TODAY: Wainwright has a torn Achilles and will miss the year after undergoing surgery, GM John Mozeliak tells Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (Twitter link).
YESTERDAY, 11:41am: Cards GM John Mozeliak told KMOX Sports (on Twitter) that he “would imagine” that the injury is season-ending, but the team will wait for official word on Monday.
9:58am: The Cardinals confirmed (on Twitter) that Wainwright suffered an Achilles injury.
9:00am: Wainwright will see a doctor on Monday and receive a prognosis then, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com tweets.
8:30am: The expectation is that Adam Wainwright is done for the season after suffering an Achilles injury last night, sources tell Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter). The Cardinals pitcher has yet to undergo an MRI, however.
Wainwright suffered his injury in the fifth inning of Saturday night’s game against the Brewers as he was running out a pop-up. Wainwright, who has pitched four scoreless innings, was running to first when he came up lame after hurting his left ankle, Rick Hummel of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch writes. The veteran left the park in a walking boot and was stunned by the freak injury.
“I’ve never had anything down there to compare it to. I’m thinking what in the heck just hit me. I thought the catcher’s mask must have hit me. Or the bat must have hit me. It was crazy,” said Wainwright. “I wasn’t even going that hard. I just popped it up. I saw that it was in play so I started to run and my foot just shut down on me. It’s in the back of my ankle. Everything right now is all speculation. I’ve not got my hopes up or down.”
Wainwright was doubly disappointed because, as he told reporters, he felt the best he had all year heading into Saturday night. If Wainwright is in fact done for the year, it’ll be the second time in his career that he has suffered a lost season. The 33-year-old (34 in August) missed the entire 2011 season thanks to Tommy John surgery.
Through four starts this season, the three-time All-Star has posted a 1.44 ERA with 6.5 K/9 and 1.1 BB/9. For his career, Wainwright has pitched to a 2.98 ERA with 7.6 K/9 and 2.2 BB/9.
NL needs a DH.
As a long time opponent, I now agree. Bring it on!
Pitchers have enough injury risk with the TJ epidemic, implementing a DH in the NL would just help avoid other freak injuries and make an even playing field between both leagues.
Could just have easily happened shagging flyballs in BP in pregame. Look what happened to Harvey last week, or Rivera when he tore his ACL a few years ago. Let’s not jump to conclusions after one freak accident.
I didn’t say it couldn’t. I just said it would “help avoid other freak injuries,” I never said it would completely eliminate other freak injuries.
Then what’s the point? Freak injuries happen. If putting a DH would eliminate them entirely, then maybe it’s a good idea. Otherwise it’s a stupid solution to a non-problem.
Implementing helmets didn’t eliminate all freak accidents, so that was a dumb idea too. Minimizing risk is the name of the game. Pitchers don’t spend much time working on hitting nor do they focus on strengthening the parts of the body that are used for hitting, so they are more prone to those freak accidents doing something they are miserable at and is embarrassing to watch.
ryan howard tore his achilles while batting. are you saying howard shouldnt be batting.
Well, Howard shouldn’t be batting…but that is a different topic. 😉
Howard (and other position players) train all offseason working on the muscles involved in those motions, pitchers do not. Each should stick to the two things they work on the most. Pitchers would be pitching and fielding and position players it would be hitting and fielding.
Nothing to do with injuries. Watching a pitcher bat is the most boring spectacle in baseball.
But when they do something great with the bat it’s great thing to see especially when it’s a HR.
Yeah, that happened 15 times last season. While striking out 2011 times. with a .122/153/152 batting line.
I don’t see why we have to put up with watching games. Just publish stats, show some highlights, and that’s that. It’s how most fans follow MLB.
I disagree. I love baseball, and have since I was a child. I played for about 10 years, I go to dozens of games a year and watch hundreds a year. I love watching the games. I watch a couple every day; I pay hundreds of dollars every year on MLB.com for the privilege. I don’t live in a major-league state, but the college team in my town is pretty good, so I watch a couple games in person a month (super cheap!) , and the minor-league team in Indianapolis is entertaining (and cheap), so I go a few times a year. The notion that watching games and paying attention to advanced statistics is mutually exclusive is a little silly.. We can do both.
So if I don’t like watching pitchers flail away and waste everyone’s time, I’m not a ‘real’ baseball fan? No true Scotsman either?
I’m a true Scotsman and I watch baseball.
I’m the other team captain and I choose you too.
…unless that picther is Bartolo Colon, then it is must see TV!
I have to admit he’s pretty fun to watch at the plate. His rundown of AJ Pierzynski was pretty awesome too.
Another long-time HGH user, Mr. Colon is.
Proof?
So is watching an extra point in football, but you don’t see them eliminating that.
The smart pitchers realize they can help their own cause. ATL has long emphasized the importance of hitting for pitchers and this was evident during the heyday of Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz. That’s not to say they were excellent hitters, but fundamentally sound (i.e. sacrificing, bunts, contact and placement hitting). It’s a necessary part of the game. Pitchers should be hitting and teams that don’t have their pitchers take BP aren’t fully utilizing the tools they have.
Extra points are going to be taken out of the game, or at least fundamentally changed. The conversation is happening, as it should be.
As for the waxing poetic about the Braves pitching staff, I couldn’t care less about their ability to hit the baseball. Fact is they were all uniformly awful at hitting a baseball relative to their peers, and nobody should have had to watch them hit.
The DH has been around since 1973 for an organized sport that has been around since 1869. Do you think this is the first time a pitcher has been hurt batting? He awkwardly came out of the box, which happens all the time. It’s a necessary risk that is a part of the game. You don’t change the rules of the game because one pitcher misstep and ended his season just like you don’t when a QB is hurt trying to tackle a linebacker after an interception.
So you’re saying rules should never change? Then do you oppose instant replay too?
Speaking of QBs, should they play defense? Saying a pitcher Should bat is like saying a QB should play defense. Different sport but technically AL pitchers and QBs only play half the game.
To be fair, Pitchers play defense too. They play 2/3 of the parts of the game (defense/offense/pitching). I don’t need to see them bat, because they can’t do it.
All NFL players only play half the game though; that’s not a great analogy.
Technically some play “2/3” (special teams). Only using that since you used fielding
Besides, I think you understood my point.
True. I understand. I like to think about it this way; baseball consists of pitching, hitting and defense. All players except DHs have to play defense. All players except some pitchers have to hit. Almost no players except pitchers have to pitch. If we are going to complain about players not being “complete” players then we have to demand that all position players occasionally take the mound, right?
Should rules change? Sure they should, but just because one pitcher gets out of the box awkwardly and hurts himself, which is a freak accident that just as easily could have happened coming down the stairs of the dugout, does not mean you should change the system that’s been in place for 150 years.
And to answer your question, no, QBs should not play defense as football is a contact sport. Baseball is not. I don’t understand the idea that if a pitcher is paid the most on average per any position on the diamond, why can’t there be a level of expectation that they can adequately provide an offensive presence? This idea that putting a pitcher in the batter’s box is like sending a child off to war is silly.
Responding to your former part, who could possibly care what happened 150+ years ago?
And I noticed you never answered my part about replay. For 150+ years all calls were umpires judgment. So did you oppose instant replay, because we know that has changed the game
The DH has been around for over 40 years now. It is not like it came out yesterday. I bet 90% of people on these forums were born after the DH came into play. Nobody was around 150 years ago so I don’t understand how that’s relevant. It’s like Yankee fans bringing up 27 championship when most fans today saw 5-7.
Should we also demand that all position players should occasionally pitch, then? I mean, after all, why can’t they be “complete” players?
You mean they don’t? I don’t want to get into semantics here, but in a long extra-inning game where the bullpen has been run through or in other rare occasions, have you not seen position players pitch? I have. Rick Ankiel famously rebounded his career going from pitcher to position player. I don’t know if I want to see David Ortiz pitch, but if Jose Canseco can strike someone out…
I’ve seen position players pitch, of course. It’s never pretty. If we’re talking about “complete” players, we have to dock position players for their inability to pitch, right?
No, not necessarily because that’s only going to matter in a few times (when you have extra-inning games, injuries, etc) that would account for that.
Pitchers are awful at hitting baseballs. As a group, they’re terrible at it. Why should I be forced to watch terrible baseball, when I have an alternative method that allows me to watch non-terrible baseball.
I wouldn’t ask the rule to be changed because Wainwright got hurt. I would ask that Major League Baseball put forth the most competitive and entertaining brand of baseball, which means awful, terrible, non-competitive hitters are removed from being forced to hit.
I agree, but the players have no one to blame but themselves for poor hitting skills, sorry. Look at MadBum’s comments. Scherzer chose to come to the NL, where he knew he’d be hitting, and still took that $200M. If he didn’t want swing a wet newspaper, stay in the AL that can hide your misgivings. I’m saying that pitchers need to be more complete players. Part of the strategy in baseball is about maximizing your strengths and minimizing your weaknesses, and for MLB to take that away by allowing someone to only bat would be taking something away from the game. So, if you’re proposing a DH, why not have a DF (designated fielder). I love my Braves and we could only have Simmons fielding. Omar Vizquel would have been one of the best players ever only looking at his defense.
Scherzer chose to go to the NL because the Washington Nationals paid him enough to buy a medium-sized island. You don’t get 2-3 free outs a game in the AL, so why wouldn’t every pitcher flock to the NL where you can record a whole inning a game of automatic outs.
Why are hitters not pitching then? Why are they not being complete players? I frankly don’t care about them being complete players. I want the most competitive baseball possible. I don’t want to watch terrible baseball.
Part of baseball is entertainment. Making me watch awful baseball takes something away from the game.
Why are you complaining? Now you have time to go take a smoke break on your vapor cigarettes.
I don’t get it.
And watching Maddux/Glavine lay down a bunt when they’re already squared away, the pitcher knowing what they’re going to do, was like a matador taming a bull — how’s that for poetry waxing?
Bunting is great for the defensive team. You only get 27 outs in a game, so handing one to the opposition is almost never useful. Bunting is almost always counter-productive; the only reason why pitchers do it is because they can’t do anything else at the plate.
It is when you have 1 on, advance him to a run-scoring position by sacrificing one out and you give possibly 2 more chances (if not for a double-play) to score said run. Strategically-speaking, what is wrong with this concept?
You greatly decrease your chances of scoring multiple runs
Giving up an out always reduces your team’s chances of scoring a run. If a real hitter was batting you’d almost never bunt. Bunting is only sound strategy late in a tie game. Pitchers bunt because that’s all they can do; it doesn’t make it good strategy.
That’s not true, by the way. Advancing 1st/2nd with no outs to 2nd/3rd with one out actually increases (slightly) your chances of scoring a single run
Ok. The difference in WPA is like .003, so you’re correct. But having a runner in scoring position with one out decreases your chances of scoring multiple runs significantly. Which is why I think single-run strategies should be reserved for late and tied games
I largely agree, but the caveat that I think it should be situational. Double play risk should be taken into account, as should the ability of the hitter to get the bunt down. One of the things that really bugs me about sac bunts is that the BEST CASE scenario is that you give up an out to advance the runners, but often they can’t even do that.
Exactly. I think the biggest problem is that usually the hitters with the biggest chance to hit into a DP are sluggers – guys you’d never want bunting. I wonder if adam dunn ever bunted, even once? I feel like pitchers have to bunt because they can’t do anything else at the plate.
Wow, looks like Dunn bunted twice in his career! He also had a season in which he stole 19 bases. Crazy.
He has twice as many as Albert Pujols! I looked up the one Pujols bunt. His rookie year, with him hitting .350, with a 6-3 lead against CHW. Wonder what the deal with that was? The next batter did single though!
You should definitely google search ‘Run-expectancy Matrix’
I’ll just let you do that for me.
Smoltz: 159/226/207 with 136 bunts in 21 seasons
Maddux: 171/191/205 with 180 bunts in 23 seasons
Glavine: 186/244/210 with 216 bunts in 22 seasons.
That’s not very impressive but probably as good as pitchers now. I just don’t think there’s enough hours in the day to teach pitchers how to hit and also be good pitchers. Pitchers haven’t really ever been good at hitting, and there’s a reason for that. It’s a non-selected skill.
You’re not wrong, but it just keeps pitchers a tad safer.
We should stop all PfP in ST to save knee injuries when fielding fake bunts.
Yeah! So then Waino can rupture his Achilles covering first on a lazy ground ball!
He runs the risk of that without a DH as it is, my words were about minimizing risk.
AL should limit how many times they are able to use a DH.
As in number of games overall or number of games for particular players? (Ex., David Ortiz can be DH no more than 30 times)
It would add more strategy to the game, I was thinking 81 games total but I might like your idea better.
Wasn’t really an idea by me. Was just curious to what you meant by limiting it. If by team or by each player.
Please. Pitches keep in just as much athletic shape as hitters yet are talked about like they’re made of glass. They’re in no more danger on the ball field then they are at home and we’ve seen a number of off the field freak injuries. Pitchers don’t get injured while they’re batting because they’re pitchers. They get injured because they’re human beings with muscles, tendons, and joints.
And with how much stress gets put on their arms every start, they don’t need those extra potential freak injury scenarios…especially since they embarrass themselves every time they bat, anyway.
Also, my argument has never been that pitchers aren’t athletes. I think they are very good athletes, but they should focus on pitching and defense…just like position players should focus on offense and defense.
But like someone else mentioned this exact same injury could have happened running to cover first base as did while running out a pop-up. I know you’re arguing about minimizing risks but due to the nature of baseball there is no way to tell how many times a pitcher will have to use their non throwing skills like running in a game whether it be offense or defense.
it’s still extra risk, they can get hit in the hands, why add the extra risk to injury to watch crappy hitters? it makes no sense, it’s the last pro-ball league left that doesn’t use the DH it’s time to move on.
Reply
It’s really quite ridiculous that this is even a conversation. If pitchers hitting wasn’t so important to ‘the integrity of the game’ and this traditionalism, nobody would like it. In a vacuum, pitchers hitting is awful entertainment, and MLB is first and foremost an entertainment industry.
I absolutely would. National league games are far more interesting from a strategic perspective. I see AL box scores where the 9 hitters are the same all 9 innings and marvel at how boring that is
The NL is rapidly approaching that too, though, in these days of 13-man pitching staffs. Two of the three most active managers in baseball with regards to substitutions last season were in the AL (Francona and Maddon) with McClendon not far behind. And the “strategy” of pinch-hitting for a pitcher or the double-switch isn’t really strategy, just necessity.
It’s not necessity at all — there’s always a choice. Even if you think there’s an 100% change of a pinch hitter, the manager still has 3-4 people to choose from, and whoever he chooses will impact the game later down the line.
Everyone keeps bringing up how anemic pitchers’ hitting is, but that doesn’t even matter much to me. Would you rather watch a movie about people defending an impregnable fortress, or about people defending a fortress that has one major hole in it? The latter makes for a way more interesting movie. How do they deal with their one fatal flaw?
If I had to watch a movie, I would certainly prefer to watch a movie with as many quality actors in the movie as possible. I wouldn’t watch a movie with a terrible actor just because I’ve always watched movies with terrible actors.
That doesn’t make any sense at all. The point was that watching people work around a flaw is strategy.
My point is that I shouldn’t have to watch something terrible just because I saw a Martin Lawrence movie once before. Continuing to watch something bad just because I’ve watched something bad before is hardly an argument in favor of watching pitchers be terrible at hitting.
Your analogy-making skills are really poor
You can watch Jason Hammel hit if you like, I find David Ortiz and Edwin Encarnacion much more captivating to watch.
Do you marvel at double-switches or what? I don’t get the allure of watching worse baseball.
Less hitting is not worse baseball. Is a 15-10 game a better game than a 1-0 game?
Pitchers hitting is less competitive baseball, no question. If you enjoy battles between pitcher and catcher, or pitch sequencing, or just the general ‘cat and mouse’ interaction in baseball, then you would love the DH. Having pitchers hit removes that entire process 5-6 times a game.
I don’t necessarily want more offense, I want the most competitive baseball, where pitchers earn their outs and aren’t given them.
I watch both Orioles games and Nationals games, and I don’t really think that
A) there’s ever a situation in which I would love the DH and
B) the NL games are less “competitive.”
But even if they were, I kinda love that there’s a material difference between the leagues. In this era of homogenization of experience, it’s awesome to me that all ballparks are different and the leagues are different. Baseball is cool like that. I don’t want to change it
I watch all teams in both leagues.
A) I love the DH in all situations where pitchers would alternatively hit (as they are terrible at hitting and it’s awful to watch)
B) If you enjoy watching competitive hitting and pitching situations, then you want to minimize the amount of times terrible hitters are forced to hit.
Baseball is fantastic for many reasons. Watching Carlos Villaneuva hit is not one of them.
Oh come on man. Remember Game 6 of the 2011 World Series? The Cardinals are down by two runs in the bottom of the 10th. They have 7/8/9 due up and, because of the awesomeness of national league baseball, have no pinch hitters left to hit for the pitcher in the 9th spot. There’s going to have to be a pitcher batting — the only way they have a prayer of winning is if they can get the first two runners on base in advance of the pitcher. And somehow, they did! It was incredible!
Don’t take stuff like that from me
Sort of reactionary.
No, I have thought that for a long time…just a good time to bring it back up.
I think DHs should be forced to pitch at least one inning every game.
That’s such a silly argument. The overwhelming majority of pitcher injuries don’t occur while batting.
No.
Exactly. You’re not throwing millions of money at these guys for their skills at the plate.
Adam’s heart must be so sad and hurting that it is indescribable. Praying for him with all of my heart.
The HGH users don’t get injured like this. May as well allow it for every player as it is unfair for only some to use.
This is a statement which absolutely cannot be proven in any way.
As is your statement. Are you 100% certain that it cannot be proven?
Well, I’d like to see a list of HGH users and their injury histories in order to verify what you’ve written.
This is what we call shifting the burden of proof.
Well, the argument is that HGh users get injured less than non-HGH users. I’m curious to see the numbers on that. I like data.
We are all curious. I was responding to the other user, not you. The commentor made a claim without providing evidence, and made the mistake of shifting the burden of proof onto you.
Sorry; figured that out later but didn’t delete my post
oh, Cardinal fans…
Wainwright injury history is just plain sad. If he were 100% healthy all these years there is no telling just how far he could go
He should of had 3 cy young awards
2010 is the only debatable year. The rest he clearly wasn’t the best pitcher in the NL.
Outside of Kershaw, He was the best pitcher and maybe Cueto
That is awful.
welp, time to bring in cole hamels
Nah, they have depth.
Sorry to see a great competitor go down. It’s true that this could have happened anytime but I have to believe a lack of cross training had something to do with this.
This is not good news for the cards, Um I wonder if this will have them pick up the phone and get Hamels if they have to or even trade for Jordan Zimmermann or Price.
Try looking to teams not planning to contend for available pitchers.
I said Price because I really do think the tigers take a step back this year, and the Nationals are off to a slow start. But I wonder if the cards would give up a ton to get Hamels.
The Tigers, in spite of your projection, are contending and plan on contending. They won’t be sellers. Washington started off slow, yes, but they plan on contending. Milwaukee, Philly, and perhaps Arizona are the only teams that may consider moving a decent pitcher this early.
Milwaukee doesn’t have a decent pitcher outside of Garza or Lohse , I know philly would want a lot for Hamels, And who do the diamondbacks have they would trade, But the tigers I just think they will fall off and not win the central, I think it comes down to the white sox or the royals winning the central this year.
And if the Tigers don’t the Central, then there’s absolutely positively no way they can make the playoffs.
Oh wait there’s two wild cards per league. Huh.
I will call Dave and tell him in spite of their excellent start, since you feel they won’t contend, he should sell every player of value for prospects. Until they actually fall out of contention, why not concentrate on players that might actually be available? Garza and Lohse are solid candidates with Milwaukees poor start. Any starting pitcher in Arizona that was not acquired by Dave Stewart might be available. Any Philly pitcher over the age of 28 is a candidate, not just Hamels. They might not have the pizzazz of some of the pitchers that are pending free agency, but they might really be available. The Angels are off to a poor start, maybe they should try shedding that Mike Trout guys contract?
If they do trade for some one I’d guess it would be more of a innings eater that’s not a top of a rotation starter.
time for the Hamels rumors to begin.
i’d think they would aim more towards Harang than Hamels.
Plus if the cards did go for hamels, Philly would be asking for Martinez or Marco Gonzalez as the center piece.
It would have to be C-Mart, otherwise there would be no deal. Can’t see the Cards doing that.
i don’t see phillies wanting martinez i think they need outfield and a first baseman more then anything
Phillies would love a plus outfield prospect.
They have depth that can fill in. They don’t need Harang.
Wouldn’t cost the farm acquiring Harang considering he’s not going to get a qualifying offer regardless of how well he pitches this year.
They have Marco Gonzales sitting in AAA just waiting for a rotation spot to open. There’s no need to trade for Harang just to keep him down.
They need both.
I do too, but the writer’s will write!
I hear Ricky Romero is available.
They should also go out and sign Jose Molina and recreate the great 2011 Toronto Blue Jays. Romero and Carlos Villanueva are the future according to the 2011 Blue Jays forums.
John Danks your table is ready. Lol. Please?
This is pretty depressing. Get well Waino!
I’m sure the Orioles would unload Ubaldo or Bud Norris. Although Jimenez has arguably been the O’s best pitcher this year I assume they would still want out of that contract. Norris would probably make more logical sense to trade since he’s a FA at the end of the year anyway.
They have options to add to the back of the rotation. If they’re not adding a #1 or 2, might as well stand pat for now.
Very,very unfortunate for the team and especially for Wainwright. On the flip side,I wonder if this makes the Cards players on the trade market, even if it’s not for a top tier arm.
Probably not for a while at least. Too many options available internally to resort to the market. Probably wouldn’t be a bad idea closer to the trade deadline though, lackey is gunna be gone next year.
As much as injuries are not a player’s fault, I have to suggest that this removes Wainwright from the ranks of elite pitchers. His inability to stay on the field, fair or not, weighs greatly against him in terms of awards, respect, stats, durability perception and free agent value. Even if it is just bad luck, Wainwright cannot keep himself on the field. Sad.
What baseball have you been watching? Wainwright’s been pretty durable. He only lost 1 season to Tommy John Surgery and then he missed like 10 starts in 2008 due to some freak finger injury. Since he has been a starter in 2007, only 2008 and 2011 did Wainwright not log 200+ innings. The rest of the time, the guy has been a machine.
Correction – in 2012 he only logged 198.2 innings. Regardless the guy has been durable.
There is a difference between workhorse and elite. Workhorse when he’s been on the field, yes. 2.5 seasons missed to injury, not durable.
I don’t really know if I can define your definition of “elite,” so I won’t try to argue his elite worthiness with you. A guy that averages over 200 innings and 30+ starts a season and has a career ERA below 3 (2.98 to be exact) supported by an FIP of 3.11 and averaging over 4 WAR a season (using fangraphs) – I don’t really know of a team that wouldn’t consider this guy elite.
Ah, but you are wrong. You simply ignore the missed seasons in your quotation of stats. In fact, over 9 seasons (2007-2015), Wainwright has averaged only 24.6 starts per season and pitched an average of 165 innings. Those missed seasons bring his averages down, and consequently, his perceived value. I don’t think you’d be able to find a GM in the game who would be willing to bet $20MM+ on him, over more than a 2 year contract. That takes him out of “elite” status.
The ripple effects will be interesting. The Reds are far less likely to trade Cueto with the Cardinals losing their ace making the division far more competitive. The Cards may start to negotiate with Lackey for an extension now since Wainwright may be lost for more than a year.
I’m sure Ruben Amaro called up Mozeliak to express his “concern” for Wainwright’s injury and somewhere in that phone call, he tried to sneak in the idea of parting with our future for Cole Hamels.
Looking at Lynn and Wacha as the leaders of our rotation just feels so scary. On top of that, I am not sold yet that Martinez has figured his control issues just yet (need to see him produce more of these starts going into summer). Plus when teams start to adjust to Martinez, will he yet again start having problems keeping runners off base and start falling victim to the big inning?
Unless it somehow becomes 2009 again for Reynolds and Holliday, this team isn’t going to put up a ton of runs. Makes losing Waino that much more devastating.
Guess we just have to see how next few weeks play out in terms of how the Cards produce on the field. If we keep winning, we could stand pat with our depth and maybe do some minor upgrades on the back end of the rotation. We might even decide to make the plunge for an established ace. I just hope to heck that we keep winning – the Cardinals being sellers at the deadline is just not a happy thought!
Tim Cooney, Luke Weaver, and #39 compensation pick to Phillies for Aaron Harang who has an affordable 1yr/$5M deal.
More likely Bourjous for Harang but Cards will go internal for now and if needed pick up someone at trade deadline.
Doubtful Phillies will move Harang without decent prospect return. He may be dealt well in advance of trade deadline. Cards may want to act before then anyway, when the pressure is on the acquiring club to overpay.
I’m not saying Harang is worth some crazy return of prospects, but if he keeps pitching like this (or even just well in general), he’s worth more than a 28 year old defensive OF with only 1.5 years of control. He may be an upgrade on the current Phillies OF, but that isn’t saying much.
Lol what. Seriously?
Both Cooney and Weaver have fallen back in the Cards prospect list, at #10, #12 and are now behind pitchers Gonzalez, Reyes, Kaminsky, and Flaherty because of their more limited ceilings. So, they could be more useful to Phillies than Cards, who should be able to move them without much impact to their system.
But any 2 other decent prospects in the 10-25 range may do the trick as well.
For a 37 year old pitcher? Lol, no.
For a division title instead of a wild card slot, or no playoffs at all?
Sure, in total isolation in January, it would be unlikely. But in the heat of a pennant race, with limited other options, and other suitors lined up for the limited choices, anything is possible.
Values do change when you need something, lol.
Cooney is closer to being Major League ready than Reyes and Kaminsky. I’m alright with Weaver being dealt though.
Prospect rankings, especially team rankings, mean very little when evaluating players. The Twins 2nd best prospect (Miguel Sano) is surely going to be more viable than what many other teams can offer as their 2nd best prospect.
The Cardinals just lost Wainwright for the whole season. Why would they trade two pitchers who are in close proximity to the big leagues? Wouldn’t it make sense to keep high-level pitching prospects with Jaime Garcia/Michael Wacha on a rotation?
Just because a team has depth at one position, it does nothing to the industry’s value of those players. Just because Reynaldo Lopez is behind Lucas Giolito, it does not make Lopez less valuable.
Beyond all of this, trading 6 seasons of a 1st round pick who’s surely going to be starting in the big leagues soon, as well as another viable pitching prospect, and then throwing in a top 40 draft pick for a half-season of Aaron Harang, is nonsensical to me.
Sure, Harang needs to continue to pitch well to have good trade value. But do you really believe that a team can go through half the season, and acquire a pitcher performing at the top of his game for the same value he may have had in the offseason?
It is nonsensical to me that 3 months into the season, a team could bypass all pitchers suffering injuries, decline, and ineffectiveness. Then select an available effective one for some perception of offseason value.
Every farm system has players coming and going every year. Prospects are just that, prospects. You deal the excess for what you need. All the better if you can deal players that are plateauing, and approaching decision time on the 40-man roster and keep the ones still trending up.
Wainwright’s injury will have Cards look at their options and Cooney might be one of them. But expecting a finesse pitcher without overpowering stuff who is known to be inconsistent and can be hit around to jump into the rotation and hold down a spot seems overly optimistic.
He would work better with the Phillies who could use him and live with the results and growing pains if they move one or more pitchers this offseason.
1) No I don’t believe that. Once some of Harang’s rate stats (LOB%, HR/FB%) normalize, we’ll see his ERA resemble his xFIP more closely. He isn’t going to continue to suppress runs at the rate he is now. And it’s half a season (assuming he’s dealt at the deadline), Harang is a decent #3/4 at his best. Trading 12 seasons of legitimate talent and a top 40 pick for Harang is crazy talk.
2) You do not deal excess just because it’s ‘excess’. You put a value on the player, irrespective of any other player in the organization, and you wait for someone to meet that industry value. Jeff Hoffman is not a worse prospect because Daniel Norris is in the Blue Jays system. He’s the same player.
Beyond that, I don’t think many 22-23 year old players are plateauing. Weaver is going to eat up innings in the big leagues. He’s legitimately talented and the Cardinals have put a lot of resources into him. He simply isn’t available for a guy he might be better than in 3 months.
Harang could help some teams in the back end of the rotation, and that’s helpful for any team without much depth. But he’s limited, and he isn’t going to add any crazy surplus value and push a team over the top. He’s an aging veteran on an expiring deal who can soak up innings. The trade proposal you suggested is not reflective of his actual value.
I take issue with: 2) You do not deal excess just because it’s ‘excess’. You put a value on the player.
Every team assesses their 40-man every year. Prospects have a use by date, or become rule 5 candidates or career minor leaguers, or just plain released if they are not on the 25 man as bench players or bullpen arms.
Contending teams tend to have a fair dose of AAAA players on their AAA teams to protect against ML injuries, so playing time can get squeezed there as well.
As far as everything else, it’s a matter of opinion, and everyone perceives value differently when they are buying and when they are selling.
Harang has had a nice start no doubt but he’s 37. And he’s Aaron Harang.
And he had a great start last year too; faded badly after May. I’m guessing he doesn’t quite have the stamina to keep it up all year at this point.
Cooney isn’t getting dealt for a rental. I could see him being a part of a package later on though in a bigger deal.
What would you give us for Shelby Miller…? Matt Carpenter looks quite nice.
Miller is on the Braves…
He’s a Braves fan, that was his point.
I’m a Pirates fan, so on some level this should please me, I guess… but it doesn’t. Wainwright is such a great player and fierce competitor that I want him out there on the field, no matter what I think of the rest of Cardinals.
Moral of the story: Never ever trade a healthy mid-rotation arm for a one-year outfield rental, no matter how good he is. Just. Don’t. Trade. Healthy. Major league. Pitching.
And Miller is the best arm on the team right now. Thank you, Jason Heyward. Let’s see if STL tries to extend him now. This should be interesting.
That is not the moral of this story, at all.
As a Cub fan I kinda have a tendency to despise the Cardinals…but Adam Wainwright is a great pitcher and plays the game the way it should be played. My thoughts and prayers go out to him and hopefully he has a speedy recovery
Will he be able to pitch in the post-season if Cards are in it, or is he out until 2016?
I hope Adam will heal smoothly and quickly. All prayers to him and the Cardinals team.
9-12 month recovery. Return between February and May 2016
So you are saying if there is a whole bunch of rain from October through January, he has a chance??
Holy Cow…Ouch!..again
TIME TO GET COLE HAMELS!!!!!
He got hurt running. Something Wainwright does every day whether hitting, pitching or not.
He was just running. Should they make a rule that pitchers aren’t allow to field because that makes them run?
I’m for getting rid of the DH position or at least limiting it to something like 81 games for the season.
The DH is something that needs to leave baseball and never, ever, ever come back ever again.
Not happening. It will be added to the NL soon. Pitchers batting = boring.
Watching a guy that isn’t athletic enough to field a position being called a “baseball player” = depressing.
Pitchers batting is not in any way shape or form boring. Tell me watching Bartolo Colon bat is boring. I dare you. People love watching him bat. People love watching pitchers bat. People genuinely love watching it. It is a complete fabrication and lie to say people don’t enjoy watching pitchers bat.
And guess what? It’s the rule of the game. You have 9 players and 9 positions and 9 positions in the batting order. That’s baseball.
And guess what else? MLB is going to be expanding rosters soon, probably to 30. And part of that will be removing a DH. The MLBPA will have 5 more rosters spots but lose a DH, that will be the deal, and MLBPA will jump on it.
I’ll take the depressing side over the boring side in this case. The depressing side effects the athlete. The boring side effects the fans.
You mean Ted Williams? Or Babe Ruth? Or Harmon Killebrew? None of those guys could field. I don’t think they were depressing players.
Haha. But as I’ve said before, the DH is coming to the NL. So people might as well get ready for it.
Exactly.
“And guess what? It’s the rule of the game. You have 9 players and 9 positions and 9 positions in the batting order. That’s baseball.”
And the AL has the DH which is also a rule in the game. That’s baseball.
” And guess what else? MLB is going to be expanding rosters soon, probably to 30. And part of that will be removing a DH.”
You making this up? Because I never heard this once. But what I did hear, is Manfred is considering adding the DH to the NL. So better learn to enjoy it.
And Bartolo Colon is the exception, not the rule. 9 out of every 10x a pitcher strike out (when he doesn’t sac bunt). Automatic outs = boring.
Haha, no it won’t and no they won’t. The AL will never get rid of the DH, because pitchers hitting is ridiculous. And I don’t know about anyone else that you’re apparently speaking for, but I can’t stand watching them hit.
We should remove names and jerseys, and have 9 pitchers hit in a lineup as a thought experiment. And on the other side you put 9 phenomenal hitters (Stanton, Harper, Ortiz, Trout etc.) in a lineup. I wonder which side people would enjoy watching more.
Who in the world actually enjoy watching Jordan Lyles hit? Whose eyes are glued to the TV screen once Dillon Gee steps into the box? It’s nonsensical.
If the NL gets a DH I will never watcha single baseball game ever again. That’s a fact. Baseball will be forever dead to me. Nothing could possibly be worse than the NL getting a DH. DH makes baseball completely unwatchable.
So you don’t watch the ASG now? Or the World Series when the AL team is at home?
Pretty said that whether or not a PITCHER bats in the lineup is your deciding factor on whether or not you’ll watch the game
” DH makes baseball completely unwatchable”
Every Single League in the entire World except the National League in MLB and one of the 2 Japanese leagues have the DH. But I guess only 2 leagues “get it right”.
The NL is baseball and everyone else needs a handicap to compare.
The DH destroys all strategy and technique in the sport. It removes all strategy from bench management, injury management, bullpen management, starting pitcher management. It makes the game mindless and soulless and it makes the game unbelievably boring. MLB is supposed to be the highest level of play, why does it need a handicap? Lesser leagues can have a handicap if they want, real baseball doesn’t have a handicap. Real professional players don’t need training wheels.
According to Jim Leyland, it is harder to manage in the AL (look it up).
This just isn’t true. AL managers engage in plenty of strategy; two of the three most active managers in the majors last year were in the AL. And most AL managers are just as active with regards to strategic decisions as NL managers.
No, he didnt. He said the NL is harder. He said people underestimate difficulty of when to pull a starting pitcher, but NL is much more work. Because the NL is more work. An AL manager has one job in a game, when do I pull the starter? Other than that, the all manager has no job, no role, nothing to do. It’s boring. It’s terrible to watch.
“No, he didnt. He said the NL is harder”
Wrong.
Leyland, in a pregame talk in his office, said it is “more fun to manage in the National League, and there’s more to do,” but said he considers it more difficult to manage in the American League.
“The reason I’ve said that all along is that, in the National League, if you get to the fourth or fifth inning down by three or four runs, you pinch-hit for your pitcher,” Leyland said. “So the decision’s kind of made for you.
“In the American League, you have to be precise as to when you take him out. He might have given up three (runs) in the first (inning) and really settled down and really is pitching a good game. You get to the sixth inning and maybe he gets in a little trouble – has he lost it, has he not? I think pitching is the most of managing. So I think it’s a little more difficult than people understand.”
ROFL
I just summarized what he said and your response is that I’m wrong?! I can see why you like the DH lol.
ROFL
Your first words : No, he didnt. He said the NL is harder
Now re-read this, particularly what’s in bold:
Leyland, in a pregame talk in his office, said it is “more fun to manage in the National League, and there’s more to do,” but said he considers it more difficult to manage in the American League.
Therefore my friend, you are wrong.
Rofl, sure, when you have no reading comprehension or appreciation for context or subtly, I can see how you can come to that conclusion. Again, I can tell why you enjoy the DH, its perfect for people like you.
Um. Everyone has a reading comprehension. Some are just very poor (like someone in this convo here, and it ain’t me)
“Again, I can tell why you enjoy the DH, its perfect for people like you”
Yes we don’t like seeing automatic outs. Thanks. Enjoy the pitcher batting for as long as it lasts and then we will say hello to the DH in the NL (and apparently, bye to you)
why should we keep watching nl if a pitcher strikes out like 90 percent of the time baseball needs more offense
Like I said, rosters will expand and DH will go away. So enjoy your precious DH while it lasts.
Where did you hear that? All I’ve been hearing is the NL getting the DH very soon.
A: the al wants to get rid of DH
B: organizations want more roster space for bullpen arms
A+B = everyone wins.
A- Said only by you probably (again, what’s your source?). Otherwise I’ll just take it by your word of mouth
B – Possibly
Yes, because there’s nothing fans like more than watching more pitching changes. This would fly in the face of the directive to decrease the time of games, which is slowed down almost solely by the absurd amount of bullpen specialization we see today.
I also dont understand why the “little strategy” has an effect on whether or not fans enjoy the game. Fans aren’t coaches. They should just watch baseball. Not think strategically.
If you want more offense, shrink the strike zone back to what it was in 2004. The zone is bigger than ever before, and surprise strike outs are up, walks are down, and runs are down.
What ridiculous is when a team uses a DH. A pitchers job is to hit.
more offense would come if pitchers would stop batting is kind of point less for them to bat
No it isn’t. It is irrational for pitchers to not hit. In baseball you have 9 players, 9 positions, 9 spots in the lineup. One player plays one position and has one spot in the lineup. It is 9 v 9. It is irrational to claim one player magically doesn’t do half his job for no reason because some random person on the internet decided the underlying goal of the game needs to change.
The point of baseball isn’t to score as many runs as possible, the point of baseball is to have a group of 9 players who scores more runs than they allow. You can mix and match your 9 players however you want. They can have any combination of skills and talents that you want. But you get NINE guys.
please tell me how pitchers hitting benefits baseball
Tell how a DH benefits the game? Other than it removing all strategy and fundamentally changing the goal and structure of the game turning it into a different sport.
Pitchers batting is baseball. If pitchers don’t bat, you aren’t playing baseball.
Who cares? That’s the game. If you want David Ortiz to bat and you don’t want to see a pitcher bat, then have fun watching all the runs Ortiz gives up while he’s trying to pitch.
That’s funny, I thought a pitcher’s job was to pitch. A hitter has two jobs. To hit and to field his position. A pitcher has two jobs. To pitch and to field his position. To add a 3rd job is ridiculous, which is why pitcher’s are so bad at it, because they don’t practice often. Do you suggest we start asking hitters to pitch as well? Because, somehow I doubt it.
Pitching **IS** fielding the position.
All players in baseball have two jobs:
Job 1: field your position
Job 2: hit
Or in other words:
Job 1: Defense
Job 2: Offense
Done.
The Blue Jays haven’t made the playoffs in 22 years and counting, it was a joke.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anything that stupid in my entire life.
Rofl. Baseball has nine players. All nine play offense, all nine okay defense.