The investigation into misconduct on the part of the Houston Astros continues, with details of commissioner Rob Manfred’s process coming out yesterday. In the newest report from ESPN, Jeff Passan covers similar territory, while also providing further anecdotal evidence of the paranoia that exists in the league around the Astros’ alleged sign-stealing program. One particularly striking example described a starting pitcher who wanted to use a whole new system of pitch calling that would include “jersey pulls, hat tugs, head shakes and glove placements.” The Nationals, for their part, managed to overcome any potential sign-stealing by the Astros during this year’s World Series, though Washington came into those games armed with five separate sets of unique signs to help forestall any extra efforts made by the Astros. They did, of course, manage to win all four games played at Minute Maid Park. While this investigation continues, let’s check in on some player news…
- The Mariners have an overcrowded, if not star-studded outfield picture coming into 2020, with veterans like Mallex Smith, Mitch Haniger, and Domingo Santana competing for playing time with youngsters hoping to establish their MLB credentials (Jake Fraley, Braden Bishop and Kyle Lewis). With Daniel Vogelbach locked into the designated hitter role, they are without that resource for at-bats, not to mention the further overpopulation that comes from rostering the versatile skillsets of Dee Gordon, Shed Long, Austin Nola, Dylan Moore, and Tim Lopes – all of whom are capable of spending time on the grass. Regardless, GM Jerry Dipoto is not tempted to sell-low and trade Haniger, per MLB.com’s Greg Johns. Despite Haniger’s injury-riddled 2019, Dipoto has not softened on his fervor for Haniger as a cornerstone player. Johns quotes Dipoto as saying, “He embodies almost everything about what we stand for and what we’re trying to set up in our systems and our programs.” Dipoto foresees Haniger returning to right field this season and occupying one of the 2 through 4 spots in the batting order.
- Lefty reliever Blaine Hardy has begun to attract interest on the free agent market, per MLB.com’s Jason Beck (via Twitter). Beck names the Twins as one team that has shown interest, though multiple organizations appear to be in on the ex-Tiger. Hardy, 33 in mid-March, was drafted by the Royals, but spent the entirety of his MLB career with the Tigers. After Detroit signed him to a minor league deal following the 2012 season, Hardy would make his major-league debut during the 2014 season, pitching to a 2.54 ERA across 38 appearances. Outside the 70 appearances he made in 2015, Hardy has been up-and-down most seasons, making between 21 and 39 appearances in the majors every year from 2016 to 2019. In all, he amassed 233 appearances across 6 seasons with the Tigers (13 starts in 2018) with a 3.73 ERA/4.11 FIP and pretty even splits between lefties and righties.
The Astro cheating story is huge. It literally covers a lot of different areas from gambling to fans buying tickets to player contracts. If found true all those involved should be banned from MLB for life. Including the players who participated. Similar to the Black Sox scandal.
No
Except it’s the literal exact opposite of the Black Sox. They took money to not win games. The Astros cheated to win games.
I agree it’s serious, and serious ramifications should be imposed onto anyone involved in the organization. But it’s unlikely that any individual or group of players are slapped with anything other than fines.
This is certainly more serious than the recent Braves scandal, and in that case there was at least one lifetime ban. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that lifetime bans are not on the table
They aren’t.
Lifetime bans better be on the table for those in management positions. These people defrauded opponents’ organizations and fans and MLB. Large sums of money were involved. If not felony charges then definitely lifetime bans.
Defrauded organizations. They broke the rules to try to win. That happens all the time. A pitcher throwing a ball at a player either to hit him or get him to dodge in order to have him and other batters stand further from plate in order to increase pitcher’s team’s likelihood of winning is an example of defrauding the opposing team by your thinking and that pitcher should be banned for life.
They cheated and did it a lot and did it well. Give them a big punishment but don’t get dramatic about it with overwrought language.
“They broke the rules to try to win. That happens all the time.”
Says you for intellectually dishonest reasons.
Pitching inside to brush a batter back is not illegal. There is an established convention for ejecting a pitcher who throws at a batter.
Stealing signs is committing fraud. You are pretending to hit under fair conditions when instead you have taken unfair, illegal advantage of the situation. You are misrepresenting yourself in order to steal a fair contest from the opponent. You are defrauding the opposing pitcher, the opposing team, the opposing organization, the fans, and MLB. Fraud.
@spinach. Throwing up and in is part of the game, not even close to defrauding ANYONE. Get real dude. Using technology outside the lines to influence the game inside the lines is defrauding teams and fans, COMPLETELY different than your in-game example.
Stealing signs isn’t against the rules doing so with electronic devices is. At least know the rules.
Although the Astros allegedly used many different devices to steal signs I would argue that sign stealing has been going on since the game of baseball began.
I have never played in the majors but I have played a high level of baseball with many former major leaguers and I can tell you they look for ways to steal signs and gain an advantage every game.
This happens on every team so other teams were trying to steal the Astros signs unfortunately for them the Astros were just better at it and used unconventional ways to do it.
There should be a hefty punishment but not for the act of stealing signs but for the way they went about it.
the argument that “everyone else is doing it” is just silly. The Stros got caught, it will, and should tarnish the names of some guys that I really like. unfortunate.
Duh. Hitting homeruns is a common goal too but players get hefty penalties for using steroids to cheat in getting homeruns. This is another example of blatant cheating. Don’t use an example of legal behavior as a misleading comparison.
I swear these posters just make these comments to stir up debate. Nobody in their right mind thinks it’s worthy of banning for life.
The internet is full of holier than thou characters who probably Never stood for anything
Did you miss the recent Braves scandal and resulting penalties, or is your post the self-aggrandizement you claim to stand against.
Did you not see the Red Sox investigation that proved in 2017 that they were using technology to steal signs? What was their punishment? Oh yeah, fines.
astros still did it after the warning. i see heavy fines on the owner/team. and the managers and coaches? deserve to be suspended for a year or so.
Wait what about the Cubs taking Babe Ruth out to get him sloppy drunk so he was still drunk the next day. They got him so he was still drunk during there world series games . Does that mean they should be tarnished too eventhough the Yankees still won it .lol
Weren’t they actually obtaining players in an illegal manner?! Don’t you think that’s a little more serious than stealing signs?
takeitback
The Red Sox were caught in one game. I think they were probably cheating for months, too, but they were only caught for one game. That’s the difference. Just a fine was probably appropriate. Maybe a one game suspension for each player, the manager, and the coaches, too.
But the Astros were doing this for months. Proven. They defrauded opponents’ entire organizations, fans and MLB for months. Large sums of money were involved. If not felonies, then long if not lifetime bans for anyone from the manager up should definitely be on the table.
Casor-Greener
The Braves were appropriately and harshly penalized such that no one should ever do it again.
The Astros will have to be appropriately and harshly penalized to account for massive fraud involving fans’ goodwill and large sums of money and ensure that an organization and its individual administrators, managers, coaches, and players are deal with in bans, suspensions and fines such that it never happens again.
Put on your thinking hat and you tell me. Is it more serious to cheat and win games right now today and to do so successfully, or is it more serious to cheat with the hopes of someday winning games in a distant remote future.
They did it in 2017 the warning was 2019.
You’re funny. Allegations, without a ruling yet, against the Yanks: Let’s see how this plays out before making any overly strong statements. Allegations against a non-Yankees team, before a ruling: LIFETIME BANS, FRAUD, FELONIES.
They won a World Series directly as the result of cheating. If you don’t think they are going to treat this seriously you don’t understand how much the MLB has at stake. Most likely that banner is coming down.
“Stat-studded outfield” is hardly the term I’d use when describing anything to do with the Mariners. Haha
They didn’t use the term ‘stat-studded’ and prior to ‘star-studded’ there is the word NOT.
Reading can be your friend
You should probably read a little more closely too. Because before “not” their is “if” meaning the author was suggesting a “Star-studded” outfield was possible.
Well, it Haniger and Lewis play to their potential then you could say they do have a star studded outfield.
Yawn.
I know it didn’t actually say star-studded but I agree with your overall point. I thought it was kind of funny to have that whole piece about how ‘stacked’ the Mariners OF is when basically they listed 6 players who underperformed or at least didn’t overwhelm in 2019 as if they were just like loaded in the OF and couldn’t possible find ABs for these guys. Like Mallex Smith batted .220-something. Haniger was hurt, Santana was good but not great. And Fraley, Bishop and Lewis were really just okay in AAA – and on top of that none of that trio is particularly young with Fraley and Bishop you could even argue they aren’t exactly prospects anymore at this point as theyre both in their mid 20s not early 20s. Could one or more of those guys break out next season? Sure but just as easily – fewer than 3 of them could actually produce at a positive value and they could wind up needing OF help not flush with a surplus of it.
Pete Alonso was in his mid 20s lmao. So was Aaron judge when they both won the ROY
Boy you Angle fans are salty.
ps
I spelled it that way because Angels are offended you use their name. They are going to demand you change your name. If you don’t remember Angels in the Outfield? It will be opposite of that but they won’t have to work hard to accomplish it.
Houston Asterisks ****
Everyday that goes by, the more I read, the more infuriated I become over this debacle with the Astros and they definitely have a heaping crap ton of damage coming their way. MLB can’t remove staff, but I would love to see long-term suspensions for staff. Imagine A.J. Hinch was suspended for 2 months? Now that’s a precedent.
What the Astros did challenges the bedrock of ethics in the sport and initially I was not a proponent of stripping their 2017 WS title, but I’m slowing moving towards thinking that they are not deserving of it and every player and personal MUST return any swag associated with the win. As others have said, this is a pretty major story and I wish nothing but the worst for them. I know with absolute certainty something was up this year when they played the Yanks and as I said the other day and as I said during the WS, I think I equated spontaneous moves as being good baseball (I did say that the Astros appeared to be playing on another level at times) and it now appears I can understand why, It wasn’t that they were playing on another level, they were likely cheating hence the unlikely and aggressively timed plays.
Between his and the Ellsbury fiasco, MLB needs to establish new precedents for cheaters and swindlers in the game. They’ve done well with this in the past and I say turn the dial up even more.
You should probably relax and stop following the story. Clearly it’s gotten too personal for you.
Thanks, Dr. Nancy. It’s nice to have an opinion and be passionate about something. If you’re a millennial I’ll excuse you from this because neither is possible.
Nah I’m Gen X, and I’m smart enough to know that getting super passionate about professional sports that is rife with hypocrisy is a fools errand
oKKKay, boomer, keep telling yourself that
I don’t understand the whole “boomer” stuff. Is that supposed to be a slam on the baby boomer generation?
“MUST return any swag associated with the win?” Like go into their home closets and give back their WS sweatshirts? Bans, fines, suspensions – OK. But don’t take away their sweatshirts!
“MUST return any swag”
If that were possible, who would enforce the returning of the swag? Who do they return swag to? What is swag exactly?
There is no way of determining if they would have lost the WS in 2017 but for cheating. MLB can’t and won’t strip their title.
In my opinion, any management or coaches who knew about the scheme and did something to facilitate it should receive suspensions and fines. Players who were actively involved should receive fines. You can’t suspend players who are now on other teams because you create a situation that penalizes their current team after potentially falling victim to the Astros cheating in the first place.
You can fine a player from the ’17 WS regardless of what team they are now on. Fine them the amount of the winnings they received. And as a commenter above said, force them return any postseason swag they receive. No way should they be allowed to promote themselves as ALCS or WS champions.
Mo – I said fine them. (“Players who were actively involved should receive fines.”)
You can’t suspend them was my point.
Please define “swag”.
Re: fines: fair enough.
Swag: Jerseys, caps, posters, banners, baseballs, and any other memorabilia…anything they would wear or display in their personal baseball shrines. I don’t know. Whatever MLB gives them for winning the ALCS and WS.
I don’t see the point in that. Plus, as I asked before, who enforces compliance? You can’t go into their homes and collect the stuff.
Some of that stuff might have been given away. What, they’re supposed to ask their relatives or friends for it baxk??Or if it’s clothing, it might be worn out. Come on. Maybe give back the World Series ring or a trophy if they got one, but all that other stuff just seems silly.
Norah – here’s how that conversation would go:
Manfred: Give me that T-shirt we gave you for winning the World Series.
Player: Ummm, what t-shirt?
Conversation over.
Oh they most definitely can suspend them per the current CBA.
Ok Daynlokki. Apparently I need to be extremely specific. I know they “can” suspend them legally and per policy, etc. However, as I said above, if they identify players who were actively involved in the scheme who now play for other clubs and suspend them, they create a situation that penalizes their current team after potentially falling victim to the Astros cheating in the first place. So I don’t believe that is a fair solution to those teams.
I’m an Astros fan but they really need to make an example of them and give them harsh penalties to discourage other teams from doing what they “allegedly” did.
You aren’t an Astros fan
What, because an Astros fan would only support cheating? What?
No because a lot of teams do it and the only one to come forward is the ace for our main rival in the AL West. Funny no one else that isn’t anonymous has come forward and how are they going to find evidence for a camera.
An Astros fan would say innocent until proven guilty.
Another report stated that former players that are now retired and out of the game have refused to cooperate with MLB in this investigation.
That is telling although not illegal
You guys are smarter than me but who would that be. Who played those teams that would be retired now?
Gattis and mccann
Rotten cheaters. Threaten them with taking them to court for defrauding opponents, fans, and MLB, for the amount of their winnings. Tar and feather them and run them out of town on a rail.
Santana and Gordon are the only players Seattle needs to move this offseason. Moving Santana allows Vogey to DH and gives White the first base spot. Moving Gordon allows Long to play everyday. They won’t get anything for Gordon, and probably will be lucky to get a B level prospect for Santana but at this point their farm is in a good spot.
dipdip heard that the angels wanted to sign gordon and grabbed him to spite his former employer. hope he clogs the mariners for another year.
Angels win total 2014-2016: 257
Angels win total 2017-2019: 232
Mariners win total 2017-2019: 235
Clearly, Dipoto is a terrible GM.
He may not be terrible but can we say he’s good yet?
I used to watch the Ray Rayner show.
I think Dipoto is not a good GM.
dipoto is unethical in that he intentionally ruined angels farm by trading for unnecessary vets. all because the owner sided with the long time manager in a battle between traditional view and newer stat based operation.
angels have spend last several years re-stocking the farm instead of competing in the big league.
Dipoto has shown that he can turn a farm that is dead last in the rankings, to a top 10 farm with two of baseballs best outfield prospects in one year. So while his overall plan and vision cannot be graded yet as it’s only been one season, I do think that based off what he has done so far you can say that he is a good GM.
when you can trade away many of the vets you may once in a while hit a jackpot.
Viz, if Dipoto really did trade away all the prospects before he was fired just to get back at the owner and manager, well I had no idea. Can you give me examples of this? Because I thought the Dipoto and Sosicia issues started close to when he left and it wasn’t drawn out.
Your villainization of Dipoto is getting ridiculous.
why? you have problems with facts?
He might be good for the Mariners. I don’t like what he did when he was with the Angels. It’s all relative.
I’d say the other’s “problems” are more like your presentation of opinion as fact. Facts are empirical. Given that you have provided nothing empirical, nothing you said can be can be considered inherently ‘factual’.
There are plenty of facts that perhaps Dipoto wasn’t, in fact, intentionally ruining the Angels. The biggest of which I can think of on-hand is that he *did not* trade Mike Trout for nothing just before leaving town.
As for what kind of empirical (ie: actual) facts that could be used to appropriately form the opinion you’ve expressed (note that I did not say “support the opinion”), I’d say a some research in regards to his trades between the first reported issue he had with Scioscia on September 22, 2014 until his resignation on July 1, 2015. Were the trades he made in that time disproportionately bad and inappropriate for a competing team coming off a 98-win season looking solidify its rank and position? Could this be true relative of past seasons by the mostly competitive Angels during Dipoto’s tenure?
For an article called “quick hits” this is super dense. MLBTR must be paying people by the word.
Didn’t even mention Kelenic
100% Haniger gets dealt this offseason. Jerry is just building value in it. Hell be packaged with dee and dealt for pitching.
I’m usually not so sure of this sell high vs sell low stuff. Down years and up years become part of the projection.
I think 2022 or 2023 is more likely to actually be any good than 2021 for the mariners unless they drastically increase payroll. Haniger doesnt fit that timeframe.
This is one of those issues where what you or I or anyone not in the Mariners FO thinks is more likely is irrelevant. The window that Dipoto has publicly brought up several times is supposed to open in 2021 at the latest.
Yes, we can have a discussion about whether Dipoto’s goals are accurate or appropriate. That’s just a different discussion.
I give it a 1% chance that he’s traded. He should have been dealt during last years offseason. Haniger didn’t perform all that well, and then blasted one of his boys and missed the remainder of the season. He’d be selling low at this point and that doesn’t do us any favors. Hope he has a really good first half and deal him to somebody in July. OR, and hear me out, we keep him and deal him next offseason when all teams are theoretical contenders. There’s also a 0% chance he’s packaged with Dee.
Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa. “Oh those home run records don’t count because they cheated. They deserve an asterisk and they should never be allowed in the Hall of Fame. Roger Clemens was using steroids. OMG, his stats are due to steroids too! Strip them of their records!” We all heard this or something similar. So if the punishment fits the crime strip the Astros of their World Series title and put an asterick
The issue I’m having with getting overly worked up about the Astros cheating is because guys like Altuve actually played better on the road for much of his career (as did several other members of their lineup) so like yeah – what they did was wrong and they should be made an example of — but overreacting and acting like the only reason they won was because they cheated is just silly in my opinion.
Doesn’t matter what the results were or were not. What matters is they were cheating, deliberately, for a long time. If they did not think it was helping they wouldn’t have done it. They were cheating. Stop trying to cover up and diminish it.
They DEFRAUDED their opponents’ entire organizations, fans, and MLB. Tons of money was involved. Frankly, they should all be charged with felonies for fraud. Bans, suspensions, fines in severe measure will do. They have to be harsh or they won’t prevent organizations like the Astros from doing it again.
So electric chair, firing squad, or guillotine? Tell us how you really feel with that pitchfork in hand.
Well… are you talking about MLB sanctioned punishments and not say the unofficial punishments carried out by the BBWAA? If that’s the case, using the examples you provided as precedent there would be no punishments, whatsoever. The only “punishment” any of those individuals have ever faced is that not one of them aren’t yet (and to date don’t project to be) enshrined into the HOF by the writers (none of whom are under MLB).
The only official asterisk on anything is Bonds’ 756 HR ball that the fan who donated it to the Hall required be left on it.
Almost no one cares about cheating any more. Not sure why.
F the Astros.
F Bonds and Clemens and the rest.
F Belicheck.
F Anyone who cheats to get what they have or where they are.
F Anyone who excuses them.
Actually I think most people do care. Most of the people who don’t care are Astros fans. There are a handful of non-Astros fans but not many. Most people here want harsh penalties for the Stros.
As for PEDs that’s a different story. Old PED abusers are dealt with in that they aren’t being allowed into the HOF. Except for maybe Bagwell and Thome, if you believe they were roid users. Now we have the suspensions for the handful of scapegoats each year. Everyone seems content to assume that there aren’t any other PED users or something, when actually it’s still alot. You wouldn’t have a handful using if it was high risk. They are using because it’s low risk, because a lot of people are using and only a few are getting caught. So on modern PED abuse I would agree with you. Most people don’t care. They are pretending the problem has gone away.
I would much rather have Santana as the DH. Why would Vogelbach be a lock at DH? Santana can hit for just as much power and hit opposite field alot better. Plus he can actually run. As of now I’d trade Vogelbach, Gordon, and Narvaez
No reason for them to trade their catcher right now.
He’s not good defensively. Did you forget they have Tom Murphy and Austin Nola?
Could use Narvaez as a DH if you really wanna trade Santana. Depends on what teams are willing to give and/or if the Mariners are willing to sell low on Santana. I would be willing to sell low on Vogelbach though
Yes. Simply because you or I or Homer J. Simpson wants to trade Player X away from the Team A absolutely means the GM of a different MLB team wants to trade *for* Player X. Everyone knows it’s super simple like that.
It’s not Jerry’s mode of operation to give players away which is almost what he would have to do to trade Gordon and Santana. Both have very little or no value at the moment. Lots of FA infield and outfield options available this year. Why would someone trade an asset for Gordon or Santana ?
2017 – Boston Red Sox were found guilty of stealing signs & cheating also… remember the Apple watches?
the Mets used video cameras in the early 2000s to steal signs
but Houston does it and ban everyone from MLB…
and I’m not even an Astros fan
You’re comparing teams that were caught stealing signs in ONE GAME vs. an ENTIRE SEASON, maybe two or three. Big Difference.
We’re talking ongoing fraud long after they were warned. An entire organization involved. An MVP and a WS involved.
BIG FRIGGIN’ DIFFERENCE.
we’re talking about teams who stole signs for the whole season or seasons until they were caught… if anyone thinks that Boston & the Meta did it for just one game, you need to just walk away
Ya but did they win the World Series directly because of sign stealing?
Haniger will be a good leader for all the young bucks when they are a playoff team in a few years. See ya there Yankees!
Mariners need to trade Gordon, Seager and Santana give more playing time to the young guys
For those who think the Astros are just going to get fines: the Braves lost 13 prospects and former general manager John Coppolella was banned for life for circumventing international signing rules from 2015-17. This is way bigger than many of you think.
Bottom line, none of you really know what the league will do to/with the Astros. Sign stealing is not illegal. If you can decipher the other teams signs, more power to you. It is the use of electronic media to steal such signs that is illegal. IF the league follows precedent, the the punishment will be more akin to what happened to the Red Sox when they used the Apple Watch. But if the league wants to make an example of the Astros and send a warning to the rest of the league, then anything is in play. This is totally different from what the Braves did with international signings and thus that will not likely be used as a marker for punishing the Astros.
Sign stealing using the traditional methods (in game with player eyeballs) is not illegal. Stealing signs using electronic means is illegal. You’re correct in saying none of us ultimately know the outcome. If you read the MLB results, whether true or not, they found there was no Apple Watch but there were suspicious actions taking place with the Sox and Yanks. Fines were issued. I think Manfred knows he needs to make a huge statement with the Astros and that fines won’t be enough.