Some links from the only division with three 90-win teams in 2011…
- WEEI.com's Alex Speier reports that the Red Sox will not interview anyone for their managerial opening until the status of GM Theo Epstein is resolved. The Cubs have asked permission to talk to Epstein about their GM vacancy.
- SI.com's Jon Heyman reports (on Twitter) that teams are showing trade interest in Joey Votto, and "speculation around the game" is that the Blue Jays will be in the mix. Earlier tonight we heard that the Reds have not discussed trading Votto, however.
- Unsurprisingly, the Yankees are looking for starting pitching and left-handed relievers, tweets Heyman. Our free agent list shows a number of attractive lefty relief options.
- Amber Sabathia, wife of Yankees ace CC Sabathia, told Ken Davidoff of Newsday that her family is "definitely invested" in New York and that she considers it to be their home. Sabathia can choose to opt-out of his seven-year, $161MM deal this winter.
- MLB.com's Britt Ghiroli looks both back and ahead with regards to the Orioles front office. President of baseball operations Andy MacPhail is stepping down when his contract expires at the end of the month.
Wow… now that’s a way to blow a ball game.
Detroit better bring it at home, or they can just stay there
Sabathia to sign with the Mets confirmed.
Sabathia to undergo season ending surgery confirmed.
I would only expect that to happen if he signs with the mets…
I would only expect that to happen if he signs with the mets…
Oh yeah with what money? (Mets & CC)
Also, why in the world do the Reds want to trade Votto, that’s crazy!
Plus, what the heck is wrong with Adam Lind? He was pretty good in his own right, plus he killed the Orioles all year long
One or two things, maybe they dont like their chances of resigning him when the deal is up, and Yonder Alonso seems poised to give similar production. If I were Jocketty, Id put a Friedman, and try to sign Alonso long term, if it gets done, then get the best package possible for Votto. Everybody wins in that situation. And no, Alonso cant stay in left, he was awful out there!
At this point, it’s more likely that CC signs The Mets.
Apocalypse confirmed shortly after.
What would the starting point in talks even be for the Jays to get serious for Joey Votto? What a huge acquisition that would be.
Starting point of Kyle Drabek, Anthony Gose and Travis D’Arnaud?
Romero & Lawrie would be the asking price, imo.
haha WHAT? In what world would the Jays do that, their own ace and a 21 year that put up 2.7 WAR in 43 games. AA would hangup if thats what they’re asking for. 5 more years of Romero + 6 years of Lawrie > 2 years of Votto.
In my opinion it will take something like Marisnick, Hutchison, Alvarez, Molina, Hechavarria (right now). But the price will go down at the deadline as well as next offseason, so I’d look for AA to jump on him next offseason, giving him a year to see if Lind can do anything to regain his 2009 form were he hit .300 – 35homers.
I never said the Jays do that, but that would be the ballpark of what the Reds will ask for.
I would imagine it wouldn’t be anything close to that. All you have to do is look at recent deals for similar players to Votto and nothing is anywhere close to that. SMH
What recent deals? Gonzalez? The Padres were in rebuild, they had to trade him. The Reds are still a competitive team, and have no absolute need to trade Votto.
And didn’t you say Shields + Lee + Colome for Votto was a fair deal in the other thread? How is that much different from Romero + Lawrie?
It’s different trading 2 pitching prospects then a position player that has proven he can play in the big leagues. It also has to do with team situations. The Rays have tons of pitching so giving up Shields isn’t that big of a deal compared to the Jays giving up Romero, when they need more pitching. The Reds also need to trade Votto more then you are thinking. They have to move Alonso to first because he is terrible in the field and after next year his salary goes up to 17 million and will be looking at 20+ after that. It will take 3 good prospects or 1 major league ready and 1 very close player, not 2 guys that are in the league already and are very good.
Shields is better than Romero. Lee is a (should be) top 50 SS prospect. Colome is probably a top 100 prospect. How is that significantly different from Romero & Lawrie? It just looks to me like you’re severely overvaluing your team’s players.
Also, how come the difference teams’ depths change the fairness of a deal? Just because the Rays have better pitching depth, it doesn’t make Shields + Lee + Colome more fair than Romero + Lawrie.
shields was better than romero THIS YEAR, but given the careers of both and their ages, i’d put my money on romero being the better guy going forward.
Also look back to this past offseason when the Justin Upton rumours were whirling. They were asking Drabek and Snider. Upton is younger, plays a more premier position and his contract is a way better situation. Value for value Upton is just as good as Votto and you didn’t here them asking the world for him because they are realistic, and you are not.
Upton was coming off a down season, and many teams picked the DBacks to finish last in the NL West. It’s not the same situation at all.
and, you know, they could just trade Alonso and keep their MVP 1B and try to win.
but they need pitching and Alonso isn’t going to get the type of players they need to compete.
sure, but they’d still have a great offense with Votto
and we have a great offense in Bautista.. one player isn’t going to bring a team anywhere.
It got them to the playoffs in 2010. They’ve improved since then. It’s not inconceivable they make the playoffs in 2012 or 2013.
they were opportunistic.
“It got them to the playoffs in 2010”
even if you assume their team hasn’t changed since then, others in the division have. the brewers, notably
yes, but the Brewers also lose Fielder, so the gains in starting pitcher are negated by a fair bit. The Cards may also lose Pujols, though we don’t know for sure.
they may, but i don’t think they’ll just pocket the money. next year is their last year to push before they collapse for awhile (part of why their model isn’t the best to follow)
cardinals may or may not lose pujols, but they will certainly gain wainright
the market for trading votto is the same market for fielder/pujols. so really, not that great.
the jays probably have 3 untouchable players. why trade one of them for a guy with less controlable years who costs more, let alone two? no team would do that.
the only reason this is an issue is because the reds also have alonso. my bet is nothing happens until the trade deadline at the earliest, but more likely the reds wait until next offseason to deal (if they do anything).
The point is that the Reds have the option of not trading Votto. They’ll have to win the trade by a significant amount to trade Votto.
the point is votto for romero + lawrie was/is a stupid statement. try this trade on a videogame and see what happens if you don’t believe me.
seriously? The point is that this whole TRADE VOTTO business isn’t even realistic for the Reds right now. They have a better option of competing the next two years rather than trading Votto.
well the whole point is that their return if they do that, will, AT BEST, be 2 top 40 draft picks which will maybe help them out in 2016 if they’re lucky. the point is minimizing that risk, and correctly assesing what the gap between votto and alonso is, and what their chances of competing beyond 2013 will be in all scenarios they are thinking of.
the fa compensation system may be overhauled before then, so who knows if they’ll get anything. it may be best for the jays to wait a couple years and just get votto for nothing but cold hard canadian cash.
But you just said that the Reds won’t be getting any significant players in a Votto deal. Then how does trading Votto help their chances of competing beyond 2013?
i didn’t say they wouldn’t get significant players, i said that they would not likely get TWO of another teams “core 3” players. most people are convinced that bautista, lawrie and romero have other ‘clubhouse’ and work ethic-y attributes beyond their ridiculously favourable contract situations.
Fine, then I guess something like Romero + good prospect or Lawrie + good prospect. Anyways, the Reds would much rather keep Votto if they aren’t going to get significant proven talent in the trade.
i also don’t get why this would come up. votto just turned 28. he’s just hitting his prime. alonso seems like the more likely trade chip. i agree the reds are going to look for an over-pay, but with fielder and pujols on the market, i think that will only happen if some team finds itself in the position the angels were in last offseason and ended up getting wells AND his contract. i doubt aa wants to be on the other end of the same deal that has made him infamous.
alonso won’t bring the caliber pitcher they need unless packaged with more – and they don’t want to completely deplete their system; they’re not a large market club
alonso won’t bring the caliber pitcher they need unless packaged with more – and they don’t want to completely deplete their system; they’re not a large market club
no offense but that trade proposal is ridiculous and even the reds themselves wouldnt ask for that.
Why would the Jays even consider trading romero unless it was to bring back an ace? Losing lawrie and romero would set them back so far that even adding Votto wouldn’t help them finish over .500
Only reason Shields is mentioned is because the Rays want to trade him before he gets expensive. Jays have no reason to move romero.
Given the past trades of gonzalez, teixera, cabrera, you’re trade is soo far far off.
Why wouldn’t the Reds ask for that? They have no incentive to trade Votto. I’m pretty certain they’re fine going the way the Brewers went with Prince, just try to compete with Votto. If a team wanted Votto, they’re going to have to offer a near-top of the rotation pitcher and/or a significant major league ready position player.
The reds are not even close to contention… The brewers brought in Grienke, Marcum and Krod.. the reds don’t have the farm to bring anyone in that impactful.
So trading Votto this year might be a step back at first but it might put them in a better position in a year or 2..
You can’t name one team that would be willing to trade a pitcher of Romero’s quality off their roster for votto. Shields is the only exception given tampa bays financial constraints.
Didn’t they make the playoffs last year? Don’t they have Mesoraco now? Don’t they have Chapman starting now? They’re improving. The Brewers are losing Prince and Cards may lose Pujols. The division is pretty much up for grabs.
That’s flawed logic and you know it, 2 years ago they were a different team, they havent improved and don’t have the pitching to sniff the playoffs, 2011 proved that in spades.
What was different? Tell me.
competition. they are not the best team in their division.. they aren’t even 2nd best. and without fixing their rotation and bullpen, they won’t be in 2012
“Don’t have the farm to bring in anyone impactful?”
The Red’s have a top 10 farm system, and guys like Mesoraco, Alonso, Hamilton, Grandel, etc. would bring back nice returns if they were made available.
and leave almost nothing behind them, since most of the rest of their top prospects from 2011 have graduated or are about to
you mean like the Brewers?
exactly like the brewers, except the brewers didn’t have to play against the brewers
“they’re fine going the way the Brewers went with Prince”
there’s not enough in their system to comfortably acquire a greinke, a marcum, a k-rod etc. you might be right that they’ll hang tight, but that’s not a realistic model to follow
I don’t think the Reds team fall all that far behind MIL and STL, maybe it’s just me.
I mean, the SP is a bit of a mess, but the offense is clearly good enough.
it is. but SP is a big deal. there’s no greinke gallardo and marcum or even a carpenter and wainright
they’re not “that” far behind in the sense that it isn’t crazy to think they could stay hot and hit their way in. but assuming alonso hits like a big boy, they’d surely have a better chance if they acquired a top starter and some extra pieces for votto, awesome as he is
No Greinke? You sir are forgetting about Bronson Arroyo and his cornrows…
it is. but SP is a big deal. there’s no greinke gallardo and marcum or even a carpenter and wainright
they’re not “that” far behind in the sense that it isn’t crazy to think they could stay hot and hit their way in. but assuming alonso hits like a big boy, they’d surely have a better chance if they acquired a top starter and some extra pieces for votto, awesome as he is
AA: “”
Revenue is the biggest reason AA would not hang up on a Votto trade proposal. He(Votto) would be much more valuable to the bottom line from a ticket sales, apparel, and advertising standpoint than Bautista or anyone comparable (e.g. Fielder). Even if on field production was a wash, I assure you and your video game trade analysis that the Blue Jays would listen and likely will inquire on Votto.
Come on man, even you dont believe that. Be serious for a second
Reds don’t need D’Arnaud, they already have a glut of catching prospect depth.
They’d want Gose and at least two solid pitching prospects.
Depending on what they think of him, I imagine Hech would be discussed. Reds need a SS.
or escobar
That’d make little sense for the Jays. Trading for Votto is a win now move. Hech isn’t ready
hech needs to be on the roster by the end of next year, afaik, or he becomes a FA. i think they see him as an everyday player, so i doubt they want to use him as a utility player, as it would be unlikely his bat would develop.
I’m pretty sure they actually have two more option years on him and his contract doesn’t make that claim (at least not according to Cot’s Baseball Contracts).
that’s not true about hech fyi.
Lind, Arencibia, 1 major league ready arm, and 1 prospect arm (not Drabek) would be a start I’d say.
*Facepalm*
i wish they would not throw around rumors like this, just gets all jays fans excited about what could be
Make it happen Anthopolous!
shut up woman i’m trying to negotiate!
It must have been kind of weird doing an interview in the kitchen.
c.c. does it all the time
What would be a reasonable trade from the Jays? I was thinking: one of Snider or Thames plus Hech? I know that they want pitching so maybe Snider or Thames and one of the many pitching prospects. What does everyone think?
much more difficult to match up cincy and toronto, partly because of their needs and partly because of the fact that if anthopolous acquires votto it will almost certainly be in a three team deal
I think it depends on what Alex wants to give up. You look at what Boston gave up for A-gonz and you have to think it would be significantly more for Votto being under control for 2 years instead of 1. But then again A-gonz was only making ~4.5 mill for 2011. I think an offer right now of Snider, Marisnick, Hutchison, Hechavarria would get it done for 2 years of Votto. Maybe add in another piece like Nestor Molina or Aaron Sanchez if Reds don’t think thats enough. I would do this provided Votto signs an extension long term with Toronto. (his hometown)
I’m just one opinion, but the Padres got fleeced in the Gonzalez trade. I have absolutely zero data to suggest that opinion will hold true in the coming years, but in sheer content; it was like a sale at Marshalls, on RT. 23 in NJ. Despite the obvious comparisons btw A-Gon and Votto, I have to believe any trade involving Votto will require much more. There is absolutely zero reason in my mind why Hoyer didn’t start with Bard or Ellsbury. I don’t think I’ll ever appreciate that trade, especially considering the team was a playoff contender at the time. I know, I know, his contract only had one year left, but I do believe other teams such as the Angels, could have stepped in, even the Mariners and the Braves and would it have been so bad to get the two picks? It seems like no more or no less then what they have now. Someday it will come out the Epstein held a gun to Hoyers head, while wearing a diaper and demanded A-Gon before a fan riot ensued in Boston.
Votto would probably cost too much and I think the Jays would be better off throwing down $150mm over 6 for Fielder. Maybe pry something loose elsewhere. I don’t think they need to focus an incredible amount of attention at 1st for the time being.
They traded him a year or two too late. As the clock ticked, so did Hoyer’s leverage, regardless of the numbers AGon was putting up.
There is some truth to “a year too late” but I’d argue that Hoyer had more leverage than we think. Boston was more or less desperate for Gonzalez at the time. They had convinced themselves that this was their better option over Beltre and or Martinez. That said Hoyer knew that the Sox were his best trade partner and he should have gotten at least, at minimum, JUST 1, MLB ready player! If they were going the cheap rebuilding route, they should have just waited 1 year for the draft and given the team a shot at another run for the post season in 2011.
Technically they did get a major league ready player.
Who? Serious question. Kelly (at the time 2-3 years away) Rizzo (1-2 away and it was a mistake for the Padres to bring him up early this season) and who was the other guy Fuentes?
They also got Eric Patterson in the deal. Thus the word “technically.”
ahh right. I always wondered and then forgot about the PTBNL.
I gotta admit, when I first heard PTBL I was thinking what every Sox fan was… it was either Britton or Bogaerts. Patterson just surprised the hell out of me.
…and which makes the deal all the more awful..good grief.
Agreed.. Superstars should command more than they do these days. How Bard or Ellsbury aren’t in SD and Eric Patterson is, or even how Doc only netted 3 prospects (none being DomBrown) is kinda ridiculous.
On a side note.. posted something a while back about AGon+Crawford not being that much of an upgrade over Beltre+VMart+half the farm… just saying…
Agreed.. Superstars should command more than they do these days. How Bard or Ellsbury aren’t in SD and Eric Patterson is, or even how Doc only netted 3 prospects (none being DomBrown) is kinda ridiculous.
On a side note.. posted something a while back about AGon+Crawford not being that much of an upgrade over Beltre+VMart+half the farm… just saying…
“look at what Boston gave up for A-gonz”
not officially reported, but boston doesn’t make that deal without an extension agreed to. the extension was 7 years. votto’s got 2 years and probably won’t be extended at the time of the deal
That’s just too much to give up.
Consider this: a Votto extension would run into, what, $18m – $20m+ per annum. On top of that the Jays would be giving up some seriously, seriously good future talent.
I’d far rather throw a similar-ish amount of money at Fielder and lose just the one draft pick. Or we could see if Lind’s bat comes around in 2012, and then test the Reds when Votto’s contract is nearer expiry. Even an effective free agent DH signing would be enough to shore up that troublesome clean-up spot without gutting the future.
ugh, are you kidding? No way the Reds even blink at that.
You are grossly over estimating what it takes to get players. Just look at recent history.
So… an all-glove SS and two mediocre (as of yet) LF for 2 years of an MVP caliber 1B?
Tell me why the Reds would want risky unproven players when their team is built to compete now
No, no, no. Alvarez, Thames/Snider, and Gose should get the chips rolling.
Reds need mlb ready pitching. I think it has to start with Drabek and then add one of Gose or Thames, plus one of Heck or Thon.
I would be turned off about drabek if i was another team, and probably look at alvarez instead.
go jays!
Trading for Votto would be stupid. Better to sign Fielder to a ridiculous contract then to trade half the farm for Votto, and then extend him to a ridiculous contract.
but he’s from toronto he will play for free
He’ll play for free, and this is the outcome after signing that kind of contract.
So you want Fielder AND Votto on ridiculous contracts?
It would appear you read my post wrong there bud.
no, you used a then instead of a than
/grammarnazi’d
Only if I use a comma after then/than :p
Grammar Nazi’s are the 4th Reich, and I’m the Führer!
At what point does this go too far?
Oh yea well Im the Grammar Jew!! mozeltov!!
CC ain’t going nowhere. No way he leaves New York.
-Why would he leave a place where he has won is going to win
-Has dedicated his family to
-Gets tons of cash
rebuttal
-other teams have won and will win besides the yankees
-his family will come with him anywhere he decides to go, in fact he had to convince his wife to move to new york original
-he will get a ton of cash from a lot of places.
reasons to leave new york
-move out of the media spotlight
-weather
He probably won’t leave, but if CC opts out of his contract (as most expect), then he is clearly open to the possibility of moving. The happy talk about NY means very little; Sabathia is part of the super-rich, but wants to be richer still. If another contending team offers significantly more than the Yankees, he’d surely move on.
He probably won’t leave, but if CC opts out of his contract (as most expect), then he is clearly open to the possibility of moving. The happy talk about NY means very little; Sabathia is part of the super-rich, but wants to be richer still. If another contending team offers significantly more than the Yankees, he’d surely move on.
Blue Jays can just sign Fielder and not give up any prospects or major league talent, that would make the most sense.
Except for the prospect that comes with a first round pick…
Which isn’t that much. 17th overall pick has a low expectancy of being an impact big leaguer in a normal draft, and this is supposed to be a shallow one.
But would you not agree that the 17th overall pick is a prospect? Consider this years 17th pick, C.J. Cron. I’m sure that most scouts would offer the opinion that he’s a valid major-league bat. Whether he’s a middle-of-the-order bat remains to be seen, but he’s a polished guy who will likely get to the big leagues quickly.
A prospect is a prospect indeed. But it ought to be noted that the Jays have two first-round picks in 2012, and can always spend a little more in later rounds for the tough signs if they want to make up the talent.
I’d also say that an established prospect is more exciting than an unknown prospect (getting into dangerous Rumsfeld ‘known unknowns’ there). The likes of Hutchison, Molina, Marisnick, Gose, and D’Arnaud are tremendously exciting, and I’m sure most Jays fans would rather sacrifice 1/2 a first-round pick than lose several of those guys.
I agree with that, I was mostly taking issue with him saying “no” prospects or major-league talent.
Any MacFAIL is such a fraud. I don’t know how he did it with Minnesota but he was awful in Chicago and Baltimore. As for CC, non-story, he’s not leaving New York.
Mazel Tov?
/spelling nazi’d
EDIT: This was in reply to windycitywarrior’s post “Oh yea well Im the Grammar Jew!! mozeltov!!”
my point exactly…. enough w/ the spell checks u a holes
DISQUS!!!
oh my GOD the Boston media needs to find something better to do than speculate over Theo Epstein and disect every word out of the owners mouths.
The back and forth discussion – (and an “Illinois resident” thinking they saw someone who looks like Epstein in a Starbucks qualifies as a story?) is like watching a teenage girl decide what to wear to the prom. Just put something on already because we’re done caring!
I don’t think the Yanks will be caught short on pitching again this year, they will resign CC and get either CJ Wilson or trade for a good #2.
Could you start with Lind and Snider +++ for Votto. Snider is still young and talented enough to be attractive and Lind is coming off a pretty good year.
Maybe Lind + Snider + (pitching prospect) + (another prospect).
Reds don’t need Lind at all. We have Alonso to take over at 1B when Votto leaves. Your proposal is too weak.
Alvarez + Goose + Another top pitching prospect
Alvarez + Gose + McGuire + Hutchison seems fair-ish. Still needs more I think
Alvarez would have been my ‘pitching prospect’ as mentioned above.
What you’ve mentioned sounds pretty good but Id like the Reds to allow the Jays to discuss an extension as Halladay did with the Phillies.
Alvarez + Gose + McGuire + Hutchison seems fair-ish. Still needs more I think
I agree, the Reds need an ace pitcher like Shields, its time for Cinnci to get in the game or they will be left behind. Shields for Alonzo and Frazier or Mesoraco.
Reds don’t need Lind at all. We have Alonso to take over at 1B when Votto leaves. Your proposal is too weak.
Alvarez + Goose + Another top pitching prospect
The Jays should do whatever it takes to get Votto, he’s a great player! The problem is the answer is Ricky Romero!
I wouldn’t agree that they should do ‘whatever it takes’. Overpaying for Votto is not the answer, a fair package is reasonable but if you give up Romero your not any further ahead.
I think Alvarez, McGuire, Gose, Hutchinson is fair for Votto though neither team should do it.
Reds are better off trying to acquire a Grienke like ace with their remaining prospects and go for the NL Central title next year. I expect the Brewers and Cardinals to regress in 2012. It’s also unlikely they’ll get the top of the rotation starter they desire in trading Votto.
The Jays are better off keeping their young pitching, since their major league rotation needs a lot of work. Acquiring Votto does not put them into the playoff conversation – acquiring pitching will.
I agree, Shields is the answer for the Reds.
I think people are overlooking two key facts. First Jocketty said they have not had any discussions about trading Votto. Second, the Reds do not have to trade him right now. The Reds are holding all the cards right now. If a team wants Votto for 2 seasons, or even a year and a half then they will have to pay a king’s ransom for him. I understand they want to play Yonder but they have all offseason to work with him in left field to make his defense respectable at least.
It will take a top tier ML pitcher, who is under team control for several years as a starting point. I already understand this is already a high asking price to start with but once again, the Reds have all the leverage as things stand today.
shields + lee + colome. done
originally i thought all these votto rumors were the product of a bunch of blue jay fanboys, but it does seem to be hanging around like a bad smell. what jocketty said means nothing, he’s probably just trying to prevent mass suicide and backlash from the fanbase, plus prevent every “expert” in the media from giving their opinion and thus influencing the market.
i agree that it is entirely up to the reds to trade him or not, they still hold some leverage. however, i think everyone knows that eventually one of votto or alonso will have to leave town at some point. that fact kills a lot of your leverage right there because other teams know that if the reds want to get good value from both players, a trade is inevitable. i havent seen alonso play in left, but the general consensus seems to be that he lacks the physical ability to play out there. some offseason work may help with his reads and his throwing, but if he lacks the range to play the position, there’s only so good he can get.
based on the fact that votto still has 2 years left on his deal and the chances of resigning him are next to nil, now may be the time to trade him to get the best value. they can deal him for high end starting pitching right now if they think they can contend next year, or if they still dont think they can compete in that scenario, they can deal for a massive prospect package and get a jumpstart on a quick rebuilding phase.
either way there’s a lot of sense to a votto deal right now.
Check out my take on the Red Sox at http://thebestsoxblog.mlblogs.com