Nov. 23, 10:08 pm: Matz has at least one two-year offer in hand, reports Jon Morosi of MLB.com (on Twitter).
Nov. 23, 10:01 am: Matz is weighing offers from each of the Giants, Red Sox, Blue Jays, Tigers, Cubs, Cardinals, Angels and Mets, Heyman tweets. The Giants’ offer remains on the table even after re-signing DeSclafani.
Nov. 22: The free agent starting pitching market has moved very quickly over the offseason’s first few weeks, and it seems another domino could soon fall. Southpaw Steven Matz is likely to pick his destination before Thanksgiving, reports Joel Sherman of the New York Post (Twitter link).
Interest in Matz has been robust, with the Red Sox, incumbent Blue Jays, Mets, Dodgers, Cardinals and Angels among teams already rumored to have interest. Jon Heyman of the MLB Network adds the Tigers, Cubs and Giants to that mix. The Mets have put forth a formal offer, although they’re joined in that regard by seven other clubs, according to Anthony DiComo of MLB.com (on Twitter).
Matz is coming off a nice season in Toronto, rebounding from an awful 2020 campaign to toss 150 2/3 innings of 3.82 ERA ball. The 30-year-old didn’t miss too many bats, but he only walked 6.6% of opponents and induced grounders at a solid 45.5% clip. Matz’s 4.12 SIERA wasn’t quite as impressive as his ERA, but both his actual run prevention and peripherals have typically hovered right around 4.00.
That’s valuable mid-rotation production, although Matz has previously had some issues with the long ball. Home runs weren’t an issue in 2021, but he served up an astonishing 14 round-trippers in just 30 2/3 frames with the Mets in 2020. That showing seemingly marked for an ugly end to a generally solid tenure in Queens, but the New York front office apparently has interest in bringing him back into the fold after his bounceback showing this year.
Each of the Tigers, Cubs and Giants entered the offseason known to be targeting rotation help. The Cubs claimed Wade Miley off waivers from the division-rival Reds. Detroit has already signed Eduardo Rodríguez, while San Francisco has reunited with Anthony DeSclafani and are seemingly on the verge of a deal with Alex Wood. None of that trio has as marked a rotation need as they did just two weeks ago, but there’s enough uncertainty on all three clubs’ staffs that they can and probably will make another rotation addition of some sort this winter.
The Jays considered making Matz an $18.4MM qualifying offer but ultimately decided against it. Toronto won’t receive a compensatory pick if he were to sign elsewhere, then, while adding Matz wouldn’t cost another team a draft pick.
I’d gladly take him as the #5 arm in Toronto.
I think that’s what he is, a number 5 arm. The pandemic shortened season wreaked so much havock on pitchers #5 starter Steven Matz is receiving interest from almost 14 teams and there talking like a lock out is looming. If a lockout does happen it better not shorten the season for the games sake, there won’t be enough healthy pitching for a competitive 2023 season at this rate.
He was really good at times this year but had a couple games where he just couldn’t get an out. Before strips got into injury issues there was legit thought that he might get bumped from the rotation so buyer beware on Matz for sure.
He’s very inconsistent for his career but I see Boston inking him to replace ERod. I’m not saying I want him but it just makes sense given Boston needs a starter and him being from Long Island, just a few hundred miles away.
I think Toronto caught lightning in a bottle. They obviously have a great pitching coach but I wouldn’t take the same bet a second time in 2022. As a Toronto fan I hope he goes elsewhere unless Jays can get him at a bargain.
I actually agree but don’t see how the Sox will get their staff in order without him and Iglesias.
Dewey – For me, he’s out of Bloom’s price range much like Iglesias. I totally agree that Iglesias would be an outstanding add but I don’t trust a trigger will be pulled when a player that costs that much money.
I keep lobbying for Kim since he’s in Bloom’s price range, a left handed starter who put up numbers much better than E-Rods best year.
Time will tell as to the spending cap that Bloom is working with. Since he appears to be a puppet GM, I think ownership will make the call on expensive guys like Matz and Iglesias.
I keep hoping that voicing fan dissatisfaction with ownership will get them to change back to their old ways and compete with the Yankees for free agents. Maybe, without DD, they know they’ll lose to Cashman whereas DD dominated him in the free agent market.
I buevr the time will spend again but do it recklessly. With a budget, forecast and plan in place, if it works, they’ll do it. Without a true closer, they’ll need in my view both Houck and Whitlock in the pen which in today’s game is as or more important than having a five inning starter. Us Soxx fans expect both to continue last year’s success. Hopefully that will happen. Finally, I expect a starter to be signed now and am hoping Iglesias remains available after the new CBA is announced. He’s the one guy along with Scherzer whose value goes up if the new CBA opens up things. I want Scherzer and Iglesias (and not Matz) but such is not reality. Maybe we’ll be surprised. One thing is clear, they have the money to spend if they choose to do so.
I believe the team will spend again but do it recklessly. With a budget, forecast and plan in place, if it works, they’ll do it. Without a true closer, they’ll need in my view both Houck and Whitlock in the pen which in today’s game is as or more important than having a five inning starter. Us Soxx fans expect both to continue last year’s success. Hopefully that will happen. Finally, I expect a starter to be signed now and am hoping Iglesias remains available after the new CBA is announced. He’s the one guy along with Scherzer whose value goes up if the new CBA opens up things. I want Scherzer and Iglesias (and not Matz) but such is not reality. Maybe we’ll be surprised. One thing is clear, they have the money to spend if they choose to do so.
I even tried to correct it and failed…meant and not do it recklessly
I also see Bloom with him as the main Sox target. Rest of the major FA starters really scare me and hope they avoid if he signs elsewhere. Would rather him go with a Rich Hill type, knowing won’t pitch more than 100 innings and be cheap than overpay for, say a Gausman who will get rocked in the AL East (again) and cost big money.
Interesting the other poster above regarding Matz being unable to get out of early innings multiple games. People forget that describes Eduardo Rodriquez also, who was awful in maybe half dozen + starts. His illness is the easy blame, but have to wonder. velocity was never back.
@dewey
No soup for you!
Problem is someone is going to pay him more than a #5.
Right cause of all the injuries to pitching, pitching is at even more of a premium than before, but unless he’s pitching in front of elite defense I can’t see him repeating what he did for Toronto. Even then I think someone is going to wind up paying way to much for his services
Correct Motor Wings. Pitching is so scarce, even someone like Matz, who has had his share of injuries in addition to bad seasons, is gonna get paid big bucks. Three years and $30 million? I think most pitchers (people, i.e.) could find a way to squeak by on ten million a year!
Everyone keeps calling him a #5. Seriously, take a glance at Baseball Reference or Fangraphs an check out each team’s #5. Most of them are horrific. As maddeningly inconsistent as Matz is, he’s clearly better than a #5, most of which are essentially replacement level if you’re lucky.
Keep in mind that most of those pitchers currently listed as #5 starters will no longer be in their respective projected rotations once the offseason is over.
Still, I agree that Matz is at least a #4 starter for the majority of teams.
Yes, but if I was the Jays, I would re-sign Ray and give Max Scherzer a 3 year deal with a club option or a pillow 2 year deal with a vested option for a 3rd. The the Jays can handle the position gap through a trade ! Ketel Marte could make some sense as he pop plays 2B/CF/SS. Baez could also be a perfect fit if they want to spend an extra $100 M over 5 yrs and save the prospects. Ryu’s and Grichuks contract is coming of the books anyways and Scherzer’s likely too after those 2. Anyhow:
1.Scherzer
2.Ray
3.Berrios
4.Ryu
5.Manoah
6.Matz
That’ll be a great rotation
I appreciate your optimism, but as a fellow Jays fan that, all of that is 10000% not happening.
I don’t see why not ? Forget Matz. They can re-sign Ray and given Scherzer’s age, I don’t see why not ! It’ll probably take a 3 year deal the most to sign him.
Maybe I’ll throw in a club/player vesting option to sweeten thing up for Max with an opt out after the 2nd year.
@slimmycito Not enough zeroes lol
I don’t see why a team wouldn’t add arguably the 2 best SP on the market???? Please cite the example of the two best SP on market signing with Toronto ever let alone another team. You live so far out of reality if you think it’s even a remote possibility.
Sure, it will only take 3 years at most to sign Scherzer, but it will also cost nearly $30M a year if not more.
wayto much money for Scherzer couldn’t take the dodgers the
Ws which I’m greatful for
Do they print money differently in Canada?
Yeah, probably. It’s got different colors.
So many Loonies being tossed around.
You sure like to spend others money foolishly
A 3 year pillow contract? Taking him into his 40s to build up value?
It’s a great rotation. It would be even better if you added Nolan Ryan, Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson. On what planet is Scherzer going to Toronto? The chances of Ray returning to Toronto are less than 50/50. If you lose Ray and Matz it’s a very different rotation– and Matz is better than a 5.
I’d love to see him come back home to Long Island!
No way he wants to goes back to NY Mets. Everyone is running as far as possible.
No way he wants to go back home ?
Not according to Tom Wolfe.
That’s WHAT YOU THINK …
Mets will go 5/100.
No team is giving him that kind of money. His deal should be around ERod money. Would rather have ERod and his playoff experience but his contract had the draft pick tied to it so I’m guessing similar money.
Except Erod is way better when you look at the peripheral stats. But you might be right on the salaries being closer than they should be statistically.
Matz has started in the World Series
Yeah and they threw Matt Harvey out there the next game too, what’s your point?
Matz is looking at 3/30. Nowhere near ERod. He’s 2 years older and is worse in just about every statistical category.
wayto much money for Scherzer couldn’t take the dodgers the
Ws which I’m greatful for
And you know this . . . how?
2 FA signing elsewhere is hardly an indication of anyone running away from the Mets.
Every player’s agent advises to take the highest bid because they make more money!
As far as Syndergaard goes, he saw 3 million more than his agent ever expected for a 1 year deal. He threw about 50 pitches the past 2 years and received a RAISE. Teams continually bank on the past repeating itself when players are 3 years older after major surgeries.
The Mets have now invested two years each of rehab for TWO pitchers (Wheeler) who then signed elsewhere after the team took care of them. That’s 2 years where both pitchers were counted on to be on the mound at the top of the rotation and weren’t. Two years of the team rehabbing them, waiting for them to contribute. Two years of guaranteed contract money. Two years of hoping yo get them back on the field to assess their recovery. Two years. (You could add Cespedes to this scenario, too.)
I’m sorry, but that stings and if I’m in that front office, I’d never want to see either pitcher taking team money in my uniform again. It’s not like the Mets didn’t post the very generous QO in both cases. In a proper world, both pitchers would have accepted simply to give back to the team. But the simple truth is, it only takes one pitch to end a career.
As far as players “bolting”, nearly every single player tests the free agent market the first chance he gets, seeking that one huge contract of a lifetime. This is especially true of players who have just experienced long stretches of lost playing time (Conforto, Syndergaard) due to injuries. They know more than other players that this opportunity of a lifetime is NOW because another year lost due to injuries could cost them 10’s of millions in guaranteed money.
This is the agent’s job. It’s all about the $$$.
wayto much money for Scherzer couldn’t take the dodgers the
Ws which I’m greatful for but Borass started this loony behavior.
We all know that there is dysfunction in the Mets front office. And they are unlikely to be a top contender in 2022. But some players love the city and others hate it. If the money is there, the Mets will find interested free agents.
Yeah Alex Dickerson was just DFA earlier…
No one is running away from NY for one year. The dysfunction seems to be nothing in that they really want Stearns who is not available yet. it will start next year should he remain in beer land.
I believe they just signed Eppler to a four-year deal. It’s highly unlikely they’d dump him after one season, unless he commits a crime, because Stearns became available.
Oh, for sure, @dewey.
If the offer is the largest guys’ll sign there. Bet. & if you’re in your twenties & a single dude with millions of bucks, they’ll figure out how to enjoy it.
At this point in my life, I only go back home for funerals & cannot wait to leave. But 25 years ago, I would have had a much different take.
But: $$$$ is going to be the key.
Nothing new with that though.
In your 20s with $$$? Nothing better than the NYC area in the summer be it LI or NJ shores, the City nightlife or Westchester/Fairfield County suburban life. Some places light be equal but not better.
@dewey You just described me except I only had $. As a born Manhattanite, I wouldn’t trade my experiences for anything. Some of my best summers in the Hamptons/Montauk. A few of my close friends with families now are in Westchester.
I wonder how Toronto feels about Springer? Angels and Rendon? It’s just not often that a player who signs a massive free agent contract over his drafted team’s offer, has immediate success. It’s almost karma. Lol
Toronto feels pretty good about Springer, I guarantee that.. was he hurt for 100 games? Yes. Injury concern for sure. But when he played he was still the Springer of before. Absolutely awesome.
Rendon not the same situation. He looked terrible when he did play. Also, contract much worse. Almost 100mill worse!!
Springer will be just fine. He has never looked bad when he’s on the field.
Having someone miss 90 games and ~1/2 a season of abs, in what should be their most productive year of the contract, has to sting. He was still productive in that time for sure, but you aren’t paying him that kind of money to play for half a year. Any value lost on the front end of the contract put more pressure on the back end
And it hurts that one less game on the IL from Springer could’ve put the Jays in the playoffs. And it’s not just the games he missed, it’s all the games where he had to DH.
Rendon looked terrible because he was playing hurt with a hip that required surgery. Come on guy– Rendon is an elite talent in every respect.
Rendon was good in 2020. This past year he had nagging injuries that were the result of a hip injury. Springer didn’t exactly stay injury free his 1st year with the Jay’s
No way he go goes back to NY. if he wants his career to continue on a decent plane like in Toronto he has to stay far away from NY
Curious what makes you say that.
Last year Matz had a 3.82 erai in 2016 he had a 3.40 era. Wasn’t he in NY in 2016,
Matz goes to the Angels with Stroman for a clean sweep of Met talent.
Yeah, but Mets have big cheese to spend, and someone has to fill out their rotation. So, why not Matz?
Not even remotely true. Who is “running”? The Mets are the only team to ever have a free agent sign somewhere else? Ridiculous.
Matz will sign with a team that needs pitching, like the yankees, or red sox, blue jays, phillies, cubs, rangers, giants, cubs, angels, dodgers, padres, tigers,….
I wouldn’t mind Matz on Yankees but why wouldn’t Matz go back to Mets after losing Thor.
I don’t think anyone really wants to play there? Just an assumption?
Nah I thought he was going to sign with a team with 6 starters already and be fine playing as AAA depth for 12 million a year
I’m a Phillies fan, and there’s no better place to play when you’re doing well and your team is winning than along the Northeast corridor.
I like him too, @mlbnyyfan.
A solid, durable, mid rotation starter is about the only thing our entire pitching staff needs. No more patching up on the fly like Cash tried to do with Heaney if we get caught short handed.
We need to put the vast majority of our resources into the lineup & bench. But some rotation stability would be a really nice luxury to have.
Who would want to go to the Mets? They’re a train wreck.
The Knicks were a NY train wreck for years but the Mets it seems have their new owner who wants Stearns. If he chooses next year to not come to NY, then the discussion is deserved.
The reason any player goes anywhere is M-O-N-E-Y. Please stop with the naive comments.
The same reason why ERod likely left in that he looked better for the dollars to someone else who looked at his upside whereas his past team remembers the good, the bad and the ugly.
The issue in NY was that his father was his coach. Honestly, he was terrible. It just took other teams two years to figure out that he could only throw one pitch consistently for strikes. After they did, they just sat on his fastball and lit him up. He never altered that fact. I think a second year in the AL East will show the same trend.
His fastball is straight, his breaking stuff hangs and his change is rarely a strike.
Maybe his success in 2021 can be attributed to his father not traveling? Maybe the Toronto pitching coaches were better than the 2019 and 2020 Mets’? Maybe he matured into realizing he needed to adapt?
In any case, this is a big year in Matz’ career. He’ll get a nice 3 year deal which gives him time to cash in again if he continues to develop.
Continues to develop? It’s his age 31 season. He is what he is.
@citizen what a wild take
Wow a player will sign with a team who needs that position that player plays? No way!!!
I’ve heard the Fuban Guardians and Gastonia Honey Hunters are also in the mix.
That barely narrows it down. In any case, the signing team (the Cardinals) turned out to be one not on your list.
4 years 56 mil my guess
King:
My guess is less than that, perhaps two or three years at 12-13 million per year.
If that’s the case jays def should have given him a QO
3/33 is more like it. I’m sure the Cards won’t pay more than that. And, yes, Cards fans, I’d take him. socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2021/11/cardinals-free…
Any pitcher would love to pitch in St. Louis. Great defense, and a park that’s more favorable to pitchers than hitters. Plus the fans show up every night.
Because there isn’t anything else to do in misery. Missouri, I meant Missouri.
You mean besides Gateway Arch National Park, one of the best zoos in the country (and with free admission, to boot), the largest outdoor theater in the country, the Science Center (also with free admission), Six Flags St. Louis, the Bowling Hall of Fame, St. Louis Blues games, an incoming Major League Soccer team, the Cardinals’ own Ballpark Village development, etc.?
It’s only called “misery” due to the summer humidity.
You got the team and average annual salary right, but It turns out the Cardinals were wiling to give 4/44.
I wouldn’t go longer than three years on Matz with his injury history, but your annual dollar amount seems to be spot on.
Oh that’s cool. Cash is saving Hal money by not being in on this FA either. Hm, maybe he’s just seeing “if this market will tank” too.
And to think Farhan now has Wood!
@ Yankee Clipper;
You Yankee fans are getting much better on here. I’ve read some great dialogs between the fans the past week or two.
1, It’s just the beginning of the FA signings. That and trades will come. Suggest you all don’t jump to conclusions. What matters is how the the total moves fit, not just one or two.
2. The Yankees need to get younger. I believe that Hal and Cashman have figured that out. It’ll be interesting to see how they get there.
@Clip
“Getting much better.”
Like we care what this dude says. Lord.
Anyway: I think a pitcher like Matz would be an excellent finishing touch to our entire staff. Bullpen already follows that 6+ deep template that the A’s & Ray’s have been using pretty successfully since ’19. So that’s done. Cash loves his relievers so I could see a lesser add there but it is far from a requirement & probably would fall under: Just Because.
& our staff is really similar to what Bloom put together for the ’21 sox: 4 or 5 guys that can all keep you in the game every night.
Redundancy – which is certainly a Brian Cashman roster building trait – would be accomplished with signing a pitcher like Matz. I wouldn’t read too much into the Yanks *not* being mentioned. Cash likes to be stealthy.
Sure……
Look at the Yankee roster lately? See one Yankee position player on there that has any upside? How about the pitching staff? Montgomery, maybe Cortes and a few relievers is it. Any guys ready from the minors other than Florial?
Compare that to the Rays, Red Sox, and Jays. They all have young players with experience that have a shot at much higher ceilings. They have guys coming up from AAA.
Know why the Yankees have to take on garbage like Odor and move Gleyber out of position? Because they gave out long-term contracts to guys like Stanton, Britton and others that aren’t getting better but are eating up the payroll. And what do you guys want to do? Hand out more contracts like that.
Hal and Cashman don’t report to me, and I don’t pretend to read their minds. They’ll do what they do. But if they don’t realize that what they have has not only unsustainable, but has hit a wall……..
& despite all that they won 90+ games.
I can play the “nitpick any roster” game too, sam. Any fool can. Until we have a team with 13 Mike Trouts it’s the easiest thing to do.
& I won’t keep trying to explain modern analytics, strategies, & finances to you. It is a complete waste of time.
“Defensive metrics are bogus. I can’t even figure out how they are calculated.” That is a direct quote from you. Hey, at least it was honest. But you are just so lost when it comes to all of your analysis. About all it’s good for is a laugh, serious.
I’ve tried. So have others. Multiple times. You can’t figure it out – obviously. So you just crank out a series of rather unintelligent HOTTAKES & think you make sense.
Didn’t I see some article about the Royals? Maybe you should go there. Nobody will probably call you on your BS on that thread. But you won’t see any of us there ripping on your team. Because: they are irrelevant.
As usual: I hope you find this helpful, dude.
Matz is an underrated get for a team like the Yankees, imho, Ducky. Plus, I had to figure a natural way to point out Farhan now has Wood, again –
But, as you’ve pointed out before it is typically the no-mentions that the Yankees swoop in on. This offseason is young and Cash generally does a good job of letting the market take shape. The possible comments about waiting to see if the SS market tanks are frightening though.
Samuel: It is so nice of you to just cross over the tracks and come in over to our side and tell us what a good job we are doing, sir. I’m glad you find our recent discussions superlative, because, after all, you’re the reason we are all on here…… just for you, Samuel.
@Ducky “Getting much better” hahaha…. Please just go away, Samuel.
This thought is about 70 percent due to the fact the the Yankees and Pirates make a trade every year but I wouldn’t be surprised if Chad Kuhl ends up as a Yankee. Yanks don’t necessarily need another starter and the back end of the bullpen is fine. Kuhl fits their roster because he is the type of guy that can start if needed but is probably better off as a middle/mutli-inning reliever which the Yankees could see value in. It’s a bit of a stretch and certainly not Plan A or B or C. But if Cashman goes big on other needs in free agency I could see it happening.
Did anyone think Matz would help their favorite team after the 2020 season? Someone needs to look at that Blue Jays coaching staff and give them some credit. Matz and Ray were both busting until they got there. That bullpen kept having success no matter who was closing.
So funny.
I have been posting back & forth with a number of our guys on here since….2015?, ’14? at the old River Ave Blues. Those fellas have always been savvy, nuanced, & well-spoken. We haven’t changed in all those years. Certainly not recently. What a funny little dude. What a funny thing to post.
The term “ingratiating” comes to mind.
Bullpen was a disgrace for most of the season
Farhan has Wood whenever he makes a shrude transaction.
Please not back with the Mets
Angels?…Syndergaard – Loup – Matz.
It seems Perry has a knack for former Mets.
Or for former Blue Jays?
Had to think for a second, but, yes, both Loup and Thor were Blue Jays’ draft picks.
Loup had a few disconcerting years on the bump with Jayz
Matz is going to get at least 3 yrs/$30M.
Oh god no! Please!
You guys need him for sure. I don’t get the “no!”
@von. We watched him pitch. Lol
Seriously, once the league figured him out, it was painful. He was shell shocked and looking into the dugout for the hook once he hit 90 pitches. He had nothing. It seemed his only goal was to get to 90. He had no plan, no confidence and every time out, he had that “please get an out” look and body language.
I don’t know if it was mechanics or mental, but he was fried.
You know how deGrom, Scherzer, Morton, etc look when they take the mound? That body language and eye that says, “I own this team. This game is mine. Here’s my stuff, you can’t beat it.” Yeah, Matz has never had that inner confidence. Walker does at times. Stroman almost does. Diaz does. Megill has a little of it right now. Peterson has it s game here and there. Loup did.
Bottom line is, Matz appears to pitch to try to not lose. He never pitches to win.
Interesting take.
I’m not overly familiar with Matz. But do you recall Jimmy Key? He always looked like a mallard on opening day out there. (Ya know: little beady eyes screaming “AWWW ****!”.
I sometimes thought it was perhaps done purposefully to catch hitters off balance as he was blowing through them.
Posada would toss the ball back after a strike & Key would have that “oh God…now what am I gonna do?” look all over again.
I had forgotten all about that, man.
It took me watching at least a dozen of his starts before I realized that was just sort of his deal. Much different than Petitte peaking over his glove with the brim of his cap pulled down, or Clemens ragefully stalking around the mound like he’d rather put the ball down & just throw his fist at you instead.
{sigh}
I really miss have a staff like that.
@jim stem I would counter this by saying that
1) Matz really improved last year and seems to be trending in the right direction. He’s young, so it’s not like he’s unfixable.
2) The Mets current starting pitching staff is: deGrom (coming off an injury riddled season), Walker (who can’t really pitch a full season), Carrasco (who looked bad coming off his injury), Megill and Peterson (who both looked shaky). Adding Matz to this rotation would definitely be an improvement. The Mets need starting pitching depth. IMO Matz is absolutely perfect as a quality backend starter. For the Mets as currently constructed, he’d likely be their number #2-3. Now of course the Mets are going to be looking for more pitching, but Matz definitely fits the bill.
Ducky Buckin Fent
But do you recall Jimmy Key?
=====================================
One of my favorite Yankees ever. It’s a short list, but impossible to get on.
I refuse to look it up, but my recollection is that he barely hit 90 on the radar. He treated the strike zone like the it was the outside ring of a dart board, Never, ever threw a pitch close to the middle of the plate. He had a really low K/9 rate, since he didn’t have good stuff, but kept the walks and the HRs to a minimum. 48-23 with a 123 ERA+ with the NYY, and I have friends that throw harder.
I think Mike Torrez would be the only red sox player I have liked. But: there’s a lot going on there. Respected a whole bunch of them though.
Exactly.
Hell, *my* FB was only a few tics less. But I just remember him all wide eyed, kinda slouched, with all those wrinkles in his forehead. He looked terrified – while on his way to throwing 7 innings of two run ball.
Jays fans have good memories of Key’s work, too.
And he’s one of those guys you could even like as a Yankee
😉
Walker (who know will probably have an easier time pitching a full year.
Carrasco who was rushed back.
Peterson who pitched hurt
Magill who only pitched worse bc he had the same problem as Walker but should be better at this umyear.
The Mets pitching staff still has question marks but don’t make it seem worse than it is just to fit your narrative
You pretty much said everything I said. I didn’t spin anything. We disagree on Walker who’s never been able to pitch a full season in his career, but really we’re saying the same thing. The Mets rotation has question marks and lacks depth. Matz would solve some of that. I’m not really sure what you’re arguing.
Only if he’s the no. 5 guy on a very team-friendly deal. Anyone who offers him an overpay like the Angels did with Thor and Loup may regret it when Matz regresses.
He was a homegrown Met (and Long Islander) but we saw plenty of warts that don’t just magically go away.
It definitely helps when you play on a time that can actually hit and score runs, which the Mets failed to do during Matz’s tenure. Definitely a backend guy as you pointed out, but I think jaded Mets fans are underrating him a bit.
There is some truth to that, but as one of my fellow Met fans pointed out earlier, there are far too many times he just implodes and looks meek on the mound. I can’t imagine why, considering the team had such an impressive core of young pitchers (who can also hit!), but he’s as apt to give up a grand slam in the first inning as get you into the sixth.
@NMK definitely. For example he struggled pitching in CBP, a real hitter’s park. I’ve witnessed at least 2 implosions Matz had against the Phillies. I agree with the buyer beware mentality here, but I do think he’s a solid depth option depending on price.
Alex, I will take ‘4 SPs that wouldn’t start on the RS mediocre rotation’ for $1,000.
Tough one. If you told me Matz and Ray had identical seasons next year I would believe you 100%.
If you’re pegging him as a 30 start guy with a 3.7 ERA what’s that worth on the market? 16 per over 4 years?
Why would anyone peg him at either of those numbers though?
Boston
Really don’t think the Tigers should sign Matz. They already have E-Rod and Skubal in the rotation. Not to mention Boyd if and when he returns. 2 to 3 Lefties are more than enough.
With the Tigers, I guess it would be less about LHP/RHP (which will never balance out in a 5-man rotation). But they will hope for Turnbull coming back from TJS in 2023 and Manning making progress towards becoming a viable starter, which means that five starters would be available then. Therefore I expect them to sign a veteran starter to a one-year contract.
The Tigers probably could easily have had Miley for $ 10m, since they made a deal with the Reds to acquire Barnhart just before the Reds waived Miley. Since the Tigers obviously chose not to pursue that option, it casts some doubt on whether they would be willing to pay $10m for their BOR veteran starter, an AAV that Matz will likely exceed.
If I had to bet, I would pick the Mets. They will need to steer clear of FAs who received a QO to avoid forfeiting draft pick #14. Matz seems like a very good option in this regard (just like Stroman or Gausman, by the way).
Gruß,
BSHH
Cardinals.. I would be shocked if they did.
I’m afraid it will be the Cardinals and it will be Brett Cecil all over again. Overpay for a Blue Jay lefty who spends 90% of the contract hurt and being well respected in the clubhouse.
3 year-45Mil
If the contracts for that the Giants just handed out to Wood and DeSclafani are any indication then he’s getting 11-13 mil a year for 2 to 3 years.
Was Matz really all that different in 2018 and 2019 then he was in 2021? 2018 30 starts 154 innings 68 earned runs, 2019 30 starts, 160 innings 75 earned runs, 2021 29 starts 151 innings, 64 Earned Runs. 2020 was a pretty messed up year for alot of people, I see the same guy that pitched for the Mets in 18-19. For a team that can score runs, he’s a solid 5th starter.. If the list of interested teams is correct, if I were him I’d be choosing from the 3 that scored 5 runs a game, Toronto, Boston and Los Angeles. Wins might not be important statistically, but they sure feel good when you are getting them, and with those 3 teams, he would have a good chance to get them. If he truly wants to play close to where he grew up and the Mets truly did make an offer and the Yankees have not, then I guess he chooses the Mets, but the Yankees should be loaded with lefties with the stadium configuration.
It’s different putting up the numbers in the AL East, with a DH, with his home field being 3 different bandboxes. So yes, he was better in ’21.
That is a great take. So the guy was better in 2021 than he was in 18/19 and per the article “Interest in Matz has been robust, with the Red Sox, incumbent Blue Jays, Mets, Dodgers, Cardinals and Angels among teams already rumored to have interest. Jon Heyman of the MLB Network adds the Tigers, Cubs and Giants to that mix.” When I see teams like the Giants and the Dodgers & Red Sox with their Rays roots and the Cardinals all wanting in on this guy, it makes me think that their super analytics teams along with their scouts saw whatever it is that the Blue Jays coaches found. They think they can replicate it or even make him better. That doesn’t mean he can be as good or better for other teams, you need the right data, the right coaches and a willing student. Not every team can offer that.
This could be a move the Braves makes because AA always keeps his options close to the vest. And they want a veteran number 4 to eat up innings. I dont think they sign him but he seems like a AA guy.
Agree about the Braves. Perfect #4 or #5 starter for them, plus nice insurance in case Morton starts to show his age.
Matz could be very good or he could completely go into the tank next year. He is a bit of a Chameleon, you never know what you are going to get.
All along I have said he is a weak #3 in the rotation – that is when he can get people out which he was fairly good at this year.
One warning though, he was max effort on many of his fastballs this year and he pitched 150 innings and other that 2018/2019, he seems to alternate between good and terrible years.
Buyer beware.
So kinda like Andy Pettitte?
Jimmertree actually said he was a number 47. Ray didn’t know where the ball was going and Semien was a spare part.
Hilarity ensues. The Mets had Matz work with their guy, Phil Regan, during the offseason. They dealt him for next to nothing anyway. Matz promptly put up a sub-2.00 ERA in Spring Training and his best season since 2016 for the Jays.
Mets, you had nine years to figure him out. If you couldn’t do it then, or with the same pitching coach as last season, you’re not going to do it now. Let it go.
For Matz’s sake I really hope he goes elsewhere.
Mets pitching coaching staff (pre-Hefner) has appeared clueless. How many pitchers came up through the minors, made the majors, and could never take the next step? They go to another team and “suddenly” figure things out?
If I’m a young pitcher, I pray to sign with the Blue Jays because they’ve got something special going on with that coaching staff.
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear
“How many pitchers came up through the minors, made the majors, and could never take the next step? They go to another team and “suddenly” figure things out?”
Any examples of this besides Matz?
Could probably cherry pick a few but this doesn’t happen with the Mets anymore than it does with any other team.
@Cosmo Yeah. That’s what I was going with. The poster seemed to imply this happens more than the Mets with other teams, and I thought I was missing something because I don’t see that.
Meh. Feels like a #5. In the 4 years prior to 2021, Matz had a 4.83 ERA and a 4.92 FIP. I don’t like signing players who strike gold in their walk year.
Honestly, in this day and age any pitcher who can sustain a sub 5.00 era through 100 plus innings is a pretty darn awesome #5. Probably a pretty good 3 or 4 actually.
You can’t count 2020 the same as you do the other years.
the Cubs must sign a Jon Gray and Yusei Kikuchi too
Why Jon Gray? He’s okay. I don’t think he’s lived up to his potential but maybe I’m wrong. Matz and Kikuchi I wouldn’t mind.
if the Cubs really want to compete this season they should sign Carlos Rodon, and one of Matz, Gray, Kikuchi.
and improve his offense, signing Michael Conforto OF, Javier Báez SS and 3B Kyle Seager
Baez isn’t returning. And he shouldn’t.
He had a hard time getting through the batting order 3 time through. Number 5 or long relief.
I’m fine on missing out on Matz. Yes he had a great 2021 while pitching in a hitter’s division.
But he’s entering decline years and has a career ERA+ of 96. Meanwhile in house lefties Sandoval and Suarez are hitting their primes.
3 lefties in a row to round out a rotation isn’t ideal.
Why would they need to be in a row?
Also Matz only faced the AL east 6 teams last year
True, we could slot the out of options Barria in there somewhere. I’ve mentally penciled him in as the last guy but he could be moved.
Ohtani, Thor, Sandoval, Suarez, Barria, Matz.
In 1994 The Angels had 4 lefties in the rotation.
Anderson
Finley
Langston
Mcgrane
And the lone RH was a guy named Leftwich
hope it’s not the angels since they have a few 5 or 6 candidates.
I think he gets what Desclafani just got at 3/36m. He would be a very good #4 or #5 pitcher for a good team. Best guess is he goes back to Jays.
Halos, please pass on this guy. Too inconsistent. The word pedestrian comes to mind here. One good season in a row does not an ace make. Angels need one more nasty starter—one who is just filthy. Would have loved Verlander. Alas, I’d like them to sign Rodon and trade for Sonny Gray. A 6 man rotation of Ohtani, Rodon, Syndergaard, Gray, Sandoval, Barria/Detmers/Canning. Now THAT is a great rotation.
Gray struggled with his secondary pitches.He’s streaky, but something is missing.Maybe a good pitching coach can reboot him back to that nasty kid who came rt at you in Oakland.
@lumber. Maybe the Coors effect? Meaning, he relies heavily on his sinker and fastball because breaking pitches don’t bite in the mile high air.
While his home numbers are actually better than his road, I can only wonder what happens if he gets into a pitcher’s park and develops a wrinkly pitch?
I’d like to see him with my Mets.
I also think guys like Danny Duffy are way undervalued.
If the halos are thinking about Matz.They must have deals waiting with either Sandoval,Suarez,Canning,& Barria.Maybe 3-4 of these SP for 2 Reds Castillo & Gray.Same combo 4 a bunch of teams cutting payroll like the A’s,Cubs,Clev,
Matz had flashes of brilliance as a Met. But he’s a #5 at best, and Mets need to identify 2, 3, and 4 before signing #5. If Eppler does this, it will be a bad omen
They should throw a five year deal at Stroman’s agent. He was dependable and a competitor. Build around Stroman. If he can be your 3 instead of your 1, you’ve got something special.
Carrasco shouldn’t be counted on. Act like he isn’t there. Then the ?? around deGrom need to adjusted. Stop throwing 102 and go back to ground ball contact with 100 pitch complete games. Now we need a 2 in front of Stroman. Megill is a 5. Peterson returning will be a 4, maybe. We need a strong #2 and healthy #3. This team has to stop depending on guys coming off of long rehab stints.
Agree – they should sign Stroman. But a rotation with both Peterson and Magill makes me queasy. Would like to see then add another dependable veteran.
deGrom
Stroman
Vet acquired in trade
Vet acquired via FA
Magill/Carrasco
Not sure why Avila would be interested after signing E-Rod. Don’t see a lot of rotations with 3 lefties.
Yankees need to get Matz or someone quickly. The Yankees need to start acting instead of reacting. The Yankees need to be front and center this off-season. The Yankees always react the Yankees lost Ohtani they reacted and got Stanton. Why did l does Cashman wait and wait then act because of desperation. If you want Marte, Seager, Olson etc. Go get them regardless of cost. Start acting. Strike first Yankees need to be a leader of free agency not a follower
A smart team looking for SP would be wise to sign both Matz and Jon Gray. The cost would be substantially less than the higher priced spreads like Scherzer, Ray or Stroman, all of whom figure to get at least $15 million per year over multiple years.
Pitching in the AL East and pitching against the NL East in inter-league play is no easy task. As for Gray, no more Coors Field and no more home/away matchups vs. the Dodgers and Padres.
Would not shock me to see the Cardinals sign one, or maybe both if they let Kim walk.
Yup, Matz and Gray together would certainly solidify any staff. But I don’t agree on the cost. I see both of those guys getting overpaid
Never understood why the Mets traded him. He had 2 good 30 start seasons and then a bad Covid shortened season and they deal him. They needed pitching at the time, seemed like a shortsighted move.
@carlos. Have you seen him pitch more than a game here and there?
Over his last four years with the Mets and 80+ starts, he went 19-33 with an era around 5.75. He was ok in some starts, but shelled in many. Like many of the Mets pitchers before Hefner, he appeared to never have a plan and couldn’t get past the 5th inning. He was a twice through lineup only starter.
Folks want to talk about the Covid disaster season, but keep in mind many of those hitters were minor leaguers.
He’s good when he settles down. It’s a mental problem he has. He gets wound up. He needed to leave NY because he was there so long
He never put up many innings, I don’t disagree. He’s not great, but they didn’t have a whole lot of better options. Trading him hurt them more than it helped. I have watched him pitched over the years and he is streaky but if you remove 2020’s shortened season he had 2 good seasons for a back rotation guy. The Mets could’ve used him this year in a big way.
I thought it was a given he’d be QO’d to at least get a draft pick. It would seem obvious he’ll command a multiyear deal
If Tony Disco gets 3 for 36 then Matz needs to be our next 3 for 30 in Texas. Please.
@Rangers29. I would be shocked if Matz only gets 10 a year. Matz needs to fire his agent.
He’s signing with the Orioles. He’ll most likely end up being the AL Cy Young winner. 30-1, 0.10 ERA over 50 games started.
Mr. Avila, just say nooooo!!! Matz might be ok on a cheap contract signed closer to training camp, but isn’t some guy I would earmark as an early offseason must-have. He strikes me as a #5 and I just don’t see much upside.
I think he has some upside. Has shown flashes at times, but injuries have stunted his career. That being said, I don’t see the tigers having 3 lefties in the rotation. Feel like the tigers have either made a super low ball offer or were considering him before the Rodriguez deal and no longer are.
The pirates signing of Jose Quintana set the market, now all the 2nd tier pitchers can sign.
Since the Jays got him straightened out, hopefully here turns there and continues to have some success, 5 innings per start.
Hopeful that he doesn’t sign with the Angels.
Angels probably. Or the Giants and Blue Jays. The other teams probably put in standard offers
If it’s all about the best offer then probably the Angels
Wrong
1. SF
2. Angels
3. Mets
4. Red Sox
5. Cubs
Wrong
Surprised to see the Mets in there. If the offer is competitive, I can see him coming back since he’s from NY and a Mets fan growing up.
Probably just a standard market value offer like they gave to Springer
I think the Mets are first in line after the California teams. Hard to turn down a multi-year deal to live in California.
I rather have him than Peterson.
Personally I see those two as very similar pitchers. When they’re on they can look great, and at the same time get lit in the first inning as if they’re tossing volleyballs. At the end of the day, solid #5’s, but nothing more.
You can’t hit a volleyball very far with a baseball bat.
I don’t see this as an improvement over what we already have in Anaheim. Add another #4 or 5 starter? Save the money for a different pursuit IMO.
I’d rather the Angels resign Cobb than Matz. I fear that the Angels would overpay for Matz and pretty much end their pursuit of additional starting pitching. Cobb should be had at a short-term and economical contract still leaving the Angels with room to sign a front line starting pitcher.
Giants would be his best choice.
One thing is clear from this thread. Fans have no understanding of what a #5 starting pitcher is. Matz in 2021 was a 3.
whelp I was wrong on this one I guess.
Interesting that Giants are still in on Matz–if my quick calculations are right, last years salaries for Cueto, DeSclafani and Wood were 31 million–add on 5 million buyout for Cueto for this year and they spent 36 million on those 3–this year, DeSclafani is 12 million, Wood is 10 million plus, and lets say Cobb signs for 9 million for 2022–that is the 31 million right there to equal for last year–if they pivot to Matz instead of Cobb, and using MLBTR avg of 9 million for Matz, its the same 31 million the 3 guys on last years roster got–and even if Matz goes for 14 million instead of the 9 million the site projects, its the same as the outlay for 2021 plus Cuetos buy out—so in reality, SF is spending the same as last year, and still has a ton of money to go after a #1 SP and a bat also
Hope the Angels don’t overpay for Matz. I’m guessing he’ll be in the 3-45mil range. I’d rather the Angels use that money on a difference maker. Scherzer is probably going back to the Dodgers but he’d be the best option. 3-120mil. Or go after Ray, Gray, Gausman. Guessing they’re in the 20-25mil per year range.
I think he likes working with the Jays pitching staff and returns to the Jays for 3/36.
please don’t come back to the Mets, Steven…thank you in advance…
Matz is barely a #5 and not what the Giants need after signing DeSclafani and (probably) Wood. Anything SF pays will be wasted money, even if we’re talking about “depth.”
Red Sox should pass! Signs of Martin Perez…..(maybe a little better), but geez is this the market for pitchers.
Matz is finally coming into his own. 17-8 next year
He could just as easily be 8-17
Crazy how fast people forget.In the playoffs he’s a killer.Kershaw and Matz was a classic.He won another start and he was leading when he was yanked before the Dodgers caught up to their bullpen.Matz has grit,he’s poised,&kid competes.Mets should of never traded him.From his very first game teams should of learned the kids a winner IMO.Kershaw and Matz dealing is a great memory.I would want Matz on my team,he’s far from Ave.
I’m betting that the two year offer was from the Angels.
Going to STL. 4 yrs/$44M. Overpay
4 years with his age and injury history is quite the gamble. Cards are usually pretty good at their signings, though.
Heads Mark Mulder, tails Rick Ankiel
Boy what are the Card’s thinking. Matz at best is a number 3’ish, at worst a middle reliever. You don’t give a career 4.74 ERA guy four years. I mean shoot i get it E Rod but at least E Rod has given some constancy.
EROD to Detroit, Syndgaart to Angels, Matz to Cardinals, Red Sox Bloom in cheap mode underwhelming again and looking to Dumpster Dive and pick up crumbs other teams leave on the ground.
AL34 = Thanks to the brilliant Price move he’s short $16M to add players just like in 2021. Bloom doesn’t have permission to spend big bucks so fans need to accept the new reality in Boston. Why spend big bucks after a miracle season when you make the playoffs with a mediocre talent level that over performs? Just sell fans on them doing it again and put the savings in the bank!!
Boston could fill out it’s starting staff for $8M if they just sign Kim for $5M and trade for Means who costs $3.25M. Two left handed starting pitchers with much better numbers than E-Rod. Then trade Devers to Cleveland for Ramirez and fix the huge problem at 3B. Those three additions would move them into contention in the AL East. Without them another miracle will need to happen for them to make the 2nd wildcard spot.
Bloom in cheap mode
====================================
I’m not sure why it needs repeating, but this is not Bloom’s money. Henry supplies the budget, and Bloom spends it.
Mr.Money Bags Cohen has another one escape.Matz signs with Cards.Avoiding the drama.Of course the Muts will say they weren’t interested.
How does a NYer pass up on the Mets to go to the Cardinals? Didn’t he hear the narrative that everyone from his home state says when they say, “everyone wants to play in NY”? Who the heck wants to go to St. Louis over NY?
And the added thing he passed up on was being labeled an “Ace” again by the Mets Hype Machine with all their hyperbole.