Yesterday we heard that the Blue Jays and Red Sox were "making progress" in talks about compensation for manager John Farrell. Those talks appear to be the biggest hurdle, as a contract between Farrell and the Sox should be no problem. Here are today's updates on the situation, with the latest up top…
- It's likely that Farrell will wind up in Boston, but it's not a certainty that he will be the choice over Brad Ausmus, tweets Peter Gammons of MLB.com. However, it now seems that the determination will be made by General Manager Ben Cherington.
- There are indications tonight that the Red Sox are moving closer to a deal that would make Farrell their next manager, according to Sean McAdam of CSNNE.com.
- The Red Sox have asked to speak directly to Farrell, reports Jimmy Golen of the AP. That could be an indication that talks have progressed far enough that the two sides are talking about a contract.
- WEEI.com's Rob Bradford reports that the Sox "hope to have a resolution on the manager in the coming days." The club could be motivated to get a deal done before the start of the World Series on Wednesday.
Zach Links contributed to this post.
This is one of the most fascinating situations I have ever witnessed in baseball. Two very strong baseball operations in a “stare off” contest. I can’t wait to see the result.
I’m guessing the Jays return is disappointing to Jays fans and the Red Sox will have given up too much from Sox fans.
Ah…a compromise by both sides. How novel.
A Win Win when both teams fans are disapointed!
Well, it depends on who those “Jays fans” are. If they are someone who thinks they have to give Pedroia/Ellsbury/Buchholz then they are insane. If you can get a decent/good prospect, that’s pretty good compensation and I would be happy with that. Red Sox fans likely won’t be though.
Can’t say, despite all the problems there, that most managers wouldn’t jump at the chance to work in Boston. But really John Farrell, if you wanted that chair why did you even take the gig here in Toronto to begin with? So long and thanks for nothing. Sayonara.
because no one could’ve predicted that Fracona would be out so quickly. The way it seemed at the time Farrell left, Francona would be in Boston…indefinitely.
A deal built around Rubby De La Rosa for John Farrell?
No way they give up the centerpiece of the Gonzalez/Beckett/Crawford deal to acquire a manager.
The center piece was ridding themselves of those contracts.
So a young pitcher with RDLRs stuff and potential is just a throw in? No, getting rid of the contracts was huge, but they don’t do that deal if RDLR and Webster aren’t part of it.
You said it was the center piece though , if ridding the contracts was the biggest part of it , that makes it the center piece. RDLR and Webster obviously sweetened the pot for Boston.
They didn’t “sweeten the pot,” the deal doesn’t happen without them. The only one of those three that Boston really actively wanted to move was Beckett. Crawford they probably weren’t sad about moving either, but Gonzalez hurts – regardless of the money they moved (and it was reported at the time that because of all the talent they gave up to get Gonzalez they wouldn’t even consider the deal without getting legitimate talent in return) – and a lot of people think it will be 2-3 years before the Sox are really competitive again because of all the holes they have to fill now despite all the money they have freed up; there just isn’t that kind of talent available at any point in the foreseeable future – if they are going to potentially sacrifice a year or two of contention it’s not going to be just for the payroll flexibility.
You said they were the center piece , and they weren’t , the contracts were the center piece. You can write a novel for all I care , everyone knows the contracts were the center piece. It’s ok to be wrong.
Are you a child?
How am I child? It’s just obvious the contracts were the center piece , like I said it’s ok to be wrong sometimes.
You’re a child because you’re arguing about a worthless point on the internet and you’re intent that someone has to be “right”.
He argued it…
Any GM was dumb enough to throw in a top 5 prospect for a manager, they should be fired. Managers are barely worth the paper they money they’re paid is printed on.
You can argue pointless semantics all you want, but the fact is that deal doesn’t happen without them, and neither one of them is going to be dealt for a manager. Whether they were technically the “centerpiece” according to your definition doesn’t actually matter.
The ONLY thing I was debating was them being the centerpiece , you decided to keep telling me the deal doesn’t get done with out them , I never said it did , all I said was they weren’t the center piece of the deal and you couldn’t seem to just say ” you;re right they weren’t , but they were still a big part of it” That’s all it would have taken.
And in no way did I even think they would be going to Toronto for Farrell , that would be pretty desperate of the Sox to pony up that much for a manager.
Okay, so basically you were arguing about something that doesn’t even matter at all. Not even a little. Got it.
You continued the debate! lol My statement was simply ” The center piece was ridding themselves of those contracts.”
You continued to debate that for some reason.
here, I’ll help.
Whether or not the ‘centerpiece’ of the deal was the contract shedding, nick punto or de la rossa is completely insignificant.
Jays are not getting a prospect of that quality. period.
“Jays are not getting a prospect of that quality. period.”
Common sense tells us this. No one should debate this , I’d hope.
“The center piece was ridding themselves of those contracts.”
Common sense also tells us this , yet someone continued to debate this simple factual statement.
i think it will be ages before boston is competitive again. the owner wants to sell high, and now that the ship is sinking…as they say in toronto…now would be a good time to do so before the crowds really begin to dwindle.
That’s foolish if you actually believe that. Boston could be competitive again next year if they went out and spent the money they have available, but that would potentially put them back in the situation they were in before the deal a couple years down the road, so maybe they have to wait a year (possibly two at the most) for prospects to graduate and building the team with smarter deals, but there’s no way it takes more than a couple years at the very most.
Boston also isn’t Toronto, their fan base isn’t going to disappear just because of a few losing seasons. They’ve only had below average attendance twice in the last 45 years and missed the playoffs almost 3/4 of the time over those years.
toronto could have the highest payroll in baseball. their owners have far more money than anyone.what a team is capable of doing and what they actually spend are more related to profit than anything else. the red sox don’t need to win and you’ll still waste your time and money on them. i think they’d be wise to cash in on some of the goodwill they’ve built up over the years. also, it’s hilarious watching the ‘nation’ freak out.
I agree. But still doesn’t give reason for Boston to give them up for a manager.
People who dislike your last 2 comments are digruntled Blue Jays or Yankees fans.
The center piece wasn’t Nick Punto?
I can see your point. In fact, if I were in Boston’s shoes, I wouldn’t give up De La Rosa. But, I can’t see any “real” reason for AA to compromise.
Hence, the “stare down”.
Best the Blue Jays could possibly hope for would be a Clayton Mortensen/Mark Melancon type. Anything higher than that and the Red Sox should walk. Heck, they should be walking already. I can’t fathom a scenario that makes John Farrell an MLB player more valuable than any of the other candidates – especially a guy like Pena who has just as much experience and more success.
Yep, that is why I find the situation fascinating. I doubt AA is feeling generous to Boston or Farrell after what transpired one year ago.
I wouldn’t offer more than that if I was the Red Sox either. But then why on Earth would the Jays take the deal? Why give your manager, with his great depth of knowledge of your organization and farm system, to a division rival for garbage? May as well wait until the Red Sox hire someone else and then fire Farrell if you don’t want him back.
The only reason I can see for AA to compromise would be if he doesn’t plan on keeping Farrell past his current contract, at least this way he would get something out of it. But yeah, if AA is adamant about getting something like RDLR all it really means is the Red Sox wont get Farrell to manage for them, which wouldn’t really hurt my feelings much.
this is pretty much where it stands. i think the jays would be best to wait for the sox to hire someone and then fire farrell. the media in toronto is going crazy with the mere notion that boston’s fans and media seem to feel entitled to the jays simply handing over someone they have under contract. and, from the sounds of it, if farrell were to leave he’d take 2-3 other coaches with him. if boston wants him, they should be prepared to pay. likewise, i think fans in toronto don’t really care – they just want this to be finally resolved.
if AA was adamant about a guy like RDLR, talks would have stopped a while ago..
JF and AA prob sat down, JF asked for an extension, AA refused so JF asked to move on..
From his perspective, he’s had 2 years of suspect work, another bad year by the jays and he’ll be out of work with a poor resume AND the red sox would have already hired someone.
AA is losing leverage by the minute, because at this point how could he bring back Farrell?
I am not a Farrell fan, but “two years of suspect work”? Because years in which the team was not supplied with enough MLB talent are an indicator of the manager’s performance? Because a team that lost 3 starters including its best in a WEEK underperformed? Because a team that led the league in offense, then suddenly lost Bautista, its starting 3B and its catcher underperformed?
Yeah, I’m sure AA is just ready to run Farrell out on a rail because of his “suspect work.” Jesus.
see your post is all hypothetical, where as my opinion stems from the reality of the situation.
Farrell is going in to a contract year with out an extension, does that scream confidence in your work from your boss? nope
and record isn’t indicative of a managers skill set, but lineup management, bullpen management, running game management and things written on a players face management are, and JF was suspect at all of them.
I’m a jays fan, but the excuse of ‘injuries’ is getting tired.. Jays had 2 significant injuries, bautista and morrow. THATS it. saying 3 starters getting injured when one of them is drabek who was on his way to being replaced anyways is moot, especially when villanueva came in and performed better than 2/3 who were injured.
Lind went from BATTING CLEANUP to being demoted. his choice for starting left fielder lasted a month in the big leagues, Escobar, Johnson, Rasmus, Davis, Lind, Arencibia, all got extended playing time with no repercussions for bad play.
Is this all JF’s fault. no obviously not, a lot of it falls on the GM’s shoulders as well, but to say farrell gets a pass because of injuries is just wrong. he told omar vizquel to steal 2nd in a 1 run game with 2 outs. sheesh
What’s hypothetical? AA said the team needs more starting pitching. The injuries actually happened.
And ask the Yankees if it’s a cop-out to blame injuries.
Say it’s an easy thing to blame, but it’s a big culprit. This team as constituted, sans Bautista for more than 1/3 of the season, is not a competitor. Morrow was the only consistent performer in the rotation. Others carried the load but they were not consistent, and they were handing it off to a bullpen that AA acknowledged needed to be rebuilt (and, oh yeah, they lost their closer in week 1 – even if Janssen picked it up eventually, slotting guys up one role shakes the team up).
Farrell’s record – not just in W/L – is not impressive, but as another poster below says, the Jays have something Boston wants (even if it’s irrational). That’s all there is to it, and the Jays are under no obligation to give it to them. If I’m AA and I don’t like Farrell but I don’t like what the Sox are offering, I balk at the offer and then fire him after Boston hires a new guy to teach all parties a lesson in negotiation. If he thinks Farrell can learn, then he keeps him on and sees how it goes with a renewed roster.
I see no situation in which Boston holds the cards here.
so then why exactly did you argue my point when you 100% agree with my point. lol
Because I saw your point as “maybe AA will just let him go due to his suspect record.” And I think AA is a better negotiator than that regardless of his opinion of Farrell.
And I completely disagreed with your point – I said Boston doesn’t hold the cards, you say AA is losing leverage.
record as in track record as a manager, not actual win loss record.
and AA is losing leverage because he HAS to replace the manager now. he can’t bring him back
I am not going to lie. The “balk at the offer and then fire him (Farrell) after Boston hires a new guy” scenario sounds tantalizing.
“I’m a jays fan, but the excuse of ‘injuries’ is getting tired.. Jays had 2 significant injuries, bautista and morrow. THATS it.”
That’s absurd. Did you watch the team this year? The fielded a lineup in August that was 2/3 AAA and won about 5 games all month.
They had issues before the injuries, sure. This wasn’t going to be a 95 win team or anything. But they were about .500 at the end of July before injuries got absurd and they couldn’t win a game.
lots of teams have injuries.
they would have been able to overcome them if 70% of the opening day starters performed to any level of success.
3 blue jays had good years. 3!!
Edwin, Morrow and Janssen?
JPA got what 17-18 homers? not bad for being injured. Rasmus put up okay RBI numbers and Davis showed some good pop this year plus more stolen bases. Besides those elements and Carlos Villaneuva shining bright at times, I would say I wasn’t happy about the rest of the production.
you got it
“JF and AA prob sat down, JF asked for an extension, AA refused so JF asked to move on..”
Interesting, I wonder if that’s how this came about.
“AA is losing leverage by the minute, because at this point how could he bring back Farrell?”
Don’t really see how AA is losing leverage here. As weird as it might seem he CAN bring Farrell back. The Jays are so shut off to the media we don’t really know what’s going on there (ie if AA hates or likes Farrell or what).
Or, the Jays can wait until the BoSox hire someone and THEN fire Farrell. If the return from Boston is marginal, why WOULDN’T they do that? Why help your rival get their man for nothing?
I suspect AA feels like he has an axe to grind with Boston based on how things were leaked to the media last year. Otherwise, what you say makes complete sense.
I’m not sure how you can really judge a manager…
But yeah, as a Jays fan, I wouldn’t be broken hearted to see Farrell go. Didn’t love him tactically. And there were whispers that it was a clubhouse without leadership at the end of the season.
So… yeah. Hard to say exactly WHAT effect Farrell had on the team really, but I can live with him leaving.
Can you live with him taking Butterfield, Rivera and Lovullo and their inside knowledge of Jays’ players and organization with him, for a spare part coming back as compensation?
whats he going to tell them about the jays that they and every other A.L. team already should know, other than what color their gitch are? every team scouts every team, what good did bringing farrell over do for the jays other than filling a spot? and its not going to be a spare part coming back, only a typical red sox fan would think that as most of them think stewart is more than enough compensation
Well, for starters, things about their stars that they know are weaknesses that they specifically were working on, tendencies that can be exploited with younger players, head games they can play with them that only a former manager can know about. Not all of this stuff gets revealed in a scouting report in the way that it does when you’re working with someone day in, day out on the field.
Or perhaps they could promote Lovullo to manager and keep the rest on staff. Or if they are already under contract for next year they could simply keep them on staff with their new manager.
As far as I can tell, Lovello and Wakamatsu are the only Farrell coaches on the Jays and remember, the jays won’t let them leave unless it’s a promotion or there is more compensation.
i guess they don’t want the manager that badly then. if i’m toronto, there’s no reason to let half your staff leave and then spend the off season scrambling to replace them unless it is made worth your while to do so.
I’m not sure anyone knows how to value a player vs. a manager. But then again, the way Bobby V was portrayed, the Sox might give the whole team away to prevent that mess.
This is stupid. Why are they giving up anything for a manager who has never had a winning record in the majors. Just start over. Tony pena doesn’t have a winning record and you don’t have to give anything up. Just saying.
Tell me something: would Joe Torre have led this year’s Houston Astros to the playoffs?
Then think about your answer.
why can’t the red sox just hire someone else. john farrel will not solve anything and requires compensation and has not shown great managerial skills.
Terry Francona hadn’t done much before he got to Boston.
they also didn’t give anything up to get Tito.
thats just proof that managers dont mean much
He didn’t require compensation or come with all the drama that Farel does. Also Francona inherited a team that made it to game 7 of the ALCS not a team that lost 90 games.
2012 Blue Jays.. the year that just wont end
Just hope Farrell doesn’t sustain some kind of injury, or the deal is off!
Random question if the deal isn’t done before the start of the World Series do they have to wait until the World Series is complete to announce and complete a deal?
Yes. Teams and players are asked to not make any announcements during the WS. It’s not an official rule, just a generally recognized courtesy.
Got it! Thanks for the information!
I wonder if they will make an exception because this is probably proving to be more of a distraction by dragging on. I could see it happening between the NLCS and the WS.
With the ratings Detroit vs St. Louis or San Francisco will draw, MLB might enjoy some East Coast news during the World Series.
I would think a Detroit vs. St. Louis World Series would be exciting. It’s a rematch of 2006, and both are great baseball towns. Even as a fan of neither team I’d be excited to watch, and I would hope the ratings would be pretty good.
We get to see if Detroit pitchers learned how to field the ball. That series was one disastrous error after another for Detroit.
As all pitchers know, you can never have enough Pine Tar.
Don’t knock the pine tar, the Tigers won that game.
Freak’n Kenny Rogers, I would have sworn he’d sold his soul to the Devil, the way he pitched.
Oh really? Excuses excuses. If the yankees could score a run or two they would be ok. Pine tar wouldn’t make a crappy pitcher throw up 7 goose eggs. But nice try!
I was referring to his overall post season performance. He pitched well against Oakland and the Cards as well that year. Something he was not noted for doing.
You’re a recent arrival to the site and as you Troll the boards more, you’ll see that I don’t make excuses. When my team gets beat, I don’t complain about calls, injuries or maybes. Thanks for the opportunity to introduce myself.
PFP is important! As much as the pitchers may hate it.
2006 set record lows for ratings. Perhaps a rematch could make it more interesting. But there’s no question, Fox isn’t going to be thrilled either way.
What Fox needs to realize is if they want to help ratings they need to cut lose Buck and McCarver.
It was the least televised WS in 2006 and most likely would be again.
Should we order the balloons, streamers and confetti now?
At least they are hinting something will happen soon. The Jays know they are best to get something for him, I mean how often is it to swing a trade and get a player for a manager. I’ve said all along that if Farrell Really is their guy that they should offer Bard and be over with it. It’s a dice roll. Will he return to his 8th inning dominace or be a crappy starter? I do think Boston is a better fit for Farrell (to those who question his record in Toronto).
I think Bard is a fair deal. Something will get done. AA does not talk this long without getting it completed. Best for both teams. Farrell is a good manager but Toronto not the right place for him. Would love to see Torey Lovullo or Sandy Alomar Jr. a shot.
if sox are smart…they will balk at any trade of real prospects……plenty of other good candidates available….farrell is unproven as a “good” manager and if they want to try him…fine..but not at the cost of a legitimate prospect. stare in the eye until they blink or walk away and hire Pena or Ausmus
the fact that the story has gone this far says to me we will likely hear about the deal after the NLCS ends and before the WS begins. also, lou pinella netted the M’s randy winn – so i think people who are saying that daniel bard or ruby dlr are not as crazy as boston fans seem to think. this isn’t ozzie, or theo being run out of town last year – and it isn’t just the head coach that’s heading out…
You should look at this from the Jays perspective. The Jays have something that the Red Sox want, and that’s really all there is to it.
That’s not even close to all there is to it. Ferrari has something I really want, but I’m not willing (or able) to pay them what they want for it, so they can keep it. I suspect the Jays can do the same thing if they want something more than what is reasonable for a manager.
but what if the ferrari was a slick talker and had a strong chin?
Oooh, you might have me there.
Well, then they don’t want him badly enough. If they think Farrell was the right guy to right the ship all along, and that this past season was sunk due to poor leadership, then they need to pay up. They have no business approaching a guy under contract for a lateral move, who will also pilfer the Jays’ coaching staff, in-division, who have the book on all the Jays’ players, and not expecting to pay something of value for it. The Sox job is not a promotion and the Jays don’t owe Boston, a division rival they play 19 times a year, a damn thing. And I don’t buy all this hogwash about a rift between AA and Farrell. If they saw eye to eye 100% of the time the only explanation would be that the manager and GM are actually the same person. You want different opinions. The “rift’ narrative is out there so that Boston can drive down the compensation.
Get it? Toronto owes Boston ZERO. And if it carries on not to the Jays’ liking I’d call Boston out on tampering.
As a Jays fan I totally agree with you. I can’t imagine why the Red Sox would trade a good prospect for a manager. And I can’t imagine why the Jays would let their under contract manager go to a division rival for anything LESS than a good prospect.
Someone will blink I guess!
toronto holds all the cards as they arent the ones in need of a manager. boston has and still keeps crawling back to the jays for farrell, they know they have to pony up a decent player or prospect
My sources tell me that the compensation will be Larry Lucchino with Dustin Pedroia’s used jockstrap on his head
Boston want John Farrell Real bad, you can tell that all their focus is on getting him, their reason why, they haven’t interview anyone else after their list of guys, who already interview, they are putting all their eggs in John Farrell basket with the goal of him saying yes..
If I was John Farrell, I would avoid Boston like they have case herpes, because it only took boston to fire Bobby V after 1 season & after 2011 season with report of what happen in club house, this team is still a cancer within themself until, they clean house, he looking at fielding a good team after yr 2 of his contract if, he signed a contract with boston..
Bold Prediction: Blue Jays will finish second in the AL East in 2013.
From my perspective, as a Jays fan, I just don’t see why they should help out the Red Sox here. Seriously – if they don’t want Farrell back, then wait until the Sox hire someone else and then fire Farrell. Why go out of their way to help a division rival?
That’s why I think it only makes sense for the Blue Jays if the Red Sox give up something of value. A prospect like Ruby De La Rosa.
Having said that, if I was a Red Sox fan, I would be absolutely pissed at the idea of giving up a decent prospect for a manager. I wouldn’t want them to give up anything but a organizational depth type guy.
Kind of a strange situation. Maybe the Red Sox and Jays are trying to find a way to expand the trade to make it more workable.
“Maybe…trying to find a way to expand the trade to make it more workable”>>Bingo. I am sure John Farrell is putting in his two cents if this is the case.
I just don’t see any way the red sox would give up something of value like that when they can just hire another manager
same with Ozzie. When a team wants a manager and they think he is the perfect guy, they will try to get the guy
just because one front office is completely whack, doesn’t mean another one would be.
if the sox were willing to give de la rossa or a prospect anywhere as close, farrell would have been gone a long time ago.
If we base coaches on their first stints, then I guess Terry Franconca and Bill Belichick are terrible coaches
Why doesn’t Boston give up who they received in return for Theo?
either A. The Sox like them or B. The jays don’t
I’m far more concerned with who else would be leaving the days staff (reports were that butter, lovullo and murph were leaving too) AND most importantly who is going to take over the jays.
The return should be and will be insignificant.
I can’t help but think that a bigger deal is in the works with multiple players going both way. It’s only a hunch but sounds like something AA would do.
I like farrell but am not convinced he is the solution. He was present during chicken-gate an it was his guys(pitchers) doing the chickening (word?). Just seems if they are trying to clear the air, they need to do it once and for all.
Looks like the Jays got more for Farrell than the Red Sox got for Theo.
Disagree. Aaron Kurcz and Carpenter are both decent prospects still, especially Kurcz. Aviles was going to be pretty much given away this off season, along with Aceves anyway.
Pardon me if I’m not informed on slang or pop culture, but how would it be an “optics disaster” if Toronto can’t convince their fan base they got something decent for Farrell? What does trading your manager have to do with the study of light properties or eyewear?
Can’t afford to have more crap go wrong? As in they go from 18,000 fans per game to 14,000? dislike all u want its the truth.
Optics seems to only be used in Canada, but we use it all the time here to mean how the situation looks from a PR standpoint.
hey, they “averaged” 25,900 if you believe this:
link to espn.go.com
Oh please. Find me another team that hasn’t made the playoffs in 20 years and draws really well.
lol hilarious and kinda sad