesn’t fit into the Red Sox new “Defense Plan”! LOL!
Any sports writer (or fan) who thinks that signing Holliday will keep the Cardinals from extending Pujols is an idiot. Do you really think they would make this deal if it had an negative impact on signing a new deal with Pujols?
They actually needed to make this deal to show him they’re committed to winning.
Wasn’t there rumors that the Cardinals had reservations about Pujols’s health going forward into his 30s?
I doubt there’s any truth to that rumor. If it were true, how would the Cards have concluded that Holliday would age better? Holliday is only one day older than Pujols, and Pujols is pretty much the definition of a consistent player.
They needed to sign Holliday, but not exactly make this deal for this amount of time. I mean, if the Cards new of Pujols demands already why not extend him now? Holliday its an outsider who just got sign for 120m for 7 years, what do you think Pujols is going to think and want? Cards initial offer will start at 20M, you think anyone think Pujols is just 3M better than Holliday? Best pure hitter in the game, period who the fans really go to see play. I say Pujols gets around 25M or more for 6 or 7 Yrs.
Yeah why not pay Albert 20 mil or more for the next two years when you could be paying him 16 per based on his current contract…….that makes sense
The only part of that comment that’s close to being informed is the guess that Pujols will get 25 million or more on his next deal. If the poster knew about the situation, at all, he would have known that Pujols was approached by the Cardinals to begin discussing an extension, but Pujols told them he didn’t want to start negotiations until the Holliday situation was resolved. He also said he wanted to see the team building a contender around him before he resigned. I guess I’m old fashioned in that I keep my opinions about things I don’t know about to myself.
I am also one who can handle the money. However, I don’t like long term deals. If it were a 4 year deal, I would be much more comfortable.
According to baseball America cardinals have the worst farm system in baseball.
Worse than the Mets? I’m sorry, how the ass do you figure that one?
Cardianls farm is worse than the mets its ranked around 28th while the mets are ranked around 19th
That happens when you graduate a top 10 guy, trade a top 30-40 guy, and a lot of high upside bullpen arms (Motte, Mclellan), and trade a lot of high upside guys (Todd, Mortenson, Perez). I mean, I am not that worried we can restock. It was 8th best just 1 year ago.
The Cardinals will keep Pujols and Holliday and be fine. There is plenty of precedent in the organization for this spending model, just look at the 2006 World Series team. The combination of Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, Carpenter, and Isringhausen earned over $50 million out of a total payroll under $89 million. They paid the top 5 players on the team about 57% of their payroll.
I don’t think the Cardinals payroll will stay at $100 million past 2010. They will likely have turned the corner on paying off the stadium debt by 2012 when the payroll is likely to peak. If the team can push payroll into the $110-120 million range during the next decade they’ll be fine.
If they do sign Pujols, they will definitley need to extend in to the 115m-120m range to fied a complete roster. As it stands at the start of 11′ they would be on the hook for about 80M for 7 guys (assuming 25M for Pujols). And they would still have to deal with Ludwick 3 year abr (7m?) and several 2 year arbs
As I mentioned in the other Holliday topic, seems the Cards would have been a lot smarter front-loading this deal so they could backload one to Pujols so neither ever creates a bigger financial burden then you would want. Like say they give Pujols an average of 24/per. If it is straight salary like this it means the two would be making 41 MM each season. Front load Holliday while back loading Pujols could cut that down 4 or more million each season. But oh well, that’s their problem and as a Cubs fan, I dont mind them having it.As far as the signing itself – knew it
Knew at the time of teh trade Holliday would be the type of player they would lock in longterm. Now Pujols has the second piece he needed and the club should be a force going forward.Plus with us (the Cubs) somehow stupidly paying at least 36 million each season to two vastly inferior players over at least the next three years, it isnt like they are doing poorly in relation to their biggest competitor. I would gladly trade our burden of Soriano/Zambrano for their Pujols/Holliday combo any day of the week. Stupid Hendry!
I think anybody would trade SorianoZambrano for PujolsHolliday. Most people would trade SorZam for just Pujols.
The Cards might have made it too the WS if not for Hollidays fumble.
while the Cards might not have made the playoffs without him on the club.
But if you want to believe ONE PLAY defines a players value, you go right ahead with that…
The Cardinals got swept in the NLDS… badly. I’m sick of people talking about Matt Hollidays error like he blew Game 7 of the world series, his error was just a drop in the bucket.. Remember when Steve Bartman reached for that foul, threw a wild pitch, botched a double play and gave up 8 runs? Now thats a guy you can blame for not making it to the world series
I doubt that, the Dodgers pitching put them in check. The Walk Pujols plan will be used the next time they make the playoffs.
You never really know in the playoffs. Often it’s simply the hot team.
The Cardinals, OTOH, were flat in the playoffs, and they were flat the last few weeks of the season as well.
OTOH, in 2006, they were got on a hot streak, got some good (and lucky) pitching performances. You never really know in baseball.
You never really know in the playoffs. Often it’s simply the hot team.
The Cardinals, OTOH, were flat in the playoffs, and they were flat the last few weeks of the season as well.
OTOH, in 2006, they were got on a hot streak, got some good (and lucky) pitching performances. You never really know in baseball.
I think they signed Holliday as insurance if they can’t sign Pujols.
They very well could have. I still think a new deal for Pujols gets finished as early as Spring Training, but if he does bolt for New York or Boston in 2 years they now have a franchise type player locked in.
As far as their minor league rating. They promoted or traded a lot of guys last year. Better to use it than lose it. I’ve seen this team be regarded as having a poor farm system for well over a decade. During that time they’ve won more than any team in the NL.
“Better to use it than lose it.” Are you making an argument to trade prospects or not? Either way I hope you see the irony in that statement
All these articles are only to sell print or get clicks. I mean these articles talking about locking up Wainwright and Carpenter is going to be effected and Pujols, I’m not even from St. Louis and I know that Carpenter is signed thru 2012 and Wainwright 2013 so 3-4 more seasons for both and when do you start worrying about locking up PITCHERS that are still under contract for 3-4 more seasons especially Carp who’s going to be 37 when he’s a FA and has been the comeback player of the year 2x since he’s so injury prone. So ya let’s not sign a key player because an injury prone 37 year old pitcher is going to be a free agent after 3 more seasons, oh wait did I mention he hasn’t even played half his contract he’s currently on due to injuries. I don’t know it really bugs me when these guys are paid to know about these things and just put garbage out to get clicks or sell ink, it really makes me not trust what they say about teams I don’t know as much about.
The Cardinals will lockup Pujols even if it means giving him 40mil per and put all minor league players on the field w/ him and Holliday for the rest of his career and stay in last place. I think people in Stl go to games for Pujols more than anything and it gives them a sense of pride as any city would have in a player in any sport that’s a possible “greatest of all time”. The city would go into riot if they let Pujols go whether it’s smartest financially or not and don’t forget they would lose more money than what he would cost just by letting him go in merchandise tickets etc.
Does anybody know the club option amounts for Carpenter in 2012 and Wainwright in 2012 & 2013?
carp’s is 15MM which i dont think will be exercised because he could be had for les on the open market because he will be 35 or 36 with 2 major injuries to his name. Wainwrights..not for sure but its not a lot at all..like 5MM each.
If he’s as effective as he was last year in the next two years that option will certainly be picked up. Wainwright is guaranteed for just over $10mil for 2010 and 2011, with options for 2012 $9mil and 2013 $12mil. I can’t see the Cards turning any of these down.
Pujols: $12M ($3M/year, 2007-10) deferred without interest, to be paid in 10 installments of $1.2M from 2020 to 2029. Pujols seems to be more than willing to accept deffered payments to stay in STL.
Pretty easy to check Cot’s for this:
Carpenter: $15 million
Wainwright: $9 million and $12 million
Thanks! I can’t get to Cott’s at work *&Y(*&T(#W*Q&TR(* Firewall!
Carpenter is 15M in ’12
Wainwright option for 2012 is 9M and 2013 is 12M
Its funny. People complain that we either overspent or put too many years on the end. These same people would be whining if Holiday wasn’t a Cardinal come spring. You can’t have your cake and eat it too! Just be happy we got him. The if the worst case scenario happens and we can’t sign Pujols, trade him for some great prospects. We would still have Matt to build around. Quit crying either way! Jeez
Though if you think about it, you realize that Holliday isn’t worth seven years. The price was fine, but big contracts are risky. Especially when their contract runs through their late 30’s.
I think that my Generation, as Cardinals fans have been spoiled. More or less they have been very good for the last ten or eleven years. We are not used to seeing them lose so we throw a fit. Even when they were losing we were still greatly entertained. They didn’t win much with McGwire, but I gladly paid whatever for a ticket just to go see him hit. Kind of like going to the circus lol. If this team ever hit a real long low, I don’t know what we as fans would do. We are not Pittsburgh. We demand darn near perfection, or at the very least fantastic entertainment while losing! lol
It’s fun reading non-St. Louisans talk about Pujols leaving. Pujols has long said that he’s not ready to extend just yet, but that he wants to stay with the Cardinals as long as they show they’re ready to continue to be a winner. Holliday’s signing does that.
Pujols will be offered a contract-for-life deal, and, as Benjamin_Chiasson said, the dollars will be deferred over many years. (Remember, Bruce Sutter is still being paid by the Braves!) I agree with the 10-yr/$315MM talk.
Keep in mind that the DeWitt family and other Cardinal investors are more concerned with the value of their club than anything, and the Cards’ value would sharply decline without Pujols. I look forward to his statue one day standing alongside Stan Musial’s.
Pujols should get 35 million once he reaches the open market. A lot of money, lets see if the discount he expects is the one he will get.
Only a fool would bet against El Hombre retiring as a Cardinal, as for how much or how long, we will see, but he’s staying in St. Louis. There has been no indication, no legitimate rumor or whisper that any GM, manager, organisation, team, writer, scout… anyone believes that he could sign a contract for another team.
As a fan of baseball, I don’t like that Holliday signed a 7 year 120 million deal when Pujols signed a 7 year 100 million deal. I understand Pujols signed at a different time but one could argue that the economic conditions were BETTER at the time Pujols signed. This makes me angry.
Pujols signed his contract during his arbitration years, Holliday during FA, makes a big difference when you have exclusivity.
I love how Cards fans truly believe that Pujols is going to sign below market value because he loves StL. First, the players association won’t let him do that if he goes to free agency. Second, everyone says it isn’t about the money, until they are the MVP and not the highest paid player on their team. Third, if he really would stay in StL for below market value, why did he turn down 2 extensions and ended talks with the team already? It is always about the money. St. Louis as a city is hurting financially. I went to alot of games in StL that were less than 80% full, so while they are above average compared to the rest of baseball in their financial standing, they are not where they were 4 years ago.
Look at “DeWitt’s Pond” next to the stadium that was supposed to house “Ballpark Village.” It was supposed to be done before the AllStar game and they still haven’t broke ground. Money is shorter in St. Louis than it was and it will have an impact on Pujols’ contract. Don’t forget, Wainright, Carpenter, Ludwick and Molina are due for new contracts or at least big raises through arbitration in the next 2 years. All of this has a huge impact on Pujols and what the team can offer now that Holliday took a huge chunk of what the team wants to spend pe season.
Waino and Carp have contracts through 2013 and 2012 respectivley, albeit through options. Carp will probably have nothing left by then though, he’s come through a hell of a lot but he’s no Randy Johnson. Waino’s options are very, very affordable given his quality (2012 $9mil, 2013 $12mil). Yadi has an option for $7mil come 2012, not exactly a big commitment and i don’t see the club retaining Ludwick past his last arb. year, 2011 where he probably won’t be paid more than 7-8mil. Holliday and Pujols are the only big commitment STL is going to have, looking at Pujols’ current contract shows he is happy to take deffered money and he has said that he is happy to sign below market value, and if he wants to do that no-one can stop him.
I don’t think anyone expects Pujols to take a vastly below market contract. $25 million a year is probably the least we will get.
But I don’t understand why people don’t think they can afford to pay him and Holliday.
Attendance last year was 3.34 million, good for #4. They’ve paid off the stadium debt ahead of schedule. They don’t really have many good players other than Pujols/Holliday that they have to worry about – basically Wainwright and Carp (if he manages to stay healthy)
I don’t think anyone expects Pujols to take a vastly below market contract. $25 million a year is probably the least we will get.
But I don’t understand why people don’t think they can afford to pay him and Holliday.
Attendance last year was 3.34 million, good for #4. They’ve paid off the stadium debt ahead of schedule. They don’t really have many good players other than Pujols/Holliday that they have to worry about – basically Wainwright and Carp (if he manages to stay healthy)
what exactly is market value for pujols? fangraphs says 40million..but cmon if babe ruth was alive today, he wouldn’t even be worth 40 million a year..thats the payroll of the entire san diego padres, or 2 pittsburg pirates.
say 25million? no more than 30million i think…thats a bit more than the overpayed AROD got..and pujols is worth about as much as what AROD got
Note: im not comparing pujols to AROD, im comparing AROD’s contract with what pujols might get.
albert pujols contract. 10-years 250MM. that would be CRAZY! Cards overpaid for Brad Penny for 7.5MM! that money could have been used to fill the 3B void. Dave Duncan could have replaced piniero by working his magic with a young minor league pitcher
Dave Duncan has never worked his magic on a young minor league pitcher. Matt Morris and Wainwright are pretty much it, and the latter probably owes more to the Braves coaches than Duncan.
They also have at least two young candidates for the 3B job. Keeping them in the minors doesn’t solve anything.
Dave Duncan has never worked his magic on a young minor league pitcher. Matt Morris and Wainwright are pretty much it, and the latter probably owes more to the Braves coaches than Duncan.
They also have at least two young candidates for the 3B job. Keeping them in the minors doesn’t solve anything.
ive said this on another thread but i think its worth mentioning again.does anyone else think the cardinals are in a near identical situation the phillies were in? they were also an 88-95MM payroll team until they began fielding regular contenders and wanted to keep their stars (thome,utly,howard,etc etc) and now their payroll is about 125MM+ which isn’t gigantic compared to you know who..but its a very reasonable amount for a regular playoff contender who goes deep in the play offs too. does no one else see this as the SAME situation the cardinals are in now??
( i know thome isnt with the phillies anymore)
They don’t have as many stars as the Phillies.
It’s not like the days of Pujols-Edmonds-Rolen. Before Holliday, there were jokes about the lineup being Pujols and the 7 Dwarfs. Now it’s Pujols, Holliday and 6 Dwarfs. Half are young players, half are journeymen, a couple are scrapheap reclaimals.
Other than Ludwick and Rasmus who could both easily hit 25 homeruns this year if healthy.
cardinals dont have enough stars eh..well forget that cy young winner Chris carpenteror that gosh darn Adam wainwright..we all know he is a 6 foot 7 dwarfor that crap catcher molina..forget those gold gloves and 300BA..he sucksor Ryan Ludwick and Rasmus who are both still young who can pop 25Homeruns..their terrible
or that horrible defensive guy at short stop named Brendan Ryan..14 UZR/150..better than about 90% of the short stops MLB (including the gold glove winner jimmy rollins and derek jeter).
and dont even get me started on pujols..worst of the bunch.
by the way? care to share with us who these “scrapheap reclaimals” are? its albert pujols right!
They don’t have as many stars as the Phillies.
It’s not like the days of Pujols-Edmonds-Rolen. Before Holliday, there were jokes about the lineup being Pujols and the 7 Dwarfs. Now it’s Pujols, Holliday and 6 Dwarfs. Half are young players, half are journeymen, a couple are scrapheap reclaimals.
It makes me SO angry when people say “How are the cardinals going to afford Pujols now?”. If they didn’t think they could sign Pujols after Holliday, they wouldn’t even say a word to Holliday. I’m sure that Pujols will resign with the Cards. St. Louis is his only home. He will not get A-Rod money, maybe not even Texeria money, but he will resign. He’ll probably sign a 10YR/200M contract at the end of next season. But for now, let’s think about th 2010 season which will hopefully bring St. Louis another division title and another World Series Title.
It’s not that hard to see the Cardinals raising ticket prices to increase their payroll to 110-120 million in the future. What’s the surprise in that – they have been doing it off/on for a number of years. Yes their farm system has to develop more players and more Latin players have to be signed, but it can be done – it’s just not as easy as raising ticket prices in a couple of years!!
Sure they want the Pujols of the present. But can they afford to give him the biggest contract in MLB history through his declining years? Pujols will be asking for nearly a decade. Can St. Louis give him 30 million for a year of 39 yr old Albert?
With a terrible farm system, I can see them trading him away for a mighty haul.
I guess my point is St. Louis doesn’t have the resources to hand out the “biggest contract in history”.
Also, if Holliday is worth 7 years, Albert deserves more.
Never say never. How many times don’t we here players say they never want to play for another organization than their current one?
I say he resign with the Cards but it will be for equal or more that what Holliday got. Equal being a big discount.
dude shut up with this terrible farm system crap. were not the yankees who just pocket the prospects and buy talent on the marktet. we gave promotions to the big league levels to tyler greene colby rasmus, blake hawskworth, chris perez, and jason motte. those guys who were still regared as “prospects” were the reason the cards farm was #8 in 2009 before the trades. now their all MLB players..who cares about the “depleted” farm if they all graduated. tahts like saying a high school is so much better than another high school because they have more students..make sense to you? didnt think so.
Trade? Not a chance. Pujols means more to St. Louis than being just another great player. The attitude is different (not saying better or worse) in the midwest as opposed to the coasts. For a Cards’ GM or owner to trade Pujols would be tantamount to treason in St. Louis…almost as bad as the Belgians owning Anheuser-Busch.
Why should someone just stating a fact “shut up”? Oh wow, you graduated great players like Tyler Greene who is 26 and hit .222 last year. Isn’t he third on the SS depth chart? Chris Perez? You actually had to add a decent prospect to Perez (Jess Todd) to get three months of Mark DeRosa.
Colby Rasmus appears to have a bright future, but if you don’t care, as a fan, about your team’s farm system being diluted and having to mine the fringes of the free agent market to fill holes around Pujols, Holliday, etc., then I don’t know what to tell you.
he will definitely get more than holliday. i dont think he will top a-rod though, and he has shown a willingness to be creative with deferrals and that kind of stuff. i am not worried about the cards ability to re-sign him, i am only worried about the ability to surround him with good players on a long-term basis.
Pujols did say that he could see himself playing for one other team at the end of his career — the Royals, his hometown team. (And the ones who passed on him.) If he does take a season away from the Cardinals I do hope it means playing for KC, just for the kick-in-the-teeth message it sends to certain Northeastern teams.
I’m seeing that attitude difference in all these posts. As a Sox fan, no player is above the team winning (Nomar, Pedro). I didn’t know that kind of player/fan loyalty existed outside of movies.
they have done a decent job recently of finding amateur talent. they know the farm is important to their strategy and they open up the pocket books for miller and mateo. unfortunately mateo didnt work out. still, there are enough useful parts in the system to get them through the next few years. brendan ryan, jaime garcia, freese, craig, jones and sanchez are all capable of making contributions soon. none of them project to be stars. the cards don’t need them to be stars.
i still think it was dumb of them to trade wallace for the right to pay holliday market value. they needed to get someone under team control for at least two seasons from that trading chip.
“having to mine the fringes of the free agent market to fill holes around Pujols, Holliday, etc.,”
thats what the cards have been doing the last few years, and they are good at it.
You might call it dumb, but its how we’ve won more games than any other NL team in the last decade. I’ll take that.
If Holliday had been seen to be willing to take a lesser contract then other teams would have jumped in. If the Cards had not been willing to offer what Holliday and Boras wanted, remember this is Scott Boras we’re dealing with, they would have walked away. Do you seriously think that Matt Holliday would struggle to find a team if he said no to the Cards? Sure we weren’t openly bidding with anyone else, doesn’t mean we didn’t have to scare people off.
we will extend Albert don’t worry. Why would he ever want to play in Boston? Everything about St. Louis is better. We will have the resources to pay him what he wants. Red-sox are ALWAYS second fiddle to the Yanks. Find someone else to try to steal.
Q: Why would he ever want to play in Boston? A: The chance to win a championship. I have doubts the Cardinals can keep Holliday and Pujols AND afford a competitive team around them.Q: Red-sox are ALWAYS second fiddle to the Yanks.A: Sure when it comes to money, but the Yanks have Texiera. Neither Texiera or Pujols will want to leave their glove on the bench in order to DH.
Why would you put Pujols’ glove into question? He is a gold glove first baseman who is still, in reality, learning the position. He was a 3rd baseman by trade, moved to the OF, and now manning first. If you had the opportunity, like I do, to watch him play the position over a 150+ games, you would see how truly special he is with a glove.
Exactly. Why would he DH for the yanks if he could play firstbase for the Sox?