The Twins’ woeful season has them positioned as deadline sellers, but there’s no guarantee they’ll move anyone controlled beyond the 2021 campaign. Minnesota entered the season on the heels of a pair of division titles, and the Twins have ample payroll space this winter as well as a core of controllable young players. The toughest choices for the Twins’ front office will be how to proceed with a group of players controlled only through the 2022 season — right-hander Jose Berrios chief among them.
Berrios has already drawn interest from multiple teams, and with good reason. The 27-year-old has pitched to a 3.48 ERA with a career-best 25.9 percent strikeout rate and a seven percent walk rate (the second-lowest of his career) through 108 2/3 innings. That innings tally ranks sixth in the American League and underscores the durability of Berrios, who is tenth in all of baseball in innings pitched dating back to 2017 and has never been on the Major League injured list.
The Twins have tried in the past to sign Berrios to a long-term deal, but he’s been vocal about wanting to advance the market for starting pitchers and now, 15 months from reaching free agency, sounds as though he’s far from inclined to take any sort of deal on an extension.
“[I will have been] waiting six years, almost seven, to get where every player wants to be — a free agent, able to maximize our value,” Berrios told Phil Miller of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune this weekend. “So it’s different now. We are in a good position, and we’ll see what the best deal is going to be.”
Berrios added that there haven’t been any extension talks but said he likes Minnesota and would be open should the Twins approach him with another extension scenario at some point. Putting together what would need to be a market-value extension before the July 30 trade deadline seems unlikely — particularly with the front office dedicating a good chunk of its time to exploring trades for rental players and also talking extension with center fielder Byron Buxton. Berrios, who has a 3.76 ERA with strong strikeout and walk rates over the past five seasons, surely took notice when Zack Wheeler inked a five-year, $118MM deal with the Phillies on the heels of a similar statistical track record (but with less durability).
Even if the two sides don’t come to terms on a contract extension, however, a Berrios trade is far from a foregone conclusion. Again, the Twins likely hope to contend in 2022, and Berrios would be a big part of that effort while pitching at an affordable rate. He’s earning $6MM in 2021, and even when that number soars beyond $10MM in his final offseason of arbitration, he’d be a bargain relative to his open-market value.
That makes him a highly desirable trade piece but also gives the Twins the ability to set a high asking price. The Athletic’s Dan Hayes reports that the Twins’ initial ask in return for Berrios from one interested team was a pre-arbitration player on the Major League roster and a pair of top 100 prospects. That meshes with reports from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch and the New York Post that the Twins’ asking price on Berrios has been sky-high. Given the general dearth of impact starters on the trade market and the Twins’ outlook for the 2022 season, it’s understandable that they’d effectively be asking for a king’s ransom to relinquish Berrios.
Broadly speaking, it’d be a surprise it the Twins didn’t at the very least move rental pieces like Nelson Cruz, Michael Pineda and Hansel Robles in the coming weeks, but the asking price on Berrios will be as high as the asking price on any player who has a chance of being traded between now and July 30.
“but he’s been vocal about wanting to advance the market for starting pitchers ”
yeah, that’s what every little boy dreams of doing.
Game 7, 9th inning, two outs
“I am one out away from advancing the market for starting pitchers. **** YEAH!!!!!”
That’s kind of what it’s becoming though, isn’t it? Unfortunately.
I think Gerritt Cole would have GLADLY taken 30 million to stay with the Astros, IF they had inked it early in post-season 2019 – HE is out to WIN, and carry the load to get there.
Little boy dreams.
Telling Boone to GTFO in the 9th against the astros 2 starts ago was EPIC
It was amazing
I think Cole was gone no matter what from Houston. He didn’t even tip is cap to the fans when he left game 7 in ’19. Can’t remember if the Nats had the lead when he left.
That’s because (and I’m a hard-core Astros fan, both of the players and the front office) they DIDN’T do the deal two weeks prior to that, like they ought to have, and as was discussed on-going. Prior ownership did the same thing with Daryl Kile.
Cole DESERVED it, and would have taken less to get it, if they had been straight-up with him, I think.
Also, he never got in to game 7 – he was in the bullpen like a snorting raging bull screaming to get the call – that didn’t sit well with him either
Cole, the guy that wore a Boras Corp hat to his post-game presser “would have taken less”….?
sorry, no.
sorry, yes – he and his wife REALLY wanted to stay.
I love Astros front office, but they can be pretty cold-blooded.
They could have signed him in August for a little less than 30, I think.
I wish every one would tell Boone to GTFO. He’s a disaster of a manager.
Here’s Mussina telling Torre to GTFO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx87p8Rkboc
LOL and here’s Cole courtesy y’all’s favorite feed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjWp6KTcrcw
I find it funny u mention “little boy dreams”. The Yankees were his favorite team since he was a child. Astros could have matched Yankees offer and he would have still went to NY. Its important to know the details before running with an assumption.
he didnt even pitch in game 7 did he?
You’re kidding yourself. The Astros made a brilliant move getting Cole and helping maximize his value, but he was absolutely in it to max his value, and he was always going to NY in the end. Houston offered him a deal at the same time as Verlander, but Cole said no. It’s cool you’re connected to his wife, but the truth is Cole would have even gone to the evil empire for less money than he got, but Boras did what Boras does.
Trade ya servais
Trade ya servais Scott is trash
Why the he// are we talking about Gerritt Cole in this thread.
“Ah, for Pete’s Sake Aaron!”
Going to New York wasn’t about winning. If he wanted to win that would not have been the first destination. Not blaming him, but Houston was/is the better team.
@Nuanced Jamesian – you poor delusional person LOL yeah sure bud, 99.9% of players say they love the team they are on and want to stay right before they leave in free agency – but Cole really meant it!!!!
2017 = 1919. Astros = Black Sox. If you are still a fan of them after that, then on top of that you honestly believe a player when they say they want to stay on the team thats about to lose him to FA = you have bigger problems, mental ones. Sorry this happened to you, but the Dodgers are the TRUE 2017 champs more than Cole was going to stay in Houston (California boys dont like Texas FYI – Cole blew it by not going to the Angels or Dodgers more than anything.)
Whatever the case, now he has to watch the playoffs from his couch.
Nuanced – How do you know that Cole and his wife really wanted to stay in Houston?
Also, him paying respect to the fans in Houston with a hat tip has nothing to do with his feelings about the Astros ownership.
Because every baseball conversation devolves into talking about the Yankees, it’s only a matter of time.
Well, @Jamesian, telling Booner to screw off isn’t a dream limited specifically to little boys.
But yeah.
Dodgers are also rumored to have been cheating.
@ prov356
from her twitter feed, plus their released statements, from the family – they LOVED Houston, and the fans, and the teammates, and still do. The way it all must have played out seems very obvious to me – that they were in discussions for weeks, if not months, and HE obviously felt like astros jerked him around, and THAT’S why, with a man like him, you’d get a statement as gunslinger cold as “I’m not an employee of the team,” right after the game.
Here’s her instagram, a few weeks later
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6MaU4sHt3J/?igshid=zblo7tx4w1w5
finally, interview with him, he really enjoyed coming back two weeks ago, seeing the place, and his friends.
You have a great user name – I try to live that daily
Probably wouldn’t have since his agent is Boras who doesn’t cut those types of deals.
If ever there was a guy not dictated to by his agent, it’s Cole
after 7 years of slavery to one team… freedom sounds good..
I’d LOVE to do that slavery. Where do I sign up?
I too opt for slavery
Probably starts with signing up for little league. We’ve most likely all had the chance to put that work in to get to where he is, don’t hate on the guy for reaching the top of his craft.
Don’t forget the other half of the equation. Genetically endowed talent.
Pelican grip did wonders
Starts with being born in a foreign country where one isn’t subjected to the amatuer draft system. Age 16…millions….nice head start on advancing the pitching market.
Make the money while you can…the domestic market is as narrow as the sugar soda market now…and the international isn’t far behind.
My failure to become a millionaire baseball star is not due to lack of effort when I was young, I assure you. 99% of those who try to become professional sports stars fail, despite great effort.
Pablo Sandoval has some words for you
Berrios is from Puerto Rico which is a US Territory and was Drafted By the Twins.. in 2012
Oh great, here comes some old guy with all his stupid facts…
Not yet. When he is done eating.
Yup, another thing joe fanboys out there never take into consideration: baseball has been most of these mens lives since they were 5 years old. The pre-MLB baseball lives of MLB players are literally never accounted for when talking about the overall baseball life, contract value etc.
Half a million dollars is slavery now? How do I get in on that?
I’m not sure you understand what slavery is.
Someoldguy, if getting paid a lot of money to play baseball is slavery then take me to Massa
I thought slavery was abolished. Like at least 40 years ago or more.
Nope, just moved into the prison system
@Sliderdownandin untethered, unregulated capitalism replaced slavery.
A’sfaninUK
untethered, unregulated capitalism replaced slavery.
=============================================================
ROTFLMAO!
Talk to a corporate accountant if you think these companies are unregulated. Half the work I do is related to the BEA, the SEC, EEOC, IRS (federal, state and city), city, state and federal inspectors, etc.
If it weren’t for government regulations, half the accountants in the world would be unemployed.
Well…I’d like to get in on some of that “untethered, unregulated capitalism” as I am laboring under the regular kind. Which is wildly less profitable.
Tell that to people in Cuba right now.
Slavery is a bit over the top when the guy’s made the money he’s made. Come on man be better than that it’s literally the dumbest possible comment.
Contract slave.. in a Monopoly, controlled by 30 Billionaire companies.. in a system where they don’t have to pay your your worth… He is paid a lot less than he is worth….can’t just offer his services to another place.. because all 30 companies that would want his services participate in the system.. so he has no place to ply his wares at market value.. no different than any wage slave
To be fair he had the opportunity to shop his services to the highest bidders. he could have signed in Japan, Korea, or any of the Winter League teams.
Yes the current system in MLB favors the owners the first 4-5 years but that is still a higher compensation plan than the other leagues.
It’s not like players only have the option of MLB. It is that MLB is the best option for the players who actually make it.
False: there is only one place where the highest levels of the game are played.. and why should a worker who is among the best in the world be stopped from participating in that level of their ability?.. The answer is simple.. there are no alternatives to the best players.. the are forced to sign contracts when they are coming up or not get the chance to be the best they can be… so Why did Otani.. come to the US…??? because he had maxed out what the japanese leagues had to offer him…You are forced to pursue their way.. because they are a monopoly.. its not like being a top programmer or a top scientist.. where you have Many opportunities.. the MLB you must slave under their system.. or they won’t let you play.. or we won’t let you be the best you can be…
Ridiculous. Their “lack of opportunity” manages to make them millionaires. The system is flawed but the players certainly are not underpaid. And your use of the word “slave” is just way too insane to even get into here.
you speak of the meager minority who make millions.. what about all the rest who are forced to sign away their opportunities to find a system that fits them.. They are contract slaves to a monopoly until their initial contracts run out.. that is a fac its written in the rules.. Just ask any player that is held back so the team that drafted them can keep them in thrall for 7 years… .. they are not fee to choose which team they work for or tryout for… they are bound to One team…. which reduces their earnings and learning potential… there is no denying that facts
They are NOT slaves. But,other than that, now you’re actually making sense. The monopoly that is MLB does prevent other leagues from being created and thus deprives others from job opportunities underneath those who make it in MLB. But it is decidedly NOT slavery and the comparison is, frankly, quite offensive.
you never lived in a company town.. were there was 1 employer who ran your life and you followed their rules.. or you’d end up homeless. hungry and blacklisted … Wage slavery is real.. just as in the US there was ” involuntary servitude”… where people sold their children to pay off their debts.. those children were slaves.. just like the people living in the company town with no way out… and that is all the MLB is.. a company town who controls the draftees for 7 years … its not unnoticed by people that know their history… that a typical term of indentured servitude was yes “7” years..
Oh for goodness sake, if you’re making a million plus you’re NOT a slave. If you have the choice to change jobs, or move to another town you are NOT a slave. I’m sorry but you sound like an absolute fool.
talk about small sample size… Kids working their way thru the minors are not making a million a year.. many major leaguers aren’t making a million a year.. because.. they can’t peddle their wares to the highest bidder… they are slave to one club who can buy them and sell them and control them…
Its not slavery if you sign up for it, but sure go ahead. You probably also compare a lot of people to Hitler, right?
Dude, you need to get a grip. I make 1% of what some players make, and I am not close to slavery. I mean, everyone complains about making slave wages, but most of the people complaining own two houses and three cars.
Slavery? What an idiot. When you change the definition of words, words lose all meaning.
Complete control in life doesn’t happen. Not being in complete control does not make you a slave.
Being a little boy who day dreams about the World Series and being a professional adult who recognizes their own value are drastically different.
Wanting to be among the most adored when you’re a child and wanting to be among the most well paid as an adult aren’t all that drastically different.
It’s possible to both want to win the World Series *and* advance the market for starting pitchers. There’s no need to set limits on what Berrios can do.
He wants money, simple as that. And he’s unbelievably out of touch if he thinks of starting pitchers as some poor, marginalized group of people who need his help to one day become truly equal. I’d rather he was just honest. He doesn’t even have to say, “I’m available to the highest bidder,” something like, “I want to wait to see how the market unfolds,” is sufficient.
Yeah. At least Greinke was honest about his pursuit of money.
We pretty much all know that’s the case in 99% of free agency, and I don’t blame guys at all, but it is so rare that dudes are honest.
At least Lynn wanted to stay in Chicago and signed a relatively fair extension rather than pursue the extra $ elsewhere!
Pretty soon everyone will want to be a White Sox.
So many happy Sox players controlled for next 3-5 years. Whoever does their contracts will be left with no work to do!
Little boy dreams are different from grown man goals.
btw, I’m not saying I think his goal is noble or anything. It’s total BS. I’m just saying the whole little boy dreams thing is off.
GREED
Welcome to capitalism
I’m okay with grown men not thinking like little boys. I’d rather him get paid than someone sitting in a luxury box.
Isn’t “I’d rather him get paid … luxury box” pretty childish thinking though? The demands of business dictate who gets paid what in this situation, not who you’d rather get an autograph from. It’s just silly thinking to me.
i honestly dont see the statistical comp between Wheeler and Berrios.
Zack Wheeler, 2014-19: 3.83 ERA, 3.64 FIP, 23.3 K%, 8.1 BB% in 649 1/3 innings
Jose Berrios, 2017-21: 3.76 ERA, 3.82 FIP, 24.2 K%, 7.3 BB% in 710 innings (with one fewer season and the shortened 2020 schedule curbing his innings total)
What Wheeler has done with the Phillies has elevated his status, sure, but leading up to the five-year deal, he looked quite similar to Berrios. His deal also started with his age-30 season; Berrios would begin with his age-29 season.
I’d be surprised if they weren’t aiming to top Wheeler by a good bit, honestly.
Yes. If 2019 Wheeler hit the market today and 2021 Berrios hit the market today, they’d be viewed similar with Berrios rated ahead as he’s younger with less health questions. Granted, I thought the Phillies overpaid slightly in 2019, but Wheeler elevated his game and has shown himself to be durable, so it’s now a great deal for them, but the deal was more of a risk two years back. If he stays healthy, Berrios gets more after 2022.
I tjought that too. But yeah he has been worth every penny and that deal wasn’t that bad as far as tying up payroll.
A much better comp for Berrios is Marcus Stroman.
Berrios has a slightly higher K rate but everything else is very similar, they also share the same length of control and salary. Given that the return for Stroman was 2 prospects who weren’t in the top 100 the Twins’ ask seems much too high. Or it’s about right and Stroman was traded too cheaply.
Stroman 2016-2018 507.1 IP, 4.10 ERA, 3.83 FIP, 3.56 xFIP, 7.22 K/9
Berrios 2017-2019 455.2 IP, 3.79 ERA, 3.90 FIP, 4.13 xFIP, 9.18 K/9
I’m confused. you started your paragraph by saying, “A much better comp for Berrios is Marcus Stroman.” and then you compare numbers that are worse than the numbers provided by Steve Adams. that’s a bold strategy Cotton
You are correct, I should have included other stuff.
Handedness (Stroman R, Berrios R, Wheeler L)
Fastball velocity (Stroman 94, Berrios 94, Wheeler 97)
Salary (Stroman 7.5, Berrios 6.1, Wheeler 23)
Have you ever seen Wheeler beyond some online statistical site? He’s a right handed pitcher. Geez, turn on the TV and watch a game.
Can you also compare him to right-hander Clayton Kershaw?
Wheeler’s salary in 2019, the comp year heading into free agency, was $6M. Meanwhile, you’re using Wheeler’s salary for this year post signing his contract, but you’re using Stroman’s contract from a couple years back. His salary this year is basically $19M. It seems you don’t understand how any of this works. And as for Wheeler being a lefty…lol.
Just don’t compare him to Jim Abbott.
Just disregarding the fact you can’t even get the handedness part correct, the stats matter so much more than salary and handedness.
It’s surprising how stupid people are about baseball…on a baseball site.
Wasn’t he the guy who singlehandedly redefined the incomparable modern pitcher?
@Skim, great reference!
Bluejaymatt 2 can you post more often! Please. Great info
Wheeler had a 3.77 ERA from his time with the Mets. And Berrios is a 3.76 ERA now
Oh the Twins have a plan to sell tickets next year.. this winter they’ll go all out and buy just enough flotsam.. to reach the we are ” Competitive”.. level …
That’s all every team needs to do. Playoffs are a crapshoot so yeah no sense going all in which is the dumbest term in baseball
That is basically the same approach the Yanks are using. Albeit with $70+MM more to budget. Both of these front offices are very conservative & are reticent to over-emphasize any single season.
As every team should with the playoffs being a crapshoot. Get there enough times bound to win eventually.
The Twins have gone into the last several off seasons with “ample payroll space” and proceeded to whiff on the top tier free agents every time , instead bringing in Homer Bailey types. The only success story was outbidding the field for perennially injured Josh Donaldson, which seemed almost like a panic move after they missed on all the other targets. I won’t view the payroll space as an advantage for this organization until I see them using it. Until then they will continue to build teams with merely “happy to be here” playoff upside.
Something tells me we’ll be seeing Berríos rumors again this time next year when he inevitably doesn’t sign an extension and the Twins are in a similar spot in the standings. They should just pull the trigger on a trade now while his value is at its highest
The Twins will almost assuredly trade Berrios this offseason if they’re unable to extend him after the new CBA is approved unless the comp pick is completely eliminated.
If the Twins are going to make moves this offseason with the intention of contending, they probably don’t trade Berríos. There’s also a solid group of free agent SPs so the demand won’t be as high. Extension or not Berríos likely opens next season with the Twins then gets traded at the deadline
Unless they’re in the WC race next year?
Highly unlikely unless they overhaul their rotation
Why wait until this offseason? They’re going nowhere this year. They can get more for him now because whoever trades for him will get a year and a half of him instead of just one year.
Trade him now, take what you can get.
I dunno why people here insist teams should just trade their top guys for whatever they can get. Same people will complain the next year they’re tanking. The same people think every team should sign every player in free agency to a blank cheque. For years now because so many teams are tanking it’s been a buyers market and that’s not going to change if teams like the twins just give away guys for whatever they can get.
Keeping a guy like Berrios is fine, even until after the trade deadline next year even if they aren’t competitive. Just QO him assuming the cba doesn’t change and get the draft pick slot money which is more valuable than any AAAA player they get back for Berrios.
Yea I don’t see why they’d want to trade him
Because MLBTR needs clicks. This is their MO.
Assuming they’re not going to sign him long term, it makes absolutely no sense to keep him if they can get a decent return. They’re terrible this year and will likely not be good next year.
QO? He’s not a free agent until after next year. They would get way more than a ‘AAAA player’.
If you have no plans to sign him beyond next year, you maximize your return value and trade. They would get way more value right now than slot money. Ask yourself what the smartest small market team in baseball would do here (the Rays). Hold on to an asset and diminish its value, then QO him and get slot money? No, they’d trade him. Holding onto an asset when your team is terrible makes no sense.
Advancing the market for starting pitchers doesn’t mean he will reach free agency, it means he wants to be paid extremely well and doesn’t plan on accepting any sort of discount. I think he is going to want 5 years at $125mil or 6 years at $150mil.
I think if the Twins or a team that he gets dealt to offers that, he’d be silly not to take it. He’d also be advancing the market for pitchers, as he’s not an ace on a good team, and to make $25mil annually and not be the best pitcher on a staff is pretty good.
I think an extension would be in the 5 /125 neighborhood. I don’t think the Twins learned from the Darvish negotiations. The Pohlads are just too risk averse to go longer.
That’s smart of them. Not signing any SP to any 5 year deals is actually a great rule to follow.
This has Yankees written all over it. Sounds like he wants monstrous money. Money grows on trees in NY.
The Yankees have went over the tax line how often lately?
Is it? Ask their rotation how that’s working out for them
Ny Yankees and Money Mets.
Twins should move Simmons too. Even if it’s just to dump his salary.
That asking price is especially tough to swing because of the pre-arb player in addition to the prospects. I feel like they basically want a MLB SP in return, but if you look at like SD or LAD, those teams are having a hard time fielding 5 healthy SP for a rotation at the moment, so it’s not like they can really afford to give up a backend guy with team control along with prospects to upgrade into Berrios.
I guess it’s a little easier if they’ll take a position player, but it’s still tricky moving an MLB piece when you want to compete now.
@CNichols, the Giants might be able to pull it off. Trade them Joey Bart and two mid-tier prospects and stabilize the Giants rotation down the stretch. I’d love to see that
Yeah Giants are in a much better position health-wise so it would be a little easier for them to part with MLB talent.
What you’re proposing though is a little different than what the Twins are asking for. Basically the Twins asking price is like Joey Bart + Heliot Ramos + a decent MLB pre-arb player. So on the Padres thats like Luis Campusano + Robert Hassel + a decent MLB pre-arb player, or on the Dodgers its like Keibert Ruiz + Josiah Gray + a decent MLB pre-arb player.
I think the three NL west teams can pay that prospect price if they wanted, it’s just like when you have to move a part of your MLB team on top of that heavy prospect cost, the price is super steep.
Why would the Giants gut the top of their farm system for this guy? They have a pretty strong rotation already and can buy more depth or take on a bad contract along with a pitcher since they have tons of $$$ from years of avoiding trades like the one you have proposed.
Avoiding bad trades with enormous salary? Evan Longoria ring a bell to you chief?
Longoria was a trade from the last administration, and all told, it’s been a palatable tenure. Longo was actually having a great year until he got injured this season.
It’s not Zaidi’s style to decimate the farm for a rental or short term acquisition.
As for the Twins, they can ask the moon, and then they’ll end up getting nothing as all the other teams pass.
Agreed, what we gave up to get Longo, those pieces haven’t done much at all, Arroyo bounced around but has found a home in Boston. That’s it. Longo has produced ok so far. I highly doubt FZ would give up Bart+ for Berrios
Right – I mean, think about the Giants current rotation and how it was built: through analytics and through picking up higher risk-higher upside guys on (relatively) cheap contracts.
Seems to me that Zaidi has an eye for such guys, and would be more likely to swing a trade for a guy whose numbers have not been eye-popping but who could be dominant if pitching within the confines of Oracle Park.
Even with Posey’s resurgence, there’s absolutely no need to sell low on Bart. Ramos is untouchable.
The ask is ridiculous when considering the trade market lately. Berrios is far from the best SP to be traded in the last 3 years and yet never did someone give up a return like that.
I don’t think anyone would consider trading one top 100 guy at this point let alone two. These current gms value those type of guys too much right now. It’s always prospect ranked number 6, 9 and 12 where the rebuilding team gets quantity over quality. A nobody is giving up roster players in the day in age where depth wins right now.
Last offseason the Padres added not just one starting pitcher to “get them over the top”, but 3 – Yu Darvish, Joe Musgrove, and Blake Snell.
Currently they’re in 3rd place and looking to add starting pitching.
Cmon Sammy, your too good for fallacy !
3rd in Div or 3rd in all of NL?
Fallacy?
LOL
Gee Dad……
What’s the difference? How does your backhanded cheap-shot comment invalidate what I wrote?
They went after 3 “can’t miss”, name, high-salaried pitchers, and now they need to find more because they’re not “over the top”.
But if a team signs Berrios then they can begin arranging the WS Championship parade.
For 3 years I’ve been reading Twins fans on here complaining that they don’t have an Ace.
They’re too good for that, no?
@aussiegiants I think Farhan would give up Bart for Berrios in a heartbeat. I doubt he would give up anyone else in the top 10 of the farm though. Bart, Hjelle, and an auxiliary mlb outfielder would be a pretty reasonable offer. At this point the Twins will want more, and that’s when you walk away.
@ BRUH.SF.BRUH;
I think you and most of the posters on here have no clue as to how stat-conscious teams such as the Giants, Dodgers, Rays, (now) Red Sox, Brewers, Indians, Astros, (now) Orioles, A’s and maybe one or two others value players – especially Pitchers and Catchers.
The only way they even consider that is if they feel that Bart is not working out in calling a game, handling pitchers, and blocking balls in the dirt….i.e. he’s a Francisco Mejia-type whose rep is not matched by his play; and he may bounce around for 3-4 years platooning for a few teams until he might get it.
Catching is not only the most physically taxing in the game, it’s the most mentally challenging. The demands to understand what management and coaches want out of individual Pitchers on a daily basis makes it the most important position on a modern baseball team……especially with pitchers moving on and off the roster 3-4 times a week.
@Samuel I have no clue? Okay. Bart is “older” for a prospect and blocked by Posey (for probably another 2-3 years). No reason reason for you to come with some superiority complex because you think you know everything.
No, you don’t.
Bart is hardly old for a Catcher and sitting behind a guy like Posey for a few years (assuming he doesn’t get injured…again) is no different than an NFL QB sitting behind a veteran QB and learning the ropes.
The question is whether Bart has the mental makeup, discipline and leadership abilities to handle the position. And if he doesn’t, the Giants need to find a catching prospect to work with ASAP.
As Dayton Moore says – there are less quality Catchers in MLB today than there are quality QB’s in the NFL.
@Samuel You clearly don’t follow the Giants. If you did, you would know that they have multiple highly regarded catching prospects outside of Bart. Second, you would know that he was terrible managing the staff last year and has a terribly high strikeout percentage and low walk rate. Maybe you should do some research before spouting off some holier than thou BS just to make yourself feel like an expert.
Anyone who offers an arb-eligible MLB player plus two top 100 ranked prospects for Berrios is simply moronic. It won’t end well.
However, it unfortunately has ‘Preller on a coke binge’ written all over it. 🙁
Side note, I think a mediocre pre-arb player and 2 top 100s is pretty expensive for Berrios, but justifed depending on what caliber of “top 100” the prospects fall. If the Twins were asking for 2 prospects ranked 50-100, for example.
The Sale trade was a lot more valuable (and should have been) with arguably the #1 prospect in baseball, another top 50ish prospect an organizational top 10 with a “B”ish ranking and another very high upside arm.
If the Twins were asking for a top 30, another top 100 and a good pre-arb player, that’s ludicrous.
I think the Mets are in play on Berrios. They’ve had to expose enough pitchers to at least introduce them to the league. Does Peterson, Vientos plus a low level prospects SP get it done?
I truly believe in JD Davis’ bat to keep him longer than trading for a Donaldson rental half season. Mets have plenty of late inning, double switch defensive options.
If the DH really is coming to the NL, then Davis will have left field optional playing as Smith moves y to 1B and Pete shifts to full time bopper only status.
Bring in Berrios and C/Util Astadillo for Peterson, Corey Oswalt, Khalil Lee and Mark Vientos. Mets need a dependable starter now more than ever. Pineda is the plan B for less.
Mauricio will likely shift off SS permanently, making Vientos a solid trade ship with Baty only a level behind him.
Donaldson is under contract for two more years. Not a rental
Some people really gotta start researching before commenting.
Here’s a trade that pulls of dumping Simmons salary. Twins get Keibert Ruiz and 1/2 lottery tickets. Dodgers take Simmons contract and Berrios.
Doubt that gets anywhere close because the Twins can easily afford to pay a half season of Simmons.
The dumping parts confusing as Simmons has like 4 mill left on less than half a year but agree Ruiz would be a good get for Minny…altho I like Garver quite a bit
I wish the cubs weren’t sellers. Would be cool to have Berrios and Javy Baez on the same team since they’re brother in laws
They are both free agents in the next 16 months so they can easily make that happen
I can see baez going to Minnesota and Berrios signing an extension with them. Simmons is on a 1 year deal. Even if it was a one year deal. I wouldn’t mind Simmons replacing baez in Chicago. I’d rather the cubs offer baez the QO. I think he would take it. He just cant be traded within the next two weeks.
Pardon my ignorance, I watch many more games from the AL. I don’t get to see defensive work by National League players day in day out like I do in the West. Has J Baez played many games at 2B or is he strictly a SS? Some middle INFers are totally comfortable moving gracefully around any spot on the diamond then there’s those who look uncomfortable and tentative at a different position. Is Javy Baez more of the former or is he the latter?
Obviously I’m asking the question about Baez because I’d love to see my fave AL team add his bat into a lineup that includes a GG winning SS. From what I’ve seen Baez looks like he’d also bring an intensity and competitiveness to our young clubhouse. Does he run hard on pop-flies and easy outs? Or can he get lazy?
I highly doubt my AL team will even pick up the phone to call Chicago re: Baez. We’ll be looking for pitching before we look at anyone. Knowing our owners they’ll wait until the last minute to pick up a bat or two from the ill-fitting and misshapen items strewn around the sale bin. If our FO is only going to let us shop at ‘Ross or Marshall’s’ I’d love to see if our FO could work a deal to pick up K Hendricks- we have plenty of dough and our cupboards are brimming with prospects.
This year its mainly SS. He can play 2nd,3rd and 1st. He used to play CF. pre pro days.
Cubs can be sellers and buyers at the same time. Look back at what Kenny Williams did with the southsiders the year before they won the WS in 2005. He swapped out about 1/2 of the lineup and 60% of the starting rotation. I’m a Cubs fan and I’d like to see them commit to Contreras and trade for Berrios by putting Amaya in a package to bring back a top of the rotation pitcher.
Cubs are going to be entering a pretty lengthy rebuild imo so sorry to break that news for ya –
I think it would be a huge mistake to hedge it and dont think they will….I think they “bottom out” the next 2.5 years and come back 24 as spenders with a clean ledger
Writings been on the wall here for awhile imo
Berrios/Rogers > Jays for Biggio/Pearson/Kloffenstein
That’s a god awful trade for Toronto.
Berrios is way overrated due to being the only competent pitcher on the twins. If im the Mets, I trade David Peterson straight up for Berrios and offer a 3 year 42 million dollar extention. If he says no you let him walk
Overvaluing your players and putting down other teams players are normal for fans. But NYC fans of the Mets and Yankees take it to a whole new level. The one-dimensional NYC teams think that spending money on players that throw the ball hard and hit lots of HR’s will get them into the WS each year. The Baseball IQ of those players on the field is so bad that over the years NYC fans watching them think it’s the way to play baseball.
Peterson for Berrios and JD David for Kris Bryant.
Sure.
I listened to the Yankees radio feed last night – Odor bunt single, next guy singles against shift, Odor races for third, other guy gets to second on throwing error, sac fly scores Odor, Yanks broadcasters beside themselves with joy to be watching REAL baseball finally. Also, there’s a lot of talk in another thread here about Yankee prospects who are NOT 3TO – so not ALL NY fans are oblivious to the real problems up there
The Yankees are giving up Frazier for S Marte, K Marte, and Escobar in a 3 team deal. The Mets are getting Bryant, Rizzo, and Baez for Edwin Diaz.. They’re so delusional it hurts to read these comments.
@Nuttin, I’m not hurt, I’m more amused than anything. Used to be annoyed, but now it’s pretty funny. I do believe some Yankees fans are giving the rest a bad name, though. If you have more fans than any other team, and fans are proposing trade deals at roughly the same rate, you’ll have more laughably bad deals from Yankees fans than from fans of other teams. That said, there are some real doozies out there.
The only issue I got is the Yankees fans who still Clint Frazier and Miguel andujar still have the same value as when they where untouchable youngsters and that that duo should get then anyone they want ! Idk how but Yankees fans where stunned reds where not all over that for Castillo and instead wanted torres and other stuff not named Frazier or andjudar
3.5 arb yrs of JD is worth 0.5 of KB imo
I am high on Jd tho
Ask yourself why you want to get rid of Peterson and why you want to acquire Berrios. Then ask yourself why you think their value is equal.
And 3 years, $42 million is crazy talk. He’ll get way more than that.
Not even close, for a Twins return for Berrios or for the contract extension; he’s going to make WAY more than that, twice that or more, likely, with more years.. Bank on it.
Probably closer to 3x that dollar value, if topping wheeler is his goal
He’s definitely overrated but that’s a terrible offer. His comp is prob closer to wheeler though to me it’s always been obvious Wheeler is far better and the last two years are proving it.
The hype over Berrios should remind us of all the hype over Quintana by White Sox fans who were demanding a kings ransom in a trade for what they considered to be an “ace”….always happens with a teams fan base contrary to what some say in these threads and ALL MLB teams fan bases are just a guilty of over-hyping their players and prospects…….
With pitching at a premium and teams looking to add that “missing piece” to their staffs, why not ask for the moon….time will tell how this all works out.
Damn right, those crazy White Sox fans thinking they could get any major talent for Quintana. At least they didn’t ask for anything crazy like Eloy Jimenez and Dylan Cease, or something like that.
Yes, Berrios overrated!
Ask Gavin Sheets!!
I agree that Berrios is overrated, but it’s a little dumb to base that on one at bat. Sheets got him, great, but that’s one time. I’m sure unheralded rookies have hit HR’s off of Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez at some point in their careers. Guess they sucked, too.
Overrated is a meaningless term.
It’s a relative term.
I’ll follow Berrios’ free agency with some interest. When I read about players expressing interest in “forwarding the market for their position” it’s usually someone who is a statistical leader at their position. Berrios’ is a really good pitcher but he doesn’t have the star power that someone like Cole or JTR has. Will he be able to forward the market for middle rotation pitchers?
Decades from now Berrios Day will be nat’l holiday, as all the public schoolchildren put on plays to celebrate his forwarding the market for starting pitchers, and we honor his sacrifice with silence and head bowed, gathered ’round the traditional bonfire of burning money
Actually, I like the guy’s career so far, 55 wins, decent ERA, VERY consistent, averages 6 innings per start, all of which compares favorably to some of the 150+ wins 15+ years career pitchers of the past
It’s good he’s “forwarding the market” for starting pitchers. Heaven knows how underpaid those guys are.
This is Social Justice Warrior 101…….
Instead of saying, “I’m greedy and intend to get every single GD penny I can squeeze of out of a sucker”, you make it out like you’re helping the downtrodden.
After retiring from Baseball Mr. Berrios could run for political office. But he’s already set financially for life. Maybe he’ll become a part-time consultant for aspiring players, picking up a few measly millions working 10-15 hours a week maybe 3-4 months a year. Got to wear that jewelry so that the fans in the stands will go gaga over a guy wearing an accessory that’s with more than 95% of them make in a year. Think the players laugh at the fans? Check it out when the camera’s not on them…..all pro sports.
yeah, that alleged ambition is pretty LOL
SJW does not ever work, without a large field of suckers who are primarily guilt-tripped white people, guilt-tripped by the OTHER white people who invented the stupid concept to begin with, and who, after all is said and done, remain the ones in charge.
I far prefer the company of the guys, white brown black and red who can fix a John Deere to all these college doofuses who will swallow ANYTHING.
Unless Berrios has an otherworldly season next year (like 30 wins and an ERA under 1.00) he isn’t going to advance any market beyond being another overpriced middle of the rotation option.
That being said, the Twins will not trade him for anything less than a four or five player package with at least two top prospects involved so i doubt he’s going anywhere…
Exactly, he’s just not that good. He’s a weak number 2 or strong number 3, and his peripherals back it up.
That’s what I do in the accounting field. I advance the market. When I got an offer, I asked for 6.6% more, and settled for 3.3% more. Because of me, millions of accountants will now earn $1 more per hour than they would’ve.
I have no clue why players feel like they need to justify the pursuit of more money. Just say that you want to see what the market is before signing. There is nothing wrong with that. Don’t make it sound like you are doing something noble.
Yup. I have no problem at all with guys trying to get the most they can, but if they try to make it sound like that’s not what they’re doing it’s very annoying. Lots of dumb people buy it though.
As a fellow professional in the finance field, I just want to say thank you. I knew I was getting a $1 more per hour, but for the life of me couldn’t figure out from whence it came. Now I know, and you have my eternal gratitude, sir.
ROTFLMAO! That was me. But it wasn’t for me. I told my boss I wanted the extra 6.6% so that all the other accountants in the world could put food on the table.
Of course, he then told me he would need to clear that with his boss. So I folded like a napkin, and told him ‘screw Hyrax and the accounting world. Let’s split the difference.’.
Frazier and Andujar for Berrios
Might get you a signed Baseball
Eh, might get them a used baseball at most.
Okay, Frazier, Andujar and G Sanchez for Berrios, Buxton, Rogers, Royce Lewis, Kepler and $50 mil.
I think you’re underselling Frazier and Andujar. Don’t most of your fellow Yankee fans think those two can get you Trout? Throw in Sanchez and get Ohtani, too.
Maybe if Yankees throw in estevan Florial lol ! That’s another one with almost no value no ! Yankees are short handed in the outfield and he still doesn’t get the call up
but the asking price on Berrios will be as high as the asking price on any player who has a chance of being traded between now and July 30
you mean higher
So for the Jays this means something like Biggio, Woods-Richardson and Orelvis Martinez?
Pass
Berrios and Buxton are gone after next year. This front office has screwed over that core group so bad it’s unfathomable. See Escobar, Rosario, Pressly.
How do you keep Rosario when you have Kirilloff, Rooker & Larnach all ready to play in majors? Letting Rosario go was the smart thing to do.
Not a single one of that trio has done much to speak of this season, and Kirilloff has made some horrendous outfield defensive plays. I can’t help but think Rosarios personality is one of the “intangibles” that is the difference between back to back division titles, and fighting for a top draft pick.
Rosario batting .254 with 7 HR on the season. His OBP has been mediocre his entire career. He was also set to make ~$11 mil in arbitration.
If your wondering why the Twins are worse than last year look at the pitching.
Check out Kirilloff’s baseball savant. It shows a lot of unfortunate bad luck… He will be fine. I played vs him in high school he’s a stud.
Remember when fans lost their minds the twins didn’t pick up Rosarios option??? That was funny.
If they trade Berrios they better get a top notch pitching prospect in return. I’ve been a Twins fan my entire life & I don’t think Berrios is an ACE of a staff. I say deal him and maybe get a better pitcher in return. Twins prospect Jordan Balazovic maybe ready for the rotation next year.
Boom boom. Out go the lights. Gavin Sheets says hi!
You guys are so lucky Al Avila doesn’t run your team……
Blue Jays should get in on this. Gurriel, Groshans and someone else. There’s a package to give the twins if the Jays are interested.
You should call the Toronto front office. It may be that no thought of this has occurred to them yet.
Shatkins is too busy Dumpster diving for the next Tanner Roark.
If Berrios’ value is that he’s good, young, and under team control, wouldn’t it make sense for the Twins to keep him? They’re not in some full tear down, five year plan.
Brandon Marsh plus couple other lesser prospects from Angels sounds about right
As they should
I get it, he’s gonna make the most he can and I respect that but let’s be honest this guy hasn’t lit MLB on fire, his numbers are okay. Career ERA over 4.00 WHIP 1.24 and never won more than 14 games. Strike out totals are alright but nothing to write home about. He’s a good number 2 but an ace he is not.
Those are my thoughts on him, too. He’s an ace on a bad team, but a bad team will have no interest in trading for or signing him. He definitely has value, but seems to have more for a team on the cusp of the playoffs than to put a contender over the top.
A young and good #2 is very valuable.
berrios worth the asking price, he is the kind of piece who will take a team from contender status to WS Champions
LOL
All free agent players have their agents push that narrative.
Only if that contender is one SP away. Generally one player can’t make that huge a difference.
@Cosmo2;
You and Nuanced Jamesian are my favorite posters. While fans of your teams the two of you remain as objective as possible thanks to perspective which come from knowing history.
There have always been teams that went over the top when a missing link was added to what was there. Frank Robinson to the Orioles was classic. Sometimes even a part-time guy like Raul Ibanez can go onto a young KC Royals team and get them to jell; or a mid-rotation pitcher like James Shields can get with the team and not just become a productive #1, but be a leader / role model for the pitchers. A veteran on his last legs such as 2B Chase Utley can get on a Dodger team and push them over the top.
The trick is for the FO and Manager to recognize what’s needed, and who will fit the bill.
As for Berrio’s – who knows. He surely hasn’t pushed the Twins over the top. He’s not even their best starter. And who knows when he wakes up with a sore arm one day.
It’s a sellers market right now and the Twins have a lot of leverage.. With that said, I imagine now would be the most they could ever get for him, so they just need 1 of the contending teams to step up.
That’s odd. Every mlb reporter buster , Rosenthal, heyman among others will tell you correctly it’s a buyers market like it has been for years now.
Oh please……
Those guys get paid on clicks. Their connections are primarily to the agents and they carry water for them.
Almost every year since their current FO was in place, low-revenue teams such as the Rays, Indians, A’s and Brewers have been competitive. They never partake in the fever of getting the high-priced FA’s. And they’ve gotten to the WS more often then the Yankees and others that did partake.
But it is a buyers market…
Padres trade Paddack, Campusano and Morejon for Berrios and either Robles or Rogers, who says no?
The Dodgers…..The Dodgers say no…….
Morejon just had tommy John no ? Twins would want someone who could help them next year like maybe weathers instead
Yeah, paddack. Morejon is pretty much a throw in.
He should be back around may next season. So he may not be ready at the start but will help a team next year. The padres probably wouldn’t make this trade. Campusano alone is a lot. I dont think anyone is going to meet the twins asking price. Unless it comes down by about 50%.
The Padres are not going to trade multiple pitchers from their major league roster for another pitcher when they and everyone else in mlb is short on pitching. Especially not Weathers who is already out pitching Berrios practically for free and has 6 years of control.
Or how about this: Padres trade Paddack, Lamet and a decent prospect for Berrios. Lamet is electric when he’s on, but health is a big concern. Paddack has high upside, but with Clevinger coming back next year and Weathers playing so well might be kicked out of the rotation, so he doesn’t have that much value to the Padres.
Reynaldo Lopez for Berrios straight up!
This would be a steal for Twinks
So basically Cavan Biggio, Nate Pearson and Jordan Groshans… do it Ross!
Way too much for just Berrios. Biggio/Pearson/Kloff for Berrios/Rogers.
Langliers, Waters and an arm LFG