5:18pm: The Brewers and Cardinals are also interested in Gonzalez, tweets Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated.
4:48pm: The Giants are negotiating with free agent shortstop Alex Gonzalez, reports Fernando Gonzalez of ESPN Deportes (passed along via Jim Bowden's Twitter account). The Giants had been rumored as candidates to sign such bigger-name free agent shortstops as Jose Reyes or Jimmy Rollins, but with relatively little payroll space to go around, the other school of thought was that prospect Brandon Crawford could get the starting shortstop job.
Like Crawford, Gonzalez brings strong defense (a career UZR/150 of 6.3, though it dipped to -0.4 last season) and not much of a bat (a .241/.270/.372 line for Atlanta last season). San Francisco could use Gonzalez and Crawford in a righty-lefty platoon next season, plus Gonzalez could be a valuble mentor to the 24-year-old.
The Braves didn't offer arbitration to Gonzalez (a Type B free agent), so Atlanta wouldn't receive a compensation pick if Gonzalez signed elsewhere. The Braves hadn't ruled out re-signing Gonzalez themselves to act as a veteran bridge to their own shortstop prospect, Tyler Pastornicky.
Oh he is right up Sabean’s alley. An aging player, with talent beginning to slip.
“beginning to slip” implies he had the talent to be a starting shortstop in the past…
What are you other options? Jack Wilson?
Craig Counsell of course. He’s only 41 in Sabean’s eyes.
Hairston? Punto? Both better options. Furcal as well…
Didn’t like 80% of their 2010 roster fit that description? It worked out. However, I agree that he’d be a typical Giant.
There’s reason they call it “lightning in a bottle.” I wouldn’t try replicating that strategy year in and year out and expect to get anywhere.
Gonzalez as a Cardinal would be great.. They need to start filling holes now as it should help with the Pujols deal.
Cardinals fans will cringe at the poor at bats Gonzalez takes on a regular basis. Will be Adam Kennedy type signing 2.0. NO THANK YOU
Eww, wouldnt enjoy that.. The guy has power though.. which we all know Kennedy does not.
Gonzalez = Tejada = Renteria = Sabean never learns!
What are you talking about? He learned well; never take the same old guy twice. As a GM, he knows that it’s all about mixing things up.
I’m sorry but Renteria was World Series MVP in 2010. How was that a bad move for Sabean?
You’re kidding me right?
You would rather save the 18 million and not win the world series?
Thank you gmen
So according to your logic the Giants wouldnt win without the Zito contract either.
I think it works a little bit differently when the person with the albatross contract ends up being the series MVP.
Considering Zito wasnt even on the playoff roster and Renteria was the world series MVP that makes absoluetly no sense.
For one, if you look at his line the year before signing with SF, it’s very similar to the one he had in SF. Sabean gave him 2/$18, the Reds gave him 1/$2. He probably could have been signed for half what he was paid.
Second, he won the MVP by default because he hit 2 home runs, one happened to be the one that ended it. He didn’t even have another extra base hit. Lincecum didn’t win because he didn’t have a good start in the first game and none of the other pitchers did because they only pitched one game.
Who cares how their $90MM roster was allocated as long as they won? Renteria made his $18MM because they won
It’s frightening how bad that logic is.
I’ve seen the 1993 Giants win 103 games w/o making the playoffs; 2002 Giants with 2 MVPs in Kent & Bonds not win the World Series; Florida Marlins buy 2 championships then dismantle; the Yankees over-pay for Carl Pavano & win the WS; the Devil Rays go the WS on $30MM payroll
So no it doesn’t matter how that money was allocated because Sabean has built lots of winning teams over the years, including 1 that recently won the WS. Renteria helped deliver a championship, he earned his money
So because of one swing of the bat that means he earned his 18.5M? He wasn’t a good player for us.
I think that all the 2010 World Series victory memorabilia paid his 18.5 million dollar contract.
It was still a bad contract. Sabean tends to hand out bad contracts, especially to vets.
For a team that never won a world series (in SF obviously) he could have earned $100 million for all I care.
Maybe you should root for the team across the bay they never spend on vets and are “loaded” with young talent.
Dude chill out. Just because I don’t agree with the contract that means I should cheer for the other team? Get over it man.
What’s your view on the Rowand, Tejada, Derosa contracts?
They obviously didnt work out. Some have like Santiago, Bell, Burrell, Affeldt ect….
You seem to dwell on the bad contracts and not realize that no GM is flawless.
Have you not enjoyed being in contention 10 of the last 14 years or going to the World Series twice and our first world series? We have been one of the winningist franchises since he took over
It seems as if you are more concerned about looking good on paper than the actual results
He tends to stick with the vets. Eventually you would think a GM would try to sign younger guys instead of players toward the end of their careers. He still hasn’t signed a big bat to improve the offense (that we’ve needed for years) other than trading for Beltran.
I’ll give him credit, he’s good when giving short one-year contracts, but when he hands out longer contracts, that’s where it starts to go bad.
All I was talking about was a bad contract he handed out and now you go on a rant assuming I’m not happy with the Giants. Stop assuming and just talk about what’s posted.
Well every post is what about Rowand, DeRosa etc….
If you continue to focus on the one negative aspect while ignoring everthing else including the results of course Im going to bring it up.
Also you cant really go out and just sign young players as they tend to be locked up. You have to trade for them and to get an impact bat that would mean trading lincecum cain or bum which would make us a mediocre team.
The other option is spend massive on someone, but as you have stated you do not like him giving out long term deals.
There were options to improve this offense though in the past during free agency and we didn’t get what we needed. Thankfully, players such as Pablo and Posey have been developed and are helping the offense. Others like Brown and Belt are also in development so that helps us out as well.
I don’t mind him handing out long-term deals, it’s just it has to be on the right player. He just picks the wrong guys to give it to.
GMen, I got into a similar argument with this SFRush guy – somehow he forgot that winning supersedes everything else
It still got you guys a World Championship so I wouldn’t complain.
He helped us win a World Series, but the fact of the matter is he still gave him a bad contract. That’s all I’m saying. Sabean did the same thing with Rowand, Tejada, and Derosa and it won’t surprise me if he did the same with Gonzalez.
I’m not disagreeing that he was overpaid or about how bad the Rowand and Derosa deals worked out but I do think that Renteria was a smart signing.
you forgot = Cabrera
Cabrera
Here we go again…
I approve of this deal. Sea Bass’s power numbers at SS are just what the Giants need.
Yeah, they’re also power numbers that will dissipate in the Giants’ cavernous park; something that his weak BA and horrid walk rate won’t help.
Left field is very fair to RH pull hitters. It shouldn’t affect Gonzalez terribly. He doesn’t have much of a platoon split for his career, so it’s not an amazing fit, but it all comes down to the price tag. If the jump in millions/years is big to move up to Furcal and Rollins, then yeah, you take the hit. You can’t go into 2012 with Crawford as your everyday shortstop. Not yet.
You can at least entertain the idea if your alternative is Alex Gonzalez as your everyday SS for a few million dollars more.
There have been no indications whatsoever as to how much this supposed deal could be for. It’s pointless to complain about the price tag before we know what it’s going to cost.
A little bit. But when you can get equal production from two different guys at two different prices, why pay more?
*I do like the plan to sign him to buy time for Crawford to improve though. If you’re signing Gonzalez because you think he’s better, well he’s not. But if you’re signing him so a prospect can have more time in the minors, it’s a good plan.
Crawford has never had better numbers in the minors than and aging Gonzalez did last year in the bigs so Id say equal production is quite a stretch
I know we don’t like to use UZR in one year samples, but Gonzalez’s was negative last year and given his age, it wouldn’t surprise me if his days of “great SS defense” were behind him.
In my mind an average defensive SS with poor batting skills is about as valuable as a good defensive SS with even poorer batting skills.
Assuming equal production from both is whitewashing the issue pretty drastically. There would be more to this move than simply “Gonzalez or Crawford.” This could also have implications for Fontenot, and how much and at what level Crawford plays going forward.
Again, really not worth complaining about until we see contract details and the non-FA arbitration deadline results.
I agree $1-$2mil isn’t a huge deal for a club with a payroll of $100mil (or whatever the Giants’ is), but money’s money. Gonzalez may hit better (and better doesn’t equal good), but his UZR last year (I know only a year) was negative and it wouldn’t shock me if age has caught up to his defensive ability.
His UZR was also -1.4 in 2005… and then went on to put up 4 seasons with a UZR over 5. Single season values for UZR are not good indicators of overall defensive ability; there simply isn’t enough data to draw good conclusions. It could be an indicator of decline, but when average seems to be an outlier for his career, he probably deserves the benefit of the doubt.
He wasn’t in his mid 30s in 2005 though, and that’s my concern.
If Alex only wanted 1M to 2M in salary then the Braves would re-sign him to mentor Pastornicky. My guess is that he signs for 2 years at 3M to 4M per season.
I dont get the obsession with Crawford. He is good defensively (I dont see great yet, as people claim as he booted some routine balls last year) and he had that nice Grand Slam when he was called up but he didnt hit .200 and has a career 266/331/403 minor league line. The guy has never hit so it would be a stretch to see him even approach that line in the bigs.
Considering the options (outside of Reyes and Rollins) I dont mind this very much. He is Uribe-ish to me. Not the greatest on base skill but can run into one which this team needs. Obviously not the most sexy move but I like the pop and defense behind our staff.
Precisely why you make a move like this. As I mention elsewhere in the thread, Crawford has little minor league experience since some major swing adjustments where he hasn’t been injured, and has only played sparingly against even AAA-level pitching. By signing an everyday SS so you can start Crawford in AAA, you can see what you have in him and give him a little more time to figure it out, without the expectations of playing at the big-league level. If he doesn’t produce in AAA this year… well, then you probably know what you have in him going forward.
I’m not obsessed with Crawford. I would rather see Keppinger at SS. But, while you are correct he might have booted a few routine balls hit to him, he made many great plays the avg SS might not have come close to.
The Giants should have been more serious about Uribe and they probably would not have collapsed at SS last season.
I wish they could find a way to bring Jimmy Rollins to SF. He grew up in Oakland, could mentor Crawford, and is pretty good too 😉
Keppinger can not play SS though. He could barely play 2B. If he had to move more than a foot in each direction he was toast.
Its probably for the best that Uribe didnt come back since he was hurt/terrible last year.
Id like Rollins but probably not gonna happen with the money and years he is likely to get
There’s no obsession with Crawford, there’s an obsession with hoping against hope that Brian Sabean will someday learn that continuously signing old, declining veterans with atrocious on base skills so that they can block prospects is not a way to build a successful offense.
you nailed it!
Present company excluded, there are a lot of Giants fans who are obsessed with Crawford for the mere fact that they think he looks like John Stamos. smh
A shortstop that can adequately defend (most of the time) and can’t hit? BRANDON CRAWFORD IS STILL UNDER TEAM CONTROL WE DON’T NEED TO PAY MORE FOR ANOTHER ONE.
friggin guy never learns
Why do people react to rumors like this? You act and talk like it’s a done deal. 99% of the rumors on this site never come true. Anything to bash Sabean right?
Given their ages, I really don’t see how Gonzalez is much of, or if he even is, an upgrade over Crawford. Crawford still has some offensive potential (granted not great potential) whereas Gonzalez is on the decline. Both are pretty good defensively but again, Crawford is getting better, Gonzalez is on the decline.
He’s really fun to watch field, but that’s about it. He’s very flashy
Sabean wanted to sign him years ago, but he wanted Alex’s career walk rate to dip below 5% first.
True but you can’t argue with how much more upside Crawford will have with a mentor such as Gonzalez.
Meant to post that as a reply to someone.
Wish we’d wait until after Dec. 12th! If someone like Ryan Theriot became available, he’d be a FAR better option.
This is why I said yesterday, just keep the Kip for another year.
Be careful what you wish for, your team might end up with him…
Says the guy who’s clearly never seen Ryan Theriot play baseball.
He must be gritty
Some people like to complain. Let them complain.
Not a fan of the new timestamps. I’ve changed my mind about the like/edit/reply button.
NOOOOOOOOOOO
this makes us getting Jerry Hairston sound a whole lot better
If it’s for under 2M and he splits time with Crawford, lefty/righty matchup thing, then I wouldn’t mind it. Wait… yeah I would. He sucks. I wonder if they could trade Affeldt, Ramirez, and a mid level prospect in the same deal for someone worth while.
If it was under 2M, it wouldn’t be that bad, but we all know it won’t be for that. Middle Infielders this offseason are getting more money than they’re worth. I can see Sabean giving him a 2yr/12M offer.
Short answer – no, they couldn’t.
Yeah probably not. By “worth while” I just meant someone better than Alex Gonzalez. It’s probably going to be another frustrating year.
I think this would be a good move. They’re obviously not going to sign Rollins or Reyes, so why not? Solid defender with a little bit of pop, can platoon w/ Crawford. The Giants lost last year b/c of a historically bad offense and a bad defense. Shoring up the defense is a HUGE priority. With Posey and Freddy Sanchez back, Belt playing every day, Melky, Sandoval…..an offensive stud at SS is not necessary (and is very rare). All you Sabean haters keep hating, he’s only delivered 8 playoff appearances, 2 World Series, and a World Series championship. Ya, pretty awful.
Adam, I agree with you to a point – that being they are saving their money at SS to sign another outfielder with some pop. I think they needed a vet to platoon with Crawford in case he doesn’t pan out. I didn’t see much out there within a decent price range for a SS. Hopefully they can trade some extra bullpen arms for an up and coming bat. Note the word “hopefully.”
yeah i agree with you, maybe trying to get willingham or beltran to play LF?
As a dbacks fan… Sabean is awesome.
Agreed! Why, just 2 yrs ago he won a World Series. Hope JJ Putz leads you to glory 😉 winky face
As a dbacks fan… Sabean is awesome.
If there is an advantage to this deal, it will be that Crawford can hopefully have a full year in AAA to try and improve and refine his swing so that he is actually major-league ready. The effort was admirable on his part, but he really has spent little time in the minors, and what he has had was mostly either playing injured or in high-A. In paying Gonzalez, you are effectively buying time.
Thank you, Giants.
Sincerely,
Frank Wren and the Atlanta Braves
For eliminating you from the playoffs twice in the past few years? Your welcome.
We eliminated ourselves last year . Unfortunately , we were our own worst enemy .
I don’t know really how SF eliminated in 2011 – I blacked that part of my memory out – but in 2010, it wasn’t SF that eliminated us, it was Brooks Conrad.
Ah Brooksy . I Had almost forgot . But am still trying to forget .
Don’t disparage Brooks like that!!! He is a saint here in SF, that man deserved a playoff share… but in all seriousness, he really blew it, although without the rash of injuries you had he never would have been playing
Agreed. Brooks is still useful as a pinch-hitter, but it’s frightening knowing Steve Bartman is living inside of him.
It was the Giants – that’s why they play more than 1 game.
xoxo,
World Series Champion
Your post was deserving…..2 years ago .
Flags fly forever! Boom. In all sincerity, Brooks is a legit guy off the diamond, sad it happened to him
I can understand you being bitter about Zito’s contract causing you to go after A-Gonz, but don’t blame me that the Braves look for someone a little more of an offensive wallop. Honestly, ATL and SF are too very similar teams separated by about $30 million and a larger park in SF (and better attendance).
And frankly, I don’t think SF will even get him. There’s always Rentaria. Have you considered Rafael Belliard?
Sabean seems like a terrible GM, makes me wonder how he ended up with Lincecum and Cain.
Sabean’s career w/ Giants (12 years): 8 winning seasons, 2 World Series, 1 World Series championship. I guess you could call that ‘terrible’. I have some other adjectives in mind that might be more accurate.
Does make me wonder though.
If a GM signs/drafts a few players that end up gelling together and playing over their heads, then we automatically think they’re a good GM, but what about GMs that basically just had one run of success with one set of players, like Billy Beane. When he had the 3-headed pitching machine of Hudson, Mulder and Zito all pitching like CY candidates and had Tejada and Giambi in the lineup, sure, they were a behemoth.
Since that set of players slowly came apart, the team has declined more and more.
Which is the better indication of Beane as a GM? The late 90s, early 2000s Moneyball darlings? Or the recent teams that have have been finishing well behind the division leaders each time?
I’m not saying I think Sabean’s a bad GM, but I think it’s really hard to judge a GM since they make a decision to sign a player and then it’s up to the player to either play up to or outplay their contract or to end up as a terrible investment that didn’t live up to expectations.
Decent points, but I think that when a team is terrible, a lot of the blame is put on the GM, and when a team is good or even wins it all (2010 Giants), his players played “over their heads”. It’s a thankless job.
And Sabean has had two completely separate runs at success. One with Bonds, which culminated in the 2002 WS, and this one, which includes a WS championship and isn’t over yet, with a completely new set of players.
Sure he overpays for old players past their primes, but I respect the fact that he doesn’t give absurd long term contracts like Ryan Howard’s, for example. I know what you’re thinking….Zito. If you’re a Giants fan you know that was all Peter MacGowan and was probably in spite of Sabean’s better judgement.
Regardless, he has a long history of success, and yes it’s true that judging a GM’s true skill level is difficult to do.
The Giants have had good teams, but after 2010, I think Sabean is getting way too much credit. He inherited Bonds when he became GM and just put 1 aging vet with only a good year or two left in him around Bonds after another and it wasn’t enough. Lots of the blame in 2002 can go on Dusty (deservedly), but the GM still takes some heat too. Another point people forget is that until the Giants revamped their scouting system a few years back, they were drafting/developing AAAA players like it was going out of style. Sabean started as a scout, so evaluating young talent should be his forte. He’s had ups and downs, but also had a good amount of help on the upswings. Giving him all the credit for success (even in 2010, he made great moves but there was a lot of luck on his side) is over-stepping it IMO
jeff kent is that aging vet with one or two good years left?
more like Ellis Burks, Marquis Grissom, Michael Tucker, Ryan Klesko, Andres Galarraga, Kenny Lofton, Shawon Dunston, Steve Finley, etc. That’s not even close to the whole list, so I think the point still stands
dont understand how burks is considered bad, lofton helped the pennant push. dunston was a bench player. Finley and tucker were crap yeah
I think Beane does the best with what he has. He takes ‘has-been’ players and resurrects their careers, then watches as the owners don’t invest in them. His Moneyball strategy worked to a point, but it was the pitching that really carried them, just like the Giants.
I saw that coming, but despite all that many of his moves and his inability to develop a respectable offense lately make me wonder. And I’m hardly the only one to point this stuff out…
he drafted them? just like how he drafted wilson, sandoval, posey etc? you’re grasping
Am I really grasping?? I’m just wondering how the same guy that can draft so well can also hand out the Zito and Rowand contracts and completely fail to put together decent offenses. Maybe he has a really good scouting department.
i fully supported this posting until i read the last two sentences, then i cringed again
If the Giants are going cheap with the SS, that’s one big competitor out of the Rollins/Reyes sweepsteaks. Gotta love that as a Phils fan.
Giants have never been in on Rollins or Reyes.
Exactly, but for some reason this author believes so.
The Giants were never rumored to go after Reyes or Rollins. I don’t know what this guy is talking about.
270 OBP, that’s all I’m gonna say. Good defense but awful bat
That’s what Sabean gets off to.
Gonzo is a guy your pitchers are gonna love , and your batting coach is gonna hate . The guy honestly should have won the Gold Glove last year . He rarely made mistakes at the position and made some plays that probably wouldn’t have been made with someone else playing in his spot . That being said , don’t count on him to come through with runners on , or a runner at 3rd and only 1 out . He will however hit a HR once in a while and give plenty of hustle . He may have a decent year next year . The last month of the season last year , he was one of the best hitters for the Braves hitting around .300 and hitting 3 or 4 HR’s .
Plenty of hustle? You must be thinking of Gonzo’s neighbor on the diamond, Mr. Uggla.
No . Uggla and Gonzo both are guys that give it their all on the field and on the basepads . Gonzo is pretty good when he is able to get on base (I realize that it’s very few and far between) . He runs hard around the bases and hustles down to first on ground balls . His hustle is not an issue . His ability to take a pitch , have better pitch recognition , and move runners or bring them in from 3rd with less than 2 outs are an issue .
We must not have been watching the same player. I seem to remember Gonzalez hitting a ground ball and slowly pouting his way up to 1B on MANY occasions. He actually could have gotten on base a couple more times if he had actually hustled up the line. He does NOT run hard if he hits what he thinks is a routine ground ball. Now, Dan Uggla gives 100% at all times – even when he was struggling at the plate last year.
Gonzalez ops+ last year 76, Crawford’s ops+66. Just save the money and let Crawford play. Plus if they sign Gonzalez, Fontenot gets non-tendered.
Gonzo would be an upgrade at ss for the Brewers but that isn’t saying much when Yuni B was your last ss
I actually like this a lot. He’s cheap, he’s got a chance to have some offense, and he’s solid defensively. If they can bag em, more power to em.
Why not go after Hiroyuki Nakajima? He looks like a better fit at SS right now. We can’t afford Rollins or Reyes, and he is better than the rest of what is out there. 15-20 HR power, 15-20 SB speed, good average and OPS.
Giants. Please. No. For the love of all things baseball, no.
Get Beltran. Forget about a slightly-less-crappy-and-veteran-version of Brandon Crawford. Just get Beltran, dudes.
Every pitcher in the national league will throw him a outside pitch and he will swing at it.
bad sabean! bad!
If I’m the Cardinals, I think I’d still rather have Furcal.