The Nationals, Red Sox, Marlins, Blue Jays, Royals, Tigers, Mariners, Yankees and Orioles are among the teams still looking to add one or more starting pitchers this offseason, according to Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com. Here are more details on the market for starting pitching:
- The Red Sox are “in on everybody,” Knobler reports. Peter Gammons of MLB Network confirms that the Red Sox are still looking for starters (Twitter link).
- Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports makes the case that the Mariners should trade Felix Hernandez this offseason, but Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik disagrees. “I still say, as I’ve said all along, we’ve still got the best young pitcher in the game, and that’s pretty darned good,” Zduriencik said. Rosenthal pointed to the prospects the Padres obtained for Mat Latos and the fact that the AL West has become tougher this offseason.
- The Giants aren’t looking for a free agent to replace Jonathan Sanchez, but are interested in adding pitchers who are willing to accept minor league contracts, tweets Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle.
- The Orioles, Red Sox, Blue Jays, Rockies, Tigers and Rangers are among the teams that have expressed some interest in Jair Jurrjens, according to Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com. The Braves have suggested they won’t trade the right-hander within their division.
OMG if I see one more post listing off the teams that have expressed interest in Jurrjens and Prado I might burn something. That little snippet about not trading in the division is new though, that’s a start lol
if you burn something, can you make it Alex Rodriguez? it would do us alllll a favor
If you’re a Sox fan, you’d want A-Rod to be alive. The dude is costing the Yankees more than $20MM per year through 2017 and his body is already falling apart.
but if A-Rod was disfigured and unable to play the Yankees would still have to pay him, and he’d be giving them literally 0 production. I guess it’s true I want him alive so it hurts them (I thank God every day that Bud Selig vetoed the A-Rod-to-Boston trade back in late ’03…I am convinced ’04 and ’07 would have been different had he been wearing “BOSTON” on his jersey.)
was disfigured ya you might want to get some help
I’m sorry? are you implying he is ALREADY disfigured, and I need help (i.e. eyesight checked) or that I need help (i.e. psychiatrist/therapy/etc)?
Lets put it this way is the following sentence normal? Hey you know what would be great if cherington signed ortiz to a 3 yr deal and on his way home ortiz drove home and got into a car accident paralyzing both!!! Boy would that make things easier for the yankees.
from a yankee fan’s perspective that’s perfectly normal, but I guess I see your point. Just don’t like A-Rod personally. how about if I replace “disfigured” with “permanant case of amnesia” or “perpetually physically unable to play”?
No, it isn’t “perfectly normal,” it’s at best cruel-spirited and at worst deranged.
I hate A-Rod as a player too, but to wish bodily harm is rotten to begin with, but disfiguring and crippling trauma is just disgusting.
you need help if you wish harm on anyone. I don’t like A Rod, but I would never wish him harm.
Both our fanbases can be a bit over the top sometimes. I’m not sure the rivalry would be what it is without some of the more colorful elements. That being said, this dude needs help.
Getting the mvp in 07 would undoubtedly hurt the redsox no ifs and or buts about that
yeah and how did A-Rod do in the ’04 ALCS to the ’07 ALDS in the postseason? i dont care if you hit 100 homers in the regular season…if you turtle in the spotlight of the playoffs (as he has done every year since ’04 with the exception of 2009 when they won it all and 2008 when they failed to qualify for postseason play)…plus that contract is a 20,000 pound anchor weighing the yanks down. he’ll be over 40 (could be already, actually…you never know) and they’ll be paying him like he’s 27 and in his prime…my basic point is the regular season mvp is all well and good but he’s been generally pretty awful in the playoffs.
He’s hit 100 home runs in a year before? Wow! If A-Rod can stay healthy, he can produce. If he’s healthy, he’s still one of the best players in baseball. Unfortunately, he can’t stay healthy.
lol. funny. i was exaggerating for effect.
Ya but when ortiz puts up the same exact postseason numbers as arod has he’s great right?
we can argue this point all night. but I will always believe the Sox not getting A-Rod was the best thing to happen to the franchise in, well, 86 years. remember, the sox would have lost Manny in that deal, the eventual ’04 WS MVP. if A-rod is on the sox in 04 maybe he slaps the ball out of Kevin Brown’s hand and karma comes after the sox like it did the yankees? it’s just impossible to know for sure. but I didn’t want A-Rod then (believe it or not) and I am sure glad we didn’t get him now.
You forget that A-Rod back then might have been worth it. Remember, you wouldn’t have him now. Only my Yankees’ front office could F up and resign him to that huge deal after he opted out.
while that may be true, i still view is as dodging a metaphorical bullet; A-Rod is washed up at “Thirty-five”
A-Rod would have to have some connections to lie about his age, considering he was born in New York City in 1975. I know it was a rough city then, but something tells me he’s got a pretty valid birth certificate and social security number.
Do I smell a Luke Scott “where’s the birth certificate” joke brewing?
But i just love when people bring up postseason stats like they mean anything just look at this postseason cruz has a terrible first round porbably one of the worst in history if his tampa beat them he becomes a goat but nope how he’s going to be remembered and it’s all because some fans are too stupid to realize how this game works
the postseason is where legends are made, though. Look at Reggie Jackson, “Mr. October.” he is a hall of famer! and part of his legend is his prowess when the games were for all the marbles. and I disagree cruz wouldn’t have been a goat if the rays beat the rangers in the first round. if anything he’s a goat now for that dropped ball in game 6 of the fall classic. and i really don’t appreciate you calling me stupid, I’m trying to have a polite conversation about my favorite sport (baseball), can we keep it civil? btw, i am guessing you’re a yankees fan?
Odd that Reggie Jackson is “Mr. October” with a career line of .278/.358/.527 and A-Rod is this horrible choker with a .277/.386/.498 line in the postseason.
Oh well, let’s just forget a few postseason series (“aside from 2009 A-Rod SUCKS!!!11”) so make it look more lopsided.
And based off that logic arod should be a postseason legend his stats are good enough. I also dont understand the talk of cility from a guy who just wished a father of two to be burned or disafigured because it screw over a baseball team
He’s made 85 comments on weei. Reasoning is a skill beyond his grasp.
yeah, yeah, yeah. you’re hilarious.
Know what is hilarious? You see that guy named DickHarden posting?
typical sick twisted Sox fan
Equally rationale, well done.
I know the brits like to add extra “u”s to things. Now, is it the Aussies that like to add extra “e”s?
Typo, actually. And the Aussies use the “Queen’s English,” so they do the “u” thing just like England and Canada. I don’t think they throw “e’s” into things.
Obviously. I was just trying to subtly call your attention to it and make a joke. Admittedly it wasn’t a good one.
yeah because when I went to New Yankee Stadium for a game and someone
asked me “how bout those yankees” and I responded “Actually I like the
Sox” the fact that the (WOMAN!) proceeded to spit on me, called me a
‘dirty mexican’ dumped her beer on my head, and encouraged her jackwagon
frinds to throw THEIR beers at me and spent the entire rest of the game spewing obscenities, threats, and incoherent nonsense at me, that
really made the yankee fan base look good. no, really. and don’t tell
me, ‘well thats what you get for admitting your a sox fan in yankee
stadium,’ because that’s bull. you shouldn’t expect to be physically and
emotionally assaulted over a sporting event. and so what if I want
a-rod to get hurt? I didnt say I want him to get in a massive car crash,
I merely want him to trip over his own feet and shatter his leg, or
something similar. I don’t want the man dead, i just want him to GO AWAY
so I don’t have to see him. my original wording was unfortunate and brought upon partially by a desire to be humorous (poor humor, I admit), and I will ammend my original remark: “If you burn something, can you make it MetLife Stadium?”
More like more than $30MM.
Funny how he falls apart only after all the steroid allegations.
Did you read the Jon Heyman link? It’s pretty entertaining considering he concluded with teams are weary about trading for pitching with ATL considering their record, indicating that ATL knows exactly when to trade a pitcher and get the most value. I’m assuming he’s referring to Vazquez (to NYY), Denny Neagle (to CIN), and maybe a handful of others.
When are the Red Sox NOT in on everybody?
Never. They are a very open-minded club and always seem to treat the free agent/trade market in a very unorthodox way. Noone even bothers asking Red Sox hot stove insiders about predictions anymore because they all quit their jobs from being wrong all the time.
When it’s not an area of need/area that could be improved, which is rare.
Fielder is an example.
Wow, something about Felix not talking about the Yankees! ZOMG LOL LAWL Oh wait…read the article and that is incorrect 🙁
Hernandez for Swaggerty straight up
the reason the mariners will be all over this is because, lets be honest, who doesn’t want someone with the last name swaggerty on their team?
I do!! 🙂
Hernandez is not getting moved, why can’t people stop with the rumors? Of course, everyone would want him on their team, but he is staying in Seattle for at least one more year.
Because the Angels and Rangers are so much better than the Mariners that they aren’t going to compete any time soon.
It will be years before the Mariners or A’s compete. But trading Hernandez right now wouldn’t be very wise. Look at the 2007 Rays and the 2008 Rays, a lot can change.
Not quite following, the major differences were acquiring Jackson, Garza, and Bartlett through separate minor trades and signing a bunch of relievers while letting Longo take over third base. I don’t see the Rays trading Upton, Crawford, Pena, Kazmir, or Shields who were the big pieces of their team. The only thing which comes close is trading Delmon Young who did not have the best year in ’07.
Just not following how this compares to the Mariners who have an ace any team would want at the top of their staff and the benefits of trading him? Personally I say the M’s are better off holding onto him and trying to build around Felix and Ackley and signing Fielder.
Hamilton/Cruz/Beltre/Kinsler/Napoli are all aging or health concerns and I’d take my chances in a race with Anaheim if I was Seattle, or at least try to become a wild card contender and ya know, make Felix WANT to stay when his contract runs out.
I think you missed his point. He was saying the Mariners SHOULDN’T trade away Hernandez because of how suddenly a team can turn around. If Ackley continues to blossom and they make some smart trades, they could get into the Wild Card race soon enough.
I agree. It’s foolish for the M’s to trad away King Felix. He’s the on player you can build around to make a winner. Trade him away and the M’s become a team instantly out of contention for likely years and years to come.
So that means they should never have good players? Felix is a generational talent, the type you build around, not trade for building blocks.
If they’re not going to take advantage of the fact that they possess a generational talent, which, besides 2009 they haven’t showed they’re willing to do so, there’s really no reason to not cash him in for pieces, especially since they have what, 3-4 years to find the right deal?
I’m not saying it’s what they should do. The original post I replied to started out as: “Hernandez is not getting moved, why can’t people stop with the rumors?” to which I stated why the rumors “won’t go away.”
It makes complete sense for Felix Hernandez’s name to be mentioned in trade rumors. Whether he gets dealt or not, it’s always going to be speculated until he either gets moved or the Mariners put a winning team around him in the next year or two.
I don’t care if they trade him or not and nor am I advocating they do trade him. I’m just stating the reasons why people keep starting rumors that he’s going to be traded.
My post said he won’t be moved for at least one year. So why even bother talking about it? That’s like saying “the Reds are thinking about moving John Smith, first overall pick in the 2014 draft.”
I know, I read your post. I responded to the part where you said “why can’t people stop with the rumors.”
Given the fact that the Angels and Rangers have made some serious additions this offseason to separate themselves, rumors about King Felix are to be expected, despite the fact that the team’s made it clear they’re not trading him.
You have to take into account the fan base aspect. Getting rid of Hernandez would hurt the M’s ownership in the profit category. Therefore…until another face of the team shows up….he will remain a Mariner. The realistic fan in me agrees that since we now have the Yankees and the Red Sox on the west coast and we aren’t even close to being able to compete with them it might be wise to make a trade provided some other team is willing to give what he’s actually worth in a trade.
This site wouldn’t exist without those rumors.
The Yankees really don’t have the players in positions the Mariners need to make any sort of trade realistic. The Blue Jays, on the other hand, do. Gose, either d’Arnaud or Arencibia, Lawrie, and Drabek get it done pretty easily and then Felix could chew through the Yankees and Red Sox all the time.
The Yankees have just as much to offer the Mariners if they wanted to, if not more. Montero, Banuelos, Betances, Nunez, Nova, Williams, Bichette, Romine, Sanchez, Austin, Tejada, and Santana. The Yankees, if they wanted to, would land him before the Jays would. It would just be stupid on their part.
Yes, they do. Better than the Jays. It would just be stupid if the Yankees gave them up for Hernandez. Nunez, Montero, Banuelos, Betances, Romine, Sanchez, Bichette, Tejada, Austin, Williams, and Santana.
Nobody with any sense in any of baseball offices actually believes the Yankees have more to offer than the Jays.
Is it possible the Yankees would be willing to part with more than the Jays? Certainly. Do the Yankees have better regarded prospects to offer? No, and it’s not even close.
If they don’t, then why is their farm system ranked higher?
Overrated hyped prospects? Remember when Russ Davis was a star?
So, the Yankees’ prospects are over hyped, but the Jays’ aren’t? Stop talking baseball.
Sportswriters/ESPN/etc. live on ratings. Writing to the favor of the biggest baseball market makes financial sense to everyone.
Come on. If you don’t know much about baseball, that’s fine. But don’t make up stupid excuses like that.
Okay, how about Betances not being good? How about Nova only getting wins because his team scores for him? How about Montero not being about to play defense? How about a lot of prospects in the low minors who could very easily bust are are simply projectable? How about players with the exact same sorts of stats in the minors for other teams being overlooked completely? Did you know Alex Liddi put up better numbers all around than Middlebrooks from the Red Sox? And yet Middlebrooks is pretty highly regarded while Liddi is completely overlooked! East Coast Bias.
Did you know Toronto is on the east coast or that liddi plays in the pcl?
Yes, and I think you missed my point. Liddi plays in the PCL and gets overlooked. Middlebrooks is in the Sox system and is hyped. They’re the same player. Also, the East Coast Bias should be renamed as Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies bias. That’s what people generally mean when they say East Coast Bias.
Liddi also hit .259 and struck out 170 times with a lower OPS than Middlebrooks.
LiddiplayedinAAAallseasonandhad200moreplateappearances.Soyeah.There’syourdifferenceinbothstrikeoutcountingstatsandratestats.
I think you missed my point the pcl is an extreme hitters league
AndyetLiddifacedmoreadvancedpitchingforafullseason!
“Okay, how about Betances not being good?” This too funny just stop it’s clear you know nothing about prospects and how did the hell the nova’s runs support lead to a fip of 4?
Thats nice and all but espn has nothing to do with prospects. Besides it be a weird conspiracy considering the yankees werent rated this high two yrs ago and the mets arent rated high at all. Just face it the yankees have a great system arguably better than the jays.
yea i dont get peoples need to split hairs over which top 5 system is better.
the rankings are made so that fans will read BA and ESPN and whatever other website’s articles. that is their sole purpose. they can give you a general idea of which systems are good and bad, but it is almost pointless to compare systems of similar value.
there are thousands of sources of human error that go into these rankings. thus they are a guide and not the law.
Yankees might have a top 10 system…maybe
Blue Jays have a top 5 system, easily.
Yankees have a good top 5 or 6 prospects, blue jays have a really good top 10 or 15 prospects, just think about that…
You care to name these prospects? 15 sounds impressive.
(from John Sickels at MinorLeagueBaseball(
Travis D’Arnaud, Jake Marisnick, Noah Snydergaard, Daniel Morris, Deck McGuire, Drew Hutchinson, Anthony Gose, Dwight Smith Jr., Adonys Cardona, AJ Jimenez, Aaron Sanchez, Asher Wojeblahblah,
and Adeiny Hechevarria (if his bat can improve a little)
ok, so 13 instead of 15, but I left a couple off
You realize how easy it is to make a list like that right?
Justin Nicolino,
Carlos Perez
D’arnaud, Gose, Marisnick, Perez, Jimenez, Mcguire, Nicolino, Syndergaard, Norris, Hutchinson, Sanchez,
thats just off the top of my head.. but I’m sure a Yankees fan can do the same.. but the depth of the jays system is undeniable
ESPN? lol
But yes I agree, the Jays system is better, but not by much.
Who says their system is rated higher?
yah exactly..
Jays farm system takes a big leap next year, even with the likes of Drabek faltering.
not a lot of big names but really deep..
Yanks do have a good farm system though. Built more on big names than depth. Montero out ranks any jays prospects.
Maybe his bat does. I’d rank d’Arnaud higher myself. And if we’re going on guys who’ve spent some time in the majors like Montero, I’d take Lawrie over him any day.
Well Lawrie can play a position, and so far he’s shown he can play it above average so I agree..
but if we are talking offense, Montero’s it
I don’t know. I’m pretty high on Lawrie’s bat. I’ve been watching him through the minor leagues for a couple years as he’s developed. I might take his bat over Montero’s as well. Time will tell.
Of course Gary sanchez has a higher ceiling than arnoud but dont let that get in your way
According to who? Sanchez didn’t even place in the midseason top 50, d’Arnaud was in the top thirty.
scout dot com, compared each others teams catching depth. But anyway it’s mostly because he was ranked higher last and that i feel his midseason ranking were based and a few poor months and attitude problems which he made up for in the 2nd half.
Oh god, upon further investigation, they’ve got our top outfield prospect as a guy who went down for brain surgery almost two years ago. Who put these things together? Lars Anderson is considered the twelfth best first base prospect in the MLB by them. LARS ANDERSON!!!
If you have that site bookmarked, delete it now before it spreads.
It’s different for every team pinstripe is its own separate site with a real writer who will be taking over the boston section soon enough.
So a site called Pinstripe Plus is handling a bulk of the duties then?
Sounds totally free of potential bias to me!
I’ll stick with BA, thanks.
Where’d you see that stuff? Not doubting you, just couldn’t find any of that info in their site.
Went to their top prospect list and organized by MLB affiliate.
No i dont really get how it works the writer/scout i guess will go and write for the boston section of the site he’s not actually a yankee i think, but whatever point taken, and this is probably going to have to be the end of this disscussion disquis is terrible
I read up a bit and the bulk of AL East coverage is effectively handled by a guy named Patrick Teale, whose day job is writing for Pinstripe Plus, a Yankee magazine. He makes his living covering the Yankees.
You’d seriously be better off asking for Peter Gammons’ organizational rankings. Insanely questionable source.
thats pretty debatable.
He’s 18 in A ball..
Why don’t we wait a year or 2 to make that distinction
We should sometimes i go too far.
Too bad his defense is in the toilet. Again, a possible good hitter in the very low minors.
DO you ever know what you’re talking about? A possible good hitter? and he’s defense for the most part is fine he throws his glove at the ball when blocking it like a lot of 18 year catchers do but most actuall scouts disagree with you.
You’re 4th and 5th last year lets wait for them to tell us who is higher let’s not forget it’s based on more than just numbers sancez performed better and a great second half will they care IDK but today they put slade heatcot in the top 10 so i’m not going to try to guess.
Considering the Yankees fifth rated prospect by BA washed out and two of their top ten graduated, it’s unlikely that the Yankees’ system leapfrogged the Jays’.
Did montero graduate by their standards? Besides Lawrie graduated, Drabeck struggled in AAA, and in the bigs, Stewart was ranked highly, and he’s gone so it’s not that clear to me. Molina is also gone.
I wasn’t referring to Montero, actually. The top tens I was speaking of were Noesi and Nunez, both of whom spent enough time in the bigs this year that they probably don’t count as prospects anymore. Montero definitely still counts, Lawrie’s on the fence as a “prospect,” I’d say. Not sure of BA’s cutoff.
Ahh ok didnt realize nunez was there.I’m much happier with this years top ten. But ya your right they wont surpass the jays. But they definalt aren’t just hype.
Yes but D’arnaud, Gose, Marisnick, Syndergaard, Hutchinson and a few others all took steps.
You’re right this is very hard to do for another team fanbase. I can say that williams and santanna shined in their first year and stuff like but truthfully i cant look at the jays system and speak on the same level. Which is why me saying is still close is an assumption. Like they lost nunez off the top ten list but every name on it now is a lot better than him.
The Jays farm is rated third overall, the Yankees seventh. How is New York’s system ranked higher. If the M’s wanted to trade Fernandez to New York, it starts with Cano, Gardner, Montero and then goes from there. One star player for one star player and since pitchers are valued higher than position players, Gardner and Montero are added. I seriously doubt though that the Yankees would give up their star player, but New York fans have no problems with other teams giving New York their elite star players for question marks and no names.
The top 3 are KC, Tampa and Texas. Toronto I believe is 5th and the Yankees are 7th.
Whose rankings are you going off of?
I meant to say Atlanta was 3rd, not Texas. But I got the Jays and Yankees rankings wrong. And I went on BA but it was an early 2011 article.
I’m sure things have changed since then.
Because it isn’t?
BA 2011 Organizational Talent Rankings 1-5:
1. Royals
2. Rays
3. Braves
4. Blue Jays
5. Yankees
Now, maybe I need to go back to school and re-learn a thing or two, but last I checked, #4 is better than #5 on a ranking scale. But hey, maybe you want another source:
Keith Law had the Jays ranked fourth, Yankees ninth. Four still beats nine.
The Yankees have a higher ranked TOP prospect than the Jays, but that doesn’t make their farm system better.
Both systems are very strong. They both show well in their respective minor league (PCL, Eastern League, Florida, Appl, Gulf, etc) Top 20 Prospects. However, Jays might pull ahead a little bit with all of their recent above-slot & international signings.
umm 4 < 5, duh. Take a math class.
You shut your mouth when you’re talking to me.
…
Aside from Montero, there’s very little in that list that I would want over players from the Blue Jays system. The Yankees system is not better than the Jays by any stretch of the imagination.
Well, they’re ranked higher, so obviously the players are.
no they aren’t
Look it up, buddy.
where exactly? I’m looking and I see Jays third and Yankees 5th? you should source your work.
Why are people arguing who’s system is better? I bet many teams would kiill to have the farm systems these two teams have.
Why do we argue about where free agents will sign, or whose made up trade is better? It just wouldn’t be a discussion thread without pointless bickering.
What list are you looking at? I’m really curious now.
Jays farm>Yankees farm by a huge margin
According to who?
Jays are 3rd, Yankees are 5th. A different of 2 spots is not a huge margin.
If I remember correctly KC has the best system, but look were that has gotten them !
Considering how awful that division is, it could very well get them far sooner than you think.
Braves owe the Tigers a fair deal to get him back, damn you Renteria!
how about damn you Dave Dombrowski or whoever the clown was that traded Smoltz?
How about for Peralta? Just swap us a shortstop for JJ and all will be right. hehe.
i would swap them straight up
Does this mean Danks still?
Can someone please explain why the Giants are crying poor this offseason? They are a season removed from being World Series champs and sold out every game + 1.5 million panda hats…why are they claiming to have no money? Prince Fielder is still out there and would solve most of their offensive woes…I’m not a Giants fan but live in the Bay Area and am just surprised that they are doing little to upgrade the offense when they are a couple good hitters away from possibly winning 1 or 2 more titles while Lincecum and Cain are healthy and dealing.
The M’s will not trade Felix. he loves Seattle and he is the guy here. Only way it happens is last year of his deal if no extension can be done. and that is 3 years away… So no deal and Rosenthal can stick it guy needs to be more realistic in his writing. Pineada on the other hand could be had for the right pieces. A starting or ready to start this year 3B, C and a young talented prospect.. Montero is a Dh/1B not a catcher he blows as a catcher.
So you don’t want to deal Felix, but you’d deal Pineda? That makes no sense.
If I’m the GM of the Mariners and could rob two teams like the Padres did of the Reds in the Latos deal, I’d trade them both.
Being a Rangers fan. I would gladly get robbed right now for both Felix and Pineda lol.
Hahaha, for both is would probably take the top 8 prospects and Feliz or something ridiculous.
lol something like that
Jays wont deal Lawrie. Of the guys you mentioned to the Ms I would only want Lawrie and D’Arnaud
Was this meant as a reply to me? Did you know that Gose is one of the most highly regarded OF prospects in all of baseball?
if Felix Hernandez was involved, I guarantee you the Jays would deal Lawrie, and he’d only be part of the package that lands him.
the thing is, they wouldn’t
because its too late to get a third baseman.. Felix is a stud and he’s currently my fave pitcher, but making the rotation stronger but a hole at 3B doesn’t make sense..
If the Mariners would take, Arencibia, Hutchinson, Gose, Mcguire & Cecil then sure.
Bautista plays 3B and it’s not too late to get an outfielder…
Bautista has stated he rather play the OF, he also doesn’t play third well..
but I guess ya, it could happen.
i wouldn’t do it. felix is great, but not that great
I guess I should have added that I don’t necessarily think it would (or should) actually happen, just that it could.
And really, would you rather have Felix with Bautista at 3B and Beltran in RF, or Lawrie at 3B and Bautista in RF? Honest question. Only considering short-term impact I might think about it, but when you consider the long-term impact too I probably wouldn’t.
there are other valuable pieces in their system, which is pretty much ridiculously deep, but in terms of top talent thats close to big league ready you’re looking at lawrie, d’arnaud and alvarez.
i posted lawrie + d’arnaud for felix on another thread. it got pretty much a unanimous no from jays fans (granted a small sample). if i was AA i’d have think on that one. 3 yrs of perennial cy young threat vs. elite catching prospect and the best young position player on your roster, who is also canadian (even though his hometown is closer to seattle than toronto). 3 years of felix (even at 5-7 WAR per year) doesnt seem like a whole lot compared to what lawrie and d’arnaud could produce through their pre arb and arbitration years. of course that’s contingent on both of them producing in the bigs though
i think in a vacuum a gm makes that deal, but it would take some guts to deal lawrie given his home country stardom and the lack of a replacement in the jays system. d’arnaud is easier to give up since the jays have arencibia who seems fairly capable.
id like to see the Tigers make a move like Jurrjens and prado for Turner, Young, Crosby and Oliver, assuming we get Cespedes
The M´s won´t trade Felix, he will die as a Mariner, btw Montero can´t catch, Nova is awful and Betances is the next Fernando Rodney.
Felix is ours and you can´t have him!!
Then Montero plays 3rd or 1st. Nova was fantastic, and Betances’ ceiling is a number one. Oh, Mariners fans, how you think you know baseball.
Montero is overated, Righty pull hitter that would die in SAFECO. That alone is a reason for me not to want him.
Righty pull hitter? He’s righty, you got that correct. But he is a left center to right field hitter. You should check him up before you talk. How exactly is he overrated? I know it must be hard being a fan of a team that has a history of losing, but it doesn’t mean you have to get butthurt about it.
It’s funny that you mention actually checking into a player after mentioning Montero playing 3B. Lulz.
“Then Montero plays 3rd or 1st.” When did I say he plays 3rd? I didn’t, I suggested a position change. It’s funny when people reply to posts they don’t know how to read.
When did I imply you didn’t mean a position change? Montero is a terrible defender. Maybe you shouldn’t assume things – you’re not very good at it.
Are you kidding? “Then Montero plays 3rd…” DOESN’T mean you’re suggesting he possibly plays 3rd?
No, it means he could change positions. Is that difficult to comprehend?
Yes. It actually is. Players don’t just change positions because it might be convenient. You actually need to have the mobility and skills. Where does a guy who can’t catch move to? 1B might be an outside possibility. He’s a DH is what he is.
The Yankees should sign Prince Fielder as their catcher! He could switch positions, because hey, apparently it’s easy to do!
Dave Cameron of Fangraphs seems to pretty well.
Oh Yankees fans…Smh
“Then Montero plays 3rd or 1st.” Dude, that is funny! I guess Aroid or Tex just take a seat so Montero can flub defensively.
No chance Montero ever plays 3B. None.
Red Sox have turned into new Marlins, Marlins have turned into Yankees, and Yankees have turned into old Marlins.
I dont get the Red Sox to Marlins thing…or Yankees Marlins thing
Montero is nice, but the M’s have better piching prospects than those two Yankees, and Nunez and Nova are overrated. It’s not a good deal for the M’s, especially when compared to what the Padres got for Latos.
Nunez will be a very good player, it was his fist year. It was also Nova’s first year. 16 wins, a 3.70 ERA. How is that overrated? Please, tell.
No one cares how many wins he has, the point is his ceiling is not particularly high and he wouldn’t be more than a throw in in a Felix deal.
What about the ERA and other stats? He’s only 24. He is starting to establish himself as a number two. You Mets fans are so silly!
He’s a pitcher with a FIP and xFIP in the low fours who gets ground balls and doesn’t miss bats. If you’re going to insult my team, I’ll point out that he had the same 2.7 WAR as Jon Niese but with worse peripheral stats, but those don’t matter to you. He’s a True Yankee(tm) and other teams must value him accordingly.
It was also his first year. In a hitter’s park, in the best offensive division in baseball.
Thank you for your sanity (sincerely)! I was beginning to wonder about the posters on this board.
Please cite these “other” stats. Are these the ones that tell us he allows a lot of baserunners (WHIP) and had an abnormally low/luckly BABIP? Or xFIP which shows that his ERA was good fortune? Do tell.
.283 BABIP is abnormally low? If he was on the A’s he’d get Cahill type hype.
His ceiling is of a number 3 thats fine, look at cahill’s value for the same basic stats.
Because wins suck.
I agree 100%.
I would strangle someone and dump them in the Green River for Lawrie and D’Arnaud.
Jays don’t have enough position player talent to trade Lawrie..
They can only trade Catchers, CF or Pitchers
thats it. maybe hechavarria too.
Fine, we’ll give Seager or Liddi. Hell, have both.
I think if AA has a shot at King Felix, he might be willing to part with Lawrie but Hernandez may be the only guy in the league he could stomach losing Lawrie for. The more I think about it, the Mariners should at least check around the league and see if they can pillage a good farm system.
It’s not so much about losing Lawrie, its the fact that the team really wouldnt be any better..
The jays have a lot of prospect depth, but only in pitching, catching and center fielding (lol)
If the jays had signed Ramirez to play third then sure, but losing a roster player would be counter productive.
For the Jays to land a top of the rotation starter it would have to be for players that weren’t going to play in 2012.
Or they could then trade some of the (remaining) depth at those positions for a 3B. I can just about guarantee that any deal Seattle makes with Toronto involving Felix would begin with Lawrie.
What young 3B would be ready for the taking?
If AA did call Jack about Felix I can guarantee it would start with, any 4 prospects, Lawrie’s no longer a prospect.
Would it have to be someone young? Pablo Sandoval or Martin Prado could easily be had with that system of the Jays.
Still doesn’t make sense from the Jays perspective.
Its going to be a big haul, its going to be an overpay, but it has to be with non roster players.
joey third, lind/EE/thames left, snider right…. is what would happen its brutal but there is options
I want to see the Mariners trade Felix just to see what the prospect haul would look like…it would seriously be insane…a team would have to literally sell their entire farm to acquire him…he’s the ultimate trade piece….the combination of youth, years of control, and “eliteness” are all there….what would it take? He’s the one guy you could see teams parting with their “untouchables” like a Harper/Trout/Lawrie/Profar + more specs.
before someone corrects me..I know my “years of control” is not as if he is a Gio Gonzalez on a cheap contract..I now he has 3 years 58 mill so you still gotta pony up cash.
Felix is on such a reasonable contract that it should be a felony.
ya..it is very reasonable especially for what guys are signing for today…he’s going to get a massive payday in 3 years that will break contract records for pitchers.
When you pay an average pitcher like Danks $13M a year…lol
Felix’s next contract will be a record…until Kershaw is due up lol.
That danks deal was totally worth it idk what you’re talking about then again you think holland is better than him
Not just Holland, our entire rotation is better than Danks. The only one Danks could technically start over i’d say would be Colby (this year with the bad hip).
SO the fact that holland and lewis have never shown the big league success as danks has doesnt matter. For a guy one year older than hollond hes done alot more.
Exactly. And no matter how many times Yankees fans say it, Montero just isn’t in that league because he cannot play defense.
Posada couldn’t “play defense.” Giambi couldn’t “play defense.”
And you can get away with that more on a team that scores a lot of runs. On a team that doesn’t score a lot of runs, defense has to be premium. You know, to prevent runs. So that the smaller amount of runs your team scores can still win ballgames.
Your simply mentioning a couple of success stories. Lots and lots a players with great bats can’t play defence and never get a shot or are restricted to the DH spot where they’re value is minimal. Montero my very well be one of them.
His bat plays at 1B, so he’ll always be okay..
You mean like Frank Thomas?
”
Posada couldn’t “play defense.” Giambi couldn’t “play defense.””
Posada got by because he was at a premium position, which if Montero can ever become passable at will give him the same value. Giambi, however, is a horrible example, the guy was never more than 3 WAR player once steroid bans came into play.
I’m not sure that the Nats would trade Harper, but Idk.
All I know is that if King Felix does come on the market, the Rangers better do everything within their power to get him.
The Rangers could also put together a better package than the Yankees with Profar, Martin, and Perez headlining a deal.
Even though it would suck if I’m the Mariners to trade Felix to a division rival, I would have Texas at top of the list in terms of farm systems I would want to rape if I were JackZ..Texas is already scary good but I love the Rangers farm system and there is a King Felix deal there to be made.
Is that a Josh Lueke joke?
Felix Hernandez is one of one three pitchers I would “sell the farm” for. The Rangers and M’s could help each other out greatly.
who are the other 2? Strasburg + …?
Verlander, Kershaw
Nailed it.
I would have considered Josh Johnson but the man can’t stay on the field.
i would take Lincecum over anybody..even Verlander
I’m going to assume that’s a joke lol.
ya, you are probably right…the Bryce Harper train brings much more to D.C that can really be quantified in terms of fan/media interest….but the thought of a King Felix/Strasburg/Zimmermann rotation might be too tantalizing for Rizzo if the M’s insisted he be included…that rotation would be just filthy.
You judge pitchers by wins. I can’t help you. Is it hard to ring up wins when your team averages 8+ runs in your starts. Look that up. 2nd highest in all of baseball. Ever heard of WHIP or xFIP. Look it up. Learn.
I know FIP is a disease in cats that’s almost always lethal but I’m not sure what’s with the x prefix…
Ken Rosenthal is a 5-year long crusade that the Mariners have to trade Felix. Its tiresome already.
Yes the Red Sox want pitching but so do a bunch of teams thats not news to anybody.
The haul for Felix would probably be the greatest return in the history of the mlb.
But realistically, trading him now, or in 2 years would probably be a similar return, so Mariners might as well keep him.. just make sure he stays healthy.
If you look at what the Reds sent for Mat Latos it might end up being seen as an underpay for Pineda. The value of starting pitchers is extremely high, especially one of Pineda’s caliber.
No Lawrie, no Pineda.
100% agree, Pineda´s ceilling is huge, he´ll be a top 10 pitcher in the league by 2013, pretty sure about that, No Lawrie, No Pineda…
He is a 2-pitch guy, so saying he will be a top 1o pitcher may be quite a stretch. Very few 2-pitch pitchers have that ceiling. I think Pineda is very good, but that you are expecting way, way too much out of him.
very few teams would trade young impact, on field talent if theres no one there to replace it..
Padres got Alonso and Grandal because they are blocked, otherwise that package doesn’t happen.
A trade needs to make sense on both sides, especially one of this magnitude.
Yea, exactly. That’s why everyone brings up Profar and Olt in trade discussions about the Rangers. They’re blocked by Beltre and Andrus.
Thats why if Felix was to ever get pulled out of Seattle, it would be a team like Texas who does it..
You have top end major league talent thats blocked, and you have the on field talent to make sense out of acquiring Felix.
An up and coming team, like the nats, royals or jays would do more damage in depleting the farm, especially if it costs a Hosmer or Lawrie.
Rangers, Yanks, Braves could do the deal and not look back.
It would be tough to outbid the Yanks. They have too many big names to offer. Plus, we’d have to throw in a premium, more than likely, for it being to a division rival.
Yankees have some names, but the problem is they don’t have that star prospect.
I mean Montero is a stud, don’t get me wrong, but his value takes a hit because of his defensive abilities.
Yanks Haul could be Montero, Banuelos, Sanchez, Betances, & Bichette
Texas Haul could be Profar, Perez, Olt, Martin, & Mendez..
The Texas haul just offers more defensive variety, which is important for a haul this big.
Losing all of those guys would be a hard pill to swallow, but it would pay off I think.
Adding Felix to Darvish, Lewis, Holland and that absurd offense would be a dynasty
I don’t want to say anything about Darvish until he gets here. I’m still not sure how to feel about him, and the money that was spent.
There has to be a reason the Rangers brass felt that Darvish at 125 million was a better investment than Wilson at 85.
Even if he just becomes a solid mid rotation pitcher its worth it.. Think of all the steps and time that the rangers missed. Drafting, signing bonus, MiLB salary, development, etc.. This is pay and play. Hopefully it works out
Do you really think Darvish can outperform Wilson’s last year with Texas. I think the Angles are the team to beat.
Rangers offense is lightyears ahead of the Angels offense, even with Pujols.
Darvish doesn’t need to outperform Wilson. Texas is still the team to beat.
That’s bull Gary sanchez is a star prospect.
As for the Braves, their system is full of pitching. They don’t match up well with the Mariners. Yankees don’t have the players at positions the Mariners need. The Jays match up best with the Mariners because they have young guys at all the positions the Mariners need (OF, C, 3B). And you can say Lawrie is off limits because he’s the only 3B in the system and the future 3B of the Jays, but if the Jays far system is as deep as I’ve been reading, they could easily replace him in trade with a Moustakas or a Sandoval. Or just a signing of Wright next offseason.
Rangers match up nicely if the Mariners want OF,C, 3B..
the key being that the rangers have beltre, napoli and outfielders already in place.
if Lawrie was included it wouldnt be much of a package. Maybe Lawrie and 2 arms, 1 high ceiling 1 mid ceiling..
We (Rangers) don’t have much when it comes to C though. The best we would have to offer is Jose Felix.
I think probably since I’m a Mariners fan, I’m overrating Felix. But I also think since you’re a Jays fan, you’re overrating Lawrie. Also, do the Rangers have any C prospects as high as d’A?
perhaps. I’m more of a Hernandez fan than a Lawrie fan though.. I wouldn’t be opposed to losing him, but the jays infield depth serious sucks, he would just be too hard to replace, to a point where even adding Felix wouldn’t make the jays any more of contenders.. Lawrie’s a bat that the jays offense is going to rely on as another option to Jose..
and no rangers have no touted catching prospects.
Plus, it´s well known that Felix hates Canada,would be an impediment, he loves Seattle, and he will die as a Mariner.
why didn’t you just tell us you were unintelligent to begin with?
It takes intelligence to think of mentioning something like that!
Yeah he also prefers southern Greenland to northern Iceland!
Washington state is Canada to everyone outside the Pacific NW.
The best young pitcher? He isnt getting any younger! You obviously have not won with him, and arent going to win with him in the future. Why not trade him and steal a farm?
Nova is awful? How so.
Montero > Smoak, and it’s not even really that close. (Offensively)
Smoak – 223 career games, 0.2 WAR
Montero, 18 games, 0.6 WAR (and his WAR is more penalized for being a DH)
Ouch!
while I completely agree that Montero is the superior player..
the angle you took is complete fluff, Montero’s 18 game sample is pretty much worthless.
you would have been better off comparing minor league numbers and despite them being similar, Montero doing it at a much younger age.
Oh I understand it’s a small sample. But I highly doubt Montero is going to have a -0.4 WAR in his next 205 games.
Simply put, Smoak hasn’t done much since he’s been in the big leagues.
Although I do expect him to have a good 2012 season (As does Bill James, he predicts his WAR to be 2.7 next year)
Minor league numbers, Montero still wins. Although Montero played 489 games in the minors whereas Smoak played only 174 games
Yep…LunchBox45 agrees with your “key message”….he differs on the “supporting details”
SSS.
Seriously, you’re better off just insulting the guy’s mother rather than citing a sample size of 18 games as even remotely viable. Sam Fuld managed 1.1 WAR in 25 games in April this year, is he better than Montero? Marco Scutaro generated a whopping 1.5 WAR in only 25 games in September this season, where’s his MVP award?!
lol I replied about the same time as you did, I mentioned it’s a SSS. I just simply think Smoak is not as good and that I believe the Mariners took the wrong deal. That is all.
Yeah, ignore the injuries and his father dying mid-season. Smoak will turn it around next year, so find something else to feel superior about.
U mad bro?
I didn’t know his father died actually. But injuries Shminjuries, he was only out in August.
And I already said I think he’ll turn it around next year too, but your team desperately needs Prince Fielder.
Blaa, Disqus failing as usual
I’m a Mariner fan and I think we should trade Felix, just not to the Yankees. This has nothing to do with me not wanting to trade with the Yankees or the Yankees haveing a poor farm system, the pices that the Yankees have just does not fit the Mariner’s needs. The Yankee farm system is very pitching heavy, which is the same strenghth the Mariner’s already have. The one eliete hitting prospect in the Yankee’s system is Montero, who is a very poor fit for Safeco. In order to trade Felix I think the Mariners would need two elite bats and I don’t see the Yankees having one that fits with the Mariners.
Rosenthal points to the Latos deal as suggesting that the Mariners could get a much bigger hull, but San Diego found the perfect partner with an overabundance of players at certain positions. It will be hard to find a team with at least two impact bats that will make Felix worth trading with three years left on his contract.
Montero is not a poor fit for anywhere. He has power that plays in any field, and is not just a pull hitter. The first two homeruns he hit in the majors were opposite field, in one game. You should really know the prospects before you dismiss them. There is good reason he was rated #3 in all of the minors, and that’s with many thinking he might not be able to catch. He has tremendous value even if only a DH. Seattle fans in particular should know about that (Edgar Martinez). Yes, Montero has been compared with Miguel Cabrera, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas, etc., and that’s by scouts for *other teams*. And if he can catch say only as good as Posada, his value goes up even more.
That said, I wouldn’t trade Montero in a package for Felix. The Yankees need an influx of younger hitters. Plus Felix only has 3 years of control left now, and his cheap years are now gone. Yes, his value does go down every year, despite the delusions of some Mariners fans. Jack Z really is dumb for not trading him unless he is going to go all out to win with Felix in the next 3 years. But we already learned Jack Z was dumb when he went with Smoak over Montero for Lee. I don’t see them adding any offense, let alone enough to win, so hey enjoy your pitcher supposedly worth the top 5 in any farm system, and losing.
The majority of Montero’s power is still to left field, which hurts his value to the Mariners. Before you criticize me for not knowing prospects you may want to learn to read before responding. If you reread my post you will see that I even acknowledged that Montero is a quality prospect, just that he has a bit less value to the Mariners than he would have for most other teams.
Also where did I suggest that Felix would or should command the top 5 prospects in any system? I said the Mariners should get two good hitting prospects. Just in case you failed math 2 does not equal five.
When you trade your star player for prospects you take on additional risk. To compensate for the additional risk the other team typically gives away talent with the potential to pay significantly greater future dividens. If the Mariners can’t get a couple (meaning two or three not five) of players who can be major building blocks in the near future, how does giving away our best asset make sense if it will not help us get better in the present or the future?
As you point out the Yankees were willing to give up Montero plus several other minor pieces for three months of Lee. Even with Felix’s big pay increase (wich is still well below what he would get in FA) it is border line delusional to think that the Mariner’s couldn’t get more for three years of Felix than three months of Lee.
If we can get two or three potential star hitters, I’m all for the Mariners trading Felix now. The whole point of my original post was that I don’t think the Yankees have the right pices at the right positions to make a trade work.
I think the argument is that if the Mariners traded Felix they could get 4-5 good young players + have $20 million that they could use for a position player to give a boost to their offense. Those moves combined would help Seattle be stronger than just paying Felix $20 million to go 12-11.
I can see both sides, but the M’s should figure out which way they want to go. If they decide to move him, the sooner they do it the more they will get. His 3 years are not cheap, which does hurt is return (even though he is still tremendous). If they keep him, then good for them too…just make the effort to get other pieces and compete. Felix is too good to let him sit there and waste away.
I pretty much agree. If the Mariners could get 4-5 good players, I would do it in a second. I obviously could be wrong but I suspect that the return would be much less than that. If a club approaches them with that type of deal Jack Z should take it. Otherwise the Mariner’s would probably be better off trying to build around Felix.
Off the cuff, if the Yankees offered Montero, Banuelos, Betances, Sanchez and Mason Williams that would be a big haul. The Yankees wouldn’t do it, because it would hurt them too much. That’s why these trades are very difficult to pull off.
Like the Yankees care if a player is inexpensive.
I really hope the Tigers aren’t pursuing Jair. He’s perpetually injured and a rhp to boot, which does them little good with their current rotation. Plus, they tend to get screwed every time they deal with the Braves (including giving them Jurjenns in the first place for Renteria before the worst season of his career, and giving up John Smoltz back in the day). There’s no way he fulfills enough needs for the Tigers to be worth what they would want for him.
I actually hope the Cubs and Tigers cant hook up on a Matt Garza trade.
Felix Hernandez is the “best young pitcher in the game?” Yeah… my butt. Pretty sure that title goes to Rickey Romero
Romero is 27, Felix is 25, Kershaw is 23… fail!
you can’t be serious..
Ricky’s lucky to be in the top 10 of that conversation. And I’m a jays fan.
I hope you are joking.
Dude, what? I can’t tell if you’re joking or not.
Romero’s two years older than Hernandez and his best season was just a hair better than Hernandez’s worst. Romero’s a pretty good pitcher and all, but he’s not even in the same league as Hernandez talentwise.
“we’ve still got the best young pitcher in the game”. When did the Mariners get Tim Lincecum?
Felix has been better the last 2 seasons without facing a pitcher multiple times a game.