Oct. 25: Cordero went unclaimed on waivers and was assigned outright to Triple-A Worcester, tweets Ian Browne of MLB.com.
While Cordero could’ve rejected the assignment and become a free agent and tested the market, MassLive.com’s Chris Cotillo reports that Cordero quietly signed a one-year, $825K contract for the 2022 season at some point before he was passed through waivers (Twitter links). He’s still off the 40-man roster and would be owed the prorated portion of that salary for any time spent in the big leagues next season.
Oct. 21: The Red Sox have reinstated right-hander Phillips Valdez from the Covid-19-related injured list and cleared a spot on the roster by designating outfielder Franchy Cordero for assignment, per a club announcement. The team’s 40-man roster remains at 40 players.
Cordero, 27, was one of several players acquired in the three-team swap that sent outfielder Andrew Benintendi from Boston to Kansas City. Long touted as an immensely athletic and toolsy but unpolished upside case, Cordero wasn’t able to put things together in his Red Sox debut. The former Padres and Royals prospect tallied 136 plate appearances but managed only a .189/.237/.260 slash with a sky-high 37.5% strikeout rate.
While Cordero possesses elite speed, huge raw power and off-the-charts exit velocity numbers, it’s that strikeout rate that has continually hampered his ability to break out at the MLB level. The punchouts are simply nothing new, as he’s fanned in 35.7% of his career plate appearances between those three organizations.
To his credit, Cordero mashed his way through another season of Triple-A upon being sent down early in the year. Through 78 games with the WooSox, he posted a .300/.398/.533 batting line with 13 home runs, 24 doubles, two triples and a dozen steals (in 13 attempts). It’s a reminder of the tantalizing, innate ability that Cordero possesses but has not yet delivered in the Majors. He’ll now hit outright waivers, where the league’s other 29 teams will have the opportunity to claim him. If he passes through without a claim, the Sox can retain him by sending him outright to Triple-A.
It should, of course, be noted that the DFA of Cordero hardly closes the book on the Red Sox’ end of the Benintendi deal. The Sox still have four other players to show for that deal, though none has reached the Majors yet. Boston acquired right-hander Josh Winckowski and outfielder Freddy Valdez from the Mets (who received Khalil Lee from Kansas City), in addition to picking up righties Luis De La Rosa and Grant Gambrell from the Royals. Cordero was certainly the most recognizable name going back to Boston in the swap, but he wasn’t necessarily the key player in the deal.
As for Benintendi, he had a fine debut campaign in K.C., slashing .276/.324/.442 (106 wRC+) with 17 home runs, 27 doubles, two triples and eight steals (albeit with a woeful success rate, given his 17 attempts). He’s controllable for one more year via arbitration, with a projected 2022 salary of $9.3MM (courtesy of MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz).
KD17 will be all over this! LOL
So far it’s definitely looking like Bloom lost the Benny trade, but there’s still a possibility one or more of the minor league players that came with Franchy will blossom. Time will tell.
Yup that’s all that mediocre guy does on this site.
Not sure Bloom “lost” the Bene trade. It is today what it was when it happened; a MLB “meh” for 4 minor leaguers, who are all “meh”.
It DID save some coin, which Bloom likely used to sign Renfroe, who turned out pretty well. But I’d guess both Bene and Renfroe get non-tendered in the coming days. Nobody really wants to pay 9M for Bene, or 7M for Renfroe.
As a Rays fan, I’d love it if the Sox nontendered Renfroe. I think many teams would, including whomever snatched him up. Don’t know who the Sox have to replace him at such a low salary, but I sure hope they listen to folks like you.
Why the heck would we nontender him? He’s definitely worth the 7ish mil he’s going to make next year
Cmon Bob Tillman, you must be joking. Renfroe has become a fan favorite, led MLB outfielders in assists and was about a 90 run 100 rbi 30 homer guy (give or take a few in each category) and that production all at 7 million! There is not even a negative chance that they consider non tendering renfroe
It was actually at 3 million this year. I just don’t see a scenario where the Red Sox non-tender him. I believe the Red Sox control him through 2023 through the arb process unless that changes through the new upcoming labor agreement.
Huh? I’d love it if they bought out a FA year in a small extension.
I’m hoping that they buy out his control years and maybe 1 FA and 1 team option. He won’t be a FA until he’s 32 to start the season. He has to know that he isn’t breaking the bank. I don’t think it will cost a huge amount to extend him.
Idk. While you probably do not want to pay anymore for either the arbitration costs are not outrageous. Ben is a solid average+ LF who would still have value in a trade to a good team. Renfro looks a bit better if Swcharber and/or JD opt out unless you’re confident Duran can have an impact next year.
Tillman are you on planet earth?
I would be surprised if either are non-tendered. The Royals have very few salary commitments and Benintendi had a nice rebound there. Renfroe was a steal and definitely someone the Sox should retain
@Rsox. Bene can’t be non-tendered.
Giants74 – Okay forgive my ignorance, why can’t Benny be non-tendered?
He’s arb-eligible, the Royals don’t have to tender him a contract. And since his current contract has expired, it wouldn’t be a release.
So what am I missing here?
@Fever Hmmm…I am wrong. His contract status confused me. Most arb eligible players are on 1 year deals. He signed a contract to cover arb years 1&2, and not arb year 3. That is odd. The multi year deals for arb eligible players are signed to keep them from reaching free agency. I have never seen that done. You lose payroll flexibility.
You lose flexibility, but gain certainty. It pulls salary into the current year from the following year, but you could use that to your advantage if you are going to be under this year and over next year.
But to your statement, this is exactly where Preller screwed up this year. He signed Tatis on 2/22/21, which means he counts against 2021. He could’ve had a hand shake agreement with Tatis’s agent, and announced the signing after the first game, and his new salary wouldn’t start until 2022. That would’ve given them another $24M of cap space at the deadline, making the acquisition of Scherzer a little bit more likely.
Giants74 – Okay thanks for the explanation. With all the recent rule changes, I just wanted to make sure I didn’t miss one.
I don’t think it’s odd, the Royals didn’t want to guarantee more than 2 years. Can’t really blame them, considering his injury history.
@joebrady If they wanted certainty, they should have signed him to 4 years, instead of 2, at a much lower cost. I highly doubt Bene is going to accept a 1 year deal through Arbitration. And he will get a raise. Just look at Bumgarner. He signed a long term contract very early in Arbitration. One could easily argue that he probably left $50 million on the table.
Are you talking about Beninetendi? He can’t be non-tendered. He can be released. There is no reason to do that.
No chance Renfroe gets non-tendered with the season he had. Even if the Red Sox don’t want him (which they do) he would figure to draw some trade interest. Also a great clubhouse guy despite what brown_boot wants people to believe.
The typical value for WAR in MLB, or $/war is $3.9M per win. Given that Renfroe was a 2.4 WAR player that equates to $9.36M. So a $7M contract is completely reasonable.
I’ve seen much higher numbers thrown around for that equation. 3.9 seems pretty reasonable.
dmd74 – One must be careful using WAR out of context. WAR is a theoretical number based on a million assumptions for comparison purposes. Enthusiasts use it to predict the future, evaluate the past and so many other things it’s not meant to measure that it’s meaning is completely skewed beyond it’s true value.
After the fact, saying a WAR level in the past has averaged a specific salary is fine but to flip that into a predictor for payroll is ridiculous. Last year’s WAR does not suggest next years WAR so last year’s WAR shouldn’t predict next year’s salary.
Salary should be based on facts not the conjecture built into the WAR statistics. Batting average, fielding percentage, OBP, SLG and stolen bases are the ingredients that should be used to predict salary since they are the true measures of performance. Using WAR to estimate salary is like using the farmer’s almanac to predict pay for a farm worker. It’s a lot safer to check hours worked the previous year and the performance of the worker per hour during that year rather than some guess as to what might happen in the future.
Also, Curt Flood fought for free agency so Renfroe should make what the market will dictate. The numbers are not union numbers they are set by the expectations of 30 organizations. Renfroe has an OPS+ that historically brings between $3M to $8M in future payroll. If, however, a bidding war occurs he might make over $10M from the over-bidder or if there is a glut of Renfroe-like players in his free agency year then he may get what he got this year. Predicting salary has many variables so limiting your viewpoint to a misused stat like WAR is short-sighted in my opinion.
That’s completely wrong. (1) WAR is worth around $8 million. Not anywhere near 3 million. It hasn’t been that low for years my god dude. Do some more research
dmd74 – How did you arrive at that $3.9M amount?
Because for example a pre-arb 2.4 WAR player will almost always get paid a lot less than a free agent 2.4 WAR player. Service time matters.
As for Renfroe, he’s arb eligible and estimated to make $7.5M next year.
KD17: spot on! I love stats like WAR but they must be used with tons of context. Stats that use WAR to predict viable salaries are never accurate.
I’ve seen that WAR is worth about 8 milllion per, which is ABSURD!!!! That equation is obviously very flawed and designed to justify over the top contracts. So a healthy deGrom is worth 70 million a year? Ridiculous!
Since WAR is contrived pseudostat, any supposed monetary “value” imposed on it is meaningless.
“I’ve seen that WAR is worth about 8 milllion per, which is ABSURD!!!!”
You’re taking that way out of context. That is in relation to Free Agents, not every ball player. And it is statistically proven,
The higher WAR numbers are FA WAR numbers. If folks calculate overall Salary per WAR numbers, they are going to be far lower than what one pays for a FA, since they include control players. $3.9 & $8.0 could both be correct, depending on which cohort you refer to.
Using Lindor’s contract as an example, and starting with a 5.1 WAR base, and with some reasonably small declines over the 10 years, his salary is about 9.2M/WAR.
It is just no way statistically proven, free agency or otherwise. You can’t prove such a thing statistically, go ahead and try to even prove that case empirically; can’t be done. Do if Trout hit free agency today it would be justified to give him 80 million a year? Ridiculous!
According to Fangraph: “Cost of a Win in FA”
2018 $8.1 M/WAR
2019 $6.8 M/WAR
2020 $8.0 M/WAR
Argue with them.
There’s nothing to argue. Their guesses and estimates to attempt correlation doesn’t mean any more ore less than anybody else’s.
I’m going to agree with SDHotDawg in this instance and just leave it at there’s no effing way Hunter Renfroe gets non-tendered this offseason. He’s not a guy the Red Sox will refuse to trade in the face of a compelling offer, but he’ll be tendered a contract.
Lots of numbers are estimates. It doesn’t follow that a number is meaningless, just because it is an estimate.
dennyd: those are estimates, nothing proven; it’s all too theoretical. I don’t need to argue with them but maybe you need to learn how to sort through info and think for yourself. Fangraphs would never make the definitive claims you are making, you are misunderstanding their generalizations which are debatable and they would admit as such. Speculative theory on a baseball website is NOT proof of anything, contrary to your claim, I hate to break it to you.
Cosmo2
It is just no way statistically proven,
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You’re conflating the average cost per WAR with the actual value supplied. It doesn’t matter whether the Lindor contract is too high or too low. I am merely telling you how much the NYMs paid per WAR.
In addition, WAR for FAs is calculated over a number of years. A player doesn’t get his current year WAR * the number of years. He gets his expected WAR for 2022, plus a discounted WAR for each successive year.
A more intuitive presentation for Lindor is that he is getting paid $46.92M for his first year, for an expected WAR of 5.1, which declines to $17.48M in his 10th year for an expected 1.9 WAR.
Cosmo2
dennyd: those are estimates, nothing proven;
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There is an element of estimating, but the margins for error are quite small. In my example, I am using 5.1 WAR for Lindor next year. I got that from FG, as did I get 22-23. After that, I estimated a decline of 0.3 WAR per year 3 years, followed by a decline of 0.4 for two years, followed by a decline of 0.5 for 2 years.
Of course he could do better or worse, but the declines are based on tracking thousands of players. But even if you changed the rate of decline to 0.6 or 0.4, instead of 0.5, the amount of WAR will not be materially changed.
“I don’t get it, so it’s wrong!”
I’m not really disagreeing with you so much, just the idea that these estimates are proof of anything. They’re just the mathematical manifestation of an opinion. An opinion I think is very biased and designed to justify out of control, way too large contracts/annual salaries. There is plenty of room for discussion; my issue is with dennyd’s above claim of proof that WAR not only has an exact monetary value, but that’s it’s been “proven” to be around 8 million. That, I find absurd. (WAR itself isn’t even an exact or particularly accurate stat; it’s theory on top of theory and needs tons of context to be used properly, so the very concept of equating it to a one size fits all monetary figure is crazy).
“Fangraph would never make the difinitive claims”
Its a freaky article they wrote. Those number are copied and pasted from their website. Do ten seconds of research. I gave you the name of the article and where it came from. Its their statistics. I don’t need to do “sort through info and think for myself” you dimwit. If your saying Fangraph is wrong, fine with me, but you look pretty stupid disagreeing with an analytical website on, of all things, analytics.
Ugh. Try to understand what I’m saying and focus on “definitive”. They are ESTIMATES. I know fangraphs publishes that, but they do NOT claim that their formula is a proven fact, it is, again, an estimate. A disputable estimate. Nothing “proven” as you claim. By the way, not everything they put on their site is gospel, you know. And in this case even they would never claim that their numbers were anything but an estimate. You are misunderstanding all of this. You need to do more than copy and paste someone else’s estimate in order to PROVE your own case. … think for yourself sometime. I believe in analytics yet am capable of disagreeing with SOME of its conclusions. (And fangraphs isn’t analytics itself, it’s one of many sites, many of which offer DIFFERING opinions. Bill James, for example, would disagree with the estimate you provide as if it were incontrovertible fact).
@1984 …
Unless you can actually understand and perform the fairly advanced mathematics required to come up with some of those contrived “stats” you’re so fond of quoting, then you probably don’t see the irony in your comment.
Cosmo2 – Welcome to my world!! There are several contributors who simply don’t get the concepts you are presenting but remain vocal despite their lack of knowledge.
Great stuff!!
SDHotDawg – AWESOME. I wish we could list all the variables and constants that are built into the calculations of the contrived/derived numbers used carelessly by average fans jumping on Fangraphs to show they know baseball.
I wish we could explain that averaging averages and believing a specific history of behavior in the past will project into the future in the exact same way is no better than your opinion or my opinion because nobody can accurately predict the future.
Fangraphs provides summarized data that’s all. If someone at Fangraphs wants to interpret the data in their own specific way that’s great but it’s not a fact. Last year’s batting average is a fact. WAR is just one company’s attempt to create what-if analysis between players. It’s a rationalization if in the past or prediction if it’s in the future just like someone predicting a batting average for the next year.
Bloom only signed Renfroe to a one year contract without an option why is that when everyone else he signed had at least a two year contract. Is Bloom an idiot or does he know the fact that Boston controls Renfroe through the arbitration process through 2022 so in effect he signed a guy a that he controlled through the arb process. Renfroe cant test free agency until 2023 unless he is released like Tampa did then he becomes a free agent for that year only he is still bound to arbitration through 2022. Now there is caveat to all of this in that we don’t know what is going to happen in the next labor agreement this offseason but as of right now Boston controls Renfroe through 2022.
Cosmo215 hours ago
An opinion I think is very biased and designed to justify out of control, way too large contracts/annual salaries
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WAR is not used to justify salaries. The salary a FA gets is the result of teams bidding against each other.
And salaries are not too large. If an owner willingly gives Syndergaard $18M, it is because he thinks Syndergaard is worth $18M. And top BB players probably don’t get paid more than top actors or top musicians. At the end of the day, if I want to pay $100 to see Paul McCartney, then he is worth $100.
And I doubt that any GM just uses WAR. They probably have a binder on every FA that might interest them, with a 100 different statistics. WAR is more for the fans to be able to make quick calculations. None of us is going to keep binders on players.
I doubt any GM actually uses WAR. If there is one or two that do, they are the fools who ignore their scouting departments and have an analytics guy that doesn’t understand baseball or statistical analysis at its core.
The way I figure it, every stat has multiple stats supporting that stat.. For a GM, they have an entire department of mathematicians to drill down to every level.
WAR is more for the fans, as a quick and accurate assessment of a players’ value.
Quick, but hardly accurate.
Joe – Well said.
I agree with everything except the part about WAR being an accurate assessment of a player’s value.
It is not, because it’s context neutral.
Here’s what Mr. Bill James has to say about the stat:
“Aaron Judge was nowhere near as valuable as Jose Altuve. Why? Because he didn’t do nearly as much to win games for his team as Altuve did. It is NOT close. The belief that it is close is fueled by bad statistical analysis — not as bad as the 1974 statistical analysis, I grant, but flawed nonetheless. It is based essentially on a misleading statistic, which is WAR. Baseball-Reference WAR shows the little guy at 8.3, and the big guy at 8.1.”
Judge consistently performed poorly in high-leverage situations: he recorded the worst Clutch score of any player in 2017 per FanGraphs, despite leading the MLB in fWAR.
Player fWAR Clutch AL MVP vote points
Jose Altuve 7.5 -0.56 405
Aaron Judge 8.2 -3.64 279
Jose Ramirez 6.6 -2.57 237
Mike Trout 6.9 -1.04 197
Francisco Lindor 5.9 1.05 142
You should have used the older Bill James quote where he called WAR a practically useless stat because of its bad statistical analysis and attempts to compare things that can’t be compared.
Yeah years ago when WAR first became the latest fad, I dug deep into it and came up with several specific reasons why it’s not an accurate reflection of a player’s true value. I would give specific examples of how it’s flawed, and the people pushing it had no response. Really it’s just a manufactured way for certain entities to make money. I can’t believe some people still cling to it, probably because the two most popular sources for MLB stats continue using it …. or I should say, continue using their OWN version of it.
Amazing how the same people who treated Bill James like a God years ago have turned against him because they don’t like what he’s been saying more recently.
Same here. I used to love what they were doing in the early days of SABRmetrics. Then I dug into the math. Fortunately, my education and job required a lot of advanced math and statistical analysis, so I was able to call BS in their own language. I think I was one of the first people to get kicked off the old SABR website forums – for using math to point out the flaws in their “stats!” They’re almost like a cult.
At least Bill James was always honest about his equations and their limitations.
Side — Brian Kenny doesn’t know what he’s talking about and is leading the ignorance.
Yea Bill James is the guy to go to for honest assessments.
Bill James was a big part in blazing the path for analytics in baseball.
And now he gets stepped on by entities that are reaping the benefits of his hard work.
Doesn’t seem quite right, now does it?
1-I’m curious how they define ‘high leverage’. According to FG, he had 59 PAs in high leverage, with 4 HRs. According to BR, he had 122 PAs with 7 HRs.
2-Even using the FG numbers, it is impossible to figure out how they rate him poorly in high leverage situations. In 2017, in 48 ABs, he had 4 HRs, and FG gives him credit for 31 runs (just about impossible) and 18 RBIs. Extrapolating that over 600 ABs, that gives him 387 runs, 50 HRs and 225 RBIs.
3-I don’t really believe in ‘clutchness’, but it looks like his high leverage stats look similar to his regular season stats. BR shows a high leverage OPS of .884 against a regular OPS of .940. FG shows a career high leverage of .881. That’s all pretty close.
4-Since this started with a comparison with Altuve, Altuve’s career BR high leverage OPS is only .765 against Judge’s .884, and FG high leverage OPS for Altuve is only .758 compared to Judge’s .881.
This goes back to my 3rd point. Over a single season, there could be huge fluctuations in clutchness. But over longer periods, most players clutchness start to resemble their career clutchness. I think that’s the case in Bill James analysis. if you want to give out MVP votes on the basis of clutchness, that’s reasonable. But over the long run, it is unlikely to hold up, as it certainly hasn’t in the Judge/Altuve example.
“And now he gets stepped on by entities that are reaping the benefits of his hard work.”
That’s how the world works. The Japanese have a concept for this. they say that, when they introduce a product, that product is in the worst shape of it will ever be in, if only because it will always be improved. Either by the inventor, or more often, by someone copying the concept.
After all, does anyone remember the first light beer, or who first developed DOS (not Gates), or the 100 iterations of what was originally the Sony Walkman?
I think, @tillman, that Moore will hold on to Benenennentieniendi. He seems pretty convinced that KC is close to competing. Erroneously, of course. But I don’t see a non-tender in his future. Hell, they just extended Michael A Taylor they were so enamored with that .650 OPS to continue “locking down” CF.
bobtillman – I specifically said “so far it’s looking” because Benny has had a rebound season and the player Boston received that everyone thought had the best chance of making the majors failed miserably.
Here’s the thing, Bloom traded Benny when his value was at an all-time low. He was coming off an injury-plagued 2019 season in which his numbers were down a bit, followed by a horrendous injury-plagued season which included all of 14 games. It was the WORST POSSIBLE TIME to trade him.
And we are talking about a player who had an extremely high ceiling. A player who was so valued just a few years ago that when the Chisox demanded him as part of the Sale trade, the Red Sox refused and gave up another prized prospect (Moncada) instead.
That’s why, if the world were to end today, Bloom’s trading of Benny would go down as a bad one. And if Benny even goes back to just his 2018 numbers, the trade could turn into a horrible one.
So…if he goes back to his career best numbers? I’m going to guess the Redsox did not find that to be likely when they traded him.
FPG – Benny has one year left in KC and already has a good season under his belt and he looked like old Benny in Sept. Cordero is a negative value and the kiddie corp of 4 won’t add value in 2022.
The deal is a win for KC now and will be an even bigger win after 2022.
The lose of Benny will bite BOS for years since he was a home grown player with above league average contribution at an appropriate price. Fans will always remember his catch against HOU. Losing Benny was an unnecessary mistake by Bloom.
1984 – Yes, On the surface it would appear that Bloom once again did a bad job evaluating the future of a player. If you did deeper, you’ll find that all too often during the last two years black and white players have been undervalued while many, many Latin players have been over-valued. Is it a coincidence or a systemic problem? The press thinks it’s systemic and on the surface, I agree. As a long time fan, I’m appalled. Lose the bias and evaluate players from a performance perspective only. If they had, Benny would still be in Boston playing with Mookie and Price.
I agree, however I think their assessment was wrong.
Time will tell.
Neither of those guys is getting non tendered. KC is actually looking to extend Benintendi, Renfroe hit 30+ bombs and nearly 100 RBI plus makes peanuts and led MLB OF in assists.
Mollysdad – Great points. Benny batted third in their line-up and spent a good portion of the year reversing what the Boston coaches did to destroy his swing. By Sept he was back to being the old Benny and on KC that makes him one of their top hitters.
Renfroe is a well priced outfielder who needs to return so the team can use the available money to get things they need. With Verdugo and Renfroe and Duran in the outfield the Red Sox will spend less than $7M for the 3 starters. With Vazquez, Dalbec, Bogey, Kiki and the new DH Devers the Red Sox will roughly spend $45M on their DH and infield and need a new 3B. A big bat 3B would help replace JD and Schwarber’s bats and a stud SP would fill out the starting staff.
Benny was an excellent placeholder in LF. Renfroe is a similar commodity. The issues that remain are 1) the huge step down from Mookie to Verdugo and 2) Can Duran be the long-term solution in CF? The Red Sox stupidity lies in the fact that they need a stud lead off man and gave up Betts the perfect guy for the job. The Red Sox stupidity lies in not moving Devers to DH when the 2019 season was destroyed after DD got fired. Trading JD at the deadline would have fixed the problem at 3B two years earlier!! The team has no rings and has no reason to foresee any in the near future so setting the long-term line-up after the 2019 should have been Bloom’s priority. Instead, he destroyed the future by not signing Mookie and has yet to pick up a hitter to replace Mookie. Verdugo and Renfroe are good replacements for Benny and JBJ but the ONE stud OF which the 2018 team had is gone. The infield is basically comparable to the 2018 team with a hole at 3B if Devers goes to DH to replace JD. So no Mookie and no JD and a hole at 3B but lots of money to fill the hole at 3B and upgrade the starting staff and closer presents Bloom with an opportunity to raise the level of talent. Will he? It’s doubtful. If he hasn’t in two years there is no reason to think he will suddenly change in year 3, especially after the 2018 hitters gave the fans in 2021 what they’ve been seeking….. hope.
So Benny will thrive in KC as the 3 hitter on a weaker team, Chavis will thrive in Pittsburgh and show all the doubters that he was in fact a far better fielder than Devers (albeit that says next to nothing because Devers is the worst in baseball). Mookie will play for a team committed to making the playoffs and spending NYY type money to win so he has more rings in his future. Hopefully, players Bogey and Devers don’t see how much greener the grass is on the other side of the fence. Because with Bloom and Cora, the grass is greener just about anywhere else!!
Two of the guys just turned 19. It’ll take another 5 years.
Giants74 – Great point. Bloom hopefully will be gone before they get to AA. Also, based on their age and velocity TJ surgery is probably in the mix during the next 5 years so push the arrival date back for the pitchers.
It;’s amazing how much attention you give someone who is doing nothing but trolling you.
I have been telling people to ignore KD. He is a troll and wants Sox fans to treat him as relevant.
I treat KD as a learning tool. When he predicts 65 wins for the RS, it is an opportunity to teach others from KD’s mistakes.
Lost the Benny trade. Its comments like this that make me shake my head. Benentendi has done crap with KC. 106 WAR+, worst baserunner in baseball, and will probably be waived by KC. Winckowski and De La Rosa make this trade.
Last week you claimed Judge was going to get 300mil, and everyone laughed at you. Stop making baseball this constant prediction game, where you need to always find the smallest crumb to justify you were “right”. Its a freaking game not a lottery.
“……..and will probably be waived by KC.”
How many weeks have you been following MLB?
Do you know anything whatsoever about how the Royals value players, and what they think of Benintendi?
Yea, they’re not waiving Benintendi.
I agree he lost this trade but I’m still glad we got rid of Benintendi. I didn’t think he was a great fit.
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Well said.
How can anyone disagree with that?
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I am diametrically opposed to you.
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I hope the Cubs look into acquiring Cordero, they can afford to take the risk and I still think the upside is there. Go, Cubs!
Manny – A bit confused by you saying you are a Cub fan and suggesting they take on a bad journeyman ball player with athleticism but very few true baseball skills. Most Cub fans should be rooting for him to go to St. Louis or Milwaukee and hope the Cubs get quality players instead!
KD17;
Interesting posts.
How many weeks have you been following MLB?
Samuel – 3,172 weeks so far. How about you?
KD17,
Simple, in the minors he has shown tools and had results. The tools and results did not translate in short sample to the show. A contender cannot wait to see if minor adjustments get the results to translate to the majors. The Cubs have that time and the cost would be low.
My second favorite team is the Dodgers. Cordero is not a fit for them in 2022.
But for the Cubs, definitely, I would acquire Cordero if it just requires a roster spot. Cordero is an older prospect who is delayed in part due to injuries, not a bad journeyman player as you describe him.
And KD17, congratulations on your 70th birthday. If you assume that you started following MLB at 9 years old and 3172 divided by 52 weeks a year equals 61 years, that puts you at 70.
MannyB – Your reasoning for separating the Cubs from the Dodgers is excellent. I agree completely that if a player like Cordero is to ever prove himself it would need to be in an organization with low expectations in the next couple of years and the Cubs fit that profile.
Cordero started playing in 2012 at age 17. At that point, he looked to have a promising future. I believe San Diego made several mistakes with him like Philly did with Pivetta and Boston did with Downs. Cordero spent his 17 and 18 year old seasons in ROK ball. Struggled a bit at 17 but mastered that level by 18 which was impressive. At 19 SD started him at Low A where he did not prove much except his power was improving but his ability to show good hand/eye coordination wasn’t proven. His walk rate was average for a player that age. They moved him to A ball before he was ready to move. (a common mistake) and he struggled in 22 games at A ball at age 19. Superstars usually show superstar tendencies by this age so his ceiling was lowered significantly at this point. In 2015 at age 20 he had a second mediocre season further reducing his ceiling. Many players never progress after not show signs of mastering A level pitching after two seasons.
Naturally, after two mediocre seasons and a very impatient front office, the Padres moved him to Hi A in 2016 at age 21. For 74 games he put up very average numbers so they made yet another mistake and promoted him to AA. Playing in a very hitter friendly park in a weak pitching league Cordero improved his numbers from Hi A and showed his speed in hitting many triples but not many HRs or SBs. In September he got called up prematurely to AAA and played 4 games and got 1 hit in 16 at bats. Very much like what Downs did when LAD promoted him to AA at the end of the 2019 season and he hit .333 in 12 games after being a .260 hitter for his first 1900 at bats in the minors. LAD wanted to move Downs so they promoted him and BOS took the bait.
Cordero finished the year in the Arizona League where he failed miserably. That failure along with the problems at AAA kept him at AAA as his 22 year old season started in 2017.
As it turns out, 2017 in AAA was a very good season where he developed more power to go with his speed. 17 HRS and 15 SBs in 93 games at AAA. He got his second call-up to the Padres at 22 and once again did not do well. He played in 30 games with a .228 batting average meaning he was not able to adapt to MLB pitching from his success at AAA.
At this point he’s in the majors and SD is trying to develop him while on a MLB roster. In 40 games he hit .237 in 2018. The develop him in the MLB plan wasn’t working so they moved him down to AAA and later that year he played in the Dominican Winter League without success. Now the Padres had a 24 year old who failed twice at the MLB level and who had fallen off so much he wasn’t even dominant in the DOWL.
2019 at age 24 Cordero fails miserably in 11 games at three different levels and is sent once again to improve in the DOWL where he regains his confidence and puts up much better numbers until COVID hits. During the COVID delay he’s traded to KC and plays 16 games with the Royals and does miserably yet again.
With KC he he returns to the DOWL and struggles again before being traded to the Red Sox in 2021. He plays well at AAA and gets promoted to the Red Sox and once again fails miserably at the MLB level for the fourth time.
His peak best at the MLB level would be a non power hitter with some speed who hits around .250 with an OBP of .300. That’s a fair ceiling based on his career in the minors and majors. I think the Cubs should shoot higher than that for their future players even if he is cheap.
Cordero will be 27 in 2022 and has a career .221 batting average in 143 games at the MLB level. The four failed attempts can be blamed on San Diego, KC and Boston for not being patient and allowing him to dominate at AAA before promoting him. At this point, after four tries at MLB pitching and four failures, he should be tagged as a minor league journeyman in my opinion. The ceiling has dropped significantly from his younger days. I don’t believe the Cubs should touch him at any price.
FYI… I started following baseball in 1960 while watching Ted Williams play in his final season. Yep, 5 years earlier than you expected but when as a child you hear baseball bedtime stories from as far back as you remember it’s not surprising that I started collecting baseball cards at age 3! I sure wish it wasn’t cool to put your cards in the spokes of your bikes to make an engine sound!! So many Mantle cards ruined!!
Sometimes its just easier to say “he can’t hit.”
Cordero CAN hit. He is a monster with the bat. Go to a minor league game or a spring game. WHACK goes Franchy.
Probably, he also rakes in the cage, off the tee, and every so often in Winter ball.
So, he hits everywhere (but at the one, isolated level that gets the most scrutiny – but he has excellent Whiff Velocity). Go see him in BP!
Neither of those guys is getting non tendered. KC is actually looking to extend Benintendi, Renfroe hit 30+ bombs and nearly 100 RBI plus makes peanuts and led MLB OF in assists.
He can hit in the batting cage and off a tee…..I’m waiting for the punch line…..what are you saying?
A true AAAA player
Please Mets this has reclamation project-turned eventual MVP written all over it
Reclamation project? There is nothing there to reclaim. And his numbers are getting worse.
Gotta get him and Jose Marmolejos on the same AAA team next year. They may not lose a game.
A great case study in showing that exit velocity doesn’t mean a thing if you can’t make any contact.
or sprint speed if you’re never on base
These are both silly answers. Of course that’s true, nobody ever said different.
You can’t teach those skills though so if you are measuring things that really good players can do, those are metrics of unique attributes that not all players can replicate. If this guy can ever figure it out, and who knows if he will, he will have abilities that are above average and that’s why people still talk about him.
Yeah I don’t think teams are looking to acquire Franchy and saying to themselves that even if he can’t hit consistently that he’s still somehow inherently valuable to them because he has the ability to hit the ball really hard and he can run really fast.
They’re looking at him and thinking it’s rare that they have players with the capability to generate that kind of sprint speed and exit velocity and seeing if it’s possible to develop his other seriously lacking skills like contact etc… to the point where there he would actually become valuable. It’s basically high risk/high reward and he’s been a bust so far.
You think he’ll ever figure out what a glove is for?
I don’t.
He was just on waivers, any team could have claimed him but didn’t……nuff said
Yeah but Boston did stack the deck against a claim by signing him to a $825K deal before they DFA’ed him. If he elected FA some other team would have scooped him up at a lower rate
If I’m Ben Cherington I’d be putting in a claim. The Pirates need to be taking risks like this. The cost is minimal and he’s still young with a huge ceiling. Very similar to Anthony Alford who’s already on the roster. I understand there’s a roster crunch coming due to the rule 5 draft but grab him now and figure it out at that time.
Cordero is terrible and he’s never gonna amount to anything but if there’s a team that might make sense to take a chance it’s the lowly Pirates. Gotta figure there’s a bunch better gambles out there with lesser name recognition though. The guy is terrible.
Cordero young? He’s 26. He looks to be more on the downside of his career.
A quick internet search shows the average age of a major league base ball player is 28.2, so yes I’d say he’s still young. Most ball players peak seasons are from ages 27-31. So there is still potential for improvement. These are some the outfielders the Pirates have signed or claimed the last two years. Jarrod Dyson, Brian Goodwin, Dustin Fowler, Kai Tom, Troy Stokes Jr, and Ben Gamel. Add in all the infielders that they have sent to the outfield Difo, Nogoski, Tucker, etc. so yeah I’d like them to claim him.
Most players peak at 28-31? I don’t think that’s true, do you have actual research for this? I mean it’s probably close to that but a bit younger I’d say. And being below the average age of all major leaguers doesn’t make him young for these purposes. He’s heading into his age 27 season, cherry-picked anecdotes aside, it’s pretty rare for a bad player to suddenly become good at that age so he’s really not young in this context. Plus, he’s terrible.
@truth Sure, Franchy could improve. But, his numbers are going in the wrong direction. He is really not that much better than half the players you listed.
26 is the downturn of his career?
So Seager and Correa are washed up, old men? Ridiculous
@before McCourt Your funny. Are you seriously trying to compare Franchy to Correa, or Seager?
@ Giants74, I don’t think McCourt he’s saying that at all, he’s saying 26 isn’t old.
The Padre’s Cronenworth didn’t amount to anything until he was 26 or 27. Some guys take time and in Cordero’s case, his bad luck with injuries has been his bugaboo (this article didn’t even mention that fact).. So while he’s mid-20s, he still has potential and a team will definitely pick him up.
Cro was a college player. He was almost 22 when he played his first pro game. Frankly, the whole age thing is ridiculous.
I’ll bet he could hit in Camden Yards, but the O’s need to focus on pitching.
I thought the Os did a good job picking up Mateo last year. He’s not killing it, but he’s not a donut either. With a guy like Cordero, it could be that getting cut a couple of times might motivate him to re-think his approach.
Joe agreed. The other motivator is the “split contract” he just signed. He gets a prorated $825,000 in the MLB and the prorated next to nothing in AAA. That should help motivate him…if he had the talent to motive.
Then again, all the motivation and effort can’t make someone hit consistently if they do not possess that ability.
Even better. I didn’t realize it was a split contract. He needs an entire season in the minors. And I mean 2-3 months in AA and 2-3 months in AAA. If it helps, after he was demoted at the end of last season, he managed a legit .986 OPS in AAA with a 21/11 K/W.
If he could do that in the pros, he’d be a DH somewhere.
Cordero would be a great grab for the Pirates if they so choose. They are almost devoid of both outfielders and power hitters ready for the majors.
Except that he’s terrible. Yes he’s an outfielder and his talent is that he has power but who cares if he’s still gonna be terrible, which he is. Profile doesn’t matter if your OPS+ is below 90.
The Bucs have nothing to lose going after this guy. He’s almost certain to be better than Oliva or Tom, and maybe better than Alford or Tsutsugo. I think they should jump on this. His minor league numbers are solid. There’s little risk involved.
Budgetball – Yes they have something to lose. A spot on their roster for a viable MLB player!!! Cordero is athletic but without baseball skills. His speed doesn’t even translate into SBs at this point because his baseball acumen is so low. Pittsburgh should not behave like a gambler in Vegas trying to win back money by playing extremely high risk chances. They need to do their homework, pick solid first round guys and wait.
Renfroe was picked up for $3M. They just need to do their homework and find players with comparably low costs but true baseball skills not just athleticism.
Exactly! Of course there’s something to lose. His spot could be used to give an opportunity to someone else. If he fails, that’s an entire wasted spot, wasted at bats etc…
BudgetBall: You know, just because you’ve heard his name before doesn’t make it worthwhile for your team to waste precious opportunities on him. He’s not good.
Guys like Renfroe probably won’t sign with Pittsburgh for the money and years that they are likely to offer. I’ll bet Cherington inquires about the availability of lots of players that have true baseball skills and their agents tell him “thanks, but no thanks”. Guys like Difo, Gamel and Tsutsugo, as well as Cordero, are guys who can help the team for a year or two until the top prospects are ready. Cordero might not work out, but if he does, the Bucs get him for $1 mil or so. If he has a really strong year, he’ll be gone by 31 July. I wish we had access to a list of players Cherington has inquired about and was told by their agents that there is no chance they’d consider Pittsburgh during their perpetual total rebuild.
But there are better bets out there than Cordero.
Let’s hope Ben finds them and they are willing to come to Pittsburgh.
Cherington can’t sign Renfroe. Would have to trade for him.
Just a generalization…guys like Renfroe probably wouldn’t sign with the Bucs.
Budgetball – As a Pirates fan would you trade Boston Hayes for Devers? As a Red Sox fan I would make that deal in a heart beat but I’m curious to know if Pirate fans know what they have in Hayes.
I’d like to see Hayes for a full season. He looks like a future gold glover. His minor league fielding was outstanding. He hasn’t hit for much power yet. He’s smallish at 5’10” 205 lbs. If he stays healthy, he’ll be an everyday player for the Pirates until he becomes an UFA unless the Bucs sign him to one of those deals like Cutch and Marte had which buys out two years of free agency. The same kind of deal I hope Reynolds will be signed for. Hayes and Reynolds are the only quality everyday players on the roster. Everyone else is a platoon guy. So, for now, I would not trade Hayes. Hayes May grow into a 20 HR guy. That would work for me with the gold gloves.
BudgetBall – Thanks for the reply. I read so many opinions on Devers because he is a great hitter who can’t field but many are fine with the one dimensional nature and take no issue with passing Devers mistakes to the pitching staff in the form of higher ERAs, WHIPs and fewer innings pitched. Personally, I prefer a more complete player so I like Hayes.
At 24, like Devers, I don’t think he will improve his power much but he looks to be the type of hitter than might win a batting title and steal a dozen or two bases each year along with his top end defensive skills.
Comparing the two defensively we see Hayes at 24 has had 1540 total chances and has made 35 errors whereas Devers at 24 has had 2513 total chances and made 166 errors. So in less than double the chances Devers has made 5 times as many errors. Funny how people still believe he’s getting better or is acceptable at 3B!! Pittsburgh is lucky to have Hayes. I hope he stays longer than most and the same for Reynolds.
He is one of the worst outfielders I’ve ever seen. But, if you want him …
Technically he would become a minor league free agent or would qualify since he has 7 years of minor league experience
Rays will claim him and turn him into Nelson Cruz 2.0.
Hopefully pre-trade Cruz…that trade was a failure (i watch every Rays game–the guy did not come thru at all, and in the playoffs he was useless.). Great player who may be done. (Unless he pulls a Renfroe and goes somewhere else and actually hits like he is supposed to…)
It might take him until Cruz’s age to start hitting.
Lamonte Wade Jr’s career slash was .211/.336/.347 before his break out season at age 27. Franchy Cordero career slash is .221/.283/.380 and he turned 27 this past September. Why do people post hot takes with little substance?
because not every hitter is LaMonte Wade Jr?
@truth Your funny. Wade had the highest strike out rate of his career last year at 22%. Franchy, except for 9 games in KC, has never had a strike out rate below 35%. There is not a lot of room for improvement.
It’s not a hot take to say a bad player is bad.
Other guys not named lamonte:
Aguilar didn’t get regular ABs until 27. Has an .814 since.
Haniger no regular ABs until 26, and .826 since then.
Wisdom no regular ABs until 29, and an .823 this year.
Schwindel no regular ABs until 29, and a 1.002 this year.
Ortega very few ABs until age 30, and a .823 this year.
Nevin, very few ABs until age 28, and an excellent career after that.
Donaldson no regular ABs until age 27, then became a star.
Anyone ever hear of guys named Voit or Urshela?
I could probably get a lot more names, but the point is that Cordero is a cheap gamble for teams without a lot of real players. I don’t think he has a 20% chance of succeeding, but I would certainly take 10-1 odds him becoming a 2 WAR player someday.
Teams like Pitt or BA, or even KC again, would be foolish to not gamble on him. Give him a split minor/major league contract with a 6/30/22 opt-out date. You have nothing to lose.
He will be an all star in Oakland!!
Lots of Ks. Can’t get on base. Fits right in with Madrigal and Hoerner!
Am I missing something? Madrigal has career obp over .350 and average above .300. Hoerner’s on-base was over .380! Small sample size, but jeesh. Don’t think you know what you are talking about, no offense.
Another Willy Mo Pena
No. Wily mo is a poor comparison. Wily mo had numerous productive big league seasons even if he didn’t live up to the all star power hitting comparisons. Franchy never has.
I never cared for Franchy, though I still liked the trade for Windsock.
But to this day, I still have no idea what went wrong with Wily Mo. He had 51 HRs in 830 ABs with Cincy. A really bad K/W, but I thought he’d at least be a kingman type for us.
Did I miss the part of the report that included the reference to Cordero’s injury history?
Franchy would probably become a star in the KBO…
What ever happened to the Red Sox outfield prospect Castillo that signed a huge deal but was always in the minors? Can’t remember his first name. Did he ever make it to the majors?
If you mean Rusney Castillo, he did make the majors for awhile but didn’t do terribly well, played in AAA for a number of years, and is now playing in Japan.
Thank you… that’s him.
Not to be confused with Abbott Castillo.
LOL
I’d rather the Sox had DFAed Jeisson Rosario or Hudson Potts before Cordero. Franchy’s uppercut swing is so bad it’s practically a windmill. If someone could flatten him out straight to the high strike, he could hit plenty, but his present swing presents almost no chance for intersection between ball and bat. Why it works in AAA is a mystery. In any event, I hope 29 teams take a pass and Cordero is signed to a minor league contract for one more go of it, because you can’t walk away from the tools until you are abjectly hopeless. He wouldn’t be the first player rehabilitated at age 27, and the Sox still have nothing coming in the OF for years (I’m not hoping for much from Duran).
Horace – Rosario or Potts? Seriously. Look up bad journeyman in the dictionary and Cordero’s picture is there. He is a perfect example of a team taking athleticism rather than baseball skills. He lacks the fundamentals of hand/eye coordination, the patience to swing at good pitches only and the baseball acumen to be an effective player. Great athleticism is a false reason for optimism. It reminds me of when football teams would pick up track stars to be wide receivers because of their speed. In the end, they didn’t have football skills and failed. That’s Cordero in a nut shell.
Hudson Potts and Jeisson Rosario will be DFAed before the Rule 5 draft in November!! Potts was fallen from 21 to 50 on the Red Sox prospect list as he has a low OBP, has not hit consistently, and strikes out too much. Rosario has fallen from 20 to 45.
A bad K/W will likely doom Potts. Rosario was actually decent in A+ at age 19.
But Rosario is now 22 years old and his skills have stalled at AA. I don’t see Rosario being anything more than a defensive replacement late in games if he ever makes in to the MLB.
Rosario wont be cut right away. I bet he survives Rule V Draft. But, as Red Sox sign players, and need roster spots, Rosario could very likely be a casualty. Of course, slipping thru waivers is always a possibility during winter, as every team is hit with a roster crunch on their 40-Man.
His swing reminds me of Daryl Strawberry. Not the results, just the swing.
Santana also should go
Santana is not under contract for next season so he won’t chew up a 40-man roster spot once this season is over. Both Santana and Martin Perez will be gone from this team for sure. Valdez will probably be non-tendered as well.
I do believe that Robles has shown enough to be considered for a spot in the pen next year though. It’s such a shame that Bryan Mata went down with TJS this season; he was primed to make the club next season. Hopefully Connor Seabold will step up and be in the rotation next season and who knows, maybe Garrett Whitlock will get a chance to start too.
Good analysis Dorothy. Just wondering on Iglesis and Shaw. They could be non-tendered as well, freeing up 2 more spots.
Travis and Iglesias are free agents they no longer take up any spots on the 40 man unless Bloom signs them no need to non tender them.
Franchy makes Santana look like Fernando Tatis
I see Britton. I see France
Since Major League teams now are fully vested in their AAA affiliates, a organization could claim Franchy Cordero just for the sake of their AAA team, who may otherwise be lagging in attendance or wow factor. He will almost certainly be claimed. Perhaps by Pittsburgh, where he can join Chavez in Indy.
You really think Cordero is that much of a draw? Why?
Ok, how about the KBO?
There isn’t one team picking it Cordero so he can sell tickets. Not one.
RIP
Just one season away from a breakout year. Get him on the DBacks, O’s or Pirates and let him play there. Can’t be worse than most of what they currently have. At least he’ll help them get some more top draft picks.
Wily Mo Cordero.
Geez all the crying over Benny, so where do you play him if he stayed? You got a steal in Renfro and Verdugo, and Kike…. Can’t play four outfielders. And then we come to the Bloom critics. You crucified DD for trading the farm, and Bloom is tight fisted on the prospects. Was handed an awful pitching Corp last year and did quite well this year. Did anyone really think we would get past the Rays in the playoffs after a horrible second half? I didn’t, and I’ll give Bloom a few more years to pull his magic. Remember how bad this team was last year? Go Sox!
Meanwhile no one talks about how Greene almost got on base %50 of the time in AAA and swapped his speed for a little bit of power. Mets might win out on this trade depending who those minor leaguers were they gave up.
Zero players were sent from Red Sox to Mets. From Red Sox standpoint, they automatically win over Mets. Its KC that got fleeced.
dennyd – wrong again. BOS got fleeced. The new t-shirt worn by Bloom supporters all over the world!!! KC won the trade hands down.
Actually KD your WRONG it is impossible to say a team one or lost when 4 of the players received are still in the minors. If it was a 1 for 1 trade then yes you would be right but it isn’t and thus nobody with any intelligence would grade a winner or loser in that trade for years. Is it possible that none of the guys that were received turn into anything yes of course it is and when that day happens then the trade will be looked back as a loser right now it’s impossible to grade period end of story.
Bruin1012 – I disagree with your logic. Benny had 2 years left before being a free agent. Comparing the benefits received by both teams by the end of year two defines who wins the deal.
Your logic is flawed because a great year now is worth a lot more than a great year 5 years from now. I will always take an above league player in years 1 and 2 over minor league players who at best will provide value in years 3 and beyond if ever.
Think about Sale. Sale performed well immediately while Moncada struggled and the others in the deal never made a MLB contribution until Kopech made appearances in year 5. If he becomes the greatest pitcher of all time, the deal still is a win for Boston not Chicago. The Red Sox got greatness immediately and it will be year 6 or later that Chicago got any type of contribution which is at a severely discounted value.
Think about the time value of money and the significance of timing in trades. Mookie got $65M in year one. The future value of that money after 12 years is huge using a discount rate of just 7%. The $65M is worth over $130M in year 12. Likewise, a great year in year one is worth twice as much as a great year in year 5. Benny provides five above league average years before the kids can provide 1. Throw in the fact that Benny like Mookie could sign on long=term making the deal even worse for Boston.
ABSOLUTELY this deal is a disaster that will continue to get worse just like the Mookie deal. Opportunity cost is off the charts on both deals.
So, YOU ARE WRONG and now I have proven it twice. Some kid having a good season years from now is an insignificant add in 2021. Benny was a real add in 2021. Using your logic teams should draft infants of great players when they are born and trade them for stars today because the infant MIGHT some day be the greatest player of all time. Same logic.
Faulty logic.
KD are you seriously going to argue time value of money logic in baseball? That could be one of silliest things you have4 ever uttered on paper. So based on KD’s ” time value of money” logic in baseball if you make a trade and don’t see the fruits of that trade for 3-5 years you automatically lose huh I guess San Diego lost the Tatis Jr. trade. Seriously KD you are bringing in time value of money argument. in a very poor context.
Based on your theory there would be no trades of major leaguers for minor leaguers so all GM’s baseball must be idiots according to your ludicrous time value of money in baseball argument. I know you wont be able to admit you are wrong but you are WRONG once again there is no way to evaluate a trade in two years when most of those guys are still in the minors at least not from Blooms direction. The Red Sox received 5 players in the trade lets make a couple of assumptions lets say that Cordero completely busts out and never sees the Majors again as a Red Sox lets say that Winckowski busts out and never makes it but lets say that Freddy Galvis becomes a long time outfielder has 6 strong years based on the current arb system and Louis Del la Rosa becomes an solid number 3 and Gambrell becomes a high leverage reliever now the kicker is this happens in 2024 and beyond so in that scenario who won the trade?
I would argue that in baseball not only is your time value of money concept so ridiculous but that it is actually the reverse in baseball. A players value to the team is reduced the closer they get to free agency. Do to free agency a players future value for that team goes down as he gets closer to free agency he gets more and more expensive and less of an asset to the team. Its simple economics its baseball economics and it is the reason and the proof why you cant evaluate a prospect trade for years. You should quit while you are behind please don’t make your ridiculous argument anymore we all know its a fallacy.
Time value has no meaning because two teams will likely have two different time horizons. It is perfectly logical for contending teams to trade prospects because they want to win today. For teams that are rebuilding, they’ll be focusing on players with AAA or AA players. For teams that are tanking, they’re probably looking at young kids that are too young to be ranked, but might be top 150-200.
Case in point would be the Cubs. They traded Darvish and received 4 kids that were either 17, 18 or 19. Darvish might be retired before those kids become starters.
Baseball needs to find a way to outlaw and punish tanking.
Bruin1012 – Are you rewriting history on the Tatis trade? The time value of money has to do with contributions down the road not bad trades.
The Tatis trade in 2016 saw the White Sox trade for a 34 year old SP who hadn’t had an ERA+ over 100 for three years for a young shortstop slotted behind Tim Anderson who had just burst on to the scene in Chicago as a potential perennial all-star with speed, a good glove and a strong arm that finished 7th in the ROY despite only playing in 99 games. That was a terrible deal because the White Sox chose a very bad SP to deal for.
In the five years since the deal Tatis played in the minors in 2016, 2017 and 2018 so three years with no returns. During those 3 years the SDP got zero value in return and the White Sox got negative value since Shield’s ERA+ in 2016 to 2018 was 60, 82 and 93. Thus, SD won the deal using the valuation system based on performance and discounting years.
Just as an FYI, Tatis is more hype than stand out since rising to the majors in 2019. MLB influencers want him to be the replacement for Trout as the face of baseball but he can’t stay on the field. In three seasons he has played 84, 59 (out of 60) and 130 games. He only hit .300 one time in the three years, he only got MVP votes once during his lone non-injured season thanks to it being shortened significantly.
If the trade had been Sale for Tatis clearly the Sale side of the deal wins based on performance in the immediate years following the trade.
You treat baseball like a commodity market but that’s a complete misunderstanding of baseball value. All stats earned during a career define the value of a player not their potential trade value, not their potential future stats ONLY the actual stats accrued.
You’ve said incredibly stupid things before but this one may be your dumbest in a very long history of stupid comments. Pull your head out of your hind quarters and wake up ACCUMULATED STATS are the only value provided to a team by a player. Futures are BS until they are actually realized.
Those crap SPs in the minors are worthless one year after the trade for Benny but Benny’s value is real and realized by KC. If SOMEDAY those minor league players rise to the MLB level and contribute at an above league average or higher performance level those contributions will FINALLY add to the Boston side of the ledger. Until then it’s KC 1 year of above league average player stats versus negative value provided by Cordero and NO VALUE provided by the four kids in the minors. Even you can do the math on that one to establish KC as the clear winner.
Based on your thinking you must be some kind of commodities broker. Somebody who makes a living by selling on potential not actual product.
The point I’m trying to make to you is you cannot evaluate a trade when 4/5 the trade hasn’t even got to the major leagues you just can’t any argument against that is just stupid but I forgot “ your a legend in your own mind” and are incapable of believing anything but what you want to believe . You live in your own make believe world it must be nice there for you I mean how stupid are you to claim a big loss in a trade when 4/5 ths of the players traded are still in the minors. Bloom didn’t lose the trade because “ you say so” maybe in your mind but in reality let’s just see what happens and evaluate down the road.
MLB influencers want him to be the replacement for Trout as the face of baseball but he can’t stay on the field. In three seasons he has played 84, 59 (out of 60) and 130 games.
=======================================
If the knock against Tatis is that he only played in 273 games over the past three years, then what does that say about Trout, who only played 223 games.
I love Tatis, but let’s get real. He was a dice roll that Preller got lucky on. He hadn’t played a single professional game when the trade was made, and had only faced local teenage competition. I’m glad we’ve got him, but he’s still got some maturity issues, some injury issues, and some defensive issues to overcome before I call him an MVP level player.
It says Trout isn’t 22 years old anymore.
So KD here’s my analysis of the 10d trade now that I have time to look back on it.
Let me start by saying I didn’t like that Benny got traded I was firmly in the corner of he was going to rebound and let’s keep Benny and was upset when he was traded but in looking at it now I understand why he was traded.
2021 Red Sox had 4 real outfielders they had Renfroe, Kike, Verdugo and Benny. One of those guys had to become a 4th outfielder. Kike could and would play some 2nd but it turns out from a defensive position Kike was the only real centerfielder and an elite defensive one at that. So are you going to sit 10d most of the time? Verdugo and 10d are very similar except Verdugo has the better arm but Verdugo is way cheaper. Do you think Benny is happy about becoming the 4th outfielder? That’s what happens if the trade doesn’t go down. So Bloom sees a redundant asset and decides to trade that asset to help with his vision of a team that has a renewable talent line. So Benny is traded for 5 players.
KD I know you like Benny so did I but he was redundant and would not have played as much as he did on a team like the Royals. I hope that Benny gets back to be the Benny of 2018 it would be great for him but he didn’t do it in 2021 and I doubt he does it in 2022 then he is free agent and the market will tell you what kind of player he is.
You need to stop being so obtuse baseball players are a commodity. Baseball is a business I think you forget that. Free agency made sure that this is truly a business and the commodity of this business in players. Sometimes you trade a major league player for future assets and sometimes you trade future assets for a major league player but make no mistake players are commodities in the game of baseball. They are well paid commodities but commodities none the less.
This is why you can’t just declare a trade winner right away until all the commodities of the trade are evaluated and get there chance. You also have to look at a trade from an org. Standpoint we’re was Benny going to play? He is a left fielder, he can’t play right, he shouldn’t play center he was a left fielder so either he sits or Verdugo sits the bottom line from an org standpoint he was redundant.
If you want to be an armchair GM you have to look at it from all sides. You have to make tough decisions. We don’t even really know Benny’s temperament maybe he would of poured if reduced to a 4th outfielder. I have been around plenty of players that pout and are distractions if they aren’t playing the role they think they should. So the overall point no Bloom didn’t lose the trade to many variables that we don’t know about and too many Commodities that haven’t been put in play yet. It’s important to remember that two years of Benny were traded so anything he does past next year is worthless to evaluate in the trade thanks to free agency. So that is my opinion on the matter I’ll wait to evaluate what happens down the road and look at it from what I think is an intelligent point of view. I know I’ll never change your mind because I was just like you in my younger days and was always cock sure of myself a quick to judge, quick to anger, and was always right I lived in a black in white world just like you do now. I find myself slipping occasionally but it’s actually really great when most of the time you sit back and take a macro look instead of a micro look. Try it sometime.
Just pointing out the obvious that, if Tatis cannot replace Trout because he missed a lot of games, it is only fair to point out that Trout missed more games.
Past that, I am not sure why anyone would care if Tatis is replacing Trout as the face of the game. Tatis is crazy good, a lot younger, and seemingly more extroverted.
My point is that you can’t evaluate a trade and declare a winner when 4/5ths of the return on the trade haven’t made it or flunked out yet. That’s all I’m trying to say KD wants to declare Bloom a loser on this trade but you can’t not yet. That’s all I’m saying.
In my lifetime I’ve never followed a baseball player who is a perfect role model until Mookie. He is an incredible guy, very classy, great personality, always positive, does a ton for the community, and if there’s one athlete I’d want my kid to emulate it’s him. I think he should be the face of MLB.
Even if he’s not a Top Five player anymore, who cares? There’s no rule that says the face of MLB has to be the best player. I’d also be cool with Ohtani.
I always remind myself that a sports hero is NOT, and should not be a “role model” to anybody but their own children.
Bruin1012 – You always go to cheap shots when you are wrong and I react with cheap shots back. This time no cheap shots.
Player potential is not realized value. Stats are realized value. If you want to value potential over accumulated stats that’s your choice.
Investments to be conservative have an expected return of 7% annually. Thus, my $100 is worth $107 in year two. Net Present Value takes future cash streams and brings them back to the present making something comparable in the present. Baseball players are paid in money. Baseball players accumulate stats. Mookie receiving $65M in year one of a 12 year contract plus his AAV is worth over $130M more than the exact same contract for 12 years with the bonus in year 12. Likewise the value of Mookie’s stats in year 12 are worth less than half that of year 1 stats.
Four minor league players provide no value to the MLB team until they are promoted and perform above league average or are traded for a player(s) that adds above league average performance. Suggesting they have potential value is meaningless, only real value adds to the intrinsic value of the organization. When Boston gave away Mookie and Price they lowered the MLB talent level which is like losing a huge warehouse of product to sell. That lost product has yet to be replaced by Bloom. The minor league players may replace some portion of the lost product in 3 to 5 years but the value of that product being available later must be discounted by 7% per annum. And the real issues is will that product actually become available in 3 to 5 years at the discounted value? Or will it simply spoil and never be available for sale.
You can create any valuation system you want as an individual who thinks he is knowledgeable about the game but baseball is a business. You must use the principles of business to evaluate the success of a franchise. If your goal is to have the best farm system and you achieve that then you are a successful team based on your goal. Unfortunately for you, baseball measures success with World Series rings. Why are the Yankees the greatest franchise of all time? It’s not because they perennially have the best farm system, it’s because they won the most rings.
Your radical evaluation system is just that YOUR radical evaluation system. Everyone else evaluates based on rings. Minor league players don’t contribute to winning rings until they graduate and produce. You keep saying my evaluation process is wrong yet it completely aligns with the goals of baseball franchises.
You keep trying to spin this to be me saying it’s my way and yet I have never said that. Winning rings isn’t my way, it’s the way of measuring success in baseball and has been a fact for over 100 years. None of what I’m stating is “my way” it’s the established norm for franchise success evaluation. I’m sorry you don’t agree with it but that’s your issue not mine.
The best GMs in baseball are the ones that bring championships to their organization. DD is an experienced GM with an excellent track record. Bloom is a new GM with a terrible track record. Bloom may be using your evaluation system for making trades and that may be why you like him. I prefer success through rings so I prefer DD.
The passing of time will always cost something. Evaluating trades needs to account for the passage of time and results down the road must be valued at a lower rate than results today. If four players are in the minors like the Benny trade, those players can not be assumed to provide value sometime in the future. Evaluations are point in time comparisons. After one year Boston has negative returns on the trade and KC has positive returns on the trade. After year 2 another comparison can be made with facts not conjecture. The four minor league players are highly unlikely to have provided more value than the negative amount of value by Cordero and the positive value of Benny for two seasons. Therefore, in a year we can review the trade again and the result will be the same. A lopsided trade in favor of KC.
The other thing you are not considering in your trade evaluations is opportunity cost based on payroll. Benny produces an above league average set of stats at a cost of $6.6M. Renfroe produced above league average stats at half the cost of Benny in year 1. So if Bloom was actually using a model like he professed he used prior to joining Boston the value/cost ratio would be higher for Renfroe than Benny in 2021 making Renfroe a better deal than Benny but both have a value/cost ratio over 1.0.. E-Rod, Perez and so many others have the opposite value/cost ratio and therefore should be non-tendered. The opportunity cost of keeping E-Rod means not getting that same roster spot filled with someone who actually has a positive value/cost ratio.
Let’s face it. Bloom was a big talker but hasn’t delivered on this great theoretical analysis he preached as part of the recruitment process of coming to the Red Sox. Do value/cost ratios on every player on the roster and you will see that DD’s guys are still far more productive in producing value to cost than the players acquired by Bloom. I respect Renfroe and Pivetta because they delivered on what Bloom claimed he would do when he got to Boston. The rest, not so much.
Making trades that provide value beyond year 3 is fools gold. Injury, other developments in your minors, other trade opportunities for prospects and lack of performance can all make the promising prospect turn out to be a bust. Boston has had many busts to their credit over the last 10 years but they have even more positive stories of players graduating and providing value. None of those success stories have come from Bloom after two years of wheeling and dealing for prospects. His greatest addition came from ONE draft pick that happened because he allowed the talent level to drop so dramatically that 2020 earned the organization their LONE recognized star prospect. Players like Downs who came over thanks to Bloom continues to drop in value which could be the direction of the four minor league players in the Benny deal. Time will tell but for now those four players are insignificant in any success the franchise might have in 2022 or had in 2021.
FPG – Mookie not a top 5 player? I’m guessing he’ll go in the top 5 of fantasy drafts in 2022 because of his power, speed combination and his ability to hit for average, score runs and drive in runs. His clutch factor is also excellent so for me Mookie is still top 5 but clearly guys like Vlad and Ohtani have pushed their way up the ladder. If Ohtani does it in 2022 then I think he’s #1 going forward. Guys like Tatis and Acuna need to stay healthy because Harper fell from grace when he couldn’t stay healthy early in his career.
It’s hard to predict who will come and go from the top 5 and who will be a permanent member for years like Trout, Miggy and Bonds. Yelich fell from grace quickly. Trout had a long run but if he fails in 2022 he’ll fall from grace as well. Lindor was so promising and now is hardly mentioned. Others like Freeman who are incredibly consistent are never truly welcomed into the top 5 despite putting up numbers that suggest they belong there.
I think Wander Franco will be the face of baseball by 2023. He might be joined by Vlad Jr. as co faces of the game but as good as Tatis and Acuna are I believe Franco will out-perform both going forward and Vlad will become a Miggy like representative of the game. Best all around hitter in the game while Franco is the best all around player in the game.
These are really great times for baseball talent. Now if the game can figure out how to effectively regulate the ball and fairly legislate the game against cheaters with just punishments no matter how much it might cost an individual team, then the game would be at an all time high.
Dawg – In a perfect world, I agree. However there’s a whole lotta kids with absentee dads, and kids that have parents who you’d pray don’t become role models to anyone.
Reality is, kids will have a famous person they idolize. It doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t idolize their parents too.
KD – Of course everyone looks differently at who today’s Top Five are.. Some will consider past 2-5 years. Some will consider only WAR. Some will consider just 2021 performance. Some will believe the number of tools or number of positions is a huge factor. Mookie easily had his worst year since 2017 because of the injuries, that’s the only reason he got knocked down to #6.
Here’s the most popular list I’ve seen:
1) Shohei Ohtani, RHP/DH, Angels. …
2) Fernando Tatis Jr., SS, Padres. …
3) Vladimir Guerrero, Jr., 1B, Blue Jays. …
4) Ronald Acuña Jr., OF, Braves. …
5) Aaron Judge, OF, Yankees.
Paying for “potential” is always a gamble, even when it’s called an “investment.”
I don’t disagree. But there’s a lot of nuance among role model, sports hero, and idolization.
SDHotDawg
Paying for “potential” is always a gamble, even when it’s called an “investment.”
================================
Most things in life are a gamble. To me, that’s what makes life enjoyable. Gambling, whether it is a poker game or an investment, is a matter of you being able to out-think your opponent.
In my first rotisserie team, my partner and I had a choice between two well-regarded kids; either Raul Mondesi or Jeffrey Hammonds. We spent some time debating, picked Mondesi, and wound up in 2nd, for a cool $1,000, back when $1,000 was real money.
It’s a type of gambling, but enlightened. I like living in that type of world.
My point was about assigning value to something that hasn’t been realized and can’t be predicted.
Well, baseball is over for the Red Sox, so I resort to soft rants on subjects that irritate me. And one of the irritants is fans saying that prospects aren’t sure things. Which implies that veterans are sure things.
And, as we know from Houston’s $66M contract for one win from Verlander, illustrates. I wish fans would think in terms of projecting WAR from the players it received relative to the players it gave up, In Benni’s case, we gave up 2.4 bWAR/1.7 fWAR. My guess is that we will get that back and more, just on 6+ years of Winckowski.
Prospects AREN’T sure things. They are unknown quantities. Veterans ARE known quantities.
The Funny thing is KD I thinks you that resorts to cheap shots as a matter of fact just by song ” you always resort to cheap shots when you are wrong” is a cheap shot it assumes I am wrong when I don’t think I am. I think you do it so much you don’t even realize you are doing it, its a bully thing and there has never been a bully in my life that I haven’t stood up too.
Here is the real breakdown I think I’m right and you think your are right. I am clearly not going to change your mind and you aren’t going to change my mind. In retrospect we have been having disagreements since Devers came onto the sceen. When I think back to one of the first disagreements we had was Devers. I think your were more correct then I was on his defensive ability and was more correct on his offensive output. I am sure if we went back and took a look at some of the disagreements we have had we would see that is the case sometimes you are correct and sometimes I am correct. Sometimes we also agree that has happened and is going to happen when I agree with one of your responses later in this chat. For the most part we are going to have to agree to disagree.
KD I couldnt agree more on Wander Franco I think he is going to be one of the faces of baseball moving forward. I think he is a special player and easily one the top 5 players in baseball moving forward. Sometimes we do agree and this is definitely one of those times. In fact over the last year I have purchased his rookie cards as investments already making a quite a bit of money of those investments and I continue to purchase more of those cards when I see a good price an opportunity.
Another player that I think has a great chance to be the face of baseball is Adley Rutschman I believe so strongly in this guy after watching numerous minor league games I am buying this guy and his future. That’s just a heads up I think he is going to be special and seems like a quality guy as well so just keep an eye out for that guy I have already spent thousands on this guys cards and expect very heavy returns.
I do agree that the talent level in baseball has never been as good as it is now so if we can just get another labor agreement in place and avoid a lockout the sky is truly the limit here. There are quite a few other young players I am very bullish on but not enough time to go over that.
Bruin1012 – I enjoy disagreeing and agreeing with you on different topics. What I don’t appreciate and it usually results in me insulting you in return is lines like this one you wrote above.
Bruin1012 – 1 day ago
The point I’m trying to make to you is you cannot evaluate a trade when 4/5 the trade hasn’t even got to the major leagues you just can’t any argument against that is just stupid but I forgot “ your a legend in your own mind” and are incapable of believing anything but what you want to believe .
I’m fine with the opinion that my opinion is stupid what creates an aggressive response is the rest of the comment. It’s unnecessary and inflammatory.
Bruin1012 – Adley is another top notch prospect that will help me in my keeper league for years to come just like Wander Franco. I respect your opinion on prospects so if you have the time please provide any feedback you choose on my twenty minor league prospects.
C – J. Bart
C – A. Rutschman
C – H Davis
2B/OF – N. Madrigal
SS – W. Franco
SS – B. Witt
SS – M. Mayer
OF – A. Kirilloff
OF/1B – A. Vaughn
OF – J. Sanchez
OF – Y. Cespedes
SP – C. Mize
SP – T. Houck
SP – J. Urquidy
SP – Z. Thompson
SP – L. Gil
SP – H. Greene
SP – M. Gore
SP – M. Liberatore
SP – J. Leiter
Thanks.
Dawg – I think paying for past performance is also a gamble. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
@Fever …
I agree totally on that point. But I wasn’t necessarily talking about ageing stars on the downhill slide (Pujols). But good veterans, say 26-30 years old.
KD
I can give you my opinion on who I have seen play and to be honest I don’t play fantasy so I can only comment on the players as I see viable and making it to the big leagues and contributing.
Your Catchers I will not Comment on H. Davis because I haven’t seen him play at all. I have seen Joey Bart there is quite bit of swing and miss in his game and that is somewhat of red flag but when he makes contact he makes very loud contact he also plays catcher and the offensive floor for a catcher is very low especially one as good defensively as Bart he is a long time keeper in my opinion. You already know what I think of Adley he is a true superstar with all the intangibles. After watching him play he has a better idea of the strike zone then the umpires and I think he will be one of those rare players that will benefit from better umpiring in the big leagues. I believe he is the next face of baseball a true difference maker. He is a of course a keeper.
Your Shortstops I will not comment on Marcelo Mayer because I haven’t seen him play but I will be watching his Greenville games next year. I am actually investing in Bobby Witt’s cards I have seen him play and I think there will be an adjustment period for him in the big leagues but overall he is going to be an excellent player at SS with potential elite power but also some swing in miss in his game. That is really all I worry a little bit about just from watching him.
I honestly don’t have an opinion on your outfielder’s/fist base players at all since none of those guys are in the AL East and time is limited so no opinion there.
Your Pitchers I never invest in pitchers due to the tommy john thing waiting to happen. I will comment on the following
C. Mize I think he fronts the next really good Tigers team. He has multiple pitches commands the strike zone excellent mound presence I am very high on him.
T. Houck I really like Tanner but he needs to develop that third pitch he has good stuff but my opinion in the long run he will be a reliever if he cant develop that third pitch.
I don’t really have an opinion on the other pitchers except J. Leiter since I have seen him pitch barring the injury thing I think he is going to be an excellent pitcher he has an above average mix of pitches and a lot of moxie to go along with as well as the pedigree he is a keeper.
I will leave with you this a player you should look to add is Julio Rodriguez he is a player I am investing heavily in but I also think he will be a good player for fantasy purposes I am not sure anyone that I have watched in the minors hits it harder then that guy I think he is going to be a superstar.
Good Luck with the fantasy stuff
Bruin1012 – Thanks for your feedback. I was one selection too late this past year to get Julio Rodriguez. I have one competitor in the league that follows minor league players closely too and he beat me to the punch on Rodriguez. He also beat me to the punch on Acuna, Tatis and Bellinger! In a draft you have to play for that year with an eye on the future and he has surprised me several times with premature selections but as it turned out they were worth the early round pick. Evaluating the upside of minor league players is critical in my league so I spend a great deal of time trying to stay ahead of my competition. That’s why you see a young player like Cespedes on my team. Much younger than I prefer to pick them but high enough upside to pull the trigger early.
I review hundreds of prospect performances year by year to find the cream of crop each off season. Casas has already been taken after that Yorke is now on my radar as a potential prospect to select in the March draft. The four pitchers in the Benny deal aren’t on my radar nor the radar of some of the best evaluators in baseball. That’s why it’s far too early to think they will impact the MLB team’s performance in the next year or two. I will praise them if they do something worth praising but as of now for me they are too far away from being an impact to even evaluate. Yorke who is a Bloom guy and young, however, has qualified for evaluation and that’s a real positive for the Red Sox. Duran’s growth was stunted by the way Cora used him and I hope he can recover from the misuse. He needs a full year at AAA where he hits at least .280 before he should be brought up again or the Red Sox will have wasted another talented player like Chavis and Benny.
Thanks again for the feedback!
KC if Grayson Rodriguez hasn’t been taken I would look at getting him if you want a great pitching prospect. He has great stuff and control a true number 1 potential combined with an excellent defensive catcher in Adley I would look to draft him. Baltimore is going to be a lot better next year then people realize.
Bruin1012 – Think about what Bloom has done since he arrived in Boston.
Right Field – massive drop-off losing an elite player like Mookie
Center Field – Got rid of JBJ which was good since he was grossly overpaid in Bloom’s first season. Replace him with a 2B that worked out as a CF but creates a future problem for the development of a much cheaper resource in Duran.
Left Field – Got rid of Benny for Cordero. Yes, with the move of Hernandez to the outfield Verdugo ended up in left field instead of right field but the team went from Mookie and Benny in the corner outfield positions to Verdugo and Renfroe. Massive down grade.
3B – Bloom did nothing to fix his biggest problem of Devers playing the field. That’s on Bloom.
SS – Stuck with Bogaerts and it’s paid off.
2B – Kiki should be playing there and Arroyo should be a bench jockey but Cora wants to play his guys even if they aren’t best for the team.
1B – Finally they get the big stud 1B that could star for 10 years or more and they want to move him or bench him despite starting his career better than the highly reveered Devers? Completely illogical and if they don’t play him in 2022 at 1B they are fools.
C – Picked up Plawecki at a good price to go with Vazquez. Good move.
DH – Kept JD but Cora batted him too low in the order. Now it’s time to permanently put Devers there and trade JD.
Back to the Benny deal. Yes many more years could slightly contribute to the benefits gained on both sides of the deal. I consider Mookie’s next decade as part of the win LAD got through the trade and likewise would count Benny’s years if he gets extended in KC as results generated by the trade. So yes, the four minor league players may eventually make the majors to give Boston potential down the road benefit but so could Benny because without the deal KC would not be gaining Benny’s skills in the future. They would have been in Boston if a smart GM was still running the Red Sox.
I acknowledge the debits and credits in the Benny trade may change over time but to suggest that prospects WILL surpass Benny’s contributions to KC is silly. It’s a long, long shot at best and again it may be an even worse deal if Benny signs an extension with KC.
I expect Benny to have an excellent 2022 if he stays healthy. He has made his adjustments getting back to the old Benny and the old Benny was a 115 to 125 OPS+ player who during off seasons would fall to 100. Those numbers are better than Hunter Renfroe, Kiki Hernandez, Frenchy Cordero and may out perform Schwarber’s numbers going forward. The 2021 Scwarber was definitely better but the 2016, 2017 and 2020 Schwarber was not as good as a normal Benny year. The 2018 and 2019 Schwarber was comparable to the 2016 and 2018 Benny.
It will be fun to see if Benny can sustain his comeback in 2022 and whether hot acquisitions like Schwarber and Hernandez will go the route of Pearce in year 2 playing for Boston.
KD
I hear your argument but it just seems like your upset with ownership to me mostly.
I wont ever be convinced by anyone that trading Mookie was not an ownership decision. IMO there is no way that your new GM came in wanting to trade Mookie that is not the first thing a new GM wants to do trade your most iconic homegrown player in decades. No one including you is ever going to convince me of that. You can be upset at the return that Bloom got when he was forced to trading the iconic player once again if I know that ownership wanted to trade him then certainly the Dodgers and other teams knew this as well. IMO Bloom did fine on the return especially when he was put in the position of trading Mookie.
The problem I see with your the talent is lower then when DD left well that is a problem with ownership. Its obvious that ownership and this is my opinion wanted to reduce payroll and Bloom was not given the leeway that DD was to sing high end expensive free agents. It will be interesting to see if Bloom is given the leeway to spend this offseason. If he is and he spends and gets the wrong guys then that will be on Bloom but if he is restrained again by ownership and is unable to go after the high end free agents and is forced to find bargains like Kiki, Renfroe, Arroyo etc. If you really look at it Bloom didn’t have much free agent money to work with last offseason. I think he did a pretty good job with the limited funds that he seemed to have last offseason.
The Benintendi trade is something else entirely that was on Bloom and initially I too was upset but then I sat back and thought about it for awhile. It was obvious to me that Benintendi was a redundent player. Verdugo and him are very similar players. 10d is a left fielder and as it turns out so is Verdugo. They are very similar players not superstars but good players so one of those guys was going to be the 4th outfielder either 10d or Verdugo. I think Bloom knew that neither wanted to be a 4th outfielder and he went with the younger and IMO the better defensive outfielder with a better arm. Now I don’t know how the trade will ultimately shake out but I can see why one of those guys were traded. Verdugo is younger and had more team control so that is a reason to keep him instead of 10d. You can make the argument that Verdugo was the more valuable asset and would of brought back more in a trade but we are splitting hairs now. When I looked at the trade this way then it makes sense to me however I do understand why people are upset about the 10d trade. It is also possible that they figured 10d would be upset and a distraction if he was relegated to 4th outfielder and that is why he was traded that is something we will never know.
I will be shocked if Kike goes the route of Pearce for many reasons. He was simply outstanding for the last 3.5 plus months of the season. He is a hitter that seems to be perfect for Fenway a dead pull hitter but he also has the bat speed to hit the ball out in front of the plate something every pull hitter has to do and why I believe Chavis will never be a good hitter in the big leagues. The last reason is the former big leaguers like Chase Utley who believes that this is the real Kike the one we saw in the last 3.5 months of the season. There are some players that need to play consistently and he just may be one of them. He just didn’t get to play that much with the Dodgers but I will be watching him closely next year it will be a big year for him and he will get the chance to prove that 2021 was no fluke so that should be interesting.
In synopsis I think Bloom has done a solid job with the resources he was provided with to build this team. I am excited to see if Ownership is willing to spend this offseason and if they do what Bloom brings in. I have already said that I think Rasaiel Iglesias shold be the top target and that would shore up the bullpen as well as help the starting rotation freeing up Whitlock and Houck to be in the rotation. Lets see what happens this offseason if Bloom is allowed to increase payroll or if ownership keeps being stingy.
Denny Agreed!
I do not understand why the Royals wanted two year of Beni at $6.3 and $9+ million for all the prospects. I see that they got something for Cordero, but they were never going to compete last year anyway.
IMO Winckowski looks like he could end up as a back end of the rotation pitcher which has loads of value at very little acquisitions cost.
It was an odd kind of trade for KC. I assume they were hoping for a reversion back to 2017-18 for Benni, and then flipping him. It wasn’t just Winckowski they gave up either. They also gave up Lee. He’s a strikeout machine, but improved a bit this year in AAA. He still has the ability to be a low-end starting outfielder.
Can’t believe the rest of MLB passed on this future all-star who has been given lots of opportunities to prove it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After reading that Cordero agreed to a new deal before passing through waivers it is no surprise that no one claimed his as no one was meant to. Franchy will come to spring training and ultimately be passed through waivers again when he doesn’t make the opening day roster
Bloom did this last year as well for one or two guys. It is the equivalent of creating a 41st roster out of a 4o-man roster by paying an extra $825k. The good news is that you add another guy. The bad news is that, even at $825k, it still counts against our payroll cap.
Joe – Only the prorated portion of the $825K counts against the luxury tax, based on how much time he spends in the majors.. That’s how I understand these “split” contracts anyway.
Thanks. “..” also mentioned this. Virtually no downside to it
FTR … I mentioned it 29 minutes before him. LOL
Rusney Castillo 2.0
KD
I can give you my opinion on who I have seen play and to be honest I don’t play fantasy so I can only comment on the players as I see viable and making it to the big leagues and contributing.
Your Catchers I will not Comment on H. Davis because I haven’t seen him play at all. I have seen Joey Bart there is quite bit of swing and miss in his game and that is somewhat of red flag but when he makes contact he makes very loud contact he also plays catcher and the offensive floor for a catcher is very low especially one as good defensively as Bart he is a long time keeper in my opinion. You already know what I think of Adley he is a true superstar with all the intangibles. After watching him play he has a better idea of the strike zone then the umpires and I think he will be one of those rare players that will benefit from better umpiring in the big leagues. I believe he is the next face of baseball a true difference maker. He is a of course a keeper.
Your Shortstops I will not comment on Marcelo Mayer because I haven’t seen him play but I will be watching his Greenville games next year. I am actually investing in Bobby Witt’s cards I have seen him play and I think there will be an adjustment period for him in the big leagues but overall he is going to be an excellent player at SS with potential elite power but also some swing in miss in his game. That is really all I worry a little bit about just from watching him.
I honestly don’t have an opinion on your outfielder’s/fist base players at all since none of those guys are in the AL East and time is limited so no opinion there.
Your Pitchers I never invest in pitchers due to the tommy john thing waiting to happen. I will comment on the following
C. Mize I think he fronts the next really good Tigers team. He has multiple pitches commands the strike zone excellent mound presence I am very high on him.
T. Houck I really like Tanner but he needs to develop that third pitch he has good stuff but my opinion in the long run he will be a reliever if he cant develop that third pitch.
I don’t really have an opinion on the other pitchers except J. Leiter since I have seen him pitch barring the injury thing I think he is going to be an excellent pitcher he has an above average mix of pitches and a lot of moxie to go along with as well as the pedigree he is a keeper.
I will leave with you this a player you should look to add is Julio Rodriguez he is a player I am investing heavily in but I also think he will be a good player for fantasy purposes I am not sure anyone that I have watched in the minors hits it harder then that guy I think he is going to be a superstar.
Good Luck with the fantasy stuff