The Angels have made Carl Crawford their primary free agent target and are prepared to spend $100MM or more on him, according to Bill Shaikin of the LA Times. The Halos will also monitor the market for Cliff Lee, but they don’t expect to become finalists for the left-hander.
Torii Hunter, who speaks to Crawford regularly, predicts the Red Sox and Angels will be finalists for the left fielder’s services. Hunter expects Angels owner Arte Moreno to visit Crawford in person and he hopes the trip is a success. “We need Carl Crawford," Hunter said. "Put it like that."
Ooooo yea!
Please Theo!!! Crawford is so much better than Werth!
I don´t think so, if I were Theo, I would prefer Werth, he´s a legit #3 #4 #5 in any lineup, on the other hand, Crawford is a leadoff hitter or second, not very different than Ellsbury
Crawford is much better than Ellsbury. His power has been improving also. Crawford said himself that he did not want to be a leadoff hitter anymore. Only problem with Crawford on the Sox is that he is another lefty. But look at Werth, he’s had two good seasons. How many has Crawford had? I’ll take speed over power any day.
you have to consider this, crawford has played his entire career on turf….so that speed you value soo much in crawford is going to end very fast, I’m not saying soon but in the next few years he is going to be a less than average baserunner, granted werth has had 2-3 good years in a long career. As a gm i would take both but not for very long term deals
Less than average? He is probably top 5 right now. I don’t see him falling that fast.
His baserunning would have been hurting already due to all the games on turf if it was going to. If he leaves he’s only extending his career.
2007 Aaron Rowand (contract year in Philly) – 27 hr 89 rbi, .309 avg, .889 ops
2010 Jayson Werth (contract year in Philly) – 27 hr 85 rbi, .296 avg, .921 ops
As a Giants fan I know how the Rowand situation has played out, signing Werth could be scary…
I think you are exactly right, but at least Rowand showed more than just 1 sample season. Werth’s stats this season are really decieving.
if we need to break it down even more, Rowand 2007- 45 2b’s, 105 runs. Werth 2010- 46 2b’s, 106 runs. it’s scary how close there stats are. I really wanted the Giants to pursue Werth but they’ve been down that road.
Do you know what you are saying? Rowand’s 07 was the only time he had come near that kind of production, while Werth has done it when healthy throughout his career and now for the last 3 in a row. Sure Werth could suffer by moving out of Philly and into a pitcher’s park, but your point about Rowand showing more than one sample, and Werth’s stats being deceiving, it’s just not there.
Fenway Park is not a pitchers park
I never said it was. If anything Werth’s numbers might increase if he went to the Sox.
Well I thought you were specifically referring to Fenway when you said “Werth could suffer by moving out of Philly and into a pitcher’s park”. Sorry for the mix up then.
The people I see here comparing Werth and Rowand don’t know much about either player.
I am seriously starting to think that Werth is the next Aaron Rowand. He is really overrated in my opinion because after one really good season, and then another where he did nothing with runners in scoring position, you can’t really expect him to dominate with all 5 tools for a 3-5 year span (no pun intended).
Werth has been well above average since breaking out in 2007. Rowand had two good seasons in a sea of mediocrity. Will Werth get too many years/dollars? Probably, but that isn’t uncommon and doesn’t make him the next Rowand.
Werth
2007-.298/.404/.459, 8 hr, 49 rbi in 94 games
2008-.273/.363/.498, 24 hr, 67 rbi in 134 games
2009- .268/.373/.506, 36 hr, 99 rbi in 159 games
2010-.296/.388/.532, 27 hr, 85 rbi in 156 games
two good years
False, RBI’s are a worthless statistic. In the the year he only hit 8 homeruns he was still getting on base at a massive clip, .400+ OBP. In 2008, more homers, lower batting avg, but he stole 20 bases and only was caught once. He’s been well above average since 2007.
false, runs and rbis are the only stats that should be looked at, nothing else matters. getting hits when they count, and scoring. that’s how a team wins ball games. Werth has a career .260 avg risp, .239 two out risp. he has had two good years scoring runs. Crawford is a better option, that is the point of this.
Let’s say that a play bats .400, hits 50 homeruns, and plays in all 162 games but only has 50 rbi and 50 runs all while in the middle of the lineup of some insanely horrible team. Is he a horrible player?
Edit: I more meant some team that essentially struck out every at bat except for this amazing player. He only does great things with no pitches to hit (as an amazing player with not protection get)
what if unicorns and leperchauns were real?
then pigs would fly
Wait….They Aren’t? ='[
is there a stat for runs created? that would be the ultimate stat
Believe so
it would mean his avg/risp would be 0
then thats not his fault because he must have 2 players hitting in front of him with OBP of around .004, because even at a reasonable rate of like .310 the law of math would state that the 3 players hitting in front of him would have gotten on base 558 times, which between the three of them would equal out to about 3.5 times per game for the three combined….SO with that being said the law of averages would dictate that at some point he would get a hit/HR with one of the runners on base….im sorry, but that example was terrible
EDIT: lol this is my wifes yahoo name, i didnt realize she was still in
HA
Wow
HHAHAHAHHAAH
Well then, what if one team gets men on base at a rate much higher than the other team, wouldn’t they still win even if they hit lower with men in scoring position? Also can you please articulate the difference in skill set required to get a regular hit as apposed to a hit with risp? Perhaps you could draw from your playing experience.
I don’t suppose you would care that Werth was good with risp in previous years, or that rbis are dictated by how well your team puts men on and pure simple luck. Crawford may be a better option than Werth, but it is not for the laughable reasons you are listing.
LOL You just described the 2010 Yankees.
That formula translates well over 162 games, but if you don’t hit w/ RISP in the playoffs, you won’t win.
And that’s exactly what happened to the Yankees against the Rangers, and that’s also what happened to the Rangers against the Giants.
werth risp 08-10, .274, .279, .186. which ever team signs werth, are they signing him to be a table setter? or a run producer? on getting a hit when it counts, it’s called beating a pitcher when he is trying his hardest to beat you. werth prayed on avg to below avg pitching, worth noting that a lot of werth’s production came when the phillies were up by 4+ runs.
Sorry u still don’t know what ur saying. MLB pitchers try their hardest to get MLB batters out at all times, they are professionals. Think about it, why would a pitcher try harder to prevent a hit with men on then with men not on? If he allows a double or homer with no men on, he is still allowing runs to score. It’s not as if the pitchers turn into super pitchers when they have men on base. In fact some get worse as they have to throw out of the stretch. U also claim Werth prays on the bad pitchers….but then wasn’t Werth one of the Phillies best hitters in the post season when the competition can hardly be considered average? He has hit .268 .379 .611 in the post season for his career.
Here is what you need to understand. Production is production, and that’s final. If the sum of a player’s offense is great, it doesn’t matter if it occurs in the 1st or 9th, with no outs or two outs, with men on or off, because a run is a run, and if they are coming more frequently in one situation over another, that is just random luck. You can limit a batters abs versus left handers or right handers, but you can’t control any of the other small sample sized splits. It is like looking at a players stats in games that are lost(always bad) and determining the player is bad.
Look closer at Werth’s small sampled sized splits and you will see what I mean.
With the bases empty he hit .328 .399 .595 in 348 PAs that is elite production and the PAs account for over half of his season so right off the bat, half of the time Werth was amazing. Lets look at the other half.
With men on second base only he hit .139 .326 .139 in 46 PAs
with men on third only he hit .111 .368 .222 in 19 PAs
with runners on second and third he hit .143 .333 .143 in 18 PAs
with runners at first and third he hit .056 .192 .111 in 26 PAs
So in 109 PAs, a small sample size, Werth struggled to make contact, just 9 hits 2 of which were doubles none homers, for 18 RBIs. He did continue to walk though, drawing 24 walks in these situations, keeping the big innings going and allowing the rest of his team to drive in more runs. The sample size in these situations is so small that luck likely played a huge factor, he was 9 for 85 but if just a handful of more hits drop in, Werth’s line would not look nearly as bad. It seems as though you are making a judgment over the absence of 10 or 11 hits.
Now for the rest of Werth’s season.
With men on first only Werth hit .350 .412 .641 in 114 plate appearances.
With the bases loaded he hit .308 .412 .462 in 17 PAs
As you can see Werth was elite in these situations. I doubt you are capable of thinking it it not worth while to hit with men on first or the bases loaded, so I will not argue that point. What I will argue is that Werth was elite in 348 PAs with empty bases, and elite in 131 combined PAs with men on first and the bases loaded. He still got on base but failed to deliver many hits in his remaining 109 PAs with RISP.
Yes Werth would have driven in more runs had he done better with “RISP”, but that in no way discounts what he did offensively overall.
Even if you are not convinced, I hope you and all RISP/RBI/Wins/Saves lovers can one day learn to understand true player evaluation.
Joe Morgan couldn’t have said it better himself.
Please stop… you know nothing about baseball.
Yeah, who would want a player who has increased his SLG and OPS every year for the past 4 years, and has been worth about 5 WAR every year the past 3 years and is a pretty good defender in RF?
this started as a werth or crawford debate. werth is obviously a really nice second option.
In 2008 he didnt start, he was platooning with Jenkins most of the year expect maybe the last 2 months. he came in most of those games at the end for a defensive replacement.
I’m a huge Ellsbury fan, but Crawford is not very different from Ellsbury? Who are you watching? Crawford has the ability to hit the ball much harder than Ellsbury does. That alone makes them very different.
Have you watched both of them play?? They are completely different players…Crawford has power, Ellsbury does not. Ellsbury is more of a slap hitter, Crawford hits line drives. Werth has 2 good years before that he hasnt done anything and hes like 31??
I can assure anyone that you’re only saying that because you’re a Red Sox fan. Come on man, Crawford >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ellsbury by a long shot. I’m not saying Ellsbury isn’t good, but he is no Carl Crawford
What?? I am a Red Sox fan but I was implying Crawford is better than Ellsbury…I think you meant to respond to yazpik.
Oh my, I did, sorry about that man.
Crawford, Dunn, Martinez 2 Tigers!!!
I know some may disagree but if Cliff Lee doesn’t return to Texas, the AL WEst is wide open. Josh Hamilton had a season well above his career norms, they caught lightening in a bottle with Vladdy…THey would need a lot to happen to repeat as AL West champs let alone AL champs. That being said, if they do re-sign Lee I think they remain a favorite for a repeat
They also had down/injury filled seasons from 2 allstars: Nelson Cruz and Ian kinsler.
What about the young players on the rise? For example, somebody like Elvis Andruws is fast becoming a star short stop. Suppose several players do regress, they sure seem to have the depth by which others may fill that gap. Furthermore, the Rangers more or less won the west without Lee this year. If they lose out on Lee, they could still pursue another starter who would improve on the rotation they did win the division with.
Agreed…they have a highly rated farm system…and they can upgrade offensively at catcher by picking up John Buck or Victor Martinez and they can go after Carl Pavano or trade for someone like Jeremey Guthrie ect…they will not blow hitters away but they should go 7 innings 3 runs and with a offense like the Rangers have they can win alot of games with one of them.
The anqels should siqn crawford 6/110 and siqn soriano and try to trade for david wriqht and dan uqqla but i dnt think its possible for them to trade for wriqht
Why not trade for Joe Mauer and Felix Hernandez while they’re at it? Angels could use a catcher and another solid SP.
i see what you did there
Don’t forget about Al Pujols and Tulo, then you’d have a solid infield, put Kendry at DH
and Corky Miller, Sal Fasano, and Babe Ruth, and Bernard Gilkey.
barry lamar still hasn’t retired…
i like that
What about Howie Kendrick?
trade howie for Al, and cezar for tulo, easy math.
You could trade for Wright as long as the package starts with Trout.
They will probaly haveto offer trout recklinq and 2 more prospects
should be first ballot HOF, career numbers- .320/.383/.563, 436 HR, 1433 RBI, 1268 runs, two 30/30 season, mvp
make it happen arte get crawford, soriano and a third base man
Angels are getting Crawford. Boston will get Werth. Yankees Get Lee. Tigers will get Vmart and wishfully thinking Dunn.
tigers should try signing crawford instead of dunn, i dont trust dunn in the future. plus jackson and crawford in the outfield and in the top of the lineup would be amazing and would create more SB’s for the Tigers
I don’t like the idea of both Dunn and Martinez. I like both players, but V-Mart will need to spend around 40% as a DH to keep his bat in the lineup at all times. That means Dunn has to be in the OF for 40% of the time.
One thing I like about Dunn is that he isn’t a good defensive player by any means, but he can still play 1B or RF if you need him to. And if we can’t resign Magglio then I don’t have any issue sticking Dunn in RF on a regular basis. It’s not like Ordonez was a gold glover, he was painful to watch in RF. Cabrera and Dunn will be as scary a 1-2 power punch as you will see in the league. Then Vmart can catch or DH.
But rumor is the Cubs are going hard for Dunn so I think the Tigers will ultimately end up with Martinez and Maggs returning at a discount price.
Dear Frank McCourt,
You REALLY going to let this happen without a fight?
Signed,
Disillusioned Dodgers fans
you know mccheap aint gunna spend.
crawford will work good
really expensive tho….long term too
i also agree on a third baseman…as in we should work hard to put a really productive bat at that corner..
tweak the bullpen…add at least one seasoned vet (shouldnt have traded oliver in the first place)
and we should be pretty decent…
i wouldnt mind another higher ranking starter either…somewhere between haren and weaver
Angels never traded Oliver.
Crawford as an Angels makes sense, as does Werth for the Redsox. They just fit the organizations.
The big question is who lands Beltre as both these teams will be the main bidders for him as well… If the Angels can land both that is a coup and a slap in the RedSox face. They’d have to clear some salary and probably move Rivera, Kendrick/Callaspo/Izturis, and possibly Napoli, but it could happen.
If the Angels are able to land Crawford AND Beltre they aren’t going to have much money to adress other areas of the team. Boston has plenty of money to dump into big time players and fix the bullpen.
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Rumor is out there that Arte is going to or already has signed a new TV deal worth a few billion dollars. Considering what the Rangers just got and the fact that the Angels technically occupy the 2nd biggest market in the AL, I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s true to some extent.
I suppose we’ll find out this winter.
Interesting. We shall see.
Angels have too many needs to just focus on Crawford. 3B,SS,C, and bullpen.
brandon wood still hasn’t come around? lol
Admittedly, I don’t know the Angels’ system that well, but isn’t Hank Conger primed to take over the backstop? And they appear primed to bring in Crawford and Beltre. You plug in Kendrick, Izturis, Wood, and Aybar at the middle infield and you’re bound to find at least one good player and one nine-hole hitter.
napoli is fine
scoscia just hate playing him because of his “framework”
the guy makes up for it with his bat
3b and pitching for sure though..
Napoli is fine but he’s worth a good amount in a trade. You can live with Mathis until Conger is ready.
Mathis isn’t even on the Angels. and Napoli isn’t worth much in trade because the FA market is flooded with catchers as good as him, and cheaper.
seriously? im very sure that jeff mathis IS on the angels
Mathis is on the Angels; I think he’s a non-tender candidate. And Napoli does have much trade value because he’s near the top in homeruns for active catchers. The Mike Piazzas and Pudges of the world are no longer here, so Napoli is probably as good as gets as afar as catchers who hit for power.
I hope the Giants make a strong push for Crawford, he could hit 30 3b’s at Pac Bell
There’s only been 3 times in history when a player has hit 30+ triples in a season. And none in the live ball era.
Geeze I wish my team could spend this kind of money.
Marlins?
well i wish the marlins could just spend any money period…is it 2012 yet?
Almost
Haha no it’s not that bad. Cincinnati.
I’m already sick of free agency.. mlb free agency really really sucks.
I mean not one of the big name free agents is going to earn their contracts, its inevitable that they will be overpaid.
I mean cliff lee is good but is he worth 150 mil? is Crawford worth 100+ ? Werth 80+
like give me a break. The free agent markets are so weak, players command double what they actually deserve.
I sort of share your sentiments, but I really have no conception of how to possibly measure what a mlb free agent star deserves (which seems somehow slightly different from what they are worth…or is there not meaningful difference?).
Well I think of this way. If I’m a GM and I have a young Cliff Lee on my team under control for lets say 2 more years, but lets keep his numbers the same the last few years the same or else my scenario get thrown off.
So Lee is under team control, he has had the same 3 years he’s just had and you want to offer him a new contract to avoid arbitration… Does he end up getting 25 for the next 6 years? No chance in hell. More like a 4/15 with a 5th year 20 mil option.
Once an decent mlb player reaches free agency, as long as they are not 37+ years old they are almost guaranteed a bidding war, that drives up their price, not because they have earned that money or project to earn that money but because teams have no other options. What are the yankees or rangers supposed to do if they don’t land Lee? The free agent markets are just so thin.
I think it’s just part of the game, it’s how you weed the actual stars with the overhyped and forgettable. If you hear a price and think “wow is he worth it?” then obviously he’s not. Very subjective in a way. Though i do agree that in recent years it has gotten ridiculous. It’s a story of escalation, once someone breaks the bank (Arod) you’re inevitably going to see players start to follow.
I don’t know what team you root for so I don’t know how this effects you. I’m a yankee fan so take this all with a grain of salt because i can’t help but be spoiled (whether i like it or not)
Crawford, Bourjos and Trout in the outfield, that’s a ton of speed if it happens.
one can only dream.. wait, it’s actually possible?
i don’t think the SOX will go over 100 mil for one player… especially carl crawford. next year there’s a possibility that both Albert Pujols AND Adrian Gonzalez hit free agency. i would like to believe that since the yanks already have tex/arod at the corners, that would leave my SOX as the highest bidder for either two. those two are without a doubt worth 100m+ not crawford.
I think you might for Gonzalez, unless he gets traded to a team that might be able to resign him (which could be the sox)
I feel pujols might stay with the cardinals, but things could obviously change
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Gonzalez or Fielder in a Sox uniform in 2012. I’d love to see Pujols there but I just don’t see the Cards letting him walk.
i honestly don’t think the cards CAN keep him. he’s going to be asking for AROD type money and years and this is how AROD’s looking until 2018: 08:$27M, 09:$32M, 10:$32M, 11:$31M, 12:$29M, 13:$28M, 14:$25M, 15:$21M, 16:$20M, 17:$20M.
if this is what pujols wants then that would mean both pujols and holliday would be making around 47-51m between the two of them. in 2010 the cardinals payroll was at $ 94,220,500 according to cot’s contracts so this would mean pujols/holliday would be making somewhere around 52% of the team’s budget. can the cards really justify doing something like that? what if pujols misses significant time over the next couple of years? what if BOTH miss that kind of time? the cardinals are NOT the new york yankees. as a matter of fact their payroll is on 45% of what the yankees dish out (i know i can’t stand the yankees either).
Since the Yankees are the only team dumb enough to offer anyone “AROD type money and years”, Pujols probably isn’t going to get that… unless of course the Yankees decide they “need” him.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see both Gonzalez and Fielder in a Sox uniform in 2012…one uniform being red and white and the other’s being black and white 🙂
can the other go to the g-men?
Am i the only one who is sick and tired of Torii Hunter’s amateur GM mouth? Somehow people care to quote him on things that don’t relate to him. He’s not the face of the organization, he’s not that crazy good. He’s practically throwing his teammates under the bus every time he speaks. Maybe one day when you’re old and forgotten you’ll get a chance to play lil’ GM, in the mean time just shut up dude and play baseball
Yes, Torii Hunter is very much the face of the organization.
i thought it was the rally monkey
I think Torii’s rep was unfairly hurt by the perceived racist comments earlier this year. They were taken out of context and misunderstood and as someone who follows the team I can tell you he is the biggest voice in that locker room and a class act. He has kept a blog during the season providing his view for the fans to read and he always seems to be smiling and having a good time. Few players play the game with his enthusiasm and “Favre-like” fervor. If you’re sick of hearing from him, take it up with the reporters or just ignore it, but he hasn’t really thrown his teammates under the bus considering the Angels have made it very clear they’re pushing hard for Crawford too.
He’s one of the classiest guys in baseball, if you’re sick and tired of a player lobbying to bring other players to his team for a chance to win a World Series ring, then you’re sick of competition in general.
So you don’t think that team didn’t deserve to be thrown under the bus? The Angels have been coddling their players since they were first conceived as a franchise, and it really showed in 2010. The team, as well as much of the fan base, threw in the towel when they were 6 games back in late July. After that, there were a few teams who came back from bigger deficits. Aside from filling a few holes, the Angels’ players in general need a major kick in the behind, and they need it from leaders like Hunter in that clubhouse.
“The Angels have made Carl Crawford their primary free agent target and are prepared to spend $100MM or more on him,”
————
^ Well, I guess the Pirates are officially out of the running.
^ Also I guess the Indians are out too.
And the Royals
The guy is worth a lot but these $100M figures are laughable. He is just not THAT big a player. He won’t put a team on his back and win titles
No HE won’t but Weaver, Haren, Hunter, Morales and Crawford will.