Some links from the only division with three 90-win teams in 2011…
- WEEI.com's Alex Speier reports that the Red Sox will not interview anyone for their managerial opening until the status of GM Theo Epstein is resolved. The Cubs have asked permission to talk to Epstein about their GM vacancy.
- SI.com's Jon Heyman reports (on Twitter) that teams are showing trade interest in Joey Votto, and "speculation around the game" is that the Blue Jays will be in the mix. Earlier tonight we heard that the Reds have not discussed trading Votto, however.
- Unsurprisingly, the Yankees are looking for starting pitching and left-handed relievers, tweets Heyman. Our free agent list shows a number of attractive lefty relief options.
- Amber Sabathia, wife of Yankees ace CC Sabathia, told Ken Davidoff of Newsday that her family is "definitely invested" in New York and that she considers it to be their home. Sabathia can choose to opt-out of his seven-year, $161MM deal this winter.
- MLB.com's Britt Ghiroli looks both back and ahead with regards to the Orioles front office. President of baseball operations Andy MacPhail is stepping down when his contract expires at the end of the month.
Wow… now that’s a way to blow a ball game.
Detroit better bring it at home, or they can just stay there
Sabathia to sign with the Mets confirmed.
Sabathia to undergo season ending surgery confirmed.
I would only expect that to happen if he signs with the mets…
I would only expect that to happen if he signs with the mets…
Oh yeah with what money? (Mets & CC)
Also, why in the world do the Reds want to trade Votto, that’s crazy!
Plus, what the heck is wrong with Adam Lind? He was pretty good in his own right, plus he killed the Orioles all year long
One or two things, maybe they dont like their chances of resigning him when the deal is up, and Yonder Alonso seems poised to give similar production. If I were Jocketty, Id put a Friedman, and try to sign Alonso long term, if it gets done, then get the best package possible for Votto. Everybody wins in that situation. And no, Alonso cant stay in left, he was awful out there!
At this point, it’s more likely that CC signs The Mets.
Apocalypse confirmed shortly after.
What would the starting point in talks even be for the Jays to get serious for Joey Votto? What a huge acquisition that would be.
Starting point of Kyle Drabek, Anthony Gose and Travis D’Arnaud?
Romero & Lawrie would be the asking price, imo.
haha WHAT? In what world would the Jays do that, their own ace and a 21 year that put up 2.7 WAR in 43 games. AA would hangup if thats what they’re asking for. 5 more years of Romero + 6 years of Lawrie > 2 years of Votto.
In my opinion it will take something like Marisnick, Hutchison, Alvarez, Molina, Hechavarria (right now). But the price will go down at the deadline as well as next offseason, so I’d look for AA to jump on him next offseason, giving him a year to see if Lind can do anything to regain his 2009 form were he hit .300 – 35homers.
I never said the Jays do that, but that would be the ballpark of what the Reds will ask for.
I would imagine it wouldn’t be anything close to that. All you have to do is look at recent deals for similar players to Votto and nothing is anywhere close to that. SMH
What recent deals? Gonzalez? The Padres were in rebuild, they had to trade him. The Reds are still a competitive team, and have no absolute need to trade Votto.
And didn’t you say Shields + Lee + Colome for Votto was a fair deal in the other thread? How is that much different from Romero + Lawrie?
It’s different trading 2 pitching prospects then a position player that has proven he can play in the big leagues. It also has to do with team situations. The Rays have tons of pitching so giving up Shields isn’t that big of a deal compared to the Jays giving up Romero, when they need more pitching. The Reds also need to trade Votto more then you are thinking. They have to move Alonso to first because he is terrible in the field and after next year his salary goes up to 17 million and will be looking at 20+ after that. It will take 3 good prospects or 1 major league ready and 1 very close player, not 2 guys that are in the league already and are very good.
Shields is better than Romero. Lee is a (should be) top 50 SS prospect. Colome is probably a top 100 prospect. How is that significantly different from Romero & Lawrie? It just looks to me like you’re severely overvaluing your team’s players.
Also, how come the difference teams’ depths change the fairness of a deal? Just because the Rays have better pitching depth, it doesn’t make Shields + Lee + Colome more fair than Romero + Lawrie.
shields was better than romero THIS YEAR, but given the careers of both and their ages, i’d put my money on romero being the better guy going forward.
Also look back to this past offseason when the Justin Upton rumours were whirling. They were asking Drabek and Snider. Upton is younger, plays a more premier position and his contract is a way better situation. Value for value Upton is just as good as Votto and you didn’t here them asking the world for him because they are realistic, and you are not.
Upton was coming off a down season, and many teams picked the DBacks to finish last in the NL West. It’s not the same situation at all.
and, you know, they could just trade Alonso and keep their MVP 1B and try to win.
but they need pitching and Alonso isn’t going to get the type of players they need to compete.
sure, but they’d still have a great offense with Votto
and we have a great offense in Bautista.. one player isn’t going to bring a team anywhere.
It got them to the playoffs in 2010. They’ve improved since then. It’s not inconceivable they make the playoffs in 2012 or 2013.
they were opportunistic.
“It got them to the playoffs in 2010”
even if you assume their team hasn’t changed since then, others in the division have. the brewers, notably
yes, but the Brewers also lose Fielder, so the gains in starting pitcher are negated by a fair bit. The Cards may also lose Pujols, though we don’t know for sure.
they may, but i don’t think they’ll just pocket the money. next year is their last year to push before they collapse for awhile (part of why their model isn’t the best to follow)
cardinals may or may not lose pujols, but they will certainly gain wainright
the market for trading votto is the same market for fielder/pujols. so really, not that great.
the jays probably have 3 untouchable players. why trade one of them for a guy with less controlable years who costs more, let alone two? no team would do that.
the only reason this is an issue is because the reds also have alonso. my bet is nothing happens until the trade deadline at the earliest, but more likely the reds wait until next offseason to deal (if they do anything).
The point is that the Reds have the option of not trading Votto. They’ll have to win the trade by a significant amount to trade Votto.
the point is votto for romero + lawrie was/is a stupid statement. try this trade on a videogame and see what happens if you don’t believe me.
seriously? The point is that this whole TRADE VOTTO business isn’t even realistic for the Reds right now. They have a better option of competing the next two years rather than trading Votto.
well the whole point is that their return if they do that, will, AT BEST, be 2 top 40 draft picks which will maybe help them out in 2016 if they’re lucky. the point is minimizing that risk, and correctly assesing what the gap between votto and alonso is, and what their chances of competing beyond 2013 will be in all scenarios they are thinking of.
the fa compensation system may be overhauled before then, so who knows if they’ll get anything. it may be best for the jays to wait a couple years and just get votto for nothing but cold hard canadian cash.
But you just said that the Reds won’t be getting any significant players in a Votto deal. Then how does trading Votto help their chances of competing beyond 2013?
i didn’t say they wouldn’t get significant players, i said that they would not likely get TWO of another teams “core 3” players. most people are convinced that bautista, lawrie and romero have other ‘clubhouse’ and work ethic-y attributes beyond their ridiculously favourable contract situations.
Fine, then I guess something like Romero + good prospect or Lawrie + good prospect. Anyways, the Reds would much rather keep Votto if they aren’t going to get significant proven talent in the trade.
i also don’t get why this would come up. votto just turned 28. he’s just hitting his prime. alonso seems like the more likely trade chip. i agree the reds are going to look for an over-pay, but with fielder and pujols on the market, i think that will only happen if some team finds itself in the position the angels were in last offseason and ended up getting wells AND his contract. i doubt aa wants to be on the other end of the same deal that has made him infamous.
alonso won’t bring the caliber pitcher they need unless packaged with more – and they don’t want to completely deplete their system; they’re not a large market club
alonso won’t bring the caliber pitcher they need unless packaged with more – and they don’t want to completely deplete their system; they’re not a large market club
no offense but that trade proposal is ridiculous and even the reds themselves wouldnt ask for that.
Why would the Jays even consider trading romero unless it was to bring back an ace? Losing lawrie and romero would set them back so far that even adding Votto wouldn’t help them finish over .500
Only reason Shields is mentioned is because the Rays want to trade him before he gets expensive. Jays have no reason to move romero.
Given the past trades of gonzalez, teixera, cabrera, you’re trade is soo far far off.
Why wouldn’t the Reds ask for that? They have no incentive to trade Votto. I’m pretty certain they’re fine going the way the Brewers went with Prince, just try to compete with Votto. If a team wanted Votto, they’re going to have to offer a near-top of the rotation pitcher and/or a significant major league ready position player.
The reds are not even close to contention… The brewers brought in Grienke, Marcum and Krod.. the reds don’t have the farm to bring anyone in that impactful.
So trading Votto this year might be a step back at first but it might put them in a better position in a year or 2..
You can’t name one team that would be willing to trade a pitcher of Romero’s quality off their roster for votto. Shields is the only exception given tampa bays financial constraints.
Didn’t they make the playoffs last year? Don’t they have Mesoraco now? Don’t they have Chapman starting now? They’re improving. The Brewers are losing Prince and Cards may lose Pujols. The division is pretty much up for grabs.
That’s flawed logic and you know it, 2 years ago they were a different team, they havent improved and don’t have the pitching to sniff the playoffs, 2011 proved that in spades.
What was different? Tell me.
competition. they are not the best team in their division.. they aren’t even 2nd best. and without fixing their rotation and bullpen, they won’t be in 2012
“Don’t have the farm to bring in anyone impactful?”
The Red’s have a top 10 farm system, and guys like Mesoraco, Alonso, Hamilton, Grandel, etc. would bring back nice returns if they were made available.
and leave almost nothing behind them, since most of the rest of their top prospects from 2011 have graduated or are about to
you mean like the Brewers?
exactly like the brewers, except the brewers didn’t have to play against the brewers
“they’re fine going the way the Brewers went with Prince”
there’s not enough in their system to comfortably acquire a greinke, a marcum, a k-rod etc. you might be right that they’ll hang tight, but that’s not a realistic model to follow
I don’t think the Reds team fall all that far behind MIL and STL, maybe it’s just me.
I mean, the SP is a bit of a mess, but the offense is clearly good enough.
it is. but SP is a big deal. there’s no greinke gallardo and marcum or even a carpenter and wainright
they’re not “that” far behind in the sense that it isn’t crazy to think they could stay hot and hit their way in. but assuming alonso hits like a big boy, they’d surely have a better chance if they acquired a top starter and some extra pieces for votto, awesome as he is
No Greinke? You sir are forgetting about Bronson Arroyo and his cornrows…
it is. but SP is a big deal. there’s no greinke gallardo and marcum or even a carpenter and wainright
they’re not “that” far behind in the sense that it isn’t crazy to think they could stay hot and hit their way in. but assuming alonso hits like a big boy, they’d surely have a better chance if they acquired a top starter and some extra pieces for votto, awesome as he is
AA: “”
Revenue is the biggest reason AA would not hang up on a Votto trade proposal. He(Votto) would be much more valuable to the bottom line from a ticket sales, apparel, and advertising standpoint than Bautista or anyone comparable (e.g. Fielder). Even if on field production was a wash, I assure you and your video game trade analysis that the Blue Jays would listen and likely will inquire on Votto.
Come on man, even you dont believe that. Be serious for a second
Reds don’t need D’Arnaud, they already have a glut of catching prospect depth.
They’d want Gose and at least two solid pitching prospects.
Depending on what they think of him, I imagine Hech would be discussed. Reds need a SS.
or escobar
That’d make little sense for the Jays. Trading for Votto is a win now move. Hech isn’t ready
hech needs to be on the roster by the end of next year, afaik, or he becomes a FA. i think they see him as an everyday player, so i doubt they want to use him as a utility player, as it would be unlikely his bat would develop.
I’m pretty sure they actually have two more option years on him and his contract doesn’t make that claim (at least not according to Cot’s Baseball Contracts).
that’s not true about hech fyi.
Lind, Arencibia, 1 major league ready arm, and 1 prospect arm (not Drabek) would be a start I’d say.
*Facepalm*
i wish they would not throw around rumors like this, just gets all jays fans excited about what could be
Make it happen Anthopolous!
shut up woman i’m trying to negotiate!
It must have been kind of weird doing an interview in the kitchen.
c.c. does it all the time
What would be a reasonable trade from the Jays? I was thinking: one of Snider or Thames plus Hech? I know that they want pitching so maybe Snider or Thames and one of the many pitching prospects. What does everyone think?
much more difficult to match up cincy and toronto, partly because of their needs and partly because of the fact that if anthopolous acquires votto it will almost certainly be in a three team deal
I think it depends on what Alex wants to give up. You look at what Boston gave up for A-gonz and you have to think it would be significantly more for Votto being under control for 2 years instead of 1. But then again A-gonz was only making ~4.5 mill for 2011. I think an offer right now of Snider, Marisnick, Hutchison, Hechavarria would get it done for 2 years of Votto. Maybe add in another piece like Nestor Molina or Aaron Sanchez if Reds don’t think thats enough. I would do this provided Votto signs an extension long term with Toronto. (his hometown)
I’m just one opinion, but the Padres got fleeced in the Gonzalez trade. I have absolutely zero data to suggest that opinion will hold true in the coming years, but in sheer content; it was like a sale at Marshalls, on RT. 23 in NJ. Despite the obvious comparisons btw A-Gon and Votto, I have to believe any trade involving Votto will require much more. There is absolutely zero reason in my mind why Hoyer didn’t start with Bard or Ellsbury. I don’t think I’ll ever appreciate that trade, especially considering the team was a playoff contender at the time. I know, I know, his contract only had one year left, but I do believe other teams such as the Angels, could have stepped in, even the Mariners and the Braves and would it have been so bad to get the two picks? It seems like no more or no less then what they have now. Someday it will come out the Epstein held a gun to Hoyers head, while wearing a diaper and demanded A-Gon before a fan riot ensued in Boston.
Votto would probably cost too much and I think the Jays would be better off throwing down $150mm over 6 for Fielder. Maybe pry something loose elsewhere. I don’t think they need to focus an incredible amount of attention at 1st for the time being.
They traded him a year or two too late. As the clock ticked, so did Hoyer’s leverage, regardless of the numbers AGon was putting up.
There is some truth to “a year too late” but I’d argue that Hoyer had more leverage than we think. Boston was more or less desperate for Gonzalez at the time. They had convinced themselves that this was their better option over Beltre and or Martinez. That said Hoyer knew that the Sox were his best trade partner and he should have gotten at least, at minimum, JUST 1, MLB ready player! If they were going the cheap rebuilding route, they should have just waited 1 year for the draft and given the team a shot at another run for the post season in 2011.
Technically they did get a major league ready player.
Who? Serious question. Kelly (at the time 2-3 years away) Rizzo (1-2 away and it was a mistake for the Padres to bring him up early this season) and who was the other guy Fuentes?
They also got Eric Patterson in the deal. Thus the word “technically.”
ahh right. I always wondered and then forgot about the PTBNL.
I gotta admit, when I first heard PTBL I was thinking what every Sox fan was… it was either Britton or Bogaerts. Patterson just surprised the hell out of me.
…and which makes the deal all the more awful..good grief.
Agreed.. Superstars should command more than they do these days. How Bard or Ellsbury aren’t in SD and Eric Patterson is, or even how Doc only netted 3 prospects (none being DomBrown) is kinda ridiculous.
On a side note.. posted something a while back about AGon+Crawford not being that much of an upgrade over Beltre+VMart+half the farm… just saying…
Agreed.. Superstars should command more than they do these days. How Bard or Ellsbury aren’t in SD and Eric Patterson is, or even how Doc only netted 3 prospects (none being DomBrown) is kinda ridiculous.
On a side note.. posted something a while back about AGon+Crawford not being that much of an upgrade over Beltre+VMart+half the farm… just saying…
“look at what Boston gave up for A-gonz”
not officially reported, but boston doesn’t make that deal without an extension agreed to. the extension was 7 years. votto’s got 2 years and probably won’t be extended at the time of the deal
That’s just too much to give up.
Consider this: a Votto extension would run into, what, $18m – $20m+ per annum. On top of that the Jays would be giving up some seriously, seriously good future talent.
I’d far rather throw a similar-ish amount of money at Fielder and lose just the one draft pick. Or we could see if Lind’s bat comes around in 2012, and then test the Reds when Votto’s contract is nearer expiry. Even an effective free agent DH signing would be enough to shore up that troublesome clean-up spot without gutting the future.
ugh, are you kidding? No way the Reds even blink at that.
You are grossly over estimating what it takes to get players. Just look at recent history.
So… an all-glove SS and two mediocre (as of yet) LF for 2 years of an MVP caliber 1B?
Tell me why the Reds would want risky unproven players when their team is built to compete now
No, no, no. Alvarez, Thames/Snider, and Gose should get the chips rolling.
Reds need mlb ready pitching. I think it has to start with Drabek and then add one of Gose or Thames, plus one of Heck or Thon.
I would be turned off about drabek if i was another team, and probably look at alvarez instead.
go jays!
Trading for Votto would be stupid. Better to sign Fielder to a ridiculous contract then to trade half the farm for Votto, and then extend him to a ridiculous contract.
but he’s from toronto he will play for free
He’ll play for free, and this is the outcome after signing that kind of contract.
So you want Fielder AND Votto on ridiculous contracts?
It would appear you read my post wrong there bud.
no, you used a then instead of a than
/grammarnazi’d
Only if I use a comma after then/than :p
Grammar Nazi’s are the 4th Reich, and I’m the Führer!
At what point does this go too far?
Oh yea well Im the Grammar Jew!! mozeltov!!
CC ain’t going nowhere. No way he leaves New York.
-Why would he leave a place where he has won is going to win
-Has dedicated his family to
-Gets tons of cash
rebuttal
-other teams have won and will win besides the yankees
-his family will come with him anywhere he decides to go, in fact he had to convince his wife to move to new york original
-he will get a ton of cash from a lot of places.
reasons to leave new york
-move out of the media spotlight
-weather
He probably won’t leave, but if CC opts out of his contract (as most expect), then he is clearly open to the possibility of moving. The happy talk about NY means very little; Sabathia is part of the super-rich, but wants to be richer still. If another contending team offers significantly more than the Yankees, he’d surely move on.
He probably won’t leave, but if CC opts out of his contract (as most expect), then he is clearly open to the possibility of moving. The happy talk about NY means very little; Sabathia is part of the super-rich, but wants to be richer still. If another contending team offers significantly more than the Yankees, he’d surely move on.
Blue Jays can just sign Fielder and not give up any prospects or major league talent, that would make the most sense.
Except for the prospect that comes with a first round pick…
Which isn’t that much. 17th overall pick has a low expectancy of being an impact big leaguer in a normal draft, and this is supposed to be a shallow one.
But would you not agree that the 17th overall pick is a prospect? Consider this years 17th pick, C.J. Cron. I’m sure that most scouts would offer the opinion that he’s a valid major-league bat. Whether he’s a middle-of-the-order bat remains to be seen, but he’s a polished guy who will likely get to the big leagues quickly.
A prospect is a prospect indeed. But it ought to be noted that the Jays have two first-round picks in 2012, and can always spend a little more in later rounds for the tough signs if they want to make up the talent.
I’d also say that an established prospect is more exciting than an unknown prospect (getting into dangerous Rumsfeld ‘known unknowns’ there). The likes of Hutchison, Molina, Marisnick, Gose, and D’Arnaud are tremendously exciting, and I’m sure most Jays fans would rather sacrifice 1/2 a first-round pick than lose several of those guys.
I agree with that, I was mostly taking issue with him saying “no” prospects or major-league talent.
Any MacFAIL is such a fraud. I don’t know how he did it with Minnesota but he was awful in Chicago and Baltimore. As for CC, non-story, he’s not leaving New York.
Mazel Tov?
/spelling nazi’d
EDIT: This was in reply to windycitywarrior’s post “Oh yea well Im the Grammar Jew!! mozeltov!!”
my point exactly…. enough w/ the spell checks u a holes
DISQUS!!!
oh my GOD the Boston media needs to find something better to do than speculate over Theo Epstein and disect every word out of the owners mouths.
The back and forth discussion – (and an “Illinois resident” thinking they saw someone who looks like Epstein in a Starbucks qualifies as a story?) is like watching a teenage girl decide what to wear to the prom. Just put something on already because we’re done caring!
I don’t think the Yanks will be caught short on pitching again this year, they will resign CC and get either CJ Wilson or trade for a good #2.
Could you start with Lind and Snider +++ for Votto. Snider is still young and talented enough to be attractive and Lind is coming off a pretty good year.
Maybe Lind + Snider + (pitching prospect) + (another prospect).
Reds don’t need Lind at all. We have Alonso to take over at 1B when Votto leaves. Your proposal is too weak.
Alvarez + Goose + Another top pitching prospect
Alvarez + Gose + McGuire + Hutchison seems fair-ish. Still needs more I think
Alvarez would have been my ‘pitching prospect’ as mentioned above.
What you’ve mentioned sounds pretty good but Id like the Reds to allow the Jays to discuss an extension as Halladay did with the Phillies.
Alvarez + Gose + McGuire + Hutchison seems fair-ish. Still needs more I think
I agree, the Reds need an ace pitcher like Shields, its time for Cinnci to get in the game or they will be left behind. Shields for Alonzo and Frazier or Mesoraco.
Reds don’t need Lind at all. We have Alonso to take over at 1B when Votto leaves. Your proposal is too weak.
Alvarez + Goose + Another top pitching prospect
The Jays should do whatever it takes to get Votto, he’s a great player! The problem is the answer is Ricky Romero!
I wouldn’t agree that they should do ‘whatever it takes’. Overpaying for Votto is not the answer, a fair package is reasonable but if you give up Romero your not any further ahead.
I think Alvarez, McGuire, Gose, Hutchinson is fair for Votto though neither team should do it.
Reds are better off trying to acquire a Grienke like ace with their remaining prospects and go for the NL Central title next year. I expect the Brewers and Cardinals to regress in 2012. It’s also unlikely they’ll get the top of the rotation starter they desire in trading Votto.
The Jays are better off keeping their young pitching, since their major league rotation needs a lot of work. Acquiring Votto does not put them into the playoff conversation – acquiring pitching will.
I agree, Shields is the answer for the Reds.
I think people are overlooking two key facts. First Jocketty said they have not had any discussions about trading Votto. Second, the Reds do not have to trade him right now. The Reds are holding all the cards right now. If a team wants Votto for 2 seasons, or even a year and a half then they will have to pay a king’s ransom for him. I understand they want to play Yonder but they have all offseason to work with him in left field to make his defense respectable at least.
It will take a top tier ML pitcher, who is under team control for several years as a starting point. I already understand this is already a high asking price to start with but once again, the Reds have all the leverage as things stand today.
shields + lee + colome. done
originally i thought all these votto rumors were the product of a bunch of blue jay fanboys, but it does seem to be hanging around like a bad smell. what jocketty said means nothing, he’s probably just trying to prevent mass suicide and backlash from the fanbase, plus prevent every “expert” in the media from giving their opinion and thus influencing the market.
i agree that it is entirely up to the reds to trade him or not, they still hold some leverage. however, i think everyone knows that eventually one of votto or alonso will have to leave town at some point. that fact kills a lot of your leverage right there because other teams know that if the reds want to get good value from both players, a trade is inevitable. i havent seen alonso play in left, but the general consensus seems to be that he lacks the physical ability to play out there. some offseason work may help with his reads and his throwing, but if he lacks the range to play the position, there’s only so good he can get.
based on the fact that votto still has 2 years left on his deal and the chances of resigning him are next to nil, now may be the time to trade him to get the best value. they can deal him for high end starting pitching right now if they think they can contend next year, or if they still dont think they can compete in that scenario, they can deal for a massive prospect package and get a jumpstart on a quick rebuilding phase.
either way there’s a lot of sense to a votto deal right now.
Check out my take on the Red Sox at http://thebestsoxblog.mlblogs.com
“Players on my team that I don’t want” for Votto doesn’t really work out as a fair deal.
Romero as top 10 pitcher = lol
No no no no no. The Reds want a GOOD pitcher, you see. Not Cecil. Not Drabek (he’s not good as of yet). Not McGuire. Try Romero.
btw I’m a Jays fan.
#6 ERA in AL this year. #17 last year. That makes him a #1 starter, if not an ace (which has been suggested is within his reach if he can develop even further). Has improved each year in MLB. Has done this in the ALBEast. See Halladay for why that matters.
look at his FIP/xFIP/WAR and then tell me he’s top 10 starter in the AL. He’s almost not even the best pitcher on his team. Almost.
Justin Verlander, CC Sabathia, David Price, James Shields, Jon Lester, Jered Weaver, Dan Haren, Felix Hernandez, Josh Beckett, CJ Wilson
Hell, add Matt Moore, Brandon Morrow, Brandon McCarthy, several others and he’s barely top 20.
you’re such a clown. shields and wilson may not even be in the AL next year, and i would take romero before shields anyway, and wager he ends up having a better career than wilson too. beckett resurged, but is old, and we’ll see what he does next year.
the rest of the names have either done too little to count (moore) or are not better than romero, and even then he’s top 15 in the AL with a bullet.
Sure, I’d take Romero’s contract before Wilson’s or Shields’, but that doesn’t change the fact that both pitchers did better than Romero did this season.
LOL at you calling me a clown. I’m trying to make an argument and all you can do is ad hominem? please.
jays have money, so romero + someone from the minors could happen, especially if they think darvish or wilson are suitable replacements. however, the jays also need rotation help, and trading their only one that’s be solid consistently, means banking on rookies and FAs…i don’t see that happening. which is why i also said i don’t see this trade happening until the deadline, or later…if at all. i don’t think the teams line up, and maybe a 3-way is possible, but that would mean finding a non-contender who wants jays prospects. maybe tbay/toronto/cinci could work.
Dude, you listed Brandon McCarthy and not Gio Gonzalez… you’re probably a clown
You’re right, TO and Cincy doesn’t really match up all that well. I could definitely see a 3-way deal if the Votto trade were to happen, which may not.
McCarthy: 2.86 FIP 3.30 xFIP 4.7 WAR
Gonzaelz: 3.64 FIP 3.73 xFIP 3.5 WAR
clown?
Edit: Oh, pardon me. I did not see Gonzalez’s amazing 16-12 record. How impressive.
Gio Gonzalez that pitches in Oakland? have you even seen that stadium?
It’s hilarious how you think that’s hilarious when it’s actually perfectly reasonable.
You would take Brandon McCarthy over Ricky Romero?
I never said that, I said Romero was not a top 10 pitcher in the AL this year, and Brandon McCarthy was one of the pitchers who were better than him this year. If you factor in age and contract, I’d prefer to have Romero, but performance wise, I’d prefer what McCarthy did this season.
Moore’s potential is much better than Romero’s. He’s definitely not proven, but I’ll take him over Romero for the next 6 seasons.
McCarthy posted better stats than Romero did this season. Far better.
what stats does Romero have that are better than Morrow’s? ERA?
I have nothing against Romero; I’m a Jays fan. But he’s not a top 10 AL pitcher. Could be if he keeps improving, but not this season.
Alright, say he’s top 15 pitcher in the AL. I won’t disagree.
in this world?
McCarthy: 2.86 FIP 3.30 xFIP 4.7 fWAR
Romero: 4.20 FIP 3.80 xFIP 2.9 fWAR
Romero had a much better season than Morrow.. I love Morrows potential, but performance wise it really wasn’t close..
The only thing that Morrow does, and what stats like WAR love him is because of his high k/9 rate..
you’re either underrating romero or overrating others. I’d say Romero falls in the 8-13 in the AL range.
By performance, you mean ERA, no?
no.
umm, yes it is. Hamels is a FA after 2012.
Matt Moore? Really?
That is just plain stupid. He’s young, his stats are already in the top 10 in the AL and he is getting better every year. You know that magical word ERA. What are you basing this on?
Matt Moore? He’s got potential but that’s about it at this point. McCarthy? Lulz.
Morrow? Yeah, you could make a case for him. Personally, I don’t buy it. Yeah, the advanced stats he is a great pitcher and is better than Romero, but I don’t buy it for a second. At least not at the moment. Morrow gets tons of strikeouts but it doesn’t make him better. Romero gets a decent amount of strikeouts and simply, he is effective at getting outs even when he is not pitching to contact. His FIP is also pretty high due to HR given up but most of them are solo shots. Just 3 HR given up with RISP. Has a pretty high HR/flyball ratio suggesting he was a bit unlucky in that regard but lucky with balls hit in play (though he also gave a ridiculously low amount of line drives).
Morrow is great at getting strikeouts which is important but he gives up a lot flyballs which lead to tons of extra base hits, he gave up tons of line drives and struggled to strand runners. It wasn’t just being unlucky, he was flat out bad in those situations, tons of pitches up and bad pitch selection/sequence and he always used to have a one bad inning where he blew up. He struggled to go deep into games.
Morrow was awful this season though he still showed flashes so I’m hopeful.
Romero is definitely better than any of those guys… at least right now. I’m not sure if he is a top 10 pitcher in the AL but he is around that 10-15 mark.
potentially anyways. Take him out for this season then.
not at all.
but innings pitched to me is a pretty big stat, romero pitched 225 innings, to Morrow’s 179.. and Romero only made 2 more starts than morrow, and had a 46 inning difference. Morrow still has a LONG way to go in terms of staying later in to ball games, he also had a bunch of games he didn’t even get out of the third inning.
Romero also has him beat in WHIP (1.138 >1.288) GB % (54.7>36)
So if you are asking me if I want a pitcher with a better whip, who induces more ground balls and will give me an addition 46 innings over a guy who is either really good or really bad but strikes out a ton of batters.. ya I’ll take option A all day.
Since when is fWAR and fip based arguments the be all and end all? Those starts are all seriously flawed. While “traditional metrics” assume the pitcher has complete control over balls in play, those assume they have NONE. That’s quite simply not true, and the truth falls somewhere in the middle (likely closer to none, but still some). Those stats have absolutely no consideration for the type of contact being made. Heck, they say Morrow was better than Romero, and anybody who watched all the games those guys pitched know that’s nonsense.
Okay. It just seemed weird that you would take out contract for Romero, but then factor in potential for Moore.
I did like your backing of your argument though.
This is, what, Morrow’s second year starting? IP is a moot at this point. GB rates are nice, but plenty of low GB pitchers are successful. WHIP includes hits, which Romero was extremely lucky on this season, and Morrow was unlucky on considering his FB tendencies.
It doesn’t really matter if the team wants to resign the player, it’s the player’s decision, and we have no idea of Hamels wants to test the market or not. To be frank, he’d be stupid not to.
so the jays would have been better off with Mccarthys 170 IP then Romero’s 225 ?
“Anybody who watched all the games those guys pitched know that’s nonsense”
That sounds more like nonsense to me. I’ve watched all the games they’ve pitched. Romero’s BABIP this season was extremely low due to his unsustainable LD rate, and Morrow’s BABIP was higher than it should be for a FB pitcher. Most pitchers don’t have real control over BIP, other than being FB prone or GB prone.
You think the Phillies should re-sign Hamels, so that they can trade him to the Yankees? Lemme guess: you’re a Yanks fan?
right, the second batch players can be ignored. I can definitely see Romero being better than Morrow, though I’d support the opposite. But I just don’t think Romero’s a top 10 AL pitcher.
No, it’s absolutely NOT too much. It’s one prospect who could still very much miss (his September notwithstanding) and has no position in the bigs for an established, front-line starter. I’m not saying the Yanks should take that, but the Phils should expect nothing less than an elite prospect (not that they’d trade him anyway)
So gonzalez was an FA too whats your point??
obviously if the Yankees brought him in it would come with an extension. They of all teams know there wouldnt be a situation where they couldnt atleast match an competitive offer.
seriously, you’re really not dropping this.. I garantee the reds don’t ask for romero, he’s already costing money..
they would ask for alvarez before romero.
Romero is the team’s ace. I hear where you’re coming from, but these kinds of trades never involve an MVP for a no.1. It’s just unrealistic. I’ll bet any money you like that if a Jays trade for Votto does go through this off-season that Romero will not be involved.
Yeah, personally I’d think so. If McCarthy was the same age as Romero and they both had the same contracts, I’d prefer McCarthy.
I never said Romero plus Lawrie PLUS a good prospect. Just Romero plus Lawrie. And this was what was proposed by Dave Cameron from FanGraphs, so clearly, he must also lack baseball knowledge.
I happen to think Frank is wrong, but at least he’s come out here and said what he believes, tried to provide facts to support that belief, and been classy if proven wrong. Oh, and xFIP normalizes for ballpark AND league, so you can forget about the “pitching environment” argument.
BY COMPARISON, all you’ve done is resort to ad hominem attacks. So maybe I’ll just lose respect for you.
lol what? The Reds aren’t that poor you know, and Romero’s pretty affordable.
It’s a tough call.. the Reds do have the great lineup and young-ish, high-upside rotation to potentially make a run when/if Pujols and Prince are out of the division next season. Texas found CJ, CLewis, and Ogando out of the bullpen and Harrison/Dutch were both formerly-decent prospects that looked like they weren’t going to contribute much. Leake, Bailey, Volquez, Cueto and Wood are still in Cincy (all age 23-25 with Eddy being the oldest at 28), so who knows what’ll happen next season.
Jocketty won’t pull the trigger and risk 2 competitive seasons unless he is blown away with MLB ready arms+elite prospects, and AA knows selling pitching for Votto won’t help the Jays find 4 quality arms behind Romero.
hmm, you have a point. Still seems like a slight overpay, but the Phils can definitely ask for Montero.
Romero: k/bb – 2.23 Morrow- 2.20
add the gb rate its really not even close..
and saying this is morrow’s 2nd year, whats your point? he still made 30 starts.
IP is not a moot point at all. Romero pitched more this season, allowing him to provide more value on the mound.
thats 50 extra innings for the bullpen..and if you watched the jays this year, that would have been a big deal
seriously, you clearly hate romero and you are super biased over your hatred..
I don’t mind you hating him, just not sure why you don’t just say it instead of pretending he’s not good.
lol what? where do you get 2.20? I have 2.94.
This is what a Reds fan (BigRedMachine) say they’ll trade Votto for
1. Marisnick
2. McGuire
3. Romero
4. Thames
the magical word fWAR
the Jays bullpen wasn’t terrible. You have to look past the blown saves.
And hating? seriously? Making arguments is hating? I never said he wasn’t good, but nowhere near good as his ERA suggests.
reds aren’t poor?? lol the whole issue of trading votto is so that they can bring in pitching which they can’t afford to get on the FA market..
Alvarez is cheaper has a higher ceiling and more years.
okay… and he’s a reds fan so there should be some bias in that…
substitute romero for Hechavarria and Carreno and thats a possible deal.
Good for him – we all have our wishlists – but AA would never do it. I like Votto as much as the next Toronto fan, but some perspective is needed.
if you can find a replacement for romero AA will take that deal. AA will not deal our ace for the next 10 yrs for a mvp 1B since a 1B is easier to find than an ace.
if you can find a replacement for romero AA will take that deal. AA will not deal our ace for the next 10 yrs for a mvp 1B since a 1B is easier to find than an ace.
Alvarez could still bomb. With Romero you know what you’re getting, a solid starter. I’m sure the Reds would prefer Romero over Alvarez
not really, if you look at fWAR
lots of ground ball pitchers maintain a low BABIP for their entire career, its comes with the whole being a ground ball pitcher.
that’s why the trade won’t happen. The Reds want more than what Votto is actually worth, since they really don’t have to trade him.
You went from a solid starter in the MLB to an all-glove SS/middle RP. That’s a lot of value lost.
lol you’re joking right?
I don’t see the argument here. Are you saying you’d rather have your starter not go as deep into games?
fWAR is a joke for pitchers. CC Sabathia has the highest WAR for AL Pitchers this year. Yes, that’s how bad it is.
looked at his career mark by accident . point still remains.
Romero strikes out less but also walks a lot less and induces more ground balls..
GB pitchers tend to have high BABIP in general. FB pitchers tend to have lower BABIP.
the jays bullpen ranked towards the bottom of every pitching category in the AL, the blown saves are just a result of their general crappiness
done on purpose..
They are already getting Mcguire. and every scout in the world has said he is a lock to be a good mid rotation pitcher.
For the jays to give up romero, their on field team would suffer greatly, and wouldn’t recover enough before Votto reached FA..
imo the only way romero gets included in a deal is if we land wilson. but even then i’d say its close to 99% not going to happen
done on purpose..
They are already getting Mcguire. and every scout in the world has said he is a lock to be a good mid rotation pitcher.
For the jays to give up romero, their on field team would suffer greatly, and wouldn’t recover enough before Votto reached FA..
imo the only way romero gets included in a deal is if we land wilson. but even then i’d say its close to 99% not going to happen
He doesn’t walk a lot less, their BB/9 are pretty similar. The K/9 are significantly different, enough to cancel out the GB/FB ratio in my opinion. If both pitchers end up pitching to their SIERA, the best estimator available, Morrow is the better pitcher.
It would depend on the combination of effectiveness and durability. fWAR accounts for that.
? why would this be a joke? Just because fWAR shows something that you don’t agree with, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. ERA has already been proven to be a poor estimator of talent. fWAR, on the other hand, is a lot more refined, though not perfect.
20th in ERA, 21st in FIP, 14th in xFIP. Not good, not terrible, slightly below average.
I appreciate that sports33. I’m just voicing my opinion on a public forum. I thought MLBTR was more mature than this.
My problem is that you’re using one stat as the be-all and end-all, then. fWAR is great, but it’s not perfect. Nothing is. That’s why you have to use peripherals like k/bb, k/pa, LD%, and strand rate, to name a few.
riiiight, but you’re only looking at this from the Jays point of view. For the trade to happen, the Reds have to also get what they want, and they want a good starting pitcher and good prospect(s) to boot.
I remain on the fence about it. Under most circumstances I’d agree that a player with a full two seasons left on their contract (with a team like the Reds) would not be moved in a hurry. But here’s what you have to consider with Votto:
1. His salary skyrockets in 2013; this coming season is the last year that he’s cheap. The leverage the Reds have diminishes by the day as soon as 2012 kicks off.
2. Pujols and Fielder will have found new homes soon, and the Red Sox, Yankees, and Phillies are all sorted at 1B. So how many teams remaining will a) have a need at 1B, b) have a contention squad, c) have the prospects to get it done, and d) have the financial muscle to take on the 2013 salary and possibly extend?
3. With Phillips’ contract up, the Reds have a chance to get cheap, young, outstanding talent in their team and dramatically cut the payroll.
These are things I’m sure the Reds top brass will – and should – be thinking about.
sure, but LD% and strand rate aren’t good measures of real talent. k/bb and k/pa are parts of what make up FIP/xFIP/WAR, so I just tend to go the easy way and use FIP or WAR
good points. I’m not exactly sure what the Reds will do really. I think they have enough talent to just go for it, but they may try to just blow it up.
good points. I’m not exactly sure what the Reds will do really. I think they have enough talent to just go for it, but they may try to just blow it up.
No problem. Your problem is assuming any internet community in which nameless faceless people are allowed to insult without impunity, will be more mature than this.
I hope you had a good time battling like 50 people. Must’ve been a fun night.
I hope you had a good time battling like 50 people. Must’ve been a fun night.
Ok, I’m sorry. I misread the comment and now feel pretty stupid. Again, sorry
no fwar for a pitcher who consistently can’t go deep in to ball games is as useful as looking at a utility players batting average
how is that not terrible?? and why use xFIP, we aren’t changing stadiums. so the bullpen will always pitch half of the games at the RC
how is that not terrible?? and why use xFIP, we aren’t changing stadiums. so the bullpen will always pitch half of the games at the RC
okay so besides the jays, and lets say shields/rays..
name another team that has a hole at 1B and can comfortably give up a pitcher of romero’s (relative to the team) importance off their roster?
Romero was seriously lucky this season. You can’t expect a .242 BABIP from a GB heavy pitcher. Also, pitchers mostly don’t have control over LD given up. His LD rate this season was far below what he gave up the past two seasons. He’s due for a serious regression (cliche’d, but its true).
Morrow’s problems with runners on base only surfaced this season. The past several years, starting or relieving, he wasn’t significantly worse with runners on base. He’s also due for a regression.
And yeah, I’d take McCarthy’s season over what Romero put up this season. Much better peripherals, even if you factor in ballparks and strength of offense.
how is that terrible? Then what do you call the 25th worst team? Abso-effing-lutely terrible?
If 15th is average, then 20th~21st is below average, not terrible.
Braves? Rangers (if they resign Wilson)? Giants?
fWAR takes IP into account.
Even better. They’re 16th in -FIP and 9th in -xFIP, adjusted for league and ballpark.
20-21 is the bottom 3rd of the league no matter how you dress its no where close to good.
but then again you’re the one who is willing to give them another 50 IP, despite being one of being one of the most over worked bullpens already.
Sure, I’m not saying he is a sub 3.00 ERA with those peripherals but he should still be around 3.50-3.60 ERA and was around that last year as well. His LOB% should go up next year but I also expect his HR rate to drop. Interestingly enough, he had a 70.2% LOB last year which is below average and managed a 3.73 ERA.
Morrow had a 69% LOB last year and 65.5% this year. His career as a STARTER is 68.7% so it’s clearly something he struggles with. I think it may have to do with some health issues and the fact he struggles as he gets around 75-100 pitches. His LOB% is much higher as a reliever. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t have to go deep into games and you can go all out as a reliever.
Lol okay, you can take McCarthy all you like. The same pitcher who never had a ERA below 4 or WAR above 2 before this season right? Hahaha. Facing crappy offense and having a 2.65 ERA in that massive ballpark sure did him good. I’ll easily take Romero.
Braves have freeman, so they won’t be trading for a 1B, they have bigger holes to fill.
Rangers? good one, but it would probably be one of their young pitching prospects and not an current contributor.
Giants? No chance they move madison, who else could they move?
No matter how you slice it, no team besides the rays because they are forced, would give up their 1st or 2nd best starter for votto.. not because its not worth it, but because they wouldn’t really be improving.
Braves have freeman, so they won’t be trading for a 1B, they have bigger holes to fill.
Rangers? good one, but it would probably be one of their young pitching prospects and not an current contributor.
Giants? No chance they move madison, who else could they move?
No matter how you slice it, no team besides the rays because they are forced, would give up their 1st or 2nd best starter for votto.. not because its not worth it, but because they wouldn’t really be improving.
rangers have tons of cheap fill-ins @ 1B, plus they have already traded to many of their prospects the last 2 seasons. giants have belt so that won’t happen either.
rangers have tons of cheap fill-ins @ 1B, plus they have already traded to many of their prospects the last 2 seasons. giants have belt so that won’t happen either.
In that massive ballpark he has an 82 -xFIP, which is park and league adjusted. Romero has a 94 -xFIP.
You know the Athletics only face one crappy offense in the AL West, right?
It’s closer to average than terrible. They were also 14th in SIERA. They’re not terrible. You just have a strong bias against them
lol ok, AA said the number one issue is his bullpen, but whatever, what does he know compared to you right? he’s just the gm
Well, this season the Angels were 10th in runs scored and the mariners were last, so I’d say they faced two crappy offenses.
How narrow will these things go?
WAR for Pitchers scapy1.Verlander (DET)8.62.Sabathia (NYY)6.93.Weaver (LAA)6.64.Beckett (BOS)6.25.Shields (TBR)6.16.Romero (TOR)5.97.Fister (2TM)5.78.Wilson (TEX)5.0Gonzalez (OAK)5.010.Lester (BOS)4.8 I am a bear of little brain can you explain the difference between fWAR and WAR for pitchers?
? Sabathia has been plenty good this season. It’s a coin toss between him and Verlander. Stop listening to ESPN and start looking at the stats.
fWAR doesn’t take defense and luck (for the most part) into account. It only outlines what a pitcher and a hitter combined to do. rWAR, which is what you posted, takes into account what the pitcher, the batter, and the defense did.
LOL… Maybe if it was a 2 headed coin and Sabathia called tails.
Um yeah Sabathia has been good this season, but do not compare his season to Verlander’s. Verlander 2011 > CC 2011, and it isn’t even really close
“BUT BUT fWAR says so, so it must be”
How about you start checking out baseball reference WAR?
Sabathia 6.9
Verlander 8.6
It’s a joke he takes fWAR that seriously. Verlander has more innings, more K’s, less BB’s , has allowed 56 less hits, and a better ERA.
Verlander allows more home runs and pitches in a more pitcher friendly ballpark.
rWAR uses RA. It counts the quality of defense.
It’s funny how I’m not allowed to have an opinion that supported by statistical evidence just because people disagree with it.
And there’s nothing wrong with that.
There is plenty wrong with that. If you think a pitcher has control over whether a ball goes for a hit or an becomes an out, you’ve got some catching up to do.
Verlander > CC in 2011 and it’s not close.
well, contract wise, sure. He’s not a better pitcher though.
You’re speaking as if your opinions are facts though.
it’s pretty actually pretty close. Look at their HR/9 and ballpark factors.
they’re not facts, but neither are the opinions of those people disagreeing with me.
So that’s what it comes down to? The pitchers who allow the fewest HR based on ballpark factors are the best in baseball?
lol, why look at runs allowed, K’s, BB’s, ERA, BAA, etc. if that’s all that matters?
Yes, they’re not facts, but it’s common sense
You might be the only person who thinks CC > Verlander because of 1 website.
And as I said, there’s nothing wrong with taking defense into account. Yes some of it is “luck”, but so are BB’s and K’s as they are in control from the man in blue.
Did I say that? I said Sabathia and Verlander were close. Don’t put words in my mouth.
In fact, you’re the one looking at only Ks, BBs, ERA, and BAA. Just like HR/9 and ballpark factors, they don’t tell the whole story
But you’re use fWAR as your source and on fWAR, CC > Verlander.
I didn’t ever say CC > Verlander. I said CC is very close to Verlander, and that it’s not “not-even-close” like many of you think.
“on fWAR, CC > Verlander.”
you’re being dishonest because you have a grudge against FIP. nobody involved in the production of fWAR would say that a .1 difference is meaningful. fWAR tells you that their seasons were equally valuable, and the argument for that proposition is easy to make
the argument for verlander’s year being way better is the difficult one if you actually think it through beyond ERA and hit totals
if you’re concerned with determining which individual performance was more valuable, you can’t pretend the two individuals played in the same parks with the same defense behind them. they didn’t and those difference bear out in the statistics of which rWAR is composed
if you’re just concerned with repeating your bias against a metric you’re unable to critically examine, by all means have a blast
You gotta be kidding me. I never said CC > Verlander, stop fricking saying I said that.
And common sense? I used common sense to prove that CC was very close to good as Verlander, and you completely ignored it.
BBs and Ks almost always only involve the hitter and the pitcher. hits will almost always involve defense as well as the above two. You can’t use that to properly judge a pitcher.
But you apparently rely on fWAR as your source which does indeed say that CC > Verlander (yes it’s close, but it still says CC > Verlander)
I rely on K/9, BB/9, HR/9, BABIP, LOB%, HR/FB%, GB%, FIP, xFIP, SIERA, and IP to make judgements, and the combinations of those tell me CC’s 2011 is pretty close to Verlander’s 2011.
right, but BP’s Quality of Opponents say Romero faced an average of .759 OPS and McCarthy .752. Not a huge difference.
As I said:
Verlander threw 14 more innings, gave up 56 LESS hits, walked 4 less, struck out more, had a BABIP of .236 as opposed to .318 for Sabathia, had a BAA of .191 as opposed to .253 vs. Sabathia, a WHIP of .31 less than Sabathia (Yes that’s .31, not .031)
Again, the only stat he trails in is HR/FB and an imaginary stat in FIP (yes it is imaginary considering it uses an imaginary number in 3.20)
Sabathia had a great year, Verlander had a greater year. I would be shocked if he does not win the Cy Young Award unanimously.
you and i have talked about this enough to know where the other stands. i actually agree with your conclusion about verlander, but not the way you’re arguing for it
there is a middleground between FIP (ignoring defense) and rWAR (failing to filter for defense): SIERA and tERA. these metrics account for everything FIP does, but also the kind of contact they give up (how hard they get hit)
verlander gets the edge in both of those metrics for 2011
And wile I know that the Cy Young Award doesn’t always tell a lot, a Unanimous winner should tell you he clearly was #1.
And as I said to Frank, Verlander leads in SIERA and tERA
tERA
Sabathia 3.75
Verlander 3.09
SIERA
Sabathia 3.14
Verlander 2.99
verlander can’t be given full credit for preventing those extra hits and thus the 14 extra innings means even less in terms of individual achievement
that’s really the only thing you’re appealing to – hits and the stats related to them. but hits are a question of defense and while none of us are able to sort out how much responsibility verlander should have, we know it’s not ‘all of it’. so your confidence in those stats is really excessive
don’t you think i know that? i’m the one who brought them up
that’s why i said – in the very post you are replying to – “i actually agree with your conclusion about verlander” =P
But common sense would tell you it’s not really that close considering Sabathia leads only in HR/FB and in FIP. Verlander leads in Every Other Category.
BB- Verlander (as in less)
K- Verlander
ERA- Verlander
BAA- Verlander
K/BB- Verlander
BABIP- Verlander
FIP- Sabathia
HR/FB- Sabathia
tERA- Verlander
SIERA- Verlander
Stats don’t lie
You may not have said it but your “evidence supported by statistics” implies that you support the fact that CC > Verlander. The problem with stats is that everyone can make them agree with their own assumptions or opinion.
I personally strongly disagree with all that you’ve said on this story where i usally agree with your opinions.
Brian Fantana: They’ve done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
Just use FIP, xFIP, tERA and SIERA. They’re the combinations of all the stats listed. FIP and xFIP think Sabathia is better, SIERA and tERA thinks Verlander is better (though tERA really hates Sabathia). I’m not saying Sabathia was better. I’m just saying it’s not a landslide win for Verlander. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.
lind would be well suited to move to the NL where hitting is a lot easier and you get free walks every so often