Dodgers owner Frank McCourt received a $1.2 billion offer for the Dodgers and related assets yesterday, though Major League Baseball appears skeptical. Here's the latest on the 66-70 Dodgers…
- Everybody is assuming that smoke and mirrors are involved in the $1.2 billion offer, according to ESPN.com's Buster Olney.
- The issues that plague the Dodgers and Mets mirror the cities the teams play in, Jeff Passan writes at Yahoo Sports. Everything about the Dodgers is excessive, while the Mets' situation is cold and cadaverous, Passan says.
- Bill Plaschke of the LA Times argues that Matt Kemp and Clayton Kershaw deserve the MVP and Cy Young Award, respectively.
- If Kershaw is a Cy Young candidate, then Cliff Lee has to be one as well, Eric Seidman argues at FanGraphs. The two-left-handers have remarkably similar numbers this season.
Kershaw CY Young, maybe… but how “valuable” can Kemp be on a last place team?
Dodgers arent In last place. They would have the first pick In the draft if it wasn’t for kemp and kershaw
2nd place team. it’s not over just yet
He’s been the best player in his league. That’s what the MVP is.
The Phillies are the best team in baseball and Shane Victorino has been the best player on the Phillies. Do you think he should be the MVP?
“He’s been the best player in baseball. That’s what the MVP is. ”
Entirely debateable. Fangraphs WAR has him fifth down, B-R has him tops, but I take a lot of umbrage with a WAR system that practically throws defense out the window. At best, he’s second best to Bautista, at worst, he’s the best in the NL easily, but still trailing Ellsbury, Pedroia and Granderson.
Votto is right there with him, too. Don’t sell him short.
More importantly, Halladay has actually outperformed Kemp in WAR by a half win and done it for a contender to boot. Yeah, yeah, there’s that whole objection to pitchers winning the MVP, and your mileage may vary on metrics… Everyone knows all that.
But there is a rock-solid case to be made that Halladay is the MVP.
Except Halladay has played in 109 fewer games than Kemp. I kid sort of, but unless a pitcher has a transcendent season (Koufax, Gibson, Clemens, etc.), I’m not in favor of pitcher winning the MVP.
I hear what you’re saying… but another way to look at it is that Halladay will affect approximately 1000 at bats this season, while Kemp will affect around 700.
“He’s been the best player in baseball. That’s what the MVP is.”
Is it? I’ve never seen it defined anywhere besides that it’s given to one outstanding player in each league.
I meant National League. He’s the best player in the National League, arguably in baseball.
He’s the MVP of the National League.
Still, no one said that the best player is the one that gets the mvp. There are tons of people who also consider what value they have to their teams and league.
Put Matt Kemp on any other team and he has just as much impact as any of the other candidates.
If it’s the best player on the best team, then Shane Victorino should be the MVP of the National League. He carried the Phillies this year offensively until Pence came over.
Prince Fielder and Ryan Braun are both having great years, MVP caliber years. How can you tell which one is contributing more to the team? Those are the two guys who for me, rival Kemp.
If you want to pick Victorino, by all means do so. It just shows your limited view on this since not every voter even defines the mvp the same way, let alone the same way you do.’
And you make those decisions by making a judgment call, which all of the voters have to do. That’s why it’s voted on. Otherwise there would be no vote because a limited definition of the award would just result in it being given to someone automatically. It’s not supposed to be an easy decision, especially since none of those guys are doing so well that nobody else is even in the conversation with them.
It has nothing to do with what team he’s on dude. Does the fact that the players around him suck make him less valuable? No. If he was put on the Diamondbacks he would have the exact same value as he does on the Dodgers. Same if he was put on the Astros. It isn’t the Most Valuable Player to their respective team. Its the Most Valuable Player overall.
My point is that his team has nothing to do with it.
My point was that if he was on a team like the Brewers in stead of the Dodgers, he could carry them the same way Fielder or Braun is. The fact that he isn’t on those teams shouldn’t hurt him.
Except that he isn’t on the Brewers, he plays for the Dodgers. Anything that he could’ve done for another team is just a moot point and holds very little value as there’s no way to know how he would actually do on another team versus how we would expect him to do.
wow, really? The guy is in the top four of all the significant offense metrics, something no other player can claim…period. And I believe he can also play better defense than any of the others as well. Last time I looked part of playing in the NL requires you play defense…and Most Valuable Player means taking into account playing on BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL. So don’t forget to figure in his value defensively as well.
Another thing to not forget, Kemp will easily pass 40 SB…he is already a 30-30 guy this season as well. He’ll come up a bit short of the 40-40 season he was shooting for but it won’t be for e lack of effort or talent. No other candidate is even in a 30-30 discussion.There will never be a consensus as to what MVP means but at minimum it requires a dispassionate evaluation of the numbers both at the plate and with the glove…
yes really. If you go to the Dodger’s team site, you will see that he’s listed as the starting CF. If you go to the Brewer’s site, as well as any other team in the league, you will see that Kemp doesn’t play for them. So there’s no reason to give him brownie points for what he “could” do on a good team.
By the way, it’s the MVP award and it’s voted on by baseball writers, not someone named grumpy3b. They each take things into account they think are appropriate and make their judgment calls from there, not by what you think. Everyone can look at the numbers and what they do with the glove and come up with a completely different result. Measuring a player’s performance isn’t a completely objective task, nor is it completely subjective.
Kemp’s having a great season, and he’d get my vote at this point too, but he’s not playing head and shoulders above everyone else that he’s a lock for the mvp–and whether you agree with it or not, a lot of the voters are going to consider the fact that he’s not playing for a good team as a vote against him. While some reward Kemp for doing well on a bad team, many others will give votes to Braun or Fielder because they are actually winning. Neither of them are wrong, it’s just a difference in opinion. If he had 80 homeruns and 100 stolen bases, then yes most would have to agree that he’s head and shoulders above everyone else regardless of the team he’s on. But he’s not–because relatively speaking he has several guys competing with him that are also having great seasons. If you just simply take a look around, you can see plenty of arguments to vote for one of the other guys.
Those voters have no idea what makes an MVP. They shouldn’t even have a say, it should be the players who pick these awards… not a bunch of elitists who never played the game.
I pointed this out above, too. But according to Fangraphs, Halladay has been more valuable than Kemp this year. That’s just one metric and opinions vary on it. Plus, there’s that whole objection to pitchers winning the MVP. I get that.
But Halladay is right up there and since he’s doing it for a contender, so that definitely gives Kemp some serious competition. Moreso even than Victorino, for my money.
I don’t understand the logic in removing the pitcher from the competition. I mean, yeah, they have the CY Young award, but if you use that argument, then players have the silver slugger awards and the Hank Aaron Award (I know the fans vote for that but still).
If they’re the most valuable player, they’re the most valuable player. Like, for instance, I’d love to see Verlander win it this year in the American League. Where are the Tigers without him?
I couldn’t sit here and say I’d vote for Halladay over Kemp though.
I tend to look at a “most valuable player” as one that if he wasn’t on the team the team wouldn’t finish anywhere near as good with him on the team. That said, would the Dodgers be worse without Kemp, and would the Phillies be worse without Victorino? I think in both instances the answer would have to be no.
Would the Dodger’s be worse without Kemp? Absolutely! He is practically the sole source of offense on that team.
Would the Phillies be worse without Victorino? Yes, the only difference is that the Phillies have better pitching and hitting to mitigate any loss of Victorino, therefore the impact of his loss would be lessened. But both teams would definitely suffer without those two.
Are you seriously saying the Dodgers would not be worse off without Kemp? Kemp is the Dodgers offense. Take him away and they are in last place. The Dodgers are currently in third place
I have to think you got mixed up in typing those last two sentences because they make zero sense. You don’t really think that a Rivera/Gwynn/Ethier outfield would be just as fine in terms of wins than Rivera/Gwynn in LF and then Kemp/Ethier?
“He’s been the best player in his league. That’s what the MVP is.”
No, that’s not what the MVP is, not to many people, the MVP voters in particular.
Then it’s the player with the most value to their team. Who else is going to be the offense for the Dodgers? Andre Either and his “knee injury?”
Without Kemp they’re probably in last place. Maybe fourth.
“Kershaw CY Young, maybe… but how “valuable” can Kemp be on a last place team?”
My argument is that a great player is arguably MORE valuable to a last place team than he would be on a good team. Think about it, take away a star from a team loaded with talent and there’s not that big a drop off. Take him away from a bad team, with no one else good enough to pick up the slack and the drop off could be quite large. MVP doesn’t mention anything about the team he plays for needing to have a winning record.
I get it if you look at Valuable as meaning postseason but to me Valuable means who has the biggest impact on his team in a good way. I think it’s silly to pass over great MVP candidates based on his teams record.
If its the same a-holes voting as last year he wont get it. I know im biased because the Tigers are my team but the only reason Hamilton got MVP is cause the Rangers made the playoffs and the Tigers didnt. Like I said, i know im biased but Cabrera was 10x better than Hamilton. He had like 30 more RBIs and played like 20 more games. And dont even get me started on ROY!!!
I think it had more to do with what the Rangers did with Hamilton vs. without him last year. Which was ridiculous anyway since any team is going to struggle when you take out their best offensive player.
Wow. Jeff Passan is very skilled. He is the only writer that I know of that can infuriate everyone in LA (excessive) and New York (cold and cadaverous) at the same time. Has anyone else noticed that everything he writes is negative to the extreme?
Passan is a TJ Simmers wannbe.
You obviously haven’t been a Simers reader for that long.
Passan runs circles around Simers, as would my 9 year-old son if he wrote a baseball article.
Or he is the love child of Jim Rome and Simers. Given neither is a “power top” one wonders how they decided…both seem to favor the low blow however.
“I can already hear the Philadelphia Phillies fans crying thatRoy Halladay has done nearly as well as Kershaw under much greater pressure, contributing to a much better record, but history turns their argument lame. Some of those same folks were surely cheering in 1972 when Steve Carlton won a Cy Young Award while pitching for a Phillies team that won 59 games.”
Great argument Plaschke. That really highlights the merits of Kershaw over Halladay.
There is an argument for Halladay, Lee and Hamels.
I love how he doesn’t mention that Clayton Kershaw’s top 2 era is only .02 percent lower than Roy Halladay’s and that Halladay lost a win to a rain delay, otherwise they’d be tied.
Just look at their post ASG numbers and Kershaw is better. If people want to talk about pressure and performance what better gauge than 2nd half trends?
Halladay’s 5-2 with a 2.53 ERA in 8 starts in 53.1 IP and 53 Strike Outs and 8 Walks
Kershaw’s 8-1 in 9 starts 1.32 ERA, 68 Innings, 15 walks, and 65 strikeouts
Other than ERA and Wins he hasn’t been that much better. Kershaw has a signifigantly lower opponent’s batting average against but Halladay gives up a lot of fluky base hits because of his Cutter.
Halladay’s numbers tailed off last year too (for his standards). It has mostly to do with the workload Charlie puts on him Early in the season.
I don’t see what their 2nd half trends would show though? The Dodgers are out of contention and the Phillies have been leading the division comfortably for a while. If they have a big lead, they’re not sending Halladay out there to finish a game like they would early in the year… and once they clinch he’s basically going to be on a pitch count.
I assume you are being sarcastic. Carlton won 27 games for an awful team that won 59 games total. A little different than Kershaw.
Kershaw and Kemp deserve some kind of award for showing up every day and at least trying to be professional.
He’s quoting the guy who wrote the article. Either way it’s a ridiculous comparison.
“Kershaw and Kemp deserve some kind of award for showing up every day and at least trying to be professional.”
Do you honestly think that this merits an award?! ALL baseball players should be doing this with the amount they are being paid to play a game!
Kemp deserves it. He’s been the best player in the National League this year. Winning team or not.
Obviously I’m biased, but I feel like Halladay should have the Cy Young over Kershaw. Kershaw pitches in the worst offensive division, or close to it (I don’t know the #’s off the top of my head) in one of the most pitcher friendly ball parks in baseball. His home/road splits:
Home: 10-1, ERA: 1.80, .914 WHIP
Away: 7-4, ERA: 3.17, 1.132 WHIP
Roy Halladay’s home/road splits:
Home: 8-2, ERA: 2.32, WHIP: .975
Away: 8-3, ERA: 2.64, WHIP: 1.109
Lets keep in mind, that according to most people on this site, Citizens Bank Park is a joke of a stadium. If CBP is that much of a joke, why is Roy Halladay dominating there? If you take into account that Roy Halladay pitches most of his games at Citizens Bank Park, you could make the case that he’s having the better year. If CBP is a way of diminishing Ryan Howard’s accomplishments or any other player, it should do the opposite for Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, and Cole Hamels.
I think the only thing that would keep Halladay from winning the Cy Young is Cliff Lee or Cole Hamels taking votes away from him.
My Cy Young top 5 would probably be:
1. Roy Halladay
2. Clayton Kershaw
3. Cliff Lee
4. Ian Kennedy
5. one of Tim Linceccum or Cole Hamels.
I love how people use CBP as some kind of excuse. The park doesn’t bother Halladay, Lee, Hamels or even Jamie Moyer when he pitched there. How many people know that Ryan Howard actually has more HRs on the road. It’s a joke how fans get caught up in sabermetrics.
I know. I can’t stand it. People just can’t accept Ryan Howard as one of the best sluggers in baseball for some reason.
My point is that if it’s a way of dismissing Howard than it should make what Halladay and Lee do look even better.
Uhh, because he’s not. There is plenty of data freely available to back this up by the way; you should check it out.
uhh, he is. There’s plenty of data freely available that backs that up…
But then again, Home Runs and RBI’s are irrelevant. They don’t win games or anything.
OK clearly it’s useless arguing with you. Have fun with your RBIZZ, grission and clutch hits.
Good because I don’t want to. It ends up being a war between sabermetricians and the people who don’t believe in them and its a pointless debate. Either you use them or you don’t (and most people don’t). That’s what it comes down to with Ryan Howard…
This isn’t even his topic anyway. I just used him as an example because people on this site routinely say Citizens Bank Park is a band box and used that in my argument for Halladay for Cy Young; if it helps Ryan Howard’s numbers that much like everyone claims, it would hurt Halladay’s that much. That’s it. I don’t want to debate Ryan Howard as a hitter.
Some dude on Bill Simmons’ Grantland published an article about the harsh decline of the Phillies offense, and cited Ryan Howard. I proceeded to check his stats, saw 30/100, and chuckled.
he may not be worth 25 million annually down the road, but he’s still a top 5 first baseman in baseball.
I think it has more to do with Utley and Rollins declining. This is a guy (Utley) who used to hit .300 with 30 bombs and 100 RBI’s and used to be in the category that Robinson Cano is now. Now, he’s lucky to hit .280. Jimmy, as Ruben said recently, is basically useless to the Phillies without his legs, which he really hasn’t had in years.
But yeah, he’s not worth $25 million. It’s not the stretch some people make though. He was already making $20 million and there’s no way he’d take a pay cut from that. There’s also no guarantee that the Phillies could sign Pujols or Fielder. They did a good job locking up Howard. The way people talk about him though, they act like he’s the only over paid player in baseball. I mean, he has a really good agent (same as Jeter… who’s also very much overpaid). They’re paying him for what he’s done (the MVP and the NLCS MVP) the historic September runs that lead them to the post season in 2007 and 2008… and they’re paying him to make a run Mike Schmidt’s home run record.
I can name at least 10 better first basemen.
Then do it.
My top 10:
1. Pujols
2. Agon
3. Cabrera
4. Votto
5. Texiera
6. Howard
7. Fielder
8. Konerko
9. Helton
10. Freddie Freeman
for this season?
Subtract Howard and Konerko(dh) and insert Kotchman, Hosmer, and Morse and going forward I would take all of these first baseman next season as well. I would take Carlos Santana if he was a full time first baseman too.
I really wanna know the logic with Howard before Prince.
There is none.
Ryan Howard hits more home runs, drives in more runs, and has carried a team into the playoffs. Prince Fielder wouldn’t have made the playoffs in 2008 if it wasn’t for CC Sabathia, the Mets would have won the Wild Card. Prince is a softer body than Howard and is more likely to break down. The only thing Prince does better than Howard is get on base… Ryan Howard has 6 straight 30/100 seasons. How many does Prince Have? Ryan Howard’s low batting average is a product of an over shift.
I’d love to know the logic in picking a a first baseman who’s never hit 15 home runs in a season, a rookie, and a journey man who’s had a good season and a half… over a former league MVP.
because they are better than Ryan Howard?
hahah whatever.
Saying Fielder wouldn’t have made the playoffs without CC is ludicrous, it’s like saying Howard wouldn’t have made it without Hamels or Halladay.
He would have and has. Cole Hamels missed the stretch run in 2007 and Halladay’s only been here for two years.
Well considering that CC Sabathia put the Brewers on his back in the stretch run in 2008. Prince had a factor but he wasn’t the one leading the charge. Cole Hamels never had a run like CC’s.
kershaw has put up very similar numbers to halladay and lee this season, but it is his league leading 212 k’s that separate him from the other 2. kemp in my mind would win the mvp right now, but not if the dodgers are an under .500 team. (no bias, coming from a rockies fan)
So the Cy Young award should go to the guy who strikes out the most batters? The guy who pitches in one of the most pitcher friendly ball parks in baseball?
I’m no expert, but if you put Clayton Kershaw in Citizens Bank Park instead of Dodger’s Stadium… his numbers most likely wouldn’t be as great as they are now. Put him against the Nationals and Marlins instead of the Giants and the Padres. They’d probably still be good, but would he have a 2.45 era? a 1.02 whip?
Strikeouts are pretty, but they’re not the only way to dominate.
Halladay has 191K in one less start and has a 8.7 SO/9 compared to Kershaw’s 9.6 SO/9. Not exactly a huge difference. If the numbers are that close it should go to Halladay.
“The guy who pitches in one of the most pitcher friendly ball parks in baseball? ”
Because Dodger Stadium helps him strike out batters? I mean, I know phillies fans aren’t very smart, but come on.
No. It helps his ERA and WHIP. I didn’t say anything about his strikeouts. I said is the reason that he should win the Cy Young because he strikes out more guys (barley) than Halladay or Lee? I then asked: should he win because he has the advantage of pitching in a bigger ball park? Considering the difference (still good) of his ERA and his WHIP on the road. Two questions.
I’m not really sure you read what I wrote.
Dodgers Stadium is neutral. 15/30 stadium every year.
Have you seen what Kershaw did to those teams when he pitched against them? Yeah, simmer down.
This year? 3-1 in 5 starts. His last 17 innings (against New York and Florida) were scoreless.
He didn’t face Philly or Washington.
Arizona and Colorado have better offenses than Was and Phi.. so not sure why that matters anyways
and how has he done against them compared to what he’s done against San Diego and San Fransisco?
Away from Dodgers stadium.
My division argument wasn’t even that big of a deal. I just said his ERA would be higher if he didn’t pad it by pitching against the Giants and Padres consistently. My main argument was the home/road splits. Explain that one. Just because he beat those teams in 3/5 starts doesn’t mean he would dominate them if he faced them as much as he does the Padres or the Giants.
I think the ones that deserve these awards are the ones that get the most votes.
kershaw deserves they cy young, but braun is the mvp.
Halladay deserves the Cy and Braun deserves the MVP!
John W- Are you related to Tom Verducci over at SI? He shares the same flawed perception of what the MVP award entails.
Don’t discredit a player’s performance because he’s doing it on a sub par club.
If I were to swap Kemp with Fielder or Kemp with Braun, do you think the Brewers would still be in 1st place? Of course. Do you think the Dodgers would still be counting down the days of September? Absolutely.
Simply suggesting that Kemp has not been valuable because his team sucks is ridiculous. If anything, it’s even MORE impressive that Kemp has put up those numbers despite batting in front of James “perennial non-tender candidate” Loney or –gulp– Juan Uribe.
Not to mention he plays in Dodger stadium 82 times a year. Recalling from memory, Miller Park averages .6 HR and easily a full run more per game.
He also plays a large chunk of games against the NL West, which sports an average ERA of 3.71 (excluding the Dodgers 3.64 of course), while Braun and Fielder play 65+ games against the NL Central, which sports an era of 4.15, a disparity of nearly half a run per game. (Of course, one could argue that this disparity can be chalked up to the Brewers potent offense, which simply strengthens my case that Fielder/Braun have more around them)
The list goes on and on…1.92 HR/game at NL Central ballparks vs. 1.62 HR/game at NL West ballparks, etc, etc.
Contention is such a silly criteria for MLB MVP voting, one that is entirely decided by the collective- brass, coaches, all 25 players. This isn’t the NBA where one player can carry an otherwise mediocre team into a top 4 playoff seed.
Would Braun and Fielder be any LESS valuable had Doug Melvin not pulled the trigger on the Greinke and Marcum trades, two pieces that have arguably pushed the Brewers to the next level? Of course not.
Kemp is the NL MVP, plain and simple.
Plaschke is kidding himself if he thinks Kemp will win the MVP. Kemp has good enough numbers to win it,but not over Fielder,who will probably win it,or even Braun.It’s not Kemp’s fault,it’s just not the year for him to have an MVP-type season.
Kershaw is a different story.He does have a legit chance at the CYA,and if Halladay wasn’t in the conversation,I’d say he’d be a lock to win it.Forget Hamels(dead arm issues= 20 less innings pitched) and Lee(mediocre April,May and July) and Lincecum(too many losses).This is a 2 horse race between Halladay and Kershaw.But Halladay has had only 4 bad outings(given up more than 3 earned runs).Kershaw has had 7 bad outings.Plus,Halladay is already the reigning CYA winner.And I think that,in order for Kershaw to win the award,he has to be significantly better than Halladay.And,so far,he hasn’t.In short,Halladay wins the Cy,Fielder wins the MVP,and Plaschke gets to predict the next “carmageddon”.