The Rangers are planning to extend an offer to possible free agent C.C. Sabathia, a source tells Wallace Matthews of ESPN New York. Texas will "throw a boatload of money" at Sabathia, according to Matthews' source, though this unidentified person believes Sabathia will ultimately remain with the Yankees.
Sabathia can opt out of the four years and $92MM remaining on his Yankee contract and is widely expected to do so in search of a longer-term and more expensive deal. It has also been expected that Sabathia will sign a new contract to stay in New York due to both his love of the city and the Yankees' need for a top-flight starter, but given the number of high-payroll teams looking for pitching, Sabathia will certainly get plenty of attention on the open market. Beyond the Rangers and Yankees, it wouldn't be surprising to see teams like the Marlins, Nationals or Red Sox check in on the big southpaw.
As Matthews notes, Sabathia fits Nolan Ryan's preferred model of an inning-eating "workhorse pitcher" and would be a more-than-fine replacement for C.J. Wilson, who could leave via free agency himself this winter. Sabathia would give Texas the unquestioned ace pitcher the club has lacked since Cliff Lee departed to Philadelphia last offseason.
source: sabathia’s agent
The fact it came from a writer in New York writer adds to the creditability of your claim.
You copied that from the ESPN article.
i don’t think i’ve ever actually read an espn article. that’s why i love this site
Same goes for the Globe, NESN, CSNNE, and everything from WEEI not written by Speier.
Tampering?
nah! just rumors.
I dont think its tampering unless the rangers have direct contact with CC or his agent.
texas throws a boatload of money while the yankees throw a yacht a boat and a boatload of money calling it now
and chimichangas
chicken or beef? this is important
a plethora of both
0, absolute 0 chance Jeffrey Luria gets involved (realistically) in the bidding for Sabathia when on top of his entire payroll is in the 60m range for 2011, he has to lock up his only Ace that he can count on being available.. Anibel Sanchez to a LT deal or risk losing him after the season.
Do you mean Jeffrey Loria? What does the Florida Marlins owner have to do with this story?
It seems as though the title/content of the topic has been switched. The title originally showed several teams believed to be bidding on Loria and there was an article that showed Fish and “Loria” as a chancey bidder for Sabathia.
I don’t think this is a great idea. I think C.C is due to begin his decline now that he is on the wrong side of thirty and has the body of an obese walrus. If they could get Wilson back, I think that would be ideal.
Have you seen CJ in the postseason?
“did you see that player that one time in that one situation? clearly not talented”
You can defend CJ all you want, but the truth is the truth. He’s been bad to aweful in each of his 6 postseason games. Is that what you call an ace? Someone who struggles to keep his team in the game when it matters most?
he was good in 2 of those 6 starts
i say check out the fact that he’s got a top 7 FIP- (adjusted for league and ballpark and scaled to league average – like ERA+) in the AL over the last 2 seasons, 78 to sabathia’s 76
you say “check out these 4 games”
to each his own, but i’ll err on the side of the sample seventeen times the size of yours
I never said he wasn’t great during the regular season, but since when has the regular season mattered more than the postseason?
If he can’t hold teams at bay in the playoffs is he worth that kind of money to you?
you cannot conclude that he “cannot hold teams at bay in the playoffs” based on 4 games; that is the fact that is escaping you
For how difficult it is for a team to make it to this level, you bet your @ss that can be assumed after 4-5 bad games. That is plenty for CJ to show that he is capable of being the ace of this staff. I love the Rangers and I will defend most of them, but there’s only so much evidence you need that a guy isn’t what you need him to be in the playoffs.
by your own logic, the ultimate test would be the world series. he has pitched one game in the WS:
6.0 IP 3 H 2 ER 2 BB 4 SO
he’s proven his ability in the ALDS as well:
6.1 IP 2 H 2 BB 7 SO
but despite all that and despite 2 years (almost 70 starts) of excellent pitching, because he’s never had a good game in the ALCS and got hit around a few times, you conclude he can’t keep his team in playoff games and is therefore not a “true” #1
do you operate the same way with position players? your fantasy rosters would look pretty weird
didn’t hit to his career slash-line in 4 games? NOT A STAR
4 games for a hitter is different than 4 games for a pitcher and you know it.
that doesn’t change the point and you — actually i’m not sure if you do know it
in light of obsessions’ comment, are you going to declare sabathia not-an-ace? he’s had about twice as many bad playoff starts as wilson
somehow i expect you’ll think he’s still an ace
I’m not going to defend CC’s bad starts in the playoffs. I’m far from a CC fan, but he is more proven.
amazing powers of rationalization
Remember in the ’04 ALCS when Pedro had a 6.23 ERA? Yeah, Pedro wasn’t an Ace.
Still, fair to say that his shortcomings in the post season, especially recently, are going to be a factor in the decision making process of the Rangers. If anything, they’ll use it to bargain his price down in talks with his agent. Other teams may also.
Educated fans can make the distinction, but those playoff games mean a lot to owners/GMs, especially the notorious “W” stat.
I know that’s not the argument, I’m just saying…
Didn’t he shut the Rays out for 7 innings last year? Didn’t he pitch 7 strong innings against the Yankees in the ALCS before the bullpen totally blew it? Didn’t he go 7 strong in Game 2 of the World Series before the bullpen blew it?
C.J. Wilson’s postseason ERA: 4.76.
C.C. Sabathia’s postseason ERA: 4.81
In fact, 2009 aside, Sabathia’s been absolute garbage in the playoffs in his career.
You make a good point.
Both of them have been better than Verlander. What do you think of him?
That he’s garbage and the Tigers should trade him for a utility infielder.
I think you missed my actual point, which admittedly may not have been clear in so brief a statement. What I was getting at is that small sample size playoff pitching against what generally factors out to be the best lineups in the MLB in a given season is an absolutely terrible guage for a pitcher’s actual value.
Heck, the Sox would’ve made the World Series in 2003 if not for Pedro Martinez, he’s still probably the greatest pitcher I’ve seen in my lifetime.
Let’s be fair. C.C. has the physique of a regular walrus.
You’re right. I wouldn’t want to insult the walruses out there reading MLBTR.
So is any other team looking for a top of the rotation pitcher…
I believe 30 teams are looking for a top of the rotation pitcher…
We’re not.
– F. McCourt
If that’s the case, please trade the Rangers Kershaw! LOL
……I’m sad now.
I know the Cubs will be looking for atleast 2 starting pitchers and they will have the money to throw around.
I would assume the Cubs will be going hard after probably 2 starting pitchers. They do have money to spend too with all the money coming off their payroll this offseason.
There’s a better chance the Yankees wind up with CC Sabathia and CJ Wilson than the Rangers getting Sabathia.
Does seem strange this comes out when there was little to no talk about signing CJ to a long term deal this season. But if the Rangers are aggresive enough, and win the WS then they could sign CC. Hell it might not be out of the realm of possibility they end up two of CC/CJ/Yu (i admit it may be unlikely but if they see resigning Hamilton a long shot then it may happen as an issurance policy)
Re-signing Hamilton isn’t a longshot. The Rangers will definitely extend his contract. Darvish will not pitch here though.
really? I hear that Arlington has a large Japanese community/culture.
YES! A Rangers fan that can comprehend the whole idea that the Rangers are NOT going to land every single pitcher they want.
I don’t think the Rangers want Darvish all that much. And yes Arlington has grown in regards to japanese population, but that doesn’t make the Rangers want to spend $100MM on an un-proven guy (MLB level).
Not to mention a lot of other cities/states that have Japanese populations too.
Jon Daniels (not a scout, the GM) went to Japan to watch one of his starts. I’d say there’s interest.
Of course he went there to scout him, but it’s not like he was the only one there. Darvish has been scouted heavily for 2 years.
Of course he went there to scout him, but it’s not like he was the only one there. Darvish has been scouted heavily for 2 years.
Yes, but how many actual GMs have gone over there to watch him?
It doesn’t hurt to do your homework on someone, but do you think the Rangers want to give up that kind of money for the unknown? Or would they rather sign someone who’s been successful here?
I don’t think that factors into their decision making too much. They have one of the best scouting and development teams in the league. I’m sure they give a guy a grade and determine what they think he’s worth. Not to mention Bob Simpson and Ray Davis actually have money to spend unlike Tom Hicks. They just gave a much more unknown commodity in Leonys Martin $15mm, so I’d say they’re more willing than they have been in the past to make these kinds of gambles. If he grades out as a $100mm guy or whatever the total cost to sign Darvish is going to be (posting fee + contract) to them then they’ll go for it if the opportunity presents itself.
Yes, but how many actual GMs have gone over there to watch him?
I don’t think the Rangers are high on Wilson long term, especially considering the cost. I’ve sensed that as well that they’ll be holding the door for him as he departs after the season is over. It is a little strange that there hasn’t been much said about their desire to resign him.
It’s possible. CJ is the really the only other ‘ace’ on the market this offseason and if he’s looking for something like 6 years $100 million, the Rangers might as well spend a bit more money to lock up the better CC, who is also younger I believe.
I’m a ridiculously big Ranger fan…and even I know CJ isn’t an ace.
I like CJ a lot, but agree he’s not a top tier ace. Very solid #2 though. But considering he’s pretty much the only SP of his caliber on the market this year, coming after years where Lacky, Beckett, Zito all got huge long term teals…he has a shot to get way overpaid. Which is why I think the Rangers should go after CC instead.
I agree with you. I’m so dissapointed in CJ. All 6 of his starts in the postseason he’s nearly taken us out of the game. Based on his postseason I do not see the Rangers re-signing him due to another team offering him more. I will say that if they don’t re-sign him though that they will need to find a way to replace him. I just think CC is out of the question. He’ll get too much money and too many years for the Rangers taste.
Check CC’s postseason stats before his 2009 run with the Yankees. Quite poor as well.
Whoa — I don’t doubt you, but I didn’t think CJ was older than CC. That changes a lot, if he is. For some reason I thought of him as (considerably?) younger.
cj is younger by a few months
…and less talented by a few levels.
That is correct but have to keep in mind that C.J. has thrown a significantly less amount of innings than C.C.
I get why people bring that up, but when you get into your mid 30s is it really going to matter that you threw less innings?
Mid 30s? Were talking about two 31 yr olds. Both these guys have a lot left in the tank and when looking at giving one of the two a 5-6 yr contact of possibly 100+ mil then I’m taking C.J. because C.C. is far more likely to start to decline due to innings pitched. Also, I’m not the only one who’s afraid of C.C.’s size and that interfering with his performance as he ages. This being said, C.C. has shown he can put up Cy Young-esk numbers year in and year out. Can C.J. prove he will continue to succeed and elevate his game to this ‘ace’ status. We will have to see.
And in your post if your talking about both of these guys say 5 yrs from now when their in the mid 30’s you shouldn’t be worrying about that because Texas isn’t going give either guy anymore than 6 yrs, so towards the end of the contract is when your theory comes into play: “is it really going to matter that you threw less innings.” But as of right now innings pitched definitely plays a role.
I was reffering to the fact that they will both be over 36 after long term deals.
So your philosophy is pay them now, hope they give you good stuff for about 3 years, then eat their salaries when they’re older and not performing to their contracts?
That’s exactly why they let Cliff walk.
they didn’t let cliff walk. he rejected both the rangers and yankees
I meant that’s why they didn’t offer a 7th year. I guess I have to be extremely literal.
When did I ever say give you good stuff for 3 years then decline? I never did. When the contracts are up when their 36 that’s when innings pitched doesn’t play as big of role and your theory stated above comes into play.
Mid 30s? Were talking about two 31 yr olds. Both these guys have a lot left in the tank and when looking at giving one of the two a 5-6 yr contact of possibly 100+ mil then I’m taking C.J. because C.C. is far more likely to start to decline due to innings pitched. Also, I’m not the only one who’s afraid of C.C.’s size and that interfering with his performance as he ages. This being said, C.C. has shown he can put up Cy Young-esk numbers year in and year out. Can C.J. prove he will continue to succeed and elevate his game to this ‘ace’ status. We will have to see.
And in your post if your talking about both of these guys say 5 yrs from now when their in the mid 30’s you shouldn’t be worrying about that because Texas isn’t going give either guy anymore than 6 yrs, so towards the end of the contract is when your theory comes into play: “is it really going to matter that you threw less innings.” But as of right now innings pitched definitely plays a role.
I’d agree CJ is an ace, but I don’t know how you could possibly say Sabathia isn’t.
I’m saying CC is an ace, and CJ is NOT one.
I misinterpreted, I think they both are, but I think CJ is among the lower half of acedom.
Most people CJ as Half the pitcher CC is (no pun intended) but looking at CJs home road splits he had ‘ace’ numbers away from Texas.
Rangers are ready to throw an A-Rod level contract toward Sabathia. Too soon?
How smart would the Rangers be in announcing their intention to bid big for a particular player before the time to actually make deals? This one smacks of a phony leak or blowing up a comment a Rangers guy said when asked the question: “Would you guys like to have CC in the rotation?” “Sure, I guess…”
It is a great “leak” that helps drive the price up for one of their competitors and possibly draws their attention while they go after a different FA target. Also the leak is great because they can’t get charged with tampering.
Absolutely no credibility whatsoever. Jon Daniels doesn’t let anything get out. Whatever he’s planning, we’ll all know about it when he’s ready for us to (which is usually once pen has been put to paper).
How about the Rangers worry about resigning Wilson before they get Cliff Lee’d, again.
CJ isn’t Cliff Lee so I don’t think we’ll get Cliff Lee’d.
Maybe the Yankees should worry about losing Magilla Gorilla.
I would like the get “Lee’d” again, does it mean we get another Adrian Beltre and Mike Napoli. And get (one game away) to the WS again. That’ll work, bye bye CJ.
What about the Cubs? Epstein’s got almost $30 mil coming off the books, + another $12 1/2 without ARam, and over $40 mil after 2012. He’ll want to be aggressive and they’ll let him. I think they’ll bid strong for Sabathia, Darvish, Wilson, Buehrle, etc until they get one, in addition to going after Pujols or Prince.
Id say we could either go after a 1bman or a ace. Personally none of these guys work for the cubs.
C.C.- hes just putting on a show, yankes are going to re sign him, tho his family did like it in Milwaukee, which is Chicago north.
C.J.- i like the guy but i feel like he is going to pull a dempster, coming from the pen to becoming a all start Sp to being an average #3.
Darvish- un proven to the mlb, looking for a pay day, do the cubs want another Fukodome situation?
Buehrle- Life time white sox, wants to pitch in St.Louis… Hello 2 rivals of the cubs!
Id love to see him in cubbie blue but its not going to happen. I recall him saying he will never pitch for the Cubs a few years back.
Albert- He wants to get paid, he wants to be around for another 10 years. Sure he will kick but the first few years but he will slow down, some ppl are looking at his inguries this year as a sign of slowing down.
Prince- People praise him, i dont. Sure he would bring power from the left side, but his Defence will deteriorate, which u need with Starlin and possibly Aram on the left side of the diamond in 2012. Also his Body is suited for a Dh in a few years.
Now those guys sound good but are they really what they need moving forward? i dont think so.
in other news…the yankees are preparing to bid for cj wilson
Should read: Yankees Preparing To Bid For Everyone
Not Drew Henson…
The Jets are looking for some O-Line depth, don’t be surprised to see them throw money at him too.
I don’t see why this is being doubted. Didn’t the Rangers offer Lee like 140M? If i were Texas i’d rather have CC over CJ, easily.
I just have doubts for a couple of reasons. One, the Yankees will outspend the Rangers on any contract for a reasonable length and cost. So unless CC is dead set on playing in Dallas, the money won’t be a factor. Second is that you have several key position players with arbitration raises and upcoming free agency in the next couple of years: Hamilton, Cruz, Napoli, and Kinsler, along with what you’re paying Beltre and Young. If they backloaded something after Young’s contract expires, then maybe, but getting CC really wouldn’t make financial sense for the Rangers.
They’ll drive the price up on CC to possibly take the Yankees out of the bidding for CJ if he re-signs.
How much is enough? Evidently, these players don’t care what it costs a father to take his kids to a game. I’ve stopped watching.
Do you seriously believe if tomorrow the players agreed to cut their salaries in half that the owners would cut the ticket prices?
Prices unfortunately will only trend upward and never downward (unless attendance really starts to plummet). Revenue continues to go up, owners have a bit more money to pay players, owners hike ticket prices to cover the extra expenses… it’s all a catch 22.
why should they? it’s not like their pay is based on profit-sharing.
Ok, seriously can we all just abolish the word “ace”. It muddles everything, its undefinable and looking at the postseason, how have “aces” like Verlander, CC, Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Greinke and Price fared: varied degrees of success. The most lock-down starter has been Doug Fister, is he an “ace”, Matt Cain didn’t allow a run last postseason, is he an “ace”, Kenny Rogers carried the Tigers to the WS in 2006 allowing 0 runs in 23 IP. Rogers was never an “ace” either.
The point is an “ace” is really a nebulous pitcher at the top of the rotation, which is what I think teams should truly go after, TORPs. All the two lettered starters available this winter(CC, CJ and Yu) are TORPs. You shouldn’t get all bent out of shape ranking pitchers, because if they are all TORPs, they’re gonna give you similar outputs. They will not swing a WS trophy for you single-handely, no one is that good.
Cliff Lee was clamored as the key the to WS for the Phillies, $120 mil, guarantees nothing.
my guess is that we all agree with you but will continue to use the word ace anyway
this. you don’t get rid of words that have been used traditionally in a sport just because people screw up the meaning of the word
I understand “ace” will be used forever, but its very misleading and pointless, to debate who and who isn’t an ace. That is until a sbaermetrics mind comes up with a way to define a level of ace.
unnecessary. the ace of a staff is the best starting pitcher on said staff. that’s not to say that one staff’s ace would not be the #3 of another superior staff. it’s all relative.
That’s what I’m says it’s completely relative. Some teams have more than one ace (phillies) and some have none (astros). If Cj is the best starting pitcher on the Rangers, then a more accurate term would be #1 starter.
Ace is a term for pitchers at an elite level (an undefined high level). Just because you start opening day, doesn’t mean you’re an ace. It means you’re #1 on you’re team.
“Ace” obviously derives from card playing, and when you deal the cards, does everyone get an ace. No. Some get more than one (phillies) some get none (astros)
The question is: Will Sabathia fit in the “boatload” of money?
“As Matthews notes, Sabathia fits Nolan Ryan’s preferred model of an inning-eating ‘workhorse pitcher’ and would be a more-than-fine replacement for C.J. Wilson, who could leave via free agency himself this winter.”
There’s all sorts of wrong with this sentence…but at least they got the eating part right.
Ryan is insane. He thinks for one minute he can swim with the big fishes? He can’t compete with the Yankee , Phillies or Red Sox payroll.
This is just gamesmanship. Texas know the Yankees will offer money to Wilson. They NEED to retain Wilson . They are hoping for a hometown discount , so they are using this as leverage . They are trying to tell Wilson, “Hey if you leave, we will go after CC”.
Cashman already said and so did the Steinbrenners, that #1 priority is keeping CC.
Besides in the winter of 2008, Texas made an offer. CC turned it down . Why? Because he did not want to pitch half of his starts in 120 degree weather..
Why they did not build a stadium down there with a dome is a real mystery.
And as far as CC ‘s weight is concerned , all you people who are posting insults, take a good look in the mirror. I doubt most of you are in that great shape either.
You guys need to come up with some better Sabathia jokes. I didn’t laugh at one, this time.