Sunday night linkage..
- The Nats still expect to see Yunesky Maya pitch for them before the end of the year, according to Adam Kilgore of the Washington Post.
- The Pirates opened up their books to the media and Dejan Kovacevic of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has the goods.
- Florida held on to Cody Ross until August because they had hoped to reassert themselves in the playoff chase, writes MLB.com's Joe Frisaro.
- It doesn't sound as though Andy McCullough of the Star-Ledger (via Twitter) likes the Mets chances of landing Cliff Lee this offseason.
- Joe Cowley of the Chicago Sun-Times tweets that Ken Williams isn't on the road with the White Sox but he doesn't know if the GM is going after someone on the waiver wire.
- Dodgers skipper Joe Torre thinks that late season callups can create an unfair advantage, writes MLB.com's Evan Drellich.
If Mets ownership is smart, they start ACTING like a NY area team and spend some money AND hire a GM who knows how to run an organization .. Make a splash in FA to gel with the young guns they have .. make sure it’s a QUICK rebuilding process
The last 4 years the Mets have been 5th, 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in payroll. Not spending money hasn’t been their problem.
true… they suck and have a decreasing fan base mostly because they’re stupid… maybe a little unlucky, but mostly stupid.
I really have no idea what Joe Torre is talking about in that article. Can someone fill me in on where he was going with all that?
Anyway, the Mets are a train wreck, so I’m not sure the Mets have a chance at Cliff Lee barring a 20% premium above whatever the Rangers and Yankees offer.
I doubt Cliff Lee would want to have anything to do with a team such as the Mets. They’re playing poorly and they don’t have a reliable coaching staff or front office. Assuming Lee knows that, I don’t think he would go there if they paid him 50% more. I’d think he would like to stay in a winning environment with a winning team like the one that he has been provided with in Texas.
I sort of hear you, but if the Yankees offer $120 million and the Mets 50% more ($180 million), he’ll be a Met. No chance the Players Association lets him leave $60 million on the table.
Since when can the MLBPA control what contract a player signs if he’s got two offers on the table?
Since, always? They cannot directly force a player to take a certain contract over another, but they are very influential in their ways. And since baseball contracts are very much about precedent, you can bet that the MLBPA will lobby hard for the player to accept the larger contract so that other players don’t lose out on money in the future.
– ECB
No doubt they would, but there’s still a world of difference between “lobby hard” and “control.”
That said they wouldn’t need to. If somebody was offering 50% more, I don’t see any player walking away.
World of difference? Heh, you’d be surprised. Keep in mind how much the PA does for the players.
That’s idiotic. That’s seriously idiotic.
Let’s say I’m a franchise player for the Yankees, and for some crazy reason, I turn age 37, I have 800 homeruns already under my belt, have never batted under .310, and have never had under 100 RBIs. All hypothetical, mind you.
Now I want to help the organization, so after making 30mil/year for the past 10 years, I sign a 5-year/1mil per contract. I publicly say it’s because I want to help the franchise I care about. They wouldn’t let me?
I got it…You are Sanohari Oh!
*Sadaharu Oh
My bad. Thanks Henry.
That example is highly unlikely, hence hard to answer realistically. Again, it’s all about precedent. Keep that in mind and you’ll get your answer – look at what other 37 year olds got paid, look at what other 800 homer guys got paid, look at other .310, 100rbis, etc… The PA wants to create “trends” that favor the players, obviously, as that is what their primary function as an association is. So for someone to accept much less money than what their market value is (what other teams are willing to offer), will be heavily dissuaded by the union.
And that doesn’t just mean “I really think you shouldn’t do this.” It’s more along the lines of “Look at what we’ve done for you, other players, and what we can do for you, other players. If you take this deal, you are hurting the rest of the players, and we will no longer be able to guarantee certain things.” Something along those lines, I’m guessing, with a lot more concrete information and statistics.
In that situation there is no bigger contract left on the table, thats the main point the commentator was making.
No. You couldn’t sign a 5 yr1 million contract. You have to make the league minimum. And in 10 years that very well could be 1 million per season.
Fair enough, the 50% was a bit of an exaggeration, even still I didn’t know the MLBPA had that much of an influence on players and their contracts.
They do. This was a topic that was front and center surrounding the Sabathia and Teixeira negotiations.
there is a real good chance..of couser the yankee will be in the mix but if the mets thinks that they can make a run to the postseason next years i see cliff in a mets uniform
Torre…huh?
I don’t think spending money is the answer. Spening money on the RIGHT players “YES” but they’ve spent plenty and have little to show for it. The Mets spent $129 mil this year, and w/o research, I’m sure that’s probably top 5 in the league or close to it. Since you can’t really forecast an injury I won’t include Beltran’s $18 mil but aside from him they spent a collective $38 mil this year on Bay (incl signing bonus), Castillo, Perez and Fancouer. That’s a lot of money on signings that most people thought were poor choices from the get go. Bay’s drop off couldn’t have been expected so rapidly though. If every team were allowed one exception to the steroid rule it would be him.
The one negative aspect of playing in NY is that you almost always will be in competition with the other team for the headlines and positive affection. The Yanks had to suffer thru it during the 80’s when the Mets were great and now the Mets have had to endure it for quite a while. Even when the Mets were good they still had to stand in the Yanks shadow. This has caused them to attempt to make big splashes to answer what the Yanks do and even worse to satisfy their own critics (namely Madden, Lupica and the rest of the NY media). People killed them in the press because they were losing games in the 8th and 9th innings so what did they do? They signed K-Rod. The player himself was a good signing but because they were in such a rush to insure they got him they wildly overpayed. This Met team, as it is currently constructed NEEDS another top of the line starter but they are WAYYYYYYYYY more than a starting pitcher away from being a serious contender. Problem is that other than Lee there won’t be another top starting pitcher on the FA market as the 2012 class boasts Mark Buehlre, Wandy Rodriguez and Edwin Jackson represents the best of the starters free agent eligible and w/o options. So the Mets have two choices. Start to rebuild or spend wildly and hope that WELL SPENT millions can erase mistakes and fill all the holes they have. Their second problem is that rebuilding is a) difficult to sell to the fan base as they head into their 3rd year in a new stadium and b) the player they most likely want to keep (David Wright turns 28 in Dec) will be wasting his prime years during a rebuilding stage and the player you probably SHOULD get rid of for a true rebuild (Johan Santana) will be too expensive and too past his prime by the time you complete the rebuilding process. Santana turns 32 at the start of 2011.
So if you were the owner what would be your 3rd move (after you fire Minaya and Manuel)? Instruct your new GM to rebuild and collect young players or give him the ability to take the 2011 payroll upwards to about $150-$175 mil?
Being a team in New York, and potentially able to generate the amount of $ close to the Yankees, the answer to your question should be C) All of the above. Like you said, smart spending, though.
Just for the record, Cliff Lee is older than Johan Santana. Which, according to your post, should suggest signing Lee to a 4-5 year deal could be money NOT well spent, rather than the opposite, no?
-ECB
The first question the Mets must ask is “how far away are we from being a good team”. If they answer that question honestly then I would say they are more than 1 good pitcher away. They have questions at SP after Santana and Pelfrey. Dickey had a career year at age 35 (career ERA of 4.79). Can you count on that next year. Neise looks good. Let’s say that Lee and Santana at the front and the rest makes for a good pitching staff. Then what do you do about C? Is Thole the answer? What do you do about your OF? Francouer sucks. You have Pagan who had a good year and then you have a conundrum. You have $40 mil tied up in Beltran, Bay and Francouer who collectively gave you 19 hrs last year. That’s the kind of suck that needs to be addressed. Who know’s what kind of shape and performance Beltran will give you. Bay had an abysmal year with more SB (10) than HRS (6) and has a serious concussion not to mention possible lingering injuries from 2009. Francouer should just be released. And then what about K-Rod? Do they bring him back? Does he want to come back if they void his contract? So IF the Mets were going to spend their way out of it then how do they go about it? I guess they could throw money at Werth to replace Francouer. Maybe they can sign Crawford and move him to CF but I doubt CC would want to do that just to become a Met w/o HUGE SUMS of money. Maybe David DeJesus would sign to play CF since he’s a NY? There’s no one of consequence worth spending money on at closer. W/o any major payroll relief you’re probably looking at another…
$23 mil per for Lee
$12-$15 mil per for Worth
$10-$12 mil per for Crawford or $5 mil for DeJesus
That’s another $40-$50 mil to the payroll and you still have questions at the back of the rotation, 2B (Castillon is still there), C because you’re counting on a rookie, 1B because you’re counting on a 2nd year player and closer (regardless of whether K-Rod does or doesn’t come back). And if you decide to save money on Werth or you can’t get him than can you count on Beltra in RF? So can you have a $150 mil + payroll and still have so many questions?
And if the Mets do NOT feel like they can sufficiently fill the other holes via FA or smart trades that won’t further decimate the farm then why bother to sign Lee who, as you mentioned, is 32 and will improve your team but not, by himself, transform this team into a 95-100 win team?
Lee is 32 and expensive and whoever signs him better have a team in place that is already a contender or legitametly 1 SP away from being one.
I was more trying to defend Johan, but you took in a different direction, so I’ll play along. My $ 0.02 are as follows.
I do think the Mets are a few players away from a team that can contend every year, mainly pitching. Omar has done a decent job drafting, so the future isn’t totally bleak. An outfield of Bay, Beltran, and Pagan is okay with me. You don’t know what you’re getting with Beltran, but he is looking more and more like the player he was, and I feel good about his recovery for next year. Also, you have F-Mart in the wings.
Infield, you’re set with Wright, Reyes, and Davis. Castillo, you live with for one year and forget about him after 2011. Not enough of a sample size on Tejada, so it may be a gut call to keep him up and use Louis as a backup. Then again, I never understood why a team like the Mets is handcuffed by a 6m/y contract. Upgrade 2B either by trade or FA, and let Ruben develop in the minors, while Castillo gets shipped out or takes a seat on the bench. Catcher, I have no idea.
Relief pitching, K-Rod will be closing. I liked what Omar did by giving the entire bullpen a one year deal. Bring back Takahashi, Feliciano of course, and I believe Igarashi was the only signed into 2011. Rest, pick up through FA same way they did in 2010.
Starters, you got Johan and thats it. I don’t consider Pefl a sure thing. This is where they need to spend. Lee would cost a lot, but it may be a necessity that they have backed themselves into. You take the hit for 2011 and overspend on Lee, and the money coming off the books after 2011 from Beltran, Ollie, Castillo K-Rod (hopefully) will even it out for the remaining years of his contract. Third starter will be Pelf, fourth can be Meija (?), and I would bring back Dickey for the 5th spot. Or there’s always taking a chance on a Webb or someone else looking to make a comeback after an injury year.
So, yeah, my plan isn’t conventional, but I feel like they need to spend big on pitching this offseason and take a hit for 2011 financially – let the payroll bloat, and then have it deflate after the bad contracts expire after 2011.
I think you’re forgetting Niese. Personally, I have more faith in him, than i do Pelfrey.
You’re right, I am. In that case, slot Niese in the third spot, move Pelf to fourth, and still sign Dickey as fifth, keeping Meija in the minors to stretch him out for a starting role in the future, preferably in 2012.
I’m gonna just throw some numbers out and then check and see how close they are to true:
NYY: 205
BOS: 170
CHC: 150
PHI: 140
NYM: 130
Here’s actual numbers:
NYY: 206
BOS: 162
CHC: 146
PHI: 141
NYM: 132
Welp, you were right about them being in the top-5, and I was pretty damn close on this idiotic game I felt like playing.
Most likely you’re not from NY.The words smart and Mets ownership should never be used in the same sentence. Perez, Maine, Castillo, Cora, Putz, Beltran, Murphy, and Rodriguez are just some of the reasons why.
Seriously, making a splash with FA signings doesn’t ensure anything, just look at their crosstown rivals’ history. The Yankees signed the likes of Mussina, Giambi, Brown A-Rod,Johnson, Lofton and went nine years without winning the big one. The Mets do make big signings, but only a few and don’t have or aquire the complementry players to help out. Santana, Bay and a bunch of secondary parts to go along with wright and Reyes.And when they make a mistake on a player, instead of cutting their loses, they keep him around, so’s to not admit their error and not lose money. Met ownership has tied the hands of Minaya and focused on marketing a losing team and saving money. Forget any illusions about a quick rebuilding.
How could you put Beltran in that group of players? If the Mets never signed him, fans would be complaining how we never made him an offer. Just how they are about Manny before he signed with the Red Sox and Vlad G. and A-Rod. How quickly fans forget the numbers he’s put up prior to this injury.
Now that i look at your list. Why is Murphy even on that list? He’s making league minimum.
My issue is not with Beltran per se as much as it is with Mets management. Beltran has it in his contract that the Mets will not offer Arb after its done. They overpaid to begin with. The Yankees had turned down his contract demands, so Beltran had no real takers. I can understand that they wanted him badly, but you should gotten something in return at the end of the contract. They didn’t.That’s not smart. As far as Murphy goes, they touted this guy as a rising star, moved him around to find a position for him and came up bust. I know he’s hurt and I wish him a full recovery,but they miscalculated with this guy.
Here’s the thing with Beltran, even if we were allowed to offer Arbitration, would you offer him arbitration anyway? I doubt they offer him arbitration after he just came off a season making around 18 million and has bad knees. So I dunno why thats even an issue. The thing with having Scott Boras as your agent, SOMEONE overpays for his clients. The Cardinals overpaid for Matt Holliday and no one else was bidding.
I don’t blame the Mets organization for this Murphy fascination. I blame that on A LOT of Mets fans comparing him to every hall-of famer they can think of. I heard and read more hype about Murphy from the fans, than I did from the organization itself. Saying he’ll be an All-Star 1B, he plays gold glove defense, comparing him to TED WILLIAMS. All the Mets did was say at the beginning of LAST season, he’ll be their 1B of the future. Did anyone really expect Ike Davis to start at A+ in ’09 and end up playing at the Major League level in early 2010?
Nothing against you, but I just dont get some of you. You complain your team didnt pursue a guy at all costs, such as a Beltran, Texiera, Manny and Sabathia. But then you gripe and complain when you get the guy and say they are overpaid. When you dont get them, you fault the organization for not trying harder. I wonder where all those Mets fans are, that were destroying Omar for not giving Zito the deal he wanted years ago. Or Jason Schmidt. But we harping on Castillo and Ollie. Every team has contracts they regret. Just like nearly every boss has workers he wishes he could get rid of.
the mets keep trying to be like the yankees and sign a big free agent every offseason and pay a ton of money for when really they are not that good e.g. bay. they need to stop doing that. i hate the mets and don’t want to help them in any way but this is my opinion.
The Mets are a .500 club. Everyone keeps freaking out like they are 25 games under. But in NY with the spotlight on them it seems a lot worse. Can you imagine if the Cubs were in NY?
With their payroll and a decent front office you’d think they should be able to be better in the near future. But as posters above said, going out and getting one free agent every off season isn’t a real plan. Cliff Lee isn’t happening.
Technically, it’s posters below.
??
Unless I screwed something up, the newest posts show up at the top of the post, not the bottom.
I’m starting to think it’s just me.
“I’m starting to think it’s just me.”
In a way it is, chief. Check out the “Sort by” menu below the topic blurb. It lets you display comments by “oldest first,” “newest first,” “best rating,” or “popular now.”
Well I’m be dipped in butter and called a birthday cake.
I never really noticed that, and must’ve hit it on mistake a long time ago.
Thanks. Normally I pick up on this stuff, earlier.
My pleasure….Mr. Cake! 😀
usually it goes oldest to newest unless you change it
Here’s another point. The Yanks got their payroll up to $200 mil by spending and spending to make up for mistakes and in pursuit of #27. However, I think Cashman has realized that you can’t keep doing that year in and year out. While the Yanks have kept acquiring high priced FA they HAVE NOT added more to their already HUGE payroll. They were able to sweep out contracts for Mussina, Abreu, Giambi, Pavano, Farnsworth, etc into Sabathia, Texieria, Burnett and Swisher (via trade). Last year they flipped money saved from Damon, Matsui, Wang and Nady into salary plus prospects put towards Vazquez (via trade), Granderson (via trade) and Nick Johnson. This year, if we are fortunate to sign Cliff Lee, it will be from money hopefully saved by bringing back Jeter and Mo at a slightly reduced cost plus not bringing back Vazquez and Nick Johnson. Unfortunate for the Mets they have too much tied up in players that have negative value conracts and are immovable. Mets would be spending more money to replace players still already on the roster. At least the Yanks spending is in a revolving fashion and have mixed in youg and cheap players when they could (Hughes, Gardner, Cervelli, etc)
Can’t believe that nobody has commented on the Pirates article. If the numbers are true that is simply amazing. I’m bookmarking it now.
Every year we get into the whole, “My team (usually a Yankee, Red Sox, Met, Cub fan) simply wants to win more than your team (KC, Florida, Pittsburgh) that’s why we spend so much” argument. I hope people can see how much true imbalance there is in baseball. If the Pirates can only spend $50m in payroll JUST TO BREAK EVEN, how can they compete with teams spending 3 or 4 times more and still makes tons of profit?
Cap and Floor. It has to happen. It’s the only way for true equity in baseball.
Don’t believe the Hype. All these teams have creative accountants and bookkeeping methods. Notice how all these teams that lose money for years never go belly up? As soon they’re for sale, you have someone willing to pony up a record amount for the team. Name a team that has lost value in the last twenty years?
Baseball has actually had more equality than other sports.
Years taken to have 8 teams win
MLB and NHL-9 years
NFL-10 years
NBA-30 years
Cap and floor really kept the NBA create equality.
10 bucks says the Phillies trade Hamels and Blanton then sign Cliff Lee. Seems like the most idiotic thing to do and they do a lot of idiotic things in the 1st place.
Also the Mets dont need to go after Lee. He is already 32 and the last thing they need to do is be paying him and Johan while they are declining.
They should look into a guy coming back from injury with tremendous upside. Harden, Webb, and Bedard all fit the profile and could be serviceable.
Oswalt would have really been a great pickup for them. Maybe they can work out something for one of Tampa Bay’s starters
Hey BJ:
A couple of items from the link:
“The Pirates made $5.4 million in profit in 2009, owner Bob Nutting said today, after two years of much greater profits and a complex distribution of $20,443,000 to the team’s ownership group two years ago”.
and
“The Pirates’ exact profit – or net income — for last season was $5,409,087.
The profit for 2007 was $15,008,032, and the profit for 2008 was $14,408,249”.
First and foremost baseball is a business and owners have a right to make a profit.
However…..the Pirates just got thru extending their record for most consecutive losing seasons to an amazing 18 seasons. That is the longest suck-fest-a-thon in NORTH AMERICAN SPORTS. They beat the Canucks and Sacramento/Kings who had 15 and the Tampa Bay Bucs who had 14 seasons of losing. They beat all other teams by a wide margin. The fact that they turned a “modest” profit of $5 mil this year is amazing in and of itself. The fact that they made profits of $10 and $15 mil+ years prior is mind-boggling…..or is it? The fans of Pittsburg are NOT the fans of the Tampa Bay Rays and the FLorida Marlins who don’t support even when the team is winning. They are fans who are reminded of the not so distant past when the Pirates were a proud franchize and winner sor WS in the mid to late 70’s and comeptitve throughout the 80’s. Success at the box office is most often attached to the success ON THE FIELD and yet, despite a highly inferior product fans have obviously shown up enough to help turn a profit.
Why have the Pirates front office failed to field a decent teams? Because they refused to retain their better players and have done an inferior job of drafting players despite having a 1st rnd pick EVERY YEAR DURING THEIR 18 years of losing. It’s not the major market teams fault that they have used those 1st rnd picks to draft Jon Farrel, Charles Peterson, Mark Farris, Chad Hermansen, , Kris Benson, JJ Davis, CLint Johnson, Bobby Bradley, Scott Burnett, Jon Van Benschotten and Bryan Burlington. It’s not anyone elses fault they turned Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, Nate McLouth, Adam LARouche, Jose Bautista, Jason Schmidt, Sean Casey, Aramis Ramirez and Jason Kendall for a rather modest return that had little impact on improving the team. The fact that the “poor little rich millionaires” ONLY made a $5 mil profit does little to garner any sympathy and certainly not should be used for them to say “Hey we ONLY made $5 mil so please stop demonizing us for not spending more on better players to improve the team”. Certainly that shouldn’t be said to a city of fans in a economically depressed city such as Pittsburgh.
As for the idea of a salary cap/salary floor I’m cool with that thought. Even at a cap of a $150 mil the Yanks, Sox and others are going to find ways to survive and thrive in the market. It may mean we won’t have an all-star at every positiong but it certainly won’t mean a return to the late 60’s for the Yanks. However, are other teams….the Marlins, Rays and Pirates of the world going to be able to meet the salary floor and will they be able to draw enough fans to turn a profit and remain viable? That is the question. Maybe if the Pirates didn’t just finish their 18th consecutive failed season then maybe those fans would come out more thus creating a higher profit for the owners who in turn, we hope, would reinvest that profit into their team. Seeing as how they made a point of noting they turned a combined profit of $30 mil in 2008 and 2009 but continued to slash payroll I doubt reinvestment was high on their list of things to do. What was their annual payroll in 2008 and 2009? About $48 mil. What was their annual payroll average from 2000-2007? $42 mil. Their average attendance was higher from 2002 (2nd year in PNC) thru 2007. Therefor, more than likely, they’ve enjoyed profits somewhere in excess of $20 mil per year for a while. Why should anyone feel bad for the owners and why should ownership feel vindacated for turning a profit, albeit a “meager” $5 mil, while the fans suffer thru perpetual ineptness on the field and in the front office? How does this make a case for the Pirates or be a shinging example for a salary cap? The Reds, Brewers, Twins, Rays, Marlins and Indians are other small market teams that have found ways to post .500 + winning seasons despite similar small market teams.
“ONLY” 5 million dollars my ass. If anyone is going to play the poor poor me game, it’s going to be us the fans. We suffered through eighteen, yes eighteen, STRAIGHT losing seasons, it’s a wonder how they even get attendance. Pirates attendance > Marlins attendance, although the Marlins have a record over .500, and the Pirates have lost 80-odd games so far. I believe that the cap should be set lower than 150 million. The salaries of some of these players is ridiculous. Roger Clemens was destined to make 16 million dollars AFTER he was traded to the Phillies. On the Pirates’ side here, they ARE 100 million dollars in debt, according to the Nuttings. Do I smell bullshit? Oh wait, we’re talking about the Pirates. I’m just automatically going to say yes.
Honestly, just sell the goddamn team to Lemieux and Burkle. They have much more money and they know how to win.
BTW……ummmm…..I do have a life. I know that previous post was my 4th or 5th multi paragraphed post today but I swear I do have a life. My wide and kids are sleeping over at her mom’s and I have the house to myself. Could I find more constructive things to do? Sure, but this actually entertains me and when it’s nice a quiet isn’t baseball talk a nice way to kill time?
Ha ha, absolutely…and it is also a great way to just celebrate life! 🙂
I LOL’d.
After this year:
Francoeur is gone ($5m), Kelvim Escobar is gone ($1.25m)
Beltran has 1 year left ($18.5m),
Oliver Perez has 1 year ($12.5m),
K-Rod has only year left ($11.5m+$3.5m), unless they manage to void his contract,
Castillo, 1 year ($6m)
Unfortunately, Santana has 3 years ($72m) left, as does Jason Bay ($48m).
Is anyone else intrigued by Yunesky Maya?
I want to see how his talent translate to the bigs. He isn’t a hard thrower, he is more like Livan Hernandez (when he first came up with Fla…not todays Livan).