President Theo Epstein and his cohort have been decidedly mum on the Cubs’ payroll outlook this offseason, with the trade market looking like the club’s likeliest route toward improving a roster that went 84-78 last season. Now, a report is indicating the Cubs are rebuking even “low-budget” free agents due to payroll concerns, with Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic pouring cold water on the free agency hopes of north side fans.
On the subject of a potential reunion with 2019 standout Nicholas Castellanos, Rosenthal had this to say: “Not a chance, at least for the moment. Club officials are telling representatives of even low-budget free agents that they need to clear money before engaging in serious negotiations.”
While that likely feels like a bit of a gut punch for Chicago fans, it makes some sense that Epstein and Co. would make a reduction on their estimated $210MM luxury tax payroll a priority. The Cubs were one of three teams to exceed the tax in 2019, and, while our Offseason Outlook noted that the team only stood to pay a $6.34MM penalty for that infraction, a club can’t be blamed for trying to exercise some fiduciary responsibility.
Still, the idea that even “low-budget” signings would be out of their range likely registers as a disappointment, for the moment. As currently constructed, the Cubs project to enter 2019 with Yu Darvish, Kyle Hendricks, Jose Quintana, and Jon Lester in the rotation, which, at first glance, doesn’t project as quite a first-division group. Elsewhere, the outfield figures to need some remodeling. Castellanos’ mid-season acquisition helped cover for a circumspect downturn by Albert Almora–allowing Castellanos to walk would seem to again require a full-time split for Almora and Ian Happ, two players who, despite some positive attributes, carry a fair amount of risk. The bullpen, meanwhile, arguably calls for improvement at every level.
Obviously, added support to the notion that the Cubs are space-strapped this winter only makes a trade feel all the more inevitable. Kris Bryant stands out as a ready-made palliative to whichever team is sore from losing out on Anthony Rendon or Josh Donaldson. Willson Contreras would project as easily the most marketable catcher on the trade market. Maybe Happ himself could be seen as a viable target for teams in need of a flex outfielder? After the cutting loose of Addison Russell this winter, any of those moves would further signal that the youth movement the club relied upon in its World Series run has begun to shift into a transitional phase.
kris bryant to the rangers
As interesting as Gallo and him playing together like they did when they were younger, I’m curious how much that would cost the Rangers in prospects. Not saying I wouldn’t like it but at what cost? They would definitely ask for Jung and or Apostel for sure along with probably Winn. The Rangers are just replenishing their system and are they actually really ready to compete? That’s my only concern with it. Their lineup has holes that still need to be addressed whether they go for Donaldson Bryant or Rendon. I’m excited to see what happens in the end.
I’m interested as well. There were a lot of Bryant to Texas rumors floating around before the World Series had even concluded. I’m not sure what it would take but if Chicago asked for Jung, I’d probably suggest Texas simply focus on Rendon. Keep the farm intact and just pay the man.
Yeah I agree. I’d love to have Bryant but I’m not sure if I would agree with the asking price even though for the right team he is worth it.
Do the Rangers even have 3 or 4 prospects worth asking for?
Any conversation regarding Bryant is going to include Jung and Crouse.
Winn Jung Apostel Taveras and Crouse are like their top ones
Texas has only 3 guys with a 55 FV rating. All in very low levels. I don’t think that’s what the Cubs are looking for. At least I hope not.
A lot of their guys are young and at lower levels so yeah that makes sense but not every team has a lot of those guys. They have lots of interesting prospects but unproven.
There’s really nobody on the Rangers or in their system I’d want. Certainly nobody worth Bryant.
Bryant packaged with Darvish gets interesting though. Cubs eat part of Yu’s salary, and make a trade mainly for a salary dump. Rangers don’t have to give up as much in prospects, and the Cubs can refine their team as need be. Darvish is still a fan favorite in Arlington and helps gets fans interested again.
Darvish isn’t a liability — the Cubs would be wrong to sell off a couple 5-6 WAR campaigns from Bryant.
Darvish has 4 years and 81mm remaining on his contract, and projects to be a 4 WAR player per FG next year. Discounting by half a win a season, that provides 13 WAR over the next four seasons, which is valued at $104mm at $8mm/win.
Trade Darvish to the Twins.
Let the Twins eat most of Yu’s $81MM salary and take back some prospects who might, eventually, be worth the rest of the projected lost WAR value from Cubs losing Yu, and spend the money save from Yu’s salary on some low-priced free agents.
The Einherl, if the Twins have to eat most of that salary, the prospects going to the Cubs would be very low rated.
Twins don’t eat that salary AND send high prospects. That’s NOT how trades work.
The chance to get Darvish for an $80m commitment rather than having to spend $175m more to get Cole is gonna cost something.
Your “13 WAR over the next four seasons, which is valued at $104mm at $8mm/win” is oversimplified. You have to keep in mind that Darvish is a 33 year old pitcher with a history of injuries. There’s MUCH more risk than your basic calculations indicate. He may have some excess value in his contract (IF he stays healthy), but on the trade market, he has very little value.
According to Fangraphs, the actual value for a player, is 4.2 million dollars per win for a starting pitcher. Teams are paying about 9 million per win.
Darvish has had one year in his entire career over 4, and that was back in 2013. Not saying he sucks, but a 4 WAR is pretty optimistic. A 3 WAR is more along the lines of a best case & realistic scenario.
That’s fair. Even still, I don’t believe Darvish’s contract is considered a liability that would necessitate Bryant to be include to offload. In this market where pitchers like Strasburg, owner of 1 season of 175.1+ IP in the last five years, get 245mm commitments, I think Darvish at 80mm is pretty reasonable.
They never really played together tbh Joey went to Gorman (the rich kid school) and kris went to bonanza (the ghetto school)
problem with Bryant is you dont know if you are getting 1 year or 2 from him…If the Cubs want a max return for Bryant they will have to wait and hope that they get a ruling in their favor.
I agree with this also. I’d rather two than one like the situation with Betts.
In that case, maybe they’d be better off trading Rizzo instead.
Hopefully arbiter rules in KB’s favor. Teach teams to not manipulate service time of elite players.
Wont happen. No shot.
Teufelshunde4
Penalize teams for following the rules? Ya, okay.
Penalize a team for following rules? Teams don’t follow the rule they merely manipulate it to fit their needs which wasn’t the intent of the rule. By actively manipulating the rule they are violating the spirit of the rule and the “operating in good faith” portion. Every situation is different, but Bryant has a legit argument upon that basis. It gets tiresome seeing teams actively attempt not to win, and seeing ownership trying to bleed the well dry on both ends. Service time needs a cut along with getting guys money earlier. The whole system is archaic.
The CBA mentions “good faith” nine times. No where does it mention anything related to what you claim. If the players want changes, they need to negotiate a better CBA. I think Bryant is going to lose his grievance.
Holding a player who was clearly ready for the majors until the exact possible day to retain another year of control is the opposite of good faith. If I were trading for his I’d want compensation if he won his grievance which I think he deserves to.
I think normally Bryant would lose, but the Cubs are on shaky ground because they appeared to hide the fact Mike Olt had a wrist fracture for a couple days and didn’t DL him until the exact day Bryant could be brought up.
Good faith is irrelevant. It’s not in the CBA.
There is legitimately no need to mention it in the CBA. Its funny you’d think it’s not implied seeing as it’s a legal document that governs all collective bargaining agreements. It’s more than just a crock argument in which no legal basis applies, but legal standing in which arbiters could be swayed upon ruling. It’s not that hard a concept to comprehend either.
Of course. On-Cub fans want to get KB, and want him quicker. The Cubs don’t have to bring up any player they don’t want to. Bryant has secured his families wealth for generations. Let’s stop pretending it’s not a business.
And yet the CBA mentions it nine times in other clauses. If it’s always assumed, then why did they feel the need to mention it so often elsewhere?
Teams said they will quit manipulating when players give money back when injured for long periods or poor performance
I take it you’re not a Cubs fan. No?
They can keep Bryant. Sign Rendon and send them Huff, Winn, Taveras, Mazara for Contreras.
Actually never mind that doesn’t work. Mazara makes too much money.
Oh the webs we weave….
Very well said. Seems like a mess in Chicago. Likely the most overrated GM of his era actually.
bovine scat
Guy was a part of ending two curses in his GM career. Nuf said.
If you believe in “curses”, then I already know your baseball IQ
Yeah, think what Florida and Arizona had to go through to overcome their curses
I have said this since the ’17 season ended. Handed a rebuild 2 times, with tanking teams both times, Epstein got top draft picks and a few years later unlimited payroll, he won World Series’. Unable to maintain and develop those players, both teams fell apart. With the Cubs, as it is looking more and more realistic, they are going to give him ANOTHER rebuild, in hopes that he can strip payroll, start over, and target ’24 or ’25. Frustrating as a Cub fan since the descision to alienate and screw Bryant, overpaying for Heyward, Lester, and Darvish were his choices…but hey, don’t forget he broke the curse. While the damage is done with Bryant, and he needs to be traded before the end of the upcoming season, let’s watch now as Maddon leads the Angels to the WS, while we start another rebuild when we are only a couple moves away from being a contender. Upper management and ownership need to cover the costs to keep a competitive product on the field. Or they need to be held accountable. Let’s send Rizzo, Bryant, Contreras away, then blame David Ross and his inexperience and then push an urgency to rebuild to follow….
We have simply put way too much emphasis on his having broken the so-called curses. A lot—a lot!—besides Theo Epstein went into that, including some stars aligning just right. Still, I tip my cap to him for both championships.
Here’s the bottom line for all to understand: he has made more substantially bad moves in recent memory than any GM in baseball (hence the club’s notable lack of success of late, during which they were expected to be perennial contenders, and hence the topic of this article). I would also say that he and his organization seem behind the times for many years now relative to what other teams are doing; his consistently poor decisions seem reflective of that.
Look, exceeding the luxury tax means almost nothing. Even at its most severe, it’s a few million and 10 draft slots. it should not be a determent to a club like the Cubs who are awash in cash. This is merely an excuse for the shareholders to take their profit. Ricketts likely feels he’s done his job, delivered the World Series he promised, so now it’s time to start making money. Theo will be gone in 2 years and Cubs will be back to waiting another century for a winner. What a mighty fall from how things appeared to be after 2016!
Do you invest in things with the intention of not making money?
They purchased Cubs at 900 mill, team now worth 3.1b, seems like a good profit to me in a short amount of time.
not how it works. if you buy a house for 500k and it suddenly is worth a million you dont just have money
If you sell it, you do.
Ha! The Ricketts do not have a liquidity problem! You’re talking like they’re some farming family in rural Iowa.
You can leverage that $1M house for cash.
These guys were rich before owning the cubs. The fact that the value tripled is insane. At no point should this club say that they can’t add without subtracting. Expiring contracts, new tv deal, cash cow around wrigley… no spending is just unacceptable.
The Ricketts are taking following the dewitts game plan. you make more from the bottom line if you keep a payroll not low but just enough to keep people coming through the turnstiles.
So the Cubs are rolling in $2.2B in cash?
It’s not like they just dumped over $1B into the ballpark and the neighborhood. Or bought out almost all of the thieving rooftop owners.
And they were dealing with Alderman Tunney who was turning the screws to them every chance he could.
They completely overhauled the entire farm system and front office. Remember, Jim Hendry’s front office had next to no one in it. They have completely turned the franchise around from dog turd to perennial contender.
Let’s not pretend that they haven’t done anything to re-invest into the organization.
I‘15-16-17 -3 yrs is perennial? Trashed the farm system in equal amount of time, spent and drafted poorly. Never changed the Cubs culture-it’s impossible, it’s like being in an abusive relationship. As long as the fans keep making excuses for the teams shortcomings and putting the FO and below average prospects on a pedestal the abuse never ends.
AMEN!!!
Perennial contender? Let’s wait and see on that one.
Cubs fans will sell the joint out and watch bad baseball. Why should Ricketts spend more? Not a prudent financial move. You don’t generally get to be rich by being foolish with money…..
Let’s not forget the family made their money owning TDAmeritrade which they just sold to Charles Schwab. Ricketts have plenty of damn money.
Of course they’ve changed the Cubs Culture. Our fan base went from being self-loathing saps with no hope to being self-entitled jerks with no hope. People wearing “Just One Before I Die” t-shirts got their one. Can these toxic fans please go back to Naperville and Glenview now?
That’s why the conditions of anti-trust exemption ought to include a requirement that ownership balance profit-taking with having to build and maintain a market-appropriate level of competitiveness. For the Cubs and Chicago, no reason they shouldn’t be required to maintain constant win now mode of operation. None.
The shareholders are getting their return in the increased value of the franchise. Fans have handed the shareholders a fortune already.
Owning a baseball team shouldn’t be viewed as an endeavor for profit, from an ownership prospective. Every dime the fans invest should be put back into the team, along with any other revenue generated. The only time payroll should ever be slashed is if the team is losing money, or they’re redirecting it into scouting and the IFA market. Multimillionaire and billionaire owners don’t need to profit off of fans looking to unwind, likely after toiling away all week for some other rich millionaire’s corporation.
It doesn’t matter if you are a small, first time gas station owner or a millionaire/billionaire, any business has to have a budget with a goal of profitability.
So all that said, the owners shouldn’t make any profit from their investment but keep operating at a loss just so they can entertain you?
This team is insanely profitable.
Seriously, what an entitled line of thinking.
It’s a baseball team, why should I care how much money the owner makes? 90% of teams can easily have a 200 million dollar payroll if they wanted too. Knowing owners are making tons of money doesn’t improve my baseball watching experience
No, not at a loss. The owner of a well run franchise should be breaking even. How much actual work goes into running a team, solely from an owner, where they should garner massive profits?
gata
“It doesn’t matter if you are a small, first time gas station owner or a millionaire/billionaire, any business has to have a budget with a goal of profitability.”
If you’re given a monopoly the rules should be different. As for budget and profitability, all teams are already profitable every year. The budget should start with that fact.
JFactor, entitled? You mean the same way a guy who has more money than he knows what to do with feels entitled to charge half a week’s salary for a minimum wage worker’s family of 4 to go see a game, regardless of it the team is lousy or not?
The budget does start there. There are a lot more expenses involved in running a Major League franchise than just the Major League payroll. If the Cubs continue to significantly exceed the luxury tax, they’ll eventually start dropping into the red.
It’s not about effort, but about risk.
Sorry you hate those who employ you and others.
Maybe we should do away with private ownership and force the owners to sell the teams to their home cities. That way, all teams will operate in the red, facilities will deteriorate, and payrolls will be capped at $60M.
Businesses have budgets. You can’t just spend billions of dollars on your business because you, personally, have billions of dollars. That’s how businesses and individuals go bankrupt, by spending so much money that they make a zero percent profit and break even.
Baseball is a business like any other. The wealth of the franchise or its owners doesn’t negate positive and negative cash flow.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. There’s no such thing as “breaking even” in business. You either made money or you lost money, and breaking even is considered a net loss in business.
Your job is to turn a profit. You cannot run a business without exceeding your cost of doing business, period. I operate two businesses in NYC, one of the most expensive markets in the world to both live and work. Should I lower my rates so that I merely “break even” so that people have easier access to my services, my business and personal expenses be damned?
That isn’t how business works. All businesses exist to make money. A business that doesn’t make money is a failed business. Get a clue already.
Where is the “risk” you’re pointing to? I’m not saying my knowledge is broad on this; but even on lower tier franchises, I can’t ever recall an owner selling at a loss.
At your business, whatever you do, is there a plush luxury box where you sit and just watch your employees work? No? Baseball is not a business, in the same sense other things are a business. I’m sure you probably worked hard to build your empire. These guys bought a franchise, hired some baseball guys, and go watch games. Do they have some involvement, sure. Millions of dollars worth effort? For real?
I have a clue. Whatever they take in, they should put out. I don’t think professional baseball team owner is an actual career, where they’re using the profits the same way you are. I mean if that’s what you believe though…
Entitled is probably the wrong word, but the point is the same. Capitalism is about supply and demand. The owners can charge what the market will pay. If people don’t like how the team is being run or the prices being charged than they have the right to not attend the games, but the merchandise, etc. I agree the prices for games are outrageous, that’s why I don’t go to sporting events anymore. They are not required to make games affordable in the same way that Wendy’s isn’t required to charge less for a burger because you don’t want to pay that much.
So your argument for why owners need to give away their money is because they probably don’t work hard because they have a fancy seat to sit in? That’s ridiculous. That’s called an office lol, every CEO has an office fancier than their lower employees.
Plenty of the owners are incredibly involved in their franchises and work very hard on them. Bottom line is it is their money and they bought the team so that it could make more of it. Who are you to tell them how they should be spending their money? It’s theirs and they earned it.
Are you upset that cities (taxpayers) don’t own professional teams? Otherwise, why would anyone invest money, buy a team, and aim to break even on the company? Others have also argued that the team is now worth more than $2B. True. But it’s not liquid – yet. What if the family doesn’t sell the team for 50 years, instead they hand it down to the next generation to run. It happens. On a sidetone: With the current roster, It would take a 2020 budget of $280-$300M for this team to be serious WS contenders. (Cole and Strasburg).
There are a couple of serious problems with your claim.
First, any introductory economics course develops the concept of opportunity cost, and this concept is explicitly address in the elementary theory of the firm portion of a principles of microecon class. Breaking even means earning the risk adjusted market rate of return on one’s invested assets, which is the opportunity cost of investment, in conjunction with the opportunity cost of the next best use of the owner’s time and effort. You sort of get that, but your claim that breaking even doesn’t even exist is spectacularly wrong as it is the outcome of a perfectly competitive market.
Second, you are making the assumption that the entirety of the return to owning a baseball team is solely the after tax monetary profit that is generated. That is a serious oversimplification as it neglects a number of nonpecuniary benefits that accrue to owning a team. These vary by owner in terms of their substitutability with direct monetary gains, but they are very real, and very much matter in understanding owner decision making.
Among these is the enhanced ability to generate revenue from other assets by leveraging the unique opportunities for other owned businesses that team owners can undertake. “Doing business with me rather than my competitor means you get to hang with players” is an example, as is the advantages that you can trade with politicians for the feel good exposure they get from the reflected glory of the team.
Another more important, but more variable non monetary benefit is the ego factor of being in an exclusive club of owners. Many owners are extremely wealthy, and derive relatively little consumption benefit from simply increasing their net worth by $25 or $50 million because they already largely can buy whatever they desire. But winning a championship or just owning a team has ver little direct substitute, and often just increasing wealth by the amount it might take to win doesn’t compare psychically to,winning.
Every owner’s utility function is different as it includes winning and profits with different elasticity of substitution. Failing to understand how ownership of an MLB team is materially very different from how ownership of almost any other business
Sorry –
… ownership of any other business is to fail to understand how MLB fundamentally works.
You sound like a business professor who teaches but has never made a payroll or ever run much of anything.
Appalachian_Outlaw – the goal of owning anything that is considered an “investment” should never be to just break even. There would be no point of ever investing in the stock market or buying a rental property. Nobody would ever own a baseball team if they couldn’t make money.
Oh come on, owning a baseball team is a business. Fans need to stop thinking with feelings and look at the economics side of things.
Just because a team owner/ownership has money, doesn’t mean they don’t have a budget or limit to spending.
But, it’s simple to sit here and say, “spend spend spend” when it’s not your money or your job.
Stop whining and make something of your career/life, and own your own baseball team or other pro sports team. Stop hating on successful people because you’re not.
Billion dollar investments are covered in risk.
Opportunity costs of investing in this vs other investments that are better. The risk that you have a billion dollars parked in an industry with rapid inflation and means that are largely out of your control.
The idea that you hate businesses owners due to your own ignorant is alarming. Every thing, from technology to the food you eat is brought to you by those who you are hating on with this drivel. You are not owed anything by the owners of a baseball franchise.
You sound crazy
It’s a business first
@appalach Why would a multimillionaire invest in a franchise if all the money taken in is put back into the team? What incentive whatsoever would anyone have?
You are almost right. I have a PhD. In a business field, taught the business of sports for a couple of decades, wrote a few books and published a bunch of papers about the economics of professional sports.
However, I now am the CEO of a private business with more than 500 employees. I’m very certain I know a lot more about both the business of sports and running an organization than you ever will, including knowing what has to be done to make a multimillion dollar annual payroll, but thanks for making a fool of yourself.
Kayrall, it was alluded to earlier in an excellent comment by another poster, but prestige and championships. If you own a MLB team, you’re in a small club. If you win a title, an even smaller one.
The Ricketts, they what, own a newspaper, if I’m not mistaken, correct? That’s where they make their money. I’m not suggesting they spend to no end, or dip into their newspaper profits. I’m saying baseball owners should invest the revenue a team generates fully back into the team. The revenue is the budget. Why do some people find this idea so crazy? I just don’t see owning a baseball team as a business. It’s a hobby. It’s a very unique thing. I don’t think you can own another type of business and say because I need to do “X, Y and Z to keep food on my table” that you can compare it to a owning a pro team. If you have to manage a sports team to provide income for yourself the way a business owner does, you really don’t have the funds to own a sports team.
What kind of fan watches baseball for the business aspect?
MLB needs to own all the teams and squeeze out the parasite owners.
So you want professional wrestling. Good to know.
Why stop at MLB? Just cede each team to the federal government and regulate wins and losses too and that’ll provide an even playing field for sure
Intelligent ones.
The question is why do the ricketts not go for 2-3 years a bit into the red and then get that money back in the next tank period? I can understand not wanting to lose money in the long run but say your break even point is 170m, why not pay 200m for the last 3 years of the window and you lose 90m and then after the window you lower the payrol to 100m for 3 years and then you have made profit over 6 years.
The cubs now have a historically great core and the next wave of prospects is going to be way worse so why not go all in the next 3 years, win another WS and then do another tank job to replenish the farm and make up for the list money?
The question is why do the ricketts not go for 2-3 years a bit into the red and then get that money back in the next tank period? I can understand not wanting to lose money in the long run but say your break even point is 170m, why not pay 200m for the last 3 years of the window and you lose 90m and then after the window you lower the payrol to 100m for 3 years and then you have made profit over 6 years.
The cubs now have a historically great core and the next wave of prospects is going to be way worse so why not go all in the next 3 years, win another WS and then do another tank job to replenish the farm and make up for the list money?
I actually spent 30 years in business. 20 years in corporate senior management, 10 as a small business owner. And very successful.
All this business talk to justify owners saving a few million on luxury taxes and denying their customers a solid run at the postseason is total crap, everyday schmoes making idiots of themselves by mindlessly defending the rich, as if the rich would do the same for them. HA! The argument is that the owners can’t spend these tax dollars because otherwise they might operate in the red. This is the BS that is being spread to defend this nonsense. NO ONE IS IN JEOPARDY OF RUNNING IN THE RED OVER A FEW MILLION IN LUXURY TAX DOLLARS. NO ONE. Stop defending the rich with ludicrous arguments. Just stop it. They would sooner eliminate your job (they are not job creators, they are job killers; they create jobs begrudgingly and kill them gleefully) and strip you of your assets than bestow upon you any meaningful assistance. They eat and spit out people like you every damn second of the day. Jesus, get a clue.
I have 3 responses to that. Sports is a different animal. First of all, I would want to win. Second, winning creates even more revenue opportunities. And, third, they are making a nice profit even going well over the luxury tax, believe me. It’s not as if they break even if they go out and sign Cole. They still make money. Lots of it.
I don’t think it’s best practice to sign contracts like the Jason Heyward contract and the Lester contract and the Darvish contract (see a pattern) every time they become available. I mean there has to be some sort of player development/draft function that can offset this, and the short answer here is the Cubs don’t do that from a SP perspective. They’ve unloaded future everyday players the “now” and have lost their bet. Gleyber, Eloy, Dylan Cease. These guys could’ve been long term assets. “Cubs won a WS bc of Chapman..” Maybe? but now they have to watch an all star play on another team every year bc of it. Eloy already looks like a potential HR leader.
Jason Heyward a part of another rebuild. Defense wins championships.
Not when that defense was always a massive overpay that’s now hamstringing the budget.
Heyward is trash and his contract is a sunk cost. He is the cautionary tale of investing top much into WAR only.
If the Cubs could dump Heyward and pay only $0/$0/$12.25/$12.25 and ($2.5/$2.5/$2.5/$2.5 on the deferrals), what prospect/player would the team be willing to surrender to make that happen?
The Cubs would have to pay 2/3 of the remaining salary and all of the signing bonus. They might get a couple of lottery picks.
Yeah maybe, since he’ll be around for like another 7 years
Dylan Cease has done nothing yet. You cant include him in the discussion of glayber or eloy.
That’s baseball started with the Marlins in the 90’s you sign crazy contracts win a WS then strip your team and tank for 3-6 yrs build again then do the same.
They haven’t been doing that from a pitching perspective, period. Their lack of development has affected their bullpen just as much as it has their starting rotation, and now their ‘pen is in even worse shape than their questionable rotation.
Pretty easy to spend someone else’s money when you have no skin in the game.
They’ve made billions in the increased value of the club. They can’t cash that until they sell the club, but it’s there. They make hundreds of millions a year. They are basically gifted a monopoly by the fans. They should owe those fans a win now mode franchise year in year out for the money they have made and continue to make for the owners. It IS the fans money, THEIR skin in the game, we are talking about.
They don’t care about winning. Money is what drives them.
That sounds more like the Dodgers, the Cubs actually did what they needed to do to win their WS.
If every team did that, nothing would change.
I don’t know much about the Cubs owners and their motives. I can tell you tho as a Giants fan, who ownership group has tried to keep a respectable team on the field each year after their trio of WS wins, its very hard to do. Obviously the Giants have failed for the last few years. But at least our owners have tried to trade for big names (Stanton) or “buy” big FA names (Harper) and those deals didn’t go their way. With big contracts (like most of the Cubs rotation guys) there only so much you can try to do each year to keep your team “fresh” and competitive for your fan base. I do agree that wealthy teams have an obligation to their fan base who greatly contributed to building that wealth, but to what extent? I don’t know.
This is how millionaires become billionaires & billionaires become multi billionaires. Greed is good according to some people.
I can say, at this moment, as a lifelong Cub fan, that this theory makes my heart hurt, angry, fearful, sad, frustrated, betrayed, and deceived all at once. As true as all of this feels right now, it is the thought of going another 100 that cuts to my very core. I hate you for saying it, but, I love you for presenting all of my worst fears into one short, simple paragraph….I hope you are wrong wrong wrong!
Looks like KB is on the block
Just like the Mets, (and they infuriate me) I find it a joke when these big market teams claim oh we can’t afford things, really? The cubs? Not like they printing money out of their fans smh.
I know, right. They are gifted a monopoly, they make hundreds of millions of dollars, and we are supposed to accept that they want to save a few million for fiscal responsibility? Puhlease. And risk the postseason hopes of the team? A big FU to the fans who give those owners a tremendous living. Great.
To be fair, until very recently the Mets’ finances were being strained by an outside factor.
The Cubs serve as a cautionary tale for every fan begging their team to tear it all down, tank, and rebuild. Yes they won a World Series and gave their fans some amazing memories, but I’d imagine feeling short changed as a Cubs fan if I had to sit through that rebuild only to hear about payroll restrictions and Kris Bryant trade rumors a couple years later.
It’s more of a cautionary tale not to shortchange pitching development during your rebuilding years. A balanced approach is best, and If anything, you should be focusing MORE on developing pitching than offense rather than the other way around.
this is a reason the royals drafted so many college aged pitchers in 2018. dayton moore knows pitching is the currency of baseball. Two of those pitchers were promoted to AA this past year (2019 season).
I think there are plenty of fans of a LOT of teams that’d happily take 1 World Series win and a few years of contention compared to what they have now…
I think you’re also overlooking the actual problem. The tear down/tank/rebuild portion worked; that’s not the reason they are in this spot. They are in this spot because they haven’t been able to maintain what they built due to severely mismanaging their funds and giving out way too much money to the wrong players.
bUt tHe CuBs PriNt mOnEy
Remember when the new TV contract was gonna get the Cubs Bryce Harper and Gerrit Cole? Good times.
They were never getting Harper. They never wanted Harper. There was no place for harper to play.
K.
Harper was confirmed to the Cubs when he named his dog Wrigley.
He never even talked to the cubs. At the cubs convention last year a fans asked If they were gonna sign harper KB flat out said no. He named his dog Wrigley because he loved playing there as a visitor.
He absolutely did talk to the Cubs. They had a sit down meeting with him about a month before he signed for Philadelphia. That doesn’t happen if they never wanted him.
They wanted Harper, just like you want ice cream after eating cake following a big steak dinner. But just because you want it, doesn’t mean you can have it. If Ricketts had allowed Theo to enter that bidding, I’m sure they would. They need some edge to that team.
I like ice cream after cake and steak
Thank God they didn’t sign Harper, what an over rated guy to get such a contract!
Thank God they didnt get Harper. Would have just been the next waste of money and the next restricting move for fans to complain about.
They print it and take it to the bank
Wave after wave of talented prospects will keep Cubs in contention for a generation.
“Wave after wave of talented prospects will keep Cubs in contention for 3 years.”
Fixed. That wave of talented prospects is gone.
Shake your Bote
Wait, the Go Cub Goers didnt get their 1000 year reich? P’shaw
Joseph Silva isn’t going to be happy about this.
Who in the world are they paying all that salary too?!?
Heyward, Darvish, Lester, and Kimbrel.
Swap two bad contracts for one? Orioles take Darbish and Heyward, Cubs take Chris Davis and a prospect?
Where would the Cubs play Davis though? Not a bad thought, just seems an imperfect match.
just DFA him right after the trade.
You wouldn’t be getting a prospect back, you’d have to send money to cover Heyward and Darvish’s contracts
The Orioles take on $98M more in salary and THEY are the team giving up a prospect in that trade?
Are they gonna release davis? He’d have no place to play. The cubs already have the best 1B in the NL. Heyward isnt a bad contract. he had a great year this year.
2 war & 770 OPS is great? How?
Cubs traded for Freeman???
Darvish is far from being a bad contract. Any sane baseball fan would love to have him on a three year contract at $22/yr. that’s what’s left. He pitched at a higher level than that, last year.
Plus he’s wicked twitter troll
Why would Heyward waive his NTC to go to Balt?
Look like the Cubs are truly a one and done. The Rickets family seemed a God send at first now the true colors are showing. Apparently Theo’s reckless spending and poor trades will soon be his legacy. Won the big one I Boston and Chicago, is that enough? Leaves you wanting more in both towns!
The Ricketts flat out refuse to give theo money. they have plenty to spend. With no salary cap. Theres literally no reason at all why they ca t re-sign castellanos a starter and 3 high profile bullpen arms.
Maybe because when Theo did have money to spend, he created a disaster.
There’s not enough chicken and beer for the mayhem Theo would create with additional unlimited spending.
Yeah, there is. It’s the fact that no owner is willing to significantly pay out of his own pocket just to increase payroll. These guys don’t buy baseball teams just for the fun of it. They expect to make a yearly profit.
“The Ricketts flat out refuse to give theo money.”
LOL
According to USA Today, the Cubs had the highest payroll in 2019. They finished 3rd in a weak division.
The owner is fine. The guy running baseball ops is doing the same thing he did in Boston. At some point the endless money runs out, and the large market team cannot continue to overpay free agents and make one-sided trades with small market teams looking to dump salaries. At that point the FO has to make smart, savvy moves. Ops headed up by Theo have proven not to be able to compete that way.
Nailed it.
Ditto
Sure did.
he only one because he gammed the system. any GM with those resources and a 10 year rebuild should easily win. its like a rich person taking free food at the food Bank.
exactly. imagine if the Yankees and Dodgers tanked for 5 years
The Yankees did tank in a way after signing jason Giambi. they did win for 9 years. That’s what killed the Boss no titles for 9 years. He was an owner that didn’t mind spending his money.
Unfortunately tom Ricketts father refuses to spend money. Spending 900 million is nothing to him when he more than triples the profit. And plus he makes 500 mil a year just for being the co founder of Ameritrade
Yankees have like 25 straight seasons of 80+ wins. They’ve only tanked once in that span – at the 2016 deadline when they traded Chapman, Beltran, etc.
Not winning a world series to the Steinbrenners is tanking. George Steinbrenner was all about winning and always winning.
How do you “tank in a way? Get real.
They were trying to win. Tanking is purposefully losing to gain better assets through the draft.
That’s a strange definition of tanking when you still finish with a winning record every year and make the playoffs almost every year. That’s not even a rebuild, just retooling at worst. By that definition, I suppose the Cardinals have also been tanking since they last won a title in 2011.
Ten year rebuild? Haha ok genius. Theo had the Cubs in the NLCS in year 4 (2015) and won it all in year 5 (2016) but hey why let the facts get in the way of your blatantly false narrative.
All this talk about the Rickets family already spending so much is true, but… They also have a new pay to watch network, the highest ticket prices in either league and full house all the time.
They should dump Bryant regardless as he will never re-sign with them. They could dump him, have already dumped 20m from Hamels, 5m from Russell and “could” backload any contract they want.
At this point Epsteins future depends on who he keeps. Castellanos, Schwarber, Baez, Rizzo and Hoerner can generate enough offence to overcome the lack of pitching depth but Descalso, Kemp, and Hayward MUST go regardless of how much of Haywards money they have to eat. If he says goodbye to either Castellanos, Schwarber, Baez, Rizzo or Hoerner then you can say goodbye to Epstein sooner than he may think.
Its so refreshing to see the financial disaster Theo has created when Cubs fans thought they had a guaranteed dynasty. Couldn’t happen to a better fanbase.
Oh don’t worry about it. Every chance they get they’ll remind us about 2016 and that time Schwarber hit the scoreboard in left.
2id your not to knowledgeable so you may want to think first then comment.
Schwarbers scoreboard shot was in right field first of all … you know (oh you do not know) and that happened in the 2015 playoff season not 2016 .. oh how clueless you are ..
No not clueless. Just shows how much I couldn’t care less, but the fact you felt the need to correct me proves my point.
wordonthestreet_ you used to when it should have been too.
It made a legend out of a below average player, which as a Cub fan, makes me sick. The marketing by the Ricketts seems fake and out of touch-they just keep regurgitating the same old stuff.
Mentioned this a couple hours ago in a Rays chat
Rays trade: Brujan, Rovetson, Padlo, Perez
Cubs Trade: Contreras, Happ
Who else are the cubs getting. Contreas gets 3 playes alone. Happ is obviously a throw in. So add kevin Kiermaier and they have their CF. Which would mean no castellanos.
When you factor in framing Contreras is a solid catcher but nowhere near a realmuto or grandal, but he’s cheap with c upontrol.
However this is an awful trade proposal, Happ makes no sense to trade as they have a hole at second and center two positions he plays. Also zunino would have to go back to Chicago due to the Ray’s low payroll.
Brujan, zunino, padlo seems fair but it also doesn’t really save the Cubs money.
Framing is not a stat. No one cares about that. Realmuto isnt half the all around player willson Contreras is.
When you factor in that Contreras is the best offensive catcher who is also cheap and under control and that “framing” is a joke the trade proposal is even worse
Framing is by no means a joke, but it is highly overrated. It’s just as important to have a catcher who can block balls in the dirt and throw out basestealers, and that’s even before touching on his offense.
It’s only 3 yrs of control all, arb years. He’s not a great blocker. And generally bases are stolen on the pitcher, not the catcher unless it’s a Tyler flowers level bad arm. Brujan is a top 30 prospect in baseball. That’s basically 40 mil in surplus value. Zunino is an mlb quality catcher. Contereras is just being vastly overrated for being an above average hitter.
“Who else are the cubs getting. Contreas gets 3 playes alone.”
You really don’t understand how trades work if you’re basing them solely off number of players.
Also, your math is trash. Contreras gets them Brujan/Rovetson/Padlo and Happ gets them Perez. I guess that meets your criteria after all.
I wonder if there would be any interest in the Texas FO to reacquire Darvish. He was beloved in Texas by just about everyone.
If the Cubs and Rangers get deep into Bryant discussions and the Cubs are willing to eat a good portion of Yu’s salary, I think that’s a possibility.
Darvish is the best starter on the Cubs. I don’t get all the trade scenarios for him. The Cubs staff starts with him and Hendricks.
Exactly, there is zero reasons the Cubs want, or should, trade Darvish. He’s a stud.
If the Cubs have to eat a good portion of Yu’s salary, then the deal’s already a wash, since they’d have to use most if not all of the remaining money from Darvish’s 2020 salary they just saved just to replace Darvish in free agency, anyway.
I’d rather have Darvish over every free agent starter in this class not named Cole and Strausburg. His contract is not bad. His first year he was injured the second half of last year he was one of the best pitchers in baseball.
Mentioned this a couple hours ago in a Rays chat
Rays trade: Brujan, Robertson, Perez, Padlo
Cubs trade: Contreras, Happ
And you mentioned it here. Twice.
And you mentioned it here. Twice.
And you mentioned it here. Twice.
How about a trade between the Cubs and Rays? Ideas?
So much for the would be cubs dynasty. Lost in nlcs to mets, won 1 championship, lost in nlcs to dodgers, 1 wildcard game loss, and no playoffs this past season
Trending in the right direction if you ask me =)
ask dodger fans how much they’d love to have one more world championship!
No. Chicago doesn’t have money issues LOL.
Exactly they just dont spend it.
Sounds like an issue.
Major maker team crying poor is a bunch of crap.
I like the Cubs fans for the most part, but you could see this wall coming with Darvish and Heyward being signed and all the young core players reaching free agency at the same time. Remove just one of Heyward or Darvish and it would be possible.
Especially Heyward. That was such an unnecessary move by Theo. I guess he wanted to make a splash move to get the Cubs front and center and instead handcuffed himself.
He was also trying to stick it to a division rival. Fortunately StL didn’t top the Cubs bid.
Fortunately STL traded ATL for him. Eases our pain over Wainwright.
Wasnt it heyward for Shelby Miller straight up. Miller hasn’t exactly worked out at all. Not even sure he still plays.
It was heyward for Shelby Miller and tyrell Jenkins. We traded miller the following deadline with Randall Delgado for ender inciarte, Dansby Swanson and Aaron Blair.
If I’m not mistaken.
Heyward was 26 coming off a monster year. He sadly hasn’t come close to repeating but he’s hardly a bad player
It’s truly ironic the Cubs have to now trade from the core because of inability to draft develop players, especially pitching, after the WS.That and the spending and trading spree Epstein went on has put the Cubs in 85 Bear territory-1and done when it could have been a dynasty. But fans will flock to Wrigley and sing that stupid Go Cubs Go song but most likely not over 74 times in 2020. What a waste.
No one will be that good at home winning 74 games at Wrigley. I’ll take 74 wins at Wrigley and 35-40 on the road. 114 wins isnt bad. They’re the favorites to win the division
Top 10 winning the world series. top 7 winning the pennant. At 10/1 odds
Put that joint down junior.
You’re the one who said the Cubs fans would sing go Cubs go 74 times at Wrigley. I cant help that casinos have them at 10/1 odds to win the world series
I meant 74 wins all year-but be literal. Keep singing and sucking.
I guarantee they will have at least 90 wins.
Is it possible that Theo Epstein isn’t the genius that everyone takes him for?????
Seems like the Cubs have been reeling since that WS victory which while nice, seems to have set them back since.
He was a genuis in the mid 00s. However, the game has passed him by
Well he won it all in 2016 so there goes your theory that the game has passed Theo by since the mid 00’s
Oh boy you think the Cubs are going 74-7 at home!! I do not think that will even be close even if they signed Cole and Rendon. But hey you have your own opinion.
Shhhhh. Dont reveal it’s stupid. They really dont know
No they don’t. Use the 55mil available to sign players. They are 40 mil under the threshold tax anyway. They have one of the highest payrolls but they dont spend any money
Did you read? Even if they can, the Cubs were never going to spend $55 million. If they spent at last year’s levels, they could spend about $30 million. Unfortunately, it looks like Theo is under orders to get under the lowest luxury tax line.
That’s because the ricketts have proven to be very cheap
One thing about the rich …
They never miss a chance to add to the pile.
You’re really underestimating how much all those luxury taxes add up if you don’t get back below the line every once in a while.
They reset every year.
no, they compound. the tax is greater each year you are over, and it becomes more than monetary penalties after a few years.
With arb raises they are already going to be over the threshold. And as we know the threshold is a hard cap and owners face serious ramifications if they go over. Theo has created a mess that puts Ricketts in a dire situation.
I dunno where you are getting your info, but at this moment, the Cubs are $1.7M over the tax.
No facts here …. silly!
Looking for the report that mentioned the hypothetical trade. Yankees send Stanton, Happ, Andujar and Frazier. Yankees get Lester, Heyward, Chatwood and Caritini or Schwarber Essentially with buy outs from Lester and vesting options and bonuses bla bla Cubs get under the cap (still trading Stanton for Heyward meh also Stanton has a NTC) Yankees get a very expensive swing man in Chatwood and replace Happ for an expensive Lester and a back up catcher or a LF DH and get rid of Giancarlo. What do you guys think would you want it as a Cubs fan or Yankee fan?
I’d tell you to turn off your PS4.
No one is taking on Stanton contract of $30 mill a year with all those years still
The thing is for luxury tax it cost 25 per season hence the 325/13. But Heyward gone and his 20+ mil gone, Lester is owed 20+ for tax purposes he gets abou 25.8 and a 10 mil buyout Chatwood has about 12 mil to about let say Kyle Shawarber is added on a raise from arb let say adds up tp 65.5. Happ and Stanton add up to 42 add on Frazier and Andujar making nothing.
one team has already taken it, and this is the same team that is offering Cole bonkers money. to put Stanton in the category of Davis and Pujols is crazy. anyone besides those two is tradable at the right price. wolnt happen, but its still possible.
As a Yankee fan I wouldn’t want it. Trading away too much upside for bad contracts for guys who have no upside (except Caratini).
I think the Cubs turn around and are more willing trade Bryant, even though Andujar hasn’t had a defensive shot yet.
Joke of a trade scenario
I want some of what “n13gmlb is smoking.
You fangirls hide behind your screens its cute. Seems like you can’t read, this site is great but a lot of the users are trash. Get a life and get out of your mom’s house.
“ They have one of the highest payrolls but they dont spend any money“
???
Theo is the most over rated exec in baseball. He put them in this position with multiple questionable moves.
agreed
Yeah, all he does is win WS rings! That’s so overrated!
Is that all he does?
With the Cubs it supposed to build a ‘dynasty’ according to fans and the media. He can’t ride 2016s coattails anymore.
Sure he can. Championship props never die.
Then Ricketts shoukd hold Theo accountable and make a change. That is on Ricketts
You might want to re-assess your username TheoEpstienHOF ROTFL!!!!
Why? It’s guaranteed! Just like Sox sad ballpark.
Good one! Go Cubs!
Any GM can win with that much payroll. But the secret is to sustain success which clearly he’s a failure.
“Any GM can win with that much payroll.”
Simply not true. You can buy better odds but you can’t buy a WS. Period.
Good lord you really don’t know anything about baseball other than they have a team in St. Louis do you?
Oh really … any GM can win with a large payroll … hhmmm … but many do not and most do not
It’s much easier with a large payroll than with a small payroll for all of you nut cases.
But that is not what you said themed! You said anyone can win with a large payroll. I showed that not to be true and it appears you agree. The fact you threw in an insult just shoes that your being wrong stings!
credit where it’s due, but one ring doesnt make a GM a wizard. he’s made some good moves, but if you ask me, a lot were the obvious move to make, or he simply got lucky.
Oh … well … amk3510 … bad news for you … Theo has 3 WS rings on his resume!!! Oh how is is overrated you say!! Laughing right at you.
Love how Cubs fans will die on Theo’s hill than admit his tenure has been awful after 2016. I guess we have to spell it out for you that he is over rated based on his Cubs tenure not Boston (which was almost a decade ago now). Heyward, Quintana, Darvish, Chatwalk, Gleyber Torres for a rental, Descalso, Morrow, Cisek, Kimbrel. But sure Theo is great and could do no wrong!
Heyward, Caratini and Bryant for Inciarte, Flowers and Riley? Who says no?
Everyone.
Awful for both sides.
Braves
Everyone. Lol. No one wants inciaarte. He’d be a downgrade. A major downgrade
What a terrible trade idea. It really helps no one
The cubs would be significantly worse and the Braves would never add that much payroll
Cubs being absolute idiots this offseason
Have them call the Red Sox for advice on cutting payroll …. LOL
Ok, Almora & Happ May be “full-time split” OF’s?
I think in baseball they call that a platoon.
Like, I work full-time, I just split my hours with someone else…??
As a Mets fan I would trade for W.Contreras and Hendricks
It seems to me that Kris Bryant would also make a world of sense at 3B in Queens. What do the Mets have that the Cubs would want in a trade for any of these players knowing that both teams want to be competitive in 2020 while also being wary of their respective payroll limitations?
The Cubs aren’t taking any of the Mets bad contracts like the Robinson Cano or Yoenis Cespedes deals unless NY is interested in swapping them for Jason Heyward or Yu Darvish. I can’t see a fit in the Mets outfield for yet another left-handed hitter like Heyward or risk taking on a mental midget like Darvish and exposing him to the pressures of the Big Apple.
But you actually have to trade enough value back
The proverbial rock and a hard place.
Kris B to the Dodgers makes a lot of sense for both teams if this is true for the Cubs slashing payroll
Of course, Theo would be looking for the same type of return that the Indians reportedly want for another super star infielder with two years of arbitration control remaining, Francisco Lindor. That means a package going back to the Cubs including one of 2B Gavin Lux or RF/CF Alex Verdugo.
The timing of this is a bit suspicious–right before the winter meetings. I can only surmise, as the family that owns the Cubs probably lose $6 million (their penalty for “overspending”) in between the seats of their cars, one almost thinks that the other owners are going to call them on the carpet for bumping up against the salary cap, or whatever we’re calling it now…
Cubs are not looking for prospects from a Bryant or Contreras trade. They want MLB-ready young pitching. As in Folty or Fried types from Braves.
And these new-era so-called Cub fans who say the Cubs don’t spend money are delusional. The highest payroll in the league and you don’t spend?
Problem is, and Theo’s to blame, is that they whiffed on pitching development. Because of that shortcoming, they’re using about one-third of their entire payroll to build a rotation.
if ime Atlanta and CHC wants Folty as the center of a Bryant or Contreras trade i take it in a heartbeat. Folty was clearly due for regression after last year, ane may still have enough value before he fully reggresses into a 3/4 at best.
Best the Cubs do is
Tigers take- Heyward, Hoerner, Amaya, and Jansen.
Cubs take Jordan Zimmerman
Why the hell would they do that?
Theo would be fired if he ever did that trade!
Theo would fire himself
LOL. If you want to stop the laughs the Tigers better throw Matthew Boyd into that deal or at least swap him out for Zimmerman.
Lol. Ok
How about Tigers take Bote & Almora and Cubs get Boyd & anyone else with opposing thumbs?
With New Ownership on the verge of taking over in Flushing, I would love to see a bold, all in move to compete in 2020. Plus with the Cubs need to shed payroll, stay competitive & I’m sure look towards the future as well. This would be my offer:
Mets get: Kris Bryant, Willson Contreras & Javier Baez
Cubs get: J.D. Davis(5 yrs of control), Amed Rosario(4 yrs of control), Wilson Ramos(1yr left), Andres Gimenez, Francisco Alvarez, Mark Vientos, David Peterson & Shervyen Newton
I wouldn’t be against adding Dom Smith to this deal as well but I just don’t see where he would fit in the Cubs defensive alignment.
Mets clearly go all in with this trade, don’t need to go into details there. The Cubs however really get everything they want done here. They shed a lot of payroll from their 2020 roster, they will remain somewhat competitive in 2020 with Davis, Rosario & Ramos. They also get the immediate building blocks with Davis’s 5 yrs of control, Rosario’s 4 yrs of control plus they get plenty of solid prospects that have decent ceilings & floors. The real prize of this for the Cubs is Alvarez. He’s quickly rising in prospects ranks, is only 18 y/o and has the makings of a future star. Also, with Ramos becoming a free agent after the 2020 season, the Cubs can decide whether Alvarez is ready for the show or they could entertain going after impending free agent J.T. Realmuto.
I think this trade makes sense on both sides but the Mets would need the influence of Steve Cohen to push it through. The Wilpons don’t have the initiative or guys to pull this type of blockbuster off.
Baez is signing long term with the cubs. He’s not going anywhere. They’ll likely lock up Rizzo and Contreras as well they wont have to worry about him for 2 years. Schwarber will be traded for a haul of prospects maybe a 2 for 6 deal. Schwarber and Happ for 3 top prospects and 3 players that help right now .. that wont be until winter meetings 2020
Schwarber wouldn’t even get the Cubs one Top 100 prospect. He is a DH only player & has been vastly overrated his entire career. Secondly, the Cubs may extend Baez & Rizzo but they have clearly stated on many baseball platforms that the Cubs are trying to trade Contreras ad a way to shed salary. Read some articles dude. I get that you’re a Cubs fan and thinking that they can get whatever they want for their players but that’s just not reality.
You are high if you think Schwarber nets a “haul of prospects”. A mid level prospect, maybe a couple of lottery tickets. He is so overrated it’s not even funny
Agreed.
That’s a lot of crap going back to the Cubs for three of MLB’s best overall players at their respective positions all of whom still have 2-3 years of arbitration eligible control available to them. J.D. Davis can hit but has no position to play in Chicago with another defensively challenged slugger already in LF. Wilson Ramos can also hit but absolutely sucks at pitch-framing and handling a pitching staff.
Theo has two years left on his contract. He’s not rebuilding again. He needs to try and win big again knowing he has a limited budget but also a roster primarily composed of players in their prime years. He needs to make some shrewd trades with some of that talent or pray that their new manager and his coaches can do a better just than the departing genius did in maximizing all that talent.
Again, you guys need to SERIOUSLY read other baseball threads & platforms. This has NOTHING to do with the players talent levels, clearly those Cubs players are superior to the Mets. It’s all about the money here. Byrant, Baez & Contreras are going to make a combined $32.3 million in 2020 while Davis, Rosario & Ramos will combine for $11.4 million. So the Cubs would be shedding almost $21 million from their payroll, staying under the luxury tax threshold, staying competitive & replenishing one of the worst farm systems in all of MLB. Look it up, the Mets farm system is ranked between 13th-18th while the Cubs are ranked between 27th-30th. It’s a good trade if the Cubs are serious about shedding payroll, maintaining their ability to contend and improve their prospects ranks.
I also read articles in the past that Bryce Harper was a shoe in to be with the yankees, Trout was going to be a philly,
This year not sure if you read the articles here but there were ones that say the mets were at their highest payrol ever last year and that they are trying to shed payroll themselves. There was also an article that stated the mets LOST 60M last few years. The last one is very important for a prospective buyer especially if you are ADDING to that loss. I mean im not sure how many people are buying interests in something that loses 90M+
I appreciate your idea and Zeal but the Mets biggest issue is the depth and if i recollect the above 3 have a decent injury history so you are even weakening the depth of the team with all those pieces moving away. Remember the reason Davis was so valuable was because he was covering for a injuries all over the place and was able to receive regular playing time (Frazier, Cano, Lowrie, Cespedes etc etc). Also with this trade where does McNeil one of your more popular and productive players get regular time?
That’s a bunch of fair thoughts. And you are not wrong at all. But I am of the belief that you have to trade something of value to get something of value. I guess that’s where I was trying to get at but failed. Yes, if the two teams completed the proposal I made, the Cubs farm system would dramatically improve and the Mets would definitely drop to probably a bottom five.
As for McNeil, if the Mets wanted to get even more creative, they could package Nimmo with say Dom Smith to a team desperate for young, controllable position players that are major league ready and try to get a decent SP in return or maybe even a really good bullpen arm. By trading Nimmo, it would open up LF for McNeil. Just ideas.
The amount of people here falling over themselves trying to justify billionaires making billions in a non competitive environment is hilarious. The Cubs making extra profit doesn’t improve my viewing experience.
I’ve never understood fans siding with owners over players, or owners over the fanbase, either. These owners are in a very small, but very rich group, to which the vast majority of fans will never belong. Why adamantly defend them justifying putting out an inferior product?
“Why adamantly defend them justifying putting out an inferior product?”
Especially when that justification is that the team might otherwise go into the red. No team is going into the red over a few million in luxury tax dollars. No team. And in fact very few teams are even in jeopardy of spending tax dollars. These arguments are total non-starters. Yet this is what we get.
Does it appear that the Cubs, Brewers, and Cardinals are all taking a step backwards this year? I wouldn’t call it tanking but is sure seems like all three are choosing not to spend money to improve.
Does this open the door for the Reds?
Cards seem to contend every year regardless. Hence 12 seasons in a row with over .500 record.
A .500 record is not necessarily “contending.”
They’ve never lost on purpose. Tanking is for losers.
Stop making Cardinals fans look bad.
He cant help it. Themed is a complete and total loser. Worst commenter on here.
Yes all of last fall when the Cardinals were in first place the only thing I read here is that they still had to play the cubs 7 more times the last 10 days of the season and 4 at the weed covered wall place. How’d that turn out for ya?
The Cubs are saddled with un-tradable long-term commitments and are in baseball purgatory right now. This is nothing new given Theo’s spending history going all the way back to Boston ( Carl Crawford, JD Drew, etc.) They’ve lost every major trade over the last few seasons ( including NOT pursuing Justin Verlander because of cost constraints, instead opting to overpay for Jose Quintana’s “cost certainty”..) Inability to draft & develop players has lead them here too, but instead of changing leadership, they simply shuffle around the front office. Maybe it’s time to trade Theo.. He HAS been traded before….
Yep. Theo’s got two years left with his Cubs contract which makes trading any of their stud players for just prospects highly unlikely. He needs to get the postseason train back on the rails this offseason while also trying to return the Cubs to serious championship contenders. That means some shrewd trades this winter or just praying that some of the Cubs talented young players will max out on their potential better under David Ross and his coaches than what Joe Maddon got out of them with his incessant micro-managing.
Cubs should trade Theo to CA. CA has money to spend and a burning desire for the postseason. Theo can spend money to get to the postseason, quite probably even a WS championship.
Agree, the saint Theo is the problem! His reputation will include taking two franchises down after winning two WS. A mixed legacy at best, not HOF worthy in my book!
CuBz PrInT mOnEy!!!!
You’re late on that one, Priggs, or you just helping Chitown pile on?
Just helping out. Sorry I’m late to the party; some people work weekends.
Nick Williams, Adonis Medina, Jojo Romero & Bryson Stott for Kris Bryant & Jason Heyward. Cubs shed 45mil
If MLB would hear the greivence already I am sure AA would love to take him off their hands to replace JD.
Darvish,Azolay,Marquez to the Jays for Teoscar,Gaviglio. The Jays take on the full Darvish contract. Then proceed to sign Ryu.
Add vlad jr. Instead of those players no ones heard of. He can play SS and Baez back to 2nd.
No I’m not serious but you’re gonna have to do better than that. they need pitching they shouldn’t trade it away.
They need pitching yet are trying to get out of contracts? Why not trade the 33 year old pitcher who has what 4/5 years left
So I’ll play a little unrealistic couch GM here. Would love the Braves to go get KB and WC. I would absolutely love it. I know our starting pitching would need to take the next lvl, but I just wish we’d go get them and then lock at least one of them up for a while if not both. As far as revenue standpoint, it’s not unrealistic although from a historical standpoint it is.
For KB, Ender would make a lot of sense, Austin Riley also… obviously that doesn’t get the deal done. Have to throw in a couple other high end prospects. I’m not expert, but I’d imagine Pache Waters will be the first names, but it wouldn’t be shocking that if Ender and Riley were on the table that the cubs don’t ask for pitching over hitting prospects. So here’s my coach GM moment
KB for Riley Wright Wilson and ender? You can pretty much rotate the 2 pitching prospects with any of our pitching prospects and if he ok with it.
The cubs have willson Contreras. it would be William Contreras they would trade for.
But you don’t know if you’re getting KB for one year or two. That’s the tricky part. It takes MLB forever to answer these questions. Like the Domingo German situation or the Astros situation. The next season is at stake yet MLB plods along as if it weren’t.
Idc if it’s one year or two as a Braves fan. I’d be more concerned with if we can sign him long term somehow. I was operating as if it was 1 year. If it’s 2, then maybe he’s more valuable.
And Wrek, I’m fully aware of the situation. There is no confusion on my part. Lol
The Braves wouldn’t do that. It would be either Wilson or Wright, Ender and a bucketful of lesser prospects.
Yea well I’m the GM in this situation. So they would lol
Look, he’s an incredible talent. It’s gonna take at least 3 solid prospects in return for him. If you add a decent controllable young player like Ender in the mix, your prospects can take a slight high. Ie instead of pache and waters, you get the guys mentioned already. Obviously not a tremendous drop in talent, but still a drop. And I think the cubs need pitching prospects more than hitting. Considering most of there hitters are set. So idk. Just throwing out an idea. I’m sure you’re right, Braves likely never do that. But that’s what it would take to get KB
Whats funny is how we react to this like we are surprised. First off Theo never shows his hand and he always cries poor before making a move. Second do you think the market for Kris Bryant would increase if Theo make a statement they were all in on Rendon? This is called not showing your hand .
Like last year when he “didn’t show his hand and cried poor”, and the proceeded to win the Daniel Descalso sweepstakes?
No, they took on Cole Hammels $20 million dollar option and signed Kimbrel. It wasn’t Theo’s fault Maddon couldn’t motivate his players with a sense of urgency.It also wasn’t Theo’s fault Maddon was anti Lastella. You can’t go out and sign Castellenos unless you move Heyward or Schwarber in a trade.
Idk man. Theo likes to rebuild, spend big, and bail once the money is truly not there for him to spend, sooo. Idk. Not showing hands? Maybe…
They are pretty much over the luxury tax now. The only trade that is significantly going to relieve payroll is Bryant. And trading Bryant makes them worse.
They have Cole Hammels, Addison Russell and Brandon Morrow’s money off the books. Guys like Dave Kaplan called out Theo to spend the money on Kimbrel and now it looks to be another burden on the payroll.
Dave Kaplan? Or guys like Dave Kaplan? Don”t be so vague.
bryzzo buttzzo
Dave Kaplan , Jesse Rogers , David Haugh , Marc Silverman ECT… I can go on and on about the media telling me how cheap the Ricketts family is until I see they are second in baseball for payroll. Don’t blame them because Theo made a few bad signing and over valued his draft picks like Almora,Happ and Schwarber.
I know you think they would have a bunch of flexibility but all arbitration guys jumped like a rocket plus they were already over quite a bit last year. Next year Lester, Quintana and chatwood gone. I’d say just go over twice and give it one last swing. If they fail this year then think about trading the core guys from 16.
Dave Kaplan is an absolute moron, so that makes sense.
Schwarber to As for Pinder and Mengden
Theo to Oakland to break their curse of going like 1-20 in their last couple decades of playoff series. Beane only knows the undervalued, he has no idea how to actually spend money. Theo knows how to spend, and with Billy, they finally unite to finally get the A’s another ring.
Theo knows how to spend? I hope that was sarcasm.
With this mornings report on MLBTR about the Cubs need to clear payroll, I used the Trade Sim to come up with this one. Helps both teams by filling needs.
Cubs get Folty, Riley and B Wilson
Braves get Darvish, Bryant, Happ and 22mil over 4 yrs for Darvish
If my math is somewhat accurate this would help the Cubs clear about 30mil this yr and next, giving them some space to address other needs. Folty gets to go home to Illinois and get a change of scenery, Riley could fill 3B for Bryant, and moving Happ clears space in their OF logjam.
We get a SO pitcher to pair with Hamels, Soroka, Fried. A power middle of the order bat in Bryant and a Happ adds versatility to handle 3B,2B and OF. It’s the type of move that could finish the off season for the Bravesm while giving the Cubs some room to continue.
Seems to wildly favor the Braves.
It some ways yes, but it also puts the Cubs in a better financial spot to address other areas.. I’ve read several reports that have said the Cubs don’t have a lot of flexibility regarding payroll. Also seems like they’re trying for a re-tooling of sorts. Giving them 3 young players and payroll space seems to be from this report just what they’re looking for. I guess it just depends on how much room Theo wants to make.
What about Bryant to the Yankees? Ursehla/Andujar, Garcia, Florial + other guys
Clear payroll for who ?…..Bryant extension?….Baez extension ?…….Rizzo extension ?
lets say both Bryant and Baez are both too rich for the Cubs……you might see a ton of MLB prospects in return in trades…….
Maybe Theo was hoping for two championships at this point and now his job is on the line for the money he spent……Cubs had the talent…….but the players and Maddon failed after 2016.
there is also the package deals that Theo will say,…”you want Baez, you need to take Heyward also !”…….
I don’t believe there is a Castellanos / Cubs reunion……….
Rizzo is the only player not on the trade table….unless someone offer something off the chart !………and Rizzo is a hitting machine at Dodgers Stadium………and well liked by the Dodgers…….
Astros want Contreras……they need to take on Quintana also !……
Rockies love Schwarber……..take his backup, Almora also !…….
a week from now this Cubs roster may look very different……..
Theo has to be blown away before he trades any of his star players !
!
Cubs are gonna stink because of the Heyward and Darvish deals that were both big overpays and too many years. Chatwood was an overpay too.
Darvish deal is no longer that bad. He wasn’t far off from a $22MM pitcher last year. Not worth trading and eating any contract. Keep him.
Darvish was one of the best pitchers in baseball the 2nd half of last year.
The narrative the the Darvish contract is a problem is stale. 82 million over the next 4 years looks very nice.
Chatwood is off the books after this year. Darvish is probably slightly underpaid based off the second half last year and pitcher contracts this offseason. The stinker for the Cubs is Heyward. That hinders them somewhat for the next 4 years.
I’d like to say that it’s funny socialists like S4, Mo and Outlaw want to tell capitalists how they can spend their money, but it isn’t.
If they didn’t have monopolies MLB would be a free market system. But they do, so it isn’t. The fans should get something for not having the option of taking their wallets elsewhere if the owner sucks. Jokers like you want to let them have it both ways. Have a monopoly AND screw the customers.
Giving free monopolies to owners is socialism for owners. So you can take your phony socialism insults and shove ’em where the sun don’t shine, unbrave brave dude.
It’s not an insult, just an observation. And I agree that Baseball shouldn’t have anti-trust exemptions. I’m in favor of Capitalism and Free Enterprise, not just Capitalism.
One and done. See ya Chubs
and Brewers are still trying to get to first base !
Ricketts has gone all P.K. Wrigley
He’s gotta save up for all those 2020 MAGA hats. Amirite?
crazy everyone blames the owners here when its the overrated GM who has dug them this hole. the team is near the luxury tax, how much more should anyone expect them to spend?
Ricketts are crap owners they just sold Daddy’s company for BILLIONS and they only paid 850 million for the cash cow Cubs. If they are worried about luxury tax then sell the team
I wish to cordially invite Chicago baseball fans to change hats.
If you have a family, you can come to the White Sox for family Sundays, 4 tix and 4 hot dogs for $50, parking included. If you are a single lady, you do not share your baseball watching experience with some college kid throwing up in a trash can. If you are a retired person, parking facilities and amenities are provided for any and all special needs.
All that, and we have a really good team.
Families, single ladies, and old people are cool. The rest of them can stay at Wrigley.
Thank you for the championship….. now get out Theo! As a Cubs fan this pisses me off!! 5 years to build the farm and blow it away in 4 years. I’m not giving another nickel to this franchise. $75 for a bleacher seat?? No thanks
I wish more thinking fans would do what you are going to do! I’d like to see an empty Wrigley field for a game sometime as a protest to the way the Cubs have operated! They deserve it!
Brosseau (2B/3B)
Chirinos (low-end #3)
Perez (Backup C)
Brujan (2B/SS, top30 prospects in baseball)
Will get it done for Contreras? Contreras is one of the worst framer in baseball, even worse than that of W. Ramos, while only caught 29%. His value is on bat. Rays can bank on Zunino’s D as a backup whilest fully utilize Contreras RH bat at C/1B/LF. Cubs will have backup MIF in Brosseau who managed serviceable OPS .770. Numbers could improve from pitcher friendly trop to Wrigley. Chirinos can manage 3.60 ERA with 150+ IP. Minimum wage. Perez is LH catcher who will complement Caratini with his .700 OPS and serviceable D. All these players are at minimum wage which is big plus for Cubs. Then Brujan, premium prospect who showed he can handle SS in AFL. Can he manage Cubs SS when Bryant gets moved, Baez at 3B, Hoener/Bote at 2B.
Contreras would need to at least bring back Brandon Lowe, Brendan McKay, and one other top 100 farm piece.
First off the Cubs can cut payroll without “dumping” players with value.
They could get full value for Bryant, Contreras, Baez, Rizzo and Hendricks.
They could still get something useful for Darvish and Quintana due to the lack of pitching available and possible Schwarber.
Total dumps would be Heyward (NTC), Lester, Kimbrel and Chatwood.
Blow it up.
Schwarber to Tampa.
Contreras to Houston.
Bryant to Philadelphia.
Darvish and Happ to Texas.
Lester and Rizzo to Boston.
Almora and Hearn to Pittsburgh.
Quintana and Heyward to Los Angeles Angels.
now lets hear who we got coming back !
How about Quintana to the White Socks? For a top pitching prospect and a slugger? Got just the idea: Carson Fulmer and this blue chipper all the kids are talking about— Dayan Viciedo
Baseball is a business to owners……
Fans see it as a game……
Player see it as how much money can I get !….
Agents see it as how much can I sell someone who are past their prime…..
merchandising……..concessions………marketing………advertising……tv / radio rights……selling stadium name rights………it is all about the money….not who wins a championship ……
big markets will have the fans……..Cubs, Yankees, Mets, Dodgers will all survive if they team hits 100 loses……..it is a cycle………if an owner can dump $90 million in salary and lose five more games in 2020 than in 2019, he still wins…….if he wins five more, he is a great owner……….
it is all about the money and how much an owner can make,,,,,…….not who wins a World Series !
A man that’s gets it.
If I was Mr. Rickets and the Cubs owner. I wouldn’t trust the two headed monster of Theo and Jed with anymore $$ on free agents. Would any sane business owner trust those two guys with spending $$ after some of the disastrous signings recently? Theo and Jed will be moving on in two years. Thanks for the 2016 WS. But a dynasty?
Cubs fan here and completely agree. A lot of fans that don’t understand business think the Cubs should spend a billion dollars a year.
Sorry, it doesn’t work like that. Ricketts has already spent a TON of money and was over the tax threshold. This is on Theo.
I think Ricketts has lost a TON of faith in Theo, because I know I have. Opening up the checkbook would be like giving a 12 year old the keys to the brand new Mercedes.
8/10 moves Theo makes are garbage. Him and Jed won’t be here in two years, and every move Ricketts is making is signaling that.
You don’t want the guy with one foot out the door to be sealing 6, 7, and 8 year contracts.
Pending how this off-season goes, they might have one less person buying their pay channel. They have botched the passed two offseasons. I’m tired of the excuses.
On KB rumors. Braves make the most sense. Cubs want MLB ready talent. Also, Rizzo isn’t going anywhere, he’s the face of the franchise
If this is really the case, what are they waiting for?
What’s taking them so long to trade players away?
It’s almost mid-December now, I just don’t understand what’s holding Theo & Co. up so far this offseason from making a trade. Waiting for teams to call you for a trade is not a strategy, or atleast it’s not a winning strategy.
For Bryant, they likely have to wait for Donaldson to sign. Why trade for Bryant and pay him $45 million’ish for the next 2 years when Donaldson would cost roughly that?
They are waiting for the market to develop
…and the grievance
There’s plenty of trade options out there from what I have read..
Sending braves Bryant and Quintana for a package of Ian Anderson, Kyle Wright, Austin Riley, Drew Waters, maybe William Contreras… Frees up money, gets good young arm’s, future RF in waters, 3rd base replacement in Riley….
Send Contreras to Houston for Kyle Tucker or Forrest Whitley ,,,, or send him to Angels for Jo Adell…
Could try an send Heyward to san Fran, they’ve always had a crush on him..
Make a salary dump to Mariners sending Chatwood and a prospect like Ryan Jensen, Robles or Corey Abbott
There’s moves that could be made to free up dumb money
When Tommy was pitching buying the Cubs to daddy, he told daddy Cubs fans would show up even if the team was bad. I think daddy wants to test that theory. Oh well, at least we got a WS win.
Sounds kinda dumb BUT if the Cubs want to save some money….
Pirates to Cubs: Marte, Kela, Kuhl + B/B- prospect or a small amount of cash ~15$m guaranteed.
Cubs to Pirates: Lester, Happ, Caratini, Mills, Alzolay a ptbnl or international pool nothing exciting. ~38$m guaranteed.
Cubs save ~$23M guaranteed between ’20/21. Get their outfielder, Get a Kuhl who would likely be about as good as Lester was last year unless he doesn’t recover from surgery.. Get a quality arm to fill in for Mills in 2020 in Kela. Plus a prospect that hopefully fits both clubs.
Pirates take on 23M total (~11.5M average) get: an inning eater arm that can reasonably be cut loose in 2021. Players that fit current needs with some control Catcher, third base, pen and a young project arm in Alzolay. If the pirates where to try to similar to to Happ, Caratini and Mills on the open market. it would cost more than 11M/year.
pretty much Marte and Salary relief for Happ, Caratini and Mills. the other pieces are just what ever seems to work.
I’m a pretty big proponent of if there is a marte trade, the cubs are the place to go for young mlb talent… unless they can fleece the Padre’s for quality prospects of course 🙂
Why would the Pirates help a division rival with their reload/rebuild by taking on dead money? What does this achieve for the Pirates in either the near or long term in a competitive division? Love the inspiration, but not much to see here
Pirates to the Cubs, really wouldn’t be helping a rebuild it would be helping them compete while lowering their payroll. Two goals of the Cubs should be competing this year while they still have that pretty darn good core. Between saving ~10m/year in this proposed idea and the free agents going. They save quite a bit.
The real question you should ask is why would the Cubs help the pirates reload.
Omg. Why do people think other teams are just there to help the Cubs. This trade wouldn’t even happen on PS4. Smh
Omg. why can’t people read 😉
#pcMasterRace
But you are wrong. It’s a ridiculous trade proposal
Take one of the OFs from Toronto and deal Chatwood and a prospect. Saves the Cubs about $11-mil’ish if it’s Fisher, McKinney or Alford.
Option 2 is taking at least an OF plus Drury and Giles for Chatwood, Quintana, Bote and a prospect. Saves the Cubs around $15-mil in luxury.
With a new TV contract coming, I see no reason for the Cubs for the Cubs to be cutting payroll. Resetting the CBT, maybe. Cutting it long term, no way.
If any Cubs’ fan think the Cubs are going to trade Darvish right now needs to understand he is here to attract that Japanese market once the Cubs’ network starts up in February! Darvish is one of the most popular Japanese players. People in Japan will purchase the Cubs’ network to watch Darvish pitch every five games. It’s all about the almighty dollar!
I’ve been saying it since the season ended, stuck a fork in this team for at least 2-3 years. They aren’t a World Series contender, and won’t be for at least 3 years. They need to trade at least 2 “core” players and receive an army of young pitching talent. The Ricketts Family has spoken, and they don’t want to spend anymore money. Given how terrible most of Theo’s moves have been, the past 3 years, I can’t really say I blame them. It is what it is.
What is going to make them good in three years? The spiral is heading down! If they are lucky they might get to keep Rizzo and maybe Baez. More cuts will have to come. Most teams can only afford 1,2 or possibly 3 large contracts! In three years Theo will be gone after having his contract non renewed, Jed will probably have to go with him somewhere. To get back to a manageable team salary will take time or a few salary dumps. Winning will not be a thing in Wrigley for sometime I’m afraid. But what the heck, they are used to that!
I have been discussing the Cubs moving Bryant to the Braves for the last year. It makes sense for both the Braves and Cubs. The Braves get Bryant to play third base and bat in the same line up as Albies, Acuna and Freeman. Bryant can put up good numbers batting around them. Meanwhile the Cubs can get a young pitcher and position player from the Braves system to one of their young guys like Riley.
Another hapless winter meeting by the highly over rated and under achieving Chicago Cubs