7:23pm: MLB has seemingly thrown some cold water on the situation in issuing the following statement (hat tip to Adam Berry of MLB.com):
“We do not have concerns about the Pirates’ and Marlins’ compliance with the basic agreement provisions regarding the use of revenue sharing proceeds. The Pirates have steadily increased their payroll over the years while at the same time decreasing their revenue sharing. The Marlins’ ownership purchased a team that incurred substantial financial losses the prior two seasons, and even with revenue sharing and significant expense reduction, the team is projected to lose money in 2018. The union has not informed us that it intends to file a grievance against either team.”
5:32pm: Pirates president Frank Coonnelly issued a lengthy statement on the matter, stating that the Pirates are not under investigation (Twitter link via Adam Berry of MLB.com):
“The Pirates are not being investigated by MLB and the Commissioner has no concerns whatsoever with the manner in which the Pirates are investing its revenue sharing receipts into building a winner. The Pirates have and will continue to invest its revenue sharing receipts in an effort to put a winning team on the field As required by the Basic Agreement, we share with MLB and the Union each year the detail as to how our revenue sharing receipts are used to put a winning team on the field. What the detail shows is that while our revenue sharing receipts have decreased for seven consecutive seasons, our Major league payroll has more than doubled over that same period. Indeed, our revenue sharing receipts are now just a fraction of what we spend on Major League payroll, let alone all of the other dollars that we spend on scouting, player development and other baseball investments, several areas in which we are among the League leaders in spending. Thus, the Commissioner is well-equipped to address whatever ’concerns’ the Union now has over the Pirates’ effort to win.”
1:33pm: The Major League Baseball Player’s Association has raised concern with the commissioner’s office regarding the Marlins and Pirates, according to Barry Jackson of the Miami Herald. Yahoo’s Jeff Passan had recently reported that the union was considering the idea of going to commissioner Rob Manfred with their concerns.
The root of the union’s concern is whether the two teams are appropriately reinvesting the money that they receive under the league’s revenue-sharing program, both Jackson and Passan noted in their reports. The MLBPA issued the following statement to Jackson:
“We have raised our concerns regarding both Miami and Pittsburgh with the Commissioner, as is the protocol under the collective bargaining agreement and its revenue sharing provisions. We are waiting to have further dialogue and that will dictate our next steps.”
As Jackson notes, it wouldn’t be the first time that revenue-sharing concerns regarding the Marlins were raised. A similar scenario occurred back in 2010, at which point Miami did (briefly) increase its spending; the Marlins rolled out their first $100MM+ payroll in 2012, the debut season of a taxpayer-funded stadium in Miami, only to conduct a massive firesale the following offseason.
Jackson reports that the Marlins are set to receive roughly $60MM in revenue sharing profits this season and could take home as much as $160MM from the league between that sum, the $50MM BAMTech payout that all 30 clubs are receiving and the national television contract. At present, we have the Marlins projected for a $97MM payroll in 2018, though there are likely still moves on the horizon that would impact that bottom line. The Marlins could very well find an offer to their liking for star catcher J.T. Realmuto, and Jackson also reports that Starlin Castro has asked the team to be traded. (It’d already been reported that he was “hoping” for a trade out of Miami, though this is a more formal declaration of his preference.)
Neither the Marlins or Pirates have signed a free agent to a Major League deal this offseason; instead, the teams have been largely focused on trading away big league assets. Miami has shipped out Giancarlo Stanton, Marcell Ozuna, Dee Gordon and Yelich, shedding more than $40MM of payroll in the process. Even with all of those dealings, the Marlins still haven’t reached their target of a $90MM payroll, though moving Castro (and possibly Realmuto) would get them to said point.
The Pirates, meanwhile, have traded Gerrit Cole and Andrew McCutchen, though their focus on acquiring MLB-level assets and the remaining presence of players like Starling Marte and Gregory Polanco seemingly indicates that they’re not embarking on an aggressive tanking endeavor in the same manner as the Marlins.
Pittsburgh seems like a better candidate to step out into the open market and add a mid-range player or two. Beyond the aforementioned focus on MLB-ready assets is the fact that the Pirates have recently opened the season with payrolls in the $95-100MM range but currently projects to just a bit over $85MM in 2018. Obviously, no one would expect Pittsburgh to be a player for a top-tier free agent, but a modestly priced upgrade for the back of the rotation, the outfield or the bullpen nonetheless seems plausible.
The Commissioner’s Office has not yet released any kind of statement on the matter, though the collective bargaining agreement stipulates that Manfred can impose penalties onto clubs that do not appropriately reallocate their revenue sharing profits. Per the CBA, the commissioner’s office can also:
“…require a Club to submit a plan for its financial performance and competitive effort for the next two years. Such a plan must include a pro forma financial presentation that specifies its attendance, revenues, payroll, player development expenditures, non-player costs, and capital spending. The Commissioner, after consultation with the Players Association, may direct the Club to change aspects of its plan, including the level of competitive effort reflected in the plan, or take other actions as he considers appropriate (including escrow of a portion of a Club’s revenue sharing payments).”
This makes me happy that the MLBPA is also like wtf.
So what do you think is gonna happen? I hope, but unlikely, that Nutting is fired or banned.
Haha unfortunately, I don’t think that will ever happen. But it does bring up the subject that hey if you participate in revenue sharing, you sometimes have to try a little harder than growing prospects and being financially thrifty.
Only one can dream. But yea, to build a winning team, you need to both invest in players, and grow prospects.
Baseball currently has a very suspect commissioner.
1000 upvotes. This guy make me long for selig and thats pretty bad
Hated Selig, I’d take him any day over Manfred
Sad, but true
I couldn’t agree more. Quit messing with the on field product and fix the business side.
It’s not like Selig was anything to write home about. Selig’s obsession was money; and Manfred’s is pretending to speed up the game in an effort to attract younger fans . . . to make more money.
If you are a big market team, my guess is that this complaint by the MLBPA doesn’t trouble you in the least. You probably like downward pressure on salaries–but the idea you are writing checks to tanking teams who are going to use money for profitability probably irks you.
Agreed. Not to mention the Cubs and Astros went through a massive tanking prior to winning the WS. I didn’t hear the MLBPA complaining when two big markets did it, so why get upset when small market teams do it.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that young talent pays much greater dividends than over priced FA’s.
Literally every 7 years or so the PA gets mad at the Marlins
Do you blame them???
Right now, yes. I do blame them. No reason to do so with their current payroll levels.
The Marlins and Bucs are doing the only thing a small market team can do to compete with the big revenue teams. Get rid of big contracts that weigh down and build up your prospect base so that in a couple of years you have good young, cheaper players filling most of the roster.
When Loria was consistently running out teams with $15-40 million payrolls from 2006-2010 and then after the fire sale immediately after getting the new stadium, that was a time to question what he was doing. He was sucking the life and revenue out of the team to pad his pocketbook.
Any revenue from the BAMTech sale is a non-issue because it is a one-time payment. It is not money coming from the big revenue teams nor is it something that teams will have in the future. To even try to say that money should be spent only on MLB payroll is not realistic. 50% or less of revenue is typically used on MLB payroll and this will probably be the case for most teams with this BAMTech sales proceeds. The teams have not received that revenue as of today and won’t for several months, so when they do then you can start asking questions about how they spent it.
Pittsburgh being a “small market” team is a myth. They are consistently middle of the pack when it comes to revenue, and add in the fact their owner is one of the top 10 wealthiest owners in baseball – their financial model is based purely on throttling expenses to maximise owner profit. Ownership just isn’t willing to pony up money to compete – simple.
$265 million in revenue. That is about half of the Yankees revenue. Pittsburg has the 22nd largest TV market in baseball.
That is a small market and it’s not a myth, its reality.
So it is OK for the Marlins to get 60 million in revenue sharing and have a payroll of 80 million? They will only pay out of pocket 20 million for the payroll. How is this fare for big market clubs to pay for other teams players with nothing to show for it? And the money they make in TV, and ticket sales is more then enough to cover payroll let alone all the money they make from endorsements and merchandise. Stop defending these teams and look at the bigger picture. They suck
I couldn’t agree more. I don’t get why people are going after either of these two teams. They’re doing what they have to do to rebuild and try to sustain success without having to shell out huge contracts. You can only do that by rebuilding your farm system. So they’re wanting MLB to basically be able to dictate trades? No thanks. If a team needs a player to get over the hump they should be allowed to acquire said player. Whether it’s an expensive, terrible contract or not and whether it’s from the Marlins/Pirates or any other team.
Half of total revenue is the most a team can spend on MLB payroll. Half.
The Marlins are doing that now.
The Marlins TOTAL revenue, including the revenue sharing, ticket sales, and everything else, was $206 million and it won’t be much if any higher in 2018.
It does not matter one bit where the revenue comes from. Manfred could spit the money and it would still amount to the same amount of revenue.
With $206 million in revenue, the most the Marlins can spend on all MLB payroll related expenses is half of that revenue. They are at $97 million today plus insurance that is mandated by the CBA, bonuses, and in season call ups. That puts them at about $103-105 million or abouut half of revenue.
They are currently spending the percentage of revenue on MLB payroll that most teams can spend and stay at a breakeven level financially.
The Marlins are not most teams. The Sherman ownership group took on a tremendous amount debt in buying the team and the debt service means they cannot spend that 50% on payroll. More like 45%.
MLB teams also pay all the expenses for players in the minors, the draft, international free agents, all the coaches in the majors and the minors, all the analytics people, all the training staff and doctors, all the scouts. the international academies, and the 100 or so other baseball operations personnel.
MLB teams also pay for over 1000 employees on average that are not in baseball operations such as groundskeepers, ushers, ticket sellers, ticket takers, advertising sales, sponsorship sales. IT staff, building maintenance, concessions, and on and on and on.
None of that includes front office personnel who also get paid.
Then you have the broadcasters.
You get the point. Half of total revenue is the most a team can spend on MLB payroll. Half.
The Marlins are doing that now.
Back in 06′-10′ the Marlins were playing in a tiny market in Miami Gardens. St Pete is huge by comparison. After the fire sales Loria was actually losing millions every year…..he wasn’t sucking revenue out of the team. The team is actually saddled in debt with how much money they were losing on a yearly basis.
Good point on the BAMTech deal ..Hadn’t thought of it that way.
I am totally unaware of what you are talking about. Are you staying the cba states that there is a ceiling for major League payroll related to revenue? If so, do you happen to have a source?
$60M in revenue sharing and how much have they received from the government for the stadium? I find it imminently reasonable for people to expect more. If you want to run your business as you see fit then don’t suck from the public teet.
Also, the $206M you quote, per Forbes, is less debt service so it’s surely millions more than that.
This argument continually comes up for the pirates and the twins. “They aren’t a small market team because their owner is among the richest.” That is just not how business works. Why should a business owner pour extra, personal, money into a business knowing full well that it won’t actually bring any kind of return on investment to them? By all means, I think they should be using the resources they do have, within the confines of that business, to make the business as appealing as possible in order to drive up revenue… but that’s not the same thing as “the pirates can spend just as much as the Yankees because their owner is a billionaire.” Like it or not, baseball is a business, and the owners are smart enough businessmen to know not to throw other money into the team that they won’t get a return on.
So spend 150 million of that and you still have to 115 million revenue! That’s not enough?? Pirates will never win WS or be serious contenders with Nutting as owner period!
Read about the sale of the team. The Sherman group took on $400 million in debt. That makes it the highest debt service in baseball. The Forbes article you link to was before the sale. There will be another one in April 2018 that will take into account the debt Sherman, Jeter and the rest of the new ownership group took on to buy the team.
wscaddie56, teams have to spend money on more than their MLB payroll. That is part of the business of baseball.
Marlins are easily the worst franchise in baseball.
2 months into the new ownership and you are saying they are the worst? Loria was the worst. Sherman and the people he has hired are following a plan to get them to both profitability and winning in time for the new TV deal in 2021.
I still think it’s the Padres! They’ve been in the middle of a rebuild for over 20 years now!
Mets… big market team with a Muncie, IN financial budget. no champs since 1969. A billionaire who since the Madoff scandal had been super conservative with their spending initiatives. AND i say “initiatives” because they are reactionary rather than working with intent to be a competitive team. Like the team that went to the WS. They were a surprise and management had to be publicly spurred into making in season impactful trades.
1986? Buckner, etc.
Is it me or did the Padres make the playoffs in 05-06? And is it me or were they a game out in 07. 2 out in 10. Wait I don’t like the Padres, but hey facts and stuff and more stuff
Marlins are worst fanchise in baseball?
O’s fans: Hold my beer
Mets fans: Hold my Natty Light
Marlins are the cautionary tale for any fan who dislikes their ownership and wants the team sold.
I keep thinking about that as Pirates fan. A lot of people want the team to be sold, but in the back of my head I wonder, there’s no way someone would move the team after they were sold or somehow make things worse, right? Sadly, not every purchased sports franchise gets the Man City treatment..
The McClatchy amnesia in Pittsburgh is strong.
True but let’s not pretend that Nutting can only spend more OR make an obscene ROI. BOTH are true.
No owner has ever put money into the Pirates because they are a small market team with low revenues and a fair weather fan base.
Only a narcissist with money to burn would operate the team as the fans here want…which is why fans here always want Mark Cuban. But even Cuban said no.
Mario and Burkle are the only non-narcissists who might run the team a bit different IF they could leverage the Pirates and Pens TV programming into their own regional sports network. But the Pens are signed with AT&T until 2028, so…
If you want to argue Nutting is cheap, the evidence is in the tiny things like not offering Gerrit Cole even a modest raise last year which made Cole act like a baby all year, not in the MLB payroll, which is a product of this market.
forwhomjoshbelltrolls…, my guy, while I admire your passion for hating the Pittsburgh fan base, and your repeated refusals to count yourself among them, can we lay off the vitriol a bit for people who, like you, just want their team to try to win. You are clearly well informed and frequently have valid points, and, yes, the “Nutting is cheap” argument is tired and incomplete, but that doesn’t make it invalid, as you also pointed out.
I would suggest that it is ok for a fan to summarize their frustrations as a Pirate fan with the utter lack of positive movement by the front office after winning ~90 games 3 years running by simply boiling it down to “Pirates are cheap.’ Incomplete and over-simplistic as it may be, it is not incorrect. Nobody realistically expects a $200m Pirates payroll, but, when given the opportunity to win, they chose to sell rather than buy.
The simple fact of this current Pirates “non-rebuild” is that the actual rebuild began 2-3 years ago when they let their starting 1st basemen, 2nd basemen, and nos 1-2 pitchers walk only to replace them with…Jon Neise, David Freese, etc.
Having toiled as fans of a team that came nowhere near winning a world series…or even of winning half their games for 2 decades, and then watching as their leadership did nothing to move the needle in a positive direction when given a window, is it really shocking or appalling that fans don’t come out to games or support the franchise as you seem to think they should, through thick and thin? Most teams see that they have a window and try to break through and win a world series. I understand, as i think most fans do (though i think you might debate me on that point), that as a small market team, the pirates can’t blow up the window and run through like the kool-aide man, ala the Yankees and Cubs. Instead, small market teams need to get close with home grown talent and then add in smaller ways in targeted areas, ala Kansas City (Morales). The Pirates, instead saw their window and decided to slam it shut.
The Pirates are no better or worse having traded Cole and Cutch than they were with those two guys. They weren’t winning either way. And that’s ok…but as a fan, it is nice when a team tries to win when they can, and in recognizing that they can’t, then maybe keeping the only guy on the team that fans actually care to pay to see…particularly since it is too late to opt out of season tickets. That is probably just me being a fair-weather fan though.
Very well said. I think this a fair assessment of the situation.
“while I admire your passion for hating the Pittsburgh fan base, and your repeated refusals to count yourself among them,”
First off, let me say that I don’t tell anyone how to spend their money, not Nutting, not the fans. They have no obligation to support the team. I do caution those who think that lower revenues will cause him to spend more are not going to like the result, though.
“The simple fact of this current Pirates “non-rebuild” is that the actual rebuild began 2-3 years ago when they let their starting 1st basemen, 2nd basemen, and nos 1-2 pitchers walk only to replace them with…Jon Neise, David Freese, etc.”
But, the 1st baseman (Pedro Alvarez) was awful and essentially hasn’t been in MLB since. The 2nd baseman had a bad back and they had Kang and Harrison to replace him. AJ Burnett retired (Aramis Ramirez, too) and while it’s easy to fault them for not keeping Happ (though I was on record as wanting to keep him) it’s also easy to see why they wouldn’t want to shell out for him since he was a nobody until they made him into something. Jack Z has said the Pirates were the only team to call about Happ.
So, the narrative becomes how many guys they let go from that team, thus making them cheap, but the guys they let go already had internal replacements, were bad and needed to be upgraded or retired.
But, the Pirates DO deserve criticism for their 2016 offseason, but the real reason why get lost in the constant “Nutting’s wallet!” talk.
They overestimated how much and how early their young pitchers would be ready to help them. They brought in players (Niese, Feliz) who didn’t fit their ground ball/shift system. They stopped buying low on reclamation pitchers (why not get in on Eovaldi or Pineda, for example) and got low ceiling guys like Vogelsong. The money is the same range, but they just got away from the philosophies that made them successful.
I’m not one of those who wants to see the Pirates go “all in” like the 2014 A’s did. A’s haven’t played a meaningful game since and won’t for another 5 years. More teams end up like the A’s than the Royals.
Glad you mentioned letting their starting 1st baseman go. Let’s talk about the colossal disappointment & set back Pedro Alvarez was. If he had lived up to his hype & potential, the Pirates would have contended for a WS. Their problem got the past 10 or so years is the lack of a run producer. If Andrew McCutchen is your power hitter, you have a run producing issue. Every prospect & trade prospect has been either a Cutch-like clone, or a .200 hitting power hitter. Either way, you get a single when you need a 3 run homer, or a ground into a double play. Alvarez missing the mark set the team back. Terrible fielder at 3rd or 1st, .200 hitter with 35 homers & maybe 80 RBI’s. Not a consistent run producer. Normally the Pirates pitching could hold the opposition to 3-4 runs. Normally the offensive would score 3-4 runs. Thus, the problem.
Hopefully, Collin Moran becomes the beast Alvarez never was, Musgrave cancels out the over-rated Cole, & Marte, Polanco, & Bell are solid & healthy. If so, they will be WC competitive, but there are 3 teams in the NL Central all hard to beat to even come close to a WC spot.
Sorry I’m late, I only do this at work.
Yes, Walker and Alvarez could have been upgraded, but the point made was that they weren’t. Walker/Alvarez combined for 45 HRs in ’16, while Jaso/Harrison had a combined 12. Admittedly, many of their other numbers are very similar, but you shouldn’t discount the relative lack of power protection in the role it has played in Cutch reaching for pitches and trying to do too much and his associated “decline”.
Harrison is in no way an “in house replacement” for Walker, as you put it, not only for the lack of power, but for the fact that playing him solely at 2nd essentially negates his value as a utility player, thereby making every other position slightly weaker. I grant you this is somewhat esoteric and abstract, but nothing exists in a bubble.
As for Jaso over Alvarez…its ridiculous. Replacing someone with a limited skill set playing an unnatural position poorly with someone who has a different, but just as limited skill set to play an unnatural position poorly isn’t bad baseball sense. Its just nonsense.
So the narrative only “becomes how many guys they let go…” if you let it or want it to become that. The actual narrative that I think fans are more concerned with is the utter lack of guys they brought in and the lack of front office foresight that, even in relying upon internal options at 2nd and for the pitchers (both starters and relievers), everyone would be ready to step up at once without any issue.
We can agree that the Pirates do deserve criticism for their past 2.5 off seasons at least. What I would suggest though, is that they didn’t “get away from the philosophies that made them successful”, but rather that they bought into them too whole heartily. They believed so much in their ability to squeeze blood from poor pitching stones, so to speak, that rather than the mid-tier reclamation projects on has-beens they went too deep into the well on a few never-weres, namely Vogelsong (as you mention) and Neise in the pitching department. Signing Jaso to play first base largely, as was reported at the time, for his high OBP, is yet another example of over thinking.
Now, whether you think some of that is the cheap owner or would rather blame a GM who constantly flatters himself as the smartest guy in the room, or some combination of the two (an over confident GM over compensating for an owner who, as is his right, wants profitability over productivity), is another matter. The franchise, however, seems content to say toe the line that ‘the franchise players are all in decline, the younger guys failed to perform, and injuries/etc, derailed us. All of that is true, as is the fact that absolutely nothing was done, either with foresight or ad hoc to negate those issues or compensate for them.
It can, in fact both. Most things in life are. The owner can in fact be profitable while still spending intelligently. He can be cheap while still making improvements to the team. The GM can be the smartest guy in the room who helped turn a ~100 loss team into a ~90+ winner, and he can also be the guy that helped turn a ~90+ winner into an also ran.
As for the A’s/Royals, I concur. The Pirates shouldn’t go all in. Going “All-in” was essentially what the Royals did last year and got nothing, or virtually nothing, for their key players leaving in free agency. What the Royals did do, and the Pirates should have done was to go in strategically, and add selectively to address holes. Thats not all in, and it doesn’t lead to being the A’s. One could argue in any case that the Pirates haven’t played a meaningful game in 2 years either. It remains to be seen who is closer to the world series.
Not many sports franchises that have been sold have the revenue stream that Manchester United does. The Dodgers are the only one I can think of.
Manchester City, not Manchester United. Went through really bad rut between 1980s through 2000’s, being relegated all the way down to the third tier, then some billionaire sheiks from UAE bought the club and spent tons of money on it. It came back to being a powerhouse (and the revenue went up while it went up in standings.)
It used to be that the people who bought these baseball teams were those who were, yes, obscenely rich, but also had a mind toward spending money for performance on the field, even if that meant taking a (small) personal financial risk in the process. A baseball team was not thought of being a profitable business, but an enjoyable one, much like horse racing/breeding.
For instance, a good example in this regard is Marge Schott (and ONLY this regard). A better example is probably Ray Kroc.
You mean there might be a worse owner than Eugene Melnyk:(
While this individual situation is undeniably questionable, it will be a number of years before we can assess the new ownership’s strategy. It seems like Jeter and co essentially wanted a blank slate. Whether or not you believe that was the prudent move with the talent they had before this offseason, it was their goal to clean house and build from the ground up. They’re doing just that. I think they’ll actually be a fun team to watch grow after a year or two of what will admittedly and undoubtedly be some rough baseball.
I wonder if this leads to both teams signing a bunch of the borderline starter free agents like Lind, Napoli, Escobar, Bautista, Melky, Aoki, etc to raise their payroll a little bit to make nice and not lose their money
Both teams are going to stick with their plans to rebuild their teams. That is the reality of baseball with the inequality in revenue. The Dodgers and Yankees have TV revenue greater than the total revenue of the 18 lowest revenue teams. The Dodgers and Yankees have more than double the overall revenue of the 12 lowest revenue teams.
Where are you getting your numbers from? They sound way off.
Forbes is one source. They are correct. Look it up. Business of Baseball.
I can understand someone like the marlins’ owners over paying for a team and having to create a manageable budget to get started. But, with their history do they plan on slowly increasing the payroll?
The bucks? Weren’t they normally pretty legit? Idk. I know they are small market, but they had to restock one way or another.
What history? They’re new owners. It’ll take some time to see where their plans lie.
In order to be approved buy the team, they presented a 5-year plan to the other owners and MLB. MLB knows exactly what their overall plan is.
Well it’s new ownership they should be given some time to turn it around just like the Astros.
They are watched the cubs finish last for years just to get top draft picks. It wasn’t right then and now there are copy cat organizations thinking well that must be the way. I say punish them all like they did the black sox starting with Theo and Co. Teams like the Cardinals compete year after year like it’s supposed to be done. Of course they are a first class organization. Don’t win every year but never lose on purpose. Changes are coming!
Changes aren’t coming because examples of the Cubs and Astros winning. By the way you opened a floodgate with the Cardinals “of course they are a first class organization”…
Definition of a first class organization — Team that try’s to win every single year they’ve been in existence. Every team should always do this. There should be morals. The cubs started the tanking on purpose trend now look where its lead us!
Apparently you’ve never heard of Connie Mack.
I gave you an upvote as i am in complete agreement that teams tanking is rediculous, and large market teams doing it with their sabermetric fans blessing are even worse. It is funny that the cubs had to resort to years of tanking in order to finally win the world series. Although the cubs did lose for a century without trying so maybe they just tried to put a fresh face on the losing with the tanking portion of it.
I just want you to know as a royals fan i feel dirty giving an upvote to a cardinal fan.
Being in the middle is the worst place to be! You have to go for a complete rebuild to get anywhere. That’s the best way to be able to compete for a championship
Tanking is not the best way to compete. Theo Epstein must have brainwashed many into believing he is a genius and that’s the way to go. Well I’m not impressed with any team going that way. What happened to the days where in spring training every team thought they had a chance to win it all. I guess people don’t take pride in their teams anymore. Pathetic!
And what happened to fans that railed on ownership for not doing everything possible to win. Instead we get analytics people going insane if a club signs good players when the supposed odds say there is no chance to win. Case in point if the royals had listened to the numbers people the 2014 and 2015 seasons dont happen. Hell they even downplayed the entire 2015 season calling it luck and had the audacity to claim the royals were in worse shape than if they had sold off the team.
Rings with 2 different organizations means he is doing something right. The fact that the last 3 WS winners have done a total rebuild preceding their WS win points to it working and working really well.
Doesn’t matter if you like it or agree with it, it works.
WAR and advanced stats happened. When you see projections that often come true or close to true you think/expect that to happen. If you are a small market team and your young stars are not expected to produce at a high enough level there is no reason to buy tons of free agent talent to come close to maybe competing for a chance at the playoffs. This is also assuming the free agents that you try and acquire are not just using you as leverage against another team. So your bidding just ended up raising overall prices and then you didn’t get the player anyway.
Each of this guy’s comments sound like a tweet by he who shall not be named.
And that’s one reason EVERYBODY loves the Cards so much. They TRY to win every year. And they have won a lot over the years. No other NL team has 11 world series wins. Everyone hates the winners. Yankees in the AL. Patriots in the NFL and so on.
I’m a Cards fan and have been for over 50 years. I want them to win every year and I’m sure Cubs fans, Marlins fans and every fan feels the same way about their team. I’m also realistic enough to know that they are not going to do so every year.. But, I expect them to at least try to put a competitive team on the field every year. And I don’t think Cards fans would put up with tanking, even though it has been shown to work twice with the Astroes and Cubs. As a Cards fan, I made and make fun of the Cubs. But I’ve been to Cards/Cubs games and they are the best to go to because you can argue with Cub fans about almost anything!! Every organization has its warts. The moron in their Front Office who hacked the Astroes being one of ours. I do consider the Cards to be a first class organization….but so are the Dodgers, Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Reds, the list can go a long way. It’s called respect.
Cubs pay into revenue sharing. If they cut payroll, they aren’t pocketing other teams’ $.
You misunderstand the way revenue sharing is done. ALL teams pay the same percentage of local revenue into a pot and it is distributed to all teams based on their revenue.
31% of a large markets revenue is a much larger number than 31% of the Marlins or Pirates revenue, but all contribute to the pool. The Yankees and Dodgers just get less back than the Marlins or Rays or other low revenue teams.
First class at hacking: https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.com/the-cardinals-hacking-scandal-stands-alone-in-the-histo-1791874131/amp
How do you prove “tanking” , so they can punish them?
The Cubs won more games each successive season from 2012 to 2016, ending in a World Series. Define how that’s “tanking”.
Was this a senile geriatric thread?
Reality is, the new Marlins ownership approach makes sense.
It does make sense, but they’ve done themselves no favors by making Jeter the front man. The man clearly has no business acumen or management experience whatsoever, and it shows.
I don’t know who made the final call on all their recent trades (they are all terrible from the Marlins perspective), but regardless, lets not jump the ship on Jeter yet. Whether he succeeds or fails as the front man remains to be seen, however for now, they are in the right to sell off the old assets to rebuild their poor farm system and lack of success at the ML level the past decade or so.
I agree he needs to have a chance to succeed but maybe he should’ve worked in a front office first for some experience. I’m sure the Yankees would’ve found a job for him
If you were looking for work, would you give up a higher position with more pay for a lesser position and less pay?
He was given an opportunity and he took it. He is using his name for marketing.
Michael Hill is the GM! Jeter is the CEO
and only has a 10% ownership stake!
Mr. Mas should of bought the Marlins then they wouldn’t have been in this position because Mas said from the get go he’s not dismantling the team but adding to it!!
Then he would go about dismantling the roster anyway.
Yeah. And then Mr. Mas would check out the accounting department and dismantle the team.
Many of us Bucco fans have been concerned about this for a while. All things considered, it still seems like they keep payroll lower, percentage-wise, than other teams. They do not “strike when the iron is hot” so to speak like other teams do. They did not do anything significant from 2013 to 2015 to get them over the hump, nor after 2016 to get them back into contention. It’s as if they were against some artificial wall of payroll they simply couldn’t cross,
At the same time, I’ll be damned if the Player’s Association is going to step in and complain, demanding teams comply with their wishes, when it’s only based upon them wishing they could make a little bit more money. That is NOT OK.
Hey what do you expect when teams start tanking. Im curious where the union was when houston was doing the same thing i mean we are talking aboit a market that is what top 5 in the u.s. and for 3 or 4 years the astros were running a sub 50 million dollar payroll. Total crap as far as im concerned. Its jist another negative byproduct of sabermetric wizards ruining the game with tanking.
The Astros signed major league free agents during that period, the Marlins aren’t. There is a difference.
Of course they did they still had to field a team. But both the marlins and pirates and a bunch of other teams are tanking i.e. losing on purpose the same as the cubs and astros did. I agree that the marlins and pirates should be punished the same as the astros and cubs should have been. Tanking hurts the game in general and now players are realizing its hurting their bottom line as there is little demand for major league players who can help a team win. I just wish yhe union had been smart enough to realize this when large market teams were doing the same thing.
Cubs and Astros fans would disagree with you. The World Series win and the contending teams they have now are well worth the losing.
@bastros88, the Astros were not adding FA players from anything but the bottom of the barrel in those 3 years they were losing more than 100 games each season. Look at their roster for 2011-2013.
how are the pirates tanking????? trading cole who has struggled and one year of cutch is tanking? get out of here.
Complaint is about revenue sharing teams.
Astros were disqualified from revenue sharing during their rebuild. Last CBA added them, and the Cardinals back to qualifying, but their new TV deal will take them back off of it.
As well the Astros should be disqualified. With their new TV deal, increased attendance and sponsorships, they had revenues of over $300 million in 2017.
With the new TV deal in place, the Cardinals had revenue of $304 million.
The Marlins had revenue of $206 million.
All true facts.
Facts that have nothing to do with the MLBPA’s complaint or OP attempting to compare them to non-revenue sharing teams’ tanking and payroll levels.
They have everything to do with the discussion. The MLBPA has blown it on the CBA and now they are attempting to complain about teams that clearly cannot spend more money and still stay solvent and who are doing the only thing they can to compete in a system with such extreme revenue inequalities.
Wow, intelligent legitimate points made by both of you.
I must say, very refreshing. Thank you for the insight.
I’m tired of my team being a ebt card for the pirates and marlins just for them to pocket the money every year. Penalize them both. The point of revenue sharing is to increase payroll not cut it !
Then you should be ok with the Yankees sharing revenue 50/50 with the teams they play. The Yankees have zero revenue without having teams to play.
They do actually appreciate any catchers you have no use for. I doubt that trend continues with Sanchez though.
If they don’t like it, they can vote for a salary cap and floor system.
How do the NY teams do under a salary cap when they can’t buy rings? Hmm….Jets, Giants, Knicks, Nets, Rangers, Islanders….not so well.
I think the Yanks are quite happy to pay off the various Washington Generals of MLB while they make the playoffs almost every year.
I am often in agreement with your comments. This one more than ever. Moments like this when Yankees fans drive me through a wall.
I dislike your comment.
1. As a Padres fan (obviously), the salary floor is a big deal for me. Needs to be done.
2.. The New York Giants have been pretty successful over the years. They have 2 championships in the past 10 seasons, which is tied for the second. most. They have competent ownership and even in down years, they are taking decisive action. The Jets have always been a joke, and until Dolan sells the Knicks/Rangers I don’t think they will be going anywhere, though the Rangers were in the NHL finals I think three years ago., not that far away.
3. The Yankees are currently the favorites to win the World Series in 2018, but they have only the 7th highest projected payroll this year. The idea that they are “buying rings”, in this era of multiple $200m+ payroll teams, is frankly outdated and does no favors to the main crux of your argument.
PS. I looked at the Padres projected payroll…..somehow it’s deflating in an inflation period. Oof.
Just consider Stanton reparations for your faux outrage on revenue sharing. Hypocrisy much?
They need to create a bottom salary cap, i.e. you must spend this amount of money otherwise you do not get the shared money.
It makes too much sense to shed contracts when you are small market team who if everything hits just right you might be a fringe wildcard team.
So I’m sorry, can someone clarify for me
So every team is given how much by the league to operate on average?
Not every team. The 15 smallest market teams get $40-60 million in revenue sharing depending on their revenue.
Every team in the majors pays in 31% of their net local revenue, and then that money is divided up and equally distributed to every team.
All teams get about $20 million from the national TV deals and the MLB.tv streaming revenue.
The smallest revenue teams like the Marlins, Rays and Athletics have total revenue including revenue sharing and the national TV/MLB.tv money of $210 million or less.
The Yankees and Dodgers are over $500 million in revenue. The next tier consisting of the Cubs, Giants, and Red Sox are at about $430 million. Another tier that includes the Angels, Mets, Phillies, Cardinals, Nationals, Astros, and Rangers range from $300 to $350 million. The Blue Jays should be included at the top of this tier, but their TV broadcaster owns the team and they claim TV revenue at only $30 million instead of the $150+ million the market would indicate it should be.
Hope that clears it up a bit.
how does he get downvotes for explaining how revenue sharing works?
People don’t like it when what they think is right actually isn’t.
That and Trolling in general.
So I guess my downvotes can be discounted ? 😉
I’m kidding!! This is such. Polarizing topic, I really wasn’t trying to troll or whatever… — but if I knew I’d get down-voted to oblivion, I wouldn’t have commented Lol
(I thought I was sticking up for Pirates fans, for what it’s worth — You guys definitely aren’t bandwagon! Respect.)
No doubt during the next CBA debate, they’ll be an insistence by the players to institute a “salary floor”. Tie it to a percentage of revenue, or come up with a new number every year.
Im down with a floor. Especially if it ends tanking.
It wouldn’t end tanking though. The NBA has a salary floor, and the Sixers tanked for half a decade. Really all it would do was cause for tanking teams to pick up more dead money.
Honestly, it would be good for everyone. Big market teams would be able to get out from under more bad contracts, bad teams could take those contracts without as much risk, seeing as how they would have had to pick it up, and it would probably do wonders for this anemic free agent market.
A percentage of revenue would make it different for every team.
Until teams are required to share 50% of their local TV and ticket revenue with the teams they are playing against, there is no way to equitably set a salary floor or a salary ceiling.
Do you think the Yankees or Dodgers will be willing to give up $160 plus million in local TV revenue each year to make that possible?
I think the only way to revive free agency is to create a spending floor. The union should be all over this
The MLBPA will be more interested in increasing the luxury tax levels. That will result in higher salaries than putting a floor in place.
MLB and all the teams knew exactly what the Marlins financial situation was prior to the sale and they also knew the Sherman ownership groups plans in regards to payroll and increasing revenue streams.
Including revenue sharing and their share of the national TV contract, the Marlins had revenue of around $206 million in 2017. The BAMTech sale is a one time influx of revenue. They do not get that money every year.
With revenue of $206 million, most teams can invest about 50% in MLB payroll, insurance, and bonuses or about $103 million which with a MLB payroll of $97 million, that is exactly where the Marlins are today.
The Marlins are not most teams. Because of Loria/Sampson mismanagement of the team and signing of a terrible TV deal, and Loria/Sampson’s alienation of both the fan base and the corporate ticket sales, advertising, and sponsorship base in Miami, the Marlins are under heavy debt and cannot field a MLB payroll that high. The Marlins TV deal, attendance, corporate sponsorships & advertising, luxury box sales, and non-baseball event revenue are all among the lowest in baseball. Because of all those things, the $85-90 million they are shooting for in 2018 is pretty much their maximum and stay a solvent organization.
Jeter and his staff are making inroads with corporate & luxury box sales and sponsorships. Over the next 3 years, they also have ballpark naming rights and a new TV deal to negotiate. Those 2 alone should add $60-80 million per year in revenue.
At this point, the Marlins are better served using the BAMTech proceeds to pay down debt and work on building up the revenue sources they can control.
The MLBPA is a little early to be harping on their payroll for 2018. If it is still this low in 2021 when they have a new TV deal, a ballpark naming rights deal, and 3 years to have worked on other revenue sources, then the MLBPA should be pointing a finger at them. Now is not that time. Let them recover from Loria’s incompetence and rebuild the organization from top to bottom first.
Finally someone with some brains. 100% agreed
It’s not a complaint about payroll. It’s not about debt, TV $ or the one time BAMtech bonus.
it’s about the Marlins and Pirates pocketing “free $”.
Guideline for how revenue sharing $ should be used is laid out in the guidelines of the new CBA. The MLBPA feels both franchises are not sticking to the letter of that agreement..
Read what I said. Neither team is pocketing anything. In fact, the Marlins are still losing money at this point. They need to get to that $85-90 million MLB payroll range and increase ancillary revenues to break even with their debt load.
BAMTech proceeds should not be discussed until the teams actually receive that money. They won’t for several months.
The MLBPA obviously doesn’t agree with you on what the Marlins’ payroll need to be to “break even”. And the author citing some income for the ’18 season seems to back it up.
Jeter himself has said that he will lower payroll until he gets his initial investment back..
The author cited the BAMTech sale proceeds. Something the teams have not received yet and ONE TIME proceeds of the sale. As I said, the Marlins and their fans will be better served by using most of that money to pay down the debt left by Loria so that when they have a new TV deal in 2021 they can spend more of that increase in revenue on player payroll instead of debt service.
Do you have a link to Jeter saying that? I looked and looked and couldn’t find any actual quotes or interviews where he said that.
I’d also like to see that link or is this just more Jeter bashing..
This website (Sept. 3rd) quoting Barry Jackson of the Miami herald.
“Jeter will pay himself a $5mil per year until he recoups the $25mil investment and get a company credit card so he can cover expenses….”
And for the last time; their debt and revenues other than the profit sharing $ are not the issue for the MLBPA. Them being allowed to take on all that debt and borrow so heavily for the purchase is the fault of Manfred’s office, other owners and the Jeter group. The MLBPA is not saying they can’t cut payroll or pay down debt. Just that, per the CBA, they cannot us free $ gotten through profit sharing to do it.
Barry Jackson said that. Jeter did not. In the article, which happened months before the sale was finalized, Jackson quoted an unnamed source.
The entire point of what is really happening went over your head. Sorry. Let’s make it really, really simple.
Teams are businesses. Businesses must make a profit to stay in business. The Marlins are losing money. $50 plus million in 2017.
Their total revenue including revenue sharing and ALL OTHER SOURCES was $206 million. A team can spend roughly HALF of that revenue on MLB payroll, insurance, and bonuses and stay solvent. That would be $103 million.
The Marlins are at $97 million in payroll and almost exactly that $103 million number with insurance and bonuses right now. Because of their debt service, the Marlins cannot spend that much money and be profitable.
You are apparently trying to say the Marlins should spend money from a one-time disbursement from the BAMTech sale that they have not yet received on MLB Payroll in 2018.
It’s stupid to be even bringing this up about the Marlins. Come back in 2021 once they have their new TV deal if they are still keeping payroll at that $85-90 million they need to have in 2018.
The Marlins will still make almost $90 million this year alone!
You do understand that teams have other expenses besides MLB payroll, right? The Marlins will lose $7-14 million if payroll stays as it is today at $97 million.
Businesses do not need to make a profit. Accounting rules and tax loopholes mean even most teams that report losses are still making money. Like many Fortune 500 companies who report losses, the losses simply mean no taxes for that year and less taxes in future years as the losses are carried forward. Teams can depreciate contracts and count salaries paid plus the depreciation as expenses, effectively counting some salaries twice. LOL
Baseball Is an industry that is based on asset appreciation and not profit. Valuations are outpacing robust revenue growth. Like many stock investors look for prices to go up more than dividends
Losing customers is not a great way to increase revenue and earn a profit. Lost attendance revenue will offset salary savings, and they may have devalued their future RSN deal after a few years of really anemic ratings.
Lets face it, this ownership group cant afford to run a MLB team. They assumed too much debt on top of what they needed to borrow themselves. They are paying 14% interest on one loan of 100 million which must be paid in full in 3 years.
Marlins likely are cooking the books and plan to sell in 3 years when they can offer the promise of a new RSN and an overhyped farm system to inflate the sale price beyond what they paid (800 million cash and assuming of 400 million in Marlins debt). If they get 1.6 billion thats a nice profit of 400 million for 3 years work
Everything after “businesses don’t have to make a profit” went right out the window. Not even worth going past there.
To stay in business, all businesses have to make a profit. That is Econ 101. Baseball teams are businesses.
Now try again without something that obviously wrong as your lead-in.
Actually, it’s somewhere between your two positions.. Businesses don’t necessarily need to show the kind of profit that shows up on an income statement. As long as cash flow is positive, one can show a loss on the income statement due to non-cash charges such as depreciation. Publicly traded master limited partnerships (pipeline companies, for example) do this all the time, avoiding taxes for their owners. The most relevant metric for investors is EBITDA/enterprise value. However, without access to cash flow statements, we don’t actually know how MLB teams perform on this metric.
Loria “lost money” every season and walked away with almost $1 billion in profit and he didn’t even have to pay the taxpayers back for his free taxpayer-paid for stadium.
I never understood why the increase in franchise value is not included in the bottom line at any point, even after the team is sold.
Also, this Jeter paying himself $5 million until he gets all of his investment back is absurd. How does he wind up with a share of the team after his total investment becomes $0 5 years from now?
MLBPA has only themselves to blame. They do a terrible job of taking care of 1-3yr players in collective bargaining and as of a result have created cheap replacement labor that is killing off the MLB middle class. Rising tides no longer lift all boats and the sooner they focus on their rank & file they better they will be. Stars have and will always get their $.
I don’t know if anyone has done the math but the dead guaranteed money floating around 2018 MLB rosters has to be at an all time high. With the new CBA, every dollar current and future counts and those past bad deals signed are impacting a lot of teams in 2018. The future is playing out right now for players, do you want years or do you want average annual value, your’e not getting both, simple look at the Cain & Santana deals. Think San Diego is re-thinking Hosmer right now? If not they should…
MLBPA is so out of step with financial reality it’s crazy. You can whine to the commissioner all you want it doesn’t mean he has to impose squat. Whine about the pace of play you agreed to and the commissioner can impose the changes anyway..having followed the agreement. Clubs like the Marlins as such can cry low attendance and play the small market card. MLBPA needs to sit down with owners during the next collective bargaining agreement and vote to implement some type of low and high cap. Here comes the how great baseball is vs the other sports people.
The MLBPA should want the NHL/NHLPA system. Don Fehr negotiated it.
Players get 50% of the revenue (I think the MLBPA cut is 38% now) with a hard cap and a hard floor on salaries.
Also, (and this should interest the MLBPA because of the new younger peak years for ballplayers) players get to (restricted) free agency after 3 years with arbitration as an option, as well. So the elite young players in hockey are being paid after 3 years, not 6 years of service time.
Having a cap floor would force the low revenue teams to spend more (likely with increased revenue sharing) which would bump up overall salaries.
The only reason to oppose such a system would be if they prefer one that allows the big market teams to have a constant competitive advantage to benefit from the increased ratings and revenue that follow big market success.
In the NHL all revenue is shared equally and the TV deal is national only. No local TV. There are no low revenue vs high revenue discussions. They are all pretty close to the same.
I think you are thinking of the NFL. But I don’t think they share all revenue equally, either.
The NHL shares national TV money and merchandise revenue equally (so the Capitals get as much money for each Sidney Crosby jersey sold as the Penguins) but each team has it’s own local TV deals.
The NHL does have a revenue sharing system, but it’s closer to baseball where certain rich teams pay into a pool that certain poor teams (based on revenues, market size, etc) are subsidized by.
The Leafs have FAR more money then the Coyotes, just like the Yankees have more than the Pirates, but the salary cap/floor forces their payrolls to be within about $20 million of each other, instead of $200 gap as we’ve seen in baseball in recent years.
There are no local TV deals in the NHL. There is a US deal with NBC and its stations, the VERSUS deal which includes all the regional sports networks, the NHL Network, and the Canadian deal. All TV revenue is shared equally.
Root Sports is a regional sports network. All of those regional sports network deals are under the VERSUS agreement which funnels 50% of the revenue to the league to be redistributed to the other teams.
Versus hasn’t existed for five years, for one.
Second, you went from saying that all the TV money was shared to now saying 50%, etc.
Teams make their own local agreements and teams pay into a revenue sharing pool which may be where you got the 50%, but the 31 different RSN agreements are not controlled or owned by NBC Sports (formerly Versus). The national deals with NBC, CBC, TVA, etc are all separate contracts.
Get out of here with that garbage.
So all the other teams can lose FA’s every year like your pirates, (who are too cheap to spend) unable to fit under the extremely low, hard cap?
NFL has the best system. And they require teams to spend 89% of the cap ($178 million) over a span of four years.
Nutting is a clown, and failure and doesn’t deserve to own a team— let alone one of Pittsburgh’s caliber and you want to bail him out with a hard cap? LMFAO
NHL has a hard cap because it is the least popular sport in the US, probably right before Soccer and I’m die hard NYR fan (NHL)
If you can afford to buy any team in any major sports league today you are the definition of a financial success. You don’t get enough money to throw down hundreds of millions of dollars or to even be in the place to finance hundreds of millions of dollars if you are a failure. Even trying to claim that makes you look emotional and really stupid and most of your posts are not stupid.
Nutting is the worst owner in MLB— I don’t care if he’s a billionaire. I feel for Pittsburgh fans.
But there are better ways. (Than a hard cap)
Bail him out? If Nutting is the cheap Rachel Phelps wannabe the yinzers claim, a cap floor would be the last thing he’d want.
“NHL has a hard cap because it is the least popular sport in the US.”
So, the NHL has a hard cap because it’s the least popular sport and the NFL has one because it’s the most popular?
Yes. NHL has a hard cap because it is the least popular sport.
NFL has a soft cap because it is the most popular. Yes.
I think it’s worth noting the NBA is somewhere in middle both systems.(not too free like NFL, not too strict like NHL)
Still a million times better than NHL.
Sorry, I didn’t mean for things to get heated, but I think Hard cap is the worst idea. Teams would lose their stars every year, because they wouldn’t be able to fit them under cap
The Pirates current payroll with an incomplete roster is already above what several teams had at the start of last season.
Not that they’ll be big spenders by any stretch but including them with the Marlins seems petty and uninformed. Then again this is the same union that’s been talking about “collusion” as if they don’t own a dictionary and refused to negotiate pace of play because they are mad they got rolled in the last CBA.
Hence Scott Boras’ Eric Cartman like hissy fit…
“When I hear them say, ‘We’re the poor Pittsburgh Pirates,’ I go, ‘Whoa! Just a minute,’ ” Boras said. “This guy (Nutting) is sitting on an economic volcano. Where else can you increase the value of your franchise to $1 billion and not have to win anything?”
Boras then uses math that even a third grader (but not a single Pirate beat writer*) knows is wrong…
Boras said that a 2012 $52 million payroll with $178 million in revenues equals a $126 million “profit”. In 2017, he claimed that $280 million in revenues with a payroll was $96 million (the payroll doubled FWIW) meant a “profit” of $184 million.
Evidently, baseball teams don’t pay taxes, get free flights and hotels, don’t have to pay their employees, etc. Oh wait…they do, don’t, do, etc.
The Pittsburgh media can’t do that kind of math so they reprinted Boras’ nonsense figures without question.*
*For two days, at least. A story that was published two days ago was updated 3 hours ago to remove the word profit. Someone must have explained Econ 101 to them.
Don’t forget the investments to drafted players that have to spend 1-7 years in minors, internacional signees and full baseball schools in many foreign countries to develop cheaper talent, front office cost, and more
Gotta love the NFL with colleges handling the entire minor league process. Lol
I do wonder.. how is it any different than when a team decides to rebuild and gets rid of most of its MLB talent?
Can they check on the Mets too please!
The Mets have revenue of $330+ million. Their payroll should be around $160 million per season. Their payroll was $164 million last season. and $156 million the season before.
6 idiots downvoted the facts. So sorry you don’t like the facts. LMFAO.
I’ll be a man and admit I was one of down-votes.
It’s not that they don’t like the facts. They don’t like the Wilpons. (I’m a Yankee fan and I don’t like them either)
You showed data for 2017. What about data for the past 10 years? (Or immediate 10 following the Madoff scandle, which some of their fans still excuse for their low spending ways)
Remember when Wilpons sold 12 shares of the team, at $20M a share, to pay back $25M MLB loan, and $40M Bank of American loan?
Not for Stadium improvements, etc… but to pay back Loans!
This team is a disgrace to MLB, considering their market (NY)
Nothing’s changed. Wilpons still own the Mets.
I don’t like the Wilpons either. I think that they should have been forced to sell the Mets for their participation in that Ponzi scheme. For several years they really cut payroll $30-50 million so they could pay off their debts with the revenue from the MLB team. I get the Mets fans hatred of the Wilpons.
“Obviously, no one would expect Pittsburgh to be a player for a top-tier free agent”
Not so obvious to me, and that is the root of the problem in Pittsburgh. They just want to increase profits, and have no intention of trying to field a championship team unless it falls into their lap.
You knew this was coming. Teams won’t go over the luxury tax anymore and the Marlins did a fire sale. With all the free agents out there not getting monster contracts the union was going to become vocal at some point.
The problem isn’t with the money. The problem should be that in the last 7 drafts the top player reaching the MLB is Austin Barnes who was traded for Dee Gordon with a 2 WAR. You have to go back to the 2010 draft for successful picks in the first few rounds. If you take away the players traded this off season, then your best draft pick was Jason Vargas back in 2004. So even if the Marlins try to rebuild the track record is not good. The Cubs and Astros had Good Management and systems(Actually the Best). Jeter maybe a Good Player but if his Management skills are a example of his Talent Evaluation Skills and Setting up a system, Miami is screwed.
Yea the new Marlins owners have been in place for such a long time. People on here have no idea what the future will bring and the business plans for the Marlins but jump to statements like this. How would you go about digging out of that mess that was left.
Miami is an embarrassment, trying to run a AAAA franchise.
The ONLY solution to this is a hard salary cap. No way around it.
A hard cap and a floor based on level of revenue would be great. The MLBPA will never agree to a hard cap.
A better solution is a complete revenue share. Instead of teams paying 31% of their local revenue into a pool that is split between the teams based on their revenue, every team should place 50% of all local revenue into a pool that is shared evenly. Then the MLB central pool and national TV and internet revenue should be shared according to the level of revenue of the receiving team. Then you would have revenue that is much closer to equitable and you can put a hard floor and a hard cap.
A floor of $120-150 million and cap of $250 million with each going up based on inflation rates and increasing revenue.
That should make the MLBPA happy.
Of course, owners of teams that are in the large markets including the Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Red Sox, and Giants will never agree to share that much of their revenue.
Without sharing all tv revenue equally, like the other major sports teams, i dont see what can be done.
Let teams move? The Manhattan Marlins and the Pacific Palisades Pirates.
There would be lots of details to work out obviously but a cap/floor system backed by more potent revenue sharing would do a lot of good for the game. Including preventing offseasons like this – at the end of the day a proper system would get most of the league in on most of the free agents.
There are lots of ways to create checks and balances to allow teams the latitude to rebuild or splurge depending on where they’re at. And reforming the journey from 0.000 to 6.000 service time wouldn’t hurt either.
One more Boras quote I loved…
“It’s clearly a matter of choice,” Boras said. “They choose not to (retain players) because they want to make money.”
Teams wanting to make money are bad.
Agents who get every penny for their overpaid clients even if it harms the franchises they sign with for years are presumably A OK.
Nutting is a worse owner than Jeter.
Prove me wrong, Nutting.
Nutting is a bad owner. Still better than 98% of the fan base here deserves.
What’s too funny is that in the past 24 hours the two biggest local media guys pushing the Pirates are cheap narrative…
A) One has been revealed to have been treating his employees as independent contractors and not reimbursing them for expenses and forcing them to pay taxes they shouldn’t, etc.
B) The other talked for the second time about how he won’t buy a new dryer even though it won’t turn itself off and electricians have told him it could cause a fire.
And that’s not the only story about DK…
Yeah…I’m not touching the other stuff…
I just find him calling the Pirates cheap and blasting them for not keeping their big name players and trashing them for replacing those big names with young players ironic given that he’s cheap and didn’t keep his big names (Yohe was his Cutch) and then replaced them with cheap young nobodies.
OK, more than a tad ironic, I guess…hypocritical and pathological is a better description.
He’s everything he claims Nutting and the Pirates to be and he can’t see it.
Jeter only has a 10% ownership stake! Why do people keep saying he’s the “Owner?” He’s only one of many of owners!
If your team isn’t trying to win and is squandering money, the o my thing you can do is stop supporting the team. Ownership will start to feel it if fans truly felt cheated. But they don’t, which is why they still sell tickets. Bottom line is these teams cannot afford to spend outrageous money on mediocre players. The mlbpa is a relic of a time past. Unions have no place in government protected entertainment. I would say end the monopoly protections or end the profiteering. I’m fine with one or the other but not both. Also, fans in Miami are really showing they don’t understand baseball if they expected a new owner to just throw money at the problem. You don’t become a billionaire wasting money.
The idiot brigade is out in force on this post. The Marlins are not tanking nor are they pocketing other teams money. They are attempting to overcome that complete and utter moron Loria’s incompetence. The new ownership took on a 33% debt load and to pay that back they have to at least break even. To break even the MLB payroll will have to be under $90 million until they get a new TV deal in 2021. Get a frickin clue people. Baseball is a business no matter what Boras and the MLBPA want you to think.
You realize you buried your lede, which was a reasonable one, under a load of insults?
Just move the Marlins to Portland and be done with it!
Or make another Canada team.
Wouldn’t they have to change their name to the Salmon?
Any revenue sharing recipient that reduces payroll by 10%; loses the revenue sharing money.
You tankin’, do it on your dime.
Why didn’t I think of that
Excellent response by the Pirates. Should be enough to keep the MLBPA at bay.
Now, let’s see what Yeah Jeets has to say.
Their response is irrelevant since the MLBPA is investigating and not MLB as he references. It feels like an attempt to pull one over on the fans yet again.
MLBPA can investigate all day long, Manfred is the one who’d have to declare the Pirates in violation to impose any sanctions.
Tony Clark is mad he got rolled in the last CBA and Boras is mad that his playbook is now old and tired, so they are throwing a hissy fit hoping to shame teams into spending.
Ummmm, I typed “keep the MLBPA at bay”
Wrote nothing about MLB..
How it “feels” to you is what’s irrelevant.
Sickels just released his updated Marlins farm, they have 16 B-grade prospects. That’s actually a lot, more than the Astros. They are going to end up a top 10 farm at the end of this, if they aren’t already, maybe even top 5 depending if the Nats blink on Robles, not to mention if the fish go all-out and find takers for Bour, Castro, Straily, Prado, Chen and Ziegler.
FWIW cleaning house is what Preller and DiPoto have done, so precedent has been set. It would actually be smart to trade everyone then hit the FA market for 1 year deals to make a lineup worth seeing.
A top 10 farm guarantees nothing. Sickel hands out B- like candy. Much tougher with the A’s and B+ ratings. Bust rates are so high among B-. Show me any 4 in the system who is a Stanton, Yelich , Dee Gordon and Ozuna . That was a decent core there. If they can match that they are lucky and back to square one.
back to square one…for a fraction of the cost (theoretically) freeing them up to spend on assets to round out their roster
Pretty weak Tony C. Might have tacked on a few more teams and mentioned the C word
Yo! Can MLB Please Investigate the Phillies Owners as well?
What a disgrace. Second most supportive fanbase in MLB behind the NYY and their owners have shredded payroll leading to 7 consecutive non winning seasons……. Phillies owners made $80 M last year(2016) per forbes. Likely repeated that sum this past year(2017).
On the pirates – I remember when Nutting bought the team in the mid- late 90s for 92 million. …92 million. Now that value is probably around a billion or so, which was the Marlins sale price.
When Loria had the Marlins, he bought a world series with pudge, Beckett, Sheffield..etc and then blew it up and rebuilt again.
The pirates have had years to use revenue and put a more winning product on the field and refuse to spend. When they were in the playoffs a few years ago – had Cole hamels available at the deadline…instead picked up Happ. Then it was Liriano… Ivan Nova. If the pirates actually a couple of players like the Brewers are doing, like the Phillies, grow those prospects then add – then they could be consistent for a long time. Pirates blew McCutchen and Coles window their by not giving enough extra to win and spend when it was time. I hope that this next round, for both the pirates and Marlins sake, when the next core is ready, they actually try to maintain it.
The Phil’s had a young Rollins, Utley, Burrell, Brett Myers, hamels..all young – then came those, then Howard, lidge, halladay, Lee, pappelbon, etc. Alot of ppl give amaro crap and justly so at times – but he tried to maintain it. Pirates just need new ownership if they’re gonna play mlb. And Jeter needs to be consistent when it’s time to win again.
1) Happ was much better than Hamels after the trade deadline in 2015. 1.85 ERA with a 2.19 FIP for Happ vs 3.66 and 3.79 for Hamels. David Price was also available. Happ was better than him, too. Does it only count as trying to win when it’s an expensive player with a big name?
2) The lesson learned watching the Phillies keep players too long is exactly why the Pirates traded Cole and Cutch now and should have traded them soon, perhaps.
3) Cutch has zero career RBI’s in the playoffs and the meatball Cole tossed up to Schwarber in the 2015 wild card game still hasn’t landed. Maybe they blew their own window.
Here is an idea. End revenue sharing. Put money into a fund that may be loaned without interest for 5 years to teams in financial need. When the team is eventually sold that money gets paid back to MLB teams. If the loan is unpaid after 5 years then interest is calculated at 5% per year for every year after the 5th
Pack you bags players, pack your bag mlb teams. Pack y’all bags. Rev sharing is important. The major contention involving rev sharing is how much is used?
I truly think this is all malarky. Just what were the Pirates and Marlins supposed to do? The Marlins lost Jose Fernandez in a great blow to the franchise. They did not contend in 2017 and they were not going to be better than the Nationals in 2018 and were also unlikely to contend for a wildcard. Look at the roster prior to any trades- were they anywhere close to being one or two years away? So they know they are not going to win in 2018 and are losing money like a siv. The only logical thing to do is maximize the value of your best assets. They got some really decent prospects in these deals and it is not a stretch to say they could have acquired a core group that will make them perenial contenders starting in 2020.
I think the same holds true for the Pirates. They dealt when their prime assets were at their highest value and got a good return.
It makes for both teams to be frugal now so they can spend on FA when the core guys are ready or on team friendly extensions. Remember- the Pirates got all of Andrew McCutchen’s best seasons for a bargain. It makes no sense to pay for his declining years so the Pirates essentially got all of his best years and a legit prospect. That is smart business- ask any GM in baseball if they would like to have a players prime years at a bargain rate and then trade him for legit prospects when it is clear they are declining.
When teams like pirates see a market opening in over signing players in the draft big market teams complain.
Most teams realize that odds are big name fa are not signing with small market teams you have to draft and develope
Exactly. No one remembers this…but the Pirates spent SO MUCH MONEY in the draft that MLB changed the rules to stop them. They own the record for the most money spent in a single draft year in 2011
Can we get just a general complaint filed against the Mets while we’re at it?
The Mets are the best run team in MLB. Take a look at actual profits and the Mets are at the top of the list. At the end of the day- when every penny is counted the New York Mets provide the most profit to their owners. Remember- teams have different revenue streams and different expenses to run. When you account for everything no owners are making more off their teams than the Wilpons. It is unfortunate but they are less of a baseball team and more of a business for the Wilpons. There is a reason they run like a small market team in the largest market. This allows the Wilpons to receive the largest payout at the end of each year.
This isn’t really true in the Mets’ case. The value of a franchise is based more on revenue more than net income. Hence, the Yankees are worth far more than the Mets, in the same market, even if they make less money.
. Hypothetically, the Mets’ owners, by spending $20 million a year more on payroll, might be able to increase their revenue by $20 million. Even though profits wouldn’t increase (and in fact profit margin would go down), the value of their franchise would rise, so it would be worth it.
The Marlins aren’t in this situation, though, because they’re in a bad market (for whatever reason). A $20 million increase in payroll might only bring in $7 million in revenue. .
I’m sorry to say they are the best run team in baseball but they are not winning games and do not have potential to win. No matter how much you profit. you need to put a winning team or you will lose season ticket holders and talented players. No one wants to see Jose Reyes get resigned by the Mets anymore…..
add a payroll tax on teams that don’t have $120 million payroll
The Pirates front office just spews out bs to its fans. They have the money to spend in the 110m to 120m but refuse. The Brewers are a smaller market but are really trying to win. The Pirates player development is horrible also. It’s a bummer to be a Pirates fan.
The Brewers only passed the Pirates in payroll yesterday. Literally yesterday.
Last season, the Pirates payroll was 150% more than Brewers, who were dead last in MLB. 30th of 30 teams.
If someone wants to say the Pirates don’t spend as much as they think they should, fine, so be it, but the Brewers are a questionable vehicle to make that comparison.
Gerrit Cole said something similar in his Astros press conference. Something like “it’s nice to join an organization that continually puts the resources into trying to win.”
Continually? The Astros were winning 50-60 games a year with a $40-50 million payroll for years while the Pirates were making the playoffs. What his definition of “continually”?
At the end of the day baseball is a business. Owners are in it to make money. All players are paid very well. Even the league minimum is over a half mil per. First it’s collision then it’s “hey we don’t think this team is spending enough money on payroll”. The union always wants it both ways.
Now we find out there are no grounds to what the MLBPA claimed. Something we knew all along. Case closed.
“The Marlins’ ownership purchased a team that incurred substantial financial losses the prior two seasons, and even with revenue sharing and significant expense reduction, the team is projected to lose money in 2018. “
I really hope the pirates go under so i can go look for a new team that is focused on winning and not losing