The Red Sox haven't spent much on free agents this offseason, but new GM Ben Cherington did improve his bullpen via trade while also clearing salary by moving shortstop Marco Scutaro. The latest on the team:
- Commissioner Bud Selig still hasn't received written arguments in the Cubs-Red Sox Theo Epstein compensation case, tweets MLB Network's Peter Gammons. Gammons moderated the Hot Stove Cool Music panel on Monday with both Epstein and Cherington. Cherington said that he expects direction from the commissioner's office soon, writes Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe. Explained Cherington, "There was an expectation when Theo left that the Red Sox would receive significant compensation for allowing the Cubs to hire him and we haven’t been able to agree on what 'significant compensation’ means.'"
- The Red Sox have potential arbitration hearings for Alfredo Aceves and David Ortiz, and Cherington told MLB.com's Evan Drellich he'd prefer not to publicize the dates. Ortiz's hearing is tentatively scheduled for mid-February, reported Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports yesterday. Cherington doesn't think the potential impact of the hearings would be significant, but a $3.85MM spread on Ortiz does seem significant to me for a club that recently unloaded its starting shortstop in a trade that appeared financially motivated.
- As part of a Sacred Heart University lecture series last night, Epstein said that in retrospect it wasn't necessary for him to leave the Red Sox for three months during the 2005-06 offseason as a means of determining what the organization stood for (WEEI's Ryan Hannable reporting). Yankees GM Brian Cashman, now a potential trading partner for Epstein, also attended the event. Tyler Kepner of the New York Times has quotes about the executives' observations of each other while competing in the AL East.
- I've begun collecting lists of 40-man roster players with less than five years of service who are out of options. For the Red Sox, I've confirmed it's Michael Bowden, Felix Doubront, Andrew Miller, Darnell McDonald, Franklin Morales, and Matt Albers.
Does Hendy joining the Yankees count as compensation?
Josh Vitters should be sufficient. Cherington needs to stop acting like a front office exec. is worth a #2 pitcher or cornerstone SS.
No way the compensation should be anything higher than an A baller or cash. Epstein would have been a lame duck GM with the Red Sox and everyone involved knows it.
Maybe I’m missing something, but why didn’t they work out the details before agreeing to this? Now they have to bicker over it.
Cherington is just upset because he doesn’t want to accept that there is actually a pretty close precedent in Andy McPhail. Cherington wants even more than the Twins got for McPhail. Apparently Epstein’s “rock-star status” alone is worth a B level prospect.
Did they both agree to significant compensation before allowing permission to be interviewed, though? Cubs want to pay for hiring away a front office employee, but the Sox want compensation for what they agreed upon before allowing Theo’s interview.
$200,000 and Class A pitcher Hector Trinidad was considered significant compensation.
It seems the real issue here is that Boston’s idea of significant compensation is something on par with trading away a hot rookie player, not someone whose greatest contribution on the field can only be seen through who he drafts or signs.
I am curious where the “significant” compensation is being reported from? The press release which was a joint statement from the Red Sox and Cubs states” The Clubs also have reached an agreement regarding a process by which
appropriate compensation will be determined for the Red Sox”.
Are people out of their minds? Josh Vitters? Is this a joke? Boston messed up by letting him walk and by doing that, they were ok with whatever they got in return. Give em a no-name minor leaguer and call it a day. Or throw some cash at em to shut em up!
Not sure if you’ve been keeping up w/ the Cubs farm system, but at this point Vitters looks like he may be that no-name prospect. Dude’s full of struggle, but has a big name for being a top pick. Sounds like the perfect compromise.
Yep, and the new third base prospect you want to hype is?
And before you say Baez, a switch to third this early would definitely be a waste of his potential.
So unless you have a magic ball that tells you that Garza and Byrd will be enough to get back a certain 3b from the Tigers, what on earth are you talking about?
Baez won’t stick at SS. Don’t kid yourself.
That is my feeling also and comes from watching his struggles at Daytona in 2009-10.. He had little clue at the plate.
I would like to see Cherrington/Selig saddle Epstein with Jenks and the 6m left of the contract that Epstein gave him and THEN someone like Vitters if that is all that they are bickering over.
If the Fish can give up 2 good people, from a farm system on the rebound for a useless manager like Guillen, then the Cubs should have to pay for one of the top General managers at least who have a lot more sway on a team than dos a manager who nobody would realize exists if it was not for his constant rambling in the press.
i don’t usually click through on many posts, but the times article is pretty great
Does no one want to do their job and make a decision?????
As compensation, Theo should assume the abysmal contract he signed John Lackey to. This would allow the Cubs to keep all of their top prospects as they rebuild for the future and would clear “significant” financial flexibility for the Red Sox to sign E-Jax and maybe take on some salary in an mid-season trade.
Thats ridiculous. First of all there will be no major league players involved. Secondly, 40 man roster members are safe also. You saying that Theo should keep Lackey is like me saying that Jim Hendry should bring Soriano with him to NY.
To the rabid Red Sox fan, they think this is appropriate. They get rid of a bad contract and Yankee’s take on a bad contract. So it’s win/win for them.
You got it rabid cubs fan.
The other thing no one is mentioning as that Theo went from a GM to Prez of Baseball Operations. Aren’t you excused from your contract if you take a better job w/ another org? Does Cherington think the Cubs should pay a posting fee?
Hey Bud why don’t you just get a little collusion going like you’ve done against the players. I am sure you can get some Mickey Mouse compensation done. May not be fair, but that’s what you’ve been found guilty of in the past.
Memo to Theo and the Cubs:
Before you were originally hired to be the GM of the RedSox, the owners of the RedSox had a deal in place with the Oakland A’s to hire Billy Beane (who was still under contract to the A’s). RedSox compensation to the A’s? Supposedly Kevin Youkilis. Beane backed out of the deal after agreeing to become the Sox GM. Would someone in the Chicago or Boston media ask Theo if he remembers this situation and pin his backside down with a clear answer?
There’s no way the MLBPA allows a 40-man roster player be part of the compensation, or any other minor leaguer on a big-league deal for that matter.
It’s been said many times that [the Red Sox in 2002] actually had agreed to trade Kevin Youkilis for Billy Beane, but that’s actually not true. I was going back over this the other day. It was really weird, because Billy was actually negotiating with Paul DePodesta, who was going to take over Billy’s job in Oakland. So Billy was acting as the Red Sox general manager and DePodesta was acting as the A’s general manager, even though neither one of them was already in his position.
In the end, Billy said to Paul, ‘Look, there are only three players here at that time in the organization — Kevin Youkilis, Hanley Ramirez and Kelly Shoppach. I can’t give you one of the three real assets in the organization. And if you hold out for it long enough, then you’re not going to get the general manager’s job. So we have to work it out so we all get what we want.’
cool memo bro
I thought I was very clear that I wanted Theo’s explanation of the situation. Are you citing Theo? If so, please provide a link.
Didnt you read the new policy on here? No posting of links will be allowed.
Ok, cite a source (without a direct link)!
first day on the web? copy the first line of the quote into google. gammons is the source
Then why didn’t you start your post with “Peter Gammons has stated..” Usually a good idea to cite your source even if you can’t provide a link.
good tip. i’ll pass it along to the guy i was replying to in the first place who asserted youkilis was agreed on as compensation
Try re-reading the original post which states “supposedly Kevin Youkilis.”
“usually a good idea to cite your source even if you can’t provide a link”
source: you
My or anyone else who uses the qualifier “supposedly” makes it a guess. So, rather than use my guess or your second-hand sources, let’s ask Theo about any first-hand knowledge he has of the player or players that would have been going to the A’s.
sources > guesses
Direct knowledge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sources or guesses
no, you didn’t ask for any explanation from theo of any situation. you wanted someone to ask theo if he remembers a situation you described – in which youkilis was agreed upon as compensation to the A’s for billy beane
you got your facts wrong, though, which is probably among the reasons nobody has asked theo about it
I stated “Would someone in the Chicago or Boston media ask Theo if he remembers this situation and pin his backside down with a clear answer?” Seems to me that Theo has thoughts and info on the Beane situation. The trick is to get him to answer specifically. Your reliance on “second-hand” sources (yes, in this case even Peter Gammons would be a second-hand source(s)) belies your wanting to hear from Theo.
right. i don’t want to hear from theo; you do. but not only would you be asking him about something that didn’t happen, you’d be asking him for a – get this – second-hand account. epstein was not a part of the beane-depodesta negotiations. iirc he wasn’t even around until after they’d concluded
Epstein was part of the RedSox front office then – and my first question to him would be what did he know “first-hand”. I really don’t understand why you seem to be hesitant that Theo shouldn’t be asked questions about a job he eventually took because the first choice for the job reneged -yes, Beane had accepted the RedSox job but reneged – did Theo have direct knowledge of the player or players that were to go to the A’s? What is so hard for you to understand?
your fixation, mostly. in the first place, the beane acquisition isn’t comparable to epstein’s by the cubs. beane was signed through 2008 – which means the A’s would be compensated for six years of service – while epstein was signed for one. so even if youkilis were the agreed upon compensation for beane, that would not imply that similar compensation is due for epstein
moreoever, there are multiple sources that conflict the youk-as-comp story. gammons is one. you want to downplay him as ‘second-hand’ (though your proposed source is no less so), but he is well-known for his insider status where the red sox are concerned. there’s plenty of subjects gammons should be ignored on, but this isn’t one of them
the other source is larry lucchino – the guy who hired theo in the first place and subsequently promoted him to the GM position after the beane debacle. what do you expect then-assistant GM epstein to know about it that the guy who was actually hiring beane did not?
Again, why are you fixated on the idea that Theo should not be asked questions about his direct knowledge, if he has any, of player compensation from a team that he worked to a team that was giving up their GM?
i literally just told you why
You didn’t tell me anything of substance that addressed the question. Why shouldn’t Theo be asked questions on the topic? He might have direct knowledge of that situation but we surely won’t know unless someone asks him. Your tangent topics add nothing to the discussion.
shifting the goalposts, what a surprise
there’s no reason to believe he has any information that larry lucchino lacks. the youkilis issue is settled and irrelevant
Let’s hear it out of Theo mouth rather than your mouth!
Boston should have thought about that before they let him walk, and discuss compensation later.
Should’ve, could’ve, would’ve but didn’t and now it’s up to Big Bud to decide.
Boston shouldn’t get much of anything. Theo was basically already fired and replaced before the “trade”. What else were they going to do with him?
Red Sox/Cubbies negotiations – Cubs “I’ll give you a huge reward (that we’ll negotiate after the fact) if you shoot yourself in the head!” Red Sox *BANG!*.. thump!.
Let’s see here:
-Theo Epstein was going to be a lame-duck GM that had absolutely ZERO chance of resigning with Boston.
-Cherrington in his first year is almost certainly making less than Epstein would have been making.
-Given his impending status, it is unlikely that Epstein alone would have had much to do witht he draft.
-If the Red Sox had NOT given permission for Epstein to talk to the Cubs, then the return would have been ZERO when he walked at the end of the season in which he had the smallest amount of influence possible gor a GM.
At this point, any compensation at all is almost substantial. The idea that the Cubs should cut their throats and bleed out their whole farm is a joke. Money and any one prospect not in the top 20 should be enough – and is significant.
If Bud Selig is so concerned about executives bolting with years left on their contract, then the new team should be responsible for picking up the tab for all of the years the executive still had remaining on his deal.
How much did Epstein have left on his deal? $4 million? $5 million? Let the Cubs pay that, and call it a day…
Aren’t the Cubs paying that already?
How do you like the idea of bringing “The Best GM of All Time” back to Red Sox and call it a day? That way you have your precious back, Cubs won’t worry about compensation, they already have GM on Hoyer and who cares much about president of organization since Cubs already looking for #1 pick in 2013.
Epistein will just have good memorable one year in Red Sox and come back to Cubs free this November and everything is good. Wait… Epstein was supposed to make 5m with Sox this year, no? maybe it would force Sox to close out this offseason. This would be really good. Cherington loses his job. Epstein takes over as one of the most lame-duck GM of all time, more like paid vacation, then come back and everyone laugh out on Sox fan. I would love it. To be honest, with all those albatross contracts Sox had done in years while blaming Yankees as evil empire, it is so obvious they are trying to play Moneyball, offering 5m to Jackson who would surely tell “Are you out of your mind?” in a nano second, looking for Matt Garza or Castro as compensation for lame-duck GM who would get higher position while other ball clubs usually let them go free if it means they are getting promoted.
Sox would be the first sport club ever in history asking for a moon for lame-duck GM. Not even football -which sells pretty much everything- clubs do that. When “Special One” went to Read Madrid, did Inter Milan ask for Christiano Ronaldo in return? They never did and everyone would think it as a great definition of “lunacy.” That’s what Sox is doing right now.
There were many stories about how much Sox loves chicken, beer and video games.. wait.. maybe they are thinking this is MLB 2K11 trade proposal or something.
Although I agree with you, this probably ends badly for the Cubs. When have we ever seen Selig make a rational decision? I wasn’t worried until it was put in his hands.
Bingo, amen, bulls eye, exactly, you’ve got it, perfecto, 100% on the mark. The next time I see Chairman Bud makes a fair, rational, unbiased decision will be the first time.
And by favoring the Red Sox, Chairman Bud gets to do (another) favor for his buddy Larry Lucchino and advantage the arch rival of the Yankees who Chairman Bud hates so much and tries to disadvantage at every possible turn.
One thing we can say with certainty. It should never have gotten this far, and whatever resolution Selig imposes, it will be likely be seen as unfair by half the population. I’m for him deciding a quickly as possible, so we can get to the rage and the crowing on specifics. And if it’s going to be a serious prospect or significant regular, it’s the only fair thing to do for both teams, because of the way it impacts their rosters. Get on with it, Bud.
Give them Soriano.
If players win in arbitration, do teams have any right to say “no thanks,” and let the player walk?
Not exactly. The contract is non-guaranteed, though. If the player is cut before the season begins, only a portion of the awarded contract is payable.
Guess what everybody? No one but Selig knows who goes to the Sox.
Great article about Theo and Cashman. And Cashman makes it 100% clear and confesses candidly that the Yankees couldn’t continue to be run as they had with loyalty to over-the-hill players coming first if he wanted to have the Yankees do anything other than watch other teams celebrate World Series wins.
That’s why he fought so hard to not do that with Jeter. Unfortunately, the Steinbrenners and Levine had NOT learned that lesson yet. Hopefully they have now or will soon — or all Yankee fans will continue watching other teams’ success.
And as for 2009, the Yankees only won because an unusual schedule allowed CC (while he still had two functional knees) to pitch three so often and ARod and Matsui went on historic hot streaks. It was a total fluke. Not that other teams don’t go all the way based on flukes, but it was not, in my opinion, reflective of outstanding decision making and any indication that the Yankees had turned the ship around long term.