8:35pm: Tulowitzki spoke with Patrick Saunders of the Denver Post about Cohen’s comments stating that he hasn’t read them, but he routinely meets with his agent whenever he is in Los Angeles. Tulo did somewhat nebulously address the topic when asked what the future holds, however:
“I really don’t have a clue — honestly. I just know that I don’t want all of this hanging over my head every day I come to the ballpark. This game is hard enough as it is. … It’s a tough topic to talk about, but if it’s being thrown around there, it’s something I need to get addressed, because the last thing I want is to come to the field every day with that hanging over my head.”
6:21pm: With the Rockies mired in a nine-game losing streak, agent Paul Cohen, who represents Troy Tulowitzki, tells Joel Sherman of the New York Post that he and his client will meet on Thursday and discuss, among other issues, whether or not the star shortstop should request a trade.
Cohen tells Sherman that it would be “silly” to suggest that a trade isn’t a possibility, adding that he and Tulowitzki spent quite a bit of time discussing the scenario in the offseason. It’s not hard to see why Tulowitzki would entertain the idea of asking for a trade, given the team’s struggles, Cohen says, and he also sees value in acting early for the organization. From Sherman’s piece:
“It could get to the point for [owner] Dick Monfort and GM Jeff [Bridich] that the storyline every day with the team is when is Tulowitzki being traded,” Cohen said. “That is negative for the franchise as the idea of trading the face of the franchise. They are smart enough to recognize they don’t want that going forward.”
While there’s certainly logic behind Cohen’s reasoning, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reports that the Rockies aren’t yet ready to pursue a trade of Tulowitzki (Twitter link). The team would like to add some pitching, but their preference is a much lower cost of acquisition than dealing away the face of their franchise.
The frustration with Tulowitzki does seem palpable, however. Sherman said he spoke to two people that are close to Tulowitzki who said that he is frustrated with four losing seasons and wants out of Colorado. (Cohen declined to comment on his client’s mindset, per Sherman.) In the wake of the team’s latest loss on Sunday, Tulowitzki told Nick Groke of the Denver Post this weekend: “I’m sitting in my chair here and trying to think of one positive thing and there are not many. It’s tough, but what are you going to do?”
Sherman lists the Padres, Mets, Pirates and Mariners as speculative teams with needs at the shortstop position, adding that the Yankees remain unlikely to make a play for Tulowitzki. The Yankees, according to Sherman, are emphasizing defense and to limit long-term risk. Some scouts and officials to whom Sherman has spoken feel that Tulowitzki may not be long for shortstop given his age and history with injuries.
Tulowitzki, 30, is hitting .307/.317/.495 this season with a pair of homers but a troubling 23-to-2 K/BB ratio in 104 plate appearances. Owed $118MM from 2015-20, Tulowitzki’s contract also contains a $15MM club option for the 2021 season and provides him with a $2MM bonus and full no-trade protection in the event that he is traded. The four-time All-Star’s 2014 season ended prematurely when he underwent surgery to repair a torn labrum in his left hip. Over the past five years, Tulowitzki has averaged just 106 games per season, though some of his injuries — including a broken hamate bone suffered when he was hit by a pitch — have been fluky in nature.
It will be very interesting to see what kind of value he has on trade market coming off a serious injury plus a not so great start by his standards
Is it weird that I truly want him to be traded to the Padres? Not because he may saddle them in the longterm, but because it would add to the legend of AJ Preller. Adding another huge contract would be a significant gamble, but it sure would make their offense scary this year.
Adding Tulo would be more scary for a left handed pitcher. Alexi Amarista is one of the 2 lefties left (ha) in the lineup! (Yonder Alonso)
They probably have to go all-in with the roster they have. no sense in having such a bad left side of the infield.
As a padre fan I’m hoping the Rangers are bad throughout and willing to trade Beltre at deadline
SD – where all the big contracts get paid as the players slowly head south.
Other than kemp which contract could you say that to?
Upton, Shields, Kimbrel… they’ve also been in trade rumors for every big name player supposedly on the market.
Upton and kimbrel are in prime years. Shields I guess is due some worse years but is on reasonable deal
What legend?
The team is playing .500 ball and with the bloom off the rose, they’ve slowly been sinking.
dude relax every one goes through that. we will be in the playoff come october
Of course you will.
i rrrreeeeaaaaalllyyy want him haha
I can’t blame the guy for at least having thoughts of wanting out of Colorado. That thin air probably isn’t helping him stay healthy, and the lack of team results has to get frustrating on top of spending so much time recovering. It’s going to be tough to trade him if COL wants a real return right now, though. Should be interesting to see how this pans out, and if he even winds up requesting the trade.
That’s slightly funny in that Colorado is statistically one of the healthiest and most active states in the nation. I’m of the opinion that there may be some issues with conditioning (too many weights, not enough stretching) and Tulo does play the game hard. Thin air, though? No, not really the first, most likely cause of injuries.
That comment is based on players who weren’t Rockies who’ve said such things about playing there/being injured there, maybe their perceptions were incorrect, just relaying what I’ve heard. Tulo plays hard, and that inherently increases injury risk, but he’s injured a lot even for a player who plays hard,which is troubling.
Given that the Broncos and Nuggets don’t have any more than their fair share of injuries, I’m still extremely skeptical. Not saying there’s zero chance that “thin air” is a factor but it’s a little sketchy. Granted, I’m not a doctor.
Thin air would be a factor in fatigue, though, right? Theoretically a player who is fatigued is more likely to get injured.
Yes, I’ve been living in Colorado for about 2 years and the altitude/thin air still kills me. My lungs are burning after going up a couple flights of stairs at work. It boggles my mind how the Colorado sports teams (particularly the more “active” ones like basketball and football) don’t just run away with every game because of the “bonus” conditioning they get just by living and training here.
Not sure if serious…
Well, not really. Any sort of fatigue only lasts a few days until your body gets acclimated. That may explain what cxz was talking about in non-Rockies players attributing their injuries to playing here. I know there are quite a few people out there who want to portray Colorado as the moon but it’s really not.
Compared, however, to the rest of baseball stadiums, it is. Coors field’s elevation is 5,280 feet. The next highest is Chase Field at 1090 feet. That’s a massive difference.
This is what I mean. One statistic does not the whole story tell.
Wouldn’t mind seeing him in Seattle, he can’t be any worse than Miller/Taylor.
Surprised to see him linked to the M’s. Just don’t see them actually trading for him.
Yeah I know, the Rockies would ask a lot for him though.
I’m sure that Colorado would like a young SS back, among others, and the M’s can supply that. Pairing him with Cano would give them the most expensive keystone combo in history.
Fangraphs has a story today headlining the 3 front runners to acquire Tulo: NYY, NYM and Boston. While can see both the Mets and Yanks really needing him, I can’t see Boston needing him, nor wanting to spend 20mAAV annually over the next 5 seasons to him, even though they probably could easily just swap Bogaerts even up.
Mets have those pieces, not sure if the Yanks do…and Boston might be sitting on Hamels
The Yanks do have the pieces if they really really wanted him, but I don’t think they really want him at the price he’d take. Too much risk involved and it would hurt their farm more than they’d like right now,it’d take a much more moderate asking price for me to see them as a fit. Boston being linked to him makes me scratch my head honestly, but I guess it would follow their pattern of stacking offense. The Mets make the most immediate sense of the trio, but really I wonder if even they really want to pay that much for the guy.
How’s about Tulo to Philadelphia for Hamels plus…and the Phillies do a quick rebuild through FA
Hamels won’t accept a Trade to that Pitchers Graveyard Coors field.
I’m not suggesting it’s even likely… But who is on his limited no trade list?
Not to mention the yankees could take on the whole contract of tulo thus not needed to give the Rockies as much in return if a trade with them is done
I’d love to see them add Tulo if the price isn’t astronomical on top of the salary take, but I have a feeling COL wants a good ammount more than a salary dump for the guy
No doubt Mets have the pitching which Rockies have needed forever, like Snydergard. Not Gee, Colon or the veterans which the Mets have been trying to pawn off it seems this season.
Rockies looking to build a foundation and it would take a surefire top kid to get them interested and Bogaerts/Snydergard from the Sox/mets is the type it would take. Not say the Yanks couldn’t interest them, it would take a large package deal without impact talent of those 2.
I’ve thought for some time that the Rockies were targeting a James Shields type pitcher to front end around Butler and Gray. I suppose dealing Tulo changes that and pushes back the calendar to maybe build around Arenado. Don’t know…I just don’t actually think they are far from being decent actually…some health and maybe a Cole Hamel’s..etc. That lineup can be good when its out there.
Rockies have had prospects like Syndergaard before. They have a unique situation, though, that makes pitching prospects more risky for them than anyone else (and they’re risky anyway). If they trade Tulo, they may prefer not-as-talented but proven major league guys.
Good point, though they try to develop pitching that both keeps the ball down AND throws hard now I read somewhere? Maybe Fangraphs a few weeks ago is now the strategy after the failure of several top pitching kids the mid-late 2000’s.
When was the last time they had a similar prospect to Syndergaard?
Uhh, now? Jon Gray. Noah is typically ranked higher, but Gray is not that far behind in any ranking.
Gray hasn’t had nearly the same level of success as Syndergaard in the minors, is older, and is a lower-ranked prospect. So I’ll ask again – when’s the last time they had a similar prospect to Syndergaard?
And I’ll reply again, Jon Gray.
MLB has him ranked 17th, to Synd’s 11th. Syndergaard is obviously better, but let’s not pretend that Jon Gray is miles behind.
When is the last time that the Rockies had someone as good as or better than Noah Syndergaard?
You’re changing the question. Similar prospect, and better prospect are different terms.
Better prospect, I honestly don’t know. I don’t follow the Rockies regularly. The answer to your original question is still Jon Gray, though. Baseball Prospectus has Synd at 9, and Gray at 13. Again, not that far off.
I’m not changing the question at all. You’re the one who changed it. Let’s see Gray put up numbers comparable to Syndergaard, who is younger than he is, in the PCL before suggesting they’re extremely similar. They’re both hard-throwing righties but they’re at different levels right now for a reason.
Oh? You’re not changing the question huh?
“When was the last time they had a similar prospect to Syndergaard?” and “So I’ll ask again – when’s the last time they had a similar prospect to Syndergaard?”
And now…
“When is the last time that the Rockies had someone as good as or better than Noah Syndergaard?”
Seems like changing the question to me.
Just so we’re clear, Noah Syndergaard is a better prospect than Jon Gray, however they are similarly ranked.
They’re clearly similar in that they’re hard throwing righties. That’s about where it ends.
Wrong. That’s where it starts. Being ranked #9 and #13 respectively by the agency known for prospect rankings is where it ends. But hey man, if you don’t want to believe them, sure knock yourself out. I’m sure you are much more qualified and know much more knowledgable about the subject matter than Baseball Prospectus. haha
PS: Thanks for admitting you changed the questioning.
Boston could acquire him if they wanted to, and the Rockies would be willing to trade him. I’m not sure how much more budget room the Red Sox have and quite frankly, it would be better off spent on pitching. I could see them being a suitor though if the asking price isn’t astronomical, though I’d say it is even if he request a trade. I just wish the guy could stay healthy. That is the only factor which stops the Rockies from getting a king’s ransom for him.
But who would Boston give up? Pretty much every one except Mujica in that organization is untouchable.
The Red Sox aren’t willing to trade away pieces which hurts their depth at weak positions, hence why they wouldn’t trade Swihart/Bogaerts/Betts. If a Tulo trade were to happen, you would assume it would probably take Bogaerts, one of
E-Rod/Owens, one of Margot/Devers, and a couple other pieces to pull of a fair trade. I’m not sure if the Red Sox, or Rockies, would be willing to do that.
Why would it take 3 top 50 prospects to land him… Bogaerts and not much else
Not enough..You are dreaming
and over valuing Boston p l ayers
That seems like a reasonable trade. I’m impressed.
Boston needs pitching not Tulowitzki.
I said that in my first comment above.
Boston should instead talk to NYM, regarding pitching.
Yea, as a Mets fan I’d love to see a new guy at short. Bogearts is already a major upgrade.
yeah but if they were willing to move Bogaerts, Mets have a glut of quality starting pitching.
As a sox fan, I’d love to see tulo go to the Red Sox and bogaerts goes to the Rockies. Sure you would have to include Owens and Margot or something like that but I’d do it
Or Tulo to Sox, Bogaerts to Mets. That would work.
Ya tulo would go to Boston, Bogaerts goes to the mets then mets prospects go to the Rockies
LOL bogaerts is overrated. Mets shouldn’t trade their young gun for someone like Bogaerts.
Mets aren’t trading Syndergaard. Gee and Neise are the only starters on the block. The future rotation is Harvey, Degrom, Wheeler, Syndergaard, and Matz..
Boston doesn’t lack a bat, they lack pitching across the board. The Yankees have a few players in their system and with Andrew Miller taking on the closer roll, I could see Betances sealing the deal. Betances is a great pitcher, who I would not like to see go, but if it means replacing Dumb Dumb Gregorious with Tulo, I’d take that in a NY minute.
Meh, Tulo is such a question mark health wise, and the Yankees have enough of those on the team right now, they checker their roster this year. I’d rather see them hold onto Didi in the spot(who hasn’t looked all that bad of late, especially defensively) and hope he continues to develop offensively(remember, he’s still young) than empty the farm on an expensive gamble. Plus, Betances should be untouchable unless offered something out of this world, he’s an important piece of the puzzle for them.
Red Sox desperately need bats. They’re awful.
Boston should focus on acquiring an Ace pitcher to help those 4-5 starters
Did I hear someone say Cole !
Just stop that!
Bogart even up would..not be enough to get Tulo
Yankee’s aren’t spending the money and neither is Boston. Technically they both could afford him but neither is forming their roster by acquiring large dollar contracts, currently. NYM are still weighing options, but I don’t see them placing that large an investment in one position. That leaves San Diego as the team that acquires large dollar contracts and needs a SS.
I can comprehend Tulos frustration, but some of that losing has happened while he’s been DL’d repeatedly. I’m also not sure why publicly announcing a possible trade request might help them actually have leverage.
Well, it would put pressure on the Rockies for having to make a decision about trading him and perhaps lowering their asking price in order to accommodate his demands. I’m not sure it would affect the Rockies’ leverage and his desires to be traded too much, but it might make the Rockies wake up and smell the coffee if you wanna put it that way.
My thoughts as well. The trouble isn’t just a trade request.. It’s that the front office situation is disturbing to the point that the locked down franchise player wants out. Sadly, they are about some health and a James Shields/KC type front end guy away from being decent. It’s just becoming obvious he doesn’t want to stay in Colorado. Can’t fault him. I know not many people on earth have the income he has, but most have at least a say on where they labor.
If nothing it would shift the Rockies focus, which is mired at the moment.
He did have a say on where he labors. He voluntarily signed a contract to play in Colorado for more money than I will ever see in my lifetime. How you compare that to servitude is beyond me. Many people work jobs with non-compete clauses, should they leave. Like them, Tulo can quit and choose to take another line of work anywhere he pleases.
You’re making more of what I said than necessary, because I agree with you. How many people even have working contracts.. Let alone guaranteed ones. What I don’t fault is a sincere concern over a persons workplace if that’s truly the case here…even though I have my doubt’s. What I really feel is that Tulo wants a big stage…he practically colluded himself last summer by jumping from the team on a.road trip to Phillie to go see the Yankees…I know he didn’t break any rules, but it wasn’t the most ethical thing. Its ridiculous to play this to the media without consulting with the team in any case. I’d bury him under a keg in Milwaukee if he wants a.deal.
It does seem a bit dirty to air this out in the media if its an attempt to manipulate the team into making a deal at a lower asking price. Unless there has been no other option. This is, after all, the team that took a chance on him in the draft and also made him extremely wealthy…agreeing to pay him well into the future. Also a team that hasn’t gotten him in the lineup more than 106 games recently.
It would also let Monfort off the hook of dealing the franchise player
I’m not sure how many Rockies fans care….Montfort has that hook buried so far in him now. Just a wreck from the top down through scouting..sad
As a Met fan he makes the Wilpons look almost competent
Rox have lost so many good baseball people..some that went back to the teams formation. You know you’re solid when Colorado doesn’t value you and Atlanta snaps you up before you can even hit the ground. Atlanta has been hit and miss on the mlb level lately… But that org has been stellar for a generation
Huh? What are you talking about re Atlanta?
Atlanta has had a scouting and player personel dept that has been highly regarded by those inside the game. Being dropped by Colorado as a scout because of mismanagement and meddling by ownership and being snapped up by Atlanta is like dropping out of community college and being given a.Harvard scholarship. Atlanta has very good baseball people working for it. The top end has seen some change… But the foundation is very solid.
What scout was dropped by the Rockies and picked up by the Braves? Also, the Braves had one of the worst farms in baseball before they sold everyone off this off-season. Since when is their scouting and personnel dept “highly regarded”?
It’s wasn’t just an exodus to the Braves, but Dave Holliday was one.
Its would take very narrow vision not to view Atlanta’s amateur and pro scouting depts as top notch. One or even a few seasons of subpar play at the mlb level shouldn’t detract from a department that perennially put their team in position to win a world title almost every season for 20 seasons. That scouting dept can be taken back prior to 1991 to about 1987. That’s just a fact. Not only could the amateur dept draft impact major leaguers, but the pro side could pick off players from other orgs…from John Smoltz to Bream to Pendleton… Just solid.
While this may not be the opinion of every scout in baseball….its the opinion of many…and the opinion of some even in the Rockies organization. Montfort has meddled to the point that many of the key members of the baseball side in Denver have moved on. These are the guys that built the teams that have won at elevation, and had also built a fairly decent system up until recently when Montfort decided his input even into the amateur draft was needed. It was thought that he might even make himself gm.
The Braves had a bad farm because they’ve been pumping out solid, young talent. Kimbrel, Freeman, Heyward, Andrelton Simmons, and Julio Teheran just to name a few.
One has to wonder when the Nomar Garciaparra factor kicks in with all the injuries piling up and his career just goes kaput all of a sudden with him being owed between 14m and 20m until 2020.. It’s kind of scary.
If I were a team I’d want to have either a move to 1B or DH in my vision. Not just because of Tulos injury history, but he IS an aging SS
Could also play CF. Limited injury risk there.
Sure, just ask Kemp!
Interesting to see the M’s on the list. Not sure if they’re willing to trade cost controlling arms for him though. Would have to be prospects in the lower minor system.
If they trade Tulo, the Rockies will almost have to trade CarGo.
Cargo and his contract make nearly untradeable especially since he hasn’t much the last 2 years. And he’s been injured
His contract is completely affordable. 3/$50 is what mediocre position players get, and Cargo is finally healthy and far from mediocre when he gets going. It’s a risk, sure, but that’s a risk some rich, offense-starved team is gonna take for sure.
If he was hitting, I’d agree with you. But he hasn’t hit since 2013 which makes his price tag exorbitant. It’s no guarantee that he “gets going”.
Nope, that’s where the term I used … “risk” … comes in. But everyone’s a risk. OK, almost everyone. You factor that in when you acquire him. If he were hitting at normal career levels you’d be talking about a massive haul. He’s still only 28 or something and was one of the best pure hitters on the planet.
Last time he showed he was one of the best hitters in the planet was 2013. He has to start hitting for teams to be interested.
key word, “was”.
Not necessarily but more likely the other way around. CarGo is. In a slump so his value is low but he’s healthy so he’ll probably bounce back. If and when, yeah, if Tulo departs, a trade could happen.
The slump is 2 years long now. If he has a hot month or two, the calls will be coming in. Right now, nobody’s sure if he’ll ever hit again.
He was hurt throughout the 2014 season with a pretty nice mix of maladies so that wasn’t really a good indicator. He is healthy now (to the best of our knowledge) but not hitting. If he doesn’t bounce back then, no, there’s no market.
Exactly. And if he heats up, the calls will come.
Wow! You mean there will start being CarGo rumors to go with the Tulo rumors? That’s already been going on for years!
Ha! You are not stymied, you are sarcastic!
However as of right now unless the O’s defense gets itself together and Showalter stops that shift of his. No one is going to help, not even CarGo
Sorry! Just can’t help myself. Having fun is all.
KC has been making Tigers look foolish when they shift too. After the large increase in the use of the shift last year, it seems more players have worked at beating it. All managers are going to have to learn the players that adjusted, and the ones that haven’t. It’s not just Showalter.
Oh no need to be sorry.
If he requests a trade the Rockies are dead when it comes to his trade value. Forget about eating a portion of the contract. What type of players would you get back? Other GM’s are praying he requests a trade.
They don’t have to oblige.
Exactly.
If he does, it won’t be public. And it’s far from a secret that the Rox are likely to trade Tulo and Cargo. Just makes sense. They’re a mess right now but have lots of talent on the way. You want to add talent in the same timeframe as the kids they have, not 30-something sluggers.
That may be the “stated” intention, but all involved absolutely know it will get leaked (intentionally). The request by the player (when its a star player) takes the responsibility of the trade off the organization. They can then claim that they didn’t want to trade him (when they actually did) and avoid totally pithing off their season ticket holders.
There are enough teams that would want Tulo it doesn’t really matter. If you want him, you have to offer more than every other GM.
Does this mean cargo is on the move soon?
Be getting 10 cents on the dollar there. Would be a good move for a team in position to take the chance (Orioles?)
I would love that move!
Have to figure any cash would be the deciding factor on which prospect(s)
If the Rockies brought down the total owed to Gonzalez to 20M – a Reyes or Marin with a Brault should get it done
If the Rockies pay more than half Cargo’s contract, as you suggest, a lot of teams will offer a lot more than that for him.
Lowering the next 2 seasons to 10M each is still a significant financial commitment, and the prospects I listed are not exactly rubbish.
If i were the Mets, I’d trade for Castro to play SS. Instead of Tulo, trade for C Gonzalez to play LF/RF. Once D’arnaud comes back, let him catch. Move Duda back to RF, and let Plawecki play 1st.
Duda in the OF should only be considered in an emergency, like after deGrom was used as a PH.
Castro is not offering much more then Flores, though he has the track record, bad defense, solid contact skills. Not sure if the upgrade is worth 10M plus a prospect or two
Duda doesn’t play outfield. Plawecki won’t play first for this team. Carlos González is worse than Cuddyer and Granderson at this point. Not a well-thought suggestion at all.
Aren’t you the guy that marveled about how great the Mets were early in the season? Look at them now.
Anyways, Duda played the outfield before, very recently in fact. If Davis played well for the Mets, Duda would be at RF right now.
Gonzalez has been horrible so far but that is the point. Take advantage while the price to get him is low. You throw in Granderson and Cuddyer like they have any future with the club. I’m looking long term.
Unless traded, Plawecki is a waste of talent if he sits behind Travis. Let him learn to play 1st base and get his bat going. Again, Plawecki may end up being a trade piece so who knows.
Duda was awful in the outfield. You shouldn’t want to have a terrible outfielder in the outfield when he can play first and not be terrible there.
Carlos Gonzalez has gone through a crippling amount of injuries, he’s post-peak, and he’s so volatile right now Colorado wouldn’t trade him given how much of a discount it would come at.
d’Arnaud gets hurt a lot. Why wouldn’t you want a viable backup catcher when your starter misses time frequently?
Duda horrendous in the OF. I’d trade him before putting him out there. They did that already – it was a disaster.
I don’t see the Pirates as a good match with all the money that is owed to Tulo — especially with big $ needed for Cole, Polanco, McCutchen (?) coming up soon.
No..not likely…if Pirates are in so are KC and many teams. I’m wondering if it will take a third team.
Would have to think one of the young OF and SP would have to go in the deal. Also the small market teams getting playoff money is a resource that they typically did not have. If they actually budgeted for Martin and have Alvarez, Burnett, and walkers money coming available in the coming years it is possible
I’m just trying to imagine the Angels staying out of a chase for Tulo. Why not go ahead and pay a guy to play FOR you.
This may be just what Cherrington was hoping for another option taking the emphasis off Hamels. Bogaerts, Margot, Owens, Craig and Miley for Hamels and a prospect. OR the Sox go for Tulo in exchange for Bogaerts, Craig and Victorino(some salary dump).
The Sox then bring up Marrero or go with Holt at SS. Miley is replaced in the rotation by ERod and BJohnson. Hamels will be a solidifying force in the rotation.
Rockies are looking for pitchers not washed up veterans.
Well, not necessarily pitchers, but definitely young players. They’re pushing reset, not loading up. And no one wants Craig, at all. For nothing.
Bogaerts plus Barnes could possibly get it done
Was hoping to see a “Red Sox fan’s trade” here. Thanks, man! 🙂
That Hamels trade hurts my eyes to look at.
Rockies are going to go for Pitching for sure but who would take Tulo and his contract
Tulo’s a massive bargain. He signed his extension before the recent explosion in FA valuations.
He’s still about $20 million a year for under 110 games a season… That’s not that massive a bargain, especially having struck out in almost a quarter of his ABs this season.
Massive bargain? No way, not even close, not with the injury history he’s had. If he was to put together some full seasons or something even close to it, then maybe it’d be a different conversation because he’s elite when healthy. But that’s a lot of money to pay a guy who just can’t make it through a season healthy.
Yet 5-6 WAR in 110 games and he is not the highest paid at his position…
He’s incredibly valuable when he’s healthy, I’m not trying to take that away from him, but the problem is he’s just never healthy, it’s hard to mark a guy at a high value when you don’t have him for such a large portion of time.
I know exactly what people are saying when they mention his WAR over those 110 games…. But that’s a massive SS hole to fill the 52 games he’s injured, games that could possibly be in the stretch drive.
If you get replacement level play at SS for those 52 games, you still end up with 5 wins of production at the position (which is elite).
A guy putting up 5 WAR in 110 games isn’t as good as a guy who can stay healthy for a whole season and put up 3-4 WAR, imo. WAR doesn’t directly translate to wins.
Amen…its a matter of timing. Hed.have to contribute to a lot of early season wins to override a complete donut for 52 games. And Tulo has missed games in stretches… This isn’t a player that goes 162 with an extra day off a week. He’s anfuy that tears April and May apart and then the bolts go flying.
A guy who puts up 5 WAR in 110 games is significantly better than a guy who puts up 3 WAR over 162 games. This is a ridiculous argument.
Of course WAR doesn’t directly translate to wins. But go look at team WAR totals in 2014, is it really just coincidence that the teams with the most WAR all made the playoffs?
Well, a team had better hope he seriously impacts those 110_games…because despite what WAR is saying about a stat….Thats nearly two months without a teams #3-4 hitter who can play defense. Thats a.big hole…I think we’re assuming further health and productivity as well.
Of course we’re assuming further productivity, he’s been one of the most productive players of this generation.
Scary how good someone can be over 2/3 of a season. I’d be prepared to get him off SS though.
I guess my line of thinking is this. Production is also a matter of timing. If Tulo were out with the Yankees for those 52 games to end the season….they might have to go into the final weekend in a playoff showdown with the Red Sox. There’s no way in hades they want Rey Ordonez Jr. at SS that weekend. You can toss that 5 WAR out because it didn’t occur in a bubble.
If the Yankees don’t get his 5 WAR, the whole hypothetical collapses because they’ve lost Tulo’s productivity, and they aren’t even in a position to play that important game in September. They’ve already lost the division. It works both ways.
True….but I still don’t want to fill out that lineup card without him for two months. It eats roster space if nothing…
Without Tulowitzki’s production, you’ve already lost out on a playoff spot and the lineup doesn’t matter anymore.
In theory, but if another team matches the production someplace in his absence its moot. I think WAR is tricky in predicting wins. It doesn’t just matter who a team plays, but when.
If another team gets 5 wins out of another position, then good on them. That seems pretty secondary to the conversation we’re having. Tulowitzki gives teams a massive advantage as a mighty productive hitter and fielder at a position that doesn’t have another player with his skill set.
I agree. I’ve been looking at it. But Tulo is realistically likely not a 5 WAR player outside of Denver, or if moved off SS. From what I gather…the general feeling is that he’s the equivilant to Hanley Ramirez if moved. He’s a wild card though…could get 30HR 100 RBI Tulo or 88 game 0 WAR over a long stretch Tulo.
There are park adjustments woven into WAR calculations. So he’s a 5-win player with park adjustments.
If he’s moved off of SS (the most demanding infield position) and onto 3B, he’d surely grade well there defensively too. Who is saying he’s the equivalent to Hanley Ramirez? Tulowitzki is world’s better at defense than Hanley. That’s a ridiculous position.
He isn’t a wild card either. When Tulowitzki is on the field, he’s the most productive shortstop in baseball.
Dave Cameron on fangraphs finds it realistic to expect him to be Hanley Ramirez. I’m not saying in exact profile.. I think it’s going two ways now….either the 30hr 100rbi bat is being touted or the injury prone player. The truth is likely I’m the middle. Without going into the sabre splits… He’s probably a .290 20 hr player
Can you find Dave Cameron saying that for me? Was it in an article? A tweet? I think we’re missing some serious context.
Sorry, problems with my email. I saw the Dave Cameron article on the fangraphs site. I’d see many people reference over there. I suppose its still up
Well, the fact that he hasn’t stayed on the field is what makes him a wild card. My wild card reference is also referring to his potential trade value. I find Colorado’s return much more interesting than Tulo. In fact though…..his market is down to 5-6 teams or less.
Watching the Cubs and Mets play. I see a 3 way deal as perhaps likely in a Tulowitzki scenario. Makes me wonder if the Cubs and Mets could be the other teams. Rockies need to get back some offense,.outside of young pitching. Perhaps the Rockies send Tulo to New York, Rockies get back Castro from Chicago and maybe an arm from New York…not fleshed out of course..bit along those lines.
I think Colorado would like to trade Tulowitzki to an AL team so that he can’t haunt them in the NL for the next half-decade.
I’m not sure what a Tulowitzki deal would look like, but the Rockies should get some highly interesting young talent. I’d much rather keep Tulowitzki and trade CarGo, but that means CarGo has to play well and be healthy.
I think the idea of not trading into the same league team get a little too much play. Maybe they don’t want to ship him to LA…but what’s the realistic chance that him playing for New York costs them much. If I’m the Rockies I want the best return…and that might even include LA…let another team shell out the system to rebuild mine.
I think the inclusion of the 2nd wild card complicates things. He certainly isn’t going in the division, but even trading to an NL teams means you’re decreasing your chances of getting 1 of 2 wild card berths for the next few years.
Montfort will demand the best deal or they won’t deal him.
Assumption is Tulo goes to a team that thinks it’s contending this season. Guessing that team is also a somewhat perennial contender.
We’re probably looking at Seattle, both NY teams, and Boston. But they’re going to have to ship more back than pitching…Rockies will want some kind of bat to offset Tulo
Montfort is going to keep Tulo after he demands a trade? Seems unlikely. The Rockies are going to get something interesting for Tulo, but this situation is a little more nuanced than you’re acknowledging.
The Rockies should just be trying to get the most value back into their organization. Pitching, hitting, defense, it all matters, so just get the best players available to you.
Oh, I know it’s nuanced…just more so than a decent comment length on here. Montfort might not have an option no matter how much he loathes it. I’d also not count the Angels out of the mix. Tulo would basically be replacing a weak 2B out of the lineup when they shift they’re SS over there.
The article on fangraphs is called “Let’s Think About a Troy Tulowitzski Trade.”. Its from Tuesday. Dave Cameron’s thoughts are just opinions of course…but Tulo is all over the place on how he could be potentially viewed. The given is that he’s obviously elite of elite…question is how other teams will view him…and how he views them. Some speculation on how he holds up and also adjusts outside of Denver. Very interesting. I mean, there’s a lot of middle ground between the people out there saying he’s worthless and on the shelf all the time and those hailing his WAR…truth is logically in the middle someplace… But that’s still a heck of a player. Knock him back to 4 WAR…still elite.
I agree though…any Tulo is better than none…to a point.
Would say market value…
no one wants Tulo- although the mets should trade Grandy straight up for Tulo. Thats about the best they get.
Tulowitzki’s a helluva player when healthy. His health and contract will make it tough to get good value back if the Rockies decide to shop him.
He’s “thinking about making a trade request”? I say do it or don’t do it. And even if he does request that his team trade him, I don’t see why even that should be made public.
It’s a pretty big life decision, I don’t have a problem with him thinking about it. As a rule you should probably think about things before you do them.
Also, this rampant speculation has been public and building for 12 months now, there isn’t much left to keep secret.
We also have to consider that,all of this is most certainly being taken out of context by the media that chops and parcels statements. My only real issue is that it might be a bit classless to play this into the media. That itself is something Tulo will need to pick up on in a bigger market like NY that thrives on drama in the news.
I’m not going to defend the Rockies organization, they haven’t just lost..they’ve, been mismanaged.
For the Mets I’d give Matz, Montero, and Molina for Tulo. Not giving up Syndergaard after watching him tonight. Even though they just scored 3 off of him his stuff is special. I think he can be the best out of this bunch if you want my honest opinion..
your crazy- Mets are’t trading Matz and they don’t want Tulo. He too expensive, always hurt, and signed too long.
But him strong like bull.
Even though Tulo has 50 point difference Between Coors field and Away Parks , Yankees have the money , But not the Prospects. Mets have the Players but not the Commitment by owners .
That’s doing the math wrong. If you look at how Tulo does in road games, he’s actually the best hitting SS since he debuted.
Sounds from the update that maybe Tulo at minimum needs put his agent under a gag order. If he wants to come to the park and not have it hanging over his head. Having an agent talking to the media isn’t a great idea.
I’m not too sure about that. You are trying to create stir in the front office where they believe Tulowitzki is starting to cause too much drama to be worth keeping. This could work – though the Rockies will be upset if other teams use this knowledge to their advantage. However, Tulowitzki and his agent could care less about that.
I don’t think we should be making presumptions about the motives of Tulowitzki or his agent. This is a complicated situation.
I couldN’T care less about that either. If Colorado can’t keep their players happy and Tulo is being affected by not feeling secure with the team, it should probably addressed.
The front office mess aside…. Colorado could address the situation by simply getting healthy and trading for a #1 to front the prospect starters. But in Tulos defense..this is hardly the organization that drafted him anymore.
I don’t really buy the ability of the cloak and dagger game with other orgs. It’s a.small world….his unhappiness and potential availability isn’t news to front office types any more than it’s news around here.
I wonder if the Rockies would take back a smaller over-market contract from acquiring team to get maximum trade value. Similar to the Braves taking back Quentin/Maybin in the Kimbrel/Upton deal. They could wind up going into full rebuild mode over this, as they shuffle things around.
The Yankees seem like a possible fit. And one of the teams that could afford his contract (especially after 2016). I wonder what prospects Yankees would give up if they could do a Tulo for Gregorius package.
The Rockies have a better guy in their own system than Gregorius in Story. If I were them, I’d go after Severino, Judge, and somebody else.
It’s finally time for the Mets front office to step up, bite the bullet and make a move for Tulo. The window to win is right now, and Tulo will lengthen this lineup in a desperately needed way. Not to mention when Wright and d’Arnaud get back this is a completely different team. Much scarier lineup when it looks like this:
Granderson
Lagares
Wright
Tulo
Duda
Cuddyer
Murphy
d’Arnaud
P
But who would they be willing to give up?
Other than Lagares hitting 2nd (which would go against everything we’ve learnt about optimizing batting orders), that’s a pretty decent collection of position players.
Yup. Package something along the lines of Syndergaard or Matz, Plawecki, Nimmo, Rosario would get it done I would hope
The Pirates will not even think about Tulo if they have to take his full contract. They are already in the middle of some nasty, bitter, contract talks with Neil Walker, who wouldn’t make as much as Tulo does on a new contract.
Tulo
.may be playing 1B and/ or DH
At his next stop.
He’d sooner move to 3B in his twilight years than to 1B. He isn’t moving positions any time soon anyway.
Well I know at least 1 team that would want tulo and that team would be the Mets
not
I would assume the Rockies would prefer to trade Troy to an AL team, so their fans don’t have to see Troy with another team in Denver outside of the rare inter league game, as well as for competitive reasons.
if we look at this outside of the financial aspect, the Mariners really are a great fit on paper. Mariners need a contact hitter for the #2 spot, and Troy is a better defensive SS than Miller and a way better bat than Taylor. The Rockies sorely need pitching help… Both starting and bullpen. What if the Mariners offered something like this —
James Paxton (Trade Centerpiece, would be Rockies new #1 or #2 SP)
Danny Farquhar (Bullpen help)
Justin Germano (Vet SP down in AAA. has years of MLB game experience… Could be their #4/5 SP)
Brad Miller (Young, talented SS replacement for T.T)
Patrick Kivlehan (1st/3rd Baseman, Power Hitter prospect currently in AAA)
Mariners receive:
Troy Tulowitzski (SS, new #2 hitter)
Justin Morneau (1B. 33 in last year of deal.)
Rockies need to rebuild. They already have Willen Rosario who is ready to take over 1st base from Morneau, so they get something for Morbeau before he jets in 2016. Morneau is still killin it with the bat and could help the M’s as much as T.T for a year or two. We could then shift Logan Morrison to platoon duty in the OF and the occasional DH/PH stints. Morneau is 6’4 and a way better defensive 1B than LoMo. He’s also hitting like .320.
It may seem like too big a bite to chew off, but I really do think this trade would immediately benefit both teams… Rockies make big strides to improve pitching and rebuild whike remaining competitive. Mariners are already all in on felix/cano and Cruz and there is no reason not to push the rest of their chips in and going for broke to win a WS in the next 2-3 years.
One last note- If this trade went down, I would also like to ship Chris Taylor down to AAA, DFA Bloomquist and send Ruggiano down to AAA as well, and bring up Ketel Marte to backup T.T and Cano because he has been absolutely tearing it up at every level in the minors. Also time to bring up Jesus Montero who is also killing it. He would do well in platoon duty at DH and possibly even catch once a week so we can get rid of that bum Sucre… May be possible with the 59lbs he lost. Last but not least, bring up Franklin Gutierrez who has been cleaning up down there and plug him in at CF as much as his body can handle it… I want to see him and Austin Jackson compete for that spot because Jackson is a freakin bum.
I’m not really crazy about this deal. The M’s would need to give more – in quality, not quantity.
All I know is that the Mets desperately need some offense if they expect to succeed this season as they hope they will, especially because at this point its pretty much over in terms of holding back the Nationals en route to the division lead. It was a nice run though while it lasted, hopefully the wild card doesn’t become compromised any time soon, maybe and I mean MAYBE Tulo can help
Outside of the Marinere, I think the Mets have the best chance of acquiring Tulo. You guys need a bat and you have some pitching assets you could flip to make it happen.
Even if my below Mariners “rosterbation” scenario doesn’t play out (lol), I still strongly believe that the Rockies will trade both Tulo AND Morneau for young pitching. They may even try to move Hundley… No sense in keeping guys in their 30s if the team needs to rebuild… And the Rockies have some really solid hitters. the three I mentioned could each serve as catalysts for a number of different teams. I just hope that if the M’s don’t snag Tulo, that we bump Taylor down and call up Ketel Marte to be our SS, and that we then pursue Morneau. Morneau may really want to come to Seattle because he is from the Vancouver B.C area and plans to retire up there. Seattle is as close to home as he could get in MLB.
The first bit of advise I would give Troy is to prove he can stay healthy up until the trade deadline.
Then, he and his monster contract, might be able to be traded.
He wants out NOW !
Luis Severino, Didi and Gary Sanchez for Tulo
Thor, Montero and Wilmer Flores for Tulo
Tyler Kolek, Hech and Brad Hand for Tulo
rockies wouldn’t take that
I would say that each of those packages are very light
He hasn’t played 130 games in years due to injury, is a product of Coors and has a huge contract. Maybe the Marlins one is a bit light, but I stand by the other 2.
An A level prospect, a B+ prospect and an MLB replacement shortstop seems good for the baggage that Tulo brings
Giving up Severino for Tulo is a No no. If the Rocks want to pay more then half his salary. Maaaaybe. Thats it.
That’ll be a no, then.
Tulo’s an often injured, soon to be 31 year old .275 hitter away from Coors. Hardly worth the risk and 94 million left on his contract.
.275 is great now a days.
League average is .250 compared to .275 ten year ago, no amphetamines.
The Mets make perfect sense for a trade. They’re in dire need of a SS, as Flores just isn’t cutting it. The Rockies want pitching and that’s one thing the Mets have plenty of. The issue is whether or not the Rockies will demand a king’s ransom for Tulo and how much of his contract they’ll be willing to take on.
I don’t think there’s a rational deal to be made. A peak Tulo, though expensive, might be worth a large return. A 100 game per year Tulo, with declining power and expected age-related decline in mobility, on an expensive contract, is worth very little. Either the Rockies give up his potential return to fitness, or someone grossly overpays.
Mets need him more than any club , which means they will do nothing ! But they will pay a ton of money for aging outfielders.
The Mets don’t need another strikeout machine. The need a solid defensive SS who can hit a little.
SS is a weak position compared to the last 20 year of SSs.
Tulo is almost untradeable at this point in his career, the Rockies will have to pay a lot of his salary.
Tulo should be at the top of a Rockies fire-sale. Now.
Heck, the Rockies and Brewers can get together and split the cost on some “everything must GO!” flyers.
I would cross of the Pirates. Jung Ho Kang is hitting well and the organization is gonna give Josh Harrison all the time he needs after extending him.
Not that I desperately want him here but I do think the Mets have the most to offer. The Padres have 2 prospects left, the Yanks have spent too much time building the farm system, and what exactly could the Ms offer?