The Rangers realize that it won't be easy or cheap to keep Cliff Lee in Texas, but they're prepared to spend big on the lefty once he hits free agency. Rangers owner Chuck Greenberg insists his club is not "going into it with a peashooter" and says he's prepared to bid against any other teams that covet Lee.
"We can't control what the Yankees or any other club chooses to offer," Greenberg told reporters, including Ed Price of AOL FanHouse. "We know that we're going to have to be aggressive financially. We're prepared to do that. But we've also got things to offer from a lifestyle standpoint."
Lee's Arkansas home isn't far from Arlington, and he recently told Jon Heyman of SI.com that he has enjoyed pitching for the Rangers. The feeling is mutual, especially now that Lee has dominated for three consecutive postseason starts. After Lee defeated the Yankees, Greenberg told Heyman he knows the left-hander is on the brink of a massive deal.
"He's going to make a tremendous amount of money," Greenberg said. "I hope he makes it with us."
The longer the Rangers stay in the playoffs, the better their chances are of signing Lee, according to Greenberg. Interestingly enough, Heyman reports that the Rangers offered another lefty – Derek Holland – to the Mariners for Lee before they accepted a package based around Justin Smoak.
it has been reported on numerous sources, that whoever bids the most will get lee… i doubt his home being in arkansas means a thing. the dude can buy a space ship in a couple months…
I think we’re all too cynical nowadays in thinking that a player will always follow the most money.
How do we know that Lee isn’t the kind of guy who values being closer to home on a team that he’s already comfortable with?
I think we’re all too cynical nowadays in thinking that a player will always follow the most money.
How do we know that Lee isn’t the kind of guy who values being closer to home on a team that he’s already comfortable with?
You may be right….but in Lee’s case, I think it’s all about the money. He’s pretty much been hinting at it for over a year now.
Lee is on the wrong side of 30 now. He needs a big deal now as it may be his last. This isn’t 28-year old, durable CC we’re talking about. Lee will be 37 or older when his next deal ends and has been injured 3 out of the last 5 years.
Well, okay, but he’s going to GET a big deal either way. The question is if he’s simply going to accept the biggest deal, in essence that he doesn’t care what team he plays for at all, or if the team making the offer, their location, their playoff chances, and other non-monetary factors matter to him. Or also if something like equal total value but more years is more attractive or less attractive to him.
I get the impression that the trades are wearing on Lee. Obviously, he has put himself in a position where whatever team he chooses can be his last team ever, but one still wonders if “stay with a team I’ve gotten acquainted with” has an appeal over “get acquainted with yet another team” if the money is similar.
wow, you’re obviously NOT a ranger fan. nothing wrong with that, but as a Ranger fan, i have been privy to continuous local coverage and interviews. I dont think he’s even remotely said “i’m going where the money is”. In fact it’s mostly been “i want to play for a winner” and “i want a no-trade clause”. Not to mention that Texas can offer 10% less than the Yankees or in California and it would equate to the same take home pay.
You may be right….but in Lee’s case, I think it’s all about the money. He’s pretty much been hinting at it for over a year now.
Lee is on the wrong side of 30 now. He needs a big deal now as it may be his last. This isn’t 28-year old, durable CC we’re talking about. Lee will be 37 or older when his next deal ends and has been injured 3 out of the last 5 years.
The Yanks are putting a smackdown on C.J. Wilson…
Yea I dont think it matters that he’s from arkansas. He just wants to stop getting traded and top $$$$
Yea I dont think it matters that he’s from arkansas. He just wants to stop getting traded and top $$$$
Why do I feel we will be talking about Lee in a couple of years as one of the worst contracts in Baseball?
I kinda had that feeling a couple months ago when people started speculating on Lee. I think the Yanks can live without him though, they do have a farm, and young pitchers that can translate over, i think we should resign Pettitte tho.
I kinda had that feeling a couple months ago when people started speculating on Lee. I think the Yanks can live without him though, they do have a farm, and young pitchers that can translate over, i think we should resign Pettitte tho.
Because more times than not, players under perform their contracts.
Yeah, maybe because there have been about two 100+ mil contracts that have/look like they’ve worked. IMO Jeter, and Cabrera.
Pujols and Manny worked out as well
Both Pujols and Manny lived up to their 100+million dollar commitments. in Pujol’s case, he damn near doubled the investment.
Don’t remember the age throughout Manny’s contract but they all had it when they were younger. How many 100+ mil contracts given to players ages of 30+ work out?
Don’t remember the age throughout Manny’s contract but they all had it when they were younger. How many 100+ mil contracts given to players ages of 30+ work out?
Both Pujols and Manny lived up to their 100+million dollar commitments. in Pujol’s case, he damn near doubled the investment.
Yeah, maybe because there have been about two 100+ mil contracts that have/look like they’ve worked. IMO Jeter, and Cabrera.
I agree with “strikethree.”
Most long-term player contracts outlast the value of the player. If you don’t sign a guy long term when he’s 27 or under, the last few years of a multi-year deal are usually painful.
Lee’s checkered past has me questioning that too. But it is undeniable that he’s been one of the most formidable pitchers over the last 3 years and has started to amass what could be a potential legendary postseason record.
Oh without a doubt but still, how wise would it be to offer some of these numbers I am seeing, like 23-25 mil a year? For 5 years? He is 31 years old, you certainly cannot expect him to continue this type of dominance as he ages.
I don’t think a 5 year deal will be the one to worry about, rather the potential 7 year deal. A pitcher’s decline is expected to start around age 34-35, so after 2-3 years into his contract starts. However the decline will unlikely to be linear and more likely parabolic. In other words while the next few years might not exactly be his most stellar material, they’ll still be good.
So I’ll end this speech by saying… No clue. A 5 year contract wouldn’t give me too many issues. On the other hand a 7 year contract makes me think the last couple of years will make it look like an albatross.
Because if the Rangers sign him it will be history repeating itself… and they would have learned nothing from the Alex Rodriguez signing. As an Angels fan, I hope the Rangers break the bank to sign a player that only plays once every five days.
pure ignorance on your part John W. A-Rod was signed to a 10-year $252M deal by Tom Hicks, who is NOT a baseball guy, and has recently shown he cant run ANY sports team. He just had his coveted Liverpool Football Club sold out from underneath him. That’s why the Rangers had to go into bankruptcy to begin with.
Cliff Lee is looking more in the 5year $120M range, and while it’s close to the same per year, it’s no where near as long. Cliff Lee will be ADDING to the team that’s already in place here, while A-Rod was brought in to be THE star to build a team around.
Oh, and did i mention that during the 10year $252M deal, A-Rod was the MVP THREE, yes 3, times?
Why do I feel we will be talking about Lee in a couple of years as one of the worst contracts in Baseball?
I don’t blame you, he is getting old but the thing is he relies on command.
I see him having at least 4 good years left, he could live with an 89 mph fastball, this year i saw him hit 95 mph once, and in the post season he hit 94 a few times, so once his command don’t fade ( which i think won’t happen) he will be goood.
I don’t blame you, he is getting old but the thing is he relies on command.
I see him having at least 4 good years left, he could live with an 89 mph fastball, this year i saw him hit 95 mph once, and in the post season he hit 94 a few times, so once his command don’t fade ( which i think won’t happen) he will be goood.
i think Grienke makes more sense to the rangers than Lee. have Derrek Holland and some other pitchers be the centerpiece. It is a lost more cost efficient and not nearly as big of a commitment. Shoot, 2 years of Grienke could end up costing only a few million more than 1year of Lee. Your still giving up talent either way because Lee will cost draft picks(if they re-sign him, they miss out on 2 comp picks, if he walks, you gotta give up talent to get Grienke).
ummm, Lee is WITH the Rangers right now, you dont LOSE picks to a guy that becomes a free agent on your own team. but that being said, you’re kidding yourself if you think the Rangers dont want Grienke, cuz i’d LOVE to have him in my team’s rotation, but after the deals that were made this year, i think we need to stock up just a bit in our prospect department.
ummm, Lee is WITH the Rangers right now, you dont LOSE picks to a guy that becomes a free agent on your own team. but that being said, you’re kidding yourself if you think the Rangers dont want Grienke, cuz i’d LOVE to have him in my team’s rotation, but after the deals that were made this year, i think we need to stock up just a bit in our prospect department.
i think Grienke makes more sense to the rangers than Lee. have Derrek Holland and some other pitchers be the centerpiece. It is a lost more cost efficient and not nearly as big of a commitment. Shoot, 2 years of Grienke could end up costing only a few million more than 1year of Lee. Your still giving up talent either way because Lee will cost draft picks(if they re-sign him, they miss out on 2 comp picks, if he walks, you gotta give up talent to get Grienke).
i think lee will take the deal with the most years imo after playing on 4 teams in just over a year
i think lee will take the deal with the most years imo after playing on 4 teams in just over a year
remember, lee was a diamond in the rough. until he joined the phillies, he was rarely talked about. just because a pitcher isn’t talked about e.g. greinke, it doesn’t mean he’s not as good as pitchers who are high profile like lee. lee’s only been pitching the past two years in the postseason and he’s being touted as one of the best postseason pitchers of all time. i bet if greinke joined a winning team with good defense, his stats and record would improve immensely.
I didn’t mean to “like” that. If I could only “un-like” it. That isn’t true at all. Are you forgetting that Lee went 22-2 and won the Cy Young in 2008 with The Indians?
For anyone that was actually paying attention to baseball, and not just the big market teams, Lee was most certainely talked about.
It’s kind of difficult to say that he was rarely talked about when he won the AL Cy Young Award while in Cleveland in 2008. He reached 14 wins 5 times in 6 years and had the incredible 22-3 season there in 2008 before going to Philadelphia the following year. Maybe I heard about him often because I live in the Midwest, but he was on the national radar as well.
As far as a pitcher’s record getting better on a better team, of course. But great pitchers find ways to win or at least keep their teams in the game. The Indians went exactly .500 at 81-81 while Lee had the 12th best winning percentage (88%) in baseball history.
It’s kind of difficult to say that he was rarely talked about when he won the AL Cy Young Award while in Cleveland in 2008. He reached 14 wins 5 times in 6 years and had the incredible 22-3 season there in 2008 before going to Philadelphia the following year. Maybe I heard about him often because I live in the Midwest, but he was on the national radar as well.
As far as a pitcher’s record getting better on a better team, of course. But great pitchers find ways to win or at least keep their teams in the game. The Indians went exactly .500 at 81-81 while Lee had the 12th best winning percentage (88%) in baseball history.
Cliff Lee won the Cy Yong the year before going to Philly. I don’t think he’s ever been “rarely talked about,” bur rather, people have doubted his ability to continue playing at a high level into his mid 30s – it’s why the Indians weren’t afraid to trade him, it’s why the Phillies traded him, and it’s why the Mariners only had a couple of teams in on the bidding at the trade deadline.
i mean he’s talked about much more now like every time he starts he makes espn. he became known as a great postseason pitcher just last yr. he didn’t make the cleveland playoff roster in 2007 three yrs ago and he was sent down to the minors earlier that season. he hasn’t exactly had this amazing reputation that he enjoys now.
Yes, I agree it is different now, but he was expected to produce before. He didn’t make the roster in 07 because of an injury, not necessarily b/c of skill.
i mean he’s talked about much more now like every time he starts he makes espn. he became known as a great postseason pitcher just last yr. he didn’t make the cleveland playoff roster in 2007 three yrs ago and he was sent down to the minors earlier that season. he hasn’t exactly had this amazing reputation that he enjoys now.
People ALWAYS question whether someone will be able to play into their mid 30s. Injuries happen. The Rangers chose who they thought was the better player in Joaquin Arias over Robinson Cano. Arias was never the same after an injury.
And no one can explain how Nolan Ryan managed to pitch into his mid 40s. And Ryan NEVER had Cliff Lee’s level of command. Compare Ryan’s 2.04K/BB to Lee’s 3.1K/BB. Will Lee make it to 37 while on the mound? only time will tell
ALWAYS is not true. The Phillies just signed Howard to a massive deal into his mid-30s. Sure, the media has speculated and questioned, but not the Phillies management. Cliff Lee stands out as a special case, because he won a Cy Young award, then was traded th next year. After leading that team (Phillies) in the postseason (with great individual numbers) he was traded again (to Seattle). After posting great numbers there, he was traded a 3rd time in about a year. How often do players with those kind of numbers get tossed around like an under-performing prospect?
People ALWAYS question whether someone will be able to play into their mid 30s. Injuries happen. The Rangers chose who they thought was the better player in Joaquin Arias over Robinson Cano. Arias was never the same after an injury.
And no one can explain how Nolan Ryan managed to pitch into his mid 40s. And Ryan NEVER had Cliff Lee’s level of command. Compare Ryan’s 2.04K/BB to Lee’s 3.1K/BB. Will Lee make it to 37 while on the mound? only time will tell
whatever they offer won’t be close to what the yankees do. the yanks are out for vengeance because the rangers “snaked” lee from them during the summer. they’re gonna pay top dollar for lee..and just because fans want their team to get better doesnt make you a bandwagon fan. that’s an incredible exaggeration.
whatever they offer won’t be close to what the yankees do. the yanks are out for vengeance because the rangers “snaked” lee from them during the summer. they’re gonna pay top dollar for lee..and just because fans want their team to get better doesnt make you a bandwagon fan. that’s an incredible exaggeration.
Just remember, folks. No personal income tax in Texas. Should Lee choose to live in NYC, his city + state income tax would surpass 10%. I’m sure Greenberg and Ryan will remind him of that.
I can’t ever remember hearing of a free agent signing in one place or another because of the tax advantages.
That being said, he would be worth more from an endorsement perspective playing for a team with its own cable network in the biggest market in the country anyways so it is probably a moot point.
LeBron?
Derek Jeter’s “primary” home isn’t even in NYC, it’s in Florida. I don’t think this is a legitimate concern.
you dont pay taxes on what you make from where you live, but from where you get paid. Jeter gets paid in NY so he pays NY taxes. I’m sure Jeter has a place in NYC, and i’m sure that he pays as much to live there as it would cost to buy 5 houses elsewhere
you dont pay taxes on what you make from where you live, but from where you get paid. Jeter gets paid in NY so he pays NY taxes. I’m sure Jeter has a place in NYC, and i’m sure that he pays as much to live there as it would cost to buy 5 houses elsewhere
This is a Rangers post..but of sure enough the Yankees fans find a way to take over the comment section
I’m sick of the Nick Johnsons, Austin Kearns, AJ Burnetts, Lance Berkmans….. CR@P! Even Arod’s deal was a ridiculous case of bidding against themselves… For the mind boggling amount of payroll Cashman has to work with, his moves have generally been horrendous! (I liked the Mussina and ZZ signings)
Enough of the silliness. Cashman, get me Cliff Lee and Adam Dunn (DH) or you’re fired !
As a die-hard, life long Yankees fan, I am very happy to say you wield absolutely no power when it comes to deciding on Cashman’s future. Why get Dunn? No need for a full time DH when a lot of our sluggers are aging and we may need that spot for Montero anyway, though I hope he can find a position.
you,sir, are the reason yankee fans are perceived as such proverbial douches.
“Gemme THIS and BUY me THAT or I’l throw a hissy fit!!” just like a 6 year old
Hey man not all Yankee fans are like this…
Not all. A lot of them are unfortunately. I believe you are a Yankee fan and I don’t see you acting like that which is good… but really, fans like that are annoying.
And now you know why I go on the offensive when anyone starts calling all Red Sox fans idiots. I’ve met several yanks fans who claim to be huge fans but couldn’t name anyone on the team after Mariano and Jeter and I’ve known some who knew the entire history of the leave and just loved the poetry of the game. You’re always going to have that… the ones who love the game and fiercely love their team and the bandwagoners who will leave if the team goes bad.
you,sir, are the reason yankee fans are perceived as such proverbial douches.
“Gemme THIS and BUY me THAT or I’l throw a hissy fit!!” just like a 6 year old
Go ride your bandwagon, man. I hate having to show up a fellow fan, but your bandwagon is ridiculous.
On another note, MOOSE was awsome.
The last line was over the top on purpose.
The rest I meant. For the amount of $$$ he has to work with, Cashman’s moves have generally not been good.
The last line was over the top on purpose.
The rest I meant. For the amount of $$$ he has to work with, Cashman’s moves have generally not been good.
The Rangers are prepared to bid aggressively on Lee. No way! Yeah I wasn’t expecting that. It’s just a matter of how much will the Yankees offer him and of course he’s gonna say he likes pitching for Texas I’m sure CC said the same thing about the Brewers. We’ll find out soon enough. Looks like my Yankees and Rangers will have another battle next month. Ding Ding!
Yeah. I heard a sportswriter once say, “Those free agent sentiments that sound so nice in September and October usually fade in November and December.”
As a Yankee fan i want Cliff Lee…i don’t think they can get past Texas if he is Healthy and they have him…i don’t know how much it will take but if the Yanks have 25 mill a year to spend and they need to go 6 years then i guess he’s worth it…because if he is healthy going into the post season with the Yankee line up…it should be a win…i see it as worth it because he has such great command over his pitches…so even if he loses volocity over the years…he could still be effective like Mussina or Pettitte…as a lefty if you can spot your pitches and change speeds you can be vey effective and that part of his arsenal seems to be cemented in place…so adapting over the end of his contract seems reasonable…the only thing that could ruin the deal is injury…and that’s just the risk of signing big free agents especially pitchers….
As a Yankee fan i want Cliff Lee…i don’t think they can get past Texas if he is Healthy and they have him…i don’t know how much it will take but if the Yanks have 25 mill a year to spend and they need to go 6 years then i guess he’s worth it…because if he is healthy going into the post season with the Yankee line up…it should be a win…i see it as worth it because he has such great command over his pitches…so even if he loses volocity over the years…he could still be effective like Mussina or Pettitte…as a lefty if you can spot your pitches and change speeds you can be vey effective and that part of his arsenal seems to be cemented in place…so adapting over the end of his contract seems reasonable…the only thing that could ruin the deal is injury…and that’s just the risk of signing big free agents especially pitchers….
The bottom lin is if the Yankees WANT Cliff Lee, then they’ll get him.
They wanted Cliff Lee at the trade deadline…what happened?
Rangers if the rangers sign cliff lee they essentially raise their payroll by 30%. their pay roll is at 55 mil now and with Lee he’ll make around 23 mil, maybe more if the yankees drive up the price. So essentially rangers signing lee pretty much means they are going to be financially constricted until lee’s contract ends in 5-6 years. guys like hamilton, cruz ain’t gonna stay cheap forever and they still have to pay for michael young. sounds like the Rangers front office is too high on themselves and lee right now to even bother thinking about their future. Stupid move which may mean the rangers shooting themselves int he foot for the future. (plus they trade away their top prospect to boot)
the new owners have already said the payroll is going to go up, surfacing around $90 million or so. trust me, if lee isn’t in arlington, it’s not because of the lack of funds.
The Rangers might also try to keep Hamilton. They also have a few arbitration eligible guys in the next couple of years, so they can’t give everything to Lee. They might also re-sign other bats, like Vlad or Michael Young.
if you knew the rangers at all you would know Michael Young was locked in a huge contracts years ago..
its the Arbitration of Hamilton,Cruz, and Wilson you have to look at.
it’s not the lack of funds, it’s the question of constricting yourself as a ball club. lee makes 23 mil, that’s still a hefty load for a team who’s current play roll is just double that. Sure they get lee, but that means their pay roll raises to at least 70 ~ 80 mil, leaving them with around 20 mil. That’s not enough to keep all their quality talents like Hamilton, Cruz, Feliz, Andrus who are going to see raises within the next 5 years, not to mention CJ wilson hitting FA soon as well as some other guys. And with lee taking up so much money, they won’t be able to afford to pay everyone, especially if they want to lock hamilton down too. There’s a reason their last huge Fa signing didn’t pan out well (Arod, who they still owe money too by the way). The front office got a bit ahead of themselves. and might be in risk of doing it again.
BigBangBoom… did you account for all the salary that falls off over those 5 years? or just what adds to it? Rich Harden 6.5, Darren Oliver 3 -wont be here in 5 years, Frank Francisco 3.2 – wont be here in 5 years, and Michael Young 16 – contract runs out in 2013, and i dont expect them to re-sign him.
That’s 28.7Million that will be coming off the books, over time… oh i didnt include Vlad, who will make 9 Mil next year. Either way, we will have the means. I expect the end pay roll in the next 3 years to be around $120M as they complete a winning team year in and year out
BigBangBoom… did you account for all the salary that falls off over those 5 years? or just what adds to it? Rich Harden 6.5, Darren Oliver 3 -wont be here in 5 years, Frank Francisco 3.2 – wont be here in 5 years, and Michael Young 16 – contract runs out in 2013, and i dont expect them to re-sign him.
That’s 28.7Million that will be coming off the books, over time… oh i didnt include Vlad, who will make 9 Mil next year. Either way, we will have the means. I expect the end pay roll in the next 3 years to be around $120M as they complete a winning team year in and year out
Feliz and Andrus are going to be locked up before arbitration long enough for payroll to clear like gammaraze says, not to mention payments to arod,catallnato,harden,oliver,fransisco,and eventually youngs huge contract. thats easily 30 mill coming off the books while with the coverage and the boom of the rangers this post season they will have a payroll of 100 mill soon.
they can sign Lee, and sign Hamilton,Cruz,and Wilson back for 2011. its just a matter of after lee do they have ANY money left for people such as a catcher (Molina again?)
That’s the kind of spirit I wanna see if there is ever a game six.
Hmm, interesting logic. So you’d still be saying that if the Rangers beat the Yankees in the postseason?
Wow, good to know that not all Yankee fans are the same with that “If you cant beat em, pay em to join you” attitude. Props to you sir.
Wow, good to know that not all Yankee fans are the same with that “If you cant beat em, pay em to join you” attitude. Props to you sir.
this is what i like seeing…its a shame that about 90% of yankee followers are in fact bandwagoners, which is why i hate them so much. not because of their extreme spending habits, but because of the pseudo-fans.
this is what i like seeing…its a shame that about 90% of yankee followers are in fact bandwagoners, which is why i hate them so much. not because of their extreme spending habits, but because of the pseudo-fans.
I agree. I have no interest in seeing Lee in pinstripes. We don’t need every big free agent. I was also opposed to us getting Burnett and look how that’s worked out. I think the best two moves they’ve made since 2008 was trading for Swisher and signing Sabathia, which was a given because Sabathia reportedly wanted to be in New York, regardless of that 3 year out-clause. I’m happy to have Teixeira, but I never felt like we needed him.
Anyway, I don’t want Lee. Somebody else can have him. Although- think about it this way; if the Yankees did sign Lee, it wouldn’t be because we needed or wanted him, but because we need and want him to not be playing for an opponent.
I agree. I have no interest in seeing Lee in pinstripes. We don’t need every big free agent. I was also opposed to us getting Burnett and look how that’s worked out. I think the best two moves they’ve made since 2008 was trading for Swisher and signing Sabathia, which was a given because Sabathia reportedly wanted to be in New York, regardless of that 3 year out-clause. I’m happy to have Teixeira, but I never felt like we needed him.
Anyway, I don’t want Lee. Somebody else can have him. Although- think about it this way; if the Yankees did sign Lee, it wouldn’t be because we needed or wanted him, but because we need and want him to not be playing for an opponent.
I think this is the first time Ive ever “liked” a pro-Yankees comment, but it’s well deserved.
I feel the same way about Cliff Lee. “If you can’t beat em, keep trying.” It’s the way every fan should feel.
Right now, I’m angry and I don’t want him on the team; two months from now I’ll be asking who’s more of a winner.
Javy Vazquez won’t be resigned, and should Andy Pettitte finally retire, there’s 22million for Cliff Lee. Right now, I hate the guy, but it wouldn’t be smart not to go after him if the money is there.
wow, it’s rare to see such honesty from a Yankee fan. but if the Yankee’s do pick him up, you’ll still cheer for him, right? i mean that’s your duty as a true fan.
Well it would be a good story for baseball and the rangers, but as a yankee fan i love to see my team improve, and having Lee would greatly improve my team.
Well it would be a good story for baseball and the rangers, but as a yankee fan i love to see my team improve, and having Lee would greatly improve my team.
Funny – I thought “buy this, buy that” was the Yankees’ epigram. You rather have CC on your team than Lee? Give me a break. Let’s not forget your prized stars (CC – and using the term loosely for AJ) – “buy this” is what got you that bought ring last year…
Funny – I thought “buy this, buy that” was the Yankees’ epigram. You rather have CC on your team than Lee? Give me a break. Let’s not forget your prized stars (CC – and using the term loosely for AJ) – “buy this” is what got you that bought ring last year…
I’m talking specifically about Cashman’s moves. They haven’t been very good overall…
I’m a Yankee fan, but personally I think there should be a CAP (at the top and bottom) so that one team can not outspend others so dramatically. And given the HUGE amount of $$$ he has to work with compared to others, 1 WS in ten years is not overly impressive. I am much more impressed with a team like Tampa.
In regard to a “bought ring,” name me the team that has won a championship lately and did it without significant free agents.
2002 Anaheim, 2003 Florida, 2004 Boston, 2006 St Louis, 2008 Philadelphia
That enough for you?
yea, i never knew manny ramirez was in the red sox farm system… 😛
Some nice choices:The 2002 Angels were mostly homegrown and trade guys; free agents a non factor.
The Marlins of 2003 were largely thought of as being led to the title by Ivan Rodriguez, but outside of him, they only had a couple of free agents with playing time.Philadelphia in 2008 had Moyer, J.C. Romero and Pedro Feliz playing important roles, but their roles were not keystone roles.Some weird choices:Boston of 2004?Manny RamirezDavid OrtizJohnny DamonKeith FoulkeBill MuellerSt. Lous of 2006?Chris CarpenterJeff SuppanJason IsringhausenBraden LooperDavid EcksteinJuan Encarnacion
The meaning behind my post, and how i interpreted the 2 posts before mine. Was that before the 2009 season NY brought in CC, Teixiera, and Burnett.
None of the teams I mentioned in my post brought in anything close to a big name Free Agent. The team that they won with was the team that was already there. The only real exception is Boston who did trade for Curt Schilling and Keith Foulke before the 2004 season. But thats not what the question was.
Those 5 teams I mentioned were all teams that did not make a significant addition through free agency the year they won the world series unless you consider Sidney Ponson or Pedro Feliz significant.
Cashman doesn’t post a solid ERA in the regular season and then post a 8.00 ERA in the playoffs. Neither does he hit .275 and 200 hrs in the regular season and then punk out and hit a collective .200 in the post season as they have in some of those series in 2002-2007. A GM’s job is to put a team on the field capable of winning. An avg of 97 wins per season from 2002-2008 is pretty damn good and he has 5 AL East pennants to show for it during those non-WS winning year. Players have to do their jobs.
In response to those 2. Yes ManRam was a big FA signing but not in the year that they won the WS. David Ortiz was signed a couple of seasons before and it was barely more than a minor league deal at 1yr/1.25M. Johnny Damon like Manny was not signed in 04 he was signed in 01. Keith Foulke was acquired in a trade, and Bill Mueller was hardly thought of as a big signing at 2/4.5M.
As far as STL goes. Chris Carpenter was brought in in 03 as an injury reclamation project. Jeff Suppan did not sign his current overinflated contract til 07, In 06 he was on an option year from a 2yr deal signed in 04.
Izzy signed his deal in 02 and in 2006 he blew 10 saves before not even pitching in the playoffs. That is where Adam Wainwright broke out remember?
Braden Looper? Seriously youre going to use Braden Looper in this argument. The only way he was a “big” FA is the contract that he signed.
Ecksteins deal was hardly earth shattering just 3/10M granted he outperformed that contract so i might give you that one but he signed his deal in 05.
Encarnacion signed a 3yr/15M deal but he was in no way a key part of that team with Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Eckstein, and Carpenter. You could even argue that Chris Duncan was better at the plate than he was.
And while the Marlins were thought of as led there by Pudge it was much more about the 2 guys at the top of the order Pierre and Castillo and Derrek Lee and Mike Lowell in the middle of the order along with their pitching staff of Willis, Beckett, Redman, Penny and Pavano
In response to those 2. Yes ManRam was a big FA signing but not in the year that they won the WS. David Ortiz was signed a couple of seasons before and it was barely more than a minor league deal at 1yr/1.25M. Johnny Damon like Manny was not signed in 04 he was signed in 01. Keith Foulke was acquired in a trade, and Bill Mueller was hardly thought of as a big signing at 2/4.5M.
As far as STL goes. Chris Carpenter was brought in in 03 as an injury reclamation project. Jeff Suppan did not sign his current overinflated contract til 07, In 06 he was on an option year from a 2yr deal signed in 04.
Izzy signed his deal in 02 and in 2006 he blew 10 saves before not even pitching in the playoffs. That is where Adam Wainwright broke out remember?
Braden Looper? Seriously youre going to use Braden Looper in this argument. The only way he was a “big” FA is the contract that he signed.
Ecksteins deal was hardly earth shattering just 3/10M granted he outperformed that contract so i might give you that one but he signed his deal in 05.
Encarnacion signed a 3yr/15M deal but he was in no way a key part of that team with Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Eckstein, and Carpenter. You could even argue that Chris Duncan was better at the plate than he was.
And while the Marlins were thought of as led there by Pudge it was much more about the 2 guys at the top of the order Pierre and Castillo and Derrek Lee and Mike Lowell in the middle of the order along with their pitching staff of Willis, Beckett, Redman, Penny and Pavano
You can create whatever criteria you like, but I don’t have to go along with it. That’s the nature of opposing points of view in a discussion that’s not moderated to the point of a set criteria.
So for my money, a free agent is a bought player. If it’s unlikely that you make the playoffs without them, they’re a key member of the team. I believe that’s a fair criteria for whether or not you’ve purchased players who help you win.
Some teams purchase from the top, some purchase from the bottom, others concentrate on the middle. Whatever salary range you’re buying from, buying is buying. Good purchases help you win, bad purchases don’t.
If you’re going to make a big deal about the Yankees buying, you have to make a big deal about others buying as well. Otherwise, I don’t believe the comparison is fair.
Also, I don’t see how it matters in what year you buy players. If the Yankees got one FA a year for five years, that’s no less a bought team as if they got them all in one year. You’re trying to support the Red Sox as not bought because they got key parts of their 2004 team one at time. I don’t see it that way.
As for Keith Foulke, I’m going by Baseball-Reference which tells me:
====================
December 3, 2002: Traded by the Chicago White Sox with Mark Johnson, Joe Valentine and cash to the Oakland Athletics for players to be named later and Billy Koch. The Oakland Athletics sent Neal Cotts (December 16, 2002) and Daylon Holt (minors) (December 16, 2002) to the Chicago White Sox to complete the trade.
October 27, 2003: Granted Free Agency.
January 7, 2004: Signed as a Free Agent with the Boston Red Sox.
====================
If B-R is missing something, please share it.
Otherwise, we should probably end this, because we don’t agree on methodology and there’s little point going forward without agreeing on that first.
You can create whatever criteria you like, but I don’t have to go along with it. That’s the nature of opposing points of view in a discussion that’s not moderated to the point of a set criteria.
So for my money, a free agent is a bought player. If it’s unlikely that you make the playoffs without them, they’re a key member of the team. I believe that’s a fair criteria for whether or not you’ve purchased players who help you win.
Some teams purchase from the top, some purchase from the bottom, others concentrate on the middle. Whatever salary range you’re buying from, buying is buying. Good purchases help you win, bad purchases don’t.
If you’re going to make a big deal about the Yankees buying, you have to make a big deal about others buying as well. Otherwise, I don’t believe the comparison is fair.
Also, I don’t see how it matters in what year you buy players. If the Yankees got one FA a year for five years, that’s no less a bought team as if they got them all in one year. You’re trying to support the Red Sox as not bought because they got key parts of their 2004 team one at time. I don’t see it that way.
As for Keith Foulke, I’m going by Baseball-Reference which tells me:
====================
December 3, 2002: Traded by the Chicago White Sox with Mark Johnson, Joe Valentine and cash to the Oakland Athletics for players to be named later and Billy Koch. The Oakland Athletics sent Neal Cotts (December 16, 2002) and Daylon Holt (minors) (December 16, 2002) to the Chicago White Sox to complete the trade.
October 27, 2003: Granted Free Agency.
January 7, 2004: Signed as a Free Agent with the Boston Red Sox.
====================
If B-R is missing something, please share it.
Otherwise, we should probably end this, because we don’t agree on methodology and there’s little point going forward without agreeing on that first.