A few days ago we heard the Reds were willing to listen to offers for first baseman Joey Votto, though they weren't actively shopping him. GM Walt Jocketty shot that down today, telling MLB.com's Mark Sheldon…
"We haven’t talked about it. I wish that people would stop writing it," said Jocketty. "Why would we trade one of the best players in the game? We’re trying to win."
Votto, 28, just completed the first year of a three-year, $38MM deal that bought out all three years of his arbitration-eligibility. He will earn $9.5MM next season then $17MM in 2013 before becoming a free agent. A trade now would bring greater return since the acquiring team will get him for two full years rather than one or even less.
The reigning NL MVP hit .309/.416/.531 with 29 homers this year, numbers that are actually down across the board compared to 2010. Miguel Cabrera had two years of team control left when the Marlins dealt him to the Tigers, though it's not a perfect comparison because of the Dontrelle Willis factor. Adrian Gonzalez returned three good prospects (and a role player) with just one year of control left. Either way, Votto would represent a viable trade alternative to a team fearful of handing a long-term contract to Albert Pujols or Prince Fielder.
al gm’s deny the reports even when they know its true
it is true. They are shopping him. It woud take a #1 starter like a Johnson from Florida, and Alonzo moves in at 1st base. Expect something to be done at catcher to make room for Mescaro and my bet is they will leave 3rd base and leadoff spot alone after they resign Phillips!
I don’t think Brandon Phillips is a third baseman
Votto for Bautista means Alonso can play 1B, Alonso & Bautista > Votto & Rolen. Votto plays 1B for the Jays, everyone wins.
Why would Jays swap Votto for me?
WHY? I have a better and much more team friendly contract and everyone loves me in Toronto.
i hasnt thinkdid bout it either
The reason you trade one of the best players in the game is because you are not going to be able to pay and keep him after his current contract is up, and you would rather get prospects then nothing in return. Also, can we stop the Bautista for Votto crap, it’s never going to happen from the Jays point of view.
Actually…Reds will get a 1st rounder (most likely) plus a supplemental pick if they lose Votto to free agency. Teams with poor depth, weak prospect funnel, and low budget for signing draft picks will opt trade this type of player for prospects who are close to being major league ready.
Actually…Reds will get a 1st rounder (most likely) plus a supplemental pick if they lose Votto to free agency. Teams with poor depth, weak prospect funnel, and low budget for signing draft picks will opt trade this type of player for prospects who are close to being major league ready.
because you need starting pitching and you can’t afford to buy it. also because of alonso
The Blue Jays would count themselves lucky to get votto for bautista, he’s younger, cheaper for the next two years and has more upside. I dont understand why Jays fans think Votto for Bautista would be a raw deal, if i were Toronto, id do that deal every day of the week.
it just doesn’t make any sense from the jays standpoint
no one is out raged by the trade, it just literally makes zero sense from the jays standpoint, they get no better.
Let’s say that their “upside” has hit a plateau, we can call it pretty even with the slight advantage going to Bautista. Votto is cheaper next year but then more expensive in 2013 and after that he is looking at 20+ a year, so advantage Bautista. Votto is 3 years younger than Bautista. Also, Bautista plays a more challenging position and gives flexibility with his ability to play 3rd, if need be. Then there is the message that trading a guy that has hit the most home runs over the past 2 year and just signed an extension. It would send a terrible message to the fans and future players that wanted to sign with the Jays.
Actually Bautista is the cheaper of the two and Bautista is one of the best defensive right fielders. Bautista is also better offensively, and he has taken over as the clear leader on this team. Adam Lind and some prospects makes much better sense to the Jays.
Adam lind has close to no trade value to an NL team, especially one who has Alonso ready to play 1B
Bautista’s not good defensively. Not even close.
haha very funny..
uzr had as a good fielder in ’09, albeit bad in ’10 and ’11.
reference has him a good fielder in ’09 and ’11 (what do they use? Total Zone or something?)
He is usually near the top in outfield assists.
Using those all together I’d say he’s barely below average.
It won’t happen trust me.. Don’t have facts to back it up but it won’t happen.
Oh also hope Batista can play LF. Reds already have a very good RF.
Bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccceeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!
I doubt Jays fans see it as a “raw deal”. They probably see it more as a “zero sum” game. In other words, a sideways move where you really don’t move forwards or backwards.
we havn’t talked* about trading votto..come on mlbtr, i expect so much more from you guys..
It is a Jocketty quote could just be correct.
Or you could go to the linked Sheldon article and see that it is, in fact, incorrect. Walt Jocketty doesn’t talk like a character in Deliverance.
I dont see how Votto is a good alternative to Pujols, fielder…
Votto is going to cost a mini van full of prospects, and in 2 years is going to demand a similar salary to the one fielder is about to receive… and no team is going to give up their top prospects + for a guy they only want for 2 years..
I just think Votto is the most desirable player going forward. I don’t trust Pujols at age 32+ or Fielder aging well in general. The prospects hurt, by we have them in spades.
people trade top prospects for 1-2 years of elite production all the time. well not all-the-time, but enough to doubt the statement “no team is going to…”
plus if you have the money, it has to you give a better shot at re-signing (see Adrian Gonzales).
I know its going to happen, i just think most teams would rather have fielder/pujols as an FA
then give up prospects and then give votto a similar contract.
guys like fielder and pujols will cost you money and prospects either way because when they become UFA’s they are still type A FA’s. using those prospects ahead of time to ensure you get the guy you want and also have him locked up may be the better route for teams.
guys like fielder and pujols will cost you money and prospects either way because when they become UFA’s they are still type A FA’s. using those prospects ahead of time to ensure you get the guy you want and also have him locked up may be the better route for teams.
Then please tell me why during the trading deadline it happens ever year usually for only a few month rental.. wow ignorance.
wow ignorance? try reading the comment before you talk about ignorance..
It was about how Votto is seen as a cheaper alternative, when in fact he’s probably more expensive..
try some reading comprehension classes you tool
The only way that it makes sense is because Votto was born and raised in Toronto. Think about it two future hall of fame Canadians playing together, Brett Lawrie and Joey Votto.
unfortunately, just because he’s a local boy, the reds aren’t going to give the jays a discount.
Im pretty sure neither Votto or Lawrie will be hall of famers when its all said and done…
I know you prob here this a lot, but that’s premature.
I doubt you were screaming hall of fame after halladay or pujols first few years.
CIN gets
SP James Shields (1 yr/$4.5M with 3 club options)
SS Hak-Ju Lee
SP Alexander Colome
TB gets
1B Joey freakin’ Votto
might be an overpay
as much as I would love it, I just can’t see the rays trading cheaper players for a more expensive one..
maybe if they trade upton for some prospects, but still. it would be awesome though.
an upton trade is inevitable this offseason imo, and necessary for this deal absolutely
i’ve been preaching for the rays to do something awesome like that to put them over the top for years… they didn’t do it a few years ago, attendance is down despite being competitive, do you see them pulling the trigger now?
friedman is smarter than i am. if he doesn’t do it, he probably has a good reason. but given their current payroll, i think it is presently doable
if they forecast less revenue going forward, then maybe not. and seriously screw that so hard. LESS REVENUE after all they’ve pulled off? nuke st. pete
but that’s exactly the sentiment i’ve gotten from reading his latest interviews, he’s frustrated because seriously attendance still hasn’t gone up?
He’s proven he can field a team for next to no money, he’s proven that team can compete, the only thing he hasn’t proved is that winning= revenue. From that standpoint, it would be tough to see him taking on such a high salary…
perhaps, a 3 way deal involving the marlins, rays and reds.. with morrison going to the rays, upton and votto to the marlins and shields and some pieces going to the reds. ..
I have a feeling the marlins are going to get all nationals on us this offseason and do some stupid(er) things
maybe winning it all would make the difference? playoff revenue certainly makes a difference
i dunno. it’s fun to rosterbate and i still insist i’d love to have friedman’s job, but it’s undoubtedly a much more complicated and frustrating process when you’re actually in his position
If guys like price and longoria can’t put butts in seats I don’t know what will help..
a new stadium and stadium location might be a good starting point, but where the hell does that money come from?
actually you know what, i’m not so sure the money is that big of a deal after all. i forgot how much payroll they cut this season
2008: $43M
2009: $64M
2010: $72M
2011: $42M
i believe things are tight, but i don’t think they’re that tight after shields and upton and damon are off
ya but they also spend a ton more money on the draft this year didn’t they?
$11M this year, only $4M more than last year
wow i thought it would have been so much more given the 2,289 extra picks
They spent about as much as Jays & Red Sox. They did well drafting this year.
Votto makes sense for Tampa in that they are not afraid to lose a Type A player to free agency because they will spend money signing their picks. It seems they picked up Rafael Soriano two years ago with that intent.
$11M this year, only $4M more than last year
rays reported operating income (profit) of $7M in 2010. if they can spend $70M without losing money, and a votto-type acquisition brings them a title, and their attendance still blows … they’ll have as good a case as can be made for relocation/nuclear holocaust
actually you know what, i’m not so sure the money is that big of a deal after all. i forgot how much payroll they cut this season
2008: $43M
2009: $64M
2010: $72M
2011: $42M
i believe things are tight, but i don’t think they’re that tight after shields and upton and damon are off
Im glad you are not the Rays GM. Your 3 team trade has them receiving 0 players lol
I have morrison going there and obviously the trade is incomplete.
That is actually one of the most reasonable proposals I have seen. If the Rays are up for trading Shields it could be a fit. The only problem I have with it is that in 2013 Votto makes 17 million and is looking at a raise after that and the Rays would never pay someone that much.
money is clearly the issue, but shields is gone after next year either way. when you factor in damon and upton’s combined $10M, votto is the cheaper route next year
shields, damon, and upton combines for about $15M in theoretical 2012
votto costs 9.5. that’s 5.5 in savings
votto jumps to $17M in 2013, a $7.5M increase. that’s just $2M more than they cut with the acquisition in 2012
not a dealbreaker by any stretch. guyer is ready to take over in left, jennings can return to center, and joyce has right field covered. this is the benefit of having so much young talent. upton brings back at least one prospect without costing much production (if any)
shields is replaced by matt freakin’ moore, and they have pitching prospects a mile deep anyway
meanwhile, that lineup becomes formidable with the addition of votto’s bat
remember that manny was slated to be paid $2M this year. factor that in and the money matches up even better. there are other factors like raises for other players over the next 2 years, but the point is that it’s not implausible
Excellent points. It pretty much all hinges on them moving Upton. It could make a ton of sense but you never know how much money you want to tie up when you get 0 fan support and may have to cut payroll.
lol? Didn’t you tell me in the other forum that Romero & Lawrie would be a huge overpay? This is pretty similar to what I proposed.
Shields has THREE club options remaining: ’12 for $7m, ’13 for $9m, and ’14 for $12m. What a steal for the Rays.
overpay, but that’s about what it’ll take imo
if the jays don’t votto i hope the rays do, you guys are the only team i cheer for other than my jays
if the jays don’t votto i hope the rays do, you guys are the only team i cheer for other than my jays
What about Votto to Florida? The Marlins want to make a splash and they are willing to trade Sanchez. I don’t know the Marlins farm at all so I don’t know who they could add with Sanchez but it might be a fit.
The Marlins farm, simple put, should have absolutely no value for someone like Votto.
I think it should go along the Greinke trade.. Both are teams with 2 yr control of a player which they knew they would lose after that contract.
So, I see the Reds get a top 3 prospect, two B prospects
Votto’s value >> Greinke’s.
Votto’s value >> Greinke’s.
Why do so many people think gm’s are liars. Also I would love to see somebody explain how Votto for Bautista would be a good trade for the Jays.
Why do so many people think gm’s are liars. Also I would love to see somebody explain how Votto for Bautista would be a good trade for the Jays.
I hear the Marlins have stated that they would be interested if he becomes available.. Would Stanton or Hanley be available in this situation?
No.
No.
so the line up could look like this:
1- Phillips
2- Mesoraco
3- Alonzo
4- Bruce
5- Rolen/Fransisco
6- Heisey
7-Stubbs
8- Cozart
“We Haven’t Talking about Trading Votto” I don’t grammar either!
The big issue with the Reds is they gave Votto a very player friendly contract from their perspective. They will be paying market value (or better) for the next two arbitration years and got nothing for his free agent years – not even an option.
Financially, there is no incentive for anyone to trade for Votto knowing at best, they will break even if Votto continues to perform at a high level. An injury or disappointing season will be a disaster and then Votto can leave after 2013. It appears to me that asking for top talent in this scenario is futile unless Votto agrees to renegotiate with his new team.
Jocketty screwed up big time on this deal.
Votto would have gotten more from arbitration most likely than what he is getting this coming season 2012.
Also your argument about getting hurt is moot. You could say that about any top playing in the entire game and it would be true.
I honestly feel that it is not a terrible deal and if Votto Does not live up to the 17 million in 2013 then yes it would hurt the reds Payroll. It has been said that the payroll has been put into prospective include Joey’s contract.
I love how people think Castellini wont pay to win. This is not Carl Linder people.
Don’t mean to be a jerk, but “We Haven’t Talking”? Really? And it still hasn’t been corrected. This is absurd for such a big website. Wow.
Chill dude it’s a mistake
Pretty sure it is a typo. People need to get over it my God!!!!! yes I said his name in vain sue me…
Dontrelle Willis is nothing but a arm in the bullpen now
Trade Joey Votto for Felix Hernandez.
Makes perfect sense for both teams. The Reds stop getting harassed about trading Votto for manufactured stories, and the Mariners stop getting harassed about trading Felix for manufactured stories.
/joke (for those who may think I’m serious…)
You may be joking, but Votto to the Mariners actually makes sense to me. Not for felix but I would build a package around Pineda.
Trade Joey Votto for Felix Hernandez.
Makes perfect sense for both teams. The Reds stop getting harassed about trading Votto for manufactured stories, and the Mariners stop getting harassed about trading Felix for manufactured stories.
/joke (for those who may think I’m serious…)
Hmm. I wonder at the possibility of a three way involving the Reds, Red Sox and a third team. Move Youk to Cincy to play 1B and save the wear and tear on his body at a decent contract (plus coming home) plus prospects, Votto to that third team (Jays, TB, etc.) and OF/SP help tp Boston. I think the right combo of prospects and matching OF/SP pieces from that third team could make it an interesting and viable possibility.
Okay,,,,,I warned Red fans this in September that the Reds were trying to extend the contract of Votto by 4 years at 70 million dollars and if Joey balked he was going to be traded. The big deal in the works or should I say early conversation is Votto, Bailey and Saplette to Toronto for Brandon Morrow (a great shot at the #2 starting rotation) Rasmus (a good outfielder who will push Stubbs or play leftfield) and a top relief pitching prospect in Las Vegas AAA (Toronto) and a AA pitching prospect. Right now the chances of this deal is 50-50
just curious where did this rumor come from? Or did you make it up… Just curious?
Drabek + Jenkins +Thames + Teahen + $10MM for Votto!
Much better home run slugger I would give you. But nobody really gets pitched around like Votto. He had nobody behind him for protection. Plus who would you rather have with runners in scoring position and 2 outs? The most clutch person this year…Votto.
You don’t watch the Jays much do you? Bruce is still a much much much better protection than Adam Lind who hit about as well as an A-ball hitter in the 2nd half.
As for clutch…
Bautista WPA: 7.86 (league leader)
Votto WPA: 6.69 (4th in league)
Bautista:
Low leverage .960 OPS
Medium leverage 1.132 OPS
High leverage 1. 211 OPS
Votto:
Low leverage .880
Medium leverage .926
High leverage 1.328
Basically, these guys are freaking monster in high leverage situations and both were excellent at being ‘clutch’ this year.