Links for Tuesday…
- We shouldn't expect a Joe Mauer extension soon, according to this tweet from USA Today's Bob Nightengale.
- The Padres avoided arbitration with Scott Hairston, signing the outfielder to a one-year deal worth $2.45MM, according to MLB.com's Corey Brock.
- Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports believes that the Tigers have moved into the non-denial stage regarding Johnny Damon (via Twitter).
- A's outfielder Travis Buck has a chip on his shoulder after watching the A's acquire multiple outfielders, reports CSNBayArea's Mychael Urban. But as ESPN's Rob Neyer points out, Buck hasn't done much recently with the bat.
- Free agent outfielder Darin Erstad told ESPN's Jerry Crasnick he'd love to play in 2010, but "there is nowhere to find at-bats."
- Dylan Hernandez of the L.A. Times tweets that the Dodgers "remain interested in Jeff Weaver, but their roster situation could prevent them from offering him a major-league deal."
- Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports names the D'Backs, Cubs, Reds, and Nationals as teams monitoring free agent starter Kris Benson. Benson didn't pitch much in the last three seasons due to rotator cuff surgery.
- Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr. further explained his rationale behind the Cliff Lee trade, reports Scott Lauber of The News Journal. Amaro's reasoning didn't sway my opinion; none of the three prospects he received are in Keith Law's top 100 (though Ramirez is #101). The long-term value of Phillippe Aumont, J.C. Ramirez, and Tyson Gillies should not outweigh the extra 4-5 wins Lee would've provided in 2010. And did Amaro even shop Lee around for the best package?
- Sam Mellinger of the Kansas City Star is pessimistic on the Royals, who he says don't offer much beyond Zack Greinke, Billy Butler, and Joakim Soria.
- RotoAuthority looks at Boston's closer situation from a fantasy baseball point of view.
Why is Keith Law being put forward as the end all of prospect rating? Why not list their places on BP’s top 100 or BA’s?
Your entire point is invalidated by it’s reliance of Keith Law’s rankings. Keith has got to be the most biased talent evaluator out there, pushing prospects and systems that fit his mentality rather than performance and true potential.
It’s not the fact that the Phils traded Lee that bothers me. I get the whole “long term thinking”, but the point of “not shopping Lee around” is what bothers me. The Phillies should have received better prospects, and could have.
To me, if you trade for Halladay and still have Lee, then people start dreaming about an all-star rotation and shopping Lee around become difficult. If you want to do it, you have to to it right away, as they did.
That’s an excellent point that I haven’t seen mentioned before.
Yep, and the Mariners took advantage of the Phillies weakness in this position. There needed to be a craftier PR move, maybe something such as a leak shortly before the trade that the Phillies, have limited salary resources and may try to move Lee if they can get Halladay. That way the other shoe dropping is expected by the fan base but doesn’t give away our bargaining position as much. When shopping him we could hold onto the option of keeping him.
oh of course….the lee/halladay trades HAD to occur simultaneously. had the fanbase been able to consider these two together for, say, a week or so, and then have lee be traded!!!! wow, ruben would have been forced into exile in tibet. i mean, us loyal followers to MLBTR watched this trade unfold as a “three-team trade” between PHI, TOR, and SEA, with possibly the phils NOT having to give up drabek and taylor because seattle was sending prospects to toronto also. when the dust settled and reality set in, phils fans were left scratching their heads. i guess one way to successfully mask the unpopular trade of a newfound CY hero is by bringing in the best pitcher in baseball for undermarket value…….its PR101 and ruben is the instructor
Keith Law? Hhahahahahah
From Ricciardi, “He’s become a writer. It doesn’t take long. Keith Law is officially an idiot.”
If Ricciardi is your ammo against Keith Law, you should keep looking.
When you think about hiring someone, you don’t call their previous employer? I’m no Ricciardi fan, but Ricciardi’s failures included Keith’s tenure with the Jays.
Why would you call a previous employer who’s had his foot surgically removed from his mouth about 15 times?
Mellinger’s post on the Royals was the second part of a two part story. The first part was an optimistic, “what if everything goes right”, look at the 2010 season. The one that you linked was the pessimistic, “what if everything goes wrong”, look at the 2010 season. The pessimistic one might be the most likely outcome, but if you are going to link it you should also link the optimistic post. Royals fans have enough pessimism without having the rare optimistic outlook overlooked.
Amaro definitely could’ve gotten a better return for Lee in my opinion, he didn’t shop around though. When someone made him an offer (in a 3 way trade that included Halladay) Amaro didn’t look at the big picture and jumped on it. Halladay will be great for them, but they didn’t maximize their return. I really don’t think Amaro has done a good job this offseaon…just my opinion.
I don’t think he’s done a great job either and i’m sure we are not only ones thinking that. Not to mention they didnt add much payroll flexibility for next year.
most people thought he did a bad job last season… I’m still waiting for Dave Cameron to admit he might have been wrong about Raul Ibanez…
true, not much payroll flexibility….but every current starting position player is signed through 2011 except jayson werth. he comes off the books after 2010, as does some bullpen/bench money. barring any unforseen wild occurrences to the starters, their ‘core’ is basically set up. their offseason next year will probably be quiet, thats all…which sucks b/c next year’s FA class is gonna be a damn good one
Any team that took on Lee was going to have it`s minor league system raped for a one year rental. Lee is going to the open market next year so unless he is the last player you think will put you over the top into the world series he is not a good fit.
Under the circumstances Amaro got the best deal possible.
I don’t think Tim is pointing to Law’s Top 100 as if it proves they aren’t great prospects. I think the general consensus is the Phils didn’t get a great package in return. I didn’t like the deal for them either.
The 3 prospects plus Francisco are more valuable than the 4 prospects the Phils gave to Cleveland. I call that a win. Plus, the Phils got the value that Lee supplied to get the team to the World Series last year. Amaro did well.
If you wan’t to look at it that way, then it’s a good deal. But just because you got a great deal when acquiring Lee doesn’t mean you should give a discount when trading him away.
Worth noting that Jack Zdurencik has said he ended up giving the Phillies exactly the three prospects they asked for at the start of the negotiation. These are prospects the Phillies like a great deal. It doesn’t make a whole lot of difference what Keith Law thinks of them.
yea we can look at this a bunch of different ways, really, much have been talked about in some way or another:
if you are ruben amaro, which is the more important option for trading lee:
1) shop him around. make 6 serious calls (as likely only contenders are using lee for a 1year rental) and see what package you can get. get 2 STUDS and another dude. take your time, get a great deal. get a bunch of players on keith law’s list so people will be happy.
2) just get the deal done as roy halladay is preparing to come to philly. make it happen so the two trades appear to be a 3-team deal, and by the time its over the positive of roy halladay hopefully outweighs the negative of losing lee. this option will be made in haste because roy halladay is really the centerpiece of the whole transaction…
and so he chose option 2…had to be one or the other
it was a tough situation. Amaro couldnt have traded Lee for the best offer before getting Halladay because getting Roy was not a definite. At the same time, Amaro couldnt have traded Lee after getting Halladay because it would have driven the philly fan bonkers. they would have gotten used to the idea of having both Lee and Halladay only to see Amaro move Lee for hte highest bidder of prospects. He had to do it the same day and get the best he could in that timeframe, IMO
A GM can’t let the fans get in the way of his job like that. If he could have gotten a better package for Lee by holding on to him for a couple more weeks, then that’s what he should have done. By essentially taking less to not upset the fans, he wouldn’t be doing his job.
I definitely agree with you I just think it may have been a small factor, which is PR. Some people still think it was a 3 way deal.
Benny Looper, who spent 23 years with the Mariners, most recently as their VP of player development, left the M’s to take up a VP position with the Phillies after the 2008 season. So chances are, what the Phillies know about the Mariners farm system is pretty much what the Mariners know about the Mariners farm system. As a result, the Phillies’ confidence that they got three good prospects, given how well they knew the players already, probably greatly outweighs the uncertainty they’d take on if they went to some other organization and had to rely on much more imperfect information when they submitted their prospect wish list. What’s a better deal? 3 guys you know you like, or 3 guys where all you have is a scouting report and some chatter?
If anything, I would have to think they could have started a minor bidding war between the Rangers and Mariners for him. They probably could have gotten the Rangers to fork over one of Smoak/Feliz/Perez or the Mariners to trade Triunfel in that scenario. Everyone knows about the Rangers great farm system, and they touched base on many of the top starters on the market this offseason I’d have to think they would have made an attempt to acquire Lee
If Cliff Lee gets traded twice in 6 months for what everyone agrees is not full value, it might be time to realize that MLB GMs don’t place as high a value on him as commentators do.
It’s tough to lose Lee, but I agree with this comment. What about him caused two “low-ball” deals to go through? What am I missing.
Kris Benson comeback?
Anna Benson is the only thing this guy has ever contributed to baseball fans…
never heard that one before
I agree with those who say the Phillies could have gotten more for Lee. These prospect lists are always somewhat subjective but many believe that Aumont is just a reliever and Gilles looks like a 4th outfielder. The Phillies have shipped out Jason Knapp, Lou Marson, Jason McDonald, Carlos Carrasco, Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, and Travis D’Arnaud — then replaced them with a hard throwing reliever, a 4th outfielder type and a questionable pitching prospect in Juan Ramirez — all to get a couple months of Lee and then get a slight upgrade to Halladay. I think it’s a pretty heavy price to pay. I understand the Phillies are going for the whole enchilada again this year, but to claim that their farm system didn’t take a big hit in the process is mostly wishful thinking by hometown fans.
They get 4 years of Halladay at below market value, Ben Francisco for 4 years, 3 months of Lee, and 3 prospects. The farm system certainly took a hit, but did they lose anyone who gives as much value as a top 3 in the league pitcher for 4 years?
What I am saying is 2 things: 1) The Phillies should have gotten more for Lee and 2) their farm system took a big hit.
the phils got halladay for 4 years probably 5 at a great price. i ll trade all those prospects for that any day of the week.
Honestly, what makes you think the Phils could have gotten more for Lee? Was it the awesome haul that Cleveland got for him when he would have been around for two – not just one – playoff pushes and postseasons? In that deal the Phils gave away 4 diminishing prospects and got back not only Lee, but a cost controlled major league level outfielder. I think Dave Cameron is right to notice that for whatever confusing reason, other GMs just don’t want to give up premium talent for Lee.
But here’s another idea. Dave wrote this about the Yankees this offseason:
“The Yankees have entered the prime area of significant diminishing marginal utility. They are so good that adding another high quality player doesn’t help them that much in 2010, and because of the long term contract that is required, they’d be risking future flexibility to add wins that may actually matter for an upgrade that just isn’t necessary.”
I might get flamed for this, and certainly I understand that the Phils are not as good as the Yankees, but something like this rationale might have played a part in the Phils deciding to move Lee. The argument is this: the Phils basically don’t need the “4-5 wins Lee would’ve provided in 2010,” and by keeping him, failing to sign Blanton long-term, and having an empty cupboard for the next two-three years, the Phils would have been “risking future flexibility to add wins that may actually matter for an upgrade that just isn’t necessary.” PECOTA – god bless it’s confused little soul – and other projections make it look like the Phils are pretty far out ahead in the NL east. Keeping Lee wouldn’t have a great impact on the Phils playoff chances, and though it would have made the Phils better in the playoffs, there’s so much variance in playoff performance and odds that it would be foolish to trade future flexibility and talent for potential increased in-playoff odds. Just a thought.
I think it’s logical to suggest the Phillies thought they didn’t need the 4-5 wins Lee would’ve added in 2010. I don’t agree with that, but I could see that being part of their stance.
I agree that teams aren’t giving up premium talent for Lee, but the Phillies didn’t even get close to “premium” talent. They didn’t even get anyone that projects as a major league starter.
One of Amaro’s VPs (Benny Looper) was the Mariners’ VP of Player Development until the end of the 2008 season. So he and the Phillies presumably know a lot more about these prospects than most people. And that’s a lot better situation for them, in terms of having confidence that their prospect evaluations are correct, than it would be if they dealt with a team whose system they didn’t know as well (which is basically every other system). Prospects are a dice roll to begin with, but it probably feels a lot better to do it if you know the players as well as the Phillies do here.
” the Phils basically don’t need the “4-5 wins Lee would’ve provided in 2010,” and by keeping him, failing to sign Blanton long-term, and having an empty cupboard for the next two-three years,”
how so ?
keeping lee for 2010 doesn’t mean they are obligated to sign him for 2011 and beyond..and keeping lee would help them in the playoffs…phillie fans are upset because they feel the window closing soon…and this move only made the window close that much more…michael taylor and drabek would’ve helped this team in the future..
yea and an interesting thought. phils owner david montgomery basically subscribes to that exact strategy—put together a contending team, focus on winning the division, and hope to get hot during the playoffs/world series. bingo. it seems so easy. don’t need to go in as a favorite because anything can happen. just play competetive and play good in the postseason. im not a fan of that strategy; for once i kinda wanted to go all in as a favorite with halladay and lee for 2010, but it didnt work out.
Cliff Lee = Barry Zito. I know it hurts for some to admit this but its true. Some idiot GM will throw 100 mil at this guy and he will regress to his actual talents as he ages.
Because both are left-handed..and….??
Thing is, Cliff Lee is actually getting better AND his velocity has increased over the last couple years. When Zito signed in San Francisco, he was getting worse and his velocity was down.
Both left handed yes, both experienced failures and successes prior to their big contract. Both will be/were signed to be a number one ace which neither truly is.
Because 21 yr old centerfielders with great speed who hit .341 last year grow on trees(aka Gillies). MLB.com had Aumont in the top 50. And the almighty Kieth Law has Ramirez just missing his top 100. Not that bad i’d say. They had to move swiftly because they couldnt have Lee and Halladay together then trade Lee a week later. Also I love how all the experts out there think they know more than a GM (with advising from Gillick) who just put together a team that went to back to back world series. Give it a chance.
21 year olds putting up numbers in A ball do grow on trees though.
Yes People hit 300 and above in the Cal League and never come close to it again.
The Cal League will make a JV HS player look like a stud. Come out to High Desert, Lancaster(Pitchers worst nightmare.. likely the greatest hitters park in all of baseball) Inland Empire, ECT.. you’ll see what I mean.
i like the ‘glass half full’ mentality here, bro. keep it up. phils are still the best team in the national league with or without cliff lee
The only good way to evaluate the Lee trade will be to look back on it. Either Lee isn’t as good as he looked for the past two years and everyone knows it, the prospects the Phils received from the Mariners are better than they are being ranked, or Amaro is a moron. As a Phils fan I’m afraid its the latter, but I’m willing to wait and see before I jump on him. Personally I don’t think Lee is about to start pitching at his pre-2008 levels.
I disagree. I think the long term value of the prospects completely justifies the 4-5 wins Lee “might” have one. Yet, they acquired another ace, and its unknown how many wins he will get now that he is on a really good team. Great trade for the Phils, great for the M’s(IF they can contend this year, or bring back Lee) and great trade for the Jays.
Really should have played Angels against M’s to get the best package.
I keep seeing people say, “they should have received more”…so please, someone enlighten me as to who the Phils would have been WILLING to trade him to, that would have been interested in trading three of their top-10 prospects for a one-year rental of Cliff Lee, with an almost guaranteed trip to free agency.
Keep in mind Philly probably didn’t want to trade him in-division (probably preferred the AL) or to teams they would likely see in the WS (NYY or BOS).
The only team I can think of off the top of my head is LAA, and who’s to say Amaro didn’t make ONE phone call?
I understand not liking the deal, I understand people saying it was a mistake, but I don’t understand posters saying there were all these better deals out there. Where?!
Jim Salisbury said The Phillies contacted two teams and The Texas Rangers were one of them. So it’s not like he just gave him to Sea.
Tim – Tuned in 590 The Fan & caught your gig. What a couple of cement-heads. Never thought anybody could make the Score crew in Chicago sound lucid but these guys pulled it off. Making fun of your name? (Larry Dierker). Wow, where’s the red stapler?
I hope that these teams are looking at Benson as a spring training invite and a AAA player. Whom with a solid start in AAA or a great spring can fight for a long relief and maybe 5 starter spot. I dont know about the Cubs and Reds but for the Dbacks that makes sense because they are stoking up on cheap guy to compete for that number five slot.
LOL because Keith Law is the end all and be all of judging talent.
I’d rather they not be in Keith “The Mets are going to win the World Series every year” Law’s list.
Tyson Gillies is ranked higher than Aumont? The fuck is Keith Law thinking? I remember in the WBC when Aumont pitched out of a jam. Electric stuff. The broadcasters said to remember the name Phillip Aumont as he was just a baller in the low A classes
Maybe playing and competing for a spot with a chip on his shoulder will finally bring out the Travis Buck we’ve been waiting for since 2007.
There is definitely a trade coming, starting with shipping recently DFA’s Taveras to a place where he truly belongs (anyone who needs a pinch runner)
As for the other DFA’s, the A’s aren’t losing anything of value really. Petit was never in the big picture, and Eveland had no chance of leapfrogging Anderson, Cahill, Gio, Outman, or even Mazzarro to get a crack at the starting rotation. He would probably be a 3-4 starter in Sacremento even.
I know lee is a great pitcher, but 4-5 wins better than halladay in 2010? I think what you were saying is lee add’s 4-5 wins to the phils in 2010, and you think that outweighs the long term value of the prospects. That could be true, but don’t forget there was one other guy in that trade. His name is Roy, and in my opinion he’s the best pitcher to pick up a baseball in 20 years. they also got 6 million bucks.
I’m a Tigers fan, and I feel the Tigers should sign Damon ONLY if he is willing to take a 1 year, $3-4 million deal. I would hate to see the Tigers overpay for yet another old, broke down player and bail Boras out.
JD had a career year in 2009 that he will not come close to matching this year even if he played in Yankee Stadium. I’am glad that he turned down both Yankee offers.
yea i dont need to rip keith law, it seems he is already unpopular enough on here and thats fine by me. his list was organized by the ceiling-level of these prospects, NOT necessarily the guys who are closer to MLB roles. so in the case of aumont, the fact that many see his potential injuries leading to a career in the bullpen is going to drive his prospect value down down down. but thats okay by me, for now. the phils obviously like this guys stuff, his dominance, and are confident his mechanics can be fine-tuned into an incredible pitcher. if he comes in as the cheaper heir to brad lidge’s 37 million dollar waste of money, and is even an AVERAGE closer for a couple years, that is more valuable than 1 year of cliff lee. if aumont proves all the analysists correct and fails as a starter, im telling you there is no way his combination of pitches will fail at striking out major league hitters from the bullpen. im excited to see this guy even if/when it does come down to a bullpen role
Wow, Tim. You were pretty vocal in shutting up the Law haters today. Always fun to read.
can Erstad still play the outfield? bring him back Halos
What did Santana bring when the Mets traded for him?