Alex Speier of The Boston Globe noted on Saturday that the Red Sox were interested in bringing back Travis Shaw before the third baseman signed a one-year, $4MM deal with the Jays. Boston wasn’t prepared to make Shaw an offer without first moving salary via trade, so the corner infielder went elsewhere in the division, Speier says. We heard during Shaw’s brief time on the open market that as many as 14 teams were interested in acquiring his services, so the real takeaway seems to be just how tightly Boston may be constricted by payroll this winter. It’s also been widely understood that CBT concerns would limit the club in 2020, but an aversion to bringing in a player on even a $4MM deal may signal, by my own speculation, that the club may well be limited to minor league deals or near-minimum guarantees from here until camp breaks.
Two more items from around the game…
- In the same piece, Speier penned a thoughtful exploration of the changing shape of roster construction around the game. Although emphasis has increasingly been placed on young, cost-controlled talent in recent years, especially in the wake of the Cubs’ and Astros’ successful full-scale rebuilding efforts, several young superstars have ended up on the trade block this winter. Mookie Betts, Carlos Correa, and Francisco Lindor have all been involved in trade rumors to varying degrees, a development that may have been unthinkable when those players broke into the game just a few years ago. As Speier puts it, “the openness of recent title contenders to such drastic roster shakeups reflects a late stage in the development of homegrown cores in an era where teams are treating the luxury tax as a major constraint.”
Building teams around waves of young talent may only leave cost-conscious teams with a three-year window of payroll flexibility, as collective arb raises can trigger payroll bumps in the tens of millions in a single offseasons. If, as most teams built around youth movements have done, those early minimum-salary seasons are supplemented by major free agent signings, then the payroll crunch gets all the more severe by year four or five of a team’s window. The circumvention around this, of course, is the early-career extension, which, as Speier points out, the Sox used to a happy end with Dustin Pedroia and Jon Lester toward the end of the last decade; it’s fair to wonder whether the current “crunch” facing several competitive teams is only going to make early extensions all the more conventional. Two teams currently built around young talent–Seattle and Atlanta—come to mind as two examples of clubs that may be trying to get ahead of the curve in that regard. - The Indians received a fair amount of criticism in the wake of the Corey Kluber trade—with many naysayers bemoaning the club’s $40MM-plus payroll drop since 2017. However, as Paul Hoynes of Cleveland.com puts it, perhaps the Tribe has earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to how they approach putting together a pitching staff. While giant-dollar deals for free agent pitchers have been issued liberally this winter, Cleveland will head into the 2019 season with a largely near-minimum staff. While some may read the club’s decision to unload Trevor Bauer and Corey Kluber as a sign of mere cheapness, Hoynes notes that the team received the bulk of its 2019 starts (113) from pitchers making the major-league minimum ($550k) or just over it—and to generally great success. With seven straight winning seasons built mainly around on-the-cheap pitching acquisitions, the Indians may simply be placing greater faith in their player development abilities than anything else. By my own addition, it may serve to remember that Kluber and Bauer were both generally unproven youngsters when they first arrived in Cleveland.
Got it again Damn Braves shoulda got Kluber
Stop embarrassing us
Ship already sailed. It’s too late.
Is this BigPapi4evr version 2?
Every team should feel embarrassed that they didn’t get a better package together to gain Corey Kubler
“several young superstars have ended up on the trade block this winter.”
But none have been traded.
Dynamite drop in, Monty
It’s a bold strategy Cotton
Billionaires just hate to pay taxes not matter what kind…..
The luxury tax also cost teams in the draft. Nationals only got a 4th round supplemental pick for Harper. It is a business and you don’t get to be rich by making poor decisions.
@ williemaysfield;
With the money the Nationals saved on Harper, they were able to sign Corbin, Howie, Adams; as well as take on salary in trade to bolster their bullpen during the stretch run.
And it still cost them less then it would have to resign Harper…..
And they have money left over to pay the higher salaries for their new core – Turner, Soto, Robles, Stras, etc.
And they won a championship.
Losing Rendon hurts, but again that money can be used for multipe young players in the next few years.
Wonder how this will play out in the next CBA as it’s not good long term if bigger market championship caliber teams can’t keep their roster together. For Boston to shop Betts and Houston to market Correa is really unprecedented. If the CBA doesn’t change, it will affect the Yankees either when or after they extend/try to extend a Judge. Same thing with the Dodgers and Bellinger. Also how much more room do the Phillies and Angels have? Another signing and they’ll likely be pushing the payroll envelope.
@ deweybelongsinthehall;
I suspect that you think the cap will be lifted in the new CBA.
Your point is that major market teams now have the same considerations as small and mid-market teams…..and that’s not fair to the large market teams.
Problem is – there are far more small and mid-market team owners then there are large market team owners. Did you see any small or lower mid-market teams bidding for this years prime free agents?….or last years?….or the year before that?
So if the players want a higher ceiling regarding the luxury tax, then there’s going to have to be more revenue sharing.
Playing field needs to be leveled.
Watch.
Vandals. I couldn’t agree more. The fact that big market clubs under current rules can’t bid on players eventually has to hurt the union but all clubs need to be able to grow and sustain a team, that’s why I’ve proposed a system that favors a team keeping their own talent (50% salary after year five counts against the tax). It’s been a boon than the a Padres have been able to get involved but that’s an exception. The Reds and White Sox this year have spent but not for the truly great player. I understand your point though. What was special 25 years or so ago in the NFL was when Green Bay signed Reggie White. Such could never take place in baseball.
Uh, so do non-billionaires.
How can you call Pedroia’s extension a “happy end”?
Jorge..the writer is talking about Pedey’s 2008 extension for 6 years at 30 million dollars…which most certainly was a bargain (he was worth twice that…which is why I don’t get too worked up over his 110 milliion dollar extension in 2013).
People overreact with Pedie which was undervalued when it was signed. He got hurt and if it weren’t for all the other contracts the team gave out during Sherington and DD’s time, Pedie’s wouldn’t be noticed.
My thing about Pedroia’s contract was only about length. I was fine with the yearly salary, but knew that kind of commitment for someone who played the way he did (past tense intentional) was a grave error. And for once I was right.
The problem wasn’t with how pedroia played.
The problem WAS with how machado played.
Stop crying about Machado. Peddie was breaking down before that.
And for once I was right.
——————————-
Only because Machado is a cheap-shot artist.
I don’t know that Seattle is the best example to use
Hoynes actually said something that makes sense.
But it was probably full of his usual grammatical errors when he did it.
Most people that follow the Indians to any degree on here see it as well (including you).
The Indians starting pitching staff going into 2020 (as Carlos Carrasco will begin in the bullpen to regain his strength) has 5 guys combined that are making less then 40% of what the Yankees are paying Gerrit Cole. Not only does Cole pitch once every 5 days, but it can be argued that the Indians starting 5 are better then the Yankees starting 5 – with each of the Yankees other 4 pitchers very possibly making more in 2020 salary then the Indians starting staff combined.
The Indians FO has learned from the Rays. It’s not who a team overpays to sign in free agency or overpays in trade to get a high-salary established player – it’s how teams can develop players they have the rights to. Which is why what is so clear during the silly off-season winds up being turned upside down by late-May, early-June each year.
It’s all about development.
All teams (and individual players working with private instructors during the off-season) have been focused on that for over 5 years now. Difficult for the media to cover and the fans to keep up with, so everyone just looks at last years statistics and comes up with bogus groupthink narratives.
Carrasco will most certainly not start the season in the BP. He’ll be in the rotation from the get go.
This article is senseless. It talks about the expensive FA pitching then seems to suggest getting little in return for Kluber was a good idea. Well, it wasn’t and they should have given the market for SP time to develop and Kluber the opportunity to reestablish some value.. They didn’t do that because they were most interested in dumping Kluber’s salary.
Clearly the Indians have SP depth to cover the loss of Kluber, but not as effectively should he regain a good portion of his form. The money saved by trading him can’t be put to good use because there isn’t much left in FA, which the Indians don’t really partake in anyway. The return pieces aren’t likely to sway results one way or the other. Maybe it will turn out to be a great move, but for now it was clearly a salary dump.
The Indians have learned from the Rays? Is that why the Rays are hiring coaches previously on the Indian’s staff?
@ cdav45;
Last I heard, the Indians have said that Carrasco will start the year in the bullpen.
The Indians learned from the Rays 5 years ago. The teams often make trades together. Coaches, instructors, and players also move from one organization to the other as their philosophies are so similar. Rays manager was Indians bullpen coach.
Under Shapiro the Indians tried to mimic the A’s as he and Billy Beane talked a lot. The Rays under Friedman took Moneyball in a different direction, and the Indians under Antonetti have leaned that way – as have most MLB teams (the Rays influence has become the most prevalent in MLB). In fact, Moneyball slowly faded away as Beane found he’d overused statistics both with individual players and in strategies (don’t bunt, don’t try to steal, etc.). If you think I’m making this up, try reading some recent books on MLB FO strategies, as well as an excellent book on the Rays………
‘The Extra 2%: How Wall Street Strategies Took a Major League Baseball Team from Worst to First’ by Jonah Keri and Mark Cuban.
A classic book. Came out in 2011 about the Rays and the 2008 season. Most teams are now using its theories at least to some degree.
There hasn’t been a single time that I’ve seen suggesting Carrasco will start the season in the BP. Quite the opposite in fact.
“President of baseball operations Chris Antonetti said last week that as of right now, the Indians are planning for Carrasco to come back and be an anchor in their starting rotation.
“We have no reason to think otherwise, but obviously we’ll stay in close contact with Carlos and his caregivers to make sure nothing changes,” Antonetti said.”
Kluber is making 17.75 million a year for 2 years, and is in a situation where he had lost so much on all his pitches that he was pitching to a 5.80 ERA to start 2019. Then the two injuries happened, one a fluke and one a little alarming for a pitcher north of 33 years old.
With all that in mind, start looking at the FA signings. Kluber likely lines up best with Bumgarner, who managed a 17 million AAV. Kuechel is similarly an once Ace who has seen heavy regression, and he got 18.3 AAV. And Kluber is a few years older than both of those players
Those two signings show that Kluber is making his current market value. And that would mean teams were being asked to pay FA market price in salary plus surrender serious players on top of it. Realistically, who would be dumb enough to do that?
No one, the answer is no one.
Holding onto him in hopes that his pitch velocity and movement start coming back is a 17.75 million dollar gamble that maybe a team like Texas can take, but the Indians and many other clubs can not afford to make.
If it were just the FB losing speed, okay, maybe its easier to take the gamble. But we are talking every single pitch he threw losing both speed and movement. That, from a 34 year old, and at full market salary value, is not a valuable commodity with safe future odds on production.
His value is no where near where some people are putting it, and the likelihood his career is basically over is higher than people realize. Ideally he can regain form, but it’s a massive AAV gamble in hopes he does
Your argument would hold more weight had the Indians been a CBT paying team year in and out.
Let’s say it was the yankees making that trade. We’d expect that if the savings weren’t spent this year, well, oh well. Next year they once again have more revenue than they can spend in 2021.
But this is cleveland. They don’t earn 600 a year. They don’t spend 200+m a season on payroll.
Why can’t kluber’s money sit in the bank and if, for example, payroll was going to average 150m in 2020 & 2021 (300 total) why can’t it be 130m in 2020 and 170 in 2021? (Still 300 total over 2 years?)
The numbers are made-up, but, the argument remains the same. When an under CBT team bankrolls money, it can spend NEXT season.
Now if your owner/gm aren’t willing to reinvest, thays a different problem and not one with the trade.
(Btw, elder pitcher with broken bone in the throwing arm? No guarantee what ANYONE gets out of him in this one season. Oblique strain not as big a deal.)
Good move to trade, just need to eventually reinvest that money
the Extra 2% is a great short read for any baseball fan. Ray’s Up
Hoynes parrots whatever crap the front office feeds him. He almost as bad as Mary Kay. The Tribe took a massively inferior offer to send Kluber to Texas as a favor, because he is from Coppell/DFW. That is a fact.
You really think Cleveland made a bad move as a favor to a player?
Or he just doesn’t have any value
He has no credibility in my book.
but have the Indians been back to the WS since 2017 either? nope.
Neither have the Cubs.
1948!
Really? They haven’t made the World Series since 2017? They could bump payroll over $200 million and miss the playoffs yet alone World Series.
Hmmmm……2016?
im just saying in reference to the “payroll drop since 2017”
But your comment says otherwise, inferring they went in ‘17.
I know……grammar.
26 teams have not been to the WS since 2017.
but to say that spending less is working out for them makes no sense if they arent measuring up to their 2016 success.
They won 94 in 2016. They’ve averaged 95..3 wins since then. You can’t measure success by the sole criteria of the WS. By some measures, they were the best team in BB in 2017. But that doesn’t mean that you cannot lose a short series to a nearly as good team.
I hope they trade Mookie soon, n get back quality too which I know Bloom will seek. But The Brockstar needs to get back to Boston!
Pedroia did not ask for this injury n considering what a terrific player he’s been all these yrs, I just hope he’s ok. N the Brockstar returns.
Man, chill out with this Brockstar idolizing already!
Your new GM already made his decision and its not in your favor!
It’s a harmless manifestation of the feelings many fans have towards Holt.
As far as the premise of what was reported here, explain how there wasn’t 4m for Shaw, BUT there was enough for a 3m+incentives deal for one useless scrub has been plus another 6m for another relatively overpay on a substandard dumpster pitcher.
Maybe ownership saw the junk moves bloom was making and said no more reclamation waste spending u til a trade happens to free up payroll? Who knows.
Rocky he was too late pulling the trigger on Shaw, I like him too, but I want the Brockstar bk!
and what is it about the letter N rather than using the word and? Did you save that much time?
So I’ve heard that the Indians accepting nothing for Kluber was part them being cheap and part them agreeing to do him a solid by sending him home.
He grew up right next to Arlington, which is why the Tribe took the Rangers offer.
Not sure if I admire Cleveland’s Front Office for doing that, or am disgusted by their ownership’s needless penny-pinching. Nah, I can’t stand their ownership in spite of how good the front office does their job.
offering a discount on a traded player simply because the trade will be “sending them home” is bad business when said player is a significant asset.
Well, when your ownership tells you that you must cut $50 million in payroll, no matter what the consequences, because their minority owner put his stake back onto the team, and your 2nd highest paid player was an underpaid warrior for you for his entire career, wouldn’t you do him a favor?
I would. Dolan is a joke. Make no mistake – Lindor and Santana are both gone this year too.
Dolan is a joke.
————————
Cleveland has averaged 91+ wins over the past 7 years. How many teams have had that much success, especially small market teams?
Didn’t know that about Kluber, but it fits the Indians MO.
Might be “bad business” but it’s one reason why almost all players that leave the Indians have nothing bad to say about them. They always treat players respectfully, and expect the same back. During the All-Star game CC Sabathia and many of the Indians players talked about how classy the organization is.
A few years ago the Indians had a terrific backup infielder – Mike Aviles. A number of teams wanted him. The Indians had other guys that could play better for less salary. One of Aviles’ young daughters had become afflicted with cancer, and was going through long-term treatment at the Cleveland Clinic. Antonetti and the Indians refused to even consider trading him because of that, until she was done with treatment a year or so later.
I don’t care for the owner as well – but only because they’re cash poor. Nevertheless, they treat all their employees – not just the players – as well as possible (not all employees are angels or competent). It’s the main reason why when Francona was fired from the Red Sox and publicly used as a punching bag by the classless ownership and FO for their lousy moves (he’d won them their elusive WS), Tito turned down numerous offers from far better teams at the time, and elected to go with the Indians – a team that was a .500 club at best and going in circles for years. What he has done with and for that team is remarkable – no doubt in my mind that he’s been the best manager in MLB for years now. Probably the main reason I bother following them.
Good points Vandals. If this is what Kluber wanted then I’m happy for him. He certainly deserves it after providing the Indian’s franchise with exceptional, cheap performance year after year. If they need to cut salary then fine, just be upfront and honest about it. Don’t try to sell me that the market was deflated and this was the best deal they could get because if that was truly the case then they should have kept him. Based on the FA SP that signed this off season, I find it hard to believe. What I do believe is that the Rangers have dramatically improved their rotation and we’ll be extremely lucky if one of Plesac, Civale, or even Carrasco can pitch at Kluber’s level in 2020. Weird, injury shortened, SSS 2019 be damned.
Don’t be ridiculous. I know you and every other butt-hurt, moanin’ & groanin’ fan in Cleveland loves to complain about losing another Cy Young Award winner “for nothin'” but it just sounds like sour grapes because you can’t be bothered to analyze anything with any sense of perspective. You are so consumed with bitterness toward an ownership that has given you the fifth best record in baseball over the last seven years (and the only small market of the five) all because they haven’t won you the precious ring you feel you so richly deserve.
Let’s take inventory: the trade is now Kluber for DeShields, Clase, Cesar Hernandez and $7.5 million.. And undoubtedly the rest of that money will go for an outfielder. Chances are quite good that the cumulative WAR the Tribe will reap in this trade will be in excess of what Corey Kluber gives the Rangers, and with FAR less risk.
But go ahead, keep grousing that the glass is 7/8 empty at Carneigie and Ontario while the rest of us have another fun Indian summer.
No, it’s not. They could have had Hernandez and Kluber. Or Hernandez and a better package. I’ve seen you post a million times trying to defend this trade. If the market was that bad for him, they should have kept him. Instead what we’re going to see is him tear it up in the first half and Texas getting a better return for him when they’re sellers at the deadline. You’ll argue and disagree which is fine. One day you’ll be just as pissed off as the rest of us when you see it all unfold.
Wrong. I won’t be ticked off, because I understand the risks and the circumstances surrounding this trade, which you clearly do not.
None of this will keep me from saying you were right and I was wrong if Kluber “tears it up” and the Rangers make some sort of great trade at the deadline (which they won’t because if he “tears it up,” they’ll be in a wildcard race at the very least).
But as far as the trade goes, like the trade of Lee and Sabathia, which I’m sure you also complained about, it takes a few years to figure out winners and losers does it not? And just like people laughed at me when I said Carlos Carrasco would have a better career than Cliff Lee from the time the trade was made, I can assure you on the dollar/WAR continuum, Emmanuel Clase will achieve more for the Tribe than Corey Kluber will from here on out, not to mention how the dollars saved will be reallocated.
It’s a complex, messy thing, making kneejerk reactions to trades, isn’t it? So why don’t we try something different? Like maybe waiting to see what happens first?
WTF are you talking about? I’m not one to rip on the Dolan’s and I think MC and CA make up one of the finest FO in baseball. The only lack of analyzing lays at your feet crybaby. You call judging the worth of a multiple CY winner on 35 IP and a broken arm “perspective”? You must be some kind of special analytical expert.
Is Hernandez being paid from the $13.5M saved by not picking up Kipnis’ option or the $14M by trading Kluber? Or maybe it was paid by no longer having Salazar, Otero, Cole, Clippard, and Goody contracts. Your analytics suck!
“The rest of the money will undoubtedly go for an outfielder”? Which OF oh enlightened one? I can’t wait to here this insightful, well thought out explanation of historical proportions.
The chances are quite good that the quality of our SP depth has taken a serious hit and the bigger risk is thinking that Civale won’t regress, Plesac’s regression will reversed, and that Plutko doesn’t have to pitch many innings. Only a complete moron would think that Delino DeShields Jr and a BP prospect will provide more WAR than Kluber. Even if he isn’t the Kluber of old, he’ll likely provide close to 200 IP of 3.8-4.2 ERA. It was a salary dump of the purest.
Just to clarify your stupid rant. This would be the first CY winner to trade away for nothing. All the others brought in hauls and they weren’t nearly as good as Kluber has been. Hell, the return from Bauer far outweighs the return for Kluber.
If the market was that bad for him, they should have kept him
————————————————–
For what reason? Cleveland’s #5 SP is likely Plesac. One of the things that you need to remember is that Kluber was pretty bad even before he got injured. Some of it was bad luck, but FG still predicts an ERA of slightly over 4.00.
I’d rather have Kluber over Plesac, but I’d rather have Plesac, Case & $17M in spending money, and imo, that’s a no-brainer.
@ cdav45
Yeah, yeah, yeah….and every organization in baseball passed on the guy because of the risk involved. Which you completely ignore. If other teams only wanted to give up low level prospects for a question mark costing $17.5 million, then your insistence we should have gotten more is really difficult to justify. As is any evidence of the Tribe’s front office incompetence.
And while I agree that Clase is unlikely to exceed Kluber’s WAR for 2020, I have no doubt that six years of Clase at the minimum will exceed the value of Kluber over the next two at $35 million. That was my point, which seems to have flown completely over your head.
If it was solely about pinching pennies they decline the option on Kluber. So by opting in and trading him they basically got a young reliever that throws gas and could be a huge bullpen piece moving forward, and Deshields yet another half-@ssed OF. So from that aspect I’m ok, though still think they severely undersold. Especially when fathead Haynes says it’s because of the top deals pitchers are getting – to me that would suggest they sold high and they obviously didn’t.
People are ignoring the facts regarding Klubers situation.
The other teams were not offering up better packages for a reason. Kluber was making full market value as a 34 year old with extreme red flags in his ability. His value was no where near what many fans seem to think it is, and the gamble on him recovering is much higher than anyone ever mentions.
Some folks just don’t understand the full scope of the trade. Probably even more so since they never heard of Clase. It’s a small sample, but he had a great year, and throws 100+.
But it is never as simple as Kluber for Clase. It is 1+ year of Kluber for 6 years of Clase, plus $18M. With a team that has 5 legit SPs, that $19M goes a long way to filling other holes.
@JoeBrady
Bingo!
I do not want to hear about the Red Sox anymore about cutting back payroll. They had better not trade Betts because they are not going to get anywhere near his value in a trade. Price I could are less about because of his imbecilic attitude. The Red Sox problem is their inability to develop starting pitching! That is their problem. On another note, Pedroia has played what 9 games in two years? He is done and the team needs to give him an injured settlement and retire him already!
He is unfortunately finished and is just hanging on to get paid that ridiculous contract he has.
It’s wicked annoying. All of it. When can we get rid of these guys? Just send Price and Betts to the Dodgers for nothing but a couple solid prospects and straight up salary relief. Then tell Pedroria to either play out his injury or retire.
As a RS fan, assuming the price is right, I hope they move Betts. We need more prospects in the pipeline. And if you are concerned about our inability to develop SPs, then maybe trading for someone else’s SP prospects is the solution.
In any case, the best chance of retaining Betts, in the long run, is to trade him now, get under the cap, and re-sign him after 2020.
Hey Joe-He’s not coming home. Get past it. They may get a good prospect or two, however he’s just a short term rental at this point, And if John Henry fattens up the deal with BAD contracts like Evo, Price$ or $ale then there are mediocre prospects coming back to Pawtucket.
Thats actually not a bad idea given how empty their minor league system is after the Trader Dave talent clearance sales.
If he has already made up his mind to leave, all the more reason to trade him.
Can’t even afford to sign a player for 4 million. Well Sox fans, you’ll always have 2018 to dream on.
Edit-2018, 2013, 2007, and 2004.
This is the John Henry Express. With stops at Fenway and the basement. Oh, wait a minute, Filenes is closed. LOL
Fine by me. I’d rather get a WSC sweatshirt every 4 years, than to have 16 shirts saying ‘we played .550’.
They will always have the 4 championships this century not just 2018. No team has more.
Welcome to B Grade Tampa Bay Baseball. Sign high potential guys at cheaper money. Hopefully you catch lightning in a bottle. We have an iffy closer and set up guys, no first baseman, a second baseman who should have retired two years ago. I do not want to hear about how Betts and the money. We have the money! David Price I could give a dam about with his lousy attitude and special elbow along with the disrespect he showed to Dennis Eckersley!