3:09pm: Manager Derek Shelton tells reporters (including The Athletic’s Rob Biertempfel) that Cruz suffered a left ankle fracture.
2:39pm: Pirates shortstop Oneil Cruz left today’s game with an apparent injury to his left leg after a collision at the plate. In the bottom of the sixth, Cruz was trying to score from third on a Ke’Bryan Hayes grounder, and was called out after running into White Sox catcher Seby Zavala. Cruz was on the ground in obvious pain afterwards and had to be helped off the field. The play also sparked a benches-clearing brawl between the Pirates and White Sox, as on-deck hitter Carlos Santana exchanged heated words with Zavala in the aftermath.
The brawl might result in some discipline from the league in the coming days, but the bigger story is Cruz, whose left foot jammed awkwardly into the ground on his slide attempt. More will be known on Cruz’s injury after the game, yet it would seem like a trip to the injured list will be the minimum result, and the shortstop and the Pirates can only hope a more serious injury has been avoided.
Cruz is one of the cornerstones of the Bucs’ rebuilding process, as he went from top prospect to promising rookie in a 2022 season that saw him hit .233/.294/.450 with 17 homers over 361 plate appearances. It was enough to earn Cruz a sixth-place finish in NL Rookie of the Year voting, as while his defense and his contact skills are still a work in progress, there’s obviously a very high ceiling of potential given Cruz’s speed, power, and ability to make hard contact. Entering today’s game, Cruz had a .267/.378/.400 slash line in his first 37 PA of the 2023 season, with one home run and a much more respectable 21.6% strikeout rate.
If Cruz does end up missing time, Rodolfo Castro or Ji Hwan Bae are the likeliest candidates to take over at shortstop. Since that duo has been splitting time at second base and Bae has also seen some time in center field, Pittsburgh would likely call up a versatile infielder like Mark Mathias, Tucupita Marcano, or Chris Owings to fill the void, though promoting Owings would require added him to the 40-man roster.
NOOOOOOOOO collision at the plate??! Why?
Because if your first name is O’Neil, anything is possible.
watch the vid. Cruz just did a weird half slide even though there was room. Entirely his own fault
what happened to the Buster Posey rule that catchers weren’t permitted to block the pitch plate?
He received a throw. He came down in front of the plate and made a tag. What did you want him to do, run away?
How can you block the plate when you’re up in the air? By using the force? I finally saw the play and he just slid late and badly into Savala’s shin pad. His own fault. Like everybody else in the league. They slide late and break something. After you jump to catch the ball your feet come down wherever they come down.
Catchers are not allowed to block the plate. The catcher was blocking the plate. What part of the Buster Posey rule don’t you understand ?
SMH
He was standing in the lane when he jumped for the ball. It doesn’t matter when Cruz started his slide.
TheMan, You don’t know the rule.
First of all the Posey rule doesn’t say that. The Posey rule says you can block the plate if you have the ball. By the time Cruz got there Zavala had the ball. In fact when the play started he was standing in front of the plate as he should be. Then he jumped up came down and blocked the plate. You’re completely wrong-The man. Or should we say the Homer. Look it’s sad he got hurt but it wasn’t anyone’s fault. The only bad thing Zavala did was yell something when the guy was on the ground. I don’t know WHAT he said, But for all anyone knows he yelled are you OK? The Posey rule just says you can’t block the plate WITHOUT the ball.
What’s a pitch plate?
The catcher isn’t allowed to block the plate unless he is receiving the ball or already has the ball.
They’re those plates at the Carnival you throw baseballs at and if you break 3 you get a cheap Chinese Toy. LOL
Did Shelton review the play? If not there you go. He knew he wouldn’t win. End of story. SMH
It wasn’t blocking the plate, but Shelton isn’t exactly the sharpest tool in the shed either.
@TheMan, he was not blocking the plate per MLB rules on blocking the plate. A simple Google search will explain why to you. Bad slide on Cruz’s part, hopefully he has speedy recovery.
Catchers must give a clear path to the plate. But Cruz was inside the baseline even though there was a clear path to the plate. Then he half slid like a 8 year old learning how to slide for the first time and jammed his foot. No one’s fault but his own, and Santana should apologize to both teams for starting a fight for zero reason
It was the heat of the moment and I’m sure once everyone cools down. They will see a freak accident. Yes it was a bad slide. . Now catcher was had to jump for the throw because Cruz is so tall. The throw was fine.
It was only a bad slide because the circumstances led to a bad choice.
Pick a spot. Slide feet first. And no matter what spot he picked, he would have been out.
He thought he might have a lane that would allow him to be safe. The lane never opened. By the time he decided to slide, it was to late. Had the throw been to the inside or to the outside of the plate, he would have adjusted and i bet he would have made a great slide. . But it wasn’t, and he had nowhere to go.
He thought he had a lane on the inside of the base path? Where the catcher was standing, the entire time? That would be a very bad thought if he actually had it. But he didn’t think that. No one in their right mind would think that
Run away ! Run away! #python
Shelton is still a horrible manager. Out of the 3 hottest hitters, Santana, Conor Joe and Cutch , only Santana played yesterday in favor of Choi who never saw a pitch he didn’t swing at.
Regarding the collision at home plate, there was no logical reason why the 3rd base coach told Cruz to break for the plate especially considering that Cruz has such a lanky body and was just a matter of time before he gets hurt
directly from MLB.COM: “The catcher is not permitted to block the runner’s path to the plate unless he is in possession of the ball, though blocking the path of the runner in a legitimate attempt TO RECEIVE A THROW is NOT considered a violation.”
mlb.com/glossary/rules/collisions-at-home-plate
You obviously don’t know the rule….once the catcher has the ball, he can block the plate….check the replay!
We disagree. I’ve done that at every level and at every base. I could hook to the left, or right. Including first base.
But some have suggested he was looking 7 feet above home plate to see where the catcher caught the ball. That’s absurd. But if did do that, that’s how he broke his ankle.
It was a bad slide because he got down too late. And I’d bet he got down too late is because he thought a lane was going to open up, which often does when a fielder has to jump for a throw.
Do you think it happened because he’s clueless? That seems the least plausible
“Including first base” told me everything I need to know
That was a terrible slide. He needed to slide a good 2-3 steps earlier and probably headfirst on the back side of home and he’s easily safe and not injured. That was just bad baseball on his own part.
Yes, but since you don’t know which way the catcher is going to come down, you don’t know where to slide.
You’re right, he should have started his slide earlier. But I understand why he didn’t.
Well the fact that the catcher was standing inside of home plate means you slide to the back side of it. Clear as day he should’ve easily observed that as he’s coming down the line. I don’t know why he wouldn’t be thinking about sliding earlier than he did. The on deck batter probably didn’t give him any help and tell/signal him to slide either.
But the catcher in the air. As a runner you have no idea where he is going to come down. You are not looking at the catch, you are looking at the plate and the legs.
If you don’t understand what happened, you’ve never tried to score on a high throw. I know what was going on because I’ve been there
@Nico – You couldn’t have said it better. A slide way out toward the back side of the plate and a reach to the plate makes the score 2-0, and he celebrating two seconds later and uninjured. The brutally awkward slide was the problem.
Then you don’t get it. You don’t know he’s not coming down on the outside part of the plate. You know the ball is going to beat you. Because the catcher hasn’t come down, you don’t know where he’s coming down.
It’s easy to say it after the fact.
You’re right , very ugly slide
It was. But the situation was conducive to an ugly slide. If a runner has to make up his mind where to slide before the catcher comes down, and makes the wrong choice, bad things can happen. If the runner thinks has time to decide after the catcher comes down, and he doesn’t. Bad things can happen.
As a runner. The situation sucks.
He should have slid outside. That much he did know
No, you do. You can see the catcher go straight up. My guess is Cruz didn’t look until it was too late
If you want to pick the biggest Jerkweed of the whole play it was Santana. If he wanted to do something constructive he should of been on the 1st base side of the plate telling Cruz where to slide. Instead he had a real cheap nice seat watching the game and standing there with a bat in his hands and watching his guy break his ankle. Nice. Then, instead of helping the guy he starts a fight where Cruz could of gotten trounced in the aftermath. A complete Wad.
He’ll of to do better next time if he ever ofs a chance.
No it wasn’t lol
on a throw from anywhere but 3B, yes. but on an infield ground ball on a throw from 3B you try to run between the fielder and the catcher’s glove to try to have the ball hit you.
Nobody collides more violently at the plate than Alenjandro Kirk. And that’s at the post-game spread in the clubhouse.
Heyyyooooooo
These collisions at the plate shouldn’t happen. They have now left Cruz, who is a bright young star, and Travis d’Arnaud injured.
You obviously didn’t see the play.
I saw it, it was Cruz’s fault, he slid like a baby deer. It just sucks.
Then you dont know baseball
I think you and Sid are about to collide.
I don’t know baseball Halo11Fan, is that what you are saying? Interesting take. I only said that these collisions shouldn’t occur, I even said that Cruz was to blame for this one.
Look, I get it. Your team sucks and probably always will. You’ve completely wasted the prime of a generational player in Mike Trout, and know that another one is going to leave after the season to get away so he can experience winning. That’s frustrating. I don’t take offense.
He said it to me too. I wouldn’t worry about it. His little league knowledge of baseball is extremely telling
No that’s not it. Sid knows everything.
You’re just mad because you got demolished on the other thread with your old man takes..
No your wrong like you are a lot. I don’t expect much out of you. Especially the simple stuff. To much for you.
Such a bright comment. You had a stupid take that no one agreed with, and then you doubled down on dumb by suggesting that me and the hordes of people not agreeing with your inanity were “bots” like you just learned that word last week when your great grandkids swung by the home to see you. Cherish that, since you don’t know anything about baseball.
Sure seemed like bots when one comment had 5 thumbs up in about the first 5 minutes of posting and none other had more than 2 in the entire comment section. Your lost. The rate of injuries in baseball is like nothing ever seen. There. Said it again. Now go far away.
*you’re
Basically calling me stupid while using your instead of you’re. Priceless gramps.
Ok.
@Sid, this was not a case of a deliberate plate collision. This was an unfortunate situation largely due to a poor slide.
I didn’t say it was intentional. Cruz slid very late, and he is all legs like a baby deer. Not sure how a literate person could glean anything else from my comments.
I don’t even know what the fight was about? Cruz slid, late, hard and straight into the plate. The catcher was coming down after a high throw and trying to tag Cruz out.
There are going to be some collisions in this game. It was just one of those things.
Zavala appeared to say something to Santana, which fueled his ongoing rivalry with the white sox dating back to his Cleveland days.
It could be, I didn’t get it. Clean play by both teams. I think Santana should have been more concerned with Cruz.
Things sometimes happen.
Definitely. Big moment in the game where the intensity was high
Santana wasn’t smooth.
Actually if you look Zavala looks back and says something to Cruz as he’s in pain which appears to spark the interaction between Santana and Zavala.
Think he thought he intentionally slid late to collide. Heat of the moment. Don’t blame him for thinking wtf at the time
A “slide” like that could have blown out Zavala’s knees and was easily avoidable. I think that’s what he was upset about. I’ve heard you say you don’t know where the catcher is coming down. I disagree because he jumped straight up, but even if we allow that argument, picking one side or another is still better than plowing into the C knee-to-knee, isn’t it? I’m not for a second saying he deserved what happened to him, but what happened is entirely his own doing and I’m grateful that Zavala’s not hurt as well because he certainly could have been.
This is the worst Easter weekend since they killed Jesus.
Cruz ain’t going to be back in three days.
Don’t you know that Jesus was a nepo baby? It’s easy to start a new religion when God is your dad!
One of the few truly funny comments I’ve seen on here. Hilarious. Well done.
I think last Easter’s AirBnB party shooting about a mile away from PNC Park was much worse.
What about the times they killed Kenny
Jesus was killed on a Friday, not on the weekend
also the weekend was only one day (Saturday) until the first Easter. so whether you believe in Jesus or not, you can thank him for giving you a two day weekend – also thank Washington & Lincoln for being born the same week and giving you a three day weekend
Where did you get that nonsense about the weekend? Probably from the same reliable source that told you Lincoln (February 12) and Washington (February 22) were born the same week.
If you look at a calendar, you will learn that there are seven days in a week, not 11. smh
Washington and Lincoln- the two headed 80s combo from Canada who found fame as Loverboy. One upped their countrymen Rush when they decided collectively to help out the Working Man in search of the Weekend.
I thank Depeche Mode for giving us our own Personal Jesus. And Pizza Hut for our own Personal Pan Pizza.
I’m not sure why Cruz came into the plate the way he did. If you didn’t see it, picture a 10 lb sack of potatoes with openings at both ends being chucked at your head. I wish he didn’t do that because he kinda caused his own injury.
Because as a runner, when the catcher jumps up to make the catch, you don’t know which way to slide, because you don’t know how the catcher is going to come down. It’s just one of those things.
But as a runner, what you don’t do is body flop into the catcher like the big kid doing an uncontrolled belly flop into the pool. I’m sure when Cruz sees the reply, he’ll be like, “why did I do that?” Regardless, it happened and I do wish him a speedy recovery.
You have to make a split second decision with changing variables. I’ve been there. What happened is easy to understand if you have..
1: he can see Zavala is on the inside of the plate. So why was he inside the baseline?
2: I absolutely guarantee he can tell which direction Zavala was going when he went up. You can’t change directions in the air
3: I’m willing to bet Cruz will say it was 100% his fault whenever he gives his first interview
1) He sees him up in the air. He does not know where his is coming down. But if he’s coming down inside of the plate, the the batter clearly cannot slide to the outside part of the plate. Inside to the catcher is the same as outside to the runner.
2) You can do it because you are focused on the entire play. The runner is looking at lanes and legs. The fact you wrote what you wrote means you’ve never been in that situation. If you look up, you can’t adjust to the lane.
3) Cruz will likely say he slid late because he didn’t know what lane to take. And of course if he could do it again, he’d commit earlier….because it’s not worth it. But people are competitive, and he thought he had more time to adjust. He didn’t.
This 360 view, quarterback second guessing is easy, but if you have ever been there, and obviously you haven’t, you would know.
But when the same exact thing happened to me, I was safe and I don’t think I’d do it again. But I didn’t break an ankle, just writhed on the ground in pain.
Absolutely. If you watch it I don’t think the catcher is what broke his ankle after he slides by the plate his spike does get jammed into the dirt for a split second. That might be what broke his ankle. But I could be wrong.
I’m sorry what? Inside the base path is in fair territory. Always has been, always will be. Inside is fair, outside is foul.
If you look up you can’t adjust to the lane? You don’t EVER stare at your feet while running, that’s the most ridiculous comment I’ve ever heard
It was a little hop where he went straight up and came straight down. Not that hard to figure out (and before you start yes I have played baseball). I have seen plenty of situations like that before but never seen anyone make as poor a slide as Cruz did in reaction to it. He got himself injured.
He is out 3 months minimum. Not that they were destined for the playoffs, but this puts a big damper on the Pirates season. Instead of losing just 90 games, they are pretty much assured to lose 100 now.
Cruz is a 20 war player. Sweet.
Out was exaggerating as usual, but last time I checked 100-90 did not equal 20.
3 months not entire season. Must have hi flew over your head.
Nope. I just made the mistake of involving myself in a conversation where I didn’t need to be.
It’s certainly not the first time. Can only wish it’s the last.
It will be the last with you.
Cruz is a 20 WAR player? If that’s true I’m going to be in a 3-way with Charlize Theron and Kate Beckinsale tonight. And they’re taking me out to dinner after.
I’m pretty sure that you know very little about the Pirates. The Pirates nice start has had very little to do with Cruz, who’s been very average. Now if it happened to Reynolds, that’ll be a disaster. Just another opportunity for a rookie.
This is typical pirates. The good vibes never last for very long
For the Pirates it’s about 6 hours.
That sucks. I’m sorry to hear it. Hopefully young bones heal fast.
Players today don’t know how to slide feet first. They aren’t taught it and don’t practice it. They just sort of throw themselves at the base/plate and hope for the best. Saw the play, nobody’s fault. Hoping he’s back 100% this season, great player to watch.
Ugh. Left ankle fracture.
Cruz has a history of hitting things that cause really freakish result !
Yep… like the ground… 3′ short of home…
Motorcycles… Fans in the stands with his bats…
some guy named Javy baez had two hits today, Maybe y’all should give him a try at short.
please
Just waiting for the release to get him for minimum wage.
You want the Pirates, a team with no playoff aspirations, to take on the remaining +$100M contract for a player who, although had two hits today, has started the season abysmally slow with a negative WAR?
Doesn’t have to be the Pirates. Unfortunately, if a team has playoff aspirations, they’re not going to want Javy. As long as the Tigers bat him higher than 7th, their offense will continue to be putrid.
I don’t think he was serious pal.
Haven’t seen the play but I’d say 90% of the players have no idea how to slide anymore. From guys diving into home, Or leaping onto 1st base instead of running through like I was taught it’s amazing there isn’t more of this happening. Teams watering down the bases where players actually have to slide 2 feet from the base they should make some kind of universal rule about it. The bigger bases might help a bit as they seem much flatter than the old ones for whatever reason. Sliding is a lost art and nobody teaches it or does it particularly well except the elite 10% of base runners. I feel sorry for the Pirates but he surely won’t be the last to break something.
Imagine how many times Rickey Henderson slid! Between all the pickoff attempts, SB attempts, easily 2000-2500 times. And he played into his forties!
Cruz is a rising star, this is bad for baseball and terrible for pirates baseball. I hope he gets well and takes the time to make sure he comes back strong. If he’s out for the season that’d suck. Weird slide, hard to tell if anyone was at fault, i think they both made snap decisions, cruz probably shouldn’t have been tagging up on that short a throw home.
Catcher didn’t do anything wrong.
People use, “star”, far too loosely.
Cruz didn’t tag up. It was a ground ball. Zavala didn’t do anything wrong expect jawing at him. As for Cruz, it was a horrible slide
Collisions in baseball should be outlawed. Just yell ‘home’ and all the runners have to freeze.
Good grief…
Another case where the Posey rule causes the injury. Would have just barreled into him (and been fine) otherwise
Good to see you back. Hope you are doing well.
If you ever saw Pete Rose “barrel” into Cleveland catcher Ray Fosse in the 1971 All-Star game, you would understand that it doesn’t end up “just fine.” It ended Fosse’s career.
thank you
Different situation. I’m old enogh to have watched that play live.
1) Rose would have been safe if he slid.
2) The ball did not beat Rose to the plate.
3) Fosse was stationary and didn’t make a move to block the plate.
Maybe Rose thought he was going to make a move to block the plate, in which case a catcher deserves to get buried.
And it was the 70 All Star Game.
Rose had no business sliding in an exhibition game is what I remember everyone writing about the play. Everyone thought he only did it to have a stats in the all-star game. He was seen as highlighting the flawed person we saw as ‘Pete Rose’.
But this is from the eye of a Pirate fan and Pete did beat the Pirates single handedly often; however, I remember this about Pete and Ray Fosse. No one defended Rose and everyone was upset over the ‘slide’.
There was no rule preventing a catcher from blocking the plate. Even if there was, Fosse caught the ball and was waiting to tag Rose. Rose played the game hard. He slid head first into Fosse, trying to knock him out of the way so he could score. The force of the slide was great enough to bowl Fosse over. Fosse was doubled up in obvious pain. While that was extreme, that’s how the game was played. As a catcher, you kind of live for that play.
it was the All-Star game…the 4th of July picnic for the guys and the families…it was NOT a real game…anyway I have thought this all my life about the play.
It’s part of the game.
Well, at least before the Manfred slo pitch softball rules.
Man that was a collision that ruined a career. Foster was never the same.
True. But until 2012, getting trucked occasionally was part and parcel of being a catcher. I’ve had it happen to me! Had the whole horizon go 360° on me like I was in a front load dryer on spin cycle! No joke!
I held the ball though. Runner OUT!
It’s the best! If a runner is coming full steam towards the plate, you held the ball with both hands, put your shoulder down, and watched the runner go flying.
professional baseball player….slid like a 3rd grader.
It wasn’t a brawl ♂️♂️♂️
I just watched the play and it’s nobody’s fault. Just a lot of unfortunate events caused the injury. The catcher looked like he said something like “F you” for running into him. If the catcher knew Cruz was injured at the time he said it then shame on him. It all happened within seconds! Hoping for a speedy recovery for the kid!
From watching the play it seems like Cruz wasn’t expecting a throw home, hence the horrible attempt at a slide?
Sucks for baseball and Cruz…..hopefully surgery is successful….
Too bad but Cruz looked to me to have brought that on himself. Running down line and then makes an atrocious slide in to the catcher. Just slide towards back of the plate and make it harder for catcher to tag you. Watching his games vs Milwaukee, you can see the potential he has at being special for baseball. Hope this injury doesn’t set him back on his projection line.
What if the catcher comes down towards the back of the plate? You’re just as screwed.
The problem is you don’t know where the catcher is going to come down and you think you have enough time to react….but you don’t.
I’m wondering if I’m the only person who actually has had this happen to them. Physics don’t change.
I did have a collision with a guy who would go on to hit 350 big league home runs with a 121 OPS+. When I helped him up, he told me I was just playing ball. I was out.
I knew what I was doing but some circumstances can lead to bad outcomes.
Milling about and yelling isn’t a brawl. it’s more of a congregation of players.
An impromptu Easter service?
Polanco 2.0
O’Neil was a feature player on a team that with we were excited about, so DAMN!
The comments above that say it was a “bad slide” are incorrect. There was no slide.
Not piling on here and understand the situation is sensitive, but….
Looked at the replay a number of times and saw the same thing on this play that I’ve seen in most of Oneil Cruz’s game – he can run real fast, throw real hard, hit the ball real hard and far. He’s a poster child for all the kids that never played baseball and think that statcast and statistics explain a players ability on the field. Unfortunately, he’s the worst fundamental baseball player I’ve seen hit the major leagues in years, along with possibly having the lowest Baseball IQ as well. He cannot read game situations.
On this play it’s possible he didn’t anticipate a throw to the plate. So? It’s possible he doesn’t know how to slide. He ran with his 2 hands up and was about to run into the catcher – which is illegal – then dropped down a bit before he hit him. He should have slid around the catcher. On play like that most runners will slide in the right handed batters box reaching with their left hand to touch the plate. That’s fundamental baseball.
Oneil Cruz is something we see in professional team athletes today – some grow up with so much natural talent that they do want they want to do; and the coaches, managers, FO people, and team owners will not put a foot down – afraid of losing their jobs if the blue chip prospect becomes adjugated and demands to be moved to another organization.
Long before this play it was obvious to me that Mr. Cruz has no idea how to run the bases properly. Apparently that’s not important to him. When most on here were screaming that the Pirates needed to call him up from the minors, that they were just manipulating his service time, I (and a few others) were writing that he needed to work some things out at the minor league level….as that’s what the minor leagues are for. It seems that running the bases and sliding were one of them.
He’s not a SS. He doesn’t have the physical reactions, nor the Baseball IQ needed to successfully play that position as it relates to helping his team win games. But he wants to play there and the Pirates are afraid to tell him he can’t. They’re doing him no favors.
P.S.
A quality MLB organization will not put up with a players attitude like this – that he’s so good the game has to change for him…as opposed to the player respecting the game.
The Dodger traded him for a relief pitcher they brought in during the stretch run that helped them win a World Series. Shortly after they let the relief pitcher go. Doubt the Dodgers have any 2nd thoughts.
The Pirates are a crummy organization. They’ll put up with this.
Samuel: The guy is 6’7″. He’s all legs. A hook slide would probably have been a better choice given his proportions. That doesn’t mean he has a low baseball IQ. It means he’s young, he’s learning, he’s got a world of talent. He just has to get used to playing baseball with a basketball body.
Samuel, it was honestly a bad slide choice. He should have gone away from the tag. The only reason he was going into the baseline was to get his leg into the catcher and he hung a spike. It backfired…and sadly wasn’t the right choice. I scouted the Midwest League for to Colorado Rockies, and I’ll make that call.
Well…I’m guessing he’s probably now a 3B in 2024.
Dock_Elvis;
I know that you know baseball.
What he tried to do was necessary because he didn’t do what both you and I wrote he should have done.
As for his playing 3B – the other Pirates cornerstone player is a 3B (if Reynolds signs an extension he’ll be a 3rd player).
Cruz will be a DH.
–
I’ve read some comments in out-of-town papers that wrote about the play, and overwhelmingly readers posted that Cruz 1) doesn’t know how to slide, and 2) didn’t make the play correctly (one guy said his son in 6th grade knows better). I know his spike caught. But a player doesn’t try to start a slide a foot before hitting the catcher. This seems to be the only chatroom that can’t figure that out.
A ML player has to anticipate the situation, not suddenly realize that the catcher has the ball so he has to do something. It’s not just this play. I’ve seen Cruz mess up plays so often that it’s routine. As with the 3 outcomes he figures if he hits a HR that will cure all ills.
I don’t like him because he’s lazy, has no respect for the game at all, and sees himself as an entertainer not a baseball player. Put him in line with Tatis, Jr. and Acuna Jr. that did damage to themselves that will never fully heal – limiting what they will do in their careers.
Samuel-
I began counting “mental errors” during a spring game in Arizona in March. Both teams had most of their regulars, or bench on the field. I came up with 10. Most of which wouldn’t be reflected in box scores. Baseball players have become much more athletic, but things like 10 game travel ball tourneys with games and little repetition have led to lower baseball instincts. That’s gone on for a good 20 years or so, probably.
He kind of got caught between. But he shouldn’t have. He can’t make much contact with the catcher for risk of the Posey Rule, and this outcome. Evasive slide…and expose very little to a sweeping tag. But he’s probably out there.
Mental slip…I forgot about Hayes at 3B. More making the point the ankle might force his size off SS. DH would be kind of sad. Cannon arm. We’ll see. Just get him back on the field. I’d like a dime for every time I stuck a spike. It’s usually the bases causing rhat issue. But I’ve see even the infield lip do it too.
It’s just harsh on the fans there in Pittsburgh. No team/fans want or need this. Pirates needed it less than many others for sure.
Dock_Elvis;
I’ve been on here for years writing that mental errors are not reflected in statistics, which is why fans have to understand how to play baseball and watch the games – not just the highlights and look at numbers on spreadsheets.
And I understand bringing up players that still need work – maybe 10 years ago teams called that “finishing them off”. Repeatedly I’ve brought up the organizations that are now referred to as “developmental teams” – the Astros, Dodgers, Rays, Guardians, Braves, now Orioles, Phillies and Angels. They make the players on their ML roster better.
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The fact that Cruz got his spike caught because it occurred to him at the last moment that he couldn’t run into the Catcher is no excuse or rationalization…..it’s an indictment of the way he plays baseball. He could have ruined the career of Seby Zavala that did everything right.
Am sure many Pittsburgh baseball fans are disappointed. But I’ve read a number of posts from Pirates fans on here that understand how the game is played, and they’re been critical of the way the youngsters coming up the past few years have been trained.
If you’ve had anything to do with player development – no different than in any field – you’d know that not enforcing rules in a uniform manner with all employees doesn’t make for a quality organization. In fact, it usually blows up in the organizations face.
Samuel-
These are quite honestly errors that should be eliminated during amateur baseball. And it’s different depending on the players background. Some guys have been signed so young out of places where they’ve had little access to quality equipment and play a loose pickup style of game.
It’s difficult because you don’t want to destroy a players unique approach. Cruz will be fine. He’ll grow or not. He has the raw talent to outplay whatever deficiencies he has at this time. But when you’re perhaps on the large size for your position, and you begin having issues from the legs down. You might have to shift. Shifting off SS takes a little away from anyone with elite offensive talent. He’ll be back and he’ll rake. I just don’t like joint stuff, because it can flare up. I could be wrong and he’s back out gunning runners from SS.
I’m not nearly ready to make the pronouncements in his character, because I really haven’t seen him that much..and a lot of that comes in off the ball situations.
Stuff happens. This was one. Just feel bad for Pirates fans because this season they’ve had reason to enjoy a team that has the mark of being sneaky.
Dock_Elvis;
Come ‘on. Why do you keep making excuses for peoples behavior?
Oneil Cruz’s father played major league baseball. He had access to equipment and instruction. He was fawned over partially because of his father. As I wrote right off, he seems to have pushed back on anything he didn’t want to do….and got away with because it was a feather in the cap of anyone that got him for their team at any level of play.
Did you know that the Pirates people spoke with him last year about moving off of SS and he refused?*
Watching the way he plays, it sure seems to me that this guy wants to bat and hit the ball real far and hard (he does no situational hitting at all); run real fast; pick up a ball hit to him on D and throw it real fast. That’s it. He has no concept of a game situation and what he needs to do in it to help his team win (and not lose). He’s the dream player for persons raised playing baseball in rotisserie leagues and on a computer….and they don’t understand that all of this could have been averted.
I believe that fellow Pirate players are in awe of his raw talent. I also believe that professional coaches, scouts, managers and quality FO people know that there’s a lot more to playing major league baseball.
He did himself no favors by doing only want he wanted, and playing only where he wants to. His speed will never be the same, but it might be close. As I wrote, this is exactly what happened with Tatis Jr. and Acuna Jr. They did what they wanted – in spite of their organizations people trying to discipline their games – and suffered major injuries because of it. They can still play. But we’ve seen that since returning Acuna is not the same player, and expect we’ll see the same with Tatis. We’ll see what happens with Mr. Cruz.
* Mr. Cruz made 96 errors in 2671 innings playing SS in the minor leagues. That comes out to one every 27 innings. A SS is supposed to be the best pure fielder on a team. In 2022 he led major league SS’s in errors, even though he only played a part of the year.
Samuel-
I was trying to explain reality, not make excuses. And I’m not going to sit around and get trolled either. I don’t have much else to say on this. A person wouldn’t get anywhere in baseball by not allowing for possibility and letting their emotions in play in their observations. I just think you’re inferring and putting fact where opinion really is is all.
I’d love dealing with you as a GM. You’d off valuable assets too soon. He’s a young guy. You speak in extreme terms. You don’t know him, or what goes on inside the Pirates org either. So let’s just leave it at that.
But I get your frustration. I’m actually defensive of Pirate fans when they get slagged….I spent a series there in ’93 and ’94 and then again in ’21. The Pittsburgh region has great baseball fans.
Just caught the play. Catcher wasn’t blocking the plate and looked poised to go down with a tag. Cruz got his spike caught in the dirt. Issue is he was cutting inside the baseline. It was a dumb slide…if you can’t crash the catcher…gotta go to the outside. Very unfortunate. No doubt in the heat of the moment stuff was said. Catcher only felt him out of control tumbling and thought it was intended by Cruz. The you have Santana emotional seeing his brother down. I feel bad for the fans in Pittsburgh. Freak weirdness. Cruz might have just become a 3B.
Dock_Elvis;
I believe Santana was brought in there primarily to be a big brother to Cruz.
But protecting him – from who knows what – and bringing him along are 2 different things.
The White Sox catcher did nothing wrong on that play.
Samuel- I’m not sure your point. In the heat of the moment when you see a teammate go down it can cause an angry heat of the battle response. I didn’t see anything wrong with the catcher either. Guessing in the heat of the moment he said something…Santana heard it and it was on. It happens.
Home plate been an issue last night in Atlanta where runner didn’t slide than today this. Thinking that home plate rules should be looked at again.
Does Zavala have the right to be upset about the baserunning where he could’ve been the one injured?
I kind of don’t blame the catcher for being upset. That ridiculous “slide” could have easily caused him to be badly injured and potentially ruined his career.
What a devastating injury. Cruz will probably never be the same, ankle fractures take a full year to heal and, even then, it’s not 100% ever again. He’s on a $720k contract, the guy has never been paid, this injury is likely going to cost him tens of millions.
If anyone wants to see the play there is a great slow motion view of Cruz coming into the plate around the 10 second mark:
youtu.be/ovwlzeBiKkM
Does MiLB teach fundamentals anymore? I’ve seen many bad slides this year from the beginning of spring until now.
The Pirates’ build is starting to look like it is coming along very well but they can’t afford losing Oneil Cruz. The Pirates’ MiLB looks strong. Will Pittsburgh call up SS Tucupita Marcano with Cruz away?
Marcano is a possibility but not for SS. Most likely either Castro or Bae moves to SS, or both, and Marcano a possibility to replace them at 2B. Also Chris Owings, Mark Mathias as options.
Peguero is the natural SS on the farm. But there really is no true replacement here, offensively speaking
I’ve discussed the similarities between Cruz and Greg Polanco, a “can’t miss” prospect of a few years ago. To his credit, Cruz certainly appears to have been making strides where plate discipline, recognition of pitches and knowledge of pitch counts and strategies are concerned, something a Polanco was never able to grasp
His defense still needs to improve at a very different position but I will again point out the problem I have with this slide alone. It’s almost unfathomable that a major league base runner would have seen the catcher setting up and still decided to proceed with what just had to be a train wreck
I mean, the play is in front of you. What did you think was going to happen?
I wasn’t at Bradenton and have never witnessed baserunning instruction for Pirates players or prospects. But this slide harkened me back to the era of Polanco, who injured his shoulder on a poor slide into 3rd base
I’m piling on here, but I can’t figure out what Cruz was thinking here. There was no good outcome given his choice.
Sometime some players just can’t slide correctly. Rennie Stennett had a career altering injury from his jump into the bag and stick it type slide. He was an exception. What I’m seeing is poor overall sliding from most players.
Leg confusion…….he did not know when to slide
Fooque2;
Oneil’s father played in the major leagues. He’s been around baseball all his life. He’s also been fawned as I wrote above. He’s been playing professional baseball since 2016.
Questions:
Have you ever seen him slide?
Do you think he knows how to?
Do you think that in 6 years of playing professional baseball one
of the teams he played for might have had drills on how to slide properly….and not hurt yourself?
His head first slides when stealing second or going into third on a triple are fantastic actually. If he made the decision to slide earlier and went head first he probably gets under the tag and is safe.
No, that type of slide to the outside part of the plate would have made perfect sense. But then, taking that path in general was the better choice and one that I believe 99% of veteran ball players would have chosen
Thank God we let crybaby hayseeds like Buster Posey dictate the rules.
Because of his whining Cruz didn’t have the option to run through the catcher (the safer play) but instead had to figure out where the catcher was going to land and not run into him, all while it takes like 8 strides for him to run 90 feet (less since he was already leading off)
What a stupid take. Yeah, it’s Posey’s fault. Catchers should just deal with broken legs or contend with being run down like Ray Fosse was in a meaningless All Star game
He was never the same
Your comment is funny in an era where player safety is the issue in literally all professional sports, but your idea amounts to “screw the catcher”
Look, it was a ridiculous slide attempt. If anything, he should have opted to try for the back edge instead of this path.
It’s like he was a novice trying to decide what to do
WOW……have you ever played?
Cruz slide was reminiscent of a T-Ball slide by a 9 year old who doesn’t know how to slide properly…..and he’s supposed to be on the other side of the running lane which would have given him a clearer path to home plate and an outside chance of evading the tag…..but the bottom line was an awful slide by a player with an unfortunate confrontation afterwards in the heat of the moment……suggest you hold the ball with a player the size of Cruz and let him “run through” you while standing still with a ball……let us know how that works out for you!
As a White Sox fan, I hope he recovers quickly, but that’s a dangerous slide. He could’ve taken out Zavala’s knees just as easily. He should have tried to slide to the outside of the plate. Probably still would have been out, but at least would have been available for their next series.
this guy is so overrated anyway
I cringe at the thought of his trombone playing.